Hypnosis

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Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Gimlet Media's
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Science Versus. This is the show where we pit facts
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against fakers. On today's show, science versus hypnosis. Is it real?
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Are people under mind control, or are they just faking?
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To answer these questions and so much more, I'm going
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to go on stage, I'm going to let people hypnotize me,
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and then we're going to pick apart the science. I
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just don't want him to make me balk like a chicken.
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I don't want him to make me do that.
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I want to do that in my own volition.
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Recently, a few of us from Science Versus went to
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a hypnosis show on stage at the Mohegan Sun Casino,
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a sprawling complex in eastern Connecticut. Inside the casino, there
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is row after row of slot machines and craps tables.
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There's even a life-sized animatronic wolf perched on a fake cliff.
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Look at that!
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That's a wolf. That's a wolf. The wolf just moved.
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We were in for a great Sunday night.
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Ladies and gentlemen, put it together for the world's greatest hypnotist,
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your buddy and mine, Mr Jim Spanato!
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CHEERING We met our hypnotist, Jim, backstage before the show.
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He told us that he started out his career as
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just your standard magician until one day, a couple of
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decades ago, when he was asked to be the opening
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act for a hypnosis show.
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I didn't even know what that was. Then I watched
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his show and was like, whoa, what is this all about?
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What made you go, whoa?
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Because I never saw people act like that on stage.
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You had people doing some crazy things.
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What kind of things?
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Well.
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Jim laughed like that because he was about to make
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a bunch of people do some of those very same
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crazy things.
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Just come, come, come, come. Let's go. Come up on stage.
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And I'd already told him that I was going to
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go on stage.
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Yeah, oh yeah, come up. Happy birthday, baby.
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All in the service of journalism.
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Oh yeah, keep coming. We need a punch, need a punch.
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Around 20 people, including me, walked on stage. And soon...
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Jim was casting his spell.
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So let me ask you volunteers to sit back in
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your seats.
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Place your feet flat on the floor. Place your hands
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in your laps. Separate it, please.
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Yep.
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Close your eyes, volunteers. Just sit back and close your eyes.
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And just listen. Just listen to the music of my voice. Really,
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really simple. All I want you to do is to
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roll your eyes to the top.
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Of the ceiling as far as you can go, as
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if you're trying to stare at the top of your
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own forehead, all right? And as I do that, you're
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going to feel your eyes begin to get heavy, so
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heavy that by the time I reach zero, they'll actually
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close completely.
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So I was sitting on this chair on stage and
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at this point I felt really relaxed, sort of like
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if you've ever meditated and the whole world kind of
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melts away. My head rolled down and I started to
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lean forward. I actually thought my head was resting on
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my chest, but our producers, Caitlin Sori and Heather Rogers,
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who were in the audience, told me later that my
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head was practically in my lap.
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It was then that Jim gave us his first suggestion.
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To put our arms out and imagine that one hand
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is holding a heavy ball. Based on how low your
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hand dropped, Jim decided who could stay and who had
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to go. He kicked about a dozen people off stage,
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leaving just seven, including me. All of us just happened
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to be women.
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It's always women here, so weird.
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Hmm.
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No faking. You can fake later on tonight if you want,
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but not up here.
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LAUGHTER Jim's hypnosis show is rated R. It's of the
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raunchy variety, so lots of swearing, lots of sex jokes,
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and with seven women on stage, he promised the crowd
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the entertainment would now really begin. Jim started off with
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something easy, suggesting that the person sitting next to us
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smelled unbelievably good.
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Wendy, you smell that? Yes, no?
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Okay.
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You can't hear it, but I said no. I was
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a bit foggy and maybe I was starting to smell
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something sweet, but whatever state I was in, I snapped
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out of it immediately as soon as I saw the
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woman next to me leaping off her chair and starting
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to sniff the lady next to her. But she didn't
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just sniff her like a regular person. She buried her
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head deep into her crutch. The crowd went nuts. LAUGHTER
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That was the moment I realised I had to get
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off stage. So I did. But everyone else stayed on,
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and under hypnosis, they ended up giving the audience lap dances,
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they got high smoking imaginary weed, they rapped.
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Yeah, can't stop laughing!
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they heard noises coming out of their vaginas, and real
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estate agent Lauren was sent roaming around the club looking
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for a lost poodle called Twat.
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Twat!
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LAUGHTER So what in the world was happening on that stage?
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Were those women really just putty in Jim Spinato's hands,
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unable to stop themselves from following his every suggestion? Or
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were they just a bunch of attention seekers faking it
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for the crowd? Well, the thing is, entertainers aren't the
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only ones who have been using hypnosis over the years.
