WEBVTT
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00:00:12.640Hello and welcome to the Integrators Voice podcast.
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00:00:16.399I'm your host, Stuart Burgess, and with me as always is my co-host, Mr.
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00:00:17.199Simon Gregory.
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00:00:17.920Simon, how are you?
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00:00:18.800Good morning, Stuart.
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00:00:19.920Yeah, I'm very well, thank you.
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00:00:20.879The sun is shining.
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00:00:22.800Uh it's the end of uh September.
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00:00:25.199I can't believe it's October next next week.
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00:00:26.719I know, it's unbelievable.
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00:00:38.640I was just sending out some bits and pieces this morning to the inside CI advertisers, and I'm already saying like October and like you know, let's get the advertising assets ready for October.
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00:00:47.439And although the Christmas movies have started on Sky Movies, I can't believe that we are officially getting close to a Christmas stroke autumnal month.
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00:00:50.479But uh, but today but we have a we have a guest today, Simon.
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00:00:53.200Who who have we got on as our showcase guest?
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00:00:56.000Yeah, no, we've got a special guest today, and uh yeah, great.
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00:00:56.960Thanks for joining us.
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00:00:59.200But uh we've got David from uh uh Trinoff.
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00:01:00.719David, welcome to the podcast.
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00:01:01.840Yeah, good to see you guys.
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00:01:03.119Thanks for having me back on.
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00:01:04.400No worries, no worries.
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00:01:04.879How are you?
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00:01:05.760How are you personally?
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00:01:06.400How are you busy?
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00:01:07.840Yeah, keeping very well, thanks.
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00:01:09.599Yeah, it's been uh been a really good summer.
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00:01:16.400Um actually my my my travel has cut down a bit over the summer, just focusing on uh other projects in the in in the background.
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00:01:24.719But um, yeah, that's enabled me to you know try and keep a bit more healthy and uh that's that's good for the good for the noodle as much as uh as much as the heart.
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00:01:28.640And um, yeah, and and are you are you still are you still cycling, David?
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00:01:29.680Yeah, doing my best.
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00:01:30.640Yeah, doing my best.
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00:01:33.760Um actually had a decent summer on on that regard as well.
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00:01:35.840So yeah, it's uh yeah, it's all been good.
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00:01:37.599You've got an assistant now, haven't you?
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00:01:40.239You've got uh you've got Ian's working with you now.
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00:01:41.200Yeah, absolutely.
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00:01:45.680It was a it was a really um you know crucial um employment for us.
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00:01:57.599And you know, on a personal level, um I I've wanted Ian um within the business for for a number of years, and you know uh the the timing synced up um earlier this year.
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00:02:05.760I think I think it was March or April time we managed to to get Ian on board, um, which is exactly why I've been able to be freed up to do some other things.
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00:02:10.719So, you know, it's um it's really important for our growth moving forwards, and uh yeah, he's a he's a great asset for us.
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00:02:12.479So yeah, very happy to have him on board.
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00:02:13.120Excellent.
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00:02:16.879So uh Simon, you were saying about uh London to Brighton.
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00:02:20.879So David, you you you like Simon didn't didn't turn up this year.
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00:02:24.080I was there with my camera, but uh I didn't see you two there.
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00:02:26.319No, I I wasn't involved this year.
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00:02:35.360Um I've I've actually done a couple of other charity things uh this year, and I've also supported a number of um uh charity things this year.
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00:02:40.080So yeah, it was uh it was a year off um for me for uh together for cinema.
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00:02:45.680Um I I do have a bit of unfinished business with that um with that particular event.
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00:02:49.280So um I need I do need to uh I do need to go back and give that another go.
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00:03:06.560Um obviously last year I attempted to do the down from Suffolk to Brighton and back again, um, unfortunately due to um uh mechanical issues with my knees, but also um a slight storm that uh that hit the UK with some very, very, very strong winds.
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00:03:08.560Um I didn't manage to make it back.
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00:03:12.319But still, you know, it was uh it was a good effort, I thought, uh, all the same.
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00:03:16.319So you did well to get there, David, and then uh and then did London and Brighton.
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00:03:25.759But we all thought when you said you're gonna cycle back, we we did wonder uh about your mental state, but uh no, you did did well, and uh yeah, there was a bit of a storm uh that was going on.
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00:03:27.120So uh maybe next year.
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00:03:28.319Yeah, maybe, maybe.
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00:03:30.240I mean the mental thing was was okay, actually.
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00:03:33.840I'm I'm used to doing those sort of very long um sort of rides.
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00:03:38.879I've done a number of them over the years, but uh yeah, it was a physical problem more than a mental problem, unfortunately.
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00:03:41.039So but uh it is what it is, that's how it goes.
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00:03:49.199Well, I was speaking to Ian this week because we we're still sort of pushing out the videos that I recorded and then also the ones that Teresa did.
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00:03:56.879And uh I think he, although after every year he says, I'm not gonna do it again, um, I think that he is going to do it again.
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00:04:02.240And uh hopefully I'm not breaking embargo, Ian, but I think he's thinking about trying to do 100 riders.
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00:04:02.800Cool.
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00:04:05.120So there's there's certainly space for both of you.
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00:04:06.000Yeah, fantastic.
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00:04:11.520Well, when that comes around, I'll certainly uh yeah, put my hand up and uh and support the great cause that is together for cinema.
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00:04:12.000Excellent.
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00:04:20.959So, right, while you're here today is um obviously the last time we physically saw you was out in Barcelona at ISE 2026.
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00:04:27.199I had to think about that this morning because it's like it's like is it is it five, is it 27 or is it 26?
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00:04:28.399I can never remember.
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00:04:47.680Um, so we saw you out at ISE 2026 where Simon was interviewing you, I was behind camera, and then I think the last time we actually had you on the podcast was um uh what was it, August 2025, where you just announced you just announced to us that you were doing the Altitude CI.
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00:04:53.759So since last year and since uh ISC, how how's life at Trinov?
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00:04:59.040Have you uh obviously we're gonna get on to something to do with waveforming in a minute, but what what's new?
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00:05:00.879How's how's the showroom coming on?
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00:05:04.720How's how's how is Trinov's and new products and developments?
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00:05:05.519Yeah, absolutely.
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00:05:14.560I mean we've but you know it's it's a huge transitional year, and and it's become a transitional two years with the inevitable um you know delays to this.
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00:05:17.279Uh what is an enormous building project.
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00:05:25.120Um, you know, it's building a new office is one thing, um but project managing it yourselves.
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00:05:32.000Um when I say ourselves, I mean you know, via Arno Labberry, um we've we've learned a huge amount.
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00:05:37.360And you know, this is it's not just an office building, uh and we have to keep reminding ourselves of that.
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00:05:40.879It is fully, fully designed for audio.
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00:05:44.480You know, we have to isolate all of the rooms from each other.
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00:05:50.240Um, that in itself it was a was a was a massive task, you know, knowing what's going to be going in.
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00:05:59.439Um and then just you know, the whole logistics of you know, you guys have been involved with um, you know, ground up builds and and you know what these these things entail.
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00:06:05.680And you know, a one-month delay here kicks on to a three-month delay somewhere else, and and that's just the nature of the beast.
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00:06:07.439But um, yeah, we're we're making progress.
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00:06:10.319Um I'm actually going to visit in a couple of weeks' time.
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00:06:15.680Um we're just going over because the the staff are gonna some of the staff are gonna start moving in.
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00:06:18.319Um so yeah, progress is being made.
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00:06:25.439Um hopefully, you know, I'd I'd love to give you a uh a date here and now when we can get you guys over to come and see it.
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00:06:29.360But um, yeah, we'll uh we we want to wait until it's ready.
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00:06:36.399Um it's one of those things you you you get to this point where we've been saying it's coming, it's coming, it's coming.
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00:06:44.879And at this point we want to make it right rather than uh rush it and and get people in and and you know not see its uh its full potential.
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00:06:54.480So yeah, there's good there's gonna be a bit to go, but yeah, I expect you know um next summer, something like that, we'll be uh we'll be doing a live podcast from one of our podcast studios in Trinoff Paris.
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00:06:55.680Let's see how that goes.
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00:06:56.560Fantastic.
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00:06:58.160Look looking forward to that, David.
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00:07:00.000It's uh you keep teasing us, don't you?
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00:07:02.639It's uh one of those things that uh just try to keep it.
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00:07:04.160You want it done properly, don't you?
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00:07:08.160Yeah, you want it done properly, and uh there's no point uh not not doing that.
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00:07:18.959But uh uh one of these uh these kind of projects you probably realised and uh the guys behind it, how much cabling is actually used in these projects that uh that you do, and obviously trying to soundproof the rooms, I'm sure, is pretty tricky.
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00:07:22.879But any any idea of the amount of cables being used on the on this new uh showroom?
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00:07:42.399I I'm sadly not close enough to it to have such facts and figures, but um I could uh yeah, I could I could probably get you a figure in uh and you can you can edit edit it in in post, but um it's it's gonna be it's gonna be kilometers because well yeah it's gonna be kilometres because it's the four and a half thousand square meter facility over over four floors.
