Pat Conrad

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Hello, and welcome to the Scientess Podcast, where we talk to women with successful scientific careers about the joys of science.
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I'm your host, Karen Levy, an environmental health scientist at the School of Public Health at University of Washington in Seattle.
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I'm excited to share with you the stories of some pretty incredible women on this podcast.
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My hope is that these interviews will show aspiring young scientists that a career in science is not only possible, but can also be extremely rewarding and a whole lot of fun.
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Let's jump in with today's featured scientists.
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Dr.
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Pat Conrad is distinguished professor emerita in the pathology, microbiology, and immunology department at UC Davis's School of Veterinary Medicine, which consistently ranks as one of the top veterinary schools in the world.
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She retired in 2021 after a storied career studying the transmission of protozoal parasites between wildlife, humans, and domestic animals.
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This means that for 33 years on the faculty, she ran around California and other parts of the world chasing down cattle, dairy cows, sea otters, dogs, and other animals to learn about the parasites that they carry and how environmental conditions affect their ability to infect others.
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She's an elected member of the National Academy of Medicine, was a fellow at both the American Academy of Microbiology and American Association for the Advancement of Science, and is an honorary member of the American College of Veterinary Microbiology.
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She's published more than 250 scientific papers and served as the Associate Dean for Global Programs and as co-director of the system-wide 10-campus UC Global Health Institute.
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Her team research and collaboration with agencies across California led to the 2007 Sea Otter Bill that focuses on safeguarding the health of both sea otters and humans by protecting marine environments.
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I won't list all of her awards, but a couple highlights include the American Veterinary Medical Association Lifetime Excellence and Research Award in 2017, the UC Davis Chancellor's Award for International Engagement in 2018, and an honorary doctorate from the University of Edinburgh, which I just learned is different from getting your PhD there.
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These accolades across human medicine, veterinary medicine, and microbiology demonstrate her transdisciplinary approach to a research field that we now know as One Health, which addresses the interconnectedness of humans, animals, and the environment.
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But when she was coming up, this term did not really exist, and she had to innovate to bring these fields together.
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Pat, welcome to the Scientists Podcast.
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Thank you, Karen.
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As you know, you hold a very special honor as the original inspiration for this podcast.
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Back in 2009, when I was a postdoc at Stanford, I coordinated a lecture series on the ecology of infectious diseases where I got to invite people in the field who I admired to give lectures at the Woods Institute for the Environment.
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I invited you and hosted you on campus, which meant that I got to spend the day walking you around to various meetings.
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I think that you had two sons attending Stanford at the time, who you had raised as a single mom.
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And at the time I had interviews lined up for assistant professor faculty positions, but I wasn't sure I wanted to go forward with an academic career because I knew that I wanted to have a family.
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When I mentioned my concerns to you, you looked at me like I was crazy.
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And you said, Are you kidding me?
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This is the best possible job for raising a family.
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You can work whenever you want, you can take time whenever you want, you have autonomy.
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And that conversation completely flipped the script from me.
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Until then, the dominant narrative had been that it would be enormously challenging to have an academic career and have a family.
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The conversation stayed with me as I started my career and had my own kids, and it became a seed of an idea for this podcast to share this perspective with others.
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So thank you very much for that little nugget, which you probably forgot all about, but was enormously influential for me.
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And now your LinkedIn profile lists you as retired and living joyously, but I think you lived pretty joyously before your retirement.
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So I have some questions for you.
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So let's jump in.
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I want to know first: when did you decide to become a scientist?
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Oh, good start question.
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So, as you mentioned, my life goal was to become a veterinarian, practicing veterinarian.
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I mean, from the time I was eight, that's not unusual.
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I never intended to be a scientist, especially a researcher, but midway through my senior of veterinary school at Colorado State University, I took the first vacation that I ever had with my older brother.
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We went up and we stopped off in the Grand Tetons, and I was sitting there.
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This is building to an aha moment that changed my life.
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Okay.
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And my brother, who'd been taking care of our family for seven years since my father lost his job, I said, Hey, I'm coming back.
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I'm going to vet school.
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I'll be done.
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He said, Nope, Pat, I'm good.
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I'm taking care of the family and I'm enjoying it.
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You can do whatever you want.
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And yeah, I think for the first time since I was eight years old, opened up to what else did I want?
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Now I'm not going to tell you I thought scientist.
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So were you thinking you want to be a vet because you thought it was lucrative or because I loved animals.
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I loved animals.
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I loved problem solving.
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And the veterinarians that I knew were some of the greatest people that I was around.
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I mean, I I liked them, I hate to say this, better than the medical people I knew at the time.
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So that it was this opening up to what, you know, what could I do?
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I'm still sure I was gonna go to vet school.
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I mean to finish the end of vet school.
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And what came was I need to go and live in another country.
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And that was the beginning, taking a break instead of going to vet school to uh oh, I went to the University of Edinburgh to do a course with a Marshall Scholarship from the British government to study anything I wanted for anywhere I wanted for a year, and right into the first quarter of that course one of the faculty gave a talk about a parasite.
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I never intended to be a parasitologist, but a parasite that affected ticks and then transmitted to cattle and infected lymphocytes and transformed them like tumor cells to continue multiplying and killed almost all the cattle that infected that were susceptible.
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What was the name of the parasite?
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The parasite was Tyleria parva and the disease was East Coast fever.
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And I was fascinated.
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So this whole idea of ever doing something besides being a veterinarian, I think the seed was sown by this little parasite because I was so fascinated.
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I had so many questions.
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I quit the course, I started to work in a research lab.
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I'll cut to the chase.
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I hated it.
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I hated research.
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And the parasite was fascinating.
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The questions were, but being in a lab, looking down a microscope, you know, this was not what I wanted to do for a life.
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What was it that was fascinating about it?
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Oh, how did a parasite get into a lymphocyte and transform it into a lymphoblast and immortalize it so it kept multiplying?
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How did that happen?
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You know, and then the mechanism of how it caused death, the other thing was that we might possibly be able to develop a vaccine against it, you know.
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That all intrigued me.
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But it was the science and the outcomes of the infections or like was it?
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It was the question, it was it was a fascination, all the questions that arose from the more I learned about this parasite, the more I wanted to know.
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Okay.
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And then the possibility of really doing something useful, helpful by developing a vaccine.
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I think that was it.
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And also having the freedom to do whatever I wanted, that was made clear that you know I had the funding from Marshall Scholarship.
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So what do I want to do?
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Which was frightening.
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You come out of vet school, I mean that's yeah, you're not prepared to what do I want to do.
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So I was fascinated, I was curious.
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That was all.
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I knew there was something special there, but it just it wasn't fun to be in a lab.
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So the part you didn't like was the lab.
