WEBVTT
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Welcome to StartupRed.io, your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German
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startup scene with news, interviews, and live events.
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Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from StartupRed.io,
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your startup podcast, YouTube blog, and internet radio station from Germany,
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Austria, and Switzerland, bringing you today, ta-da,
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another entrepreneur here who
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has a very, very interesting story to tell from the big city of Wildau.
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Am I right, Alex?
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You're completely right, Joe. You guys have been located in Berlin.
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I've seen registered there 2019.
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How did you move out to Wildau?
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So whenever you do big hardware, you need a lot of space.
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And Berlin is a crowded, packed city, and you wouldn't find that kind of location,
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a workshop in the city center.
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Hence, we had to move outside the city, and Brandenburg just has a lot of good
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places, conveniently located,
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and also cheaper rent, which is not something you should give as easily as a
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low-liquidity startup. I see.
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Given the picture, most people will only listen to this as an audio podcast
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or listen to the radio station.
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But the people who are not seeing this, we may tell that you have a very big
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warehouse in the background.
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Yes. So I'm sitting in one of our warehouses. We have two. This one is 1,300 square meters.
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And this is where we have portly storage, but also the R&D facility.
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So we are developing our chargers here.
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And this is also the space we need. We have forklift. We have a crane.
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We have doors that are eligible for trucks to come in and offload.
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So this is really something that you wouldn't expect from a regular startup,
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but rather from a big hardware producing company. A lot of toys for the good boys.
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1,200 square meter for our American audience, that's almost 13,000 square feet.
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Now we got the conversion out of the way. Maybe I had a little help from the internet.
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Alex, we may tell our audience that this is the first interview we are doing
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with the startup that at the time of the recording has been officially insolvent.
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But you guys have been rescued.
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It's already, as we say in Germany, in trocken and tusha.
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And so it's already a sealed deal. But we have to wait a little bit for the
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publication of this interview, around two weeks until it becomes official.
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That will be an interesting part of the story. But let us first talk a little
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bit about you, because you are a pretty interesting person.
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Because, as always, we link your LinkedIn profile here.
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I've seen a lot of Shanghai in your CV pretty early on. How did this happen?
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So I was lucky enough to be born to a family that moved a lot internationally
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and also brought to China.
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So I spent my high school years in Shanghai.
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And this is a time or let's say at that age between 14 and 18 is something where
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you make a lot of memories and also where your personality gets shaped.
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And this is growing up internationally and seeing this dynamics of the Chinese market back in the day.
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This was something that shaped me and also had a left a pretty deep impression
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on what can be done if you have the will,
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if you have the means also to start something big and you can dream big and
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your dreams may also come true.
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So this is something that Shanghai and China, that dynamic of the market really left in me.
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I'm wondering, because we talked before about different experiences from being
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in China, did you bring like any habits from China with you?
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For example, preferring tea over coffee or something?
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For me personally, it was that I really love hot pot.
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Fortunately, there's a restaurant here in Frankfurt.
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Yeah, hot pot, I mean, the cuisine, definitely. I cook Chinese at home.
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This is something I still love. And I think something in business,
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a habit is I always take business cards with two hands.
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This is something I still do because that is a polite way in Asia to do so,
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hand over and accepting business cards. This is what I still do.
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I see. I see. Uh-huh. So there is a lot of interesting stuff about you.
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We have been admitting to each other that we have the usual suspects in our
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CV. For example, I see...
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Working for Munich Re, working for Big Four Consultancy,
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working at Bosch, and then getting into an association as project manager,
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and then getting more into renewable energy and to the founding of Me Energy here in January 2018.
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Can you take us through this journey, through this ride?
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Yeah, sure. So during my studies, I was always eager to start something.
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And there's also a connection to China because one of the first ventures I did
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on my own was Fuyu Baobei, which translates to honey or, let's say,
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my small precious baby, sort of.
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This is something that I started on, which was an export for milk,
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powder and baby products. So I levered my connection already even early in my
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study days because I always wanted to be independent.
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I wanted to make my own money, not rely on my parents. This was a main driver also in my studies.
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And this was fairly successful. It was sort of from just a scandal that was
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back in the day that China had problems having with milk powder.
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And there was a scandal that pesticides were found. and hence there was a market
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all of a sudden for European and American milk powder that was now demanded in China.
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So this seized the opportunity and started this business together with friends I still had in China.
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And this was the first, let's say, foot I set into the entrepreneurial space.
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It was only me in the beginning, then later on I hired two students,
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so it was nothing big, but still I could make a living And it felt good to have
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to earn your own money and be independent in that sense.
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At the same time, I mean, I'm a German, and Germans, especially your family,
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tend to be rather conservative.
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So they push you towards getting a real job.
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And real job in German, translated from German, means, okay,
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go into a big company, have a secure job.
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And this is what, especially my dad, was always, let's say, setting or having
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the path laid out for me. This is what you should do, son.
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So that's what I also tried. I mean, I was always, okay, I thought,
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okay, I don't know everything by now. Why not try? I'm still young.
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So I tried working at KPMG, one of the big fours, and I worked in M&A,
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which was an interesting time, also intense, learned a lot, so really steep learning curve.
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But I figured out, okay, this is not something I could see myself doing for
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a long time. And so I stepped foot into another space. So tried out,
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okay, something completely different.
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And that was going into the automotive industry, working at Bosch.
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So this was, for me, something that was not motivated monetarily,
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but something that was also motivated in the sense that let's try out the big
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enterprise. Let's try out a secure job.
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Let's try out shaping something bigger, shaping something that is the transition
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to sustainable mobility, because that was a time when e-mobility was really in the cradle.
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Where Tesla had his first Roadster just released, BMW had his i3.
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So this was something that was also pushing me and said, okay,
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there is something new on the horizon coming.
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That's something where I see, okay, I could also, I can be part of this transition.
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And one of the major players in this transition is Bosch. It's a large automotive
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supplier, so I had good access to this, the company, and hence said,
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okay, let's work in R&D at the forefront of development of this new technology.
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And so I did battery and fuel cell research. Bosch.
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Um, this was, um, established, I mean, the work was, was satisfying and also,
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uh, learning so much about this technology.
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However, being such a small wheel in such a large organization,
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such a large machinery, that was something that was frustrating to me.
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But having that access or having access to that technology can also,
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this sparks a lot of creative thinking because you're surrounded by a lot of brilliant minds.
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You're surrounded with a lot of opportunities that just lie around on the floor
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in such a big organization and a lot of free time to do so, to think about this.
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And this is also, let's say, the starting point where me energy or the thinking
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about me energy also originated is at the time at Bosch, where I also had my
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various experiences with e-mobility and the technology behind.
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You've been saying great ideas lying around on the floor in big companies.
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I would be personally, if I would be an executive, very interested how to harvest
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those ideas, but that'll be a completely different recording here.
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Let's go a little bit to the company, the energy with a very unique concept.
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Was there like a specific moment or challenge in your career that made you think,
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you know what, the world really needs that?
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Bioethanol-powered fast chargers. Can you tell, first, we may tell the audience
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what your product is and then how you got this spark.
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Okay, so what we developed at Mee Energy or what we developed and now we are
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having in the market is off-grid fast charging stations.
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So a charging station that produces its own electricity from bioethanol.
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So a renewable, sustainable energy carrier that is liquid, that can be sourced
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literally anywhere in the globe, and that is always refilled into the stations.
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We always have the means, independent of where you are, independent of any infrastructure
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to fast charge any kind of vehicle.
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And this is especially used in areas where the power grid is not strong enough
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to support fast charging, because fast charging is a real constraint on the grid.
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Just to give the audience a bit of an idea. So you can charge one Tesla or you
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can power a 20 story building.
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It's about the same amount of energy you use for this process.
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So if you then think about charging stations as 20-story buildings,
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you have the sort of a picture of how much the power grid has to handle in the
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future and what a charging park actually means.
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So this is why or this is really why off-grid charging is a puzzle piece for
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the transition to e-mobility.
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But I think we'll tap into that space later on.
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But having this picture in mind, there was really one eureka moment or one moment
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where I had this problem, where I experienced the constraints of the power grid.
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And that was when I was working at Bosch. So this is also why great ideas lie
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around in large organizations, because people like me make experiences.
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You are out on a test drive with an electric car with little to no range.
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And you approach a charging station and that charging station is currently turned off.
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Why? Because it was winter. The power grid was at its limit.
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And the first thing at peak power you turn off is charging stations.
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So I couldn't charge at this charging station when I needed to.
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It was winter. It was cold. And I had no other.
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I couldn't reach another charger. So it was 2016, which also says a lot about
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the development of e-mobility back in the day. So there was little to no charges anywhere.
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And I had to go around in this small village in the Swabian Alps and ask for
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someone to give me his household plug so I can recharge my BMWs.
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And this was, I rang on random doors. I talked to a lot of strangers that looked
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at me like an alien. So what are you and why are you ringing on my door, first of all?
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Second of all, why are you driving an electric car? I mean, Swabia is the heart
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of the automotive industry in Germany.
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And it's all combustion. So this is why, this was an experience I had where
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that made me think about a lot why and how we can make this transition happen.
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And as I said before, I was really passionate about this new development,
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the sustainable mobility.
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And this gave me another spin on this transition. So where are the bottlenecks?
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This is everything in the service. Always find this pain point.
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And this pain point was definitely the brand infrastructure because that cannot
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sustain our charging needs in the future because we want to have convenient mobility.
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We don't want to, like me at that time, stay for six, seven,
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eight hours at a household plug to continue the journey.
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You want to have a sort of splash and dash with 10 minutes, 30 minutes.
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That's what we want to have in recharging as well.
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And the problem will not be the cars, will not be the hardware,
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but the problem will be the infrastructure behind, which is the power grid.
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And this is what I realized in this moment. And then as an engineer,
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well, you're prone to or programmed to find solutions to problems and not just
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see them as a pretty picture somewhere lying around.
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And if you have eight hours in a car to think about, then, well,
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that's the first starting point to find solutions. And that led me eventually
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to bioethanol-powered off-grid fast chargers.
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You are an engineer by trade. how
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did your technical expertise shape your approach to building a startup?
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Did it give you an edge or did you feel like a student again navigating the world of business?
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So, I mean, I think the most important skill you learn as an engineer is that
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you have a large problem and you can break down this large problem into small
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problems, solve these small problems and then set the puzzle back together to
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have the big problem solved,
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independent of your trade.
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However, I mean, knowing I'm a chemical engineer by training and knowing about
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energy flows, about physics in general,
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also about chemistry, battery chemistry and all those chemical reactions that
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happen when you use bioethanols.
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That also gave us an edge in the beginning because the concept was built on
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these basic calculations.
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Later on, I focused more on business topics.
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So, yes, as a startup founder, you tend to be a bit too naive.
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You tend to be a bit overconscious and then take on things,
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tackle things where you easily feel overwhelmed, where you easily feel like
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a student that has to navigate the business world. Definitely.
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But this is also the beauty of it. And this is also because you grow out of
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these challenges that you have to navigate.
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And I was lucky enough to navigate all of those challenges, including dooming
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insolvency over the past years and came out just fine.
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So I think on this, it is worth trying definitely.
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And this is the steepest learning curve you can ever take is trying to be an entrepreneur.
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You already talked about the insolvency you had to file in summer of 2024 for insolvency.
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This must have been one of the most challenging days.
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Of your life um can you take us back to the days and the weeks and month leading
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up to it what was it like what was the hardest part and what have you learned as a founder as leader.
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So in general i mean this is the moment where your dreams are shattered i guess
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is what everybody things of instantly.
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However, when you, I mean, you come also from a lot of, I mean,
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a lot of hope that you had, a lot of work you put in, because we were in a financing round back then.
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We, and the financing round due to, let's say, market climate plus a few shareholder
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commitments that weren't honored in the end fell apart.
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And this is something that's also on a personal level, had a lot of frustration coming with this event.
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But let's say the quality one has as a good entrepreneur, I think, is to never give up.