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00:07:51.920So uh you know it it's it's a significant um you know a significant undertaking um you know financially and uh you know organizationally.
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00:07:56.720I was just about to ask that actually, the the economic downturn, has that affected the the build in any way?
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00:08:00.879Obviously you don't really want to do shortcuts, but uh is that why it's taken a little bit longer, do you think?
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00:08:04.639Or yeah, no, it it it's just working with contractors.
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00:08:07.439Um it it just is it just is what it is, you know.
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00:08:29.519Um, you know, materials delays and um you know we had uh a bit of an error with with uh with some of the concrete um uh gasketing that was that was uh uh between the between the blocks because it's basically you know concrete pre-form um blocks like a big Lego set pushed um uh put together and the gasketing uh caused us a bit of an issue.
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00:08:33.200Um that was you know that was last summer, if not the summer before.
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00:08:37.919So you know you can see how that sort of thing um really has a big knock-on effect.
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00:08:44.879And and the latest one was we need to we have to wait a month for um the air conditioning company to come in and certify the air conditioning.
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00:08:48.639It's like Jesus Christ, you know, if it's not one thing, it's another.
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00:08:54.960So, but you know, once once we get there, um, you know, it's it's not just a new office space.
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00:08:59.279Um, what comes with it is a new organizational structure within the business.
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00:09:05.759Um Arno Destinay, my my my colleague has stepped up to uh managing director of operations.
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00:09:22.000Um he's putting in a a real you know different company structure because you know when I started with Trinov Jesus, nearly eight years ago, God, nearly eight years ago, um we were 27 people.
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00:09:24.639Uh we're now over 70.
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00:09:32.399And that is in itself is going to probably double between you know the next two, three years.
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00:09:47.279So you know, whilst you're a small business and you know, uh very much run by the founders and you know, in the in the founders' vision, at some point the business gets to a size where actually you need to start putting some structure in place.
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00:10:04.559Um just purely from a logistical and communication perspective, you know, you you we we are a cottage industry and we know that, but um, you know, when the business gets to a certain size, you have to uh make some changes, which you know that that's tough for any business to go through that transition.
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00:10:07.759Um and yeah, we're we're we're in that process at the moment.
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00:10:10.480So yeah, it's um it's uh it's getting exciting.
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00:10:13.840We're near we're nearly the the light is at the end of the tunnel, let's put it that way.
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00:10:25.519It's nice to hear that you have the same problems when building a head office that I have on my current cinema project where I'm waiting for the air conditioning guys to come in and commission the air conditioning so I can finish the fabric.
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00:10:27.600So uh it's all about scale.
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00:10:30.399The the the problems are the same, the scale is different.
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00:10:31.840That's that's all it is.
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00:10:38.480So talking about um trend-off products, how how's the reception been to um the CI?
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00:10:41.279How's the how's that gone down in the marketplace?
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00:10:53.600Because obviously, as I said, you know, we we discussed it ready for the podcast to go out uh around Expo 2025, and then obviously we talked about it within the new implementation of the new software at IC.
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00:11:02.399So what's been the what's been the um the thinking, the feeling about uh the the Altitude CI from the integrators in the industry?
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00:11:03.200Yeah, absolutely.
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00:11:15.039I mean the the the the premise of the platform, you know, the the the the sort of license-based approach with the mixture of the Dante, the analog and and and and the AES, um it was a very different concept.
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00:11:29.519And and I think it took a bit of time for for integrators to get their heads around it because, you know, certainly, you know, in terms of home cinema, um, Dante is uh not the most widely used um technology for that.
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00:11:41.919You know, it's been a very traditional XLR or in our case VP25, because we like to be different, um you know, sort of cables, um, you know, a sort of traditional sort of wiring approach and and and analog.
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00:11:49.679And you know, that's all that's all good, and you know, that still exists and still will be the vast majority of the industry, I suspect.
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00:12:04.000But um, you know, Dante has some huge advantages, um, you know, particularly when we're talking about high channel count cinema, um, the flexibility of routing, um, you know, the ability to place amplifiers in different locations from the rack, you know.
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00:12:12.320The the same the same things all all um you know go into it, but it's you know, it's just integrators getting their heads around it and starting to specify it.
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00:12:15.519And you know, it's been a really huge success.
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00:12:17.679Um, the the the altitude CI.
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00:12:34.000You know, we've seen um a lot of our integration um dealer partners um upgrading their showrooms to Altitude CI and quite rightly you know, before they go and deploy into projects, um, just purely to get their head around uh you know the Dante side of life.
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00:12:38.559You know, it's it it's it's a technology that has its advantages.
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00:12:41.759Um it doesn't necessarily add complexity if you know what you're doing.
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00:12:45.679So yeah, it's um it's it's it's been a great uh been a great evolution.
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00:13:07.759Well, I think if you know, I mean obviously you look at Owen Maddock and Tob Delicophagni, they're both got uh Trinovs in their showrooms and they'll both be first to admit, and also talking with Ian when Ian was with uh uh Envision, actually having that product in front of you and being able to kinesthetically learn from it, you know, oh what happens if I do this?
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00:13:09.360You know, those those 3 a.m.
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00:13:21.840wake-up moments where you think, oh what if it's downstairs in your home cinema or it's at your showroom, then you can assign a day or two to have a play, have a tinker, or in Tom's case, about six months.
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00:13:26.559Um you could you could have a tinker and play and understand the products better.
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00:13:33.519And I think that is that is so much the way to go before, personally for me, before you install it in a client's house.
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00:13:34.240Yeah, 100%.
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00:13:36.240And you know, we're we're not unique in this.
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00:13:50.080You know, you think about um, you know, control systems, you think about, you know, all the systems that we that we that we work with on a daily basis and evolve with, um, you know, they're they're evolving all the time, they're bringing out new features, you know, we're we're exactly the same.
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00:14:13.039And, you know, I think when when you have that amount of um you know flexibility and ability to add um consecutive sort of performance steps and improvements like we're going to talk about in in the not too distant future, it is absolutely key to be uh hands-on with that product at the time of the change so you can really understand it.
00:14:13.200 -->
00:14:17.360You know, I I I do webinars, I talk about it, I talk about the features, blah, blah, blah.
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00:14:24.399But until you actually implement it yourself, it it doesn't it doesn't resonate uh quite as strongly.
00:14:24.480 -->
00:14:35.440And and you know, there was there was a very good example this week of going to visit uh uh a dealer in the Midlands and you know we set up the CI with the AMP 16.
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00:14:44.879We had to listen to the system before, and you know, I I always say that you know the experience is is what counts, and and he was very much of that mind as well.
00:14:45.039 -->
00:14:55.440So we didn't go into the technicalities, we just set the system up, did a very quick measurement and calibration, um, four subs in the corners with waveforming, and it it transformed the room.
00:14:55.600 -->
00:15:04.559And you know, he's he's one who who saw waveforming Antarinov years and years ago in an example that didn't really speak to him.
00:15:04.799 -->
00:15:09.440And now he's put it in his own room, it all makes sense and and it all comes together.
00:15:09.600 -->
00:15:12.720So, yeah, you know, there's there's an experiential element to all of this.
00:15:12.799 -->
00:15:16.799It's not just about numbers and words and and uh you know all of that sort of thing.
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00:15:25.840David, when uh we'd done training on the CI product before, what come across I think was how intuitive it is to actually set up the system.
00:15:26.000 -->
00:15:29.200Obviously, previously it's been a bit convoluted and things.
00:15:29.279 -->
00:15:32.000I think you use a certain terminology, but I'll leave that to you.
00:15:32.159 -->
00:15:36.960But uh yeah, the the new CI uh amplifier uh unit is is much more intuitive.
00:15:37.279 -->
00:15:45.840Yeah, the new UI has been a a revelation, you know, like like like anything, you know, the the the old interface, as we still lovingly call it, it's perfectly functional.
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00:15:50.159And you know, there's guys that are coming across to the new UI and like, oh, I can't find anything anymore.
00:15:50.240 -->
00:15:55.120It's like, well, you know, like anything, it's all the same stuff, just in a different place.
00:15:55.279 -->
00:16:00.240And you know, it's um but but it it is a much more structured workflow.
00:16:00.480 -->
00:16:19.039And you know, I think for products like ours, um, you know, that that having that structured step-by-step workflow is really, really important because you know, we know that you're not going to be doing um uh uh you know a a a sort of altitude-based cinema every month.
00:16:19.360 -->
00:16:24.159You know, sometimes it'd be once a year, it might be twice a year, it might be you know, once every two years.
00:16:24.240 -->
00:16:35.600You you know, you never you you never know, you know, and and with things, as we spoke about just a second ago, with things moving on conceptually within software updates, um, you know, things change.
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00:16:45.840And you know, again, having that guided workflow, but then being able to pick out the uh the differences as you go is um yeah, it it's it's making life a lot easier for our integrators for sure.
00:16:46.080 -->
00:16:50.639So one of the things we're here to talk about is some advancements in waveforming.