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Yeah, and being on my own doing this.
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So then where did you go from there?
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So then when I was ready, I got a PhD, less than three years, thank goodness to the British.
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Doing the lab work.
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Yes.
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I see.
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And writing a very thick thesis of negative results.
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And then I'm ready to go back to Colorado and start my veterinary practice when I got offered a position as a postdoc at an international research laboratory in Kenya.
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I mean, in a chance to go to Kenya, you know, I mean, I'm not going to get that again.
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So I thought, well, I'll do that, even if I don't like the science.
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So this is where things changed.
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Because I got there and for the first time I experienced what it was like to be working on a really important problem with other people, people from different countries, different disciplines, this sort of I would call team research, if you will, and generating those ideas and working with this incredible group and yeah, and doing things I never imagined.
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And so you were the parasitologist on the team?
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Yeah.
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I was the person that knew the most about the parasite.
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And what did the other people know about?
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Oh, gosh, everything.
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Molecular biology, epidemiology, electromicroscopy, a lot of different techniques, biochemistry, vaccinology, all of these different backgrounds I had no exposure to.
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Were there any social scientists at the time?
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Unfortunately, that hadn't begun yet.
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Soon after, you know, sort of as I'm transitioning out, that CGIR institute, it was called the IlRAD, or it's now ILRI in Kenya.
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They got more and more engaged in the social sciences.
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But that was unfortunate, that was not out engaging with the people as much as some of the other what we call cigar consultative group on international agricultural research labs.
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So yeah, that's unfortunate.
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ILRI, I'll just say stands for the International Livestock Research Institute.
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Now, correct.
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Yes, exactly.
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And it's still there in Kenya.
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So that is where I really had fun.
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And I knew if asking questions and pondering the questions of others and working together and learning all of these different perspectives, if that's what research is about, if that's how you can do it, I'm in.
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I loved it.
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And how did you go from there, from your position at Ilri or Ilrad at the time, to like what happened next?
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Well, so I was in my fourth year of a postdoc, and uh and I was offered a scientist position too, not long after that.
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But I overheard a couple guys talking about, oh, did you see there's a position for a parasitologist at U UC Davis?
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And I thought, huh.
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And uh that was not our intent.
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My husband at the time we were planning on going to West Africa, but I I was curious.
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And I'd been to Davis once before when I was 18 years old.
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I went for a raptor rehabilitation symposium and raptors, like birds like hawks and eagles.
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Yeah, we have a great raptor rehabilitation center here.
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I just remember when I went through the town, I thought this would be I felt more than thought.
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This would be a great place to raise a family.
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Which Yes, Davis, crazy.
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I was 18 years old.
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I was planning on being a veterinarian.
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I had a lot ahead of me.
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I wanted someday to have children like you, but that was a long ways away.
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But I remembered that feeling when I saw the ad.
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Could have helped that I was pregnant at the time.
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You were pre you were pregnant when you saw the ad and you applied for this.
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Okay.
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And I applied for the the position.
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So you had this seasonal idea that'd be a good place to raise my kids.
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Yeah, a feeling, actually.
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I don't even know if it got to my head, but it was yeah, it was a feeling.
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And so I applied, didn't hear anything from them for months, but I knew they were already interviewing people, and so I didn't think there was much of a chance, and then I got invited for an interview, and I came.
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And then you got the job.
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Well, which is good to hear.
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That's the amazing part of this.
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Is so I wanted to come back and see what Davis was like, and I knew it was a great vet school, but I had three publications from my PhD.
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My first postdoc publication had been submitted.
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We'd been busy doing rather than writing.
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So I pitched up and uh I I didn't have to sell myself because I didn't have a lot to sell.
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I thought I was interested in what everybody else was doing.
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Anyway, whatever the reason was, they asked me if I would take the position.
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You told me earlier, so I'm just gonna bring this in, that they offered you the position before you even gave your seminar.
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Yeah, I don't know if we're supposed to confess that.
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No, sorry.
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I know that took that out.
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No, no, it's been a long time.
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I think I just clicked personality-wise with people, and it wasn't like the analysis that people go through today, but I think it is a good lesson that sometimes if the right chemistry is there, if it's the right person for what is needed for the department or whatever it was, it turned out to be, you know, to their advantage as well as mine.
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What do you think they liked about you?
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I think because I was curious about what everybody else was doing and I was very keen on collaborating.
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And I was a cowgirl, actually went to college on a rodeo scholarship.
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So I think that they liked that I related to large animals and and could do that part of the job.
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Yeah, I'm not quite sure what it was, but it was definitely, yeah, it was a click.
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What's a rodeo scholarship?
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So it's when this was a junior college in southeastern Colorado that had offered me a scholarship as a not a barrel racer.
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I didn't do that, calf roping and goat tying.
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Something I, you know, kind of keep close to but in Colorado at the time, you know, Little Bridges Rodeo, I'd done that to get a college scholarship.
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And it turned out to be the best decision to go there rather than Colorado State at the beginning, because the first year I was in college, my father lost his job, and my older brother had to quit college and come back, and uh, he supported the family, and I was gonna quit, but they said no, don't do that.
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They rallied around and got me the financial aid.
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Big fan of financial aid here myself.
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I wouldn't be where I am now and helping the people I have been able to help with that that program.
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Sounds like your brother also was pretty helpful.
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Yes.
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And I just had a chance to see him last week and thank him one more time.
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That's amazing.
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So what is it that excites you about your science and how has it changed over time?
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Like you talk about the beginning when you got excited about that.
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Has that changed over time and evolved, or is it still fundamentally the same drivers?
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I say this to a lot of young people.
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If you're considering getting a PhD, you know, you should follow your passion, all right?
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Work on something you really, really love.
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Well, once I came to Davis, I knew I couldn't work on East Coast fever anymore because it didn't occur to the United States.
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We weren't even allowed to bring in slides that had the parasite, if you couldn't believe that.
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They were so concerned about it.
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So when I arrived here, I had no idea what I was gonna do for research.
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I'd never written a grant.
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I'd never taught a class.
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Yeah, I was just completely fresh.
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But fortunately, the problems came to me.
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You know, the slide from a dog in Southern California, they thought, ah, what's this parasite on there?
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Turned out to be a Babesia that later got named after me, if you can believe that.
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Babesia Conradia or something.
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Yeah, so cool.
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But I always say that's because the graduate student who named it was making the point that if we have like 15 years of papers on what we thought was Babesia Gibson, I only for molecular characterization to show that's not what it was.
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It was something different.
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So she named it after me just to show, you know, you can get it wrong.
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Everybody can get it wrong.
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So I'm quite proud of that for that reason.
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And then we worked with the CDC and the Mao Clinic and Harvard on discovering another parasite in humans that was a Babesia too, that we could name after my former PhD mentor.
