WEBVTT
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An unspoken expectation is a relational landmine, right?
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If you want a relationship to fail, don't tell them what you expect from them, because then they will mess up and you will be angry at them.
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Guaranteed, every time.
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Welcome everyone to Inside Conscience Driven Leadership.
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I'm your host, Hannah Miller, here with Julie Uber, co-conspirator and bird enthusiast.
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Ooh, yay, birds.
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Fellow bird enthusiast over here.
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Yeah, you get to see some really cool birds, don't you?
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We do.
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Spain has totally different birds.
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I saw, I saw a hoopo in Catalonia.
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And I don't know if you know of a hoopo, but I have, I have this bird, this book called The Conference of the Birds that's an ancient, um, I think it's a Sufi poem.
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Um, and the hoopo is kind of the leader of the birds in it.
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And I, it was totally like, I don't have like a lifelist typically, but I was like, I would really like to see a hoopo, and I never thought I would.
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And they're just they're cool.
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They got a big mohawk thing.
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I love seeing the sandhill cranes, which I know you can see in a lot of different places in the States, but just getting to see them when they wake up in the morning and they're just making so much noise.
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It's it's unbelievable.
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I grew up with sandhill cranes.
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They live in Florida year-round.
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Like you have like a family that lives in your yard.
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Anyway, we're not here.
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This isn't a birding podcast.
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You might be surprised to learn.
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We're actually here to talk about leadership, uh, conscience-driven leadership specifically.
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Um, so conscience-driven leadership is a framework that I created that's for leaders who are driven by their conscience and not by a motive for profit or success or something else.
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They're driven by their conscience to lead on behalf of the people that they lead.
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And uh, it describes the kind of leader that I most love to work with and most often work with.
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And Julie is certainly one of those folks.
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I appreciate that.
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I feel like it's a compliment because I'm really excited for everything that CDL brings forward.
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And I'm grateful that it's described and something we can talk about now because we need the language in order to do that.
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Um, and a key part of CDL is uh trust physics.
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And that is the theme of this season.
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Trust physics is a way to stay whole in your relationships by holding people accountable in ways that drive relationships forward and doesn't close them down.
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Thank you so much for that lovely introduction, Julie.
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Today we're going to be discussing two really critical pieces of trust physics, which is boundaries and expectations, right?
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So we talked in the first episode about integrity and how integrity is from the Latin root of integer, which means whole or complete.
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And expectations and bound boundaries are ultimately the definition of how we stay whole, right?
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That in order for something to be entire, it has boundaries.
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And so we're going to be diving into what boundaries mean for a conscience-driven leader and what they mean in the context of trust physics.
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We're also going to be talking about expectations, which are really critical for building trust.
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So boundaries define what wholeness looks like for us.
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And expectations is about how we communicate those boundaries to others.
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I feel like this is a hard one that a lot of people recognize that they have trouble holding their boundaries.
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And I know for me, it's just this desire to do all the things.
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Like in undergrad, I did majors in anthropology and English with a minor in biology, which is silly.
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I also almost minored in like art history and French just because I want to do all the things.
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And so I'm often the one that is um stomping on my own boundaries and my own needs, I feel like.
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But I they're also really important to practice because they're important in relationships and being able to know yourself well enough to communicate those boundaries, to know them and to communicate them before they're a problem uh can be really important to relationships personally and professionally.
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Absolutely, because a relationship has boundaries too, right?
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And so it's it's really, we talk about boundaries as this thing we must defend.
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And I think it's maybe more something that we need to protect, right?
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Like we're protecting ourselves by protecting our boundaries.
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And I agree with you.
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I think a lot of us don't even know what they are, right?
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Like I think maybe we recognize sometimes when they get trumpled on, but it depends on how used to them being crossed and stomped on that we are, whether we realize the problem as it's happening.
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No, absolutely.
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It's it's protective of you, I think is actually protective of the other person too, because when you take the time to know what your boundaries are and why they're important, then you get to make something clear that otherwise people aren't going to know why they've upset you.
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They don't know why they've damaged the relationship if you have not commuted, communicated your boundaries with them.
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Absolutely.
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And someone who wants to be whole in relationship with you and who wants you to be whole in relationship with them wants the relationship to have that integrity, doesn't want to cross your boundaries.
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They want to know what they are.
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But first we have to understand really what they are, because I think we talk about, you know, and we're gonna, it's gonna be a theme of this podcast probably forever because we like to define words.
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And words are really important because most of the words when we talk about leadership are words that have been defined or the definition has been watered down over a really long time.
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I don't know, what are the like first things that come to mind for you, Julie, when you think about a boundary?
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It makes me think about finding the edges.
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This is why you're this is why you're a conscience-driven leader, is because that's exactly how we think of them in conscience-driven leadership.
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I think often in colloquial English, we think of boundaries as like a preference I have.
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Like that's my boundary, don't cross it, or it's a request or some kind of rule that you have to follow.
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But I am, we're completely on the same page of this.
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A boundary is the, it's the edge, right?
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So boundary is ultimately the condition under which you can remain whole in the situation, in the relationship, et cetera, in the system, right?
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So boundaries are a set of conditions that if they are not met, your wholeness is damaged.
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And so we recognize boundaries often when they are crossed or when they are broken, because that costs us something deep and important inside of us when a boundary is crossed.
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It's not just I, well, I wish you'd behave this way or or that.
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It's I can't be whole in this relationship if that behavior continues or if that's how this real this relationship is going to be.
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Like that.
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And so the question of trust physics is am I willing to be in relationships where I'm not whole?
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It makes me think about um not coming at it from a scarcity mindset to really be thinking about it of from that wholeness that you're talking about.
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Because I think where we get into trouble is when we think about boundaries as limitations.
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Uh I am limited because I have boundaries, or I am limiting what other people can do because of my boundaries.
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Uh, and I think that when we think about it from that scarcity approach, then they're always going to be a little bit more of a scary topic and one that we don't feel good about.
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I think that a lot of conscience-driven leaders, we feel like we shouldn't have boundaries because we're here in support of other people.
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And so it's maybe selfish to have a boundary and say, no, that's not.
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And it's ultimately though, nothing in trust physics is about telling someone how they can or can't behave.
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Trust physics is about giving people the information they need to make a choice based on reality.
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And so knowing your boundaries and expressing your boundaries as expectations isn't telling someone you can't do this.
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It's telling someone, if you do this, that causes me harm.