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Some doctors and scientists have been hypnotising patients for centuries
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with the ultimate goal of improving people's physical and mental
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health as well as changing bad habits. Give them a
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suggestion to quit smoking and whammo, they're looking for a
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dog named Twat. Joking, obviously not. Presumably the ciggies are
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in the crash and they never have an urge to
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smoke again. But does hypnosis really work like that? On
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today's show, we're pushing science verses to the edge of
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consciousness to answer the following questions. One, what is hypnosis? Two,
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can everyone be hypnotized? Three, what is happening in your
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brain when you're under? And four, what can hypnosis make
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you do? Like, how good is the evidence that it
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really can help you quit smoking? When it comes to
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mind control, there are lots of opinions. But then, there's science.
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Let's start with the basics. What exactly is hypnosis? Professor
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Philip Muskin is a psychiatrist at Columbia University in New York.
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The only thing you have to.
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Be careful with these chairs is they totally have a
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mind of their own.
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So if you move even a little, correct.
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For more than three decades, he has been treating his
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patients with hypnosis. And he says that even after all
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these years, he can still remember one of the first
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times he saw someone get hypnotized. It was a doctor
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who was being hypnotized by another doctor. The hypnotist gave
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his subject a very simple but rather terrifying suggestion.
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You cannot separate your fingers. No force on earth will
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allow you to separate your fingers. When you open your eyes,
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your fingers will be fused together. You cannot separate them.
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So he brought her out of the trance and her
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hands are like this and he gives her a cup
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of coffee and she goes to take it and just falls.
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On the ground.
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I'm amazed. She then did a neurology residency here at
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the hospital I'm at now. And I ran into her
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one day. By then I was a psychiatry resident. So
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she was now a senior neurology resident. And I said,
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I've been meaning to ask you this for years. So
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here we are. What was going on?
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She said, I don't know.
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He told me I couldn't take my fingers apart. I
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couldn't take my fingers apart. He gave me the damn
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cup of coffee. I made a mess. I was embarrassed,
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but I couldn't take my fingers apart.
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Seeing this astounded Philip. He went on to study hypnosis,
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and now he regularly uses the technique on his patients
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for a variety of conditions, like relieving pain and helping
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people with their phobias. Philip also teaches hypnosis to medical students.
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He showed us how to hypnotize someone.
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Look into my eyes.
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Nah, that was just his Dracula impersonation. Okay, no, here
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it is. This is how you actually hypnotise someone. And
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you'll notice that the words that Professor Philip Musken uses
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are pretty similar to what Jim said on stage at
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the Mohegan Sun Casino.
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Roll your eyes up. Roll them up as high as
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they'll go. And keeping your eyeballs up, slowly close your eyelids.
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Take a deep breath. Deep, deep, deep, deep.
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When I ask you to do this, all I want
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you to do is to roll your eyes to the
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top of the ceiling as far as you can go.
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Philip says that you can do a lot of things
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to hypnotize someone. You don't have to roll your eyes
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up or take a deep breath. You can show them
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a spinning spiral or even dangle that old movie classic.
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The gold watch floating back and forth in front of
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your eyes. And those are all techniques that work.
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The gold watch works?
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It works.
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But they all work for the same reason, that the
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person starts to concentrate his or her attention in a
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very narrow focus.
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Philip says that when you're so focused and the rest
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of the world just melts away and all you can
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hear is the hypnotist's voice, you are entering a trance. Yep,
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that's seriously what Philip and other academics call it.
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A trance.
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Now, Philip says there are a few components to hypnosis.
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Absorption, dissociation, and suggestibility. Absorption really means that you narrow
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your focus. You're absorbed. Dissociation means things that are normally
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one are separated. And suggestibility means that social cues that
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you might ignore, you're more open to them.
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Once suggestibility kicks in, the hypnotist makes suggestions to you,
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like smelling the woman next to you or keeping your
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hands clasped together. Then, the hypnotist basically wakes you up
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and ends the trance.
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Now, in a minute, I'm going to have you open
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your eyes. Don't do anything, just listen.
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At three.
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You can start to move around your seats a little bit.
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Why don't you do that now?
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Just get a little bit.
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Of energy going on, okay? Four, almost awake. On the
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next number, your eyes will open. At that point, you'll
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be wide, wide, wide awake, feeling excellent.
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You'll feel refreshed, like you've taken a short nap.
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Conclusion To put someone under, you first focus them, get
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them absorbed, then give them suggestions. And finally, you wake
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them up. Oh, and other than the cocktails and the
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lap dances, what hypnotists do on stage can actually be
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quite similar to what doctors do in the office. Next question.
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Is everyone on stage and in Philip's office actually hypnotised?
