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In today's episode, Kumar Santil, the founder and CEO of Firmly, shares his story from the corporate world to entrepreneurship.
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Discover how Kumar identified a global problem faced by merchants and developed an innovative solution to simplify integration with new shopping platforms like Instagram Shop and TikTok Shop.
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His story is one of resilience and vision, overcoming skepticism from VCs to create a merchant-centric platform that empowers businesses to thrive in the evolving e-commerce landscape.
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Welcome to the Startup to Exit podcast, where we bring you world-class entrepreneurs and VCs to share their hard-earned success stories and secrets.
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Hi everyone, my name is Shiresh Dadkurney.
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I am very pleased to welcome today Kumar Santil.
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He's part of our startup spotlight series.
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Kumar is an accomplished technologist.
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He's worked for well-known companies like Microsoft, Groupon, Samsung, and many others.
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And he now has a start startup called firmly.ai.
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So welcome, Kumar.
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Thank you, Suresh.
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So let's get started by asking the most important question, which is you've been in the corporate world for quite some time.
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What made you decide suddenly to go uh start a company?
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Oh, that's a great question.
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So, I mean, I've done my fair share of time in the corporate world and uh I started seeing the same thing over and over again.
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And I said, okay, this is good enough tax I paid.
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But more importantly, I started uh seeing this opportunity that I just couldn't pass.
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Because uh when I was at Samsung or even prior companies, a lot of partners would come and pitch different ideas to me, saying, hey, I can help sell your products uh different places.
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But then the moment I ask what do I have to do, I have to integrate with them.
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I've done my fair share of integration, but then I said, Man, I cannot keep infinitely integrating uh uh and maintain it and operate it, right?
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It's it's untenable.
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So and then also I realized it's just not going to be it's gonna be a global problem.
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Every merchant is gonna have the same problem.
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Because new shopping experiences are gonna be built by different parties, new things are gonna come, and merchants will not be able to have a mechanism to go and integrate with them.
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And on these new channels that are coming up, that at that time it was more of Instagram shop, TikTok shop, and and the few other players that were coming up.
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And it's just not tenable.
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And every merchant now is trying uh figuring out how do I go and set up a shop there and how do I enable selling and all of that.
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It was it was a it's a pain as a merchant.
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So that's when I started thinking, okay, if we can solve this problem for the merchants, then it would make sense for everyone, right?
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So that's how I started thinking and realized, okay, it's it's now or never.
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I should do it full-time or not about this, right?
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So that's how I left my job and jumped into this opportunity.
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So when did you start uh firmly?
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In uh late 2020.
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Okay.
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So you've been working here for quite some time.
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Yes, I am.
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This is a hard problem I'm solving.
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People uh when I initially started talking about this, especially VCs laughed at me, saying, This is the dumbest idea I've ever heard.
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Why would anybody do this?
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Right.
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So but then there are some brave souls.
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They got they were they saw the vision I was looking at and then took a bet on me.
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Right.
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Then we built the product.
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Right.
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So what is your what is your solution?
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So how do you solve this uh this problem where you know merchants have to integrate with all these different platforms?
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Yeah, great question.
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So as a merchant, if uh I know how to operate my website, right?
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And the website has all kinds of capabilities when it talks to its backend, it uses some sort of APIs.
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Some sites don't even have APIs, but it has a mechanism to talk to its back end.
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So we came up with a platform that can talk to a website without merchant making any change, either leveraging their existing APIs or whatever other means they use to talk to it natively.
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So that as a merchant, I don't have to make any code change for for us, right?
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And then we provide a standardized API for our partners to integrate.
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If you take Perplexity, for instance, or others, they just integrate into our one standard API.
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Behind the scenes, you can connect to any number of merchants.
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Whatever we are connected to.
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They don't have to worry about, okay, what platform this merch merchant A is on, what platform merchant B is on, whether that merchant has API or not.
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None of that they need to worry about.
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That's the abstraction layer we built so that now it it gives easier access to all these merchants in our network to talk to.
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So that they can build a good shopping experience and they don't have to be a merchant of record.
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That's a big challenge.
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Then the previous avatar of Instagram, TikTok, Sharp World, they are the merchant of record.
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Right?
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So what does it mean, a merchant of record?
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Which means they charge the credit card and they collect all the first party data.
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And then normally what they do is they give a shipping address to the merchant to ship the product.
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But as a merchant, if I just receive a shipping address, it is useless to me.
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Yes, okay, great.
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I got an order, I can I get something out of it, but I cannot build a lifetime value with that customer.
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Right.
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Right?
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So if I cannot build lifetime value over a period of time, it's just a matter of time, then I'm gonna go out of business.
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Right?
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So that's why I built this as a merchant-centric solution.
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Keep the merchant as the merchant of record so that they can get the first-party data and they can build lifetime value.
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Right?
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If the merchants are successful, all the ecosystem will be successful.
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If the merchants are not successful, you know, this ecosystem won't exist.
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Right.
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Right.
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That's why we built this solution as a merchant-centric to make sure they get the first party data and they remain the merchant of record.
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Right.
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That's what we built.
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Right.
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The standardized API, now people can build all kinds of interesting apps.
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Now you would see I we are actually talking to so many of those with AI-powered shopping apps.
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Perplexity, JGBD are the prominent ones.
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There are a few that's been in works that they are going to announce soon.
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Uh we've been working with them as well.
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These are going to keep coming.
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More and more are going to come, right?
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So very niche apps are going to come uh, you know, for health and beauty or for fitness or different things where niche apps are going to come and they all need connectivity to the merchant.
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It's impossible for them to go and talk to every merchant and connect to them and and and and uh you know get remunerated for the orders they send.
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All of this we're solving.
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Right.
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How many merchants do you have in your platform?
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So we have about 11 million merchants now network.
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11 million.
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So you have figured out that's why it took you five years.
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Yes, exactly.
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Because you had to figure out how to integrate with that many uh merchants.
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Yes.
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I see.
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Got it.
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And on the um partner side, you said you have uh relationship with uh perplexity that you announced.
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Can you tell us more about that uh relationship and how it'll work?
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Yeah, definitely.
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I mean, for us, we are going to be powering their checkout experience primarily, right?
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So if you go to Perplexity and search for running shoes, right, and they they render the results.
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That is basically their their secret sauce, right?
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However, they recommend whatever products they are recommending.
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But when you click the buy with pro, then they bring up the experience where you can buy the product.
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Right?
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So that is going to be part by us.
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We haven't live yet.
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We're not done live yet.
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We're right.
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Right.
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They're finishing up the integrations.
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When we go live, we will bring real-time inventory price and product information and all of that real time for perplexity to render a nice UX.
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And then once a customer says I want to buy it, they call our API to place the order.
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And it's all in situ.
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Um means that the end user is still within the perplexity uh UI.
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They don't have to leave the uh UI and go to the merchant's website.
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It's all done.
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Just like with Instagram shopping or TikTok shopping.
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Exactly.
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But the merchant remains the merchant of record, right?