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And that might change the nature of our relationship if you choose to continue to do that.
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It's always up to the other person to make the choice.
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And it's up to us to make the choice about whether we want to be in relationship with somebody who knows our boundaries and our expectations and consistently crosses them or disregards them.
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Yeah.
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And I think oftentimes our boundaries are the opposite side of a positive coin.
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Like we there's something good that we value or that we do, but in order to do that well, that boundary is tied to it.
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I I mean, I think an example from my life is I feel uh in professional settings, I think it really matters to show up and to be present.
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Uh, and it's really important when I'm running a statewide organization because there are parts of the state that get visited less.
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It is just as easy for me to get to a rural part of Arizona as it is for me to get to the state capitol.
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But people are more likely to go to the state capitol.
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And that that worries me.
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I want to be in rural spaces, I want to meet people, I want to hear about their community because that's how we serve well, is we do things with community.
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But that means showing up, that means taking the drive.
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That means even if I have to drive longer than the meeting will take, it could be worth it.
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And I want to be there with people.
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So I think that's a positive, but I have a boundary of if I go to an event and I don't feel like I am doing anything or meeting new people or am being frankly put to work, then I can leave.
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And that took a long time for me to realize that that's a boundary, that if something isn't serving me, I don't have to continue to uh really put forward being present and being there.
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I really can just give myself a break.
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I think that's a really great example.
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I I have a similar one in that I one of my boundaries is I don't, I'm not interested in relationships where I'm only the audience, right?
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If somebody wants me around because I'm gonna go, oh yeah, oh, mm-hmm, oh yeah.
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And they're not gonna ask any questions about me or they're not gonna express any genuine interest in me as a person, um, I don't need to be in that relationship.
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And it's been painful to insist on that at times, right?
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Like I think because a lot of us, you know, a lot of us have these expectations of ourselves that once we have done something, like once we've driven to the meeting, we stay, right?
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Like that's what a good person does, or we have these moral judgments.
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This is a topic I'm gonna be writing about because I have am developing like this understanding about how our culture has conflated moral judgment with accountability.
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If you think you're not being accountable to some expectation that isn't named, you or have somehow failed as a human, but it's not a fully baked thought yet.
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But um, yeah, right.
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And so that that boundary, I hadn't thought of it in the reverse term, the way you framed it.
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That boundary for me comes from really loving to engage with people.
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I want a two-way connection and I'm happy to give attention to someone.
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It's not that I need to be the center of attention all the time.
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It's that I need there to be an exchange because I am energized by the exchange between people.
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And if somebody has no room in them for an exchange, that's I that's time I could be spending doing something more fun and more important in the world.
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And so that's just that's just how I that's just how I roll.
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And there are totally people who think that I am a rude asshole because of it.
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And that is the cost we are really afraid of, right?
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Like, what is somebody gonna think of me?
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What are they gonna think when you drove all the way and then you left halfway through, Julie?
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Yeah.
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And it's a good reminder that different people are going to play different roles in your life.
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And that's a lesson I had to learn too.
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That even though I love people and I love getting to know people and love developing relationships, um, different people are gonna play a different part in that.
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And if we're not going to, you know, hang out every weekend or have a really personal relationship, there's still a way to be mindful about your boundaries and have them in your life, but be intentional about what role they're playing.
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Right.
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And I think, I think for in trust physics, we want boundaries to define our participation in the work, in the relationship, in life.
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Like boundaries tell us where our participation is most important and most necessary.
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And it gives us permission to withdraw our participation from the places where our val our greatest value isn't being utilized.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I think that if you can't share your boundaries, that's uh potentially a red flag, right?
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That's something, especially in personal relationships, to pay attention to.
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If you feel uncomfortable sharing a boundary, is it because you've learned in that type of relationship that it's dangerous?
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Is it because of that relationship and um the safety you feel in it?
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I think it's important to explore that and to kind of think about why those boundaries are not something you can talk about.
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Absolutely, because if you're ultimately, if we let our boundaries be stomped on or broken, that's a form of self-betrayal, right?
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Like we are betraying our wholeness to stay in relationship.
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And if we aren't whole, the relationship isn't whole.
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The entire if we don't have that integrity, the relationship doesn't have that integrity.
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And so are we doing it out of a misguided sense of trying to protect the other person?
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Because we have a whole law about that.
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We will talk about how niceness is a form of non-consent.
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Or are we in a relationship with a person or a situ an institution or a system that requires us to not be whole because they're not whole in a different way?
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And they're trying to get us to fill in something that's really theirs to own.
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So boundaries are it's important that we know them.
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It's export important that we communicate them because that is how integrity happens.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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Why do you think they're so hard for conscience-driven leaders?
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I think we've touched on this, but like what what's the struggle to prioritize ourselves?
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I think it's because we care a lot about systems change.
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And we know that that work never ends.
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And we are willing to make personal sacrifices for the good of the group.
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And sometimes that matters and sometimes that's important, but it doesn't mean we have to do it all the time.
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And we have to fake we have to find those edges.
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We have to know uh what is truly going to make a difference in this community, in this scenario, and in our society.
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And where are we just letting ourselves get stomped on because we are used to self-sacrifice as a tool in our tool belt.
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And I think you can you can have, I think you can do self-sacrifice without crossing your boundaries, right?
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Like well, when I was running the circus, we put in a holiday show every year.
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And we never went dark.
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Like that was one of our things.
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We were a 365-day operation, and so we didn't have a single day to rehearse that we weren't also doing a show, including dress rehearsals.
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And so for like eight weeks before the show went in, it was long days.
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And it was every day because since we're 365 days a year, that means every day you have a different cast.
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So you have to practice every day's show.
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You have to practice over and over.
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People have to learn multiple parts because there needs to be flexibility in who rides which horse in which act at what time, based on who's there that day.
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And that's it's predictable to a certain degree and it's unpredictable to a huge degree.
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So there weren't other people who knew what I knew about the show.
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There weren't other people who understood exactly how the act was supposed to be timed, exactly what the choreography was like, who knew how to ride horses.
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I had an incredible assistant and she took the actors, thank goodness, because directing actors is really hard for me, but she can't ride horses.
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And so sometimes the trouble somebody's having is a technical problem.
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And I once had to get on a horse and show somebody the movement that I meant because I couldn't explain it with words.
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But so, I mean, those were 16-hour days for two months of the year.
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Um, and you know, I took the time when the show was happening, I would take a break and go take myself to dinner and read a book.