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Because there is a problem that plagues hypnotists, and that
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is fakers. People pretending to be under and carrying out
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the suggestions just because they want to. Either they want
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to please the crowd or maybe they want to please
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their doctor. And the thing is that even scientists have
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trouble spotting a faker. Even with fancy schmancy technology like
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MRI scanners that can map the brain. There is no
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consistent marker for when the brain is under a hypnotic trance.
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But a paper reviewing the current state of the science,
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which cited almost 100 articles published in 2013, concluded that
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the scientific consensus on hypnosis reckons there is more to
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it than faking. Some people, they noted, do have genuine
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experiences of feeling in some kind of trance. So, while
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some people, when it comes to hypnosis, are surely faking,
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let's focus on what is happening to the people who aren't.
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Turns out that some are more likely to go under
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and follow suggestions than others. What makes these people so
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highly hypnotisable? Studies with identical twins suggest that there is
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a genetic link between people who are highly hypnotisable, so
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it's a trait that could be inherited. But not all
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identical twins showed a strong genetic link. So there's probably
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more at play than genetics. And just like you can't
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use genes to pick out a highly hypnotizable person, according
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to Philip, you also can't look at someone and accurately
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guess who is hypnotizable.
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There are people who are very hypnotizable, but they wear
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three-piece suits. There are people who dress in a flighty way.
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And everyone thinks, oh, she's hypnotisable. And she's anything but hypnotisable.
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You can be weak-willed and not be hypnotisable at all
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and extremely strong-willed and be very hypnotisable.
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And there are no biological tests for who is or
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isn't highly hypnotisable. There's no blood test or brain scan.
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The only way to know, say researchers, is to hypnotise
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people and then ask them to do a series of
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increasingly complicated tasks while they're under. It's a test, and
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based on what people do or don't do, the scientists
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give them a ranking of hypnotisability. There are several of
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these tests. Two of the most frequently used are from
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Harvard and Stanford. And when scientists use these tests to
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rank hypnotisability, they've found that, like most personality traits, being
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extroverted or neurotic, hypnotisability falls into a spectrum, where most
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people are in the middle... 10-15% are highly hypnotisable, and
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then there are very few incredibly hypnotisable people. These are
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people who will follow extremely complicated suggestions. On stage, Jim's
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hypnosis didn't really work on me, but I wanted to
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see how I would go in a clinical setting. You know,
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with a real professional.
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Look into my eyes.
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Philip gave me a short hypnotisability test, and he used
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this simple scoring system from zero to five. Zero, not
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hypnotisable at all. Five, very hypnotisable. He put me under,
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then told me my arm felt tingly, and it kind
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of started to feel a bit tingly. Then, after a
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couple more suggestions, he got me out of it.
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Open up your eyelids. Open them up and bring them
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into focus. How do you feel?
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Yeah, I feel very.
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A little bit drugged out. Drugged out. The most similar
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to when I felt like this before.
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Okay.
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Is it a good feeling or a bad feeling?
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It's like a little bit woozy making.
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A little bit woozy.
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Okay. So as you could hear, I sound pretty groggy,
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and that really surprised me. For five minutes of just
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focusing my attention, for my head to go all foggy,
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that was odd. And it led Philip Musken to tell me.
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You're actually hypnotisable. Sorry to disappoint you.
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What number?
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What number am I?
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You're at least a three.
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At least a three? Who wants to be highly hypnotisable?
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I want it to be a zero. I don't want
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people messing with my head in a way that's out
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of my control. Which brings us to Amanda Barnier.
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I'm a professor of cognitive science in... the Department of
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Cognitive Science at Macquarie University in Sydney, Australia.
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And she studies extremely hypnotisable people, people at the top
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end of that scale that Philip used on me. And
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she writes about them in peer-reviewed journals. So she told
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me about one case of a man called Blake, which
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isn't his real name. She put him under hypnosis and
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then she gave him a rather remarkable suggestion.
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In a moment, I'm going to get you to look
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into a mirror and you're going to see a stranger,
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not yourself. And then I said, okay, lean forward, open
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your eyes and look in the mirror. And he opens
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his eyes and he looks in the mirror. And then
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he looks around the room and he looks at me
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and he looks around the room. And I said, who
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is it? And what do you see? And he said,
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it's not me. I said, do you know who it is?
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And he said, I think it's a guy that I
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used to go to school with. And I said, does
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he look like you? And he said, no.
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Amanda pushed Blake and he kept saying the person he
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could see in the mirror was definitely not him.
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He said, well, his eyes are smaller, his nose is bigger,
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he's got freckles. So, yeah, that's absolutely one of the
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most compelling sessions that I've ever sat in.