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And so it's called Babesia Dunkin' Eye.
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So that that's the fun part, you know, right there.
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So that came along.
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Then shortly after that, I mean the same year, I came in January and in April the pathologists in the state diagnostic lab came over and said, Hey, we hear you're a protozoologist.
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We want you to look at these slides.
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And so I did, and it turned out it was a parasite that looked like toxoplasma that you know about.
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You invited me to give the talk.
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And but it wasn't, it was another parasite, it was a closely related Neospora.
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So we were on the the ground floor of isolating this parasite for the first time, tissue culture, that's what I'd learned in Edinburgh, and then a lot of work that was done around Neospora.
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And so, yeah, so uh the whole host range of some of these parasites aren't known.
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I love that about protozoology.
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I never thought I'd be a parasitologist.
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We won't go into those reasons why.
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Never, ever.
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But the thing about protozoa is there's so much to be discovered, so much that we don't know.
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So discovering new species or challenging the dogma, what people think they know about these parasites, is just it's tremendous fun, you know.
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So I hope some of your listeners get interested in protozoa because single-celled parasites.
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People always ask me as a veterinarian.
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So, what animals do you work on?
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And I'm proud to say the smallest of all animals, single-celled.
00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:53.680
That's awesome.
00:17:54.000 --> 00:18:03.839
So it sounds like you enjoy that part of the protozoology and you're proud of having some new species named after you and your colleagues.
00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:07.680
What else are you most proud about of your career?
00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:12.240
Oh, without a doubt, the people that I work with, the young people, all right.
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:21.599
The real joy of my professional career has been people like you, people that in your case, I just made one statement and it had an impact.
00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:27.119
So, and I'm sure that this podcast will have an impact with all the wonderful people that you're interviewing.
00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:40.960
So I think the young people that I might have an opportunity to inspire or help, or you know, especially as people gain the confidence to go forward with their own ideas, that is tremendous.
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:50.960
And then when you see them getting out in the world and the jobs that they wanted, and those could be a whole wide variety of different jobs, as long as they're doing what they love.
00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:58.240
At the end of my career, I did probably have more female graduate students that were veterinarians because we had the funding to support them.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:02.640
And now to see them in leadership positions is just yeah, amazing.
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:05.039
So that's the greatest joy from my career.
00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:13.680
I will also say that I have a friend in a sort of unrelated field is in the school of education who showed up at UC Davis and you mentored her as well.
00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:15.359
And in you know, you supported her.
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:17.839
So it says it's not just limited to your own students.
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:29.759
Yeah, I'm one of the rare people when I retired, you know, that I retired when I was 66 because people love their job at Davis and oftentimes don't want to, but I said, I don't want a job, I don't want to be hired.
00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:31.599
But mentorship is the one thing.
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:34.720
If I can help someone in that way, yeah, give me a call.
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:35.119
Yeah.
00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:36.799
That goes for you too.
00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:37.920
Yeah, thank you.
00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:51.200
I just might so I am wondering, can you point to a time when you had to overcome a challenge commonly faced by women in science, specifically women, and talk about how you overcame?
00:19:51.680 --> 00:20:05.599
Well, I don't know if this is entirely women, but I think probably the greatest challenge of my personal life that I think women, you know, some men, but you know, we do face oftentimes was the uh unexpected end of my marriage.
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:16.400
That was at a time where I had a reasonably big lab and I had people that were counting on me, staff and students, and then two sons who were six and eight years old.
00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:21.039
And as I said, I had no preparation for that.
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:24.960
It was the most traumatic, painful experience of my life.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:30.559
And in some ways, having these responsibilities kept me going.
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:32.559
But yeah, I think that's the biggest challenge.
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:38.880
I think a lot of times people, women maybe particularly, have these incredible challenges.
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:52.640
And we want to do right for everybody, for our family, for ourselves, but we also want to do what we feel we want to do and maybe need to do for all of the people that we support as scientists.
00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:54.480
How did you get through that challenge?
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:56.000
Get a good therapist.
00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:58.400
My ex-husband, pay for that, actually.
00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.200
Get a good therapist.
00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:02.720
Okay, so valuable.
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:04.559
I am a big fan of therapy.
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:09.200
And sometimes you can find at universities, they have facilities that can support that.
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:14.240
But most importantly, prioritize your own mental and physical health.
00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:24.720
And I think that's something that we as women, whatever the circumstances, and hopefully none of your listeners have a tragedy like this, but at all different levels, we sometimes lose track.
00:21:24.720 --> 00:21:33.920
We're so concerned about keeping the boat afloat and all the people that we may neglect our own personal care, which is mental and physical.
00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:35.440
So yeah, I did that.
00:21:35.440 --> 00:21:39.440
I started weightlifting, I did African dancing a little bit on the side.
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:44.160
I didn't have a lot of extra time, you can imagine, but taking care of yourself is so important.
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:49.920
That is a super m important point, and it's something that I ask everybody is how do you do self care?
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.319
So it's great that you went there.
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:55.119
So you were having this traumatic experience.
00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:58.240
How did you did you share that with other people?
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:00.880
Like, how did you deal with the Vulnerability.
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:02.480
Oh, good point.
00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:10.640
I remember sitting on an airplane, because although I was like clinically depressed, I guess, by diagnosis, you know, I could still get up and give talks.
00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:12.240
I couldn't make any decisions.
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:14.960
Fortunately, I had other people that were doing great.
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:23.200
And that's the advantage, can I say, of a team approach is that this was not about Pat, Pat's lab, Pat's ideas.
00:22:23.200 --> 00:22:24.480
We were a team.
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:30.400
So my staff always, and my students and postdocs, and everybody, we're in this together.
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:32.960
So they just kept functioning.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:36.480
I sat next to a guy once in the plane and he said, you know, it's real important.
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:43.359
He didn't know my situation, but he gave lectures around how you should share your personal situation with your work fellows and all.
00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:46.400
And I thought, whoa, I was not doing that.
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:47.599
I could not do that.
00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:51.680
Okay, because it was just yeah, it was too hard.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:54.319
You didn't share it with your colleagues or you didn't share it with your team?
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:56.160
I didn't share it with anybody.
00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:59.759
It was just too I couldn't, yeah, it was too much.
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:07.440
And people I couldn't I couldn't deal with their response, which would have been sympathy and then, you know, anger at the other person and all.
00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:08.240
So it was hard.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:09.039
Therapy.
00:23:09.119 --> 00:23:09.680
Get therapy.
00:23:09.680 --> 00:23:10.000
Yeah.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:14.880
So you put your head down and you just sort of like No, I oh no, I didn't do that.
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:21.119
I think I was I wasn't sharing what it was, but I was supporting what people were doing.