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That's the big big difference.
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And the way that uh you make money, both you and Perplexity make money is through affiliate phase?
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Yeah.
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That would be the model.
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But right now, Perplexity is not planning to charge the merchant.
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Maybe down the line they might.
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I mean, we don't know that how and how they're gonna do it.
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Right now, they're not charging anybody.
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Right.
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They're just taking as a fees for.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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Over to you, Gabri.
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Kumar, so now that you've been on this journey for five years, right?
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Um, as you just shared with us, was there was there been uh moments where you have said, why are we doing this?
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And because you've been laughed at.
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You've I'm sure you cried with somebody too about this.
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So how did you overcome that?
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It'll be useful for for our audience uh who are all startup entrepreneurs who think that they build something and they achieve product market fit.
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My core question is your journey took a while for you to achieve product market fit.
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And yes.
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So you asked, Why am I doing this for a while?
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How did you know that you achieved product market fit?
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Okay, so that's a great question, Gabriel.
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I mean, uh when I talk to entrepreneurs, we could relate to that empathy, the pain they go through.
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You know, uh I'll answer your question before that.
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I'll give an analogy, okay?
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This would be very interesting.
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Because uh one of my spiritual masters he gave an analogy how the life is in the material world.
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We are all like camels.
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The camel goes through a desert and it doesn't eat for drink for days.
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But then when it finds some bushes to eat, it just gazes that, right?
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It may the bushes may be thorny.
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So it it takes a bite at it, chews it, and the thorns actually poke the tongue of the camel, and the tongue starts bleeding, and it starts thinking, ah, this thorn is so tasty.
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This uh this is great, ah, tasty.
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This pain is more tasty.
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So that's how uh it this entrepreneur journey is it's so much pain, right?
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Uh every day, you know, wake up, so much rejections.
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You pitch, you know, so many VCs, they come, they laugh at you, and some may say, yeah, it's a great idea, but you know, I still can't put the money in, and so on, so much.
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But then there is one soul that comes in and says, Yes, I'm taking it better.
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I'll put the money, right?
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That gives you an energy saying, okay, now I want to do it.
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He is believing in me or she is right, uh believing in me or do it.
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So that was the journey.
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But early on, it was it was very difficult.
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For first two years, I would say first three years was extremely difficult.
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Because uh anytime I uh I go to pitch to either my potential customers or to VCs, the first question I will get is our first half an hour of an hour meeting will go on me explaining why we are not, help me why what's the difference between you and fast and bold.
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That's the conversation I'll have.
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And I have to spend half an hour just explaining no, I'm not, that I'm doing something different.
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And then they'll say, okay, now I understand what you're doing.
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But then I'm I'm still not following why anybody needs this product, right?
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So because customer can come to the site and transact why this uh offset uh ability is needed.
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But then uh there is a one customer we got, uh I cannot name them because it's under NDA.
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Uh we got it about two, two and a half years ago.
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So we cannot I cannot speak about them, but it's uh it's a large social platform.
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They got slammed because of Apple's uh transparency tracking situation.
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So when we pitched our idea saying, listen, we can enable the checkout within your environment, they loved it.
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They said, okay, this is great.
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I want a partner.
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Right?
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So that's our first breakthrough we got.
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But even before that, I'll take a step back.
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I'm building a two-sided marketplace.
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Because I need merchants to start with, and then the other side, I need the platforms to work with, to use my product.
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So when I went to the merchants, they said uh they asked me, okay, the idea is great, where can you help sell?
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I said, I don't have one.
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I said, okay, when you have one, come to me.
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Then I said, okay, let's go find platforms.
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We pitched to the platforms and they said, okay, how many merchants do you have?
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I don't have one.
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I said, okay, when you have one, come to me.
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So this chicken and egg situation was really a hard problem.
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That's where it took two, two and a half years for us to break through that log jam.
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Meanwhile, we tried different ideas, different ways to sort of get this going, but those solutions really didn't work.
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I mean, the core foundational product was there, but how do where do you submit this experience?
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Somewhere I should be able to help the customers buy stuff.
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We could we couldn't craft.
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So when this opportunity came and we were able to make that experience for 50 brands, they recruited the brands for us at that point.
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And when we went live with those 50 brands and thousands of transactions started happening real time and with a really low latency, they were pretty impressed.
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They said, okay, this is a solid product.
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Right?
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And then the ROAS boost they got were like 20 to 40% boost in ROAS.
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That's when we said, okay, now we have a product.
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We got the product market fit, we got a real product, there is, you know, opportunity here.
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And then uh from that point on, then slowly we got perplexity deal.
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And then the other s challenge I had was because we were working under NDA, we couldn't talk about it outside.
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So we were in in the shadows all along.
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So once we worked on a partnership with Perplexity and the PR came up, that gave us the real breakthrough.
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Right?
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So everybody started no, okay, this is a great concept.
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And also people until now didn't realize this is even possible.
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Right?
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Many tried and they failed.
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So they thought they gave up, saying, okay, this is not possible.
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But we took our time to understand the difficulties or the complexities involved in integrating with the merchant and and and building a robust platform at a very low latency.
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Because you can build the platform, you can connect it.
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You know, you and I can sit together over a weekend and maybe we might be able to connect one or two merchants.
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But building at a scalable model with a very low latency is extremely hard.
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That's the problem we cried we solve.
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Right, right.
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Our entire platform runs in 330 plus cities around the world.
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So we introduce less than 50 millisecond latency in our car.
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So very highly low, high, highly scalable, low latency solution we've got.
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So that way any partner comes in.
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The first question usually they ask is, Oh, how about latency?
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And okay, 50 milliseconds.
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Okay, great, 10.
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Right, right.
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So this um two-sided marketplace that you built, right?
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:23.039
Shirish has written a book on marketplaces and also built a startup and exited successfully on marketplaces.
00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:28.720
We've had Nick Husar from Offer Up on our podcast, you know, who also have built a two-sided marketplace.
00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:31.360
You needed sellers and buyers all come together.
00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:40.000
So in the go-to-market, one of the challenges that you face in a, as you pointed out, in um in a two-sided marketplace is the velocity.
00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:45.279
You got to move the flywheel enough that both sides feel it's worth coming there.
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:52.480
Did you employ any particular tactics like you made it, you said you made it easier for the merchants?
00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:57.279
You did you kind of say, aha, this will be the one that unlocks?
00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:04.559
You know, on the one hand, you have those who would like to connect to you, and external forces may have helped you in there.
00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:07.279
But the merchant part of it, they're selling now.
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:12.079
Yeah, you bring some benefits unclear yet till you deliver it.
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:18.000
What was there was any one or two unlock moments in that two-sided marketplace, especially on the merchant side?
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:32.000
On the merchant side, what I I do see is that they are seeing this this macro level, this agent e-commerce is a big landscape that they have no clue on how to enter into it.
00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:41.680
So when a partner comes and says, hey, by the way, I can enable it into this world, and you don't have to do anything other than just saying yes, that's a music to them.
