WEBVTT
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We tend to think that accountability is somehow synonymous with control.
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And that if we hold someone accountable, we're trying to control their behavior and they are totally different.
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I often talk about and have written in the past about the gift of accountability.
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Like we've got to think of accountability as a gift we give people that is us expressing our expectations so that they have the freedom to move inside those expectations.
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Hello and welcome everyone to Inside Conscience-Driven Leadership.
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I'm your host, Hannah Miller.
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And I am Julie Huber, co-conspirator and cancer survivor.
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Congratulations again on that.
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That's always exciting.
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Yeah, I'm here for it.
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For those of you who are unfamiliar, conscience-driven leadership is a model for leadership that I authored that is focused on intuitive leadership and is a model for intuitive leaders who are driven by their conscience, not a drive for success or money or power, but driven to use their intuition to help build systems that help people.
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So you can learn more at conscience-drivenleadership.com.
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And we will talk about it more here on the podcast.
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We covered some of the basics in season one.
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Yes.
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And a really key aspect of CDL is trust physics.
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And that is a way to stay whole in your relationships by holding people accountable in a way that drives relationships forward and not down.
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Indeed.
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And accountability, accountability is honestly where this whole thing started.
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Because accountability is the problem I encounter most with my clients at every level of leadership of why don't people do what I want them to do?
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How do I make people do what I need them to do?
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And how do I do that without being a big meanie that everyone hates?
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Uh, right.
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Like I don't, and so because I tend to I work with conscience-driven leaders, they tend to really want, they care about people, they don't want to be assholes.
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So they're like, how do I do accountability without being an asshole?
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And I wound up developing what is the heart of the trust physics, which is the accountability sequence with clients actively who needed help doing this, because this is how I ran the circus.
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Like when I figured out how to hold people accountable, it was through these steps.
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And so codifying those steps and practicing them with clients eventually led to trust physics.
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Yeah, that's fantastic.
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And I'm curious if you can just bring it down to the more basic level before we kind of get into those steps of what is accountability.
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Yes, because words, words are so important.
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We're nerds about words and we like it that way.
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So let's start with like the common definition of accountability.
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And this is what when I start talking about accountability, people usually assume I mean, which is I take responsibility for my actions, right?
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Accountability as a thing, as a characteristic of me as a person.
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I am a person who holds myself accountable.
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You don't have to hold me accountable, which is problematic because then if someone needs to hold you accountable, which is a very reasonable thing that will happen to all of us, then that means you needed to be held accountable.
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And that must mean you are a terrible person who is unaccountable and therefore bad.
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Uh so I don't like that definition.
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So let's go a level deeper.
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If we're talking about leadership, we're talking about helping people align their behavior with expectations.
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We went deep into expectations last episode about how expectations are the building blocks of trust.
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It's how people know what we want from them.
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And so sometimes as a leader, we have to align people.
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And that's closer, certainly, right?
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Alignment is important in trust physics.
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Um, helping people's behavior and their align with your expectations, clearly the thing is that is holding someone accountable.
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But for trust physics, it's deeper than that because it trust physics doesn't wait for the rupture to happen.
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It doesn't wait until a relationship needs repair to engage with accountability.
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So in trust physics, the definition of accountability is the act of naming and addressing misalignment so people, relationships, and systems can stay whole.
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Because, right, we love wholeness, we like integrity, which is about wholeness in this model.
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And so accountability is the conversation we're always having to keep misalignment at bay and to address it as soon as it appears so that it doesn't lead to, oh no, the relationship is doomed.
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When I think about accountability in a work setting, especially, I think about how one way that people feel good about going to work and love their job is when they feel like their work matters.
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Uh, when they feel like they're really doing something, their work is contributing to something bigger than them, whether that is the relationships they have on the job or if it's the mission that they're serving at their organization, they really want to contribute to something bigger and not feel like they're just doing busy work that goes nowhere.
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So accountability is really the gift of knowing what the work takes.
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If people don't know what success looks like, they may feel like they're just feeling around in the dark without knowing if their efforts are going to be successful or if they're gonna disappoint you.
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And so I think we shy away sometimes from accountability, especially from the beginning, because we want to just say, oh, I trust you to do this.
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This is great.
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But if they don't know what the edges are, if they don't know what success looks like, they're gonna spend so much time just trying to find those boundaries that they're never actually gonna get to the work.
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Absolutely.
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And right, that's about agency.
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That's about, you know, it's it's we tend to think that accountability is somehow synonymous with control.
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And that if we hold someone accountable, we're trying to control their behavior and they are totally different.
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I often talk about and I've written in the past about the gift of accountability.
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Like we got to think of accountability as a gift we give people that is us expressing our expectations so that they have the freedom to move inside those expectations instead of finding out after the fact that they failed to meet our expectations.
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Because if accountability is about telling someone when they failed, not how to succeed and what success looks like, then it is, it's punitive, it's controlling, it's and it's no fun for either person.
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And it and it absolutely ruptures the relationship and makes trust harder to rebuild.
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Whereas if accountability is something we practice when the stakes are zero, right?
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If accountability is a conversation that begins when there is no rupture to be had, and it starts with curiosity of like, hey, relationship, did you know the edges are here?
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Because I didn't want you to wander past them.
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I saw you headed toward the exit.
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Did you mean to be headed toward the exit?
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Because if you meant to be staying on the dance floor, then here's where the dance floor is.
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And then it's like, oh great, thank you.
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I didn't mean to be headed for the exit.
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Um, right, because people don't know, especially when a relationship is new, we have no idea what someone else is thinking.
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We make this mistake constantly where we we assume that because we think our thoughts are logical, that other people's thoughts are logical, and other people's thoughts are logical, but the logic is different in different brains.
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So accountability is that shared language.
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Amazing.
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Yeah, I think this shows up a lot for managers and how managers work.
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And I think it's particularly important for them to think about this because management is one of those things that is often thrust upon people as they grow in their career, where we don't get a lot of training for it, but we're expected to um get positive outcomes by being managers.
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And uh that also has an impact on the people you're managing.
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Um, and they are whole people who deserve a positive work environment and yet sometimes they're managed by people who never got the training to know what that looks like.
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And so I think this is a really key thing you can do if you are a manager and you want to make sure that you are setting yourself up for success and your employees up for success, because in the end it's the same thing.
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Really, what that looks like, what that doesn't look like is saying, okay, well, just do your job and I'll let you know if you're doing it wrong.
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You know, this and that often means the manager hasn't really thought through what success looks like or they're not sure.
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So they just kind of want to see it at play and then you know, tell someone that they're doing something wrong if it's not quite what you think it should be.
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And then it that that target's gonna move because if you don't know what it is, it's there are a lot more wrong options than pa than right options.
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Ain't that the truth?
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And you're touching on something that I see happen all the time.
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And I don't think it happens as much in conscience-driven cultures where there is conscience-driven leadership because conscience-driven leaders understand the people they're leading very well.
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And so they tend to promote people with an aptitude for management and with an aptitude for people and communication.
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But in most businesses, in most situations and cultures, especially in corporate environments, people get promoted as a reward for excellent performance.
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People get promoted not because they're they they get made manager, not because they are demonstrating any skill at management, but because they are an individual contributor who is kicking ass at their job.
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And so what do they get?
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More money, yes, but they also get the one thing they are best at taken away from them.
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And they are then given this whole new job that they have no idea how to do because an individual contributor is generally not somebody who loved the like group project.