00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:21.599
Okay.
00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:22.720
So I was present.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:24.559
I wasn't as connected.
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:35.279
I look back at the graduate students that I had during that period, and I realize I don't have the personal relationships with them that I had with the students that came before or after.
00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:37.440
And that was, and I think this was part of it.
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:38.880
So you have to take care of yourself.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:39.759
Exactly.
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:40.400
I guess.
00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:41.759
But it's still kind of sad.
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:48.720
So yeah, I'm not saying people should do it the way that I did it, but everybody, yeah, has to find their own path.
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:50.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.119
And I survived.
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:52.799
And you had two young children.
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:53.359
Yes.
00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:55.359
So tell me about your children.
00:23:55.359 --> 00:24:00.319
Where were you in your career stage when you had kids and how did you make that work?
00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:01.599
Okay, yeah.
00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:06.720
I, like you, always wanted to have a family, didn't know when that was gonna fit in.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:11.759
So when we came to Davis, which was uh a bit, you know, there were they weren't in a rush.
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:21.519
I finished up a lot of things at Ilrad before I left, you know, which ended up with 17 papers from my postdoc, okay, from this a big advantage of team research.
00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:21.920
Okay.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:31.519
So when we came to Davis, Alex, my oldest son, who was born in Kenya at Nairobi National Hospital, he was three months old.
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:36.480
And then I had Ian two and a half years later, just before I got tenure.
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:37.680
Just before you got tenure.
00:24:37.680 --> 00:24:38.960
Yes, just before I got tenure.
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:39.359
Yeah.
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:39.759
Wow.
00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:40.720
That's very fast.
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.480
Because you were pregnant when you interviewed.
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:43.200
Yes.
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:47.200
And then he was two and what did you say two when you already got tenure?
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:47.839
Yes.
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:48.880
That's very fast.
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:49.759
Yes.
00:24:49.759 --> 00:24:51.039
And how did that happen?
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:51.440
Yes.
00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:51.839
Okay.
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:52.240
Exactly.
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:53.519
So how did that happen?
00:24:53.519 --> 00:25:02.640
And you're talking about the person who arrived here and had no research plan, had never written a grant, had never taught a class.
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:03.039
Okay.
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:09.759
So this I hope is seen as not that I'm so special, but this is the joy of collaboration and teamwork.
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:20.000
And yeah, we were able on our promotions and we have a peer review system, but you can include the publications that were from the last time you were evaluated.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:25.599
And so when I got the job, I only had three papers and one submitted.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:28.240
And then all these other papers came, okay.
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:30.000
From that custom.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.680
And then the starting work that we had had begun to do.
00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:33.920
Okay.
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:38.400
But we were doing that on like $3,000, $5,000.
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:41.279
We had no big grants initially.
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:45.039
And my first two graduate students worked for free.
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:48.240
I mean, I had no money to pay them, but they wanted a mentor.
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:49.920
So we pieced it together.
00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:56.720
That's why I'm telling you that sometimes, and maybe in these trouble times that we're in right now, you have to piece things together.
00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:11.039
And then relevant to our discussion here about women, one of the things I'm really thankful for is that early on in the first couple of years, I went to a women's event with two female administrators encouraging women scientists.
00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:14.720
They said, We want to tell you about acceleration.
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:15.279
Okay.
00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:20.160
So accelerating through the review system and promotion system.
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:24.079
And they said, you can do this and this, but you have to ask for it.
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:26.319
And women usually don't ask.
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:29.279
And so I think this is one of the challenges that we have.
00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:34.000
We don't want to push too hard that we might offend somebody else.
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:35.200
We want to fit in.
00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:43.680
But they were so encouraging about it that I actually in my next packet, I said, Hey, you know, can I accelerate this?
00:26:43.680 --> 00:26:46.799
And at the time I was told, Oh no, no.
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:47.920
I remember it well thing.
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:49.359
No, that no.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:50.720
We those are really rare.
00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:52.160
I mean, you have to walk on water.
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:59.359
No, I I don't think and I said, Well, how about I put the packet together and give it to you and then see what you think?
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:00.319
And I did.
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:04.960
I didn't know if it was good enough, but they looked at it and go, Yeah, I think so.
00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:05.519
Okay.
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:09.200
So they put it forward in, yeah, that's how I got accelerated down.
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:10.000
That's amazing.
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:15.440
So it was sort of this network of women who pushed you and gave you the confidence to ask for what?
00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:16.160
Yes.
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:16.799
All of us.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:17.279
Yeah.
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:24.319
And and I think that we as women, we need to do this and also support men that do this also with us.
00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:27.279
But we have to take responsibility to support each other.
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:33.359
And when there are things like this, like don't undervalue yourself when you're doing a startup package.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:36.000
I didn't ask for hardly anything on the startup package.
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:37.200
I didn't know that I could.
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:47.519
So to encourage women, especially when it comes to startups and salaries, and when it comes up to advancement, promotion, you know, all of these things.
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:53.279
It's my observation that oftentimes women are amongst the first to say, oh, that's okay.
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:55.599
You know, it's more important that I fit in here.
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:55.839
All right.
00:27:55.839 --> 00:28:06.640
They're thinking that if they don't say that, when really I believe we need to encourage each other as a support team to go for for what you deserve, what's best for you.
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:07.519
Give it a shot.
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:08.559
Take a chance.
00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:09.039
Yeah?
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:11.039
Yeah, and it is true that it's not just women.
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:18.960
There's also other people who are underrepresented in science, just more generally, who don't feel like it's coming to them and they have to be encouraged to ask for it.
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:22.240
Yeah, and it even could be men in our current environment.
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:34.559
You know, I have two sons, and I think a lot of times people just different personalities, they may not realize that they are more valued and valuable than they are acknowledging.
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:35.920
And we need to support each other.
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:37.119
I guess that's that's it.
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:38.400
You don't have to pick it out.
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:40.079
Let's let's all support each other.
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:40.400
Yeah.
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:41.359
Does that make sense?
00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:45.440
Yeah, that you don't have to necessarily be the one who's like, I'm gonna go for this.
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:54.880
Like you if that doesn't come naturally to you, take the advice of somebody else who encourages you to go for it and is able to recognize your talents.
00:28:55.359 --> 00:29:00.799
Some people will never really have the courage to say, yes, that's what I'm gonna go for.
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:03.039
They need each other's help and support.
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:03.519
Yeah.
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:05.039
Absolutely.
00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:12.720
So I am wondering if you can identify are there ways that being a woman has positively impacted your career?
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:14.799
Oh, yeah, I think so.
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:22.240
You know, I was raised in a family with five brothers and surrounded by cowboys and ranchers and a sort of male-thinking thing.