00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:44.079
That's an unlock for moment for them.
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.160
Because they are all running clueless.
00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:51.359
And it's like, okay, how do I enable selling in perplexity or or other places?
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:52.160
How do I do this?
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.160
Yeah, everybody's talking about agent e-commerce.
00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:55.599
What does it mean actually?
00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:57.039
How does it manifest?
00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:58.880
That clarity nobody had.
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:04.559
After Perplexity launched and showed a user experience, people said, ah, okay, this is possible.
00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:06.720
Okay, now how do I be part of that?
00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:13.359
So a lot of merchants now are proactively reaching out to us, saying, Hey, I want to be part of your network.
00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:14.319
How do I do it?
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:15.519
What should I do?
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.079
So that that is creating a flywheel effect for us.
00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:25.359
And then there's uh that that's one one direct feed that's coming in.
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:33.200
The other one is I'm go these partners who want to work with us, like need connectivity to the merchants, they do have brand relationships.
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.559
They're saying, hey, I'll introduce you to a bunch of brands.
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:37.920
Can you connect to them?
00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.559
I because that's not my focus area.
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:42.160
I'm focused on something else.
00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:43.839
You go do that work for me.
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:44.720
I'm happy.
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:49.279
So that's feeding next level of merchant for your force.
00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:59.119
And the third one is more strategic, where the payment gateways, they are looking at saying, okay, we need to have an agency commerce story.
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:04.559
Instead of me going and building a team and trying to figure this out, all of this, can we partner with firmly?
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:10.640
Because anyway, they are helping me keep my business because we're not disrupting their business.
00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.000
We're enablers for them.
00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:18.319
So can we work with them to make sure we're part of that agent e-commerce ecosystem?
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:22.640
So there are different forces are feeding into our network.
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.240
That's so that's how we're creating a flywheel effect and pretty bullish effect.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:26.720
Got it.
00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:34.160
Seems like you you also you may have an opportunity where restaurants have the same challenge with uh delivery apps, right?
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:37.759
Because they they they don't know who who their customers are.
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:44.960
But in our case in our case, the beauty is the merchant knows, gets the first party data, so they they're happy about it.
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:47.519
Create a true ground prop for the merchants.
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.799
Yeah, I mean the dream scenario for perplexity is in some multimodal input.
00:19:53.039 --> 00:20:04.319
They just kind of go from answering a question to buying all in the same query, and you just enable it in the back end, and they find a way to win in the when the commerce happens, right?
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:06.960
That that's I can s I can see that happening.
00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:10.319
So you talked a little bit about you getting turned down by VCs.
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.400
All of us have gone through that journey.
00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:18.319
So, first of all, have you raised money from institutions or or is it self-funded?
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:28.640
Yeah, we no we for the pre seed uh we did our own funding and some friends and family and and they did they put the money.
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:33.519
Then we did a seed round where some uh institutional investors put money as well.
00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:38.000
And then now we're going through series A because we just we just signed our lead today.
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:38.799
Fantastic.
00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:39.920
Congratulations.
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:40.880
Thank you.
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:41.759
Thank you.
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:49.519
So we're going through that and some bringing in some strategics as well, and they predict, you know, participating in this round.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:51.119
So that's where we're going through.
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:54.160
So you you've gone through all of it, right?
00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:59.519
Angel Seed, Series A, and they all have different experiences because they're all in different stages.
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:08.400
And I would probably classify your journey as more likely thing to happen to most startups where you know you you take five years.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:11.839
But there's this misnomer that funding will happen quicker.
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.160
And sometimes these blips, right?
00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:23.759
There's an AI blip now, as it relates to funding, there's an infusion of cash at earlier stages than achieving product market fit or go to market.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:27.839
It seems like you're enjoying the ride with your perplexity announcement.
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:32.240
Uh has it completely changed the way investors now perceive you?
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:35.839
Uh now that you've done this five-year journey already to get there?
00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:36.400
Yes.
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.559
They do see the resilience of the product, right?
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:47.680
That we have seen through all these different and we being now right time, right place with the right product.
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:57.680
So so that is a big difference with the amount of inbound VC requests that comes every day to me to meet is is is uh.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:00.319
Right.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.559
So uh there is so much uh interest on the BC community now.
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.319
Uh which which is I'm happy uh that they're reaching out.
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:24.160
But at the same time, uh my idea now is okay, how do we build this in a robust way that the company continues to scale as these network merchant network we're bringing in and and build a sustainable business, right?
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:25.839
So that's where God focusing.
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:26.400
Yeah, right.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:27.440
My energies now.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:28.720
Right, right, right.
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:30.079
I think that's a key, right?
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:36.559
You I think your journey prior to the startup, you've seen how what it takes to build a company.
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:40.480
I think building a sustainable startup is uh important corner.
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:42.240
It's not quick wins.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.240
Uh the many no's you've faced, I'm sure, has has cr has hardened you.
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.519
So for our audience, right, let me sort of uh bring this together.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:51.759
What would be your advice?
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:59.680
You've been in big companies, you now have a uh a longer journey where you're enjoying the thorns, as you said.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:06.640
What uh uh advice do you give so that they can season their thorns and start enjoying them?
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:16.000
So one thing is if you if you when I started the journey, I didn't anticipate I'm gonna go through this much pain, right?
00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:18.559
So that's a very uh number one thing.
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:24.400
I anticipated there will be ups and downs, but not to this level of pain I would go.
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:37.519
So so for any entrepreneur whoever is going through that uh or starting the journey, always keep in mind that uh, you know, the journey is going to be extremely painful.
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:45.440
Some lucky ones may get an easy ride, and but ninety ninety-eight percent goes through a very difficult journey.
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.319
So we mentally be prepared for that.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:24:18.799
Uh I I was talking to a gentleman yesterday, uh and he quoted this example of this general who got uh I think Scott's tale or uh a general who was uh captured in Vietnam War, and uh he taught this philosophy to his teammates who were all captured in the Vietnam War, and said, if you keep your mindset that somehow the US government is gonna come and rescue us, keep that optimism.
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:26.240
However, also keep in mind every day the brutality of the the the torture is gonna keep increasing.
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:31.759
When you keep that in the mindset, you will stay strong and you will be able to see this thing.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:40.000
So whoever followed that principle were able to come out alive because eventually, you know, you have rescued them.
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:46.160
But who are the people who thought, okay, today I went through so much suffering, it won't be that much tomorrow.
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.160
Fail to live, fail to survive.
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:51.200
The same way, an entrepreneur's journey is very hard.
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:54.880
So you have to anticipate tomorrow is going to be even harder.
00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:01.279
So if you have that mindset, if it gets easier, that's fine.
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:04.480
It is going to be a very hard journey, right?
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:06.480
There will be so much rejection.
00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:11.839
And uh be able to handle that, and for that you need to have a proper support system.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:18.240
Especially your spouse, your children, your family, they have to be supportive of that.
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:24.400
If you don't have the family support, it makes it you know, it's impossible to do that.