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And management is a group project.
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Like if you're good at group projects, you should be in management because it's about making sure you communicate constantly to everyone.
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It's about understanding different people's skills and talents and struggles and conflict styles and navigating all of that to make sure the work gets done.
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And it requires caring about people.
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And a lot of times an individual contributor is like, please just let me do a really good job and leave me alone.
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And then they wind up in management, and all they know how to do is just let me do it.
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Or you're doing that wrong, do it how I do it, which most people can't do because really excellent contributors tend to be special in that way, which is great.
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I haven't we heard that all the time of like, why can't you just do it the way that I would?
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Just do it the right way.
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But that hasn't, if that hasn't been communicated, we all have different brains.
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And if they don't know what the target is, yeah, they're gonna be doing a lot of things that you wouldn't do.
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Absolutely.
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And I use I use the Clifton Strengths Assessment for this all the time because it's a really great shorthand for understanding the different thoughts, feelings, and the different patterns of thought, feeling, and behavior that drive people and motivate people and that they operate in because we are all different, right?
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Like, and I love it because this is just an aside on strengths and why it's great, is because I grew up I grew up in a circus and a circus is a strength-based organization, right?
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An acrobat is somebody who can do backflips and tumble around.
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That requires a certain body type and size, right?
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Like acrobats have short torsos, long limbs, and they're not very tall, typically.
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That is how they do all the bouncy flippy stuff.
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I would make a really crappy acrobat.
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I would crack my head open because I am not turning over.
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I'm long in the torso, on the tall side, you know, broad in the bone.
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It's just not what I'm wired for.
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Um, but I have other talents that are very useful, right?
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Like I like to, I like to be in the spotlight, I like to talk to people.
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These are the kinds of jobs that I'm good at.
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So you can you can identify who belongs in what job by looking at them in many cases in the circus, or by seeing what they perform, like juggling is a skill.
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If you can juggle or you can't.
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Um, if you can juggle, you can juggle better.
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We can juggle knives and fire.
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We can, we can amplify a skill, but we can't start from scratch unless you're five.
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We assume people work like us because we don't have another mental model.
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We don't know what it's like to be in someone else's brain.
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And so if we have a language that identifies someone's talent, we can then we can go, oh, your brain works like that.
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Cool.
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My brain works like this.
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Here's the places we should overlap, here's the places we should, we should not overlap and we should work independently.
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Um, so it's a helpful tool.
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That's great.
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I think that makes a lot of sense.
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And I think it's actually a good segue to think about the kind of key components of an accountability conversation that will really work.
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Uh, because it's it's often easy to name what isn't working, but really finding those tools so that a manager can say, I don't, I want to care about people.
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I want to set them up for success, but where do I start?
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I think this is a good place to start and a good place to really think.
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So uh we can kind of break this down, but uh I just want to name them first, is really it takes presence, vulnerability, and repair.
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So let's start on the presence side.
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It's the choice to actively be there in the conversation.
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And this is something that we as a society isn't as practiced in as perhaps we used to be.
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Uh, we are noses in our phones, uh, we are easily distracted, our attention spans are shorter because of kind of the the short form videos we're watching and the kind of quick entertainment that we see in our society.
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But it's one reason that when you can be very present and when you are really in a conversation, that really matters.
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Uh so you're not thinking about what you're gonna say next while they're talking.
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Um you're not kind of engrossed in your own thoughts and interpretations of what they're saying.
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You're not making up the story behind what they're saying.
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You're committed to listening and to keep working through a hard conversation.
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So, you know, it's very easy for your brain just to go wild of, oh, they said this, I think this is why they said it, and this and this and this.
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And now you're building up this story that they're not even party to.
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Um They have no idea, yeah.
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Yeah.
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But if you're present and you're listening and you're asking the questions and inviting them into your brain, uh, then that's a really key aspect of having accountability conversation.
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Do you have examples of that or or other things you'd add to that, Hannah?
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I mean, I think I would tie it to the first step in the accountability sequence, which is curiosity.
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And I think, you know, curiosity is the touchstone that I think we have to return to constantly when we're trying to do accountability conversations, because you're right.
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As soon as there's a story in my head about what's happening, I'm not curious anymore.
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I'm curious, maybe I'm curious about the story in my head, but I'm not curious about the person and their experience and what's going on.
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I think culturally we're at a moment where curiosity is really not encouraged.
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And, you know, I think we're, I think in a lot of different turns, whether that it's, you know, in the media or in politics or whatever, we're really encouraged to put people into boxes and to label them and to decide on their behalf who they are and what's going on and why they're behaving the way they are.
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And we don't know, we never know why someone is behaving the the way they are.
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And that we have another saying in leadership that gets passed around a lot: assume positive intent.
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And assume positive isn't intent is a nice idea, but it's still an assumption.
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Yeah.
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And curiosity is what gets you past an assumption and to the reality.
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And the reality could be that this is somebody who isn't going to tell you the truth.
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That's that's an option.
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But curiosity gets you to, keeps you in the present.
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It keeps you in the moment because you're wondering what's going on with them.
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And and I think that like that just connects everything.
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That makes you a human in a room with another human or a human in a Zoom or on a phone call with another human.
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And that's really necessary.
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You can't do accountability in a way that is about repair and about healing relationships and about correcting misalignment if you're making assumptions.
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Yeah, I want to go back to that phrase of uh assuming good intent.
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I think that really protects the status quo.
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It puts um manipulative boundaries around what you're allowed to question and what you're not.
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Uh and it can put a hold on being present and asking honest and having honest conversation.
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Uh so I'm I'm glad you brought that out.
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And it sounds like we have similar thoughts around it.
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Yeah, I really enjoyed your face when I said that phrase.
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You were like, uh-uh.
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I don't think so.
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Because I feel like that's something that we have talked about at SARSUF in the past when we've worked together, is like, you know, it and it's great, right?
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Like I have a kind of counter to that, this intrus physics, and that's something I talk about all the time, which I call mustard, right?
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Which is don't because mustard is a great flavor, but too much of it and it ruins everything, right?
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Like mustard is the only thing you can taste when mustard is involved most of the time.
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And so the this, like one of a great example I have from a client is somebody who is a manager, mid-level manager, high performer, got promoted, did not know how to supervise other people, and was frustrated as hell that she's like, why am I a babysitter?
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I don't want to babysit these people, right?
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Like, why do I have to tell them how to do their jobs?
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I'm like, because you're their manager.
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It's you're not your job to tell them how to do their job, but it's your job to tell them what doing their job means and then make sure they're doing that.
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Like it is your job to hold them accountable.
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But for her, nobody had ever had to hold her accountable.
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She was a high performer, she was really driven, she understood her job.
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This was not, but man, she had a story about these people and why they were not doing their job.
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They didn't care, they were lazy, they, you know, like it was all there was this whole story.
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And I was like, that is just all mustard.
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Like, we gotta, we gotta take the mustard out of the situation and go like, go be curious, be like, do you fully understand the work?
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If you do understand the work and you're not doing it, then what, you know, what's the close supervision?
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You you can't have to do accountability closely in a way where you're checking all the time that they're doing what they're saying they're so they're supposed to do and what they've said they'll do, right?
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Like accountability is not always fun.
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There are people who don't want to be held accountable, and a lot of cultural training has gone into teaching people how to dodge accountability.
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And we talked about this a little bit on our last episode.
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We use there's the ways we use language to dodge accountability, there's way we gaslight other people into saying, well, I didn't know or it wasn't clear or whatever.