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And if you're lying in the dust, you stand up again and you fight again.
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And this is, and this is what I want to say to all of those founders out there,
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I mean, especially in Germany, this is considered as a failure in insolvency, but it's not.
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And it's also a chance because this gives you a chance to restructure the company.
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It gives you a chance to get access to new fundings, to new funds you wouldn't
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even consider that are out there just thinking about your regular startup investments.
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And this is what then happened. So I was lucky enough that one of our shareholders
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was well connected in this space and had the right consultants to help us with the process.
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And in the very first meeting I remember today, it is like they said,
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OK, this is not the end. This is the beginning.
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It's a great chance to save the company and save everything with it.
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You just have to work as hard as you did in the past, but now on a different
00:19:35.687 --> 00:19:39.107
path. And so this is what we did.
00:19:39.647 --> 00:19:47.827
And there are a lot of companies and funds that are specialized on complex slash distress situations.
00:19:48.247 --> 00:19:50.147
That's what it's called, the terms.
00:19:50.627 --> 00:19:54.727
And those are the companies we then approached. We approached MLA funds.
00:19:55.387 --> 00:20:00.327
We approached also, let's say, regular operating businesses,
00:20:00.327 --> 00:20:03.327
our customers and partners.
00:20:04.407 --> 00:20:12.207
And then also really rapidly had a feeling okay this is not the end this is
00:20:12.207 --> 00:20:15.287
a new beginning because we saw a light of the end of the tunnel because there
00:20:15.287 --> 00:20:16.587
was a lot of interest flowing in,
00:20:17.727 --> 00:20:24.227
from something that i mean from something that even in dire market conditions.
00:20:25.553 --> 00:20:29.193
There is a need for this technology that everybody immediately understood.
00:20:29.853 --> 00:20:36.853
So then instead of having this new financing round with a lot of multiples and
00:20:36.853 --> 00:20:38.553
a lot of startup investments,
00:20:38.773 --> 00:20:43.013
we found something that is now, let's say, good for the long term and found
00:20:43.013 --> 00:20:47.013
a new shareholder that bought the company.
00:20:48.013 --> 00:20:53.753
And with this, we are set for the future. We are on a long term growing path.
00:20:53.753 --> 00:20:57.773
It will not be triple or quadruple your revenues every year,
00:20:58.073 --> 00:20:59.713
but rather double. And this is fine.
00:21:00.713 --> 00:21:05.053
So this is, it's not a start. I mean, it's still a startup approach sort of,
00:21:05.593 --> 00:21:10.733
but not full throttle, but rather look for more long-term solution.
00:21:10.933 --> 00:21:15.293
And this is also something that this situation, let's say, sparked or triggered.
00:21:16.533 --> 00:21:19.973
So your your recharging solution
00:21:19.973 --> 00:21:23.553
viewed by bioethanol is basically it
00:21:23.553 --> 00:21:29.793
looks from the outside like an overseas container um i assume you choose that
00:21:29.793 --> 00:21:35.953
dimension on purpose so it can be easily shipped where basically inside the
00:21:35.953 --> 00:21:41.553
bioethanol is processed into energy and outside you have a plug and you can fast charge your car.
00:21:41.913 --> 00:21:44.053
Would that be an adequate description?
00:21:44.773 --> 00:21:47.973
Yes. I mean, from the front, it looks like a charging station,
00:21:47.973 --> 00:21:50.553
and then there is a big container around.
00:21:50.893 --> 00:21:55.013
And this is really – so it makes space for the interior, which is the tank,
00:21:55.313 --> 00:21:58.733
then the generator, and then the hardware for fast charging.
00:21:59.513 --> 00:22:03.653
And, yes, we designed it on purpose so it fits with parking space.
00:22:03.653 --> 00:22:05.673
At the same time, it's easily shippable.
00:22:06.533 --> 00:22:08.173
So, yes, well described.
00:22:09.113 --> 00:22:14.933
You already said me, so it's a team effort, me, energy.
00:22:15.433 --> 00:22:19.453
Phonic stories like that are usually packed with stuff like drama,
00:22:19.713 --> 00:22:21.653
breakthrough, and coffee overdoses.
00:22:21.893 --> 00:22:27.853
Could you share a little bit, a few behind-the-scenes anecdotes from the very early days?
00:22:28.113 --> 00:22:35.933
Yes. I mean, in the early days, it's all about, I mean, trying to fill that
00:22:35.933 --> 00:22:38.053
idea with actual content.
00:22:38.393 --> 00:22:40.893
So because when you start, you usually have a small prototype.
00:22:40.893 --> 00:22:42.493
You don't have, you have a presentation.
00:22:42.793 --> 00:22:46.793
And then there was this big moment coming for us. We had our first funds raised.
00:22:46.993 --> 00:22:52.033
And then we had a big display and an opening ceremony for one of our chargers
00:22:52.033 --> 00:22:57.273
here, which were all the local politicians were invited. and we had also the
00:22:57.273 --> 00:23:00.933
head of a local state here coming to the inauguration.
00:23:01.493 --> 00:23:03.733
And the problem is we worked all night.
00:23:04.812 --> 00:23:09.492
For the past week. I mean, it was 24-7 shift, so to say.
00:23:12.012 --> 00:23:19.212
But we weren't finished because that day we expected cars and vehicles to charge.
00:23:19.372 --> 00:23:23.932
For example, a Mercedes truck, we did not ever charge before.
00:23:24.132 --> 00:23:28.612
And we knew, okay, whenever we have an unknown vehicle, there can be problems.
00:23:29.412 --> 00:23:34.472
So we tried everything, but we were not ready at the time of the presentation.
00:23:34.792 --> 00:23:41.632
So what we did was then we rented those vehicles or let's say one vehicle the
00:23:41.632 --> 00:23:46.772
day before, which was an e-truck, and then placed two software engineers inside
00:23:46.772 --> 00:23:48.732
this e-truck for the presentation.
00:23:48.732 --> 00:23:54.432
Had just a small data cable coming out into charger to make sure an overview,
00:23:54.792 --> 00:24:00.152
if anything goes wrong, you can then, let's say, override it and do a manual
00:24:00.152 --> 00:24:03.712
mode for charging instead of having this automated one.
00:24:04.172 --> 00:24:09.572
This was then, funnily enough, was also spotted by the local press,
00:24:09.592 --> 00:24:16.852
which thought it was hilarious that there are two people in the truck with a small desk,
00:24:17.212 --> 00:24:21.032
two monitors, and a laptop, which was then the picture of the day.
00:24:21.232 --> 00:24:22.952
Some even didn't display the head of state.
00:24:23.192 --> 00:24:30.012
Some only displayed the two software engineers inside the truck with our charger in the back.
00:24:31.472 --> 00:24:37.652
You already said, what was the other picture besides the two engineers? The other one was?
00:24:37.852 --> 00:24:40.932
The head of state inaugurating our charger.
00:24:41.292 --> 00:24:46.652
That was at the time and still is at the time of recording Olaf Scholz. So he was also visiting.
00:24:46.912 --> 00:24:49.292
I think that that is pretty cool.
00:24:50.612 --> 00:24:54.492
I mean, this was two different events, though. I mean, it was a local head of state of Brandenburg.
00:24:55.012 --> 00:25:00.292
When Olaf Scholz visited, everything was working well. I mean,
00:25:00.612 --> 00:25:01.812
back then we were operational.
00:25:02.092 --> 00:25:04.592
Everything was in the market. And I mean, the E-Arc trusses,
00:25:04.712 --> 00:25:08.232
so the Mercedes trucks, those are the ones we charge on a regular basis.
00:25:08.272 --> 00:25:13.192
So this was nothing to worry about when he visited. It was more of the security
00:25:13.192 --> 00:25:16.672
aspect surrounding his visit that were more challenging.
00:25:17.232 --> 00:25:23.692
I see, I see. I attended a few events, he was also present and then it's a completely different game.
00:25:24.892 --> 00:25:28.932
You started in the e-mobility space and there's of course no easy task.
00:25:29.592 --> 00:25:34.452
Did you ever have doubts about the feasibility of your ID?
00:25:35.699 --> 00:25:39.279
In general, one always has doubts, I think.
00:25:39.459 --> 00:25:45.359
The question is whether you have the better arguments that those are only doubts
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:48.499
and the solution is too good to fail.
00:25:48.979 --> 00:25:52.679
And this was for me always the case because I guess, especially in the beginning
00:25:52.679 --> 00:25:57.819
or whenever you do fundraising, also throughout the years, is you get a lot
00:25:57.819 --> 00:25:59.539
of rejections. You get a lot of no's.
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:05.919
And this can spark doubt. But at the same time, well, I was always convinced.
00:26:06.219 --> 00:26:09.319
And I mean, the customer feedback then later came and said, OK,
00:26:09.419 --> 00:26:11.259
this is a solution that is really needed.
00:26:13.199 --> 00:26:16.899
And if you have this customer feedback, if you have the also the success in
00:26:16.899 --> 00:26:21.939
the market, this is something that makes it easier to overcome these doubts.
00:26:22.299 --> 00:26:26.319
Because, yes, we are the we're the only ones that ran in this direction.
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:30.079
This is completely opposite to what everybody else was doing. everybody
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:33.319
else was doing great charging then maybe battery buffered okay
00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:36.319
we're saying okay this is still not enough we will
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:39.179
face those problems because the
00:26:39.179 --> 00:26:43.479
power demand is so high and hence we
00:26:43.479 --> 00:26:46.679
said okay this solution is needed and in the
00:26:46.679 --> 00:26:49.439
end well this success proves
00:26:49.439 --> 00:26:55.279
us right at least markets wise we have so many large companies as customers
00:26:55.279 --> 00:27:02.919
we would never have imagined in the beginning but companies like Mercedes or
00:27:02.919 --> 00:27:08.219
MAN and many many more they are relying on our charging solution every day.
00:27:09.419 --> 00:27:14.439
You already said you ran in a very different direction.
00:27:15.479 --> 00:27:18.919
Your offering was distinct fast charging without
00:27:18.919 --> 00:27:22.039
a grid connection could you explain how
00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:28.659
this model worked and who was your ideal customers because my understanding
00:27:28.659 --> 00:27:39.499
is you basically rented out those containers is that right partly yes so what comes with off-grid.
00:27:40.849 --> 00:27:46.109
Is also a new means of financing. But let's take away a step back.
00:27:46.249 --> 00:27:48.749
So first of all, I mean, nobody's really buying a charging station.
00:27:49.069 --> 00:27:53.829
What they're buying is a fully charged car or a fully charged truck or bus.
00:27:54.049 --> 00:27:57.629
So this is basically what they want to achieve. So they want to have a service
00:27:57.629 --> 00:28:01.129
that is as convenient as possible to recharge their vehicle.
00:28:02.229 --> 00:28:08.029
And the classical way is, OK, you build your own charger that is then recharging
00:28:08.029 --> 00:28:14.929
this. And this has a lot of multi-stakeholder processes, long permits you need, and so forth.
00:28:15.109 --> 00:28:19.349
So what we did is say, okay, we need a shortcut for this.
00:28:19.709 --> 00:28:23.729
We need a shortcut that lowers your investment, that gives you a guaranteed
00:28:23.729 --> 00:28:26.969
business case, and you have reliable costs.
00:28:27.189 --> 00:28:32.389
And ideally, you don't even have to invest, but you have recurring costs,
00:28:32.609 --> 00:28:38.589
a monthly cost, nothing to down pay or any upfront payment. And this is what
00:28:38.589 --> 00:28:40.089
we do with off-grid charging.
00:28:40.509 --> 00:28:45.329
So we have a charger here that doesn't need any construction work at the site.
00:28:45.329 --> 00:28:48.689
So you can simply place a container and start charging three hours later.
00:28:49.749 --> 00:28:54.109
Plus, you can finance it through leasing options or just simply rent it.
00:28:54.809 --> 00:28:57.489
And this is the game changer here because for the first time,
00:28:57.569 --> 00:29:02.129
this is charging as a service where you have a lot of usually a lot of upfront investment.