00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:28.480
And also financially, how are you situated?
00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:34.640
That also becomes a a m another attribute to this.
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:39.680
You withstand for a period of time with low income or no income.
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:40.799
Can you right?
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:44.240
So so all these factors you need to take into consideration.
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:46.640
And and be realistic.
00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:58.319
Don't don't be living in utopian plannings, oh yeah, I will make start making money in six months, one year, and life is going to be, you know, uh all hunky dory is not the case.
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.640
Just keep keep that in mind.
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:07.759
And if you can stay resilient, and and then that's one, but also be open to pivot at different points.
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:19.920
Because you may start with an idea and it may or may not work, which means be open, saying, okay, when you talk to customers or VCs or different friends or whomever, they may say, Hey, have you thought about this or that?
00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:21.200
Be open to it.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.240
So it doesn't mean you have to take it and run with it.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:28.559
But at least is there a real angle to it to your product?
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:32.240
Can you maybe make that work if this is not working?
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:33.279
Right?
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:38.720
So that's kind of mindset if we operate with, somehow you can figure it out.
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:43.920
Gumar, I think resilience is the word that comes to mind for me, what you're saying.
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.480
You gotta you gotta stay strong and wake up in the morning every day.
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:52.960
Yeah, you summarize it.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:55.440
Go ahead.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:58.480
And get punched on your stummy every day.
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:02.400
Still, you know, you wake up with a smile and just do it the next day.
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:13.599
I can I can tell you, you know, Sirish and I went through uh the journey at the same time in our lives, and uh the punches were harder, but when you get that win, it is sweet.
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:19.599
You know, you forget all those things, and the win is very tasty, even though it's very short, but still tasty.
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:21.279
So thank you very much.
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:29.200
It's it's uh it was uh awesome that the way you brought it all together and uh good luck with Firmly Shirish, uh closing closing frozen.
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:29.759
Yeah, I know.
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:31.039
He fell off.
00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:32.880
Okay, maybe he'll come back here.
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:35.519
We can stitch it together in a in a second or so.
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:36.880
He he should be coming back here.
00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:42.240
But as you said, Gauri, every win, little wins, keeps you going further.
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:43.759
Right?
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:44.000
Yeah.
00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:49.920
You have so many downs, you still have those little wins that keeps you going further.
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:50.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:59.119
And that's one another thing I feel is that as an entrepreneur, you have to have a broader vision of thinking.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:27:59.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:01.039
That is very critical.
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.920
See, the the the thing I uh tell young entrepreneurs today, right?
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:13.920
Whatever success you had prior, right, was awarded through other attributes that came with it, right?
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:17.440
Say at microsoft.com was an attribute.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:27.119
Everybody you wrote an email, everybody wrote back to you because you have that at Microsoft.com or you know at Samsung.com, whatever the case may be, right?
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:30.799
You say Kumar at firmly.io or AI.
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:32.079
It's like, what?
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:34.960
First of all, spam catches it.
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:37.680
Then you gotta get over that and come back.
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:44.000
And uh so I think uh I think the humbling uh journey that you go through is very important.
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:51.359
The other thing I tell them is this is uh this is an eight to ten year journey, and everybody is going along with it.
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:54.000
Most importantly, as you pointed out, your family.
00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:56.880
Because see, they're used to a particular lifestyle, right?
00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:03.839
They they are not willing to just uh give up all that lifestyle just because you are you have decided you'll do a startup.
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:08.960
They've been going to the Disney World and they've been going on uh beach vacations, etc.
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:14.319
Suddenly, like, ah, you know, I I I'm not uh I'm not going doing that.
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:14.960
No, no, no.
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:16.160
They wanted to still do that.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:18.960
So now that Shirish is back, Shirish, back to you.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:19.920
All right, great.
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:22.559
Sorry I lost my internet connection, but I'm back.
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:36.880
Thanks so much for doing this uh interview with us and uh glad to hear that you're now getting VCs chasing you as opposed to the other way around, and all the best in uh with uh your fundraise and all the best with your partnerships.
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:37.200
Thank you.
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:38.160
Thank you, Sharish.
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:38.559
Thank you.
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:40.000
It was so pleasure talking.
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:45.599
Thank you for listening to our podcast from Startup Exit, brought to you by Dai Seattle.
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:50.079
Assisting in production today are Isha Jain and Mini Varma.
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:55.440
Please subscribe to our podcast and rate our podcast wherever you listen to them.
00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:57.359
Hope you enjoyed it.
00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:13.279
In today's episode, Kumar Santil, the founder and CEO of Firmly, shares his story from the corporate world to entrepreneurship.
00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:26.719
Discover how Kumar identified a global problem faced by merchants and developed an innovative solution to simplify integration with new shopping platforms like Instagram Shop and TikTok Shop.
00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:40.159
His story is one of resilience and vision, overcoming skepticism from VCs to create a merchant-centric platform that empowers businesses to thrive in the evolving e-commerce landscape.
00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:54.079
Welcome to the Startup to Exit podcast, where we bring you world-class entrepreneurs and VCs to share their hard-earned success stories and secrets.
00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:56.960
This podcast has been brought to you by Thai Seattle.
00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:01.359
Thai is a global nonprofit that focuses on fostering entrepreneurship.
00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:15.120
We encourage you to become a TIE member so you can gain access to these programs.
00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:20.480
To become a member, visit www.seattle.tai.org.
00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:29.439
Hi everyone, my name is Shiresh Dadkurney.
00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:32.879
I am very pleased to welcome today Kumar Santil.
00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:35.760
He's part of our startup spotlight series.
00:01:35.920 --> 00:01:38.400
Kumar is an accomplished technologist.
00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:43.840
He's worked for well-known companies like Microsoft, Groupon, Samsung, and many others.
00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:48.159
And he now has a start startup called firmly.ai.
00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:49.280
So welcome, Kumar.
00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:50.319
Thank you, Suresh.
00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:56.319
So let's get started by asking the most important question, which is you've been in the corporate world for quite some time.
00:01:56.480 --> 00:02:00.400
What made you decide suddenly to go uh start a company?
00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:01.760
Oh, that's a great question.
00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:08.960
So, I mean, I've done my fair share of time in the corporate world and uh I started seeing the same thing over and over again.
00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:12.560
And I said, okay, this is good enough tax I paid.
00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:18.000
But more importantly, I started uh seeing this opportunity that I just couldn't pass.
00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:30.240
Because uh when I was at Samsung or even prior companies, a lot of partners would come and pitch different ideas to me, saying, hey, I can help sell your products uh different places.
00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:34.159
But then the moment I ask what do I have to do, I have to integrate with them.
00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:43.919
I've done my fair share of integration, but then I said, Man, I cannot keep infinitely integrating uh uh and maintain it and operate it, right?
00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:45.439
It's it's untenable.
00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:49.680
So and then also I realized it's just not going to be it's gonna be a global problem.
00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:51.520
Every merchant is gonna have the same problem.