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:29.519
So it wasn't until I started to get out in the world and, you know, with each step realized that I was a woman.
00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:30.400
I don't know.
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:31.519
That's really silly.
00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:35.920
That's why I put my name as Patricia so that people would know right up front Pat it wasn't Pat.
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:38.640
Anyway, so so that sort of owning it.
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:59.920
I think probably, and I'm not saying this is all this is different from men to women, or I don't want to make too many generalizations, but I think for me personally, this sort of nurturing and whether it's ideas or people and supporting as the oldest daughter in a big family, that was something that I always had in veterinary medicine.
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:06.079
You may or may not know this, but that went from a really when I was in vet school, predominantly male profession.
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:09.119
Our class at CSU was one of the first to have.
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:12.559
We had 25 women in our class, just had our reunion here.
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:28.079
And I think that that being a woman in the veterinary field and then being successful was particularly important to the profession that there start being women that were in these positions and that they were succeeding.
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:34.559
I got a lot of offers to be or enticements to be a dean or an administrator because I was a woman.
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:37.839
So it would have been an advantage there, but that's not what I ever wanted.
00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:45.599
Why do you think as a woman you were a Because they needed in the veterinary profession, because people were just now that's not such a problem.
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:48.480
Now eighty to ninety percent of classes are women.
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:48.960
All right.
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:58.160
So there are gonna be many more women that are that there are already that have the accomplishments and skills and abilities to be in administrative positions.
00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:08.079
But back then, when there were far fewer even female veterinarians, much less those that went on to advance studies, I think that was a limiting factor.
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:20.640
You mention a lot the idea of team science and how important that's been in your career.
00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:28.000
Do you think of that as something that is for lack of a better word, like a feminine trait to build teams and work with teams?
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:32.079
Well, it was for me being the oldest daughter in a in a family, yes.
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:49.039
I wasn't raised to think that that was a female thing, but I think it definitely was that caring for, nurturing, supporting, and also okay, this might not be unfair, but putting the success of the team and the individuals even ahead of my own success.
00:31:49.039 --> 00:32:02.240
I mean, that's what's amazing, because I have had so many awards and things like that that I never expected, but the whole team, how we progressed, that I think that may be a feminine instinct.
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:02.720
I don't know.
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:04.559
I might get in trouble here on this podcast.
00:32:06.319 --> 00:32:07.200
I don't know.
00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:09.839
Because you gotta remember, I came as a cowgirl.
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:12.480
I didn't even know what a feminist was when I came here.
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:17.839
I was asked to be in a position that was about feminism, and I had to ask, what is that?
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:20.240
So I'm a slow learner.
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:24.480
I was in a faculty position before I admitted.
00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:32.960
Like I remember being in college and people talked about being a feminist, and I thought it was a dirty word, and I did not want to identify with that.
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:37.359
And then later I was like, oh, that's like, yeah, I'm that, and that that makes sense.
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:38.640
Yeah, I guess I'm a feminist.
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:39.119
Okay.
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:44.960
I kind of ran from it for many years, which is really kind of shocking to me now to think.
00:32:45.440 --> 00:32:46.160
Thanks for that.
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:47.920
I thought I was the only one.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:51.599
But this is one thing that women do have, and I hope more men are doing it.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:54.079
But we do have this like sharing these things.
00:32:54.079 --> 00:32:57.279
That's why it's so important to sit down, have coffee, tea.
00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:03.279
I learned that when I was in Edinburgh, when everybody sat down, had coffee in the morning together, and then tea in the afternoon.
00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:04.400
Those are really important.
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:13.200
And as women, you may not have time for all the coffees and teas together, but reaching out and and having in having this, you know, sharing experience like we just did.
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:13.680
Yeah.
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:14.960
I'm loving it.
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:26.720
On the other side, for women to be successful in science, I d strongly believe we need allies, and many times men can be part of our journeys of success.
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:36.960
So I'm wondering if you have any story that you could point to where a man helped promote your career or support you or encourage you in any way.
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:43.680
Well, I had my mentors as a vet student, uh graduate student, all those were men, okay?
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:45.839
Or do you just want when I'm in my profession?
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:46.240
Whatever.
00:33:46.240 --> 00:34:00.319
Well, I wouldn't I would not have been on this journey if it hadn't been for a pathologist at Colorado State University, who I picked out when I had my go live in another country, and I had no idea how to do that.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:08.880
So I picked the only person who had an accent, and that was this neuropathologist, and he helped me with my Marshall Scholarship application.
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:10.000
And where was he from?
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:17.039
And he was, it turned out when he I told him I was picking the Center for Tropical Veterinary Medicine in Edinburgh, and my second choice was Glasgow.
00:34:17.039 --> 00:34:20.079
That's when I found out he was actually from Glasgow, Scotland.
00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:29.840
So yeah, Stuart Young, and then my major professor, the person who gave the dynamic lecture about East Coast fever, he was a man, Duncan Brown, that I named the parasite after.
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:49.599
And and then when I as a postdoc, Anesma Olimoyoi, who was an amazing man, real Maasai herdsman, right, before he went and got his medical degree at Harvard, and was the head of the molecular biology lab at Ilrad, who, when I wandered into the molecular biology lab, said, Hey, you can stay.
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:54.480
And so three years in there changed the direction of everything that I did.
00:34:54.480 --> 00:35:03.440
And then one other thing that comes to mind as a single mom, it's tough financially to suddenly be supporting your family in a place in the country we had just bought.
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:05.519
And there were times when it was really tight.
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:17.440
And I will never forget our vice dean and my department chair came together and they asked me when I had come back from a visit to CSU if anybody'd asked to try to recruit me.
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:19.119
And I thought that was strange.
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:24.639
I said, Well, I mean, yeah, well, they asked if I wanted to be the head of microbiology, you know.
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:27.119
But come on, I'm working on marine mammals, you know.
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:28.639
There's no ocean in Colorado.
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:30.400
Anyway, didn't stop these guys.
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:34.000
They put it together as if they were gonna lose me to CSU.
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:34.719
That's amazing.
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:39.679
Like they gave you the retention without you even realizing that you should have been asking.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:42.559
Fortunately, we're all retired now, so you can't tell.
00:35:42.559 --> 00:35:47.599
But I will forever be grateful to these guys because it made a huge difference.
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:48.559
It was so tight.
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:57.519
And they probably knew that that was how you played the game going for the retention, and for some reason you hadn't gotten that secret handshake, and they said, Hey, come on over.
00:35:57.519 --> 00:35:58.000
Right.
00:35:58.000 --> 00:35:59.039
That's amazing.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:35:59.840
That's amazing.
00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:01.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:02.719
Yeah, I'm glad you see that too.
00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:04.320
Because I I love these guys.