00:29:03.569 --> 00:29:10.049
And this is not needed with our solution. So, we provide here this one-stop-shop
00:29:10.049 --> 00:29:13.089
solution for charging as a service.
00:29:15.289 --> 00:29:20.749
With the takeover of your investor, will this model change in the future?
00:29:21.749 --> 00:29:24.009
No, this will definitely not change.
00:29:25.089 --> 00:29:32.769
The investor is looking forward to also grow this model and expand more internationally.
00:29:32.769 --> 00:29:39.449
So, so far, we were really focused on Germany and we had the first chargers installed in Poland.
00:29:39.749 --> 00:29:43.409
But we are looking forward to also an international expansion,
00:29:43.849 --> 00:29:50.229
especially with this new shareholder to the US and also some Southeast Asian
00:29:50.229 --> 00:29:55.369
markets, which are desperately looking forward to more sustainable and reliable
00:29:55.369 --> 00:29:57.489
power production and fast charging.
00:29:57.489 --> 00:30:00.089
That is awesome. You always give me the cues.
00:30:00.849 --> 00:30:04.969
Sustainability and innovation were at the core of me energy.
00:30:05.269 --> 00:30:09.329
How did you balance the environmental aspect and the profitability?
00:30:10.737 --> 00:30:17.117
So we are in a market where not being sustainable is not an option because in
00:30:17.117 --> 00:30:22.277
general, what people look for when buying electric vehicles is a more sustainable solutions.
00:30:22.517 --> 00:30:26.837
Also, a lot of companies are driven by ESG reporting, by lowering their own
00:30:26.837 --> 00:30:33.557
carbon emissions, either by legislation or if one of their major customers demands,
00:30:34.097 --> 00:30:35.757
for example, carbon neutral transport.
00:30:35.997 --> 00:30:39.997
This is the case with a lot of OEMs in the automotive sector.
00:30:39.997 --> 00:30:44.197
They demand their logistics partners to go for carbon neutral transport so that
00:30:44.197 --> 00:30:46.137
the OEMs lower their emissions themselves.
00:30:47.137 --> 00:30:51.897
And so sustainability is really at the core of our business offering.
00:30:52.077 --> 00:30:59.697
And also to maybe give the audience one or two facts about sustainability here is that our chargers,
00:30:59.777 --> 00:31:06.437
they actually are less or they have less emissions per kilometer or kilowatt
00:31:06.437 --> 00:31:07.977
hour than their solar panel.
00:31:08.937 --> 00:31:17.517
So we produce energy in Germany, in Northern Europe, and even in Poland, France, and so forth.
00:31:17.697 --> 00:31:21.037
We produce it more sustainably than a solar panel.
00:31:21.817 --> 00:31:27.157
We are almost at a level of onshore wind, and offshore wind is by far the best.
00:31:28.477 --> 00:31:33.777
But we are there. And this is what was also driving me and is still driving
00:31:33.777 --> 00:31:35.737
the team, that with every charger we deliver,
00:31:36.097 --> 00:31:43.957
we contribute to a cleaner and greener and more sustainable future that where
00:31:43.957 --> 00:31:46.077
you can still drive your car,
00:31:46.237 --> 00:31:51.257
where you can still get your food delivered and all the goods delivered by truck.
00:31:52.317 --> 00:31:57.297
Because I mean, otherwise, continuing this fossil way is not an option for a
00:31:57.297 --> 00:31:58.617
lot of people, at least in my generation.
00:31:59.997 --> 00:32:05.257
We may add that ESG means environmental, social, and governments.
00:32:05.697 --> 00:32:10.817
It's a shorthand for investment principles that prioritize those aspects.
00:32:10.997 --> 00:32:13.657
Governments meaning corporate governance.
00:32:14.357 --> 00:32:17.417
That was something I just had to throw in. Joe.
00:32:18.737 --> 00:32:24.777
As we already discussed, your chargers were visited by Chancellor Olaf Scholz.
00:32:24.937 --> 00:32:30.037
That is quite an endorsement. Did this kind of recognition create a momentum
00:32:30.037 --> 00:32:33.537
for your business or was it just a symbolic boost?
00:32:34.577 --> 00:32:42.277
Let's say it sparked a lot of talks with existing and prospect customers.
00:32:42.817 --> 00:32:48.157
So in that sense, it was always so we were in the news. We had a lot of coverage.
00:32:48.577 --> 00:32:54.477
And this always sparks a lot of interest, either to warm up the conversation
00:32:54.477 --> 00:32:59.797
about follow up orders Or if someone was at the brink of ordering,
00:33:00.157 --> 00:33:06.457
maybe then tilted towards the way that they're actually ordering instead of refusing the offer.
00:33:06.637 --> 00:33:13.377
And this is what was there. But I would say the biggest boost it gave here and
00:33:13.377 --> 00:33:14.477
confidence for the team.
00:33:15.117 --> 00:33:21.757
So having this, having such a visit and also him, I mean,
00:33:22.297 --> 00:33:26.657
let's say I always said to the team, It doesn't really matter what you think
00:33:26.657 --> 00:33:31.737
of this person, but think of him as the most influential or the influencer in
00:33:31.737 --> 00:33:34.237
Germany with the most reach you have.
00:33:34.777 --> 00:33:39.957
And he is visiting this company. I like his characterization. I love it.
00:33:40.457 --> 00:33:47.117
And everybody in the end was, I mean, and also this whole event coming with a lot of security.
00:33:47.357 --> 00:33:50.657
I mean, there were docs checking this. They were, let's say,
00:33:50.957 --> 00:33:53.977
they came to this facility for random checks twice before.
00:33:54.317 --> 00:33:59.137
A lot of police, we had to clean out everything which is sharp,
00:33:59.377 --> 00:34:04.337
everything which is metal, everything that can fall from the sky, from the ceiling.
00:34:05.192 --> 00:34:08.652
Everything had to be cleaned. So it was a huge event, but in the end,
00:34:08.752 --> 00:34:13.172
it was worth it because everybody, after all, felt, okay, we are on a good mission.
00:34:13.512 --> 00:34:21.232
What we do is valuable, and this is the small spark or this small additional
00:34:21.232 --> 00:34:25.352
push the team needs to continue on,
00:34:25.512 --> 00:34:30.152
and I think this was the most valuable that came out of this visit.
00:34:30.552 --> 00:34:35.352
All the customer endorsement, all the conversations he had, the nice pictures,
00:34:35.572 --> 00:34:36.552
yes, I mean, that's nice.
00:34:36.712 --> 00:34:42.312
I mean, my mom was really proud, yes, with the pictures, but this is not what you do it for.
00:34:42.532 --> 00:34:46.772
What you do it for is really, or what we did it in the end for was the team
00:34:46.772 --> 00:34:48.532
and the spirit that came out of it.
00:34:49.792 --> 00:34:53.332
It's an awesome bonus if your mom is proud of you. Yes.
00:34:54.352 --> 00:34:58.652
Yeah, I mean, I mean, having having, let's say, a satisfied or a proud parent
00:34:58.652 --> 00:35:04.992
is better than having those parents that were, let's say, that question always
00:35:04.992 --> 00:35:06.852
your career, because, I mean,
00:35:07.212 --> 00:35:13.732
this is this is also maybe what in the end have also my dad make peace with
00:35:13.732 --> 00:35:16.592
me being an entrepreneur and having this, let's say,
00:35:16.992 --> 00:35:20.952
rather rollercoaster lifestyle than a regular nine to five job at Bosch.
00:35:20.952 --> 00:35:27.592
Let's have a little break for our advertisers, partners, and we'll back in just 60 seconds.
00:35:29.572 --> 00:35:37.052
Okay, now we've talked a lot about you, your current company, your origins.
00:35:37.352 --> 00:35:40.992
Let's go a little bit into the future outlook.
00:35:41.992 --> 00:35:46.252
For me personally, the insolvency came as a surprise. As you said,
00:35:46.472 --> 00:35:52.952
some commitments from shareholders were not met. So you didn't have an option
00:35:52.952 --> 00:35:55.492
to do anything else than to file for insolvency.
00:35:55.592 --> 00:36:02.152
But if you could rewind time, what would you do differently to steer the company
00:36:02.152 --> 00:36:04.252
onto a different course?
00:36:05.052 --> 00:36:13.072
So rewinding time, I mean, being a lot wiser now is sooner setting structures
00:36:13.072 --> 00:36:19.812
for scaling that don't require increasing costs that much.
00:36:20.792 --> 00:36:28.312
Translating into our terms is, so we in the beginning delivered a lot of products,
00:36:29.532 --> 00:36:35.692
for pilot projects, for example, where they were in the end rather costly to keep up.
00:36:37.032 --> 00:36:42.632
So if I would be wise, I was like, okay, do less, do that more focused.
00:36:43.932 --> 00:36:49.752
And not increase your costs as fast. Coming from a time, and also when we did
00:36:49.752 --> 00:36:54.972
our last financing round, was still the time of little to no interest rates,
00:36:55.272 --> 00:36:56.672
a lot of money in the market,
00:36:57.432 --> 00:36:59.692
and the only thing that mattered was growth.
00:37:01.384 --> 00:37:04.424
And so that growth at
00:37:04.424 --> 00:37:07.784
all costs and this mantra was also something that
00:37:07.784 --> 00:37:10.684
we had to listen to here because i mean those were our shareholders
00:37:10.684 --> 00:37:14.264
after all so it was growth at all costs and
00:37:14.264 --> 00:37:17.784
then we had growth at all costs but those costs
00:37:17.784 --> 00:37:21.564
were not sustainable and then especially in
00:37:21.564 --> 00:37:24.564
heavy regulated markets like germany um cutting
00:37:24.564 --> 00:37:27.344
those costs is something that at a certain
00:37:27.344 --> 00:37:30.604
point you cannot do anymore unless you
00:37:30.604 --> 00:37:33.804
do go for a full restructuring and so
00:37:33.804 --> 00:37:37.164
this is one lesson I'll take and the second one is choose
00:37:37.164 --> 00:37:41.544
your shareholders wisely I mean and even
00:37:41.544 --> 00:37:45.284
one day on the board they will not support you at all costs but rather you have
00:37:45.284 --> 00:37:51.284
to manage those relations and this is something that can be really time intense
00:37:51.284 --> 00:37:57.404
but this is also your role as a founder or as a CEO and this is something what
00:37:57.404 --> 00:38:00.744
I can only recommend is keep your shareholders happy.
00:38:01.424 --> 00:38:05.724
Don't keep them happy with any fancy presentations, but rather keep them happy
00:38:05.724 --> 00:38:10.124
with honest conversations and regular conversations, even if things don't look
00:38:10.124 --> 00:38:12.144
good. And then just ask them for advice.
00:38:12.584 --> 00:38:16.284
Maybe it's good advice. Maybe it's bad advice. But if they have the feeling
00:38:16.284 --> 00:38:20.924
they can help, they are more on board and more happy to help.
00:38:22.524 --> 00:38:27.424
Yes, always reminds me of two aspects. One of them is an article in TechCrunch
00:38:27.424 --> 00:38:31.724
that more investors have made startups fail than any market ever did.
00:38:31.964 --> 00:38:38.204
And the second one is that you should also, what we discussed with different
00:38:38.204 --> 00:38:41.784
interview guests in different dimensions, different aspects here,
00:38:41.924 --> 00:38:45.724
is you should always listen to your shareholders.
00:38:45.724 --> 00:38:49.804
Yes, you should manage the conversation because if you just go there,
00:38:49.944 --> 00:38:51.064
guys, everything is shit.
00:38:51.144 --> 00:38:55.584
I don't know what to do. You can be very sure your shareholders will walk out
00:38:55.584 --> 00:39:03.684
and look for a party to buy your company because they are interested in keeping
00:39:03.684 --> 00:39:05.944
and increasing their investment.
00:39:06.124 --> 00:39:09.364
So as you said, they will not support you at any costs.
