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So, hello and welcome to this episode of Consultant Conversations, brought to you by the Recently Appointed Consultants Committee at the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh.
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My name is Luke Yates.
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I'm a member of the Recently Appointed Consultants Committee and a consultant physician in stroke and geriatric medicine in NHS Lanarkshire.
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This podcast series has been developed to help support early career consultants, and today we're going to be discussing how consultants can be more involved in research.
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I'm delighted to be joined today by Professor Terry Quinn.
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Professor Quinn is a professor of cardiovascular aging and the current David Cargill Chair of Geriatric Medicine at the University of Glasgow.
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He has a wealth of experience in conducting and authoring original research, supporting research and research methodology.
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He is National Lead for Aging for the National Institute for Health and Care Research and National Lead for Aging for NHS Research Scotland.
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And he combines all this with his work as a consultant physician in Stroke and Geriatrics in Glasgow.
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Professor Quinn, thank you so much for joining me today.
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Thank you, Luke.
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Looking forward to chatting about research.
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That's exactly.
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We're going to talk about the topic of clinical research, and particularly from the perspective of relatively new consultants who may be interested in being more involved in research alongside their clinical commitments.
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And you're someone who does exactly that.
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You combine clinical work with your research work.
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So I wonder if we can start off with a bit of your own story, telling me how you got to this position, got involved in research as you are now.
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Very happy to do that.
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As is every clinical academic, always very happy to talk about themselves.
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So it's a good place to get started.
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I guess something to say is for people who maybe aren't actively involved in research, they maybe have a perception that clinical academics are born into the world with a microscope and some advanced knowledge of metasynthesis.
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You know, and really that's not the case at all.
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And it's certainly not the case for me.
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When I was in medical school and when I started as a junior doctor, I had a 10-year career plan that really didn't feature research at all.
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And just opportunities came along.
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And I guess that's one of the things that I want to emphasize is for new consultants in many aspects, but particularly with research, look out for opportunities.
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And when they come along, you know, if they seem interesting to you, do take them.
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I see lots and lots of things around how to say no.
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And saying no is important.
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You know, it's important for your mental health, it's important for, you know, having a good work-life balance.
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But sometimes, particularly in the research field, you need to say yes to things that maybe seem a little bit scary because they can really help you and they can add to that really nice portfolio career that I have.
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So, my own background, I started off after junior doctor jobs, knew that I wanted to do geriatric medicine.
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In old money, I did what was then senior house officer jobs, and I applied to be a registrar, was told I was a bit early for that.
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And that's when an opportunity came along.
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An opportunity came along to work in a stroke research department.
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It was a very clinical pharmacology-based research department, so something quite different for me, but you know, really great learning.
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And through that, I did a higher degree and got the bug for research, went back into training and was fortunate enough to get a little bit of protected time one day a week to try and build an academic CV.
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And also I took opportunities to go to other places to do some learning there.
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So I spent some time in the University of Oxford and then I spent some time with the Cochrane Dementia Group, you know, all you know, within busy clinical training to try and get my skills up.
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And then I was very fortunate to be given a clinical senior lecturer post at the time of my CCT from the Stroke Association.
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And I guess everything else just fell from there.
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So that's my journey, in no way predetermined.
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That's how life is one of the points that prompted me to think this was a good topic to be talking about is recognizing the variation in people's experience of research as they become or approach becoming consultants.
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I have certainly worked with people that knew they wanted to be very academic early on in their careers, went down very academic pathways, or have done PhDs and, you know, lots of research experience long before they reached the end of their training.
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But also lots of people like me who are aware of some research, some involvement supporting it in departments that were doing a lot of it as I went along, but have become a consultant and found myself in a department that's doing lots of research and that is keen for me to be supporting and involved in that, but I'm not coming with an academic background.
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I appreciate I'm starting with a very broad question here, but that open question for consultants, new consultants who are interested in research or aware of opportunities around them, don't have a lot of experience or familiarity with it.
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Where's a good place to start?
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How do you start with, you know, finding out more and making yourself prepared to be more involved?
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I want to answer that by taking a step back.