00:02:51.680 --> 00:03:01.360
Because new shopping experiences are gonna be built by different parties, new things are gonna come, and merchants will not be able to have a mechanism to go and integrate with them.
00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:11.199
And on these new channels that are coming up, that at that time it was more of Instagram shop, TikTok shop, and and the few other players that were coming up.
00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:13.599
And it's just not tenable.
00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:21.120
And every merchant now is trying uh figuring out how do I go and set up a shop there and how do I enable selling and all of that.
00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:24.000
It was it was a it's a pain as a merchant.
00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:34.080
So that's when I started thinking, okay, if we can solve this problem for the merchants, then it would make sense for everyone, right?
00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:39.039
So that's how I started thinking and realized, okay, it's it's now or never.
00:03:39.280 --> 00:03:42.240
I should do it full-time or not about this, right?
00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:45.599
So that's how I left my job and jumped into this opportunity.
00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:47.680
So when did you start uh firmly?
00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:49.520
In uh late 2020.
00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:50.000
Okay.
00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:51.680
So you've been working here for quite some time.
00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:52.479
Yes, I am.
00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:54.319
This is a hard problem I'm solving.
00:03:54.479 --> 00:04:02.400
People uh when I initially started talking about this, especially VCs laughed at me, saying, This is the dumbest idea I've ever heard.
00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:04.080
Why would anybody do this?
00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:07.120
Right.
00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:10.080
So but then there are some brave souls.
00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:16.319
They got they were they saw the vision I was looking at and then took a bet on me.
00:04:16.480 --> 00:04:16.639
Right.
00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:18.000
Then we built the product.
00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:18.480
Right.
00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:20.560
So what is your what is your solution?
00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:26.879
So how do you solve this uh this problem where you know merchants have to integrate with all these different platforms?
00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:28.240
Yeah, great question.
00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:32.800
So as a merchant, if uh I know how to operate my website, right?
00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:39.759
And the website has all kinds of capabilities when it talks to its backend, it uses some sort of APIs.
00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:44.240
Some sites don't even have APIs, but it has a mechanism to talk to its back end.
00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:56.879
So we came up with a platform that can talk to a website without merchant making any change, either leveraging their existing APIs or whatever other means they use to talk to it natively.
00:04:57.040 --> 00:05:01.600
So that as a merchant, I don't have to make any code change for for us, right?
00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:06.879
And then we provide a standardized API for our partners to integrate.
00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:13.360
If you take Perplexity, for instance, or others, they just integrate into our one standard API.
00:05:13.759 --> 00:05:17.199
Behind the scenes, you can connect to any number of merchants.
00:05:17.360 --> 00:05:18.800
Whatever we are connected to.
00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:28.480
They don't have to worry about, okay, what platform this merch merchant A is on, what platform merchant B is on, whether that merchant has API or not.
00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:30.399
None of that they need to worry about.
00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:39.120
That's the abstraction layer we built so that now it it gives easier access to all these merchants in our network to talk to.
00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:44.560
So that they can build a good shopping experience and they don't have to be a merchant of record.
00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:45.839
That's a big challenge.
00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:51.600
Then the previous avatar of Instagram, TikTok, Sharp World, they are the merchant of record.
00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:52.079
Right?
00:05:52.160 --> 00:05:54.319
So what does it mean, a merchant of record?
00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:58.959
Which means they charge the credit card and they collect all the first party data.
00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:04.560
And then normally what they do is they give a shipping address to the merchant to ship the product.
00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:09.439
But as a merchant, if I just receive a shipping address, it is useless to me.
00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:10.480
Yes, okay, great.
00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:15.920
I got an order, I can I get something out of it, but I cannot build a lifetime value with that customer.
00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:16.319
Right.
00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:16.800
Right?
00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:22.879
So if I cannot build lifetime value over a period of time, it's just a matter of time, then I'm gonna go out of business.
00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:23.279
Right?
00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:27.199
So that's why I built this as a merchant-centric solution.
00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:34.160
Keep the merchant as the merchant of record so that they can get the first-party data and they can build lifetime value.
00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:34.560
Right?
00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:38.639
If the merchants are successful, all the ecosystem will be successful.
00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:43.040
If the merchants are not successful, you know, this ecosystem won't exist.
00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:43.360
Right.
00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:43.839
Right.
00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:50.800
That's why we built this solution as a merchant-centric to make sure they get the first party data and they remain the merchant of record.
00:06:51.040 --> 00:06:51.199
Right.
00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:52.160
That's what we built.
00:06:52.319 --> 00:06:52.480
Right.
00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:58.000
The standardized API, now people can build all kinds of interesting apps.
00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:04.000
Now you would see I we are actually talking to so many of those with AI-powered shopping apps.
00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:06.720
Perplexity, JGBD are the prominent ones.
00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:11.519
There are a few that's been in works that they are going to announce soon.
00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:14.160
Uh we've been working with them as well.
00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:16.000
These are going to keep coming.
00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:17.519
More and more are going to come, right?
00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:29.360
So very niche apps are going to come uh, you know, for health and beauty or for fitness or different things where niche apps are going to come and they all need connectivity to the merchant.
00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:38.079
It's impossible for them to go and talk to every merchant and connect to them and and and and uh you know get remunerated for the orders they send.
00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:39.600
All of this we're solving.
00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:40.000
Right.
00:07:40.240 --> 00:07:41.839
How many merchants do you have in your platform?
00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:45.120
So we have about 11 million merchants now network.
00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:45.920
11 million.
00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:48.000
So you have figured out that's why it took you five years.
00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:49.759
Yes, exactly.
00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:54.560
Because you had to figure out how to integrate with that many uh merchants.
00:07:54.800 --> 00:07:55.040
Yes.
00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:55.759
I see.
00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:56.480
Got it.
00:07:56.720 --> 00:08:04.000
And on the um partner side, you said you have uh relationship with uh perplexity that you announced.
00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:07.199
Can you tell us more about that uh relationship and how it'll work?
00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:08.160
Yeah, definitely.
00:08:08.319 --> 00:08:13.120
I mean, for us, we are going to be powering their checkout experience primarily, right?
00:08:13.279 --> 00:08:18.560
So if you go to Perplexity and search for running shoes, right, and they they render the results.
00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:21.680
That is basically their their secret sauce, right?
00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:25.360
However, they recommend whatever products they are recommending.
00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:31.600
But when you click the buy with pro, then they bring up the experience where you can buy the product.
00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:33.279
Right?
00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:36.240
So that is going to be part by us.
00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:37.679
We haven't live yet.
00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:38.720
We're not done live yet.
00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:39.200
We're right.
00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:39.360
Right.
00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:41.120
They're finishing up the integrations.
00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:50.799
When we go live, we will bring real-time inventory price and product information and all of that real time for perplexity to render a nice UX.
00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:55.840
And then once a customer says I want to buy it, they call our API to place the order.
00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:57.679
And it's all in situ.
00:08:58.000 --> 00:09:03.759
Um means that the end user is still within the perplexity uh UI.