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:05.840
I will be forever grateful to them.
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:06.559
Should I name them?
00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:06.880
No.
00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:07.440
No.
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:08.400
Oh, can I?
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:08.960
Yeah.
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:11.679
John Pasco and Jim McGuachlin.
00:36:11.679 --> 00:36:12.239
Yeah.
00:36:12.239 --> 00:36:14.639
They will give them the credit that they deserve.
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:15.840
Oh my gosh, yes.
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:18.880
They were great administrators and sensitive human beings.
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:20.159
That's really awesome.
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:24.960
That's usually you have to fight for those things and that they were like never even thought to fight.
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:27.039
I was too busy keeping the boat afloat.
00:36:27.039 --> 00:36:28.480
Yeah, that's amazing.
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:36.880
In terms of being at mom, are there ways that uh raising kids helped your science in any way?
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:38.719
Oh, absolutely.
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:48.639
I mean, you know, when you first wrote, I remember you c referred to me as an ecologist, and I thought, wow, that is such an honor because I would so love to be an ecologist.
00:36:48.639 --> 00:36:49.920
A design's ecologist.
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:52.480
Yes, because we had some big NSF grants on that.
00:36:52.480 --> 00:37:01.440
But the point was that I had many times people say, Oh, wow, you know a lot about the environment and you have this like interest, and it almost all came from my sons.
00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:08.559
From the time they were little, they were looking for insects in flower pots at the airport, and they knew all of the plants.
00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:12.880
I just learned so much from my sons as they grew up.
00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:15.920
Their father was a naturalist and they would go visit him in Africa.
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:20.239
So that was good, but then they brought it back to me, and it shaped my science.
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:21.440
You mentioned the One Health.
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:31.519
But to remember that whatever problem we're facing, consider animals and humans, we're interconnected in so many ways, live and also what people eat.
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:35.679
But then also we all share these environments, these ecosystems.
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:42.480
So being open and aware of that, and even if I didn't know enough about it, I knew that I didn't know.
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:47.840
And that's where you bring the people in to the team that have that kind of expertise.
00:37:47.840 --> 00:38:04.800
So we would never have been able to do a lot of the work we did without recognizing that everything's interconnected and bringing in the ecologists, hydrologists, engineers, different people who understood things from a different perspective to take a one health approach.
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.199
That's why I I'm just such a believer in that.
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:08.719
That's so cool.
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:12.239
So you've been extremely successful.
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:13.760
What are your life hacks?
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:16.719
How did you manage to make it work on a day-to-day basis?
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:20.800
My sons would tell you I gave them too much juice and they went to Subway too often.
00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:23.679
We're gonna try and move past that place in our lives.
00:38:23.679 --> 00:38:31.519
You know, one thing that was a lifesaver for us, and this is early on, because remember I came with an infant and then had another baby.
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:43.280
And so my husband at the time and I, we made the decision we'd just go without the discretionary income, and we hired someone, a wonderful person, like a second mom, to be able to come to the house.
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:55.440
And you know, he traveled a lot, but he was there part of the time, and we lived pretty close, and so I could go back and forth, but it was someone, Marilyn, she was like a second mom, and that made a huge difference.
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:58.880
I know a lot of mothers, a lot of people don't think about that.
00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:03.440
I don't know how much that's still possible, but that was a huge help.
00:39:03.840 --> 00:39:07.599
A lot of people talk about that, and I got that advice certainly early on.
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:19.199
Hire people to help, whether it's live in or some somehow, get the help you need, and it's terrible because you see the money coming in and then going back out, but it facilitates being able to get to do the work you want to do.
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:25.760
It's the best investment that you can make, you know, is to find the right person or people and you put that together.
00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:29.119
So I gave you the advice, you were flexible on time and all of that.
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:32.079
Yes, but you can't be home all of the time.
00:39:32.079 --> 00:39:36.400
And having somebody that you can call and you can maybe go back and forth.
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:41.039
So I think that's one of the great challenges is how do we manage our childcare?
00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:44.800
But that's one thing I thought was worth mentioning that made a big difference.
00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:46.000
Yeah, absolutely.
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:51.360
And what about how do you set priorities for your work and how do you decide what to say no to?
00:39:51.360 --> 00:39:54.079
Ah, well, priorities first.
00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:58.000
I always put my sons first if I had to make a decision.
00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:00.800
But I wasn't a helicopter mom, so I wasn't like that.
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:07.199
And once you have somebody who can help you and you have after school care and all that, that kind of eases that whole thing.
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:11.440
Other things, how do I set my priorities besides that?
00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:13.760
You know, I'm not a list person.
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:19.199
I know a lot of people, these are the important things, and check I would find that exhausting, you know, to do that.
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:23.760
I actually, in my mind, I think I was more a juggler.
00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:32.960
I saw myself juggling these things where it was up to me to let a new ball come in or not, um, or drop some, all right.
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:35.760
And that that was all just part of it, all right?
00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:38.159
Part of the the game, if you will, all right.
00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:44.639
And that hopefully you've got the most colorful and fun while still letting in some of these uncertain ones.
00:40:44.639 --> 00:40:49.119
Because I I think that was a secret to our success was to have programs.
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:54.800
Well, I guess this fits in the context of people always saying focus, okay.
00:40:54.800 --> 00:40:55.760
Well, it's hard.
00:40:55.760 --> 00:41:15.920
So as a juggler, I was focused, but on mini balls in the air, okay, not just one thing, you know, and so if somebody came in with an idea that they really let people have their ideas that they really wanted to go forward, and okay, so this ball drops, that one comes in, kind of thing, figuring out how to do that.
00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:16.800
Does that make sense?
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:19.199
It does, because I do a lot of juggling myself.
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:19.920
Good job.
00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:31.199
That you don't take that fireball that it burns you, and then you hope you don't have too many balls on the floor or the even if you drop them, that's not the end of the world.
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:35.119
Somebody else may pick it up, you know, they might get thrown back in or whatever.
00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:38.480
I mean, I found that a lot of people worried about what they dropped.
00:41:38.480 --> 00:41:48.719
The way I looked at it is as long as I was keeping the ones that were most important up there to me and or to the people around me, then that would be good.
00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:53.519
And oh, and then also since we're talking about academics, so there's always a question of service, right?
00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:56.639
We all need to do service, and that's all these committees and everything like that.
00:41:56.639 --> 00:42:04.800
And what I figured out very early was having been put on my first committee, was the library committee, which was the most boring committee ever.
00:42:04.800 --> 00:42:15.920
And nothing against the library, but I realized don't be on anything that you don't really care about and want to make a difference or could make a difference.
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:16.400
All right.
00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:22.639
So I guess that was my criteria is that did this mean something to me and could I contribute to this?