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And again, one of the things I want to do in this podcast is just challenge some of the stereotypes or misperceptions that people might have.
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So I think a lot of people would consider being involved in research as being synonymous with having a university post or being heavily involved in the university.
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And that's really not the case at all.
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And you can always imagine there's a kind of spectrum of research activity from being someone that's supportive of what's going on, but really, you know, isn't particularly turned on by research, but you know, will support what's going on through to people that are maybe leading on the trials that are happening within their own hospital, right through to those card-carrying clinical academics that maybe do have a university post.
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And there's room in the world for all of them.
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I want to just share with you, I went at the beginning of my consulting career, I went on a management course about being a clinical research leader.
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And we all had to do a thing called the Miles Briggs personality test.
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And we were told that there was a certain personality to be a research leader, and it completely wasn't me at all.
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And actually, it wasn't half the people in the room.
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And what I took from that is there's no phenotype for being, you know, someone active in research or for being a good researcher.
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Actually, lots of different skills can help support that whole ecosystem.
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And I guess when I was first getting into this in my head, I thought, right, to be involved in research, you have to be brainy, you have to be ballsy, you have to be busy.
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But actually, if I look at people who are really important in driving forward NHS research, they're not always that.
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I mean, they often are pretty intelligent and they often are busy.
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But actually, the people that really drive things forward are people that have good people skills, people that could work in teams, and people that have ideas, people that can think about things and maybe just see beyond the day-to-day of the NHS.
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Now I realize, look, I've I've completely not answered your question there.
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There's no phenotype.
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Anyone can get involved in this.
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But your question was around what can people do.
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And I think what people need to do is just start talking to the players in the system.
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So I would recommend, assuming that most of the people listening to this that are working in hospitals, although you don't have to work in a hospital setting to be involved in research, there will be an RI department.
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I can tell you they will be looking for people who could help them deliver commercial and academic trials.
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You'll almost find they bite your hand off if you approach them and say that you're interested in supporting research activity.
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In many hospitals, I realise not all of them, but in many hospitals, there will be people who have quite a lot of research activity in their CV, in their job plan.
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It might not necessarily be in your department, but you know, reach out to them, speak to them.
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They will then signpost you to the other people within your organization that can help you.
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And then going a little bit broader than that, if you're really interested in this, there will be people within your respective regions of the UK that can help.
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So I have the honour and the privilege of being the NIHR RDN lead for aging, but within each area of NHS England, there is a regional lead for aging and also for all of the other old gears.
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Our remit is to help support people who want to support research.
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And if, like you and I, look, you're lucky enough to live in Scotland, there's NHS Research Scotland, and they also have an equivalent scheme and they have people that could help you.
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So reach out, start talking to people, and they can point you in the right direction.
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A really important point you raised that it's not just about universities and you know, obviously these are very important networks as well.
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But I've shared and seen that perspective that it looks like all the researchers have titles like clinical lecturer and have had that for 10 years and they all know each other very well, and then, you know, actually looking for more local resources and you know, people that can support getting you in the right places and understanding what's available locally.
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In terms of, you know, if you're someone who's pursuing getting more involved, they want to learn more about, you know, the topic of research.
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Are there particular kind of qualifications or learning that's really quite important to get your foot in that door and have, say, you're in a position to start?
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There's formal and informal learning.
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And I think I've probably learned a lot of what I know about research just sort of through osmosis and through getting involved.
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That's always one good way to learn, but you can complement that with more formal schemes.
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And I guess you don't want to boil the ocean.
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If you don't have a background in research, don't go into this thinking, right, I immediately want to run lots of clinical trials.
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You build things up a little bit in the same way that you would if you're setting up a new clinical service, you wouldn't immediately just start it and expect to be running the show.
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You know, you you would build it up slowly.
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If I can signpost a few things that I think are useful, if as part of your research support you're thinking about clinical trials, and that's not all of research, but it is a large part of it, it's useful to have done good clinical practice, which is an online course free if you're in the NHS.
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Takes around an afternoon, but that then is a certificate that you have that allows you to be involved in the delivery of clinical trials, particularly clinical trials of medicines.