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00:17:00.080Um so on the website at trinoff.com you've got a blog up which is headlined Um uh what if we told you waveforming now works with just two subwoofers?
00:17:00.240 -->
00:17:01.360Catchy title, right?
00:17:03.200 -->
00:17:06.960So uh yeah, it's like the RD that went into that.
00:17:07.119 -->
00:17:31.519Um it's uh yeah, so so fundamentally when we started looking at waveforming, and you know, both me, you and Simon were all at pulse potentially up near Simon because he only stays in Essex, um we uh we it was always the the premise that you needed four subwoofers, uh two at the front, two at the back, to basically benefit from the advancements in waveforming.
00:17:31.680 -->
00:17:38.400So what what's Trinov discovered that makes it now effectively work with just two subwoofers?
00:17:38.720 -->
00:17:52.960Yeah, so if we if we actually wind back even further, and you remember the the the ISE show where waveforming was implemented for the first time, um we used a large number of subworthers for that room.
00:17:53.119 -->
00:17:55.519So for that room, we had 16 subs.
00:17:55.839 -->
00:17:57.519I remember that demo well.
00:17:58.079 -->
00:18:02.160Yeah, you know, and and for anybody that is hugely intimidating.
00:18:02.240 -->
00:18:08.079You know, as an integrator, you know, give me the last time you added more than four subs to a to a to a room, right?
00:18:08.160 -->
00:18:12.400You know, that that is that is the industry's sort of go-to configuration.
00:18:12.640 -->
00:18:25.200Suddenly, for us to come out and and showcase a system with 16 subs, everybody went, well, that's amazing, but not overly attainable, which is absolutely fair enough.
00:18:25.279 -->
00:18:33.279And you know, we're we're an engineering company, we're not a marketing company, we're we're we're actually a terrible um uh marketing company in that way.
00:18:33.839 -->
00:18:42.880Uh but what we what we learned from that experience was that everybody went away thinking that's what I need, I need that many subs.
00:18:43.359 -->
00:18:50.640And what we failed to um sort of bring to that demonstration was the context of why we needed so many subwoofers.
00:18:50.720 -->
00:19:02.960You know, we we were just purely showcasing the technology, but remember that room is 18 seats, and we had base response variation of less than one dB across all 18 of those seats.
00:19:03.519 -->
00:19:09.119That's why we needed so many subwoofers, and we kind of uh did a did a poor job in explaining why that was.
00:19:09.359 -->
00:19:12.480So even from day one, four was the minimum.
00:19:12.640 -->
00:19:14.640Two in the front, two in the back.
00:19:14.799 -->
00:19:26.400Um, and again, taking those learnings, we've we've really you know started to talk much more about um you know the size of the room and how the size of the room really dictates the number of subwoofers you need.
00:19:26.880 -->
00:19:34.079And as things have developed, you know, we've we've we're we're seeing um you know more and more systems installed.
00:19:34.240 -->
00:19:43.920Um and as the research moves on, um we get all of the data from you know from those installations, um, you know, we've we feed that back into into RD.
00:19:44.400 -->
00:19:51.039And the way that the two subwayforming came about was actually starting to look at smaller rooms like studios.
00:19:51.920 -->
00:20:00.960And studios have a particular a number of particular problems, and the first problem is the client's couch.
00:20:01.440 -->
00:20:12.400So you've got the mixing position, which is you know where we are next to our microphone with our nice monitors on the wall, and then you've got the client's couch, which is uh inevitably right at the back on the back wall.
00:20:13.200 -->
00:20:22.000So how do you treat base build-up for this position and that position with huge difficulty, right?
00:20:22.079 -->
00:20:31.039And and you know, bearing in mind studios um, you know, in terms of their budgets, we might think they have endless money to spend in the pro audio market, they certainly don't.
00:20:31.440 -->
00:20:33.440Um that becomes very, very tricky.
00:20:33.519 -->
00:20:36.400You know, you start adding bass traps, you start doing this, that, and the other.
00:20:36.480 -->
00:20:38.400These they're typically not massive rooms.
00:20:39.039 -->
00:20:42.240So we started looking into it, and and that was one of the use cases.
00:20:42.799 -->
00:20:48.720And what we're doing with the with the two-sub waveforming variant is just treating decay.
00:20:49.359 -->
00:20:58.799So the the the premise of um uh of waveforming and the premise of standing waves or room modes in the beginning is it's all about the reflection.
00:20:59.200 -->
00:21:03.039If you don't get the reflection, you don't get the interference, right?
00:21:03.279 -->
00:21:16.400So the goal of waveforming in its in its uh in its in its full form is to catch that wave at the back, steer the base off the side walls and the ceilings to mitigate those side ceiling reflections and then catch it all at the back, right?
00:21:16.480 -->
00:21:19.680So you don't get any modal response in the room.
00:21:20.559 -->
00:21:23.839With two sub-waveforming, we're reliant on that bounce.
00:21:24.079 -->
00:21:29.119So we're letting that bounce hit the rear wall, then come back to the front and be absorbed by the front subs.
00:21:29.200 -->
00:21:32.079So the front subs are doing both emission and absorption.
00:21:32.640 -->
00:21:41.839And if we if we think about the the the reproduction of base, when we think about it, it's actually all about time.
00:21:42.720 -->
00:21:46.880Frequency is like fre frequency is like your salt and pepper.
00:21:46.960 -->
00:21:48.240You know, do you like more of this?
00:21:48.400 -->
00:21:49.680Do you like less than that?
00:21:50.240 -->
00:21:56.720But the base in its actual, you know, sort of uh presentation is much more like the stock.
00:21:56.880 -->
00:22:01.039It's it's the it's the foundation of the soundstage.
00:22:02.079 -->
00:22:05.279And that is all based on time domain.
00:22:05.759 -->
00:22:13.759So if you can solve that time domain problem to a degree, you get huge advantages.
00:22:13.839 -->
00:22:17.759You know, being able to reduce your decay by 50% is massive.
00:22:18.400 -->
00:22:25.759You know, if if we if we took a space and put some fuzzy stuff in it, we could reduce the decay very easily.
00:22:26.480 -->
00:22:27.839The base doesn't work that way.
00:22:28.000 -->
00:22:32.640You know, we we need uh much uh more space, more depth, first of all.
00:22:33.279 -->
00:22:38.559Or we turn to um active technologies and we mitigate the the decay that way.
00:22:38.640 -->
00:22:43.039So so yeah that's the that's the sort of premise of of what we were trying to achieve.
00:22:43.279 -->
00:22:45.680And you can kind of roll that out to different applications.
00:22:45.759 -->
00:24:45.839So if you look at hi-fi for example you know we see more and more hi-fi manufactures um with uh dedicated subwoofers um some with DSP in them most of them with DSP in them the adoption of subwoofers in in hi-fi is is is coming the the the hi-fi market is uh is changing you know it's moving away from purely massive floor standards doing full range to smaller speakers and subwoofers because as we know place your speakers as required for your for your you know plus or minus 30 degrees put your seat in that position that's great for the stereo image but I guarantee it's not great for bass that that is just the nature of the of the beast so um yeah the adoption subwoofers in in in that sort of example um you know again we can now treat the the the base decay as well David do you uh believe that this has come about having the two subs for the more for the UK market because obviously the rooms uh that that we work on as a as as in as dealers aren't as big as you so the 16 subs that you had at uh at the shows obviously that that needs a big room you need a lot of depth to that room and obviously building out baffled walls do you think the two sub scenarios come about because of feedback or just because you know what the UK rooms are are more like it it it's it's more you know we we never really make a a a product to to to service i I guess to service anything in in particular you know the the small room problem for us comes from studios um that can be applied to residential and I think you know it the the the the sort of UK size room is a great example because you know in a in a single garage size or a double garage sized um you know sort of room you don't always have the flexibility to put the seats where you want them and sometimes they have to they have to be on the back wall or the client's wishes to have them on the back wall.
00:24:46.079 -->
00:24:54.000And when you're in a traditional waveforming example with rear subs you need to be more than one metre away from the rear subs.
00:24:54.079 -->
00:24:58.000That is a stipulation because we don't want you sat in that cancellation zone.
00:24:58.240 -->
00:25:08.799Whereas now the cancellation zone's at the front so actually sitting as close to the back wall as possible with a two sub waveforming example is actually beneficial to performance.
00:25:09.039 -->
00:25:25.680So again it's it's it's adding features to make it more attainable that's one thing um but also to you know suit different uh different sort of scenarios so yeah I think that's um that's kind of where we uh where we where we sit on the um on that sort of approach.