00:39:13.625 --> 00:39:18.145
Going a little bit further, what advice would you offer to entrepreneurs looking
00:39:18.145 --> 00:39:25.545
to innovate in industries with heavy regulatory or infrastructure challenges like energy?
00:39:27.125 --> 00:39:32.505
So in general, I mean, for me, or what's still this or what also fuels this
00:39:32.505 --> 00:39:36.865
is, I mean, real change also comes from hardware.
00:39:36.865 --> 00:39:42.325
I mean, yes, software does a lot of good, and it's needed in a lot of areas.
00:39:42.325 --> 00:39:46.165
It will increase efficiency a lot, yes, but if you want to change big time,
00:39:46.305 --> 00:39:48.745
you have to go big, big meaning hardware.
00:39:49.485 --> 00:39:55.905
And so this is a hard issue to tackle because it's so capital intense,
00:39:56.145 --> 00:40:02.865
time to markets are long, and hence you need a long breath to withhold,
00:40:03.485 --> 00:40:07.725
and actually get to the market and then also be successful in the market.
00:40:08.585 --> 00:40:17.145
So what kind of advice I would give those is, well, don't forget why you're
00:40:17.145 --> 00:40:19.265
doing it or what are you doing it for?
00:40:19.425 --> 00:40:22.405
Because, I mean, you always have to have this vision because that will keep
00:40:22.405 --> 00:40:25.145
you going even if you get a lot of no's.
00:40:25.805 --> 00:40:30.985
Hardware infrastructure is not really something, a sexy topic for most investors,
00:40:30.985 --> 00:40:38.945
Even if they say there are technology agnostic or whatever euphemism they use,
00:40:39.485 --> 00:40:41.585
hardware is not usually the case they find sexy.
00:40:41.905 --> 00:40:46.985
So I would say try institutional investors.
00:40:47.625 --> 00:40:50.865
This is something that usually helps, especially in the early days.
00:40:51.845 --> 00:40:55.485
State supported loans, state supported subsidies.
00:40:55.485 --> 00:40:58.845
This is something that you go for. I mean, it's also heavily regulated,
00:40:59.125 --> 00:41:00.965
but it helps you not diluting too
00:41:00.965 --> 00:41:04.925
much in the early days and keep it as an attractive investment vehicle.
00:41:06.085 --> 00:41:11.685
And when it comes to, say, regulation, regulation in the beginning is a pain.
00:41:12.385 --> 00:41:14.405
Once you solved it, it's an advantage.
00:41:15.365 --> 00:41:20.905
So this is also something a lot of business models can come out from solving
00:41:20.905 --> 00:41:27.465
this legislation issue. For example, for us, we have a mobile unit.
00:41:28.724 --> 00:41:33.984
That is still a charging station. So we don't need any building permits, for example.
00:41:34.404 --> 00:41:40.424
We don't need to file for authorization at the local government to set up charging
00:41:40.424 --> 00:41:42.424
infrastructure as long as we are on private ground.
00:41:42.584 --> 00:41:46.104
We can just place it there, which is a perfect use case, for example,
00:41:46.224 --> 00:41:48.384
for rentals. You have an event, you have trade fair.
00:41:49.024 --> 00:41:53.024
We're there for one week and we're gone afterwards without leaving a trace.
00:41:53.624 --> 00:41:59.144
So this is really an advantage because we designed this product to adhere to
00:41:59.144 --> 00:42:03.204
all this legislational hurdles that we can now use.
00:42:03.724 --> 00:42:10.644
So it's always a barrier, legislation, but it can be also a market entry barrier
00:42:10.644 --> 00:42:13.424
for others. So you can take that as an advantage.
00:42:13.924 --> 00:42:20.164
That was already good advice. Finally, we get to the last official question.
00:42:22.164 --> 00:42:27.004
If a young startup founder asks you what's more important, have a groundbreaking
00:42:27.004 --> 00:42:31.384
idea, or building the right team? What would you say and why?
00:42:31.904 --> 00:42:36.924
I think most entrepreneurs would say the right team, and also me,
00:42:38.584 --> 00:42:41.664
because groundbreaking ideas exist a lot.
00:42:42.744 --> 00:42:48.244
90% is execution, and execution comes with the right people and the right team.
00:42:48.604 --> 00:42:55.384
So choose those that are willing to go or to fight and to go into battle with you.
00:42:55.384 --> 00:42:58.264
At the same time always are honest with
00:42:58.264 --> 00:43:01.464
you and they speak their mind because the last
00:43:01.464 --> 00:43:04.464
thing you can use in a startup
00:43:04.464 --> 00:43:07.944
is politics you don't want to have anyone not
00:43:07.944 --> 00:43:11.164
speaking their mind or acting a certain way not
00:43:11.164 --> 00:43:14.504
working towards the same goals because of some
00:43:14.504 --> 00:43:21.724
food a few that few they have with another party member or some form of deep
00:43:21.724 --> 00:43:26.264
down conflict so this is something i would always advice is choose the right
00:43:26.264 --> 00:43:32.104
team and usually a right team also finds the right idea that is a match for their skill set.
00:43:33.082 --> 00:43:36.642
That is good. And now the only inofficial question.
00:43:36.982 --> 00:43:42.462
You already said the team is very important. You're doing a restart with a bigger
00:43:42.462 --> 00:43:43.882
investor in the background.
00:43:43.982 --> 00:43:48.622
You are looking to expand globally, talking about the US and Asia.
00:43:49.302 --> 00:43:56.282
Are you actually looking for talent? Yes, we're always looking for talent in a lot of areas.
00:43:56.962 --> 00:44:00.342
Since we're a hardware startup, I mean, And also those engineers out there,
00:44:00.382 --> 00:44:04.642
which are not only software related, feel free to join here.
00:44:04.922 --> 00:44:10.662
Electrical engineering, mechanical engineering is needed, but also obviously software engineering.
00:44:11.262 --> 00:44:17.962
And also we always look for business talents when it comes to sales and marketing.
00:44:18.322 --> 00:44:24.242
Feel free to apply. We have a lot of challenges ahead of us and there's a growth
00:44:24.242 --> 00:44:28.122
path laid out. I mean, as I said, it's a more sustainable growth path,
00:44:28.162 --> 00:44:30.522
but this also needs a lot of new talent.
00:44:30.922 --> 00:44:36.542
So I'm looking forward to your applications or just reach out for original coffee.
00:44:36.922 --> 00:44:38.202
Happy to talk to you guys.
00:44:38.662 --> 00:44:44.782
As always, down here in the show notes, we will link your career website. Alex? Yes.
00:44:45.102 --> 00:44:49.002
Thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you. What people from the outside
00:44:49.002 --> 00:44:55.642
cannot tell, we're talking now for almost an hour with 45 minutes of recording. Thank you very much.
00:44:55.782 --> 00:44:58.062
You have been a great guest in a very difficult situation.
00:44:58.642 --> 00:45:02.942
Thank you for having me, Joe. It was a pleasure to be here. And hopefully one
00:45:02.942 --> 00:45:08.682
or two things or one or two experiences I shared leave a memory for your audience.
00:45:09.682 --> 00:45:11.182
Thank you. Thank you.
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:19.920
Music.
00:45:16.002 --> 00:45:25.522
That's all folks. Find more news, streams, events, and interviews at www.startuprad.io
00:45:25.622 --> 00:45:28.142
Remember, sharing is caring.
00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:41.674
Music.
00:00:05.197 --> 00:00:12.757
Welcome to StartupRed.io, your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German
00:00:12.757 --> 00:00:17.677
startup scene with news, interviews, and live events.
00:00:19.577 --> 00:00:23.457
Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from StartupRed.io,
00:00:23.677 --> 00:00:28.057
your startup podcast, YouTube blog, and internet radio station from Germany,
00:00:28.197 --> 00:00:30.757
Austria, and Switzerland, bringing you today, ta-da,
00:00:31.217 --> 00:00:33.577
another entrepreneur here who
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has a very, very interesting story to tell from the big city of Wildau.
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Am I right, Alex?
00:00:41.357 --> 00:00:46.537
You're completely right, Joe. You guys have been located in Berlin.
00:00:46.537 --> 00:00:48.897
I've seen registered there 2019.
00:00:49.577 --> 00:00:53.417
How did you move out to Wildau?
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So whenever you do big hardware, you need a lot of space.
00:00:58.777 --> 00:01:03.817
And Berlin is a crowded, packed city, and you wouldn't find that kind of location,
00:01:03.977 --> 00:01:06.157
a workshop in the city center.
00:01:06.377 --> 00:01:11.277
Hence, we had to move outside the city, and Brandenburg just has a lot of good
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places, conveniently located,
00:01:13.337 --> 00:01:19.917
and also cheaper rent, which is not something you should give as easily as a
00:01:19.917 --> 00:01:22.817
low-liquidity startup. I see.
00:01:24.037 --> 00:01:31.917
Given the picture, most people will only listen to this as an audio podcast
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or listen to the radio station.
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But the people who are not seeing this, we may tell that you have a very big
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warehouse in the background.
00:01:41.397 --> 00:01:49.357
Yes. So I'm sitting in one of our warehouses. We have two. This one is 1,300 square meters.
00:01:49.777 --> 00:01:54.957
And this is where we have portly storage, but also the R&D facility.
00:01:55.237 --> 00:01:57.677
So we are developing our chargers here.
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And this is also the space we need. We have forklift. We have a crane.
00:02:02.677 --> 00:02:08.297
We have doors that are eligible for trucks to come in and offload.
00:02:08.497 --> 00:02:11.917
So this is really something that you wouldn't expect from a regular startup,
00:02:12.077 --> 00:02:17.357
but rather from a big hardware producing company. A lot of toys for the good boys.
00:02:18.377 --> 00:02:26.017
1,200 square meter for our American audience, that's almost 13,000 square feet.
00:02:27.406 --> 00:02:32.786
Now we got the conversion out of the way. Maybe I had a little help from the internet.
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Alex, we may tell our audience that this is the first interview we are doing
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with the startup that at the time of the recording has been officially insolvent.
00:02:45.966 --> 00:02:48.286
But you guys have been rescued.
00:02:48.566 --> 00:02:52.126
It's already, as we say in Germany, in trocken and tusha.
00:02:52.166 --> 00:02:56.626
And so it's already a sealed deal. But we have to wait a little bit for the
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publication of this interview, around two weeks until it becomes official.
00:03:01.666 --> 00:03:06.086
That will be an interesting part of the story. But let us first talk a little
00:03:06.086 --> 00:03:10.986
bit about you, because you are a pretty interesting person.
00:03:11.146 --> 00:03:14.366
Because, as always, we link your LinkedIn profile here.
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I've seen a lot of Shanghai in your CV pretty early on. How did this happen?
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So I was lucky enough to be born to a family that moved a lot internationally
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and also brought to China.
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So I spent my high school years in Shanghai.
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And this is a time or let's say at that age between 14 and 18 is something where
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you make a lot of memories and also where your personality gets shaped.
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And this is growing up internationally and seeing this dynamics of the Chinese market back in the day.
00:03:49.166 --> 00:03:55.446
This was something that shaped me and also had a left a pretty deep impression
00:03:55.446 --> 00:03:58.966
on what can be done if you have the will,
00:03:58.966 --> 00:04:04.966
if you have the means also to start something big and you can dream big and
00:04:04.966 --> 00:04:06.786
your dreams may also come true.
00:04:07.066 --> 00:04:12.126
So this is something that Shanghai and China, that dynamic of the market really left in me.
00:04:12.726 --> 00:04:17.946
I'm wondering, because we talked before about different experiences from being
00:04:17.946 --> 00:04:21.806
in China, did you bring like any habits from China with you?
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For example, preferring tea over coffee or something?
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For me personally, it was that I really love hot pot.
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Fortunately, there's a restaurant here in Frankfurt.
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Yeah, hot pot, I mean, the cuisine, definitely. I cook Chinese at home.
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This is something I still love. And I think something in business,
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a habit is I always take business cards with two hands.