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And but then I was there until four in the morning often.
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And so huge amount of self-sacrifice, but not a not any kind of violation of my boundaries.
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I was sacrificing my sleep.
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I was sacrificing time with my partner, which we had we had agreed on before, right?
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Like we knew the ex we set expectations, we knew the boundaries.
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For him, that was okay as long as it was within this time frame and we planned time that we got back afterward.
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But there was no cost to me as a person.
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My integrity was maintained, even though I was sacrificing a lot from an external perspective.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
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You had the conversation beforehand so that your relationships could stay whole and you knew what you needed, which was maybe a little bit of reading time, a little bit of quiet time.
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Um, so I do think that that takes knowing yourself and being comfortable in your relationships.
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I think that's a process.
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It really is.
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It's totally the process.
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It's the it's the topic of our season three of the podcast.
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I think the theme of season three is the self-work it takes to do the stuff we're talking about this season around the practical application of trust physics.
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So I think this is a good transition to expectations because naming our boundaries and communicating our boundaries is ultimately the job of expectations, right?
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Expectations tell people how to stay in relationship with us.
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They tell people where our participation will stop and what what you know what's behavi what, you know, what behaviors we, you know, we will tolerate.
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Um, and if we deprive someone of our expectations, if we don't share our boundaries and the expectations that emerge from them, we're setting them up to fail.
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An unspoken expectation is a relational landmine, right?
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If you want a relationship to fail, don't tell them what you expect from them, because then they will mess up and you will be angry at them, guaranteed, every time.
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Yeah, I think it's important to be really thoughtful about how those are communicated and really upfront is best, but also as soon as they're violated.
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I I think oftentimes we sit on something and think about it, or we stew, or we try want time to kind of take it apart, which is understandable.
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People kind of need different thinking time to really decide how to move forward.
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But bringing them up before is ideal, but it's not always possible.
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Sometimes you're like, ooh, look, a boundary.
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:19.119
I found it because someone crossed it.
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:21.119
That's an expectation I need to set.
00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:22.000
Right.
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.480
But when that happens, it doesn't help to just make a mental note of it.
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.039
Some you you do have to talk to about it of like, actually that kind of sucked.
00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:36.480
But I've I mean, we haven't talked about this, so maybe we should talk about that so it doesn't have to suck.
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:37.680
Absolutely.
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:46.000
And I think, you know, and and I think it's really important, it's guaranteed you cannot name every boundary and expectation up front because there's a lot of them.
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:50.000
And it's like, so don't don't give yourself that that bar to clear.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:55.119
And if you fail to clear it, then you just have to live with the consequences, which is another thing I think we all do.
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:57.440
Like, oh, well, I should have anticipated it and I didn't.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:58.559
So therefore I suffer.
00:19:58.720 --> 00:19:59.599
That's my punishment.
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.200
You can communicate it in the moment, even if you are someone who needs time to think.
00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:05.680
You can be like, ooh, that didn't feel good.
00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.480
I need to unpack that a little bit and we're okay.
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:11.359
But like, tomorrow can we come back and revisit this?
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.519
Because I don't like something about that interaction did not sit well with me.
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:24.000
And I don't know, I don't know exactly what it is, and I don't want to tell you the wrong thing, but I don't want to, I don't want to leave the room thinking that that was okay because it's really not okay.
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:25.599
Yeah, absolutely.
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:32.000
And um, actually, I have another book quote that I want to bring out, um, but it's from your book.
00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:39.119
Um uh for those that don't know, Hannah wrote an amazing book, Trust Physics.
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:44.319
Uh, and I think there's a quote that's really valuable to us as we think about expectations.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:54.960
Um, it's not controlling to communicate clear expectations, to name consequences, and to initiate honest conversations about what's working and what isn't.
00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:56.319
It's respect.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:01.440
It says, I believe you can handle the truth and I trust you enough to tell it to you.
00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:02.319
Absolutely.
00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:04.799
This is this is a hard one lesson.
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:18.480
And I I can't, I won't, I won't go into all the the the things that made me learn about this, but um but it really, I mean, expectations are the building block block of trust, right?
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:24.720
Like if we don't know what to expect, we can't operate in a in a space where we feel safe.
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:42.640
And so sometimes if we don't, I think if we don't name our expectations and then they are violated or broken without communication, we respond by trying to control the situation because we feel attacked, the other person feels unsafe and we're like, okay, well, I'm just gonna tell you how to do things.
00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:43.440
Um, right.
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:45.599
Like, let's just like smush it down.
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:56.880
Whereas if we just, if we can just name the real thing that's happening, if we just say, if we use our words and we say, ouch, that crossed something in me that doesn't feel good.
00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.759
And I value our relationship and I wanna figure this out.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.279
Let's talk about it.
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:11.279
You know, um, we want to create psychological safety for folks to engage with us in a way that they feel safe, right?
00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:13.200
Like so boundaries are the edges.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:18.079
Expectations are how we tell people to stay away from the edges, right?
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:29.599
I talk about the dance floor with this and the accountability that accountability is about helping someone understand the edges of the dance floor and saying, hey, and then when they wander toward the edge, you go, hey, hey, hey, come on back.
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:31.440
I don't want you to wander off.
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:33.039
It's dangerous out there, right?
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:34.160
Like stay inside.
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:36.799
This is this is where this is where we're doing our dance.
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:44.960
And the more they know where the edges are, the freer their dance becomes because they're not worried they're going to accidentally wander off into the dark.
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.279
They know exactly, they can improvise because there's safety.
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.039
And it's it's absolutely the opposite of being controlling.
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:57.119
I think it's important that this is within a trust framework.
00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:59.680
Uh, because I don't know if you've seen this in the news lately.
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:02.000
There have been some articles recently about it.
00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:11.680
Uh, people using uh, we'll say therapies speak for manipulation instead of the good that it's intended.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:20.079
Like therapy is so important and it's such a good thing for so many people, and it can be such a valuable part of your life.
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:28.480
And there is a way to take the language of that world and use it to control or manipulate someone.
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:30.559
Um, have you come across that?
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:32.960
How does how do you see that in this framework?
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.200
I absolutely have experienced that.
00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:38.960
I haven't seen articles about it, but I I definitely know the feeling of it.
00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:46.799
And I think boundaries and expectations and accountability and a lot of the language of trust physics is rooted in psychology.
00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:50.880
And so, like, I think people use boundaries as a way to manipulate people.