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:56.640
And so accountability is the structure that keeps people doing the thing that you've agreed on.
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:03.440
And if they continue to not do the thing you've agreed on, that leads to escorting them off of the dance floor.
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:14.880
You know, when you talk about a high performer and how they aren't someone that often has to be held accountable, uh, I think they often are, but they just don't see it that way.
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:29.680
Because I think it's common for a high performer that loves to work and to do things and loves to do it well, maybe centers perfectionism in a way that um can be difficult.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:31.119
I mean, or not.
00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:36.480
You know, there's there's just a lot of different traits that go with being kind of a high performer as we think about it too.
00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:41.279
And they can start going down a track that isn't actually helpful.
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:46.160
Maybe they have a manager that knows that they're a high performer, so they need less of a touch.
00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:49.920
And so they start really going at something.
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.319
And it turns out that's not what was needed.
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:59.279
Or it turns out that that was not the right approach, but they're already going down the road and they are focused on it.
00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:03.599
That can be a difficult accountability conversation, but it's an important one for them too.
00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:04.559
Absolutely.
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:11.200
I actually, I actually did something, I I didn't do it recently, but it came to it came to a head recently.
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:17.920
I have a really I hope she's okay with me using this story on the podcast, but I have this really amazing virtual assistant.
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.119
And she is so dedicated and so driven.
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:28.160
And when there is a deadline, she's gonna work, she's gonna work until it gets done so that it's done on time.
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:39.920
And a few times, we've been working together for years, a few times in the past, she's gone over budget in order in terms of hours, in order to hit a deadline in time.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:43.359
And that's happened, you know, just a couple of times over the years.
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:44.799
They weren't close together.
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.839
And I had needed the deadline more than I needed the money to pay her.
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:52.480
And so I just paid her and I didn't say anything.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:57.839
And I thought to myself at the time, I totally like in hindsight, I'm like, dummy, Hannah, why didn't you do the thing?
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:01.519
Because at the time I was like, I should really tell her, like, tell me before you go over.
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:03.200
Like, it's not a hard conversation.
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:14.880
Hey, I appreciate your dedication, but I need to know how you know I budgeted for this and if it's gonna cost more, I need the chance to to weigh in on that.
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:26.880
So I've recently referred her to several of my clients who are loving her and she's incredible and she really drives, you know, she she gets the thing done even when it takes a lot of hours, which is admirable and wonderful.
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:30.960
But she did this with a client who I'm managing the invoices.
00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:32.160
And so she sent me a news.
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:35.519
She's like, by the way, I went over on hours to hit the deadline.
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:36.799
Here's my new invoice.
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:39.680
And I had to say, I was like, ah, dummy, Hannah.
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:42.640
Like, I should have said something to you about this years ago.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:48.000
But like, you should really, you need to tell the client you're gonna go over before you go over.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:48.559
Like, right?
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:51.200
Like, that's just and she felt so bad about it.
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:54.000
I felt bad for her because I'm like, I caused this.
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:57.200
This is me, this is a me fault moment, right?
00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.759
Like, bad Hannah, which leads it back to.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:09.359
Vulnerability, like I'm the one responsible here because I let her develop a habit I knew would harm her in future professional relationships.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:10.799
And I said nothing.
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:12.319
It's my fault that this happened.
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:14.160
And the client is luckily fine with it.
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.359
And they were thrilled to meet the deadline and it's all okay.
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:22.079
But like she and I wound up having this long conversation about like, oh no, do I feel bad?
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:23.440
Should I not charge for the hours?
00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:28.400
Like all these things where she was worried about her own integrity in this moment.
00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:36.000
And I, you know, like, and it was important that I take responsibility for this because I'm really the one who's at fault in this situation.
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:37.680
I mean, I appreciate you sharing that.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:42.240
And, you know, I think that does take mean you have to be present with your high performers too.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:45.359
I think it's easier to be a little more shut off because you know they're gonna do well.
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:48.640
So that kind of goes uh into the presence you're talking about.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:54.319
But you mentioned vulnerability, which is really the next key component of an accountability conversation.
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:56.319
So why don't we jump into that?
00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:10.319
Of vulnerability is really the willingness to name your discomfort and acknowledge your role, just as you acknowledged your role in uh her not knowing that going over on hours is something that has to be addressed before it happens.
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.200
Um, it's okay to admit that this is hard.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:15.279
It's okay to be human to your point.
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:17.680
It's okay to say, man, this is really tough.
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.759
And, you know, but I think we're gonna get through it together because we always do.
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:28.160
Um, and you know, in many ways, it gives the other person permission for it to be uncomfortable too, which is really important.
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:30.079
Right, because they can't read your mind.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:36.960
And if you're in a position of authority, they assume that you're fine and this is easy for you, or you're upset with it.
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:43.039
Like they're gonna make a bunch of assumptions because especially nobody likes to be told they've done something wrong.
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:46.960
And so it's really important, you know, like it's it's hard.
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:53.759
Every time I have a conversation uh that requires holding somebody accountable, it's uh it's painful, it's uncomfortable.
00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:59.279
Like I was, you know, when I had to talk to my assistant, I was like, oh crap, I feel I feel bad about this.
00:23:59.359 --> 00:23:59.839
I don't want to.
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:06.000
I've I felt so bad I didn't do it the other times, which is right, like the which is the no the big no-no.
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:08.480
I'm like, I literally wrote a book on accountability.
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:12.000
And here is an example of me failing right here in the present moment.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:12.880
Awesome.
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:23.759
Um, but you reminding them that you're a human so that they can be a human and you can be two humans repairing a relationship, that's that's what matters way more.
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:33.680
You know, there's this the accountability sequence in the book will walk you through the five conversations that need to happen to make accountability work.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:35.920
And you can do them perfectly.
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:41.119
But if you don't, if you're not a human in them, then you haven't done them perfectly.
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:42.799
And you could do them real wrong.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:48.880
And if you've got presence, vulnerability and repair strong on them on the plate, you are going to be just fine, right?
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.480
Because presence vulnerability repair is what keeps mustard off the plate.
00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:53.119
Yeah.
00:24:53.359 --> 00:25:00.880
And I think this is really valuable in that scenario we talked about of a manager that isn't really defining what success is.
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:08.559
Uh, they need to be a person with that employee so that the employee can say, I don't quite know what the goal here is.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:09.440
Can we talk about it?
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:14.480
And it's possible the manager doesn't know and doesn't have the information they need to know what it is.
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:17.200
That takes vulnerability to say, you know what?
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:18.720
I don't know that yet.
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.319
So can we talk through it?
00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:22.240
What does it look like on the ground?
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:25.359
What uh do we really want to do with this?
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:26.720
Let's set these together.
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:28.640
Or I admit I don't know.
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:32.799
And the first time we do it, it may not be perfect, but let's take joint ownership of that.
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.240
This is not you doing something wrong, this is us figuring this out.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.839
And I think that takes the vulnerability and the presence into being people.
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.880
So we've talked about presence, we've talked about vulnerability.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:44.400
So you mentioned repair.
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:52.000
So repair is really owning when you get it wrong, naming it, correcting it, keep continuing to go, and it keeps those relationships whole.
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:53.759
And I those are kind of the three.
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:58.079
And I think together, they're really powerful in any scenario you find yourself in.
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:00.960
And I think they all really help you be really authentic.