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This is something I still do because that is a polite way in Asia to do so,
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hand over and accepting business cards. This is what I still do.
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I see. I see. Uh-huh. So there is a lot of interesting stuff about you.
00:04:59.766 --> 00:05:07.786
We have been admitting to each other that we have the usual suspects in our
00:05:07.786 --> 00:05:10.006
CV. For example, I see...
00:05:11.130 --> 00:05:16.190
Working for Munich Re, working for Big Four Consultancy,
00:05:16.610 --> 00:05:25.610
working at Bosch, and then getting into an association as project manager,
00:05:25.810 --> 00:05:34.570
and then getting more into renewable energy and to the founding of Me Energy here in January 2018.
00:05:34.630 --> 00:05:38.030
Can you take us through this journey, through this ride?
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Yeah, sure. So during my studies, I was always eager to start something.
00:05:44.130 --> 00:05:48.370
And there's also a connection to China because one of the first ventures I did
00:05:48.370 --> 00:05:56.550
on my own was Fuyu Baobei, which translates to honey or, let's say,
00:05:57.030 --> 00:05:59.530
my small precious baby, sort of.
00:05:59.830 --> 00:06:04.650
This is something that I started on, which was an export for milk,
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powder and baby products. So I levered my connection already even early in my
00:06:10.670 --> 00:06:12.570
study days because I always wanted to be independent.
00:06:12.850 --> 00:06:18.670
I wanted to make my own money, not rely on my parents. This was a main driver also in my studies.
00:06:19.970 --> 00:06:26.330
And this was fairly successful. It was sort of from just a scandal that was
00:06:26.330 --> 00:06:30.850
back in the day that China had problems having with milk powder.
00:06:31.710 --> 00:06:36.010
And there was a scandal that pesticides were found. and hence there was a market
00:06:36.010 --> 00:06:42.410
all of a sudden for European and American milk powder that was now demanded in China.
00:06:42.810 --> 00:06:48.790
So this seized the opportunity and started this business together with friends I still had in China.
00:06:49.030 --> 00:06:53.610
And this was the first, let's say, foot I set into the entrepreneurial space.
00:06:53.810 --> 00:06:58.250
It was only me in the beginning, then later on I hired two students,
00:06:58.430 --> 00:07:04.150
so it was nothing big, but still I could make a living And it felt good to have
00:07:04.150 --> 00:07:07.670
to earn your own money and be independent in that sense.
00:07:08.474 --> 00:07:12.154
At the same time, I mean, I'm a German, and Germans, especially your family,
00:07:12.354 --> 00:07:13.514
tend to be rather conservative.
00:07:13.914 --> 00:07:17.194
So they push you towards getting a real job.
00:07:17.594 --> 00:07:21.334
And real job in German, translated from German, means, okay,
00:07:21.494 --> 00:07:25.374
go into a big company, have a secure job.
00:07:25.594 --> 00:07:31.654
And this is what, especially my dad, was always, let's say, setting or having
00:07:31.654 --> 00:07:33.974
the path laid out for me. This is what you should do, son.
00:07:35.134 --> 00:07:39.494
So that's what I also tried. I mean, I was always, okay, I thought,
00:07:39.614 --> 00:07:42.514
okay, I don't know everything by now. Why not try? I'm still young.
00:07:43.214 --> 00:07:49.034
So I tried working at KPMG, one of the big fours, and I worked in M&A,
00:07:49.154 --> 00:07:54.534
which was an interesting time, also intense, learned a lot, so really steep learning curve.
00:07:54.674 --> 00:08:00.534
But I figured out, okay, this is not something I could see myself doing for
00:08:00.534 --> 00:08:04.974
a long time. And so I stepped foot into another space. So tried out,
00:08:05.054 --> 00:08:06.254
okay, something completely different.
00:08:07.414 --> 00:08:11.854
And that was going into the automotive industry, working at Bosch.
00:08:12.254 --> 00:08:16.794
So this was, for me, something that was not motivated monetarily,
00:08:16.814 --> 00:08:21.414
but something that was also motivated in the sense that let's try out the big
00:08:21.414 --> 00:08:23.594
enterprise. Let's try out a secure job.
00:08:23.794 --> 00:08:30.014
Let's try out shaping something bigger, shaping something that is the transition
00:08:30.014 --> 00:08:36.254
to sustainable mobility, because that was a time when e-mobility was really in the cradle.
00:08:36.254 --> 00:08:41.074
Where Tesla had his first Roadster just released, BMW had his i3.
00:08:41.454 --> 00:08:43.954
So this was something that was also pushing me and said, okay,
00:08:44.034 --> 00:08:45.874
there is something new on the horizon coming.
00:08:46.054 --> 00:08:50.054
That's something where I see, okay, I could also, I can be part of this transition.
00:08:50.714 --> 00:08:54.574
And one of the major players in this transition is Bosch. It's a large automotive
00:08:54.574 --> 00:08:58.214
supplier, so I had good access to this, the company, and hence said,
00:08:58.294 --> 00:09:02.194
okay, let's work in R&D at the forefront of development of this new technology.
00:09:03.714 --> 00:09:06.814
And so I did battery and fuel cell research. Bosch.
00:09:06.854 --> 00:09:12.034
Um, this was, um, established, I mean, the work was, was satisfying and also,
00:09:12.034 --> 00:09:14.734
uh, learning so much about this technology.
00:09:15.034 --> 00:09:19.694
However, being such a small wheel in such a large organization,
00:09:19.854 --> 00:09:24.354
such a large machinery, that was something that was frustrating to me.
00:09:25.156 --> 00:09:30.216
But having that access or having access to that technology can also,
00:09:30.516 --> 00:09:35.336
this sparks a lot of creative thinking because you're surrounded by a lot of brilliant minds.
00:09:35.536 --> 00:09:39.456
You're surrounded with a lot of opportunities that just lie around on the floor
00:09:39.456 --> 00:09:45.096
in such a big organization and a lot of free time to do so, to think about this.
00:09:45.096 --> 00:09:51.236
And this is also, let's say, the starting point where me energy or the thinking
00:09:51.236 --> 00:09:56.956
about me energy also originated is at the time at Bosch, where I also had my
00:09:56.956 --> 00:10:00.076
various experiences with e-mobility and the technology behind.
00:10:00.696 --> 00:10:07.336
You've been saying great ideas lying around on the floor in big companies.
00:10:08.056 --> 00:10:14.476
I would be personally, if I would be an executive, very interested how to harvest
00:10:14.476 --> 00:10:19.996
those ideas, but that'll be a completely different recording here.
00:10:21.276 --> 00:10:27.836
Let's go a little bit to the company, the energy with a very unique concept.
00:10:28.456 --> 00:10:33.756
Was there like a specific moment or challenge in your career that made you think,
00:10:33.976 --> 00:10:36.956
you know what, the world really needs that?
00:10:38.276 --> 00:10:45.996
Bioethanol-powered fast chargers. Can you tell, first, we may tell the audience
00:10:45.996 --> 00:10:51.696
what your product is and then how you got this spark.
00:10:52.236 --> 00:10:57.076
Okay, so what we developed at Mee Energy or what we developed and now we are
00:10:57.076 --> 00:11:01.036
having in the market is off-grid fast charging stations.
00:11:01.356 --> 00:11:06.116
So a charging station that produces its own electricity from bioethanol.
00:11:06.116 --> 00:11:11.356
So a renewable, sustainable energy carrier that is liquid, that can be sourced
00:11:11.356 --> 00:11:16.716
literally anywhere in the globe, and that is always refilled into the stations.
00:11:16.716 --> 00:11:21.276
We always have the means, independent of where you are, independent of any infrastructure
00:11:21.276 --> 00:11:23.076
to fast charge any kind of vehicle.
00:11:24.004 --> 00:11:30.184
And this is especially used in areas where the power grid is not strong enough
00:11:30.184 --> 00:11:34.444
to support fast charging, because fast charging is a real constraint on the grid.
00:11:34.844 --> 00:11:39.744
Just to give the audience a bit of an idea. So you can charge one Tesla or you
00:11:39.744 --> 00:11:41.264
can power a 20 story building.
00:11:41.624 --> 00:11:45.384
It's about the same amount of energy you use for this process.
00:11:46.004 --> 00:11:49.924
So if you then think about charging stations as 20-story buildings,
00:11:50.244 --> 00:11:56.744
you have the sort of a picture of how much the power grid has to handle in the
00:11:56.744 --> 00:11:59.924
future and what a charging park actually means.
00:12:00.264 --> 00:12:07.084
So this is why or this is really why off-grid charging is a puzzle piece for
00:12:07.084 --> 00:12:08.264
the transition to e-mobility.
00:12:08.384 --> 00:12:11.104
But I think we'll tap into that space later on.
00:12:12.624 --> 00:12:21.544
But having this picture in mind, there was really one eureka moment or one moment
00:12:21.544 --> 00:12:25.984
where I had this problem, where I experienced the constraints of the power grid.
00:12:26.124 --> 00:12:30.384
And that was when I was working at Bosch. So this is also why great ideas lie
00:12:30.384 --> 00:12:34.764
around in large organizations, because people like me make experiences.
00:12:34.764 --> 00:12:39.824
You are out on a test drive with an electric car with little to no range.
00:12:39.824 --> 00:12:46.444
And you approach a charging station and that charging station is currently turned off.
00:12:46.844 --> 00:12:51.404
Why? Because it was winter. The power grid was at its limit.
00:12:51.604 --> 00:12:55.244
And the first thing at peak power you turn off is charging stations.
00:12:55.744 --> 00:13:00.144
So I couldn't charge at this charging station when I needed to.
00:13:00.504 --> 00:13:03.744
It was winter. It was cold. And I had no other.
00:13:04.024 --> 00:13:09.864
I couldn't reach another charger. So it was 2016, which also says a lot about
00:13:09.864 --> 00:13:13.584
the development of e-mobility back in the day. So there was little to no charges anywhere.
00:13:14.184 --> 00:13:22.304
And I had to go around in this small village in the Swabian Alps and ask for
00:13:22.304 --> 00:13:27.144
someone to give me his household plug so I can recharge my BMWs.
00:13:27.722 --> 00:13:32.382
And this was, I rang on random doors. I talked to a lot of strangers that looked
00:13:32.382 --> 00:13:37.042
at me like an alien. So what are you and why are you ringing on my door, first of all?
00:13:37.522 --> 00:13:41.782
Second of all, why are you driving an electric car? I mean, Swabia is the heart
00:13:41.782 --> 00:13:43.442
of the automotive industry in Germany.
00:13:44.122 --> 00:13:50.782
And it's all combustion. So this is why, this was an experience I had where
00:13:50.782 --> 00:13:57.382
that made me think about a lot why and how we can make this transition happen.
00:13:57.382 --> 00:14:00.522
And as I said before, I was really passionate about this new development,
00:14:00.822 --> 00:14:02.622
the sustainable mobility.
00:14:03.002 --> 00:14:09.462
And this gave me another spin on this transition. So where are the bottlenecks?
00:14:09.922 --> 00:14:13.782
This is everything in the service. Always find this pain point.
00:14:14.042 --> 00:14:20.402
And this pain point was definitely the brand infrastructure because that cannot
00:14:20.402 --> 00:14:25.022
sustain our charging needs in the future because we want to have convenient mobility.
00:14:25.022 --> 00:14:29.422
We don't want to, like me at that time, stay for six, seven,
00:14:29.562 --> 00:14:31.962
eight hours at a household plug to continue the journey.
00:14:32.322 --> 00:14:37.382
You want to have a sort of splash and dash with 10 minutes, 30 minutes.
00:14:37.502 --> 00:14:39.742
That's what we want to have in recharging as well.
00:14:41.182 --> 00:14:44.402
And the problem will not be the cars, will not be the hardware,
00:14:44.582 --> 00:14:47.922
but the problem will be the infrastructure behind, which is the power grid.