00:25:25.920 -->
00:27:00.720Well I suppose also it it makes it a lot more approachable to your uh average I'm gonna do that in air quotes your your average you know like people like myself and Simon that might get involved every now and again in a high end job but being able to put Trinov into a job whereby you're not putting in 16 subwoofers or you're not putting in 64 speakers it makes it a lot more manageable for for the integrator um how is is is the is it coming via software download is it is it out now is it actually do we need to do anything to our current equipment to get it or no so the the the software is available so it's available on both altitude 16 altitude 32 and altitude ci um it's a free of charge download as as we always do you know we uh we we I can't remember the term that somebody said the other day it was better than buy once cry once um it was better than that but you know it it's kind of a bit like a fine wine or a fine cheese you know it does get better over time um and these software updates we always make them free of charge that's uh that's our our philosophy that's our values um so yeah free of charge it'll take five minutes ten minutes depending on your internet speed to uh to install if you've already measured the system for waveforming there are some additional benefits um some additional improvements that that just you know the algorithms um have been improved that you can take advantage of um if you haven't measured for waveforming yet then yeah just need to take a few measurements of the subs and and you're off to the races.
00:27:01.039 -->
00:27:34.160David the obviously subs aren't the most uh attractive things in the world and uh obviously when you're trying to put the minimum of four subs into a room that's obviously quite tricky but now we've got two uh obviously that would make the room look look a lot better if you haven't got a sort of baffled wall and things one thing I do want to ask is how much strain is put on the subs with waveforming obviously four subs you've not got as much strain I would think with two I would say you're gonna have a lot more strain on on those subs.
00:27:34.559 -->
00:27:58.960Can you use active subs or is it best to use passive subs just due to the pure strain that's being put on on on those subwoofers so just to give you a sort of practical example so my system at home I've got two 12 inch active subs um they've got 600 watt RMS um amplifiers in them and there's no difference.
00:27:59.279 -->
00:30:04.240I can play at the same SPL as I could with or without waveforming and you know I've been waiting for this update myself because you know like any um any good plumber I've got a leaky tap um and you know my my room at home is is my lounge you know I don't have a dedicated I don't have a dedicated space and you know this this this two sub approach really lends itself to that sort of um you know multi-use um sort of space as you say if you can conceal the subs if you if you can't having fewer boxes around makes it much more um acceptable to to everybody and it really transformed my system just by getting rid of uh a very key resonance that I have at my seating position you know it it's not a problem with EQ it's a it's a it's a a lingering decay was the issue that I had um at uh uh 40 40 odd 45 hertz in in my seating position and it just brings so much clarity you know bass when it when it's decaying bass clouds so many things and and there's so much texture within bass that you that you just lose like that one note sort of drony bass you know there are really in in in our end of the market that we're talking about you know custom integration home cinema there aren't really any bad products out there anymore you know that there aren't slow subwoofers there aren't um you know this that and the other that that is a problem of acoustics it's not a mechanical problem from the subwoofers um uh in general you know there's there's um you know obviously varying degrees of of complexity there but you know being able to solve these these complex acoustic problems with existing equipment um that is beneficial to everybody is there a recommended RMS do you think for the for the subs you said you've got 600 which obviously works perfectly fine in yours but i if if you had less would would that again put more strain on on the subwoofer I mean I'm more concerned about the amp inside the sub blowing up basically and if it's behind a baffle wall or something then you've then got to take all the fabric away or whatever you've constructed it with and then replace it.
00:30:04.480 -->
00:30:05.440It's a fair question.
00:30:05.839 -->
00:30:27.519You know we do we do put a little bit more um you know strain on the subs actually more in a in a planar waveforming environment than uh a two sub environment you know where the the problem is relatively easy to correct actually in a two sub in environment where we're just dealing with the decay when you're starting to try and shape the base wave that that takes a lot more.
00:30:27.680 -->
00:31:23.920So actually you know there's there's far less um you know uh need and you know again we when you're doubling your amount of subwoofers you're only gaining three dB of efficiency right so you know it it's not about um needing more subs to get more output you you need to start with a sub that's capable in the beginning and when I say capable that's capable for your needs you know do you want to be playing at theatrical reference level or or do you just want to you know when I'm playing at home I'm less than 80 dB if I go higher than that the dog runs away you know so you know most of the time I'm playing relatively quietly and um you know the subs are on half volume um on the back and you know if I want to push it and have a bit of fun I still can but you know it's um it's it's making sure that the the the the need is met um beforehand so yeah I think I I don't think anybody out there that's got that's got passive subs should be should be worried.
00:31:24.400 -->
00:31:54.000Obviously if the if the existing system is undersubbed to begin with then therein lies the problem not not what you do with it in post-processing yeah so if if someone's listening to this um thinking about either I know a DIY projects we do get in consumers listen to the podcast uh or integrators if we're going with a two sub system with the two subs at the front do they have is there an optimum place they have to be in or can they within reason be anywhere and the system will adjust?
00:31:54.240 -->
00:32:10.480Yeah so if you again if you look at my room I've got one stuck in the corner and the other one is about I don't know it's probably three metres away and the room is four and a half meters wide right so they are in suboptimal positions and it still and it still works it still provides me benefit.
00:32:10.640 -->
00:32:11.599Now could it be better?
00:32:11.759 -->
00:32:13.039Could I get better performance?
00:32:13.200 -->
00:34:46.159Yes absolutely if I if I move the subs into correct positions because again we're still dealing with physics and you know the the the the need to get the subs away from the walls um so that you're not exciting all of those uh modes from a pressure zone is is key to it so you know we would typically advise quarter points of the room um room width so depending on uh the width of the room that may be um two subs it may be three subs it may be four subs depending on the on the room's physical width um if you can get those on those um positions then you're gonna get the best performance now even in a two subarray if you can get those up on the wall into you know the half height of the room you're gonna get better performance again so um it very much follows what we call the cylindrical which is sub on the floor layout and the planar layout which is uh you know subs uh up high and up onto the walls um but you know again because it's decay control only in that regard really wherever the subs are placed you're going to get some benefits how much that becomes very very difficult to predict but you know again if you look at all of those sort of speaker systems that that are that are built with you know I'm thinking of um Crips I'm thinking of Clipsh I'm thinking of mag audio with the wall with LCRs and subs that is virtually perfect right you know it it that's that's got the subs off the floor it's got them um into the walls um they will do an absolutely you know fantastic job in in in those positions so yeah you know we're we're very much an engineering first um you know we're not a consumer technology you know although we supply technology to consumers in the end we're really a professional technology and you know we rely on um you know you guys to you know as integrators to to design rooms with performance um objectives in mind not to say that a consumer can't um you know go for the same objectives it's just you know that's that's the sort of approach you know it's the it's the design fix the physics first um approach that's that's always going to get the the best results in the end and how does waveforming work so I I'm thinking of a few of my customers if you've got sort of like a a natural diffusion on the back wall for instance so for it you know if you look at like some of our friends in the industry who build cabinetry you might have you know behind the sofa or behind the seating you've got a nice bookshelf or something like that.
00:34:46.400 -->
00:35:50.159Does does wave so if you've got a natural diffusion or even a a a diffusion that an integrator's put in how does that does that affect the waveform in any way um I I'm just thinking of one of my clients who is prime for this he's got a couple of he's got a um set of kef blades he's got some rail subs but he's got a cabinet in the middle and then at the back he's got some slat wall but some bits that notch out every now and again so it's if you've got a non-perfectly square fabric wrapped room does it still work or yeah absolutely and actually we did a we did an article a blog article on the website about um L-shaped rooms because that's a very common configuration as well but um my my dear colleague Tom um he sent me some results of a system he was uh visiting out in um god where is he at the moment I can't remember it was either South Africa or somewhere in Asia um where the subs were actually uh about a third of the way down the room mounted in a uh a an open piece of cabinetry.
00:35:50.639 -->
00:35:50.800Okay.
00:35:51.199 -->
00:36:10.159Again it worked fantastically well you know it's it I'm I'm always amazed at how robust the algorithm is and you know what I would say to any integrators out there that you know they I would say speak to our distributors and if a client wants to try it go and try it.
00:36:10.320 -->
00:36:18.800You know it it it's gonna take you less than an hour to to do the measurements and give it a go and see if it's gonna work in that space.
00:36:19.760 -->
00:36:26.880And that's always you know been one of the best routes to um to success is to try it in in a in a client's house, right?
00:36:27.039 -->
00:36:34.880So you know if you can take that opportunity you know you could even take a couple of subs with you and just play around with position and all this sort of thing.
00:36:36.320 -->
00:37:13.840This is what I really love about waveforming is it's giving integrators opportunities, you know, whether it's existing customers um whether it's you know looking for new new business but it's giving you opportunities to engineer systems with performance in mind, performance objectives but also give you the excuse to knock on the door of Mr customer that you spoke to five, ten years ago and say look, there's this new technology available I think it would work really well in your room are you willing to to let us in for half a day and and try it and see see what happens you know I think that's the that's the key to it try and seize the opportunity um and uh you know try these things out.
00:37:13.920 -->
00:37:31.199Again the first time I did a waveforming demonstration um was in a hotel with a completely open side and it worked fantastic and it worked fantastically well you know I'm always amazed at the robustness of the algorithm um and and what advantage it can it can bring.
00:37:31.440 -->
00:37:43.440Stuart and I on the last podcast were talking about opportunities and uh as you just mentioned David at the moment obviously business is pretty pretty pretty tough out there but we've got a lot of clients who've had previous nice systems.