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The colleges have schemes to NIHR, have a lot of online training, and that begins right through the career.
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So I know this podcast is about new consultants, but there might be people listening who are, you know, in the senior phases of their training.
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And there are schemes like Associate PI run by the NIHR that allow you to become immersed in research in a very supportive way so that when you do get CCT, you're ready to become what we call a principal investigator, a leader of research within the hospital that you work in.
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Again, you know, lots of opportunities there, lots of places to get training, to find out more.
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I think going back to what I said before, reach out to people that are already doing it.
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Probably the most important thing you can have is someone that's a bit of a mentor for research that can just guide you through and signpost you to where the useful things are.
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I think it's worth me mentioning something I found helpful.
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The Royal College of Physicians, Edinburgh, does a course, the systematic review and meta-analysis course.
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And I know you've taught on the faculty of that previously.
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It tends to be on most years, and so I expect it will run again.
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I did that towards the end of my training, surely before I became a consultant, and did find that very helpful.
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And as you say, there's lots of online resources that probably isn't necessary to go and do all of them, but the NIHR website, their learn pages have a lot of sort of intro to research, and to intro to evidence.
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And the Cockbrain website has some really good resources as well, you know, for people trying to learn and get more familiar with the terminology and the words and everything that's used.
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Sometimes when you read these things, they do look like they're pitching for kind of catching people in the early career, getting people involved early.
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But, you know, just to reinforce the points that we're covering here, you're not saying it's too late to get involved if you're already a consultant, you're already in clinical work.
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Absolutely.
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It's never too late.
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And one of the things that I really want to promote is for clinicians to realise the value they bring to research.
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So again, if you maybe haven't had a career where to date you've been involved in a lot of things, you might think, well, you know, what can I offer?
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And actually, you can offer loads.
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And it's one of the things you realize as you work more with commercial companies is how much they value just the insight and the knowledge you have as a clinician.
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And all the other bits, the jargon of research and you know, how to support research, all of that stuff you can learn.
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But it's on the background of being a really good NHS clinical consultant.
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So, you know, there's no time that's too late.
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I don't want anyone listening to this podcast who is potentially interested to think, oh, well, I've got nothing to offer.
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Because actually, you just by virtue of knowing your craft, knowing your specialty, knowing how the NHS works, you've got huge amounts to offer.
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And I know we've talked about this topic in the past ourselves informally.
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You've often described things as, yeah, there are those that find research and interest, they want that to be a regular part of their week, but also a lot of consultants who maybe are more peripherally involved or kind of recognize they could be doing more to support it without necessarily wanting to pursue it as a sort of interest that will could be a big part of their job plan or similar.
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And I think you know, knowing these resources are out there, knowing that it's valued by colleagues and by the NHS to even have a supporting kind of view on things and be familiar with what's happening locally is such a valuable thing for consultants to be engaged with and doing.
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We touched a bit on kind of mindset and personalities and that.
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But for people that are thinking, is this for me?
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Is this something I want to pursue?
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What do you say to people when they say, what makes a good researcher?
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What do I need to be?
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Is this my sort of thing?
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What do I enjoy or will I enjoy about this?
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I get it.
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I still work 50% NHS and I know the reality of the NHS right now and you know how difficult it is, how stretched it is, and how challenging it can be to even think about doing something other than the day-to-day service delivery that just seems to be a time vacuum and take up all of your time.
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So I guess what I want to do is two things.
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I'm going to do a little bit of a pitch and I make no apologies for that.
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And then I want to just say where I think the benefits are.
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We aren't doing it on this podcast, but sometimes when people talk about research, they consider it as other, you know, as a thing that exists in isolation to the real work, which is clinical work.
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And that's a mindset that we need to challenge.
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And that, you know, the GMC and the colleges and the NIHR are all trying to challenge that and show that research really is core to what the NHS does, and it's not niche at all.
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There was a report from NIHR that came out this year, and it showed that there's 10,000 frontline research staff in the NHS.
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And you're looking, you know, just in terms of numbers, more than a million people took part in research last year, and that's over four and a half thousand studies.