00:23:51.039 --> 00:24:00.000
Well, you're crossing my boundaries, you're violating my boundaries, and my boundary is that people can't wear red inside my house, or right, like that's a facetious one.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:09.039
But you know, like I have a boundary that anybody who says, you know, that anyone who wears crocs is, you know, is is a bad person or whatever.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:15.680
Like people, people can use, people do use language, people weaponize language and use it to manipulate.
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:17.519
That is, that is a human condition.
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:27.440
Just because someone uses the right words does not mean they are acting in alignment with with those words.
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:30.799
It doesn't mean that they're whole, it doesn't mean that they have integrity.
00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:38.640
In fact, there's a lot of people, and it's a big cultural thing, and we'll get into this more in our next episode, which is focused on accountability.
00:24:38.960 --> 00:25:01.200
But there's a lot in our culture that says that there are people who should not be held accountable and people who believe they should never be held accountable to a standard that someone else sets because they're too powerful, they're too important, they're too smart, whatever it is, there's a reason that they don't need to be account held accountable.
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:14.160
And so they will use any tool at their disposal to convince you that you're wrong for trying to hold them accountable and that it's that you're the one who's manipulative.
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:15.839
I mean, this is all a form of gaslighting, right?
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:20.640
Like that they ultimately are communicating that you are bad as a person.
00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:24.720
You are wrong because you are trying to do something right.
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:39.200
Yeah, I think it's often used as an argument stopper uh where people, where you might have a disagreement and someone says, Well, this just violates my boundaries and I'm not feeling heard, or whatever it may be is, well, um, it violates my boundaries that you think I'm wrong.
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:39.920
You know.
00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:40.960
That doesn't count.
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:47.039
I will I will tell you right now, I call bullshit if I'm gonna have to check the little thing on the podcast that says we swear in this one.
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:57.920
Um, that yeah, like boundaries are about where are they and and if somebody wants to with withdraw themselves from a conversation based on a boundary, that is their op that is their choice, right?
00:25:58.000 --> 00:25:59.680
Like again, this is all about choices.
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:01.759
You have choices and they have choices.
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:13.519
And if somebody wants to try and manipulate you with language, you can say, I don't feel safe in this relationship because what you're asking me to do is not in alignment with who I am as a person.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:17.200
And I am sorry, I can't be the kind of support that you need right now.
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:17.680
Right.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:25.839
Like you have the choice to opt out if somebody's using words in a way that is demonstrating their inauthenticity.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:26.400
Yeah.
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:28.400
And if if only that were easy.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:28.960
Facts.
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:38.400
The reason like breakups are big events in our lives, whether that's a friend or a significant other or in professional settings.
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:39.359
Absolutely.
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:50.799
But it, you know, staying in a relationship where you can't stay whole is effectively preventing you from being in relationships where you with people who want you to be whole.
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:55.759
I will quote Run the Jewels here, uh, one of my favorite hip-hop bands.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.160
They have a song that says, Can't pick up no crown holding what's holding you down.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:02.319
And I recommend you check it out.
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:06.640
But can't pick no, you can't you can't pick up your crown if you're holding what's holding you down.
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:14.640
And somebody who needs you not to be whole in order to be in relationship with them, that's an anchor, not a kite.
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:16.319
Why you want to hold on to it?
00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:17.599
Yeah, beautifully said.
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.680
Well, I'm excited for the next episode when we can really get into accountability.
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:28.160
Thank you to uh you for writing a great book that I could quote and really get some inspiration from this.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:33.359
And I encourage anyone that wants to really dive into this and learn more.
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:39.839
Um, go to the website conscience drivenleadership.com and you can find that book and download a copy today.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:40.799
Absolutely.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:42.400
And thank you all for listening.
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:45.599
Thank you, Julie, for having these awesome conversations with me.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:56.720
Thank you to my not doppelganger, Anna Miller, our wonderful producer, who helps us slow down and unpack things when Julie and I want to like just like take it into another galaxy.
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:04.160
Um, and to everybody who's collaborated on the trust physics and conscience-driven leadership concept because it's absolutely a team effort.
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:08.240
I just feel privileged to be the one who gets to put the words together.
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:15.119
So yeah, please follow along, learn more about conscience driven leadership and trust physics at conscience drivenleadership.com.
00:28:15.440 --> 00:28:17.119
And we will catch you next time.
00:28:17.359 --> 00:28:18.720
Thanks for listening.
00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:19.599
Bye.
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:20.559
Bye.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:04.160
An unspoken expectation is a relational landmine, right?
00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:11.119
If you want a relationship to fail, don't tell them what you expect from them, because then they will mess up and you will be angry at them.
00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:13.359
Guaranteed, every time.
00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:22.559
Welcome everyone to Inside Conscience Driven Leadership.
00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:28.719
I'm your host, Hannah Miller, here with Julie Uber, co-conspirator and bird enthusiast.
00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:30.640
Ooh, yay, birds.
00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:33.119
Fellow bird enthusiast over here.
00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:36.079
Yeah, you get to see some really cool birds, don't you?
00:00:36.399 --> 00:00:36.799
We do.
00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:38.960
Spain has totally different birds.
00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:42.479
I saw, I saw a hoopo in Catalonia.
00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:51.840
And I don't know if you know of a hoopo, but I have, I have this bird, this book called The Conference of the Birds that's an ancient, um, I think it's a Sufi poem.
00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:55.280
Um, and the hoopo is kind of the leader of the birds in it.
00:00:55.359 --> 00:01:00.880
And I, it was totally like, I don't have like a lifelist typically, but I was like, I would really like to see a hoopo, and I never thought I would.
00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:01.840
And they're just they're cool.
00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:03.439
They got a big mohawk thing.
00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:13.439
I love seeing the sandhill cranes, which I know you can see in a lot of different places in the States, but just getting to see them when they wake up in the morning and they're just making so much noise.
00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:15.280
It's it's unbelievable.
00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:16.799
I grew up with sandhill cranes.
00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:17.920
They live in Florida year-round.
00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:20.000
Like you have like a family that lives in your yard.
00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:22.239
Anyway, we're not here.
00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:23.840
This isn't a birding podcast.
00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:26.239
You might be surprised to learn.
00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:33.280
We're actually here to talk about leadership, uh, conscience-driven leadership specifically.
00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:44.159
Um, so conscience-driven leadership is a framework that I created that's for leaders who are driven by their conscience and not by a motive for profit or success or something else.
00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:48.560
They're driven by their conscience to lead on behalf of the people that they lead.