00:37:43.599 -->
00:38:24.639So it's a good opportunity to to get the the trin off systems in there and say look this is what you can experience and how how that uh how that can affect the a really decent room and how much uh that can improve the room we've actually got and I like real world scenarios and obviously with integrators and for the the the the viewers and listeners um uh we've got a really nice uh system it's a 9.4.4 system so uh the front wires and everything how can CI be integrated into that basically we've got uh a pre-power set up so we've got the power amplifiers can we just add a a a a CI unit in there or do we need up the channels so basically we've got 17 channels.
00:38:24.880 -->
00:40:01.760Yeah so if you've got pre-power already in there it's likely to all be analog right so um that's where you would probably turn to something like the altitude 16 yeah that could be that fine you could go you you you could go with the altitude CI but you'd need uh some Dante to analog converters um which you know I I I wouldn't say that's the best approach um of course you could you could you could also look at changing the amplifiers to something that is Dante enabled but again in a system where you've already got that and it's you know you don't you don't you you know good amplifiers are good amplifiers you know you don't you don't need to go s go swapping things out um this industry is is very good at at ripping things out I hear that term a lot rip it out put this in it's like yeah all right that that works in principle but actually for a for a user um you know those amplifiers are serving a very good purpose so I I would always say that um I would always say that use the right tool for the job the the CI is great because it it hits a price point it it um you know gets you into the Trinov ecosystem earlier um but I wouldn't compromise um the system necessarily by um adding extra complexity where it's not required extra D2A converters that you know uh it it's just not necessary that's what we've got the altitude 16 and altitude 32 for they are much more suitable for that job um there are some good Dante to analog converters out there but by the time you've bolted those on you're probably at a similar sort of ballpark to what you'd be with a with an altitude 16 in that sort of scenario.
00:40:02.079 -->
00:40:17.440Yeah so the price difference is probably not that different to know obviously that the price now pays an important part in it I think hence why we're sort of looking at the altitude CI but uh yeah you you're completely right it's no point putting something in there that's not really fit for that particular particular job.
00:40:17.599 -->
00:40:51.679So uh altitude 16 it is then yeah well you know it would be very easy for me to sit here and say yes do it you know again that's not the way I approach business that's not the way we as Trinov approach business you know when when we when we were conceiving the altitude CI we weren't conceiving it as a successor to the altitude 16 and 32 we were conceiving it as another uh tool in the armory and a different topology um you know by comparison to uh you know to uh the altitude 16 and 32 and offered offer different configurations and opportunities there.
00:40:52.000 -->
00:41:01.280I think where I've seen it work really well and is where space is limited and not not necessarily the size of the room but the the equipment location.
00:41:01.599 -->
00:41:42.559So I I remember doing seeing one job um uh last year I think it was and the equipment room was off the back of a toilet like shower room sort of thing and it was the very top floor in like a seven story townhouse and so to to be able to put in there um altitude and amplitudes you just you just didn't have the retail space because all the equipment was in the rack next to the rack was a lighting system but also in this room was a Hoover a mop and bucket and the the AC unit so I think that's where I've seen the the deployment of the CI unit work really well where the U space is limited.
00:41:42.800 -->
00:41:50.000Yeah that that flexibility to to send those audio channels over a cat cable just it it it opens things up.
00:41:50.079 -->
00:42:04.480You know we've got a customer in the in the Netherlands who um you know he's been waiting for the CI for a number of years because he has to put one of the amplifiers at the front of the room behind the baffle wall he cut he can't locate it anywhere else just with those restrictions.
00:42:05.039 -->
00:42:30.159He was asking me you know should I use uh analogue to Dante converters I said i I I would wait till the CI is available and then do it properly do it that way and um you know it's been it's been great success but you know that example is exactly the super yacht example you know the last super yacht I went on to I actually climbed through a panel in the toilet to get to the rack so you know I I I I do know that scenario but again that's that's the key there.
00:42:30.320 -->
00:43:20.639But you know also going to the extreme end of things um you know going up to those high channel count systems you know we're seeing more and more residential DCI um you know certainly in the Far East certainly in in uh you know in the UK there are a number of DCI installations out there and you know the ability to go up to 64 channels now with uh with Dolby Atmos commercial um those systems exist and you know that's the 0.1% of the 0.1% but you know it's it's it's you know from an altitude CI with you know 2.2 all the way up to 64 channels commercial DCI you know that is a very large range of um products and and solutions that you can solve sorry projects not products that you can solve with just one product so yeah but it's scalability is is absolutely it's key.
00:43:20.880 -->
00:43:30.960And then obviously the buzzword at the moment and probably will help this podcast rank higher in SEO is we're gonna say AI several times and artificial intelligence.
00:43:31.039 -->
00:43:38.639Yeah obviously people have a yin yang uh approach to AI because they see it in negative ways quite a lot.
00:43:38.800 -->
00:43:38.960Yeah.
00:43:39.199 -->
00:43:51.840Are Trinov looking at AI to help in development of products development in room optimization uh making it easier again I'm doing my air quotes easier to calibrate for the end user.
00:43:52.159 -->
00:44:00.800Yeah absolutely I mean we're you know we have two PHPs in on staff um one one in AI and one in machine learning Learning.
00:44:01.440 -->
00:44:07.599And their job is to work with AI from the research perspective.
00:44:08.000 -->
00:44:12.480How can research and development benefit from utilizing AI?
00:44:12.880 -->
00:44:15.679It has some wonderful abilities there.
00:44:16.320 -->
00:44:26.800And that feeds right the way through to how do we use AI from a usability perspective, you know, and how you know how do we calibrate systems?
00:44:26.880 -->
00:44:28.239How do we tune systems?
00:44:28.400 -->
00:44:31.199And this is what we were showing at CGUS.
00:44:31.440 -->
00:44:37.599So my team out there, they had Altitude 16 on display.
00:44:38.480 -->
00:44:44.239And we were using Claude in this uh in this example, but it could be any large language model.
00:44:44.320 -->
00:44:45.440It doesn't particularly matter.
00:44:45.519 -->
00:44:48.480You just need to connect it via the the MCP.
00:44:48.559 -->
00:44:57.840So I'm going to use some words that you know, some algorithms, some acronym acronyms, sorry, that um, you know, which which we we love a good acronym in this industry, don't we?
00:44:57.920 -->
00:45:02.719But there's there's there's LLM, which is large language model, and then there's MCP.
00:45:02.880 -->
00:45:06.480Um and and basically the MCP is like the API.
00:45:06.800 -->
00:45:23.440So think of the large language model, which is your Claude, your um ChatGPT, your whatever, integrating with an MCP, which is basically the the conduit between the large language model and controlling uh the end the end result.
00:45:23.679 -->
00:45:32.960So you say to a system, as an example let's use a home cinema uh or an audio system example the vocals are a bit thin.
00:45:33.760 -->
00:45:35.679That goes into the large language model.
00:45:36.079 -->
00:45:43.840The large language model spits that to the MCP, and between them they come up with um you know an approach to fix that particular problem.
00:45:43.920 -->
00:45:48.000And that's exactly what we've um what we've been developing and what we've been showing.
00:45:48.480 -->
00:45:57.519And you know, the the idea of of of uh AI assistance, um, you're never going to replace a calibrator, right?
00:45:57.679 -->
00:45:59.840AI can't get up and move the microphone.
00:46:00.000 -->
00:46:05.440First of all, you know, that that's there is a level of human uh interaction needed.
00:46:05.679 -->
00:46:11.519Um but it doesn't mean that AI can't be um, you know, a a good assistant in this in this sort of thing.
00:46:11.599 -->
00:46:24.880You know, if you've got a if you've got a question or or you're coming against a problem, you know, rather than ring the distributor, ring the manufacturer, whatever, now we get clawed out and we go, I'm having this problem, how do I fix it?
00:46:24.960 -->
00:46:30.800You know, that that is how we've evolved as as society and how we've evolved with these these sort of tools.
00:46:31.039 -->
00:46:34.880And building that into the altitude platform provides a number of benefits.
00:46:35.039 -->
00:46:40.480So, you know the the the example that I spoke about there is basically an advanced tone control.
00:46:41.360 -->
00:46:54.320But if I if I said to you, and I don't need you to answer this question, not going to put you on the spot, but but you know, if I said to you that the system sounds harsh, now is that a problem of frequency?
00:46:54.800 -->
00:46:56.480Is that a problem of level?
00:46:56.639 -->
00:46:59.280Is it a problem of you know, algorithm?
00:46:59.440 -->
00:47:01.119Is it a problem of filters?
00:47:01.760 -->
00:47:05.920Where on the EQ band do you need to go to remove harshness?
00:47:06.159 -->
00:47:06.480Right?
00:47:07.199 -->
00:47:27.280We're all you know, we're all experienced in this industry and we all use different adjectives to describe, you know, my my harsh might be your um edgy or whatever terminology that we use, we can never agree on the terminology of things, and that's where these um large language models really come in and and and and play the part of the interpreter.