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So, you know, not a niche part of the NHS at all.
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And by being involved in research, obviously you're creating new knowledge that improves care, but you're also doing things like allowing access to treatments, you know, particularly in fields like oncology, you know, that's how you get access to the new treatments.
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People are probably aware of that.
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They're maybe not aware of some of the other benefits that come with research.
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So research stimulates the economy.
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And you know, there's a budget coming up.
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I think we're all aware that the economy needs a little bit of stimulation.
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Again, this is data from the NIHR.
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They show that for every pound invested in clinical research, 13 is returned to the economy.
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That's good value.
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And then the other thing is by being involved in research, you're actually supporting the whole NHS ecosystem around you.
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So there's a fact that's banded about a lot.
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Those trusts or those health boards that are actively involved in research have 5% lower mortality than the trusts that aren't actively involved in research.
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Now, if you're an academic, you'll immediately say, Well, that's all confounding.
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And that could be true, but I'm just going to go with those absolute figures, 5% lower mortality.
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So that's my pitch.
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That's my pitch about all of the system's benefits.
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If I was being selfish, and I thought, well, what are the benefits for me, or what are the benefits for someone thinking about this?
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Something you and I have spoken about before is I think all NHS clinicians need another thing in their life.
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You know, just purely doing NHS services, it's very rewarding, but you need another thing.
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And that thing can be education teaching, it can be management, it can be being involved with the colleges, or it could be research, but you really do need something that sits alongside your clinical practice.
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It's showing time and time again that being involved in research improves your job satisfaction and it reduces burnout.
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And let's be honest, it helps your CV.
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So it helps with career progression, it helps with things like merit awards, distinctions, you know, whatever is applicable where you work.
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So there are benefits to the whole world, but there are benefits for you as well.
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Absolutely.
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And following up on some of what you've said there, when I was researching for doing this together, there's been some pretty high-level statements from national organisations about how integral research is to the NHS's work.
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Certainly the Royal Colleges of Physicians and the NIHR put out a statement a couple of years ago, which was called Making Research Everybody's Business.
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Previously, the Scottish Royal Colleges of Physicians and the Academy, the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges and Faculties in Scotland, have sort of contributing to things like the 2020 vision for healthcare in Scotland, have stressed the importance of research.
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But something else comes out in these statements, and I think this leads nicely into what we also, a lot of people want to talk about.
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There's good census data on this.
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People are interested in research, people recognize the importance of research.
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Most doctors say the thing that's holding them back from being more involved is time, getting time to do it and needing ring-fenced time to do it.
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And alongside that, of course, comes the question of funding, both funding for time and then maybe the broader question of, you know, how does a research idea get funded?
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Now, obviously, that latter topic is a very big question to cover in a podcast.
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Do you have any high-level tips or suggestions when people are thinking, I'd love to do more research?
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I have no time to do it.
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Where do I even start asking?
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Yeah.
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It's a really good question.
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I'm not naive to the fact that there can be good intention, but if you don't have ring-fenced time and a job plan, it's difficult to deliver on that.
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So I guess we're talking about money.
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And it's a difficult time to talk about money because the NHS is on its knees.
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The universities, there's a sector-wide financial crisis, and the charities that fund research are also, you know, in a very bad place.
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So, you know, there's not a lot of money about, but it doesn't mean that there's no money about.
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And often, if you are enthusiastic about this, money can be found.
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And it's about just, you know, exploring opportunities.
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So if I go through just some of the ways, work that we're doing in the RDN, work that's happening in NHS Research Scotland, is about trying to get research activity recognized as direct clinical activity and job plans.
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That's an ongoing conversation.
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But you know, there are some disciplines that have made some progress in that, and I think that's a real step in the right direction, and hopefully we'll see more of that.
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Funders of research, so the charities and UKRI, you know, MRC, places like that, they recognize the value of clinicians contributing to research.
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So there are schemes that will fund some of your time.
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:22.480
And there are specific schemes for people who are consultants that have never done research, and there are schemes for those people who maybe did some research early in their training and then have kind of left that to one side because they wanted to focus on upskilling as an NHS consultant for them to come back.