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:01.440
Yeah.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:10.079
Well, and repair is ultimately being willing to engage in accountability yourself and recognizing that you that when you make a mistake, right?
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:17.839
Like and owning your part in it and taking responsibility because it's your job as a leader to make the relationship repair.
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:27.359
It's their choice whether they want to stay in a relationship that's whole, but it's your job to make sure the conditions for repair exist and you will make mistakes.
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:28.799
We will all do it.
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:36.720
Um, and owning when you do and being willing to do the thing, you know, it well could have been that I could have paid my assistant instead of my client.
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:44.079
If my client hadn't had it in the budget, then I absolutely would have eaten that because that's my responsibility, not hers.
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:47.519
I'm the and I know that I created that problem.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:54.240
So that's how I, that's an example of how I could repair this situation if it had been necessary.
00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:58.240
Luckily, we've got good relationships all around, and it was in the budget this time.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:26:59.599
It's not in the budget next time.
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:00.640
Everybody knows that now.
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.480
We are clear and crystal and great.
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:02.960
Yeah.
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:04.640
No, that's fantastic.
00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:10.559
Um, so it sounds like clarity and safety are really key in these things.
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:17.599
Being really clear with each other and having a safe environment to have important, maybe difficult conversations.
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:21.599
So, how does accountability give you this clarity, this safety?
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.000
Well, I think the clarity creates the safety.
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:27.920
And accountability is is a practice of clarity, right?
00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:39.759
Like when when we give the gift of accountability, we're giving people clarity around what's expected, what matters, what success looks like, and what happens if misalignment continues.
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:52.400
And this is the hardest part because once you've once you've named a misalignment a couple times with someone, it's really important that you tell them, hey, if this continues, that's gonna lead to the end of our relationship.
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:55.839
I need that to not be a surprise for you if it happens.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.640
I we are not to that point yet, but we are at the corner where that becomes in view.
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:08.640
And it's in view for me, so I need to make sure it's in view for you because again, we want to give people agency, not control them.
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:18.720
And so giving them the information, giving them clarity gives them the option to make the choice that's right for them, which is what creates psychological safety.
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:21.039
And that's the precursor for trust.
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:30.319
You can get so busy trying to figure out what's wanted that focus is taken away from why it's being done and what the intended outcome is.
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:38.079
So if you ha don't have that clarity, they are never going to be able to hit it because they're so busy just trying to find the bullseye.
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:44.160
Either they're trying to figure out where the bullseye is, or they're trying to figure out how not to, you know, fire into the crowd.
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:46.319
Like they don't, they don't know right or wrong.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:48.240
And you you need to give people both.
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.839
They need to know both where is the wrong way and where is the right way.
00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:02.319
And when we give people both of those things, those gifts of accountability, we give them the clarity of what success looks like and we give them the clarity of what failure looks like.
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:07.119
Then we get a gift as leaders of their best performance, right?
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:08.799
Because they can show up.
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:10.400
That is when they know, right?
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:23.759
They know where the dance floor is and they can improvise and give us their best performance because they know the boundaries in what, you know, they know the boundaries of the relationship and they can be whole and bring their whole self to the relationship.
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.200
And that's ultimately what we want out of our people when we're conscious-driven leaders.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:47.839
We want them to get to bring their whole self to work that matters to them and perform at a level that is beyond what we can imagine for them, because they're bringing their uniqueness, their energy, their excitement, and their person to this work that matters, not just overall and to us as leaders, but that matters to them.
00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:51.039
And that's like that's engagement, that's performance.
00:29:51.200 --> 00:30:07.039
That's when the magic happens and like true success becomes within reach because people who know they're cared about care about the company and they care about the organization and they will protect the organization from even little threats when they come along.
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:23.200
Like it's really that is when the true magic happens in leadership, is when a person feels safe, knows the expectations, knows how to exceed the expectations and how to um uh what's the opposite of exceed the expectations?
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:24.240
Fail.
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:25.519
Fail.
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:36.720
When someone knows what meeting expectations looks like, what exceeding expectations looks like, and what failing looks like, then they have freedom.
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:41.039
Like then they have freedom to to show you what they're really capable of.
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:41.599
Yeah.
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.799
No, I think that's a beautiful place for us to wrap today.
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:48.000
Um, thank you, Hannah, for having me on this adventure.
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:51.680
I want to thank our listeners for coming along with us.
00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:57.519
If you're enjoying this, please do uh subscribe on your favorite podcast app.
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:06.559
Um, and uh, we would love if you can share it with any friends, coworkers, family that you think could also benefit from being a part of the conversation.
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:07.440
Absolutely.
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:14.480
I mean, I think we I hope we can all agree that the world really needs more conscience-driven leadership and the world needs more trust.
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.000
And that's why I've been writing and creating these models.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:23.119
It's why Julie and I are having these conversations and decided to share them with all of you.
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:24.319
So thank you for listening.
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:29.359
Yes, please share comments or not comments, but reviews are super crazy helpful.
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:34.640
Um, so if you drop a review wherever you're watching this podcast or listening to it, that'd be super.
00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:41.200
Um, and please check out trust physics and conscience-driven leadership at conscience drivenleadership.com.
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:42.880
We would love to see you around.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:46.960
And thank you to Anna Miller, our amazing podcast producer, who just rocks.
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:50.000
And it's not me pretending to be a podcast producer.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:52.240
I swear her name and my name are just very similar.
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:53.359
And I think that's special.
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:54.079
Fabulous.
00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:55.440
Catch you next time.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.919
We tend to think that accountability is somehow synonymous with control.
00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:08.400
And that if we hold someone accountable, we're trying to control their behavior and they are totally different.
00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:12.320
I often talk about and have written in the past about the gift of accountability.
00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:23.359
Like we've got to think of accountability as a gift we give people that is us expressing our expectations so that they have the freedom to move inside those expectations.
00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:33.200
Hello and welcome everyone to Inside Conscience-Driven Leadership.
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:34.880
I'm your host, Hannah Miller.
00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:38.880
And I am Julie Huber, co-conspirator and cancer survivor.
00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:41.119
Congratulations again on that.
00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:42.560
That's always exciting.
00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:44.719
Yeah, I'm here for it.
00:00:45.200 --> 00:01:07.280
For those of you who are unfamiliar, conscience-driven leadership is a model for leadership that I authored that is focused on intuitive leadership and is a model for intuitive leaders who are driven by their conscience, not a drive for success or money or power, but driven to use their intuition to help build systems that help people.
00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:11.599
So you can learn more at conscience-drivenleadership.com.
00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:14.159
And we will talk about it more here on the podcast.
00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:16.719
We covered some of the basics in season one.
00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:17.359
Yes.
00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:21.760
And a really key aspect of CDL is trust physics.
00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:30.719
And that is a way to stay whole in your relationships by holding people accountable in a way that drives relationships forward and not down.
00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:31.680
Indeed.
00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:36.239
And accountability, accountability is honestly where this whole thing started.
00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:47.120
Because accountability is the problem I encounter most with my clients at every level of leadership of why don't people do what I want them to do?
00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:50.159
How do I make people do what I need them to do?
00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:54.640
And how do I do that without being a big meanie that everyone hates?
00:01:54.719 --> 00:01:55.280
Uh, right.
00:01:55.359 --> 00:02:01.760
Like I don't, and so because I tend to I work with conscience-driven leaders, they tend to really want, they care about people, they don't want to be assholes.
00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:05.599
So they're like, how do I do accountability without being an asshole?