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And Blake wasn't the only one. In total, Amanda convinced
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14 out of 22 highly hypnotisable subjects that they were
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seeing a stranger when they looked in the mirror. And
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of these, 10 said they had never seen this person
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in the mirror before, two said they had seen the
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person before, and another two just weren't sure. She also
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tried this out on people with low hypnotisability, and it
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didn't work. Conclusion. There is a spectrum of hypnotisability. Most
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people are in the middle, but there are a few
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super hypnos. Trademark science verses. These are incredibly hypnotisable people
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that can be made to not recognise themselves in the mirror.
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After the break, what's going on in the brain of
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a super hypno? And how far can you take these
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highly hypnotisable people when they're under? Hey, it's Wendy from
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Science Versus, and I want to tell you about a
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00:18:06.099 --> 00:18:09.539
podcast that I love, Science Friday. They cover all sorts
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00:18:09.579 --> 00:18:12.900
of amazing things in the weird and wonderful world of science,
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00:18:13.309 --> 00:18:16.970
from how concussions affect our brain to the inner secrets
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00:18:17.269 --> 00:18:20.250
of a snake with a spider on its It's a
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00:18:20.269 --> 00:18:22.650
lot of news that you can use and some that
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00:18:22.670 --> 00:18:25.099
you can't, but you're going to love anyway. It's hosted
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00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:28.839
by Ira Flatto and Flora Lichtman, who is an old
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00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:31.619
friend of the show and loves a pun as much
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as we do. Science Friday is on every day wherever
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you get your podcasts. Welcome back. So what is happening
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in the mind of highly hypnotisable people? Are they under
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some weird kind of mind control? Well, there is a
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much simpler explanation. Placebo. Like the way that taking a
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sugar pill that you believe is a painkiller can cure
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a headache. Could believing that hypnosis is real and magical
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make you experience it as real and magical? Professor Amir
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Raz is a researcher of cognitive science at McGill University
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in Montreal.
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The whole hypnosis thing can be construed as some kind
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of a complex placebo effect where things happen just because
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you believe they're about to happen.
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And some academics do think of hypnosis this way. They
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point to studies which show that people's preconceived ideas about
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what happens when you go under influence what happens when
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you go under. Think about those women on stage at
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the casino. They did all these things that comedian Jim
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Spenato wanted them to do. And under this placebo theory,
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they did those things because they went into the comedy club...
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expecting that that's what being hypnotised would be like. But
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there is debate here. Other researchers argue that expectation and
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placebo isn't so important in hypnosis, and they have studies
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to back up their opinions. It's this conflicting evidence that
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led Amir to build what he calls... The funny room.
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There's a system, a clandestine system, a hidden system of
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some speakers in the ceiling. And we told them that
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only highly hypnotisable people can hear a mosquito flying in
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the room.
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Then Amir pretends to hypnotise these subjects. And then he
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starts to play recordings of mosquitoes flying very faintly through
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these hidden speakers.
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And then they say, you know, goodness.
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So picture it. People think they are deeply hypnotized. They're not.
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And they hear a buzzing sound that they think they're
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hearing because they're under hypnosis. But really, it's just playing
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on the speakers. And Amir says this is just the
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first step of the experiment.
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When they come out of the funny room, they are
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sort of empowered to think that they're highly hypnotizable. And
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we wanted to see if when we empower people to
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be highly hypnotizable, regardless of whether they are or aren't,
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if they would then perform hypnosis. like a highly hypnotizable person.
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So after all this trickery, Amir actually hypnotized the participants
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and gave them suggestions. He then repeated the experiment in
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a variety of ways, all with one goal, to answer
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the question, would people who expect to be super responsive
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to hypnosis perform like people who actually are highly hypnotizable?
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And the answer is that they don't.
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That is, they didn't do all the things that Amir asked,
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things that truly hypnotisable people would do, meaning that people's
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expectations don't fully explain how they react to real hypnosis,
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which has led Amir to believe that hypnosis cannot be
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completely explained by placebo.
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I can very emphatically say that a large part of
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what hypnosis is But then again, I'm not for a
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second claiming that hypnosis is only placebo.