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:24.480
There's schemes there as well.
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:31.200
Through NIHR and through NHS Research Scotland, there are also some schemes that will buy some of your time.
00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:37.359
These schemes have different names and they're dynamic, they're changing all the time, but they're out there.
00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:42.880
So for example, NHS Research Scotland has a scheme that will buy one or two sessions.
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:52.799
The quid pro quo is you need to use those sessions to support some of the activity that's happening in your hospital, but it also gives you time to start to develop your own ideas.
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:59.759
And then there's always, and this is something that we're much more aware of now, following things like the O'Shaughnessy report, there's the income that comes.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:01.839
From commercial trial activity.
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.160
Very attractive to hospitals.
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:14.480
And if you're willing to support commercial trial activity, you can find you can get to a place that that money that you generate through that can then be used to start to buy some of your time.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.400
So you know there are options there, they're not always easy to find.
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:24.720
But if you're enthusiastic, there are ways that you can start to ring fence some time to support research.
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:27.119
It comes to me listening to that.
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:39.039
Do you think it's easier to go into this looking at I want to be involved in whatever research is going on locally in a sort of broad sense, or to have actually there's these trials I know of that are going to be opening.
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:41.359
I'd like to do this, this is my specialty area.
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:42.400
Do you think it matters?
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:45.440
Is one easier than the other if you're starting out on this?
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:49.599
You want to be involved in the research that's important to you.
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:52.400
There is work attached to this.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.119
I'm trying to not use jargon because I realize research can be quite jargonistic.
00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:05.680
If you're going to be a PI, a principal investigator, so the person that leads a particular study in your site, then there's work attached to that.
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:10.799
And you know, there's form filling and you know, there's admin and all these things attached to it.
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:15.039
So you need to feel enthusiastic about the study you're supporting.
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:24.400
And again, I would just go back to NHS England, the RDN in Scotland, NHS Research Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland have their own schemes.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:42.960
They have people within each of the disciplines, within each of the old ages that are coordinating research in the region that you work in, and they can tell you the high-profile studies that are looking for new sites, or that maybe already have a site but have stalled because they've got no one supporting them.
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:44.960
That's the conversation I would have.
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:55.200
And there's often a bit of a catalogue of studies that are available, and you can choose the one that you find most interesting and that suits the skills mix that you have with the skills mix in your team.
00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:11.359
Certainly, speaking to colleagues about this, I mean, there's it seems a lot of variation as to exactly how people different setup in different sites and different parts of the country in terms of people have the time and the resources that they get for being involved in research.
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:21.680
But stressing again, research and development departments, in hospitals, in health boards, research does bring in a number of benefits.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:23.759
There's a lot you can make to sell your case.
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:33.599
We talked a little bit about obviously there's funding for certain trials, particularly if you are a principal investigator, but it also brings certain resources into your clinical practice.
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:38.960
We've seen that in some stroke trials that have been in certain my local departments.
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:41.519
It's brought some access to bits of equipment.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:47.759
In other specialties, it might be about access to current cutting-edge medications and things like that.
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:55.359
And generally, it's often considered a priority of an organization when you look at what you know health boards describe as their priorities.
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.079
They talk about research, they like the profile it brings.
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:04.079
So there's a lot you can make to bolster your case about having some time in your job plan to do this.
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:11.200
We were talking before about I know colleagues that have been involved in things like the NIHR green shoots.
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:13.440
I think some of the names are changing.
00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:25.680
So when you Google this, there are a lot of names out there, and I think things evolve, but it sounds like your advice would be to find someone like the area lead and take their advice on what's current and what's coming forward.
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:33.440
That's absolutely what to do because it's such a dynamic space, but much more so maybe than you might be used to in other aspects of the NHS.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.000
That research space is changing all the time.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:42.400
Nationally, a couple of years ago, we had a clinical research network and now we have something different.
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:44.880
We have a research delivery network, an RDN.
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:48.559
The RDN just released their vision for the next decade.
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:50.240
And it's worth having a look at that, actually.
00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:51.039
It's online.