00:14:48.042 --> 00:14:52.762
And this is what I realized in this moment. And then as an engineer,
00:14:53.142 --> 00:14:58.042
well, you're prone to or programmed to find solutions to problems and not just
00:14:58.042 --> 00:15:01.882
see them as a pretty picture somewhere lying around.
00:15:02.122 --> 00:15:07.042
And if you have eight hours in a car to think about, then, well,
00:15:07.242 --> 00:15:12.402
that's the first starting point to find solutions. And that led me eventually
00:15:12.402 --> 00:15:16.102
to bioethanol-powered off-grid fast chargers.
00:15:16.902 --> 00:15:20.502
You are an engineer by trade. how
00:15:20.502 --> 00:15:25.082
did your technical expertise shape your approach to building a startup?
00:15:25.342 --> 00:15:30.562
Did it give you an edge or did you feel like a student again navigating the world of business?
00:15:30.982 --> 00:15:35.682
So, I mean, I think the most important skill you learn as an engineer is that
00:15:35.682 --> 00:15:40.022
you have a large problem and you can break down this large problem into small
00:15:40.022 --> 00:15:44.322
problems, solve these small problems and then set the puzzle back together to
00:15:44.322 --> 00:15:45.642
have the big problem solved,
00:15:46.762 --> 00:15:48.542
independent of your trade.
00:15:49.724 --> 00:15:55.124
However, I mean, knowing I'm a chemical engineer by training and knowing about
00:15:55.124 --> 00:15:57.864
energy flows, about physics in general,
00:15:58.384 --> 00:16:02.544
also about chemistry, battery chemistry and all those chemical reactions that
00:16:02.544 --> 00:16:04.844
happen when you use bioethanols.
00:16:05.144 --> 00:16:11.744
That also gave us an edge in the beginning because the concept was built on
00:16:11.744 --> 00:16:13.584
these basic calculations.
00:16:14.384 --> 00:16:18.344
Later on, I focused more on business topics.
00:16:18.344 --> 00:16:23.244
So, yes, as a startup founder, you tend to be a bit too naive.
00:16:23.244 --> 00:16:29.944
You tend to be a bit overconscious and then take on things,
00:16:30.124 --> 00:16:36.084
tackle things where you easily feel overwhelmed, where you easily feel like
00:16:36.084 --> 00:16:39.544
a student that has to navigate the business world. Definitely.
00:16:40.744 --> 00:16:45.964
But this is also the beauty of it. And this is also because you grow out of
00:16:45.964 --> 00:16:48.324
these challenges that you have to navigate.
00:16:48.624 --> 00:16:55.784
And I was lucky enough to navigate all of those challenges, including dooming
00:16:55.784 --> 00:17:00.344
insolvency over the past years and came out just fine.
00:17:00.564 --> 00:17:05.484
So I think on this, it is worth trying definitely.
00:17:05.664 --> 00:17:09.784
And this is the steepest learning curve you can ever take is trying to be an entrepreneur.
00:17:10.664 --> 00:17:19.164
You already talked about the insolvency you had to file in summer of 2024 for insolvency.
00:17:21.304 --> 00:17:23.904
This must have been one of the most challenging days.
00:17:25.247 --> 00:17:31.227
Of your life um can you take us back to the days and the weeks and month leading
00:17:31.227 --> 00:17:38.307
up to it what was it like what was the hardest part and what have you learned as a founder as leader.
00:17:39.907 --> 00:17:45.647
So in general i mean this is the moment where your dreams are shattered i guess
00:17:45.647 --> 00:17:47.907
is what everybody things of instantly.
00:17:48.727 --> 00:17:55.687
However, when you, I mean, you come also from a lot of, I mean,
00:17:55.907 --> 00:18:00.987
a lot of hope that you had, a lot of work you put in, because we were in a financing round back then.
00:18:01.267 --> 00:18:09.547
We, and the financing round due to, let's say, market climate plus a few shareholder
00:18:09.547 --> 00:18:13.147
commitments that weren't honored in the end fell apart.
00:18:13.807 --> 00:18:23.147
And this is something that's also on a personal level, had a lot of frustration coming with this event.
00:18:23.647 --> 00:18:30.887
But let's say the quality one has as a good entrepreneur, I think, is to never give up.
00:18:31.027 --> 00:18:35.307
And if you're lying in the dust, you stand up again and you fight again.
00:18:35.907 --> 00:18:40.167
And this is, and this is what I want to say to all of those founders out there,
00:18:40.467 --> 00:18:45.267
I mean, especially in Germany, this is considered as a failure in insolvency, but it's not.
00:18:45.407 --> 00:18:50.207
And it's also a chance because this gives you a chance to restructure the company.
00:18:50.227 --> 00:18:57.167
It gives you a chance to get access to new fundings, to new funds you wouldn't
00:18:57.167 --> 00:19:03.027
even consider that are out there just thinking about your regular startup investments.
00:19:04.127 --> 00:19:08.987
And this is what then happened. So I was lucky enough that one of our shareholders
00:19:08.987 --> 00:19:16.947
was well connected in this space and had the right consultants to help us with the process.
00:19:17.307 --> 00:19:22.447
And in the very first meeting I remember today, it is like they said,
00:19:22.507 --> 00:19:25.347
OK, this is not the end. This is the beginning.
00:19:25.667 --> 00:19:30.327
It's a great chance to save the company and save everything with it.
00:19:31.227 --> 00:19:35.687
You just have to work as hard as you did in the past, but now on a different
00:19:35.687 --> 00:19:39.107
path. And so this is what we did.
00:19:39.647 --> 00:19:47.827
And there are a lot of companies and funds that are specialized on complex slash distress situations.
00:19:48.247 --> 00:19:50.147
That's what it's called, the terms.
00:19:50.627 --> 00:19:54.727
And those are the companies we then approached. We approached MLA funds.
00:19:55.387 --> 00:20:00.327
We approached also, let's say, regular operating businesses,
00:20:00.327 --> 00:20:03.327
our customers and partners.
00:20:04.407 --> 00:20:12.207
And then also really rapidly had a feeling okay this is not the end this is
00:20:12.207 --> 00:20:15.287
a new beginning because we saw a light of the end of the tunnel because there
00:20:15.287 --> 00:20:16.587
was a lot of interest flowing in,
00:20:17.727 --> 00:20:24.227
from something that i mean from something that even in dire market conditions.
00:20:25.553 --> 00:20:29.193
There is a need for this technology that everybody immediately understood.
00:20:29.853 --> 00:20:36.853
So then instead of having this new financing round with a lot of multiples and
00:20:36.853 --> 00:20:38.553
a lot of startup investments,
00:20:38.773 --> 00:20:43.013
we found something that is now, let's say, good for the long term and found
00:20:43.013 --> 00:20:47.013
a new shareholder that bought the company.
00:20:48.013 --> 00:20:53.753
And with this, we are set for the future. We are on a long term growing path.
00:20:53.753 --> 00:20:57.773
It will not be triple or quadruple your revenues every year,
00:20:58.073 --> 00:20:59.713
but rather double. And this is fine.
00:21:00.713 --> 00:21:05.053
So this is, it's not a start. I mean, it's still a startup approach sort of,
00:21:05.593 --> 00:21:10.733
but not full throttle, but rather look for more long-term solution.
00:21:10.933 --> 00:21:15.293
And this is also something that this situation, let's say, sparked or triggered.
00:21:16.533 --> 00:21:19.973
So your your recharging solution
00:21:19.973 --> 00:21:23.553
viewed by bioethanol is basically it
00:21:23.553 --> 00:21:29.793
looks from the outside like an overseas container um i assume you choose that
00:21:29.793 --> 00:21:35.953
dimension on purpose so it can be easily shipped where basically inside the
00:21:35.953 --> 00:21:41.553
bioethanol is processed into energy and outside you have a plug and you can fast charge your car.
00:21:41.913 --> 00:21:44.053
Would that be an adequate description?
00:21:44.773 --> 00:21:47.973
Yes. I mean, from the front, it looks like a charging station,
00:21:47.973 --> 00:21:50.553
and then there is a big container around.
00:21:50.893 --> 00:21:55.013
And this is really – so it makes space for the interior, which is the tank,
00:21:55.313 --> 00:21:58.733
then the generator, and then the hardware for fast charging.
00:21:59.513 --> 00:22:03.653
And, yes, we designed it on purpose so it fits with parking space.
00:22:03.653 --> 00:22:05.673
At the same time, it's easily shippable.
00:22:06.533 --> 00:22:08.173
So, yes, well described.
00:22:09.113 --> 00:22:14.933
You already said me, so it's a team effort, me, energy.
00:22:15.433 --> 00:22:19.453
Phonic stories like that are usually packed with stuff like drama,
00:22:19.713 --> 00:22:21.653
breakthrough, and coffee overdoses.
00:22:21.893 --> 00:22:27.853
Could you share a little bit, a few behind-the-scenes anecdotes from the very early days?
00:22:28.113 --> 00:22:35.933
Yes. I mean, in the early days, it's all about, I mean, trying to fill that
00:22:35.933 --> 00:22:38.053
idea with actual content.
00:22:38.393 --> 00:22:40.893
So because when you start, you usually have a small prototype.
00:22:40.893 --> 00:22:42.493
You don't have, you have a presentation.
00:22:42.793 --> 00:22:46.793
And then there was this big moment coming for us. We had our first funds raised.
00:22:46.993 --> 00:22:52.033
And then we had a big display and an opening ceremony for one of our chargers
00:22:52.033 --> 00:22:57.273
here, which were all the local politicians were invited. and we had also the
00:22:57.273 --> 00:23:00.933
head of a local state here coming to the inauguration.
00:23:01.493 --> 00:23:03.733
And the problem is we worked all night.
00:23:04.812 --> 00:23:09.492
For the past week. I mean, it was 24-7 shift, so to say.
00:23:12.012 --> 00:23:19.212
But we weren't finished because that day we expected cars and vehicles to charge.
00:23:19.372 --> 00:23:23.932
For example, a Mercedes truck, we did not ever charge before.
00:23:24.132 --> 00:23:28.612
And we knew, okay, whenever we have an unknown vehicle, there can be problems.
00:23:29.412 --> 00:23:34.472
So we tried everything, but we were not ready at the time of the presentation.
00:23:34.792 --> 00:23:41.632
So what we did was then we rented those vehicles or let's say one vehicle the
00:23:41.632 --> 00:23:46.772
day before, which was an e-truck, and then placed two software engineers inside
00:23:46.772 --> 00:23:48.732
this e-truck for the presentation.
00:23:48.732 --> 00:23:54.432
Had just a small data cable coming out into charger to make sure an overview,
00:23:54.792 --> 00:24:00.152
if anything goes wrong, you can then, let's say, override it and do a manual
00:24:00.152 --> 00:24:03.712
mode for charging instead of having this automated one.
00:24:04.172 --> 00:24:09.572
This was then, funnily enough, was also spotted by the local press,
00:24:09.592 --> 00:24:16.852
which thought it was hilarious that there are two people in the truck with a small desk,
00:24:17.212 --> 00:24:21.032
two monitors, and a laptop, which was then the picture of the day.
00:24:21.232 --> 00:24:22.952
Some even didn't display the head of state.
00:24:23.192 --> 00:24:30.012
Some only displayed the two software engineers inside the truck with our charger in the back.
00:24:31.472 --> 00:24:37.652
You already said, what was the other picture besides the two engineers? The other one was?
00:24:37.852 --> 00:24:40.932
The head of state inaugurating our charger.
00:24:41.292 --> 00:24:46.652
That was at the time and still is at the time of recording Olaf Scholz. So he was also visiting.
00:24:46.912 --> 00:24:49.292
I think that that is pretty cool.
00:24:50.612 --> 00:24:54.492
I mean, this was two different events, though. I mean, it was a local head of state of Brandenburg.
00:24:55.012 --> 00:25:00.292
When Olaf Scholz visited, everything was working well. I mean,
00:25:00.612 --> 00:25:01.812
back then we were operational.