00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:18.960
And I wound up developing what is the heart of the trust physics, which is the accountability sequence with clients actively who needed help doing this, because this is how I ran the circus.
00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:22.960
Like when I figured out how to hold people accountable, it was through these steps.
00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:28.719
And so codifying those steps and practicing them with clients eventually led to trust physics.
00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:29.840
Yeah, that's fantastic.
00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:37.039
And I'm curious if you can just bring it down to the more basic level before we kind of get into those steps of what is accountability.
00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:40.240
Yes, because words, words are so important.
00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:42.879
We're nerds about words and we like it that way.
00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:46.479
So let's start with like the common definition of accountability.
00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:53.919
And this is what when I start talking about accountability, people usually assume I mean, which is I take responsibility for my actions, right?
00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:57.680
Accountability as a thing, as a characteristic of me as a person.
00:02:57.840 --> 00:02:59.840
I am a person who holds myself accountable.
00:02:59.919 --> 00:03:12.159
You don't have to hold me accountable, which is problematic because then if someone needs to hold you accountable, which is a very reasonable thing that will happen to all of us, then that means you needed to be held accountable.
00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:16.479
And that must mean you are a terrible person who is unaccountable and therefore bad.
00:03:16.639 --> 00:03:18.080
Uh so I don't like that definition.
00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:19.599
So let's go a level deeper.
00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:26.639
If we're talking about leadership, we're talking about helping people align their behavior with expectations.
00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:32.639
We went deep into expectations last episode about how expectations are the building blocks of trust.
00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:34.400
It's how people know what we want from them.
00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:36.960
And so sometimes as a leader, we have to align people.
00:03:37.039 --> 00:03:38.879
And that's closer, certainly, right?
00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:41.120
Alignment is important in trust physics.
00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:49.280
Um, helping people's behavior and their align with your expectations, clearly the thing is that is holding someone accountable.
00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:56.960
But for trust physics, it's deeper than that because it trust physics doesn't wait for the rupture to happen.
00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:01.520
It doesn't wait until a relationship needs repair to engage with accountability.
00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:12.400
So in trust physics, the definition of accountability is the act of naming and addressing misalignment so people, relationships, and systems can stay whole.
00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:16.959
Because, right, we love wholeness, we like integrity, which is about wholeness in this model.
00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:32.399
And so accountability is the conversation we're always having to keep misalignment at bay and to address it as soon as it appears so that it doesn't lead to, oh no, the relationship is doomed.
00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:44.720
When I think about accountability in a work setting, especially, I think about how one way that people feel good about going to work and love their job is when they feel like their work matters.
00:04:44.879 --> 00:05:03.199
Uh, when they feel like they're really doing something, their work is contributing to something bigger than them, whether that is the relationships they have on the job or if it's the mission that they're serving at their organization, they really want to contribute to something bigger and not feel like they're just doing busy work that goes nowhere.
00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:07.120
So accountability is really the gift of knowing what the work takes.
00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:19.279
If people don't know what success looks like, they may feel like they're just feeling around in the dark without knowing if their efforts are going to be successful or if they're gonna disappoint you.
00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:27.600
And so I think we shy away sometimes from accountability, especially from the beginning, because we want to just say, oh, I trust you to do this.
00:05:27.680 --> 00:05:28.319
This is great.
00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:39.199
But if they don't know what the edges are, if they don't know what success looks like, they're gonna spend so much time just trying to find those boundaries that they're never actually gonna get to the work.
00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:40.000
Absolutely.
00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:42.000
And right, that's about agency.
00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:48.000
That's about, you know, it's it's we tend to think that accountability is somehow synonymous with control.
00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:52.480
And that if we hold someone accountable, we're trying to control their behavior and they are totally different.
00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:56.399
I often talk about and I've written in the past about the gift of accountability.
00:05:56.560 --> 00:06:12.720
Like we got to think of accountability as a gift we give people that is us expressing our expectations so that they have the freedom to move inside those expectations instead of finding out after the fact that they failed to meet our expectations.
00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:26.000
Because if accountability is about telling someone when they failed, not how to succeed and what success looks like, then it is, it's punitive, it's controlling, it's and it's no fun for either person.
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:30.560
And it and it absolutely ruptures the relationship and makes trust harder to rebuild.
00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:35.120
Whereas if accountability is something we practice when the stakes are zero, right?
00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:46.959
If accountability is a conversation that begins when there is no rupture to be had, and it starts with curiosity of like, hey, relationship, did you know the edges are here?
00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:48.959
Because I didn't want you to wander past them.
00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:51.199
I saw you headed toward the exit.
00:06:51.439 --> 00:06:53.360
Did you mean to be headed toward the exit?
00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:58.319
Because if you meant to be staying on the dance floor, then here's where the dance floor is.
00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:00.079
And then it's like, oh great, thank you.
00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:02.160
I didn't mean to be headed for the exit.
00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:08.399
Um, right, because people don't know, especially when a relationship is new, we have no idea what someone else is thinking.
00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:20.959
We make this mistake constantly where we we assume that because we think our thoughts are logical, that other people's thoughts are logical, and other people's thoughts are logical, but the logic is different in different brains.
00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:23.199
So accountability is that shared language.
00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:23.920
Amazing.
00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:28.319
Yeah, I think this shows up a lot for managers and how managers work.
00:07:28.399 --> 00:07:46.399
And I think it's particularly important for them to think about this because management is one of those things that is often thrust upon people as they grow in their career, where we don't get a lot of training for it, but we're expected to um get positive outcomes by being managers.
00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:50.240
And uh that also has an impact on the people you're managing.
00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:59.360
Um, and they are whole people who deserve a positive work environment and yet sometimes they're managed by people who never got the training to know what that looks like.
00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:10.800
And so I think this is a really key thing you can do if you are a manager and you want to make sure that you are setting yourself up for success and your employees up for success, because in the end it's the same thing.
00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:21.920
Really, what that looks like, what that doesn't look like is saying, okay, well, just do your job and I'll let you know if you're doing it wrong.
00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:28.399
You know, this and that often means the manager hasn't really thought through what success looks like or they're not sure.
00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:37.759
So they just kind of want to see it at play and then you know, tell someone that they're doing something wrong if it's not quite what you think it should be.
00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:47.200
And then it that that target's gonna move because if you don't know what it is, it's there are a lot more wrong options than pa than right options.
00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:49.120
Ain't that the truth?
00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:52.720
And you're touching on something that I see happen all the time.
00:08:52.799 --> 00:09:02.240
And I don't think it happens as much in conscience-driven cultures where there is conscience-driven leadership because conscience-driven leaders understand the people they're leading very well.
00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:08.639
And so they tend to promote people with an aptitude for management and with an aptitude for people and communication.
00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:19.840
But in most businesses, in most situations and cultures, especially in corporate environments, people get promoted as a reward for excellent performance.
00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:31.600
People get promoted not because they're they they get made manager, not because they are demonstrating any skill at management, but because they are an individual contributor who is kicking ass at their job.
00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:33.279
And so what do they get?
00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:38.559
More money, yes, but they also get the one thing they are best at taken away from them.
00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:48.240
And they are then given this whole new job that they have no idea how to do because an individual contributor is generally not somebody who loved the like group project.
00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.039
And management is a group project.
00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:57.200
Like if you're good at group projects, you should be in management because it's about making sure you communicate constantly to everyone.
00:09:57.360 --> 00:10:07.919
It's about understanding different people's skills and talents and struggles and conflict styles and navigating all of that to make sure the work gets done.