00:47:27.760 -->
00:47:52.159Um and you know, think about that for a trained listener, like a like a dealer who's who's implementing a system, or an end user, you know, the different the variants in the mixes that we get, you know, you can be watching something on Netflix, then watching something on Colliderscape, then watching something on Blu-ray, then a set top box, you know, we go through these different sources that all have um very different um audio reproductions.
00:47:53.199 -->
00:47:57.599And then there's the the you know, interfilm difference.
00:47:57.679 -->
00:48:02.800You know, you're you're watching a TV series from XYZ, you're watching a film from this.
00:48:04.559 -->
00:48:08.639If the base is not to your liking, what do you do?
00:48:09.039 -->
00:48:14.400Well, you get outclawed, you say um there's not enough base, and and it will go away and go boom.
00:48:14.880 -->
00:48:17.840And then you can say, Oh, that's a bit too much, and it will tone it down again.
00:48:17.920 -->
00:48:36.079You know, it's it's a it's a it's a conversation in a way, um, you know, between between uh the the the ecosystem of devices, and that's where I think the power of of AI is, um, you know, in in uh in the audio side, but then it will have its impact on the research and development side.
00:48:36.159 -->
00:48:49.280You know, I can't talk about what we're doing with AI on the on the RD side, but some very, very exciting things coming um you know that are going to transform the way that we capture data and the way that we interpret data and utilize it for optimization.
00:48:49.360 -->
00:48:57.599So yeah, there's um there's a lot to come from the AI side of life, and we're we're only just dipping our toe in the water with um you know what we showed at CDA.
00:48:57.760 -->
00:49:10.320It's not an official release yet, um, but we will um you know, once we've done some some some more work, um, you know, we will um make it available in in software and for people to uh to to get their hands on.
00:49:10.559 -->
00:49:13.920So is that going to be a talking directly to the system?
00:49:14.079 -->
00:49:27.280Um because I I was watching a Joanna Stern podcast this morning where she was uh she was interviewing uh Mark Zuckerberg, and obviously they were talking about Meta's, I can't think what they call it now, but Meta's new sort of LLM.
00:49:27.519 -->
00:49:49.679And one thing that Zuckerberg was sort of saying is that he sets up a camera to and it films him doing his mixed martial arts training, and then in in between him finishing a training session to starting a new one, so we're talking 60, 60 to 120 seconds, it will send in some feedback saying you need to stand upright a bit more, your bum sticking out too far, your kicks are not too high.
00:49:49.920 -->
00:50:08.400So, so do you perceive uh a stage where someone like an integrator or an integrator gets someone like Ricky from Calibrate into Calibrate system, but then a client can sit there and talk to the system afterwards and say, can we adjust the bass more based on what the movie was I was listening to?
00:50:08.559 -->
00:50:09.199Yeah, absolutely.
00:50:09.280 -->
00:50:17.760You know, if you if you think of the Christopher Nolan uh paradox, which is the the vocals being completely buried in the mix, you know, he's done that for a reason.
00:50:17.920 -->
00:50:25.199You know, there there is there is a method in the madness, but but you know, when we perceive that, we're like, oh, I can't hear the vocals.
00:50:25.360 -->
00:50:39.440You know, so you just say to your LLM, I can't hear the vocals, and it will just go bosh, and it will do one or a number of things, whether that's a frequency response adjustment, whether it's a level adjustment on the center channel, um, you know, just to just to make those things.
00:50:39.599 -->
00:50:44.880And, you know, what the calibrators would have had to do is do different presets previously.
00:50:45.119 -->
00:51:00.960But you know, you can also ask the LLM to then uh to then save that as a preset, you know, so you could you could say, you know, please save this as my Christopher Nolan preset again, just to use a um, you know, just to use an example that that that uh a lot of people know.
00:51:01.360 -->
00:51:04.880But again, you know, we're lacking immersivity.
00:51:04.960 -->
00:51:07.360I I'm I'm feeling a lack of immersivity.
00:51:07.599 -->
00:51:08.559What does that mean?
00:51:08.719 -->
00:51:10.320What what adjustment does that mean?
00:51:10.480 -->
00:51:13.039And it's very low level at the moment.
00:51:13.519 -->
00:51:29.760We've put guardrails in place so that we're only allowing it to adjust certain things within a certain scope, um, you know, but further down the line it will have access to the optimizer and it can actually analyze the results of the filters and make adjustments to the filters on the fly.
00:51:30.000 -->
00:51:36.320And, you know, we're the ones that are able to do this because we've got this all-in-one platform.
00:51:36.400 -->
00:51:39.840You know, we don't have a third-party piece of software that we need to talk to.
00:51:39.920 -->
00:51:41.599It's all baked into the unit.
00:51:41.679 -->
00:51:49.599You know, once the measurement is in the unit, unless anything acoustically changes, we can make these recomputations and adjustments on the fly.
00:51:49.760 -->
00:51:56.159Um, and AI will just take that to a much more um intelligent um conversational level.
00:51:56.559 -->
00:52:14.159With AI, obviously, you you open up a can of worms uh for for obviously integrators, and obviously you did mention that it is going to be limited to what it can do, because obviously what you don't want is a system being nicely calibrated and then it's being tweaked too much by by AI, and then obviously ruining the system.
00:52:14.400 -->
00:52:20.960Obviously, you can tweak it to how the client wants it, but I think you do run a risk of AI almost doing too much.
00:52:21.119 -->
00:52:25.039Obviously, it's nice to use AI and uh and use what it can do.
00:52:25.119 -->
00:52:40.000And I know certain manufacturers have designed subs and speakers with with AI because it's doing certain things and certain frequencies aren't quite right, and they're putting it into AI and they'll say it will suggest a certain thing, they'll do it, and then that speaker or sub sounds amazing.
00:52:40.159 -->
00:52:45.360So I think you are gonna get that with AI, but I'm a bit concerned also you're you're opening up a can of worms.
00:52:45.519 -->
00:52:49.360Yeah, and and that's down to us as manufacturers to put those guardrails in place, right?
00:52:49.519 -->
00:52:58.639If you if you give if you you know, we've we've seen it, you know, the the headlines in the news, if you if you don't safeguard and put the guardrails in place for AI, then it runs riot.
00:52:58.800 -->
00:53:03.280And you know, running riot in a home theatre is a bit different to running riot in the real world.
00:53:03.440 -->
00:53:08.719But um, you know, the point being that we we don't want to give that opportunity to cause damage.
00:53:08.880 -->
00:53:19.840You know, if a client's just asking for more, more, more, more, more, it will come back to you and say, you know, we c you've already done this adjustment, we can't, we we don't advise doing that.
00:53:20.079 -->
00:53:23.280Um because of X, Y, Z, and it will spell it out for you.
00:53:23.360 -->
00:53:23.599Why?
00:53:23.679 -->
00:53:30.880It'll say, you know, you've already put um X amount of decibels into the center channel, you're still lacking vocal intelligibility.
00:53:31.119 -->
00:53:36.079Well, you know, we're not just going to keep pushing, pushing, pushing until things go bang.
00:53:36.159 -->
00:53:42.000That's um that's absolutely you know, that and that's our job as the as the manufacturer, as I say, to put those um guardrails in place.
00:53:42.159 -->
00:53:47.280This is this is where the MCP is key because you know that is within our control.
00:53:47.519 -->
00:53:49.440You know, we develop the MCP.
00:53:49.760 -->
00:54:05.440So we can take the input and define what the output is, um, rather than um having a third-party MCP that doesn't have that understanding, just going, just pushing buttons, basically like a uh, you know, uh a control system.
00:54:05.599 -->
00:54:07.440Just go add, add, add, add, add.
00:54:07.519 -->
00:54:09.440That's that's not helpful to anybody.
00:54:09.599 -->
00:54:17.119Um so yeah, that's um that's that's on Oscar's manufacturers to to make AI appropriate for the application.
00:54:17.280 -->
00:54:21.199And as I said to you before, it it's never going to replace a calibrator.
00:54:21.360 -->
00:54:26.880You know, you still got to get the system to a baseline and um you know AI can't listen.
00:54:27.119 -->
00:54:28.320It has no ears, right?
00:54:28.480 -->
00:54:29.519You are its ears.
00:54:29.679 -->
00:54:39.360And and but you know, having that conversation as an integrator, you know, where you you don't necessarily understand, you know, there's stuff in the altitude that I don't understand.
00:54:40.000 -->
00:54:41.360Surely not, David.
00:54:41.519 -->
00:54:42.079Surely not.
00:54:42.559 -->
00:54:51.599I I mean I don't like to admit my weaknesses, but you know, I I you know this is this is really high-level engineering, and I'm not a signal processing engineer.
00:54:51.679 -->
00:54:57.039I I don't have a native understanding of what all of those filter changes are going to do.
00:54:57.519 -->
00:54:59.920I know from experience what the effect should be.
00:55:00.000 -->
00:55:02.159I don't necessarily know why it's done it.
00:55:02.400 -->
00:55:16.719So, you know, just going in and pressing buttons, it doesn't it doesn't help anybody, and you can have all this power at your fingertips, but you know, using something with a bit of intelligence that's that that says, I'm trying to solve this problem, help me do it.