00:25:51.519 --> 00:26:00.799
But with that change, it means the names of schemes and the details of schemes are always in a bit of a dynamic state of flux, but there are schemes there.
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:07.680
It's finding someone that has a bit of a roadmap for you and it can point you in the direction of things that are going to be most useful.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:18.720
So one of the other questions that kind of comes out of this, it's all on a similar line, but we're talking about this about getting involved in research, existing trials in general terms.
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:20.799
Sometimes people have an idea.
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:26.160
They've seen something, they've observed something, they really want to know, well, how would I even take this forward?
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:36.640
Perhaps you wouldn't recommend that as a starting position for research, but some people do blaze trails, and you know, that is how they start with an idea and trying to create their own trial.
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:45.759
Do you have any thoughts or tips on where people start if they've got, say, an observation, something in clinical practice that they think this could be something we should do more research in?
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.079
I mean, here's one of my biases.
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.839
I think the very best clinical research questions come from clinical practice.
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:55.119
You know, when you're on the ward round and you think, why am I doing this?
00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:56.559
Is this helpful?
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.079
Surely we can do it better.
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:03.039
Those are the questions that lead to then practice-changing research and practice-changing trials.
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:08.160
And again, you don't need to be in the ivory tower of the university to have those ideas.
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:11.599
If anything, it's better if you're immersed in the reality of the NHS.
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:15.119
So, how do you go from the question to the study?
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:20.640
You mentioned the course that the ENRA College run around systematic review.
00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:24.000
A good thing to do is just check, has this already been answered?
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:29.599
Because you'd be surprised how many things the research is out there, it just hasn't been implemented yet.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:37.839
So, you know, working with an NHS librarian, having a look to see, you know, this idea that I have, you know, do we actually already know the answer?
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:42.319
If you don't, then you're in a good place to start doing things about it.
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:44.400
And there's various ways you can do that.
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:55.519
There are commission calls from major funders, and there are routes into giving them suggestions for what those commission calls should be.
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.559
I'm going to sound like a broken record here.
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:05.440
Our route into that is through liaising with your regional lead through the RDM, and then they can connect you to national bodies.
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:13.279
Different disciplines from time to time, you might see research prioritization exercises often led by the James Lynde Alliance.
00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:17.200
So there was one in stroke a couple of years ago, there was one in dementia a couple of years ago.
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:18.640
Engage with those things.
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:23.119
That's another way of getting ideas out there and seeing if they land with other people.
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:31.440
And I guess if you're in a place where there are links with the university, this is where you want to start speaking to those academics.
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:40.079
You've got the ideas, but they've got the connections and the ability to take that and work it up as a grant, a grant that you can still be part of.
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:41.680
And then see that going forward.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:51.519
So various ways I really would encourage people, if they have an idea, to look to see if there are routes they can take to try and realise that idea.
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:56.960
I'm really glad you mentioned librarians there, because I think they're a very underused resource.
00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:59.680
A lot of NHS hospitals have libraries.
00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:06.079
The librarians can be brilliant at helping gather resources, systematically review what's already done.
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:15.359
And obviously, in Scotland, we have the Knowledge Network Scotland, which I think is over 20 years old now and has access to a lot of resources through Open Athens.
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:22.000
And librarians can be really good at helping to understand that and what's available and how to use it as well.
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:25.039
So these are resources worth making more use of.
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:30.720
I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize how helpful they can be and how available they are.
00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:31.359
Great.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:33.359
So we've covered a lot today already.
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:34.480
This was really helpful.
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:36.000
So thank you very much, Professor Quinn.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:48.480
I suppose to sort of wrap things up, do you have any sort of pointers or suggestions for further reading or things to point towards of interest to anyone that's heard this and gone, actually, I do want to think some more about this.
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:49.759
I'll look into it.
00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:50.559
Yeah.
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:58.319
I guess for those people who haven't been fully persuaded, but they still want to support, there are things that they can do.
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:01.839
So talk about research.
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:06.880
The NIHR have launched a flagship program called Be Part of Research.
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:14.559
And it's encouraging the public, but particularly people living with long-term conditions, to register and interest in research.