00:25:02.092 --> 00:25:04.592
Everything was in the market. And I mean, the E-Arc trusses,
00:25:04.712 --> 00:25:08.232
so the Mercedes trucks, those are the ones we charge on a regular basis.
00:25:08.272 --> 00:25:13.192
So this was nothing to worry about when he visited. It was more of the security
00:25:13.192 --> 00:25:16.672
aspect surrounding his visit that were more challenging.
00:25:17.232 --> 00:25:23.692
I see, I see. I attended a few events, he was also present and then it's a completely different game.
00:25:24.892 --> 00:25:28.932
You started in the e-mobility space and there's of course no easy task.
00:25:29.592 --> 00:25:34.452
Did you ever have doubts about the feasibility of your ID?
00:25:35.699 --> 00:25:39.279
In general, one always has doubts, I think.
00:25:39.459 --> 00:25:45.359
The question is whether you have the better arguments that those are only doubts
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:48.499
and the solution is too good to fail.
00:25:48.979 --> 00:25:52.679
And this was for me always the case because I guess, especially in the beginning
00:25:52.679 --> 00:25:57.819
or whenever you do fundraising, also throughout the years, is you get a lot
00:25:57.819 --> 00:25:59.539
of rejections. You get a lot of no's.
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:05.919
And this can spark doubt. But at the same time, well, I was always convinced.
00:26:06.219 --> 00:26:09.319
And I mean, the customer feedback then later came and said, OK,
00:26:09.419 --> 00:26:11.259
this is a solution that is really needed.
00:26:13.199 --> 00:26:16.899
And if you have this customer feedback, if you have the also the success in
00:26:16.899 --> 00:26:21.939
the market, this is something that makes it easier to overcome these doubts.
00:26:22.299 --> 00:26:26.319
Because, yes, we are the we're the only ones that ran in this direction.
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:30.079
This is completely opposite to what everybody else was doing. everybody
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:33.319
else was doing great charging then maybe battery buffered okay
00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:36.319
we're saying okay this is still not enough we will
00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:39.179
face those problems because the
00:26:39.179 --> 00:26:43.479
power demand is so high and hence we
00:26:43.479 --> 00:26:46.679
said okay this solution is needed and in the
00:26:46.679 --> 00:26:49.439
end well this success proves
00:26:49.439 --> 00:26:55.279
us right at least markets wise we have so many large companies as customers
00:26:55.279 --> 00:27:02.919
we would never have imagined in the beginning but companies like Mercedes or
00:27:02.919 --> 00:27:08.219
MAN and many many more they are relying on our charging solution every day.
00:27:09.419 --> 00:27:14.439
You already said you ran in a very different direction.
00:27:15.479 --> 00:27:18.919
Your offering was distinct fast charging without
00:27:18.919 --> 00:27:22.039
a grid connection could you explain how
00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:28.659
this model worked and who was your ideal customers because my understanding
00:27:28.659 --> 00:27:39.499
is you basically rented out those containers is that right partly yes so what comes with off-grid.
00:27:40.849 --> 00:27:46.109
Is also a new means of financing. But let's take away a step back.
00:27:46.249 --> 00:27:48.749
So first of all, I mean, nobody's really buying a charging station.
00:27:49.069 --> 00:27:53.829
What they're buying is a fully charged car or a fully charged truck or bus.
00:27:54.049 --> 00:27:57.629
So this is basically what they want to achieve. So they want to have a service
00:27:57.629 --> 00:28:01.129
that is as convenient as possible to recharge their vehicle.
00:28:02.229 --> 00:28:08.029
And the classical way is, OK, you build your own charger that is then recharging
00:28:08.029 --> 00:28:14.929
this. And this has a lot of multi-stakeholder processes, long permits you need, and so forth.
00:28:15.109 --> 00:28:19.349
So what we did is say, okay, we need a shortcut for this.
00:28:19.709 --> 00:28:23.729
We need a shortcut that lowers your investment, that gives you a guaranteed
00:28:23.729 --> 00:28:26.969
business case, and you have reliable costs.
00:28:27.189 --> 00:28:32.389
And ideally, you don't even have to invest, but you have recurring costs,
00:28:32.609 --> 00:28:38.589
a monthly cost, nothing to down pay or any upfront payment. And this is what
00:28:38.589 --> 00:28:40.089
we do with off-grid charging.
00:28:40.509 --> 00:28:45.329
So we have a charger here that doesn't need any construction work at the site.
00:28:45.329 --> 00:28:48.689
So you can simply place a container and start charging three hours later.
00:28:49.749 --> 00:28:54.109
Plus, you can finance it through leasing options or just simply rent it.
00:28:54.809 --> 00:28:57.489
And this is the game changer here because for the first time,
00:28:57.569 --> 00:29:02.129
this is charging as a service where you have a lot of usually a lot of upfront investment.
00:29:03.569 --> 00:29:10.049
And this is not needed with our solution. So, we provide here this one-stop-shop
00:29:10.049 --> 00:29:13.089
solution for charging as a service.
00:29:15.289 --> 00:29:20.749
With the takeover of your investor, will this model change in the future?
00:29:21.749 --> 00:29:24.009
No, this will definitely not change.
00:29:25.089 --> 00:29:32.769
The investor is looking forward to also grow this model and expand more internationally.
00:29:32.769 --> 00:29:39.449
So, so far, we were really focused on Germany and we had the first chargers installed in Poland.
00:29:39.749 --> 00:29:43.409
But we are looking forward to also an international expansion,
00:29:43.849 --> 00:29:50.229
especially with this new shareholder to the US and also some Southeast Asian
00:29:50.229 --> 00:29:55.369
markets, which are desperately looking forward to more sustainable and reliable
00:29:55.369 --> 00:29:57.489
power production and fast charging.
00:29:57.489 --> 00:30:00.089
That is awesome. You always give me the cues.
00:30:00.849 --> 00:30:04.969
Sustainability and innovation were at the core of me energy.
00:30:05.269 --> 00:30:09.329
How did you balance the environmental aspect and the profitability?
00:30:10.737 --> 00:30:17.117
So we are in a market where not being sustainable is not an option because in
00:30:17.117 --> 00:30:22.277
general, what people look for when buying electric vehicles is a more sustainable solutions.
00:30:22.517 --> 00:30:26.837
Also, a lot of companies are driven by ESG reporting, by lowering their own
00:30:26.837 --> 00:30:33.557
carbon emissions, either by legislation or if one of their major customers demands,
00:30:34.097 --> 00:30:35.757
for example, carbon neutral transport.
00:30:35.997 --> 00:30:39.997
This is the case with a lot of OEMs in the automotive sector.
00:30:39.997 --> 00:30:44.197
They demand their logistics partners to go for carbon neutral transport so that
00:30:44.197 --> 00:30:46.137
the OEMs lower their emissions themselves.
00:30:47.137 --> 00:30:51.897
And so sustainability is really at the core of our business offering.
00:30:52.077 --> 00:30:59.697
And also to maybe give the audience one or two facts about sustainability here is that our chargers,
00:30:59.777 --> 00:31:06.437
they actually are less or they have less emissions per kilometer or kilowatt
00:31:06.437 --> 00:31:07.977
hour than their solar panel.
00:31:08.937 --> 00:31:17.517
So we produce energy in Germany, in Northern Europe, and even in Poland, France, and so forth.
00:31:17.697 --> 00:31:21.037
We produce it more sustainably than a solar panel.
00:31:21.817 --> 00:31:27.157
We are almost at a level of onshore wind, and offshore wind is by far the best.
00:31:28.477 --> 00:31:33.777
But we are there. And this is what was also driving me and is still driving
00:31:33.777 --> 00:31:35.737
the team, that with every charger we deliver,
00:31:36.097 --> 00:31:43.957
we contribute to a cleaner and greener and more sustainable future that where
00:31:43.957 --> 00:31:46.077
you can still drive your car,
00:31:46.237 --> 00:31:51.257
where you can still get your food delivered and all the goods delivered by truck.
00:31:52.317 --> 00:31:57.297
Because I mean, otherwise, continuing this fossil way is not an option for a
00:31:57.297 --> 00:31:58.617
lot of people, at least in my generation.
00:31:59.997 --> 00:32:05.257
We may add that ESG means environmental, social, and governments.
00:32:05.697 --> 00:32:10.817
It's a shorthand for investment principles that prioritize those aspects.
00:32:10.997 --> 00:32:13.657
Governments meaning corporate governance.
00:32:14.357 --> 00:32:17.417
That was something I just had to throw in. Joe.
00:32:18.737 --> 00:32:24.777
As we already discussed, your chargers were visited by Chancellor Olaf Scholz.
00:32:24.937 --> 00:32:30.037
That is quite an endorsement. Did this kind of recognition create a momentum
00:32:30.037 --> 00:32:33.537
for your business or was it just a symbolic boost?
00:32:34.577 --> 00:32:42.277
Let's say it sparked a lot of talks with existing and prospect customers.
00:32:42.817 --> 00:32:48.157
So in that sense, it was always so we were in the news. We had a lot of coverage.
00:32:48.577 --> 00:32:54.477
And this always sparks a lot of interest, either to warm up the conversation
00:32:54.477 --> 00:32:59.797
about follow up orders Or if someone was at the brink of ordering,
00:33:00.157 --> 00:33:06.457
maybe then tilted towards the way that they're actually ordering instead of refusing the offer.
00:33:06.637 --> 00:33:13.377
And this is what was there. But I would say the biggest boost it gave here and
00:33:13.377 --> 00:33:14.477
confidence for the team.
00:33:15.117 --> 00:33:21.757
So having this, having such a visit and also him, I mean,
00:33:22.297 --> 00:33:26.657
let's say I always said to the team, It doesn't really matter what you think
00:33:26.657 --> 00:33:31.737
of this person, but think of him as the most influential or the influencer in
00:33:31.737 --> 00:33:34.237
Germany with the most reach you have.
00:33:34.777 --> 00:33:39.957
And he is visiting this company. I like his characterization. I love it.
00:33:40.457 --> 00:33:47.117
And everybody in the end was, I mean, and also this whole event coming with a lot of security.
00:33:47.357 --> 00:33:50.657
I mean, there were docs checking this. They were, let's say,
00:33:50.957 --> 00:33:53.977
they came to this facility for random checks twice before.
00:33:54.317 --> 00:33:59.137
A lot of police, we had to clean out everything which is sharp,
00:33:59.377 --> 00:34:04.337
everything which is metal, everything that can fall from the sky, from the ceiling.
00:34:05.192 --> 00:34:08.652
Everything had to be cleaned. So it was a huge event, but in the end,
00:34:08.752 --> 00:34:13.172
it was worth it because everybody, after all, felt, okay, we are on a good mission.
00:34:13.512 --> 00:34:21.232
What we do is valuable, and this is the small spark or this small additional
00:34:21.232 --> 00:34:25.352
push the team needs to continue on,
00:34:25.512 --> 00:34:30.152
and I think this was the most valuable that came out of this visit.
00:34:30.552 --> 00:34:35.352
All the customer endorsement, all the conversations he had, the nice pictures,
00:34:35.572 --> 00:34:36.552
yes, I mean, that's nice.
00:34:36.712 --> 00:34:42.312
I mean, my mom was really proud, yes, with the pictures, but this is not what you do it for.
00:34:42.532 --> 00:34:46.772
What you do it for is really, or what we did it in the end for was the team
00:34:46.772 --> 00:34:48.532
and the spirit that came out of it.
00:34:49.792 --> 00:34:53.332
It's an awesome bonus if your mom is proud of you. Yes.
00:34:54.352 --> 00:34:58.652
Yeah, I mean, I mean, having having, let's say, a satisfied or a proud parent
00:34:58.652 --> 00:35:04.992
is better than having those parents that were, let's say, that question always
00:35:04.992 --> 00:35:06.852
your career, because, I mean,
00:35:07.212 --> 00:35:13.732
this is this is also maybe what in the end have also my dad make peace with
00:35:13.732 --> 00:35:16.592
me being an entrepreneur and having this, let's say,
00:35:16.992 --> 00:35:20.952
rather rollercoaster lifestyle than a regular nine to five job at Bosch.