00:55:16.880 -->
00:55:24.800Um, you know, once it's got access to all of that sort of stuff, it can it can it can make a huge um you know difference to the to to the to the end result.
00:55:25.039 -->
00:55:31.920I think what I what I like about AI and LLMs is is the fact that it it remembers.
00:55:32.320 -->
00:55:39.840So, you know, if you're using Claude all the time, if we're using ChatGPT or Gemini or any of the others or your own, it remembers.
00:55:40.000 -->
00:55:44.880So you might type something and it will say, Oh, well, three weeks ago we did it like this.
00:55:45.039 -->
00:55:46.400Would you like it done the same?
00:55:46.719 -->
00:56:05.440And I and I can see that being really valuable in the in the home cinema or the or the lounge environment where it'll be like, you know, or can you turn the bass down and and the audio up and and or it will prompt you to say, Oh, you're Stuart, you're watching uh uh an action movie at 8 p.m.
00:56:05.599 -->
00:56:08.159The last time we did this, we inputted this command.
00:56:08.320 -->
00:56:10.960Would you like us to input that command again?
00:56:11.199 -->
00:56:16.719Because, you know, in the week you listened to a crash bang rollop one and we messed around with the levels again.
00:56:16.880 -->
00:56:20.079So it's almost like it almost like it learns.
00:56:20.159 -->
00:56:32.239It could it'd be amazing if it could read the metadata from something like Klidoscape, as you say, to oh, you're watching a Christopher Nolan, automatically put it into a Christopher Nolan, or you're watching a whatever movie, automatically put it into a whatever.
00:56:32.480 -->
00:56:36.159I'm I'm you know, I I'm I'm certainly no AI expert.
00:56:36.239 -->
00:56:49.119I am a I am a fledgling adopter of AI, and you know, I I'm as I'm as scared about its abilities as as anybody, but you know, at the same time, we don't know what it could do in the future, you know.
00:56:49.679 -->
00:56:56.159There's it it's all about what you give it, how much you give it as to what you get out, right?
00:56:56.320 -->
00:57:04.400So if you start giving it access to the audio stream, which I doubt I don't see how that would ever happen, but you never know.
00:57:04.480 -->
00:57:07.599You know, again, I don't I don't know these things, I can't see the future.
00:57:07.760 -->
00:57:15.840Um, you know, but it could be analysing that content, um, you know, but it would take a huge amount of processing to do it in real time.
00:57:15.920 -->
00:57:21.840And and I think that's where the limitations are, you know, even doing what we're doing, it takes a couple of few seconds to make its mind up.
00:57:21.920 -->
00:57:29.840It's got to go off the internet, traol those resources, and then come back and then spit it to the MCP to to to do something.
00:57:30.079 -->
00:57:33.280So I, you know, again, tentatively, I think it's great.
00:57:33.360 -->
00:57:34.800I think it's got some great abilities.
00:57:34.880 -->
00:57:43.280Um, you know, as a tool to help integrators deliver great systems, we should we should be embracing it and we should be thinking that it's a benefit.
00:57:43.440 -->
00:57:52.960Um, those that are out there thinking that Trinov are trying to replace a calibrator, that's that's just them not having the understanding of what that tool could offer them, right?
00:57:53.119 -->
00:57:55.840So, yeah, that's that's where we stand on the subject, I guess.
00:57:55.920 -->
00:58:02.880So I mean we've all tried to or we all have created graphics through um Chat GPT or something like that.
00:58:02.960 -->
00:58:08.079And you do sometimes do so many prompts, you think this would have been easier for me to make it in Photoshop.
00:58:08.320 -->
00:58:17.440Um so you know, you have got that scenario where I think, yeah, people should look at it, especially at the moment, that AI is a helper.
00:58:17.599 -->
00:58:50.239It is your it is the thing that prop prompts you to do this, it sends your news in the morning without knowing that what you normally like to read, and and it's gonna give you the I suppose you know it's gonna switch night mode on for you potentially, you know, when because it knows that 90% of the time when you watch something, it like you watch it in night mode, or you know, if you're if you're gonna input certain complex commands which might be to do on a laptop, it might be able to do it for you, as you say, turn the center channel up for me, you know, enhance the dialogue for me.
00:58:50.639 -->
00:59:01.679But again, it's not gonna it's not gonna help you install the product, it's not gonna help you calibrate the product, it's not gonna help you upgrade the product from a two-sub waveforward system to a four-sub waveforward system.
00:59:01.920 -->
00:59:05.920Well, you say that, but you know, as an as an integrator, again, you could ask it that question.
00:59:06.079 -->
00:59:15.440You know, you you could put in the room parameters and and say, you know, potentially what could be the benefit of doing this, this, or this, and then come back with some some very interesting answers.
00:59:15.599 -->
00:59:30.239But what I always say with AI, um, and my approach to AI when I when I use it myself is that I know what I want to achieve, and I and I know what the end goal is, whether it's um a piece of writing, I know what I want to say.
00:59:30.480 -->
00:59:37.679I may not know how to say it in whatever context I'm writing for, but I know fundamentally the facts that I I need to get across.
00:59:37.920 -->
00:59:40.800If you're using AI, you know, I see it, we see it all the time.
00:59:40.880 -->
00:59:49.119You know, you look at the social media stuff of a picture of a cinema and the sofa's facing backwards, it's like, well, yeah, you know, I see what you're trying to do there.
00:59:49.199 -->
01:00:07.920You're trying to be efficient with your time, trying to make a nice graphic, but you know, you've got to understand the end result and check the work of the AI, make sure it's done what you need it, what you expect it to have done to get the result that you need, you know, and and and that's that's the key with it.
01:00:08.000 -->
01:00:19.199It doesn't replace intelligence, it doesn't replace knowledge, it it only enhances what we already know and you know um adds a bit of extra extra layer to it.
01:00:19.440 -->
01:00:24.719And that I mean that's just the way I see things, but um, you know, it's it's worked well for me so far.
01:00:24.800 -->
01:00:27.679So it it is all to do with the prompts that you put in, isn't it?
01:00:27.760 -->
01:00:50.960Uh we had a a a beautiful sort of like eight-seater cinema room, which I just wanted to add a few sort of images on there, and that the further I sort of went down the sort of the rabbit hole, the worse it it got, but it didn't realise that it was getting worse and adding things that I didn't want, and it even put like a a centre speaker under like a 130-inch screen that we had, and I and that wasn't in there, it was like a nice little fabric wall kind of thing.
01:00:51.039 -->
01:00:57.039So, but but David, was uh AI used in the the uh two two sub-waveforming uh scenario?
01:00:57.440 -->
01:00:59.039Do you know what I can't answer that question?
01:00:59.199 -->
01:01:00.480Um I actually don't know.
01:01:00.639 -->
01:01:01.599I would imagine so.
01:01:02.239 -->
01:01:03.039Just to help out a little bit.
01:01:03.840 -->
01:01:10.000Well, the research the research team are using are using AI for for for all sorts of different things.
01:01:10.159 -->
01:01:16.320Um so yeah, I'd I'd like to think it has been because you know we've we've we've been you know, we're not new to adopting this.
01:01:16.480 -->
01:01:21.840It was uh it was we're we're we're always as as technology innovators, we're always early adopters of these things.
01:01:21.920 -->
01:01:24.960And you know, whether we unleash that on the public or not's a different question.
01:01:25.119 -->
01:01:29.599But you know, we we we we adopt these things very early on because we have to.
01:01:29.679 -->
01:01:43.920You know, if if you're gonna stay at the front of the game, which um you know we like to think that we are, um you've you've got to embrace these uh these new technologies as they come along, whether it be AI or whether it be you know another transmission technology.
01:01:44.079 -->
01:01:51.840I mean, let's let's not start talking about um the next evolution of HDMI, you know, that let's let's not open that can of worms.
01:01:51.920 -->
01:02:02.320But you know, as an example, you know, we've we've we've got to start thinking five, ten years ahead um when we're developing products to say, well, you know, it's got to be compatible with what's coming in the future.
01:02:02.559 -->
01:02:13.679And you know, if TVs of tomorrow start coming out with USB-C interfaces instead of HDMI, which is going to happen, we need to have transport technologies that can work with that media.
01:02:13.840 -->
01:02:19.199So yeah, it's it's i i i it's part of our our day-to-day.
01:02:19.519 -->
01:02:26.960So so so looking into the future with our crystal ball, have we got any exciting new products coming from Trenov?
01:02:27.360 -->
01:02:32.320Do you know anything on the the grapevine that we might be seeing something new in 2027?
01:02:32.480 -->
01:02:39.440Or so with with our development cycle where we are at the moment, um we've we've our next development is coming into pro audio.
01:02:39.679 -->
01:02:44.960So we've got we've got um you know new products coming for pro audio, um, and then we can revisit residential.
01:02:45.039 -->
01:02:54.960We we're doing a lot in in conjunct you know, in at the same time, you know, these these these developments on the hardware side, they can they can uh exist um codependently.