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A 2006 experiment, charmingly titled Expect the Unexpected, which came
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from a different team of researchers, also found that expectation
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could not fully explain how people respond to hypnosis. They
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wrote that the idea that it's all expectation, quote, seems
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too extreme, end quote. Conclusion The placebo effect can explain
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some of why hypnosis works, but it appears that it
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doesn't explain everything. So, what else is going on in
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these highly hypnotisable people? For decades, researchers have probed the
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brains of these people, trying to answer this very question
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using brain scanners, MRIs or PET scanners. And some of
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these small studies have found that the brains of people
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who are experiencing something under hypnosis look an awful lot
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like the brains of people who are actually experiencing the
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real thing. Let me give you an example. So there
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was this study of a man who was hypnotised and
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told that he couldn't move his leg. And the researchers
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found that the activity of two areas in his brain
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looked really similar to a person who actually had this
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condition known as hysteria paralysis. It's a rare psychological condition
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where you can't move a body part, in this case,
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a leg. The paper was published in The Lancet. In
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another study, researchers scanned the brains of eight highly hypnotisable
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people while they played them an audio recording of a
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generic sentence with no particular significance. This is what it was.
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The man did not speak often, but when he did,
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it was worth hearing what he had to say.
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And they played it over and over and over again
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so that it would get stuck in the subject's mind.
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The man did not speak often, but when he did,
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it was worth hearing what he had to say.
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Then the people were hypnotized and told that they were
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hearing the recording again.
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The man did not speak.
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But they weren't. They were just hypnotized and thought they
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were hearing it. Finally, the people were told to imagine
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hearing the line. No hypnosis this time, just thinking about it.
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The man did not speak often, but when he did,
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it was worth hearing what he had to say. The
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researchers found that when the people heard the recording, a
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particular area of their brain lit up. And when they
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were hypnotised, that same area also lit up, just like
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when they were hearing it. But when they were told
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to merely imagine the recording, when they weren't hypnotised at all,
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that part of the brain stayed dark. The same effect
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has been seen when people are hypnotised and told that
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they're feeling pain, and even when they're told they can't
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see colour. Now, within these brain studies, there's a particular
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area of the noggin that comes up over and over again.
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It's called the anterior cingulate cortex. It's a hook-shaped node
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in the middle of the front of the brain. And
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it seems to affect how we perceive the world around us.
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There's even evidence suggesting that it affects how we perceive
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our own pain. So if this area gets tweaked during hypnosis,
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it kind of makes sense that it would change a
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person's perception of reality. Here's Amir again.
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If the anterior cingulate cortex begins to monitor behavior differently
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and decides that something is sad when it's not so sad,
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or the other way around, that something is really funny
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00:25:35.740 --> 00:25:37.880
when it's not so funny, this would bring about a
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very dramatic change in behavior. Very dramatic.
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Now, all this research suggests that a hypnotist is kind
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of controlling people's minds. But there are problems with these studies.
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For one, they're often really small. Plus, it's really hard
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to interpret the brain. Yes, areas of the brain light
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up in particular patterns. But the brain is lighting up
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in different ways all the time, and it's very hard
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to control for these variables, particularly when you have so
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few people in a given study. So... For example, when
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we look back at that leg paralysis study where the
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man's brain lit up in two areas just like a
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real patient with hysteria paralysis. Well, recently that same group
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of researchers looked at 12 other people, repeated the general
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experiment and couldn't replicate their results. And just to make
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my brain hurt and maybe your brain hurt a little
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bit more, while those leg studies that we talked about
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used PET scanners, many others have used MRIs. And a
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study out this year found that some computer programs used
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to interpret MRI scans are actually spitting out unreliable results,
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making areas of the brain look like they're lighting up
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when actually they aren't. The implications of this work are
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still being nutted out and the results of that study
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will need to be replicated. But meanwhile, here's how Philip
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summed up our current knowledge of the brain under hypnosis.
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So we can look at the brain and we can,
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to some extent, look at the brain functioning. But there's
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a lot that goes on we don't have a clue about.
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Conclusion. Some studies suggest that the brain is affected in
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powerful ways under hypnosis. but there can be real issues
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with interpreting some of these studies. So for now, the
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hypnotised brain remains a mystery. Next question. So even though
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we don't know what is happening in the brain under hypnosis,
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there is still this question of what we can actually
483
00:27:46.809 --> 00:27:50.359
make people do when they're under hypnosis. Now, one way
484
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:53.420
to answer this question would be to push people to
485
00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:57.200
their limits, really make them do something under hypnosis that
486
00:27:57.220 --> 00:28:01.480
they would never want to do. Amanda Barnier pushes her
487
00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:02.900
subjects pretty far.
488
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:04.400
He said, it's not me.
489
00:28:04.809 --> 00:28:06.650
But even she has her limits.
490
00:28:07.390 --> 00:28:10.650
I don't know how far and I don't know that
491
00:28:10.970 --> 00:28:14.230
it's not ethical to test how far that mind control
492
00:28:14.269 --> 00:28:16.849
will go. I haven't tested and I don't know where
493
00:28:16.869 --> 00:28:18.609
the limit is. There's going to be a limit somewhere.