00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:11.440
And it requires caring about people.
00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:18.080
And a lot of times an individual contributor is like, please just let me do a really good job and leave me alone.
00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:23.120
And then they wind up in management, and all they know how to do is just let me do it.
00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:33.039
Or you're doing that wrong, do it how I do it, which most people can't do because really excellent contributors tend to be special in that way, which is great.
00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.440
I haven't we heard that all the time of like, why can't you just do it the way that I would?
00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.600
Just do it the right way.
00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:43.840
But that hasn't, if that hasn't been communicated, we all have different brains.
00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:48.320
And if they don't know what the target is, yeah, they're gonna be doing a lot of things that you wouldn't do.
00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:49.039
Absolutely.
00:10:49.120 --> 00:11:05.840
And I use I use the Clifton Strengths Assessment for this all the time because it's a really great shorthand for understanding the different thoughts, feelings, and the different patterns of thought, feeling, and behavior that drive people and motivate people and that they operate in because we are all different, right?
00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:14.000
Like, and I love it because this is just an aside on strengths and why it's great, is because I grew up I grew up in a circus and a circus is a strength-based organization, right?
00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.600
An acrobat is somebody who can do backflips and tumble around.
00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:20.799
That requires a certain body type and size, right?
00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:25.440
Like acrobats have short torsos, long limbs, and they're not very tall, typically.
00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:28.000
That is how they do all the bouncy flippy stuff.
00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:30.159
I would make a really crappy acrobat.
00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:32.320
I would crack my head open because I am not turning over.
00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:36.559
I'm long in the torso, on the tall side, you know, broad in the bone.
00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:38.879
It's just not what I'm wired for.
00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:42.720
Um, but I have other talents that are very useful, right?
00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:46.799
Like I like to, I like to be in the spotlight, I like to talk to people.
00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:48.559
These are the kinds of jobs that I'm good at.
00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:58.000
So you can you can identify who belongs in what job by looking at them in many cases in the circus, or by seeing what they perform, like juggling is a skill.
00:11:58.080 --> 00:11:59.600
If you can juggle or you can't.
00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:01.759
Um, if you can juggle, you can juggle better.
00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:03.440
We can juggle knives and fire.
00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:08.080
We can, we can amplify a skill, but we can't start from scratch unless you're five.
00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.519
We assume people work like us because we don't have another mental model.
00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:13.600
We don't know what it's like to be in someone else's brain.
00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:20.639
And so if we have a language that identifies someone's talent, we can then we can go, oh, your brain works like that.
00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:21.279
Cool.
00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:22.639
My brain works like this.
00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:28.399
Here's the places we should overlap, here's the places we should, we should not overlap and we should work independently.
00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:30.240
Um, so it's a helpful tool.
00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:30.879
That's great.
00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:32.080
I think that makes a lot of sense.
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:39.039
And I think it's actually a good segue to think about the kind of key components of an accountability conversation that will really work.
00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:48.639
Uh, because it's it's often easy to name what isn't working, but really finding those tools so that a manager can say, I don't, I want to care about people.
00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:52.399
I want to set them up for success, but where do I start?
00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.440
I think this is a good place to start and a good place to really think.
00:12:55.600 --> 00:13:04.639
So uh we can kind of break this down, but uh I just want to name them first, is really it takes presence, vulnerability, and repair.
00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:07.039
So let's start on the presence side.
00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:10.720
It's the choice to actively be there in the conversation.
00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:17.919
And this is something that we as a society isn't as practiced in as perhaps we used to be.
00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:32.240
Uh, we are noses in our phones, uh, we are easily distracted, our attention spans are shorter because of kind of the the short form videos we're watching and the kind of quick entertainment that we see in our society.
00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:40.480
But it's one reason that when you can be very present and when you are really in a conversation, that really matters.
00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:46.000
Uh so you're not thinking about what you're gonna say next while they're talking.
00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:51.039
Um you're not kind of engrossed in your own thoughts and interpretations of what they're saying.
00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:54.399
You're not making up the story behind what they're saying.
00:13:54.639 --> 00:14:00.080
You're committed to listening and to keep working through a hard conversation.
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:07.519
So, you know, it's very easy for your brain just to go wild of, oh, they said this, I think this is why they said it, and this and this and this.
00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:11.759
And now you're building up this story that they're not even party to.
00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:13.279
Um They have no idea, yeah.
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:13.679
Yeah.
00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:23.679
But if you're present and you're listening and you're asking the questions and inviting them into your brain, uh, then that's a really key aspect of having accountability conversation.
00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:26.879
Do you have examples of that or or other things you'd add to that, Hannah?
00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:31.440
I mean, I think I would tie it to the first step in the accountability sequence, which is curiosity.
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:40.159
And I think, you know, curiosity is the touchstone that I think we have to return to constantly when we're trying to do accountability conversations, because you're right.
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:44.879
As soon as there's a story in my head about what's happening, I'm not curious anymore.
00:14:45.039 --> 00:14:51.120
I'm curious, maybe I'm curious about the story in my head, but I'm not curious about the person and their experience and what's going on.
00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:56.480
I think culturally we're at a moment where curiosity is really not encouraged.
00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:17.519
And, you know, I think we're, I think in a lot of different turns, whether that it's, you know, in the media or in politics or whatever, we're really encouraged to put people into boxes and to label them and to decide on their behalf who they are and what's going on and why they're behaving the way they are.
00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:22.159
And we don't know, we never know why someone is behaving the the way they are.
00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:26.960
And that we have another saying in leadership that gets passed around a lot: assume positive intent.
00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:33.440
And assume positive isn't intent is a nice idea, but it's still an assumption.
00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:34.240
Yeah.
00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:40.000
And curiosity is what gets you past an assumption and to the reality.
00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:44.240
And the reality could be that this is somebody who isn't going to tell you the truth.
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:45.759
That's that's an option.
00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:49.679
But curiosity gets you to, keeps you in the present.
00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:53.440
It keeps you in the moment because you're wondering what's going on with them.
00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:56.480
And and I think that like that just connects everything.
00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:02.320
That makes you a human in a room with another human or a human in a Zoom or on a phone call with another human.
00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:04.000
And that's really necessary.
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:13.759
You can't do accountability in a way that is about repair and about healing relationships and about correcting misalignment if you're making assumptions.
00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:18.080
Yeah, I want to go back to that phrase of uh assuming good intent.
00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:20.720
I think that really protects the status quo.
00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:27.759
It puts um manipulative boundaries around what you're allowed to question and what you're not.
00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:34.960
Uh and it can put a hold on being present and asking honest and having honest conversation.
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:37.279
Uh so I'm I'm glad you brought that out.
00:16:37.360 --> 00:16:40.480
And it sounds like we have similar thoughts around it.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.080
Yeah, I really enjoyed your face when I said that phrase.
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:45.519
You were like, uh-uh.
00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:46.559
I don't think so.
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:54.879
Because I feel like that's something that we have talked about at SARSUF in the past when we've worked together, is like, you know, it and it's great, right?
00:16:54.960 --> 00:17:02.559
Like I have a kind of counter to that, this intrus physics, and that's something I talk about all the time, which I call mustard, right?
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:09.200
Which is don't because mustard is a great flavor, but too much of it and it ruins everything, right?
00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:13.680
Like mustard is the only thing you can taste when mustard is involved most of the time.