00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:07.440
They don't have to leave the uh UI and go to the merchant's website.
00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:08.159
It's all done.
00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:10.879
Just like with Instagram shopping or TikTok shopping.
00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:11.600
Exactly.
00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:14.480
But the merchant remains the merchant of record, right?
00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:16.399
That's the big big difference.
00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:22.080
And the way that uh you make money, both you and Perplexity make money is through affiliate phase?
00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:22.639
Yeah.
00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:24.080
That would be the model.
00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:27.120
But right now, Perplexity is not planning to charge the merchant.
00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:28.559
Maybe down the line they might.
00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:31.840
I mean, we don't know that how and how they're gonna do it.
00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:33.759
Right now, they're not charging anybody.
00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:34.159
Right.
00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:35.759
They're just taking as a fees for.
00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:36.320
Okay.
00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:37.279
Okay.
00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:38.480
Over to you, Gabri.
00:09:38.799 --> 00:09:42.480
Kumar, so now that you've been on this journey for five years, right?
00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:49.840
Um, as you just shared with us, was there was there been uh moments where you have said, why are we doing this?
00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:51.919
And because you've been laughed at.
00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:55.279
You've I'm sure you cried with somebody too about this.
00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:57.360
So how did you overcome that?
00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:06.480
It'll be useful for for our audience uh who are all startup entrepreneurs who think that they build something and they achieve product market fit.
00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:11.279
My core question is your journey took a while for you to achieve product market fit.
00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:12.159
And yes.
00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:15.440
So you asked, Why am I doing this for a while?
00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:17.919
How did you know that you achieved product market fit?
00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:20.320
Okay, so that's a great question, Gabriel.
00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:25.679
I mean, uh when I talk to entrepreneurs, we could relate to that empathy, the pain they go through.
00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:28.399
You know, uh I'll answer your question before that.
00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:30.320
I'll give an analogy, okay?
00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:32.159
This would be very interesting.
00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:38.559
Because uh one of my spiritual masters he gave an analogy how the life is in the material world.
00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:40.000
We are all like camels.
00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:45.120
The camel goes through a desert and it doesn't eat for drink for days.
00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:49.600
But then when it finds some bushes to eat, it just gazes that, right?
00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:54.000
It may the bushes may be thorny.
00:10:54.080 --> 00:11:05.600
So it it takes a bite at it, chews it, and the thorns actually poke the tongue of the camel, and the tongue starts bleeding, and it starts thinking, ah, this thorn is so tasty.
00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:10.639
This uh this is great, ah, tasty.
00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:12.080
This pain is more tasty.
00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:18.080
So that's how uh it this entrepreneur journey is it's so much pain, right?
00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:22.480
Uh every day, you know, wake up, so much rejections.
00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:33.039
You pitch, you know, so many VCs, they come, they laugh at you, and some may say, yeah, it's a great idea, but you know, I still can't put the money in, and so on, so much.
00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:36.960
But then there is one soul that comes in and says, Yes, I'm taking it better.
00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:38.639
I'll put the money, right?
00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:42.399
That gives you an energy saying, okay, now I want to do it.
00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:46.240
He is believing in me or she is right, uh believing in me or do it.
00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:47.679
So that was the journey.
00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:50.559
But early on, it was it was very difficult.
00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:55.279
For first two years, I would say first three years was extremely difficult.
00:11:55.600 --> 00:12:13.120
Because uh anytime I uh I go to pitch to either my potential customers or to VCs, the first question I will get is our first half an hour of an hour meeting will go on me explaining why we are not, help me why what's the difference between you and fast and bold.
00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:14.720
That's the conversation I'll have.
00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:20.080
And I have to spend half an hour just explaining no, I'm not, that I'm doing something different.
00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:23.600
And then they'll say, okay, now I understand what you're doing.
00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:27.360
But then I'm I'm still not following why anybody needs this product, right?
00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:35.679
So because customer can come to the site and transact why this uh offset uh ability is needed.
00:12:35.840 --> 00:12:41.519
But then uh there is a one customer we got, uh I cannot name them because it's under NDA.
00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:43.679
Uh we got it about two, two and a half years ago.
00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:47.919
So we cannot I cannot speak about them, but it's uh it's a large social platform.
00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:53.519
They got slammed because of Apple's uh transparency tracking situation.
00:12:53.759 --> 00:13:00.720
So when we pitched our idea saying, listen, we can enable the checkout within your environment, they loved it.
00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:02.480
They said, okay, this is great.
00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:03.600
I want a partner.
00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:04.000
Right?
00:13:04.080 --> 00:13:06.240
So that's our first breakthrough we got.
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:08.559
But even before that, I'll take a step back.
00:13:08.799 --> 00:13:10.960
I'm building a two-sided marketplace.
00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:18.159
Because I need merchants to start with, and then the other side, I need the platforms to work with, to use my product.
00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:23.759
So when I went to the merchants, they said uh they asked me, okay, the idea is great, where can you help sell?
00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:25.360
I said, I don't have one.
00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:27.519
I said, okay, when you have one, come to me.
00:13:27.759 --> 00:13:30.399
Then I said, okay, let's go find platforms.
00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:33.679
We pitched to the platforms and they said, okay, how many merchants do you have?
00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:34.480
I don't have one.
00:13:34.639 --> 00:13:36.559
I said, okay, when you have one, come to me.
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:39.840
So this chicken and egg situation was really a hard problem.
00:13:40.399 --> 00:13:45.039
That's where it took two, two and a half years for us to break through that log jam.
00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:51.919
Meanwhile, we tried different ideas, different ways to sort of get this going, but those solutions really didn't work.
00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:57.759
I mean, the core foundational product was there, but how do where do you submit this experience?
00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:01.360
Somewhere I should be able to help the customers buy stuff.
00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:03.039
We could we couldn't craft.
00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:11.360
So when this opportunity came and we were able to make that experience for 50 brands, they recruited the brands for us at that point.
00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:22.240
And when we went live with those 50 brands and thousands of transactions started happening real time and with a really low latency, they were pretty impressed.
00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:24.559
They said, okay, this is a solid product.
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:24.960
Right?
00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:30.639
And then the ROAS boost they got were like 20 to 40% boost in ROAS.
00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:33.519
That's when we said, okay, now we have a product.
00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:39.519
We got the product market fit, we got a real product, there is, you know, opportunity here.
00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:44.080
And then uh from that point on, then slowly we got perplexity deal.
00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:51.360
And then the other s challenge I had was because we were working under NDA, we couldn't talk about it outside.
00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:54.000
So we were in in the shadows all along.
00:14:54.399 --> 00:15:01.120
So once we worked on a partnership with Perplexity and the PR came up, that gave us the real breakthrough.
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:02.720
Right?
00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:06.480
So everybody started no, okay, this is a great concept.
00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:10.399
And also people until now didn't realize this is even possible.
00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:11.440
Right?
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:13.039
Many tried and they failed.
00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:15.919
So they thought they gave up, saying, okay, this is not possible.