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:20.559
And when you're seeing patients in clinic or in the wards, you can just mention to them, you're not interested in research.
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:25.839
There might not be a thing right now, but if you register with be part of research, you will get connected with things.
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:34.240
Also, if you're maybe not thinking I want to be directly involved, but I am keen to support, find out about some of the studies that are running.
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:40.319
And if you see people that might be eligible, just give your local PI a nod on the shoulder and tell them.
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:43.119
And I'm sure they'll be very, very grateful for that.
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:46.640
In terms of further reading, I mentioned good clinical practice.
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:51.359
It is worth spending an afternoon going through good clinical practice, getting the certificate.
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:59.200
It's a bullet point on your CV, but it does open up doors to allow you to be part of clinical trials, particularly clinical trials of medicines.
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:09.440
I mentioned before the new RDN strategic plan, definitely worth having a look at that just to see how the whole UK is thinking about clinical research.
00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:14.799
I feel like we keep coming back to the same ideas, but I think I make no apologies for that because they're important.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:24.160
Speak to your local leads, speak to people in your hospital that are involved in research, find out how they did it, and then they can help you do the same.
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:25.519
Absolutely.
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:48.160
And that's in many ways the situation I found myself in with I've joined a department that's got trials ongoing, you know, new ones coming online, and was encouraged to be aware, to be looking out for people that were suitable for recruitment, to have my good clinical practice so that I can be, you know, doing that and can expand from there if I choose to be more and more involved.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:53.920
But even having that level of involvement is enjoyable and helping the department and the team.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:55.920
I know you want to wrap up.
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:59.680
I think the enjoyment bit sometimes people forget about.
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:03.359
It's actually quite good fun being part of research.
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:07.759
And let's be honest, look, there are some bits of the NHS job aren't so fun at the moment.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:15.759
That enjoyment and that discovery and that ability, you know, being part of research really allows you to keep up to date with the real cutting edge of what's happening.
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:17.440
Good stuff.
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:19.440
Think about it, people.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:21.039
Agreed.
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:39.839
Well, if we have convinced people or made people more interested from the Royal College of Physicians Head Invest point of view, I should do one last plug, which is there is a half-day course in March next year called Bridging NHS Care with Curiosity, Clinical Research Unplugged, exploring a bit more about research opportunities.
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:42.640
The details are available on the college website.
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:48.720
And hopefully some of the resources and things we've talked about today are helpful for anyone interested in this topic.
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:59.519
So I'll finish by saying thank you very much to Professor Quinn and wish everybody with an interest a successful journey into being more involved in research in the NHS.
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:01.359
Thank you very much.
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:02.480
Thanks, Luke.
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:03.759
Thanks everyone.
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:08.640
Are you a new consultant trying to settle into your new post-CCT role?
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:10.559
Are you trying to get to grips with your job planning?
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:14.640
Remember how many hours of CPD you need or plan your first education supervision meeting.
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:18.240
Even if you're not, sometimes it can be difficult adjusting to a new role.
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:20.799
The great news is that you're not alone.
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:26.079
You probably have a colleague in your hospital who did all of this just last year, or maybe even the year before.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:27.599
Go and ask them about it.
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:28.720
Buy them a coffee.
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:29.359
Go on.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:36.799
Either way, the recently appointed consultants committee at the RCPE have compiled a top tips guide for recently appointed consultants.
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:41.599
This is a compilation of all of the advice we wish that we'd had when we started.
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:49.920
You can find the top tips for recently appointed consultants at rcpe.ac.uk slash top tips rac.
00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:51.759
We hope it helps.
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:54.799
Okay, the next coffee is definitely on you.
00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:23.600
So, hello and welcome to this episode of Consultant Conversations, brought to you by the Recently Appointed Consultants Committee at the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh.
00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:25.199
My name is Luke Yates.
00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:32.799
I'm a member of the Recently Appointed Consultants Committee and a consultant physician in stroke and geriatric medicine in NHS Lanarkshire.
00:00:33.359 --> 00:00:42.560
This podcast series has been developed to help support early career consultants, and today we're going to be discussing how consultants can be more involved in research.