00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:54.159
And uh, it describes the kind of leader that I most love to work with and most often work with.
00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:56.480
And Julie is certainly one of those folks.
00:01:56.719 --> 00:01:57.599
I appreciate that.
00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:03.280
I feel like it's a compliment because I'm really excited for everything that CDL brings forward.
00:02:03.439 --> 00:02:09.360
And I'm grateful that it's described and something we can talk about now because we need the language in order to do that.
00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:14.159
Um, and a key part of CDL is uh trust physics.
00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:16.639
And that is the theme of this season.
00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:26.639
Trust physics is a way to stay whole in your relationships by holding people accountable in ways that drive relationships forward and doesn't close them down.
00:02:27.039 --> 00:02:29.280
Thank you so much for that lovely introduction, Julie.
00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:37.680
Today we're going to be discussing two really critical pieces of trust physics, which is boundaries and expectations, right?
00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:46.319
So we talked in the first episode about integrity and how integrity is from the Latin root of integer, which means whole or complete.
00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:51.680
And expectations and bound boundaries are ultimately the definition of how we stay whole, right?
00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:54.719
That in order for something to be entire, it has boundaries.
00:02:54.800 --> 00:03:01.199
And so we're going to be diving into what boundaries mean for a conscience-driven leader and what they mean in the context of trust physics.
00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:05.840
We're also going to be talking about expectations, which are really critical for building trust.
00:03:06.000 --> 00:03:09.280
So boundaries define what wholeness looks like for us.
00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:13.439
And expectations is about how we communicate those boundaries to others.
00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:20.240
I feel like this is a hard one that a lot of people recognize that they have trouble holding their boundaries.
00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:24.560
And I know for me, it's just this desire to do all the things.
00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:31.280
Like in undergrad, I did majors in anthropology and English with a minor in biology, which is silly.
00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:37.039
I also almost minored in like art history and French just because I want to do all the things.
00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:45.520
And so I'm often the one that is um stomping on my own boundaries and my own needs, I feel like.
00:03:45.840 --> 00:04:04.400
But I they're also really important to practice because they're important in relationships and being able to know yourself well enough to communicate those boundaries, to know them and to communicate them before they're a problem uh can be really important to relationships personally and professionally.
00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:07.759
Absolutely, because a relationship has boundaries too, right?
00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:12.400
And so it's it's really, we talk about boundaries as this thing we must defend.
00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:16.160
And I think it's maybe more something that we need to protect, right?
00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:19.600
Like we're protecting ourselves by protecting our boundaries.
00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:20.720
And I agree with you.
00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:22.800
I think a lot of us don't even know what they are, right?
00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:35.120
Like I think maybe we recognize sometimes when they get trumpled on, but it depends on how used to them being crossed and stomped on that we are, whether we realize the problem as it's happening.
00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:36.079
No, absolutely.
00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:53.759
It's it's protective of you, I think is actually protective of the other person too, because when you take the time to know what your boundaries are and why they're important, then you get to make something clear that otherwise people aren't going to know why they've upset you.
00:04:53.920 --> 00:05:01.439
They don't know why they've damaged the relationship if you have not commuted, communicated your boundaries with them.
00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:02.160
Absolutely.
00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:12.399
And someone who wants to be whole in relationship with you and who wants you to be whole in relationship with them wants the relationship to have that integrity, doesn't want to cross your boundaries.
00:05:12.480 --> 00:05:13.839
They want to know what they are.
00:05:14.079 --> 00:05:22.959
But first we have to understand really what they are, because I think we talk about, you know, and we're gonna, it's gonna be a theme of this podcast probably forever because we like to define words.
00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:32.319
And words are really important because most of the words when we talk about leadership are words that have been defined or the definition has been watered down over a really long time.
00:05:32.480 --> 00:05:36.560
I don't know, what are the like first things that come to mind for you, Julie, when you think about a boundary?
00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:40.079
It makes me think about finding the edges.
00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:46.959
This is why you're this is why you're a conscience-driven leader, is because that's exactly how we think of them in conscience-driven leadership.
00:05:47.120 --> 00:05:51.519
I think often in colloquial English, we think of boundaries as like a preference I have.
00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:57.199
Like that's my boundary, don't cross it, or it's a request or some kind of rule that you have to follow.
00:05:57.439 --> 00:05:59.839
But I am, we're completely on the same page of this.
00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:02.079
A boundary is the, it's the edge, right?
00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:11.759
So boundary is ultimately the condition under which you can remain whole in the situation, in the relationship, et cetera, in the system, right?
00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:17.519
So boundaries are a set of conditions that if they are not met, your wholeness is damaged.
00:06:17.600 --> 00:06:29.759
And so we recognize boundaries often when they are crossed or when they are broken, because that costs us something deep and important inside of us when a boundary is crossed.
00:06:29.839 --> 00:06:33.199
It's not just I, well, I wish you'd behave this way or or that.
00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:41.279
It's I can't be whole in this relationship if that behavior continues or if that's how this real this relationship is going to be.
00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:42.000
Like that.
00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:48.480
And so the question of trust physics is am I willing to be in relationships where I'm not whole?
00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:59.199
It makes me think about um not coming at it from a scarcity mindset to really be thinking about it of from that wholeness that you're talking about.
00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:04.160
Because I think where we get into trouble is when we think about boundaries as limitations.
00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:12.399
Uh I am limited because I have boundaries, or I am limiting what other people can do because of my boundaries.
00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:23.279
Uh, and I think that when we think about it from that scarcity approach, then they're always going to be a little bit more of a scary topic and one that we don't feel good about.
00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:29.199
I think that a lot of conscience-driven leaders, we feel like we shouldn't have boundaries because we're here in support of other people.
00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:33.519
And so it's maybe selfish to have a boundary and say, no, that's not.
00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:38.560
And it's ultimately though, nothing in trust physics is about telling someone how they can or can't behave.
00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:44.959
Trust physics is about giving people the information they need to make a choice based on reality.
00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:52.399
And so knowing your boundaries and expressing your boundaries as expectations isn't telling someone you can't do this.
00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:55.920
It's telling someone, if you do this, that causes me harm.
00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:00.079
And that might change the nature of our relationship if you choose to continue to do that.
00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:02.879
It's always up to the other person to make the choice.
00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:14.000
And it's up to us to make the choice about whether we want to be in relationship with somebody who knows our boundaries and our expectations and consistently crosses them or disregards them.