494
00:28:20.170 --> 00:28:20.910
I don't want to test it.
495
00:28:22.069 --> 00:28:27.829
Ugh. Academics with their pesky ethics. Well, there's one organisation
496
00:28:27.869 --> 00:28:32.059
that doesn't have to worry about those. The CIA. And
497
00:28:32.099 --> 00:28:35.259
in fact, in the 1950s, they looked at how far
498
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:39.539
you could push hypnosis using covert programs with adorable names
499
00:28:39.619 --> 00:28:45.730
like Project Bluebird, Project Artichoke and the less adorable MKUltra.
500
00:28:46.589 --> 00:28:50.390
A partially redacted CIA memo summarized their thoughts on the
501
00:28:50.430 --> 00:28:51.970
potentials of hypnosis.
502
00:28:52.869 --> 00:28:59.900
Fifth of May, 1955. Subject, hypnotism and covert operations. I
503
00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:02.740
apologize for submitting a document as long as this one.
504
00:29:03.339 --> 00:29:06.839
The subject is highly controversial, and even this treatment, which
505
00:29:06.900 --> 00:29:07.660
may appear long.
506
00:29:08.180 --> 00:29:10.660
Is abbreviated. Don't, just get to the important bit.
507
00:29:12.019 --> 00:29:13.880
Is this a part of, like, our, is this what
508
00:29:13.900 --> 00:29:14.319
we're doing?
509
00:29:14.380 --> 00:29:15.640
Is this a part of, like, us acting?
510
00:29:15.779 --> 00:29:15.920
Yeah.
511
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:22.359
OK, because that really surprised me. The possibilities are not
512
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:26.819
only interesting, they are frightening. A kind of double-think Orwellian
513
00:29:26.859 --> 00:29:30.849
world of hypnosis, while unlikely, is not utterly fantastic.
514
00:29:32.829 --> 00:29:36.190
The CIA knew this Orwellian world was unlikely because of
515
00:29:36.289 --> 00:29:39.849
studies they cited in their declassified documents, like this one.
516
00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:44.079
where researchers told a deeply hypnotised woman to stab and
517
00:29:44.180 --> 00:29:49.650
poison several people. She did so without even hesitating. But
518
00:29:50.390 --> 00:29:53.009
when they told her to undress, she snapped out of
519
00:29:53.049 --> 00:29:56.769
her hypnotised state and refused. The thing is, she knew
520
00:29:56.789 --> 00:30:00.390
the murders weren't real. And they weren't. The researchers had
521
00:30:00.509 --> 00:30:03.819
used rubber daggers and sugar pills for the poison. But
522
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:07.380
the undressing? That was real, and she could tell the difference.
523
00:30:08.380 --> 00:30:11.700
Which is why, in 1960, the CIA concluded in a
524
00:30:11.740 --> 00:30:13.839
declassified report... It.
525
00:30:13.819 --> 00:30:17.849
Appears extremely doubtful that trans can be induced in resistant subjects.
526
00:30:20.190 --> 00:30:23.509
So that's the CIA. And 50 years later, Jim Spinato
527
00:30:23.609 --> 00:30:28.019
and his R-rated hypnosis show also ran up against those limits.
528
00:30:28.609 --> 00:30:30.789
He got those women to do some pretty weird stuff
529
00:30:30.849 --> 00:30:33.710
on stage when they were under. Here's Lauren, the real
530
00:30:33.750 --> 00:30:34.390
estate agent.
531
00:30:34.410 --> 00:30:37.049
F * * *.
532
00:30:34.410 --> 00:30:36.650
Ing, f * * * ing.
533
00:30:36.829 --> 00:30:40.230
Motherf * * * ing... She did most of Jim's suggestions,
534
00:30:40.589 --> 00:30:44.519
but not one. Jim suggested that she go nuts making
535
00:30:44.579 --> 00:30:50.059
out with her husband when Jim would say the words... Pinkies, pinkies, pinkies, pinkies, pinkies!
536
00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:53.920
Jim said that she wouldn't be able to control herself
537
00:30:53.960 --> 00:30:58.470
with her husband. Now, Lauren sat in her husband's lap...
538
00:30:58.849 --> 00:31:00.970
Kissed him a little, but that was it.
539
00:31:01.190 --> 00:31:04.769
At that point, I already was, OK, there's a lot
540
00:31:04.789 --> 00:31:06.779
of people here and that's inappropriate.
541
00:31:06.819 --> 00:31:08.880
Let's just kiss like normal people.