01:02:55.199 -->
01:02:58.480Um the software side, you know, that that takes a lot longer.
01:02:58.559 -->
01:03:14.400But the the amalgamation of the of the software platform, um, you know, when it comes to altitude 16 and 32, once everything's running on the same platform, that accelerates our development because we're no longer maintaining two platforms, um, so to speak.
01:03:14.559 -->
01:03:16.880So yeah, we we've got a lot, we've got a lot coming.
01:03:16.960 -->
01:03:23.039Um, we've got plans, we've got ideas, um, some further forward, some some further in the distance than others.
01:03:23.119 -->
01:03:34.559But um, yeah, I've got nothing to announce for you today, so no, no um particular nuggets other than what we've mentioned with two subway forming, which was only released two weeks ago, so we can still consider that a uh a new release.
01:03:34.719 -->
01:03:39.920Um, but yeah, rest assured, um, I'll be banging on your door when I've got something interesting to say.
01:03:40.719 -->
01:03:43.280So, where can we see Trinov next?
01:03:43.360 -->
01:03:47.679I mean, obviously, I hate to say it, guys, but it's only five months till ISE 2027.
01:03:47.760 -->
01:03:54.239Yeah, and then and then in a few weeks, I think end of October, we got the Paris Hi-Fi show, which I'm due to go out at.
01:03:54.320 -->
01:03:54.559Yeah.
01:03:54.719 -->
01:03:57.679Um, so are Trinov going to be at both of those?
01:03:57.760 -->
01:04:02.400If if we have shows in Europe, where can people catch up with representatives from Trinov?
01:04:02.639 -->
01:04:03.679Yeah, so we're all over the place.
01:04:03.760 -->
01:04:06.800So my colleague Alex is at the Monica Boat Show um this week.
01:04:06.880 -->
01:04:10.159Um, we've we've got shows out in in Asia.
01:04:10.320 -->
01:04:15.360Um, you know, Tom's Tom's out in Australia, I think, for the stereo net show.
01:04:15.440 -->
01:04:18.079So that there's there's all sorts of things going on.
01:04:18.320 -->
01:04:33.920Um, sadly in the UK, um, you know, with the with the demise of of EI Live, and I do say sadly, because you know, we we uh and this is a bit of a plea to all of the listeners out there to please support these shows that are going on because it it's vital for us as manufacturers.
01:04:34.000 -->
01:04:44.000Um, you know, we have our fantastic distribution networks, we have fantastic media via podcasts, via the internet, via whatever, uh, webinars, whatever, to get our information out there.
01:04:44.079 -->
01:04:50.079But but talking face to face and and um having these interactions with you guys is so, so important to us.
01:04:50.159 -->
01:04:57.440So if you see these events popping up, we we really we really would like to encourage you to to support them, whatever they are, whether we're involved or not.
01:04:57.519 -->
01:05:06.000I think it's um firstly absolutely vital for the for the continuation and development of the industry for us all to be uh supportive of these shows.
01:05:06.239 -->
01:05:19.280Um so uh that being said, the next event that you'll see uh us at, in terms of um myself and my colleague Ian, is at the Monitor Audio um CI Connect event on the uh 7th.
01:05:19.519 -->
01:05:21.920Yeah, 7th of October, which is the Wednesday.
01:05:22.000 -->
01:05:30.960This uh it was going to be a Thursday as well, but they've sort of combined it into one day, so uh less time, less time away from the desk, I think was the uh the the idea.
01:05:31.280 -->
01:05:34.320Yeah, I uh and you know that everybody's time is valuable.
01:05:34.400 -->
01:05:47.280You know, it's um you know but uh you know taking uh half a day a day out of your your schedule um to come and learn something, come and see something, come and interact with uh partners, it it's absolutely key.
01:05:47.360 -->
01:05:52.880You know, we're we're we're very guilty of getting stuck in this bubble of you know, we've been doing it this way for so long.
01:05:52.960 -->
01:05:56.079But again, as a manufacturer, we have to look at what's out there.
01:05:56.159 -->
01:05:59.840And as integrators, you absolutely have to look at what's out there and know what's out there.
01:06:00.239 -->
01:06:09.360um so that you can specify um you know what you need the right tools for the job and you don't know what you don't know at the end of the day.
01:06:09.519 -->
01:06:23.440Um you know there's a huge amount of knowledge out there but you know I I go and visit people with 20, 30 years experience in the industry and still teach them something new and we should all be open to that and uh you know receptive to uh to to what's new out there.
01:06:23.599 -->
01:06:38.480So yeah please um come and see uh the guys down at Monitor Audio come and see Ian um keep him busy I'm gonna be on holiday so um make make make sure he's doing some work um which he will be and know knowing Ian he absolutely will be um and yeah yeah we'd we'd love to see you.
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01:07:24.800Well I think it's that classic case of it's like this is an old analogy if you don't use it you lose it and and we were we were there at the end of the noughties where we we didn't use it and we lost it and and it it was brought back several years later and unfortunately we've now lost that one for perceivable future so it's very important that you know you unfortunately have to down the tools every now and again but don't look about don't look at it as lost revenue and and annoying your clients just look at it as a day of educational a bit of networking and and you never know you enter a competition you can win something you're you're you'll maybe get invited to things that you would never got invited to how how you might get invited to Paris trade off Paris when it opens by going to the Monoff audio event you you will do.
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01:07:44.639We gotta get the numbers in yeah if if you build it they will come right and you know and it it's very difficult for us as as as manufacturers and distributors and you know to to to invest in these events um with the uncertainty of of of what we're gonna get back.
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01:08:04.960You know nobody um measures event success by return on investment that's just it just doesn't exist you know but you also have to be sensible and you know if if if the integrators aren't and and end users as well you know it's um I'm not blaming anybody you know if anybody's not showing up to these sort of events then they're just not going to happen.
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01:08:14.239You know and it's it's great that Monaster audio have um you know stepped into those shoes and and put on a uh event that's that's genuinely valuable for um for the industry.
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01:08:16.800So yeah more more of that I I hope to see.
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01:08:25.760Excellent so well look let's wrap up the podcast um is there anything else you wanted to touch on David before we before we wrap up and say goodbye?
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01:09:23.039I think just you know keep keep an eye out keep an eye on your inbox um you know we're we're we're upping our communications we're we're doing a lot with training at the moment so um Ian and I have been working a lot on um on the training platform we're um developing a lot of new um tutorials in particular um sort of you know we we're training is is is key but uh you know as I've mentioned as as things develop you need to take those bite-sized chunks and make them available to people and that's absolutely what we're doing um you know more tutorial based training um on top of the certification that we already offer um so if you're not signed up to uh uh our newsletters make sure that you that you are obviously we'll be pushing those out to our distribution partners who will then uh push it onto you guys so yeah um just just keep your ear to the ground and and keep your eyes open and uh yeah we'll be we're we're always here if you if you have any questions so yeah just just reach out to us.
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01:09:43.359And obviously you've got the website at trinov.com which is a I mean I was on there this morning obviously reading the blog for the new waveforming standards and there doesn't seem to be a couple of days that go past where something's not being put up there whether it's residential or pro audio or or research and development.
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01:09:47.199So that's a very good port of core and a good and a good afternoon read.
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01:09:56.560Yeah absolutely and you know if you if you if you want to um take those articles and be clever with them you know put it into something like notebook LM and it will turn it into a podcast for you.
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01:11:34.079So you know again keeping on the AI thread it can be really helpful you know I I'm same as same as you both I listen to podcasts when I'm in the car or when I'm traveling um I take a PDF I throw it in notebook LM and it and it spits out a two-way conversational podcast um I find that a much better way of consuming media than uh reading I I read obviously but you know I I prefer to ingest my media that way let's put it that way um so yeah you know it's much more convenient when I'm on the move so so yeah and on that note make sure you listen to the InsideCI Daily podcast on all good podcast platforms which is our our AI podcast where again we understand and and like me I generally don't read a lot I mean I read more now because I'm reading what Steve said to me but you know we we put quite a lot of uh our articles into 11 labs I think it is and it and it does it as reads it for you so that way you can listen to it in a van you can listen to it on site because again as an integrator I know where I listen to it so uh but um excellent chats well look thank you very much for joining us um it's been great to speak to you David um and uh yeah we we look forward to seeing you uh obviously not at uh CI Connect but probably ISD oh god yeah I mean I you know I'm I'm in Italy not next week it is next week actually yeah um so we'll be uh we'll be working on what's coming for ISD so yeah um we look forward to seeing you all there please make the trip across to Barcelona um for the good of the industry um and for for your own benefit and um yeah I look forward to seeing you again and thanks for having me back on.
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01:11:42.560Excellent David thank you very much and thank you Simon also for joining us no problem thanks for having us and uh yeah look forward to seeing everybody at monitor audio and uh seeing turn off there.
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01:11:43.600It'd be good to see you guys.
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01:11:46.479Excellent thank you guys thank you very much and we'll speak to you soon.
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01:11:46.720Cheers.
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01:11:47.520Cheers guys