00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:29.119
And so the this, like one of a great example I have from a client is somebody who is a manager, mid-level manager, high performer, got promoted, did not know how to supervise other people, and was frustrated as hell that she's like, why am I a babysitter?
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:31.680
I don't want to babysit these people, right?
00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:33.599
Like, why do I have to tell them how to do their jobs?
00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:34.880
I'm like, because you're their manager.
00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:42.480
It's you're not your job to tell them how to do their job, but it's your job to tell them what doing their job means and then make sure they're doing that.
00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:44.799
Like it is your job to hold them accountable.
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:47.200
But for her, nobody had ever had to hold her accountable.
00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:50.400
She was a high performer, she was really driven, she understood her job.
00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:56.319
This was not, but man, she had a story about these people and why they were not doing their job.
00:17:56.400 --> 00:18:01.759
They didn't care, they were lazy, they, you know, like it was all there was this whole story.
00:18:01.839 --> 00:18:03.920
And I was like, that is just all mustard.
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:11.279
Like, we gotta, we gotta take the mustard out of the situation and go like, go be curious, be like, do you fully understand the work?
00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:17.359
If you do understand the work and you're not doing it, then what, you know, what's the close supervision?
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:28.240
You you can't have to do accountability closely in a way where you're checking all the time that they're doing what they're saying they're so they're supposed to do and what they've said they'll do, right?
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:29.759
Like accountability is not always fun.
00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:37.759
There are people who don't want to be held accountable, and a lot of cultural training has gone into teaching people how to dodge accountability.
00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.319
And we talked about this a little bit on our last episode.
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:49.279
We use there's the ways we use language to dodge accountability, there's way we gaslight other people into saying, well, I didn't know or it wasn't clear or whatever.
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:56.640
And so accountability is the structure that keeps people doing the thing that you've agreed on.
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:03.440
And if they continue to not do the thing you've agreed on, that leads to escorting them off of the dance floor.
00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:14.880
You know, when you talk about a high performer and how they aren't someone that often has to be held accountable, uh, I think they often are, but they just don't see it that way.
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:29.680
Because I think it's common for a high performer that loves to work and to do things and loves to do it well, maybe centers perfectionism in a way that um can be difficult.
00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:31.119
I mean, or not.
00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:36.480
You know, there's there's just a lot of different traits that go with being kind of a high performer as we think about it too.
00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:41.279
And they can start going down a track that isn't actually helpful.
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:46.160
Maybe they have a manager that knows that they're a high performer, so they need less of a touch.
00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:49.920
And so they start really going at something.
00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.319
And it turns out that's not what was needed.
00:19:52.480 --> 00:19:59.279
Or it turns out that that was not the right approach, but they're already going down the road and they are focused on it.
00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:03.599
That can be a difficult accountability conversation, but it's an important one for them too.
00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:04.559
Absolutely.
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:11.200
I actually, I actually did something, I I didn't do it recently, but it came to it came to a head recently.
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:17.920
I have a really I hope she's okay with me using this story on the podcast, but I have this really amazing virtual assistant.
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.119
And she is so dedicated and so driven.
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:28.160
And when there is a deadline, she's gonna work, she's gonna work until it gets done so that it's done on time.
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:39.920
And a few times, we've been working together for years, a few times in the past, she's gone over budget in order in terms of hours, in order to hit a deadline in time.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:43.359
And that's happened, you know, just a couple of times over the years.
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:44.799
They weren't close together.
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.839
And I had needed the deadline more than I needed the money to pay her.
00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:52.480
And so I just paid her and I didn't say anything.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:57.839
And I thought to myself at the time, I totally like in hindsight, I'm like, dummy, Hannah, why didn't you do the thing?
00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:01.519
Because at the time I was like, I should really tell her, like, tell me before you go over.
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:03.200
Like, it's not a hard conversation.
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:14.880
Hey, I appreciate your dedication, but I need to know how you know I budgeted for this and if it's gonna cost more, I need the chance to to weigh in on that.
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:26.880
So I've recently referred her to several of my clients who are loving her and she's incredible and she really drives, you know, she she gets the thing done even when it takes a lot of hours, which is admirable and wonderful.
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:30.960
But she did this with a client who I'm managing the invoices.
00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:32.160
And so she sent me a news.
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:35.519
She's like, by the way, I went over on hours to hit the deadline.
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:36.799
Here's my new invoice.
00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:39.680
And I had to say, I was like, ah, dummy, Hannah.
00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:42.640
Like, I should have said something to you about this years ago.
00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:48.000
But like, you should really, you need to tell the client you're gonna go over before you go over.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:48.559
Like, right?
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:51.200
Like, that's just and she felt so bad about it.
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:54.000
I felt bad for her because I'm like, I caused this.
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:57.200
This is me, this is a me fault moment, right?
00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.759
Like, bad Hannah, which leads it back to.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:09.359
Vulnerability, like I'm the one responsible here because I let her develop a habit I knew would harm her in future professional relationships.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:10.799
And I said nothing.
00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:12.319
It's my fault that this happened.
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:14.160
And the client is luckily fine with it.
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.359
And they were thrilled to meet the deadline and it's all okay.
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:22.079
But like she and I wound up having this long conversation about like, oh no, do I feel bad?
00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:23.440
Should I not charge for the hours?
00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:28.400
Like all these things where she was worried about her own integrity in this moment.
00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:36.000
And I, you know, like, and it was important that I take responsibility for this because I'm really the one who's at fault in this situation.
00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:37.680
I mean, I appreciate you sharing that.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:42.240
And, you know, I think that does take mean you have to be present with your high performers too.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:45.359
I think it's easier to be a little more shut off because you know they're gonna do well.
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:48.640
So that kind of goes uh into the presence you're talking about.
00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:54.319
But you mentioned vulnerability, which is really the next key component of an accountability conversation.
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:56.319
So why don't we jump into that?
00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:10.319
Of vulnerability is really the willingness to name your discomfort and acknowledge your role, just as you acknowledged your role in uh her not knowing that going over on hours is something that has to be addressed before it happens.
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.200
Um, it's okay to admit that this is hard.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:15.279
It's okay to be human to your point.
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:17.680
It's okay to say, man, this is really tough.
00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:21.759
And, you know, but I think we're gonna get through it together because we always do.
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:28.160
Um, and you know, in many ways, it gives the other person permission for it to be uncomfortable too, which is really important.
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:30.079
Right, because they can't read your mind.
00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:36.960
And if you're in a position of authority, they assume that you're fine and this is easy for you, or you're upset with it.
00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:43.039
Like they're gonna make a bunch of assumptions because especially nobody likes to be told they've done something wrong.
00:23:43.279 --> 00:23:46.960
And so it's really important, you know, like it's it's hard.
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:53.759
Every time I have a conversation uh that requires holding somebody accountable, it's uh it's painful, it's uncomfortable.
00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:59.279
Like I was, you know, when I had to talk to my assistant, I was like, oh crap, I feel I feel bad about this.
00:23:59.359 --> 00:23:59.839
I don't want to.
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:06.000
I've I felt so bad I didn't do it the other times, which is right, like the which is the no the big no-no.
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:08.480
I'm like, I literally wrote a book on accountability.
00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:12.000
And here is an example of me failing right here in the present moment.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:12.880
Awesome.
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:23.759
Um, but you reminding them that you're a human so that they can be a human and you can be two humans repairing a relationship, that's that's what matters way more.
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:33.680
You know, there's this the accountability sequence in the book will walk you through the five conversations that need to happen to make accountability work.