00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:30.080
But we took our time to understand the difficulties or the complexities involved in integrating with the merchant and and and building a robust platform at a very low latency.
00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:32.720
Because you can build the platform, you can connect it.
00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:37.919
You know, you and I can sit together over a weekend and maybe we might be able to connect one or two merchants.
00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:42.320
But building at a scalable model with a very low latency is extremely hard.
00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:44.399
That's the problem we cried we solve.
00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:45.120
Right, right.
00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:50.159
Our entire platform runs in 330 plus cities around the world.
00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.879
So we introduce less than 50 millisecond latency in our car.
00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:59.759
So very highly low, high, highly scalable, low latency solution we've got.
00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:02.159
So that way any partner comes in.
00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:05.679
The first question usually they ask is, Oh, how about latency?
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:07.200
And okay, 50 milliseconds.
00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:08.399
Okay, great, 10.
00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:11.759
Right, right.
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:15.519
So this um two-sided marketplace that you built, right?
00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:23.039
Shirish has written a book on marketplaces and also built a startup and exited successfully on marketplaces.
00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:28.720
We've had Nick Husar from Offer Up on our podcast, you know, who also have built a two-sided marketplace.
00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:31.360
You needed sellers and buyers all come together.
00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:40.000
So in the go-to-market, one of the challenges that you face in a, as you pointed out, in um in a two-sided marketplace is the velocity.
00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:45.279
You got to move the flywheel enough that both sides feel it's worth coming there.
00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:52.480
Did you employ any particular tactics like you made it, you said you made it easier for the merchants?
00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:57.279
You did you kind of say, aha, this will be the one that unlocks?
00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:04.559
You know, on the one hand, you have those who would like to connect to you, and external forces may have helped you in there.
00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:07.279
But the merchant part of it, they're selling now.
00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:12.079
Yeah, you bring some benefits unclear yet till you deliver it.
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:18.000
What was there was any one or two unlock moments in that two-sided marketplace, especially on the merchant side?
00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:32.000
On the merchant side, what I I do see is that they are seeing this this macro level, this agent e-commerce is a big landscape that they have no clue on how to enter into it.
00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:41.680
So when a partner comes and says, hey, by the way, I can enable it into this world, and you don't have to do anything other than just saying yes, that's a music to them.
00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:44.079
That's an unlock for moment for them.
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:46.160
Because they are all running clueless.
00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:51.359
And it's like, okay, how do I enable selling in perplexity or or other places?
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:52.160
How do I do this?
00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:54.160
Yeah, everybody's talking about agent e-commerce.
00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:55.599
What does it mean actually?
00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:57.039
How does it manifest?
00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:58.880
That clarity nobody had.
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:04.559
After Perplexity launched and showed a user experience, people said, ah, okay, this is possible.
00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:06.720
Okay, now how do I be part of that?
00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:13.359
So a lot of merchants now are proactively reaching out to us, saying, Hey, I want to be part of your network.
00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:14.319
How do I do it?
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:15.519
What should I do?
00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.079
So that that is creating a flywheel effect for us.
00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:25.359
And then there's uh that that's one one direct feed that's coming in.
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:33.200
The other one is I'm go these partners who want to work with us, like need connectivity to the merchants, they do have brand relationships.
00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.559
They're saying, hey, I'll introduce you to a bunch of brands.
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:37.920
Can you connect to them?
00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:40.559
I because that's not my focus area.
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:42.160
I'm focused on something else.
00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:43.839
You go do that work for me.
00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:44.720
I'm happy.
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:49.279
So that's feeding next level of merchant for your force.
00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:59.119
And the third one is more strategic, where the payment gateways, they are looking at saying, okay, we need to have an agency commerce story.
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:04.559
Instead of me going and building a team and trying to figure this out, all of this, can we partner with firmly?
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:10.640
Because anyway, they are helping me keep my business because we're not disrupting their business.
00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.000
We're enablers for them.
00:19:12.319 --> 00:19:18.319
So can we work with them to make sure we're part of that agent e-commerce ecosystem?
00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:22.640
So there are different forces are feeding into our network.
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.240
That's so that's how we're creating a flywheel effect and pretty bullish effect.
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:26.720
Got it.
00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:34.160
Seems like you you also you may have an opportunity where restaurants have the same challenge with uh delivery apps, right?
00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:37.759
Because they they they don't know who who their customers are.
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:44.960
But in our case in our case, the beauty is the merchant knows, gets the first party data, so they they're happy about it.
00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:47.519
Create a true ground prop for the merchants.
00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.799
Yeah, I mean the dream scenario for perplexity is in some multimodal input.
00:19:53.039 --> 00:20:04.319
They just kind of go from answering a question to buying all in the same query, and you just enable it in the back end, and they find a way to win in the when the commerce happens, right?
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:06.960
That that's I can s I can see that happening.
00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:10.319
So you talked a little bit about you getting turned down by VCs.
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.400
All of us have gone through that journey.
00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:18.319
So, first of all, have you raised money from institutions or or is it self-funded?
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:28.640
Yeah, we no we for the pre seed uh we did our own funding and some friends and family and and they did they put the money.
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:33.519
Then we did a seed round where some uh institutional investors put money as well.
00:20:33.680 --> 00:20:38.000
And then now we're going through series A because we just we just signed our lead today.
00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:38.799
Fantastic.
00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:39.920
Congratulations.
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:40.880
Thank you.
00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:41.759
Thank you.
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:49.519
So we're going through that and some bringing in some strategics as well, and they predict, you know, participating in this round.
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:51.119
So that's where we're going through.
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:54.160
So you you've gone through all of it, right?
00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:59.519
Angel Seed, Series A, and they all have different experiences because they're all in different stages.
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:08.400
And I would probably classify your journey as more likely thing to happen to most startups where you know you you take five years.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:11.839
But there's this misnomer that funding will happen quicker.
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:14.160
And sometimes these blips, right?
00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:23.759
There's an AI blip now, as it relates to funding, there's an infusion of cash at earlier stages than achieving product market fit or go to market.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:27.839
It seems like you're enjoying the ride with your perplexity announcement.
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:32.240
Uh has it completely changed the way investors now perceive you?
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:35.839
Uh now that you've done this five-year journey already to get there?
00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:36.400
Yes.
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:40.559
They do see the resilience of the product, right?
00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:47.680
That we have seen through all these different and we being now right time, right place with the right product.
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:57.680
So so that is a big difference with the amount of inbound VC requests that comes every day to me to meet is is is uh.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:00.319
Right.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.559
So uh there is so much uh interest on the BC community now.
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.319
Uh which which is I'm happy uh that they're reaching out.
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:24.160
But at the same time, uh my idea now is okay, how do we build this in a robust way that the company continues to scale as these network merchant network we're bringing in and and build a sustainable business, right?
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:25.839
So that's where God focusing.
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:26.400
Yeah, right.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:27.440
My energies now.
00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:28.720
Right, right, right.
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:30.079
I think that's a key, right?