542
00:31:08.900 --> 00:31:12.980
OK, so hypnosis probably won't make us undress in front
543
00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:15.839
of strangers or maul our husband on stage if we
544
00:31:15.940 --> 00:31:19.000
actually don't want to do that. But what about the
545
00:31:19.099 --> 00:31:22.660
smaller things, things we might actually want to do, like
546
00:31:23.140 --> 00:31:27.190
quit smoking, lose weight, sleep better, or maybe even stop pain, say,
547
00:31:27.470 --> 00:31:31.000
during childbirth? There are lots of claims out there that
548
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:33.680
hypnosis can do the trick for all of these things.
549
00:31:34.900 --> 00:31:38.400
But the problem is there just isn't enough good evidence
550
00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:42.609
to show whether or not hypnosis works for any of these. Yes,
551
00:31:42.869 --> 00:31:46.750
there have been clinical trials, but sometimes they aren't particularly
552
00:31:46.789 --> 00:31:49.509
good quality. They typically don't have a lot of people
553
00:31:49.569 --> 00:31:52.930
within them, and scientists use different ways to hypnotise their
554
00:31:52.990 --> 00:31:56.329
subjects in different studies, which makes it really difficult to
555
00:31:56.369 --> 00:32:00.650
compare results and come up with solid findings. It also
556
00:32:00.809 --> 00:32:03.970
makes it really difficult to say the likelihood that hypnosis
557
00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:12.220
can help you. Conclusion. Even highly hypnotisable people probably won't
558
00:32:12.279 --> 00:32:16.140
do everything they're told to by a hypnotist. Best we
559
00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:19.450
can tell, there are limits. Even when you go into
560
00:32:19.490 --> 00:32:23.069
a trance, you can probably snap yourself out of it.
561
00:32:24.130 --> 00:32:28.180
Which takes us back to my greatest fear. being forced
562
00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:33.019
to make animal noises while I'm under hypnosis. Straight after
563
00:32:33.099 --> 00:32:36.529
Philip Muskin hypnotised me in his office, I asked him...
564
00:32:36.740 --> 00:32:39.849
With more work, could you make me quack like a duck?
565
00:32:41.089 --> 00:32:45.710
If you wanted to. That is, if you wanted, during
566
00:32:45.769 --> 00:32:48.470
the experience, to be disinhibited in that way.
567
00:32:49.250 --> 00:32:53.670
For me, I guess whether, say, to bark like a
568
00:32:53.690 --> 00:32:56.250
duck or bark like a dog or quack like a duck,
569
00:32:56.529 --> 00:33:01.670
that would be... Evidence for me about the power of hypnosis,
570
00:33:01.730 --> 00:33:02.089
I guess.
571
00:33:02.150 --> 00:33:05.670
The power of hypnosis is internal. What you're saying is
572
00:33:05.769 --> 00:33:08.880
that would be evidence of my power over you. That
573
00:33:08.940 --> 00:33:10.160
is not how hypnosis works.
574
00:33:10.819 --> 00:33:15.079
So when it comes to science versus hypnosis, does it
575
00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:24.250
stack up? First, does hypnosis really work? Well, on stage,
576
00:33:24.329 --> 00:33:27.210
there's peer pressure and wanting to get a laugh. So
577
00:33:27.269 --> 00:33:29.490
it's hard to know how many of those people are
578
00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:32.880
faking it. And in fact, even in the lab, picking
579
00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:35.720
out a faker can be a problem. But based on
580
00:33:35.740 --> 00:33:39.200
the research we have found, hypnosis does seem to be
581
00:33:39.339 --> 00:33:45.079
a real thing. Next, can everyone be hypnotised? No, but
582
00:33:45.180 --> 00:33:49.559
most of us probably can. People fall along a spectrum
583
00:33:49.640 --> 00:33:53.299
of hypnotisability and about 10 to 15% of people are
584
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:58.380
highly hypnotisable. OK, now, what is happening in your brain
585
00:33:58.460 --> 00:34:02.140
when you are under? Well, that is something that scientists
586
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:08.389
are very much still trying to figure out. For people
587
00:34:08.429 --> 00:34:11.289
who do seem to be highly hypnotisable, there is a
588
00:34:11.409 --> 00:34:15.269
chance that what we're seeing isn't them under hypnosis, but
589
00:34:15.329 --> 00:34:20.449
rather the placebo effect in action. But placebo doesn't explain
590
00:34:20.699 --> 00:34:25.090
all experiences of hypnosis. Still, according to the science, you're
591
00:34:25.139 --> 00:34:30.429
not under a spell or someone else's control. And for now,
592
00:34:30.610 --> 00:34:34.369
there is no evidence that you entirely lose control of yourself.