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:30.320
And then as other things come up, you can easily say no because you're already doing the things that are the most important.
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:34.639
And sometimes if you get a lot of pressure on you, and of course I did, you'd say, Well, you know what?
00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:35.840
Here, let me show you this.
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:36.639
Here's the list.
00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:38.880
So which of these should I drop to do that?
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:40.639
Especially if it comes from the administration.
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:42.400
I got that advice early on.
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:49.360
I went to a seminar about being an academic and somebody made that point, like volunteer for the things you want to do.
00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:49.760
Yes.
00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:54.559
And then when somebody comes to you for something you don't want to do, you say, Well, I'm sorry, my dance card's full.
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:55.039
Yes.
00:42:55.039 --> 00:42:55.760
Yes.
00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:58.000
And if they don't believe it, you know, look at this.
00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:05.679
And I I actually one one promotion that I got, the only comment I got back from the committee was I did too much service.
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:07.679
They gave it to me.
00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:15.679
But the point was I didn't feel like I did because everything I did had purpose and I felt I could make a contribution.
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:16.559
Does that make sense?
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:17.599
Yeah, absolutely.
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:20.480
It's a great example of guiding it yourself.
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:20.960
Yes.
00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:22.960
And that's the joy of academia.
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:26.880
You sort of said that earlier, Karen, is that this is our chance.
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:33.280
This is a great job if you actually own it, that these are your decisions.
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:42.559
The people I see the most miserable junior faculty are when they are focused on what they think other people expect.
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:54.159
And rather than say, hey, I'm in academia because I want to make, I want to have the life that I want and I want to be my best in the things that I think are most important.
00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:59.360
And then then you can say no to things and you can build the life that you want.
00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:02.239
Stop thinking about what other people think.
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:11.199
Even in a system where in UC um where everything's peer reviewed, where everybody gets to see it, I think that's even better because then put it out to the whole crowd.
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:15.119
They know what you've done, and that's when all these oh wow, yeah, that's good.
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:22.960
The other advantage is if you really piss somebody off, like a dean or someone, they can't destroy your career because everybody else has seen what you've done.
00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:24.239
Because it's public.
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:24.719
Yes.
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:25.360
I see.
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:25.840
Yeah.
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:37.760
So if you were gonna give a piece of advice that you received or that you've learned along the way on the journey, what would you pass along to the listeners as a key piece of advice?
00:44:38.320 --> 00:44:39.840
Believe in yourself.
00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:41.280
Be brave.
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:47.119
You pick the best job possible if you can stick to that, if you can believe in yourself.
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:52.000
And from me, I would say make contacts.
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:57.920
Get to know the other people that could end up being your collaborators or including you in their collaborations.
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:07.280
And people think that takes too much time, but I can tell you, when we've just reached out, you know, we needed a hydrologist or an oceanographer, we needed an ecologist.
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:11.760
I said we may not know them, but reach out and get to know these people, go to conferences.
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:12.320
Oh, yeah.
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:13.280
Can I add that too?
00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:13.599
Yeah.
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:26.559
The I think another joy of academia is our ability to and our actually the necessity to get out and share what we know and what we are learning and what we're doing with other people.
00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:35.920
So that includes conferences, that includes talks, that includes collaborations, all of those things that you can get funding for, and they're absolutely worth it.
00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:45.119
And if you can, add on an extra day or two of your own with your own funds and go to an art gallery, a museum, get out and see the culture.
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:46.800
Take advantage of those trips.
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:47.440
Yeah.
00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:52.639
You're talking to a Colorado cowgirl who never thought she would go anywhere besides Colorado.
00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:55.039
And I just yesterday figured it out.
00:45:55.039 --> 00:46:04.079
I'm in 53 different countries, almost all of them related to work in one way or another, because you gotta get out.
00:46:04.079 --> 00:46:05.440
And I was invited.
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:07.599
And it's yeah, it's been a joyous life.
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:08.480
That's awesome.
00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:11.360
So you did mention believe in yourself.
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:18.719
Did you ever suffer from imposter syndrome and moments where you didn't believe in yourself or had doubts?
00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:20.480
And how did you overcome it?
00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:26.000
Well, when I went to my personal crisis, I had a lot of doubts if I was gonna survive that one.
00:46:26.000 --> 00:46:43.840
But I think that the fact that I came with no teaching, no grant writing, no idea what I was going to do, no experience, just who I was with my energy enthusiasm, collaborative spirit, whatever it was, those things were true.
00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:46.559
So I think that's why I didn't suffer from imposture.
00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:53.039
I didn't lead anybody to believe that I was going to do more than what I had, but they believed in me.
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:55.760
So you had your piece that you knew you could contribute.
00:46:55.760 --> 00:46:56.400
Yeah.
00:46:56.400 --> 00:47:09.039
Me, me, my enthusiasm, my interest in collaborating, my curiosity, my I think I've always been a what-if person and a challenge, the dogma, we think it's this, but hey, what about if it was this?
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:28.960
So I mean, in some ways, I never would have known this before I went and did my postdoc and had that team or came here, that I am much better suited for the life that I had as an academic than than I I mean, I think I would have been a good vet, all right, but what an incredible life this has been.
00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:32.960
So, in terms of what brings you joy day to day, you've described a lot of that.
00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:34.480
But what about hobbies?
00:47:34.480 --> 00:47:35.840
How do you treat yourself?
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:38.800
What are the things that you do outside of work?
00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:41.440
Ah, so joy always.
00:47:41.440 --> 00:47:43.199
My sons, always.
00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:46.880
My pets, I have bridge bags throughout my whole time.
00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:52.159
And I used to out in the country have goats and and chickens and cats and a few other things.
00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:54.079
So you know how to wrangle those goats.
00:47:54.079 --> 00:47:55.679
Yes, I did know things.
00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:58.239
But but I was gentler on this.
00:47:58.239 --> 00:48:01.679
And then and in nature, you know, sitting out.
00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:08.079
I spent COVID sitting out on my deck looking at my pond with the trees, and now I have a garden in Davis.
00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:10.559
And then getting out to nature, traveling.
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:15.440
I don't feel like I have to go to a lot of places, but now I can reflect.
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:20.960
I think that traveling is the best education possible because it's not just seeing places.
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:29.840
It's if you go, especially if you travel with a work affiliate, you get to know people, you get to engage with a culture that's different, a different perspective.
00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:31.840
It's absolutely fascinating.
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:34.400
So those have always brought me joy.
00:48:34.400 --> 00:48:35.760
I love the arts.
00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:38.000
I love musicals since I was a little kid.
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:42.400
I actually took a class on musicals, and now I'm learning how to sing and read music.
00:48:42.400 --> 00:48:45.679
Maybe even play the ukulele.