00:22:30.319 --> 00:22:36.559
You I think your journey prior to the startup, you've seen how what it takes to build a company.
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:40.480
I think building a sustainable startup is uh important corner.
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:42.240
It's not quick wins.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.240
Uh the many no's you've faced, I'm sure, has has cr has hardened you.
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.519
So for our audience, right, let me sort of uh bring this together.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:51.759
What would be your advice?
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:59.680
You've been in big companies, you now have a uh a longer journey where you're enjoying the thorns, as you said.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:06.640
What uh uh advice do you give so that they can season their thorns and start enjoying them?
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:16.000
So one thing is if you if you when I started the journey, I didn't anticipate I'm gonna go through this much pain, right?
00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:18.559
So that's a very uh number one thing.
00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:24.400
I anticipated there will be ups and downs, but not to this level of pain I would go.
00:23:24.559 --> 00:23:37.519
So so for any entrepreneur whoever is going through that uh or starting the journey, always keep in mind that uh, you know, the journey is going to be extremely painful.
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:45.440
Some lucky ones may get an easy ride, and but ninety ninety-eight percent goes through a very difficult journey.
00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.319
So we mentally be prepared for that.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:24:18.799
Uh I I was talking to a gentleman yesterday, uh and he quoted this example of this general who got uh I think Scott's tale or uh a general who was uh captured in Vietnam War, and uh he taught this philosophy to his teammates who were all captured in the Vietnam War, and said, if you keep your mindset that somehow the US government is gonna come and rescue us, keep that optimism.
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:26.240
However, also keep in mind every day the brutality of the the the torture is gonna keep increasing.
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:31.759
When you keep that in the mindset, you will stay strong and you will be able to see this thing.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:40.000
So whoever followed that principle were able to come out alive because eventually, you know, you have rescued them.
00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:46.160
But who are the people who thought, okay, today I went through so much suffering, it won't be that much tomorrow.
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.160
Fail to live, fail to survive.
00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:51.200
The same way, an entrepreneur's journey is very hard.
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:54.880
So you have to anticipate tomorrow is going to be even harder.
00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:01.279
So if you have that mindset, if it gets easier, that's fine.
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:04.480
It is going to be a very hard journey, right?
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:06.480
There will be so much rejection.
00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:11.839
And uh be able to handle that, and for that you need to have a proper support system.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:18.240
Especially your spouse, your children, your family, they have to be supportive of that.
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:24.400
If you don't have the family support, it makes it you know, it's impossible to do that.
00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:28.480
And also financially, how are you situated?
00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:34.640
That also becomes a a m another attribute to this.
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:39.680
You withstand for a period of time with low income or no income.
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:40.799
Can you right?
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:44.240
So so all these factors you need to take into consideration.
00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:46.640
And and be realistic.
00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:58.319
Don't don't be living in utopian plannings, oh yeah, I will make start making money in six months, one year, and life is going to be, you know, uh all hunky dory is not the case.
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:00.640
Just keep keep that in mind.
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:07.759
And if you can stay resilient, and and then that's one, but also be open to pivot at different points.
00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:19.920
Because you may start with an idea and it may or may not work, which means be open, saying, okay, when you talk to customers or VCs or different friends or whomever, they may say, Hey, have you thought about this or that?
00:26:20.079 --> 00:26:21.200
Be open to it.
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.240
So it doesn't mean you have to take it and run with it.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:28.559
But at least is there a real angle to it to your product?
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:32.240
Can you maybe make that work if this is not working?
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:33.279
Right?
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:38.720
So that's kind of mindset if we operate with, somehow you can figure it out.
00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:43.920
Gumar, I think resilience is the word that comes to mind for me, what you're saying.
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.480
You gotta you gotta stay strong and wake up in the morning every day.
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:52.960
Yeah, you summarize it.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:55.440
Go ahead.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:58.480
And get punched on your stummy every day.
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:02.400
Still, you know, you wake up with a smile and just do it the next day.
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:13.599
I can I can tell you, you know, Sirish and I went through uh the journey at the same time in our lives, and uh the punches were harder, but when you get that win, it is sweet.
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:19.599
You know, you forget all those things, and the win is very tasty, even though it's very short, but still tasty.
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:21.279
So thank you very much.
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:29.200
It's it's uh it was uh awesome that the way you brought it all together and uh good luck with Firmly Shirish, uh closing closing frozen.
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:29.759
Yeah, I know.
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:31.039
He fell off.
00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:32.880
Okay, maybe he'll come back here.
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:35.519
We can stitch it together in a in a second or so.
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:36.880
He he should be coming back here.
00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:42.240
But as you said, Gauri, every win, little wins, keeps you going further.
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:43.759
Right?
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:44.000
Yeah.
00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:49.920
You have so many downs, you still have those little wins that keeps you going further.
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:50.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:59.119
And that's one another thing I feel is that as an entrepreneur, you have to have a broader vision of thinking.
00:27:59.440 --> 00:27:59.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:01.039
That is very critical.
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.920
See, the the the thing I uh tell young entrepreneurs today, right?
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:13.920
Whatever success you had prior, right, was awarded through other attributes that came with it, right?
00:28:14.160 --> 00:28:17.440
Say at microsoft.com was an attribute.
00:28:17.680 --> 00:28:27.119
Everybody you wrote an email, everybody wrote back to you because you have that at Microsoft.com or you know at Samsung.com, whatever the case may be, right?
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:30.799
You say Kumar at firmly.io or AI.
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:32.079
It's like, what?
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:34.960
First of all, spam catches it.
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:37.680
Then you gotta get over that and come back.
00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:44.000
And uh so I think uh I think the humbling uh journey that you go through is very important.
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:51.359
The other thing I tell them is this is uh this is an eight to ten year journey, and everybody is going along with it.
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:54.000
Most importantly, as you pointed out, your family.
00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:56.880
Because see, they're used to a particular lifestyle, right?
00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:03.839
They they are not willing to just uh give up all that lifestyle just because you are you have decided you'll do a startup.
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:08.960
They've been going to the Disney World and they've been going on uh beach vacations, etc.
00:29:09.279 --> 00:29:14.319
Suddenly, like, ah, you know, I I I'm not uh I'm not going doing that.
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:14.960
No, no, no.
00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:16.160
They wanted to still do that.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:18.960
So now that Shirish is back, Shirish, back to you.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:19.920
All right, great.
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:22.559
Sorry I lost my internet connection, but I'm back.
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:36.880
Thanks so much for doing this uh interview with us and uh glad to hear that you're now getting VCs chasing you as opposed to the other way around, and all the best in uh with uh your fundraise and all the best with your partnerships.
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:37.200
Thank you.
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:38.160
Thank you, Sharish.
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:38.559
Thank you.
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:40.000
It was so pleasure talking.
00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:45.599
Thank you for listening to our podcast from Startup Exit, brought to you by Dai Seattle.
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:50.079
Assisting in production today are Isha Jain and Mini Varma.
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:55.440
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00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:57.359
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