593
00:34:35.110 --> 00:34:39.190
So if hypnosis isn't all faking, and it's not all placebo,
594
00:34:39.570 --> 00:34:46.070
and it's not mind control, what is it? Here's the
595
00:34:46.150 --> 00:34:50.480
best answer we got. When your mind is truly focused
596
00:34:50.860 --> 00:34:55.079
and all you can hear is the hypnotist's voice, you're
597
00:34:55.099 --> 00:35:01.110
just more likely to follow suggestions. Hearing this just baffled
598
00:35:01.170 --> 00:35:04.840
me a lot. So I asked Philip Musken about it.
599
00:35:05.550 --> 00:35:09.699
The trance and the being very, very focused, I can
600
00:35:09.889 --> 00:35:13.619
completely understand. But the fact that then your mind is
601
00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:18.739
more malleable... more likely to be suggestible when you're concentrating.
602
00:35:19.079 --> 00:35:21.570
How does that happen? How does that happen?
603
00:35:21.590 --> 00:35:25.489
So how does it work? We don't know. And, of course,
604
00:35:25.610 --> 00:35:29.650
whenever we don't know how something works, it either makes
605
00:35:29.730 --> 00:35:33.570
us think it's false, BS of some sort.
606
00:35:33.769 --> 00:35:34.349
But you don't.
607
00:35:35.219 --> 00:35:38.719
I don't. I don't from my personal experience. I don't
608
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:40.679
from my experience with patients.
609
00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:43.659
Does it frustrate you that there's not a mechanism at
610
00:35:43.699 --> 00:35:44.800
play that we know about?
611
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:50.860
We don't know about so much that, you know, truly
612
00:35:50.900 --> 00:35:53.760
if you get yourself caught up in all the things
613
00:35:53.860 --> 00:36:00.030
we don't know, the world seems hopeless. I'll give you
614
00:36:00.070 --> 00:36:04.750
a common example. Falling in love. Most everybody falls in love.
615
00:36:04.949 --> 00:36:09.030
You see somebody and you say hello and you're pretty
616
00:36:09.050 --> 00:36:11.610
much in love at that moment. Boom. What is that?
617
00:36:13.699 --> 00:36:14.699
We could come up with stuff.
618
00:36:15.219 --> 00:36:16.039
But we're making it up.
619
00:36:16.739 --> 00:36:19.199
So while a lot of hypnosis remains a mystery, it
620
00:36:19.880 --> 00:36:23.969
does seem that there is something about being so completely
621
00:36:24.110 --> 00:36:29.550
focused on the words that someone tells you, so completely
622
00:36:29.710 --> 00:36:34.510
focused on the words that someone tells you, that everything
623
00:36:34.610 --> 00:36:40.170
else just fades away, just fades away. And you are
624
00:36:40.369 --> 00:36:45.710
so focused on the words that you hear that so
625
00:36:45.989 --> 00:36:50.159
focused on the words that you hear that you just
626
00:36:50.340 --> 00:36:58.280
nod your heads and you start to..... like a chicken.
627
00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:05.110
That's science versus hypnosis. This episode has been produced by
628
00:37:05.170 --> 00:37:08.710
Heather Rogers, Caitlin Kenney, Austin Mitchell, Dr Diane Wu and
629
00:37:08.769 --> 00:37:13.219
Truti Ravindran. Our senior producer is Caitlin Sori. Edited by
630
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:17.179
Annie Rose Strasser and fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Sound design
631
00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:20.360
and music production by Matthew Boll, mixed by Martin Peralta.
632
00:37:20.579 --> 00:37:23.949
Music written by Martin Peralta and Bobby Lord. Thanks to
633
00:37:24.010 --> 00:37:27.369
Alex Bloomberg for being the man that spoke pretty often
634
00:37:27.449 --> 00:37:27.869
in the end.
635
00:37:27.889 --> 00:37:29.369
It was worth hearing what he had to say.
636
00:37:30.130 --> 00:37:33.550
And Jonathan Goldstein for being our CIA agent. And if
637
00:37:33.570 --> 00:37:35.630
you like the sound of that CIA agent.
638
00:37:35.730 --> 00:37:36.750
That really surprised me.
639
00:37:36.829 --> 00:37:39.969
then you will love Jonathan's new show. It's called Heavyweight.
640
00:37:40.309 --> 00:37:43.829
You can subscribe now, Heavyweight, and hang around for a
641
00:37:43.849 --> 00:37:46.849
preview of it in just a moment. Science Versus is
642
00:37:46.889 --> 00:37:51.239
a production of Gimlet Media. Next week, we're looking at Zika.
643
00:37:51.820 --> 00:37:54.699
Should you be worried? And why is it becoming a
644
00:37:54.760 --> 00:38:00.710
big deal now? I'm Wendy Zuckerman... Back to you next time.