00:35:20.952 --> 00:35:27.592
Let's have a little break for our advertisers, partners, and we'll back in just 60 seconds.
00:35:29.572 --> 00:35:37.052
Okay, now we've talked a lot about you, your current company, your origins.
00:35:37.352 --> 00:35:40.992
Let's go a little bit into the future outlook.
00:35:41.992 --> 00:35:46.252
For me personally, the insolvency came as a surprise. As you said,
00:35:46.472 --> 00:35:52.952
some commitments from shareholders were not met. So you didn't have an option
00:35:52.952 --> 00:35:55.492
to do anything else than to file for insolvency.
00:35:55.592 --> 00:36:02.152
But if you could rewind time, what would you do differently to steer the company
00:36:02.152 --> 00:36:04.252
onto a different course?
00:36:05.052 --> 00:36:13.072
So rewinding time, I mean, being a lot wiser now is sooner setting structures
00:36:13.072 --> 00:36:19.812
for scaling that don't require increasing costs that much.
00:36:20.792 --> 00:36:28.312
Translating into our terms is, so we in the beginning delivered a lot of products,
00:36:29.532 --> 00:36:35.692
for pilot projects, for example, where they were in the end rather costly to keep up.
00:36:37.032 --> 00:36:42.632
So if I would be wise, I was like, okay, do less, do that more focused.
00:36:43.932 --> 00:36:49.752
And not increase your costs as fast. Coming from a time, and also when we did
00:36:49.752 --> 00:36:54.972
our last financing round, was still the time of little to no interest rates,
00:36:55.272 --> 00:36:56.672
a lot of money in the market,
00:36:57.432 --> 00:36:59.692
and the only thing that mattered was growth.
00:37:01.384 --> 00:37:04.424
And so that growth at
00:37:04.424 --> 00:37:07.784
all costs and this mantra was also something that
00:37:07.784 --> 00:37:10.684
we had to listen to here because i mean those were our shareholders
00:37:10.684 --> 00:37:14.264
after all so it was growth at all costs and
00:37:14.264 --> 00:37:17.784
then we had growth at all costs but those costs
00:37:17.784 --> 00:37:21.564
were not sustainable and then especially in
00:37:21.564 --> 00:37:24.564
heavy regulated markets like germany um cutting
00:37:24.564 --> 00:37:27.344
those costs is something that at a certain
00:37:27.344 --> 00:37:30.604
point you cannot do anymore unless you
00:37:30.604 --> 00:37:33.804
do go for a full restructuring and so
00:37:33.804 --> 00:37:37.164
this is one lesson I'll take and the second one is choose
00:37:37.164 --> 00:37:41.544
your shareholders wisely I mean and even
00:37:41.544 --> 00:37:45.284
one day on the board they will not support you at all costs but rather you have
00:37:45.284 --> 00:37:51.284
to manage those relations and this is something that can be really time intense
00:37:51.284 --> 00:37:57.404
but this is also your role as a founder or as a CEO and this is something what
00:37:57.404 --> 00:38:00.744
I can only recommend is keep your shareholders happy.
00:38:01.424 --> 00:38:05.724
Don't keep them happy with any fancy presentations, but rather keep them happy
00:38:05.724 --> 00:38:10.124
with honest conversations and regular conversations, even if things don't look
00:38:10.124 --> 00:38:12.144
good. And then just ask them for advice.
00:38:12.584 --> 00:38:16.284
Maybe it's good advice. Maybe it's bad advice. But if they have the feeling
00:38:16.284 --> 00:38:20.924
they can help, they are more on board and more happy to help.
00:38:22.524 --> 00:38:27.424
Yes, always reminds me of two aspects. One of them is an article in TechCrunch
00:38:27.424 --> 00:38:31.724
that more investors have made startups fail than any market ever did.
00:38:31.964 --> 00:38:38.204
And the second one is that you should also, what we discussed with different
00:38:38.204 --> 00:38:41.784
interview guests in different dimensions, different aspects here,
00:38:41.924 --> 00:38:45.724
is you should always listen to your shareholders.
00:38:45.724 --> 00:38:49.804
Yes, you should manage the conversation because if you just go there,
00:38:49.944 --> 00:38:51.064
guys, everything is shit.
00:38:51.144 --> 00:38:55.584
I don't know what to do. You can be very sure your shareholders will walk out
00:38:55.584 --> 00:39:03.684
and look for a party to buy your company because they are interested in keeping
00:39:03.684 --> 00:39:05.944
and increasing their investment.
00:39:06.124 --> 00:39:09.364
So as you said, they will not support you at any costs.
00:39:13.625 --> 00:39:18.145
Going a little bit further, what advice would you offer to entrepreneurs looking
00:39:18.145 --> 00:39:25.545
to innovate in industries with heavy regulatory or infrastructure challenges like energy?
00:39:27.125 --> 00:39:32.505
So in general, I mean, for me, or what's still this or what also fuels this
00:39:32.505 --> 00:39:36.865
is, I mean, real change also comes from hardware.
00:39:36.865 --> 00:39:42.325
I mean, yes, software does a lot of good, and it's needed in a lot of areas.
00:39:42.325 --> 00:39:46.165
It will increase efficiency a lot, yes, but if you want to change big time,
00:39:46.305 --> 00:39:48.745
you have to go big, big meaning hardware.
00:39:49.485 --> 00:39:55.905
And so this is a hard issue to tackle because it's so capital intense,
00:39:56.145 --> 00:40:02.865
time to markets are long, and hence you need a long breath to withhold,
00:40:03.485 --> 00:40:07.725
and actually get to the market and then also be successful in the market.
00:40:08.585 --> 00:40:17.145
So what kind of advice I would give those is, well, don't forget why you're
00:40:17.145 --> 00:40:19.265
doing it or what are you doing it for?
00:40:19.425 --> 00:40:22.405
Because, I mean, you always have to have this vision because that will keep
00:40:22.405 --> 00:40:25.145
you going even if you get a lot of no's.
00:40:25.805 --> 00:40:30.985
Hardware infrastructure is not really something, a sexy topic for most investors,
00:40:30.985 --> 00:40:38.945
Even if they say there are technology agnostic or whatever euphemism they use,
00:40:39.485 --> 00:40:41.585
hardware is not usually the case they find sexy.
00:40:41.905 --> 00:40:46.985
So I would say try institutional investors.
00:40:47.625 --> 00:40:50.865
This is something that usually helps, especially in the early days.
00:40:51.845 --> 00:40:55.485
State supported loans, state supported subsidies.
00:40:55.485 --> 00:40:58.845
This is something that you go for. I mean, it's also heavily regulated,
00:40:59.125 --> 00:41:00.965
but it helps you not diluting too
00:41:00.965 --> 00:41:04.925
much in the early days and keep it as an attractive investment vehicle.
00:41:06.085 --> 00:41:11.685
And when it comes to, say, regulation, regulation in the beginning is a pain.
00:41:12.385 --> 00:41:14.405
Once you solved it, it's an advantage.
00:41:15.365 --> 00:41:20.905
So this is also something a lot of business models can come out from solving
00:41:20.905 --> 00:41:27.465
this legislation issue. For example, for us, we have a mobile unit.
00:41:28.724 --> 00:41:33.984
That is still a charging station. So we don't need any building permits, for example.
00:41:34.404 --> 00:41:40.424
We don't need to file for authorization at the local government to set up charging
00:41:40.424 --> 00:41:42.424
infrastructure as long as we are on private ground.
00:41:42.584 --> 00:41:46.104
We can just place it there, which is a perfect use case, for example,
00:41:46.224 --> 00:41:48.384
for rentals. You have an event, you have trade fair.
00:41:49.024 --> 00:41:53.024
We're there for one week and we're gone afterwards without leaving a trace.
00:41:53.624 --> 00:41:59.144
So this is really an advantage because we designed this product to adhere to
00:41:59.144 --> 00:42:03.204
all this legislational hurdles that we can now use.
00:42:03.724 --> 00:42:10.644
So it's always a barrier, legislation, but it can be also a market entry barrier
00:42:10.644 --> 00:42:13.424
for others. So you can take that as an advantage.
00:42:13.924 --> 00:42:20.164
That was already good advice. Finally, we get to the last official question.
00:42:22.164 --> 00:42:27.004
If a young startup founder asks you what's more important, have a groundbreaking
00:42:27.004 --> 00:42:31.384
idea, or building the right team? What would you say and why?
00:42:31.904 --> 00:42:36.924
I think most entrepreneurs would say the right team, and also me,
00:42:38.584 --> 00:42:41.664
because groundbreaking ideas exist a lot.
00:42:42.744 --> 00:42:48.244
90% is execution, and execution comes with the right people and the right team.
00:42:48.604 --> 00:42:55.384
So choose those that are willing to go or to fight and to go into battle with you.
00:42:55.384 --> 00:42:58.264
At the same time always are honest with
00:42:58.264 --> 00:43:01.464
you and they speak their mind because the last
00:43:01.464 --> 00:43:04.464
thing you can use in a startup
00:43:04.464 --> 00:43:07.944
is politics you don't want to have anyone not
00:43:07.944 --> 00:43:11.164
speaking their mind or acting a certain way not
00:43:11.164 --> 00:43:14.504
working towards the same goals because of some
00:43:14.504 --> 00:43:21.724
food a few that few they have with another party member or some form of deep
00:43:21.724 --> 00:43:26.264
down conflict so this is something i would always advice is choose the right
00:43:26.264 --> 00:43:32.104
team and usually a right team also finds the right idea that is a match for their skill set.
00:43:33.082 --> 00:43:36.642
That is good. And now the only inofficial question.
00:43:36.982 --> 00:43:42.462
You already said the team is very important. You're doing a restart with a bigger
00:43:42.462 --> 00:43:43.882
investor in the background.
00:43:43.982 --> 00:43:48.622
You are looking to expand globally, talking about the US and Asia.
00:43:49.302 --> 00:43:56.282
Are you actually looking for talent? Yes, we're always looking for talent in a lot of areas.
00:43:56.962 --> 00:44:00.342
Since we're a hardware startup, I mean, And also those engineers out there,
00:44:00.382 --> 00:44:04.642
which are not only software related, feel free to join here.
00:44:04.922 --> 00:44:10.662
Electrical engineering, mechanical engineering is needed, but also obviously software engineering.
00:44:11.262 --> 00:44:17.962
And also we always look for business talents when it comes to sales and marketing.
00:44:18.322 --> 00:44:24.242
Feel free to apply. We have a lot of challenges ahead of us and there's a growth
00:44:24.242 --> 00:44:28.122
path laid out. I mean, as I said, it's a more sustainable growth path,
00:44:28.162 --> 00:44:30.522
but this also needs a lot of new talent.
00:44:30.922 --> 00:44:36.542
So I'm looking forward to your applications or just reach out for original coffee.
00:44:36.922 --> 00:44:38.202
Happy to talk to you guys.
00:44:38.662 --> 00:44:44.782
As always, down here in the show notes, we will link your career website. Alex? Yes.
00:44:45.102 --> 00:44:49.002
Thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you. What people from the outside
00:44:49.002 --> 00:44:55.642
cannot tell, we're talking now for almost an hour with 45 minutes of recording. Thank you very much.
00:44:55.782 --> 00:44:58.062
You have been a great guest in a very difficult situation.
00:44:58.642 --> 00:45:02.942
Thank you for having me, Joe. It was a pleasure to be here. And hopefully one
00:45:02.942 --> 00:45:08.682
or two things or one or two experiences I shared leave a memory for your audience.
00:45:09.682 --> 00:45:11.182
Thank you. Thank you.
00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:19.920
Music.
00:45:16.002 --> 00:45:25.522
That's all folks. Find more news, streams, events, and interviews at www.startuprad.io
00:45:25.622 --> 00:45:28.142
Remember, sharing is caring.
00:45:28.880 --> 00:45:41.674
Music.