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:35.920
And you can do them perfectly.
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:41.119
But if you don't, if you're not a human in them, then you haven't done them perfectly.
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:42.799
And you could do them real wrong.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:48.880
And if you've got presence, vulnerability and repair strong on them on the plate, you are going to be just fine, right?
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:52.480
Because presence vulnerability repair is what keeps mustard off the plate.
00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:53.119
Yeah.
00:24:53.359 --> 00:25:00.880
And I think this is really valuable in that scenario we talked about of a manager that isn't really defining what success is.
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:08.559
Uh, they need to be a person with that employee so that the employee can say, I don't quite know what the goal here is.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:09.440
Can we talk about it?
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:14.480
And it's possible the manager doesn't know and doesn't have the information they need to know what it is.
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:17.200
That takes vulnerability to say, you know what?
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:18.720
I don't know that yet.
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.319
So can we talk through it?
00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:22.240
What does it look like on the ground?
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:25.359
What uh do we really want to do with this?
00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:26.720
Let's set these together.
00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:28.640
Or I admit I don't know.
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:32.799
And the first time we do it, it may not be perfect, but let's take joint ownership of that.
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.240
This is not you doing something wrong, this is us figuring this out.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.839
And I think that takes the vulnerability and the presence into being people.
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.880
So we've talked about presence, we've talked about vulnerability.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:44.400
So you mentioned repair.
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:52.000
So repair is really owning when you get it wrong, naming it, correcting it, keep continuing to go, and it keeps those relationships whole.
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:53.759
And I those are kind of the three.
00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:58.079
And I think together, they're really powerful in any scenario you find yourself in.
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:00.960
And I think they all really help you be really authentic.
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:01.440
Yeah.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:10.079
Well, and repair is ultimately being willing to engage in accountability yourself and recognizing that you that when you make a mistake, right?
00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:17.839
Like and owning your part in it and taking responsibility because it's your job as a leader to make the relationship repair.
00:26:17.920 --> 00:26:27.359
It's their choice whether they want to stay in a relationship that's whole, but it's your job to make sure the conditions for repair exist and you will make mistakes.
00:26:27.519 --> 00:26:28.799
We will all do it.
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:36.720
Um, and owning when you do and being willing to do the thing, you know, it well could have been that I could have paid my assistant instead of my client.
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:44.079
If my client hadn't had it in the budget, then I absolutely would have eaten that because that's my responsibility, not hers.
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:47.519
I'm the and I know that I created that problem.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:54.240
So that's how I, that's an example of how I could repair this situation if it had been necessary.
00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:58.240
Luckily, we've got good relationships all around, and it was in the budget this time.
00:26:58.400 --> 00:26:59.599
It's not in the budget next time.
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:00.640
Everybody knows that now.
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.480
We are clear and crystal and great.
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:02.960
Yeah.
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:04.640
No, that's fantastic.
00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:10.559
Um, so it sounds like clarity and safety are really key in these things.
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:17.599
Being really clear with each other and having a safe environment to have important, maybe difficult conversations.
00:27:17.759 --> 00:27:21.599
So, how does accountability give you this clarity, this safety?
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:24.000
Well, I think the clarity creates the safety.
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:27.920
And accountability is is a practice of clarity, right?
00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:39.759
Like when when we give the gift of accountability, we're giving people clarity around what's expected, what matters, what success looks like, and what happens if misalignment continues.
00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:52.400
And this is the hardest part because once you've once you've named a misalignment a couple times with someone, it's really important that you tell them, hey, if this continues, that's gonna lead to the end of our relationship.
00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:55.839
I need that to not be a surprise for you if it happens.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:00.640
I we are not to that point yet, but we are at the corner where that becomes in view.
00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:08.640
And it's in view for me, so I need to make sure it's in view for you because again, we want to give people agency, not control them.
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:18.720
And so giving them the information, giving them clarity gives them the option to make the choice that's right for them, which is what creates psychological safety.
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:21.039
And that's the precursor for trust.
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:30.319
You can get so busy trying to figure out what's wanted that focus is taken away from why it's being done and what the intended outcome is.
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:38.079
So if you ha don't have that clarity, they are never going to be able to hit it because they're so busy just trying to find the bullseye.
00:28:38.400 --> 00:28:44.160
Either they're trying to figure out where the bullseye is, or they're trying to figure out how not to, you know, fire into the crowd.
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:46.319
Like they don't, they don't know right or wrong.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:48.240
And you you need to give people both.
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:51.839
They need to know both where is the wrong way and where is the right way.
00:28:52.000 --> 00:29:02.319
And when we give people both of those things, those gifts of accountability, we give them the clarity of what success looks like and we give them the clarity of what failure looks like.
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:07.119
Then we get a gift as leaders of their best performance, right?
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:08.799
Because they can show up.
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:10.400
That is when they know, right?
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:23.759
They know where the dance floor is and they can improvise and give us their best performance because they know the boundaries in what, you know, they know the boundaries of the relationship and they can be whole and bring their whole self to the relationship.
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.200
And that's ultimately what we want out of our people when we're conscious-driven leaders.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:47.839
We want them to get to bring their whole self to work that matters to them and perform at a level that is beyond what we can imagine for them, because they're bringing their uniqueness, their energy, their excitement, and their person to this work that matters, not just overall and to us as leaders, but that matters to them.
00:29:48.079 --> 00:29:51.039
And that's like that's engagement, that's performance.
00:29:51.200 --> 00:30:07.039
That's when the magic happens and like true success becomes within reach because people who know they're cared about care about the company and they care about the organization and they will protect the organization from even little threats when they come along.
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:23.200
Like it's really that is when the true magic happens in leadership, is when a person feels safe, knows the expectations, knows how to exceed the expectations and how to um uh what's the opposite of exceed the expectations?
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:24.240
Fail.
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:25.519
Fail.
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:36.720
When someone knows what meeting expectations looks like, what exceeding expectations looks like, and what failing looks like, then they have freedom.
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:41.039
Like then they have freedom to to show you what they're really capable of.
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:41.599
Yeah.
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.799
No, I think that's a beautiful place for us to wrap today.
00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:48.000
Um, thank you, Hannah, for having me on this adventure.
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:51.680
I want to thank our listeners for coming along with us.
00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:57.519
If you're enjoying this, please do uh subscribe on your favorite podcast app.
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:06.559
Um, and uh, we would love if you can share it with any friends, coworkers, family that you think could also benefit from being a part of the conversation.
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:07.440
Absolutely.
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:14.480
I mean, I think we I hope we can all agree that the world really needs more conscience-driven leadership and the world needs more trust.
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.000
And that's why I've been writing and creating these models.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:23.119
It's why Julie and I are having these conversations and decided to share them with all of you.
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:24.319
So thank you for listening.
00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:29.359
Yes, please share comments or not comments, but reviews are super crazy helpful.
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:34.640
Um, so if you drop a review wherever you're watching this podcast or listening to it, that'd be super.
00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:41.200
Um, and please check out trust physics and conscience-driven leadership at conscience drivenleadership.com.
00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:42.880
We would love to see you around.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:46.960
And thank you to Anna Miller, our amazing podcast producer, who just rocks.
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:50.000
And it's not me pretending to be a podcast producer.
00:31:50.079 --> 00:31:52.240
I swear her name and my name are just very similar.
00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:53.359
And I think that's special.
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:54.079
Fabulous.
00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:55.440
Catch you next time.