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:47.280
We'll see how that goes.
00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:48.239
I love art.
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:56.880
So I dabble a little in ceramics and watercolor, and it makes me appreciate other people's art even more, I think, than I did before.
00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:01.440
So yeah, I think those are-you probably wouldn't be able to identify the protozoa.
00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:03.920
So and photography too.
00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:04.880
I admire photography.
00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:09.039
I'm that would be a great photographer, but even with my little iPhone, I'm trying to get better.
00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:13.039
Oh, and then also, you know, we were just talking about pelotons and things like that.
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:16.559
So yeah, I think working out, taking care of yourself.
00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:21.679
So I love to walk with my dogs, and I have a grandpuppy right now that's visiting.
00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:25.039
Peloton, weightlifting, dancing.
00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:26.000
I love dancing.
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:26.480
Okay.
00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:28.000
All of all of those things.
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:29.840
So there's a lot of wonderful things.
00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:30.239
Yeah.
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:32.400
Sounds like you keep yourself very busy.
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:36.480
Everybody says that, but compared to the life that I had, no.
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:40.400
I don't need somebody employed 50% time to manage my calendar anymore.
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:40.880
Okay.
00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:44.800
Because I get things wrong occasionally, as you know.
00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:47.360
So, last question.
00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:50.400
If you weren't a scientist, what would you do?
00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:52.000
Oh, well, two things.
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.960
One, if I only had the talent.
00:49:54.960 --> 00:50:02.960
Well, it would have to be when I was much younger, but to sing and to dance the way that I would imagine, I would have loved to have been on stage.
00:50:02.960 --> 00:50:08.159
I just love the idea of being not personally entertaining, but being part of a musical.
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:12.960
The idea of people spontaneously bursting into song, you know, I love that.
00:50:12.960 --> 00:50:13.920
My sons hate that.
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:17.599
I I uh yeah.
00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:26.320
And then the only other thing that I thought about for about probably about the last 15, 20 years that if I were to give up this job and do something else, what would appeal to me?
00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:37.199
And the only thing was, and this is much more serious, was if I had the tens, or now I guess it would have to be hundreds of millions, okay, everything's inflated, to put towards a good cause.
00:50:37.199 --> 00:50:47.199
I think that the challenge of considering what would be the best investment and what would be the criteria for that, because there are so many things that are important.
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:51.360
I guess that's why it breaks my heart when money is being taken away from things.
00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:56.400
And if I were one of these very wealthy people, I would choose some of these things that are losing money.
00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:58.800
I would be, I would be gas.
00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:02.719
Somehow making decisions about investments in philanthropy.
00:51:02.719 --> 00:51:03.199
Yes.
00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:04.079
So try this.
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:09.199
And I've done this at dinner parties and I did it once at a conference and say, okay, a question.
00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:12.559
So you were just given a hundred million dollars.
00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:14.159
What would you do with it?
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:18.719
So have all these scientists, and we're talking about our programs and what we're doing and everything.
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:21.920
So would your program be what you'd put it into?
00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:24.880
And if there was more, what would you invest in?
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.280
Because I think that's really challenging.
00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:35.280
Because when you care about a lot of things and you know that they're really important, thinking that through, I really admire the people that do that well.
00:51:35.280 --> 00:51:47.920
And I think that's the only thing that I since I can't dance and sing on stage, I that would be the only other thing that I, yeah, I would have I would have thought could be as challenging as and as rewarding as the the life that I've lived.
00:51:47.920 --> 00:51:49.760
So like working for a foundation or something.
00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:50.159
Yeah.
00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:51.519
Not working for a foundation.
00:51:51.519 --> 00:51:52.559
I wanted to be the head of it.
00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:53.039
Yeah.
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:53.599
Okay.
00:51:53.599 --> 00:51:57.360
Because I wouldn't want to have to make the case and then take it to sell it to somebody.
00:51:57.360 --> 00:51:58.880
That's what we do as scientists all the time.
00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:02.559
We're writing these grants, we put down our best ideas, our best plan, and everything.
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:05.679
And you take it to somebody who might say, uh, no, I want to do.
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:09.360
No, but we, if we were gonna make the decision.
00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:22.239
And and another way of thinking about that, because we always did this in the One Health Institute and Jonna Mazette, who sort of launched that, she uh she uh everybody had there was a culture of everything that we did, we thought, so what?
00:52:22.239 --> 00:52:23.360
All right.
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:24.960
So we're doing this, it's fascinating.
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:26.480
We love the science and everything.
00:52:26.480 --> 00:52:27.519
So what?
00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:38.400
And that's where what you mentioned about the Sea Otter work that we did and Toxoplasma, it ending up actually being turned into a change in the law.
00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:45.679
Also, if you look at your income tax in California, you're not in California, but if you check the income tax, you can give money to Sea Otter research.
00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:48.960
And anyway, some some significant changes.
00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:53.039
Cat litter is all anyway, there's a number of things came from that.
00:52:53.039 --> 00:52:56.239
So it was a so what you know change.
00:52:56.239 --> 00:53:07.039
So that doesn't happen with all research, but I think if we think about that as if we were investing in there, I think that can be yeah, really challenging and fun.
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:11.840
And also helpful to think that with that lens about the science that we're doing.
00:53:11.840 --> 00:53:12.320
Yes.
00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:13.599
Is this a priority?
00:53:13.599 --> 00:53:16.079
How do we make decisions about the questions?
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:39.280
And that's not a criticism anybody's science, because I mean it's what people don't often recognize is that some of the basic science is doing things that may not be obvious right now, that what their value is have been some of the most important research and discoveries that have led to the other things that have now saved lives, that have helped the environment, that have saved animals.
00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:50.320
So it may not be obvious immediately, but if we reflect on it and then also allow for the fact there might be things we can't even imagine now, but this is going to be of value.
00:53:50.639 --> 00:54:10.239
Well, I think that's a great place to end because I think that brings us right back to the beginning of you made a comment off the cup for me years ago, and you had no idea what that impact would be, and it impacted my life, and now we're trying to have that be something that impacts other people's lives with this podcast.
00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:11.679
I am so proud of you.
00:54:11.679 --> 00:54:12.960
Okay, can I say that?
00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:13.920
I'm so proud of you.
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:15.440
Thank you so much.
00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:16.719
That's really sweet.
00:54:16.719 --> 00:54:17.840
I'm proud of you too.
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:21.760
Thank you so much.
00:54:21.760 --> 00:54:23.519
This has been so much fun.
00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:24.960
Really appreciate it.
00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:28.559
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00:54:28.559 --> 00:54:32.480
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00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:35.840
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00:54:51.519 --> 00:54:56.800
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00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:11.280
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00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:19.760
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