00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:14.480
Yeah.
00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:22.079
And I think oftentimes our boundaries are the opposite side of a positive coin.
00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:30.319
Like we there's something good that we value or that we do, but in order to do that well, that boundary is tied to it.
00:08:30.480 --> 00:08:39.120
I I mean, I think an example from my life is I feel uh in professional settings, I think it really matters to show up and to be present.
00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:49.039
Uh, and it's really important when I'm running a statewide organization because there are parts of the state that get visited less.
00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:56.000
It is just as easy for me to get to a rural part of Arizona as it is for me to get to the state capitol.
00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:58.559
But people are more likely to go to the state capitol.
00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:00.639
And that that worries me.
00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:09.600
I want to be in rural spaces, I want to meet people, I want to hear about their community because that's how we serve well, is we do things with community.
00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:11.919
But that means showing up, that means taking the drive.
00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:17.200
That means even if I have to drive longer than the meeting will take, it could be worth it.
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:19.519
And I want to be there with people.
00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:34.639
So I think that's a positive, but I have a boundary of if I go to an event and I don't feel like I am doing anything or meeting new people or am being frankly put to work, then I can leave.
00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:47.200
And that took a long time for me to realize that that's a boundary, that if something isn't serving me, I don't have to continue to uh really put forward being present and being there.
00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:50.159
I really can just give myself a break.
00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:52.559
I think that's a really great example.
00:09:52.720 --> 00:10:01.919
I I have a similar one in that I one of my boundaries is I don't, I'm not interested in relationships where I'm only the audience, right?
00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:07.440
If somebody wants me around because I'm gonna go, oh yeah, oh, mm-hmm, oh yeah.
00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:16.879
And they're not gonna ask any questions about me or they're not gonna express any genuine interest in me as a person, um, I don't need to be in that relationship.
00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:22.000
And it's been painful to insist on that at times, right?
00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:32.639
Like I think because a lot of us, you know, a lot of us have these expectations of ourselves that once we have done something, like once we've driven to the meeting, we stay, right?
00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:36.159
Like that's what a good person does, or we have these moral judgments.
00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:49.039
This is a topic I'm gonna be writing about because I have am developing like this understanding about how our culture has conflated moral judgment with accountability.
00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:57.919
If you think you're not being accountable to some expectation that isn't named, you or have somehow failed as a human, but it's not a fully baked thought yet.
00:10:58.240 --> 00:10:59.679
But um, yeah, right.
00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:03.919
And so that that boundary, I hadn't thought of it in the reverse term, the way you framed it.
00:11:04.080 --> 00:11:08.399
That boundary for me comes from really loving to engage with people.
00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:13.120
I want a two-way connection and I'm happy to give attention to someone.
00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:15.759
It's not that I need to be the center of attention all the time.
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:21.360
It's that I need there to be an exchange because I am energized by the exchange between people.
00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:31.679
And if somebody has no room in them for an exchange, that's I that's time I could be spending doing something more fun and more important in the world.
00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:34.960
And so that's just that's just how I that's just how I roll.
00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:38.639
And there are totally people who think that I am a rude asshole because of it.
00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:41.440
And that is the cost we are really afraid of, right?
00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:43.200
Like, what is somebody gonna think of me?
00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:46.799
What are they gonna think when you drove all the way and then you left halfway through, Julie?
00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:47.600
Yeah.
00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:53.039
And it's a good reminder that different people are going to play different roles in your life.
00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:55.200
And that's a lesson I had to learn too.
00:11:55.360 --> 00:12:05.519
That even though I love people and I love getting to know people and love developing relationships, um, different people are gonna play a different part in that.
00:12:05.759 --> 00:12:22.240
And if we're not going to, you know, hang out every weekend or have a really personal relationship, there's still a way to be mindful about your boundaries and have them in your life, but be intentional about what role they're playing.
00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:22.720
Right.
00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:31.679
And I think, I think for in trust physics, we want boundaries to define our participation in the work, in the relationship, in life.
00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:38.159
Like boundaries tell us where our participation is most important and most necessary.
00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:47.279
And it gives us permission to withdraw our participation from the places where our val our greatest value isn't being utilized.
00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:48.879
Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:56.960
And I think that if you can't share your boundaries, that's uh potentially a red flag, right?
00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:01.919
That's something, especially in personal relationships, to pay attention to.
00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:10.080
If you feel uncomfortable sharing a boundary, is it because you've learned in that type of relationship that it's dangerous?
00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:15.840
Is it because of that relationship and um the safety you feel in it?
00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:23.279
I think it's important to explore that and to kind of think about why those boundaries are not something you can talk about.
00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:34.159
Absolutely, because if you're ultimately, if we let our boundaries be stomped on or broken, that's a form of self-betrayal, right?
00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:38.320
Like we are betraying our wholeness to stay in relationship.
00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:40.960
And if we aren't whole, the relationship isn't whole.
00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:44.879
The entire if we don't have that integrity, the relationship doesn't have that integrity.
00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:50.240
And so are we doing it out of a misguided sense of trying to protect the other person?
00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:51.600
Because we have a whole law about that.
00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:55.039
We will talk about how niceness is a form of non-consent.
00:13:55.360 --> 00:14:06.080
Or are we in a relationship with a person or a situ an institution or a system that requires us to not be whole because they're not whole in a different way?
00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:10.480
And they're trying to get us to fill in something that's really theirs to own.
00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:13.600
So boundaries are it's important that we know them.
00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:18.159
It's export important that we communicate them because that is how integrity happens.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:19.120
Absolutely.
00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:19.519
Yeah.
00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:23.279
Why do you think they're so hard for conscience-driven leaders?
00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:28.799
I think we've touched on this, but like what what's the struggle to prioritize ourselves?
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:33.039
I think it's because we care a lot about systems change.
00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:35.360
And we know that that work never ends.
00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:42.559
And we are willing to make personal sacrifices for the good of the group.
00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:48.480
And sometimes that matters and sometimes that's important, but it doesn't mean we have to do it all the time.
00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:50.879
And we have to fake we have to find those edges.
00:14:50.960 --> 00:14:58.559
We have to know uh what is truly going to make a difference in this community, in this scenario, and in our society.
00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:09.360
And where are we just letting ourselves get stomped on because we are used to self-sacrifice as a tool in our tool belt.
00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:17.200
And I think you can you can have, I think you can do self-sacrifice without crossing your boundaries, right?
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:22.000
Like well, when I was running the circus, we put in a holiday show every year.
00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:23.840
And we never went dark.
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:24.960
Like that was one of our things.
00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:32.960
We were a 365-day operation, and so we didn't have a single day to rehearse that we weren't also doing a show, including dress rehearsals.
00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:39.679
And so for like eight weeks before the show went in, it was long days.
00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:45.519
And it was every day because since we're 365 days a year, that means every day you have a different cast.
00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:48.399
So you have to practice every day's show.
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:49.759
You have to practice over and over.
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:58.320
People have to learn multiple parts because there needs to be flexibility in who rides which horse in which act at what time, based on who's there that day.
00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:04.240
And that's it's predictable to a certain degree and it's unpredictable to a huge degree.
00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:08.159
So there weren't other people who knew what I knew about the show.
00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:15.039
There weren't other people who understood exactly how the act was supposed to be timed, exactly what the choreography was like, who knew how to ride horses.
00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:21.600
I had an incredible assistant and she took the actors, thank goodness, because directing actors is really hard for me, but she can't ride horses.
00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:25.759
And so sometimes the trouble somebody's having is a technical problem.
00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:32.399
And I once had to get on a horse and show somebody the movement that I meant because I couldn't explain it with words.
00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:37.519
But so, I mean, those were 16-hour days for two months of the year.
00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:44.080
Um, and you know, I took the time when the show was happening, I would take a break and go take myself to dinner and read a book.
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:46.799
And but then I was there until four in the morning often.
00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:53.039
And so huge amount of self-sacrifice, but not a not any kind of violation of my boundaries.
00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:54.320
I was sacrificing my sleep.
00:16:54.399 --> 00:17:00.320
I was sacrificing time with my partner, which we had we had agreed on before, right?
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.120
Like we knew the ex we set expectations, we knew the boundaries.
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:11.279
For him, that was okay as long as it was within this time frame and we planned time that we got back afterward.
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:13.759
But there was no cost to me as a person.
00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:20.079
My integrity was maintained, even though I was sacrificing a lot from an external perspective.
00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:21.599
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:34.480
You had the conversation beforehand so that your relationships could stay whole and you knew what you needed, which was maybe a little bit of reading time, a little bit of quiet time.
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:40.720
Um, so I do think that that takes knowing yourself and being comfortable in your relationships.
00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:41.920
I think that's a process.
00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:42.880
It really is.
00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:44.319
It's totally the process.
00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:47.440
It's the it's the topic of our season three of the podcast.
00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:56.960
I think the theme of season three is the self-work it takes to do the stuff we're talking about this season around the practical application of trust physics.
00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:05.920
So I think this is a good transition to expectations because naming our boundaries and communicating our boundaries is ultimately the job of expectations, right?
00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:10.160
Expectations tell people how to stay in relationship with us.
00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:20.319
They tell people where our participation will stop and what what you know what's behavi what, you know, what behaviors we, you know, we will tolerate.
00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:29.279
Um, and if we deprive someone of our expectations, if we don't share our boundaries and the expectations that emerge from them, we're setting them up to fail.
00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:33.359
An unspoken expectation is a relational landmine, right?
00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:42.240
If you want a relationship to fail, don't tell them what you expect from them, because then they will mess up and you will be angry at them, guaranteed, every time.
00:18:42.640 --> 00:18:53.599
Yeah, I think it's important to be really thoughtful about how those are communicated and really upfront is best, but also as soon as they're violated.
00:18:53.839 --> 00:19:03.359
I I think oftentimes we sit on something and think about it, or we stew, or we try want time to kind of take it apart, which is understandable.
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:09.359
People kind of need different thinking time to really decide how to move forward.
00:19:09.680 --> 00:19:14.160
But bringing them up before is ideal, but it's not always possible.
00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:16.880
Sometimes you're like, ooh, look, a boundary.
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:19.119
I found it because someone crossed it.
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:21.119
That's an expectation I need to set.
00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:22.000
Right.
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.480
But when that happens, it doesn't help to just make a mental note of it.
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.039
Some you you do have to talk to about it of like, actually that kind of sucked.
00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:36.480
But I've I mean, we haven't talked about this, so maybe we should talk about that so it doesn't have to suck.
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:37.680
Absolutely.
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:46.000
And I think, you know, and and I think it's really important, it's guaranteed you cannot name every boundary and expectation up front because there's a lot of them.
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:50.000
And it's like, so don't don't give yourself that that bar to clear.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:55.119
And if you fail to clear it, then you just have to live with the consequences, which is another thing I think we all do.
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:57.440
Like, oh, well, I should have anticipated it and I didn't.
00:19:57.519 --> 00:19:58.559
So therefore I suffer.
00:19:58.720 --> 00:19:59.599
That's my punishment.
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.200
You can communicate it in the moment, even if you are someone who needs time to think.
00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:05.680
You can be like, ooh, that didn't feel good.
00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.480
I need to unpack that a little bit and we're okay.
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:11.359
But like, tomorrow can we come back and revisit this?
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.519
Because I don't like something about that interaction did not sit well with me.
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:24.000
And I don't know, I don't know exactly what it is, and I don't want to tell you the wrong thing, but I don't want to, I don't want to leave the room thinking that that was okay because it's really not okay.
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:25.599
Yeah, absolutely.
00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:32.000
And um, actually, I have another book quote that I want to bring out, um, but it's from your book.
00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:39.119
Um uh for those that don't know, Hannah wrote an amazing book, Trust Physics.
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:44.319
Uh, and I think there's a quote that's really valuable to us as we think about expectations.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:54.960
Um, it's not controlling to communicate clear expectations, to name consequences, and to initiate honest conversations about what's working and what isn't.
00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:56.319
It's respect.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:01.440
It says, I believe you can handle the truth and I trust you enough to tell it to you.
00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:02.319
Absolutely.
00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:04.799
This is this is a hard one lesson.
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:18.480
And I I can't, I won't, I won't go into all the the the things that made me learn about this, but um but it really, I mean, expectations are the building block block of trust, right?
00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:24.720
Like if we don't know what to expect, we can't operate in a in a space where we feel safe.
00:21:25.039 --> 00:21:42.640
And so sometimes if we don't, I think if we don't name our expectations and then they are violated or broken without communication, we respond by trying to control the situation because we feel attacked, the other person feels unsafe and we're like, okay, well, I'm just gonna tell you how to do things.
00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:43.440
Um, right.
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:45.599
Like, let's just like smush it down.
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:56.880
Whereas if we just, if we can just name the real thing that's happening, if we just say, if we use our words and we say, ouch, that crossed something in me that doesn't feel good.
00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.759
And I value our relationship and I wanna figure this out.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.279
Let's talk about it.
00:22:01.519 --> 00:22:11.279
You know, um, we want to create psychological safety for folks to engage with us in a way that they feel safe, right?
00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:13.200
Like so boundaries are the edges.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:18.079
Expectations are how we tell people to stay away from the edges, right?
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:29.599
I talk about the dance floor with this and the accountability that accountability is about helping someone understand the edges of the dance floor and saying, hey, and then when they wander toward the edge, you go, hey, hey, hey, come on back.
00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:31.440
I don't want you to wander off.
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:33.039
It's dangerous out there, right?
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:34.160
Like stay inside.
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:36.799
This is this is where this is where we're doing our dance.
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:44.960
And the more they know where the edges are, the freer their dance becomes because they're not worried they're going to accidentally wander off into the dark.
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.279
They know exactly, they can improvise because there's safety.
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.039
And it's it's absolutely the opposite of being controlling.
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:57.119
I think it's important that this is within a trust framework.
00:22:57.200 --> 00:22:59.680
Uh, because I don't know if you've seen this in the news lately.
00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:02.000
There have been some articles recently about it.
00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:11.680
Uh, people using uh, we'll say therapies speak for manipulation instead of the good that it's intended.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:20.079
Like therapy is so important and it's such a good thing for so many people, and it can be such a valuable part of your life.
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:28.480
And there is a way to take the language of that world and use it to control or manipulate someone.
00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:30.559
Um, have you come across that?
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:32.960
How does how do you see that in this framework?
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:35.200
I absolutely have experienced that.
00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:38.960
I haven't seen articles about it, but I I definitely know the feeling of it.
00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:46.799
And I think boundaries and expectations and accountability and a lot of the language of trust physics is rooted in psychology.
00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:50.880
And so, like, I think people use boundaries as a way to manipulate people.
00:23:51.039 --> 00:24:00.000
Well, you're crossing my boundaries, you're violating my boundaries, and my boundary is that people can't wear red inside my house, or right, like that's a facetious one.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:09.039
But you know, like I have a boundary that anybody who says, you know, that anyone who wears crocs is, you know, is is a bad person or whatever.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:15.680
Like people, people can use, people do use language, people weaponize language and use it to manipulate.
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:17.519
That is, that is a human condition.
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:27.440
Just because someone uses the right words does not mean they are acting in alignment with with those words.
00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:30.799
It doesn't mean that they're whole, it doesn't mean that they have integrity.
00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:38.640
In fact, there's a lot of people, and it's a big cultural thing, and we'll get into this more in our next episode, which is focused on accountability.
00:24:38.960 --> 00:25:01.200
But there's a lot in our culture that says that there are people who should not be held accountable and people who believe they should never be held accountable to a standard that someone else sets because they're too powerful, they're too important, they're too smart, whatever it is, there's a reason that they don't need to be account held accountable.
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:14.160
And so they will use any tool at their disposal to convince you that you're wrong for trying to hold them accountable and that it's that you're the one who's manipulative.
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:15.839
I mean, this is all a form of gaslighting, right?
00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:20.640
Like that they ultimately are communicating that you are bad as a person.
00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:24.720
You are wrong because you are trying to do something right.
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:39.200
Yeah, I think it's often used as an argument stopper uh where people, where you might have a disagreement and someone says, Well, this just violates my boundaries and I'm not feeling heard, or whatever it may be is, well, um, it violates my boundaries that you think I'm wrong.
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:39.920
You know.
00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:40.960
That doesn't count.
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:47.039
I will I will tell you right now, I call bullshit if I'm gonna have to check the little thing on the podcast that says we swear in this one.
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:57.920
Um, that yeah, like boundaries are about where are they and and if somebody wants to with withdraw themselves from a conversation based on a boundary, that is their op that is their choice, right?
00:25:58.000 --> 00:25:59.680
Like again, this is all about choices.
00:25:59.839 --> 00:26:01.759
You have choices and they have choices.
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:13.519
And if somebody wants to try and manipulate you with language, you can say, I don't feel safe in this relationship because what you're asking me to do is not in alignment with who I am as a person.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:17.200
And I am sorry, I can't be the kind of support that you need right now.
00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:17.680
Right.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:25.839
Like you have the choice to opt out if somebody's using words in a way that is demonstrating their inauthenticity.
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:26.400
Yeah.
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:28.400
And if if only that were easy.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:28.960
Facts.
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:38.400
The reason like breakups are big events in our lives, whether that's a friend or a significant other or in professional settings.
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:39.359
Absolutely.
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:50.799
But it, you know, staying in a relationship where you can't stay whole is effectively preventing you from being in relationships where you with people who want you to be whole.
00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:55.759
I will quote Run the Jewels here, uh, one of my favorite hip-hop bands.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.160
They have a song that says, Can't pick up no crown holding what's holding you down.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:02.319
And I recommend you check it out.
00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:06.640
But can't pick no, you can't you can't pick up your crown if you're holding what's holding you down.
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:14.640
And somebody who needs you not to be whole in order to be in relationship with them, that's an anchor, not a kite.
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:16.319
Why you want to hold on to it?
00:27:16.480 --> 00:27:17.599
Yeah, beautifully said.
00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:21.680
Well, I'm excited for the next episode when we can really get into accountability.
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:28.160
Thank you to uh you for writing a great book that I could quote and really get some inspiration from this.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:33.359
And I encourage anyone that wants to really dive into this and learn more.
00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:39.839
Um, go to the website conscience drivenleadership.com and you can find that book and download a copy today.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:40.799
Absolutely.
00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:42.400
And thank you all for listening.
00:27:42.559 --> 00:27:45.599
Thank you, Julie, for having these awesome conversations with me.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:56.720
Thank you to my not doppelganger, Anna Miller, our wonderful producer, who helps us slow down and unpack things when Julie and I want to like just like take it into another galaxy.
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:04.160
Um, and to everybody who's collaborated on the trust physics and conscience-driven leadership concept because it's absolutely a team effort.
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:08.240
I just feel privileged to be the one who gets to put the words together.
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So yeah, please follow along, learn more about conscience driven leadership and trust physics at conscience drivenleadership.com.
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And we will catch you next time.
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Thanks for listening.
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Bye.
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Bye.