00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:46.079
I'm delighted to be joined today by Professor Terry Quinn.
00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:54.320
Professor Quinn is a professor of cardiovascular aging and the current David Cargill Chair of Geriatric Medicine at the University of Glasgow.
00:00:54.479 --> 00:01:01.600
He has a wealth of experience in conducting and authoring original research, supporting research and research methodology.
00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:09.680
He is National Lead for Aging for the National Institute for Health and Care Research and National Lead for Aging for NHS Research Scotland.
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And he combines all this with his work as a consultant physician in Stroke and Geriatrics in Glasgow.
00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:18.400
Professor Quinn, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:19.760
Thank you, Luke.
00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:22.079
Looking forward to chatting about research.
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That's exactly.
00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:34.000
We're going to talk about the topic of clinical research, and particularly from the perspective of relatively new consultants who may be interested in being more involved in research alongside their clinical commitments.
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And you're someone who does exactly that.
00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:38.719
You combine clinical work with your research work.
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So I wonder if we can start off with a bit of your own story, telling me how you got to this position, got involved in research as you are now.
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Very happy to do that.
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As is every clinical academic, always very happy to talk about themselves.
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So it's a good place to get started.
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I guess something to say is for people who maybe aren't actively involved in research, they maybe have a perception that clinical academics are born into the world with a microscope and some advanced knowledge of metasynthesis.
00:02:09.120 --> 00:02:10.879
You know, and really that's not the case at all.
00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:12.639
And it's certainly not the case for me.
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When I was in medical school and when I started as a junior doctor, I had a 10-year career plan that really didn't feature research at all.
00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:23.120
And just opportunities came along.
00:02:23.360 --> 00:02:31.039
And I guess that's one of the things that I want to emphasize is for new consultants in many aspects, but particularly with research, look out for opportunities.
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And when they come along, you know, if they seem interesting to you, do take them.
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I see lots and lots of things around how to say no.
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And saying no is important.
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You know, it's important for your mental health, it's important for, you know, having a good work-life balance.
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But sometimes, particularly in the research field, you need to say yes to things that maybe seem a little bit scary because they can really help you and they can add to that really nice portfolio career that I have.
00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:07.599
So, my own background, I started off after junior doctor jobs, knew that I wanted to do geriatric medicine.
00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:18.319
In old money, I did what was then senior house officer jobs, and I applied to be a registrar, was told I was a bit early for that.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:20.240
And that's when an opportunity came along.
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An opportunity came along to work in a stroke research department.
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It was a very clinical pharmacology-based research department, so something quite different for me, but you know, really great learning.
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And through that, I did a higher degree and got the bug for research, went back into training and was fortunate enough to get a little bit of protected time one day a week to try and build an academic CV.
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And also I took opportunities to go to other places to do some learning there.
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So I spent some time in the University of Oxford and then I spent some time with the Cochrane Dementia Group, you know, all you know, within busy clinical training to try and get my skills up.
00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:12.080
And then I was very fortunate to be given a clinical senior lecturer post at the time of my CCT from the Stroke Association.
00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:14.800
And I guess everything else just fell from there.
00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:18.720
So that's my journey, in no way predetermined.
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That's how life is one of the points that prompted me to think this was a good topic to be talking about is recognizing the variation in people's experience of research as they become or approach becoming consultants.
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I have certainly worked with people that knew they wanted to be very academic early on in their careers, went down very academic pathways, or have done PhDs and, you know, lots of research experience long before they reached the end of their training.
00:04:46.879 --> 00:05:05.199
But also lots of people like me who are aware of some research, some involvement supporting it in departments that were doing a lot of it as I went along, but have become a consultant and found myself in a department that's doing lots of research and that is keen for me to be supporting and involved in that, but I'm not coming with an academic background.
00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:19.839
I appreciate I'm starting with a very broad question here, but that open question for consultants, new consultants who are interested in research or aware of opportunities around them, don't have a lot of experience or familiarity with it.
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Where's a good place to start?
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How do you start with, you know, finding out more and making yourself prepared to be more involved?
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I want to answer that by taking a step back.
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And again, one of the things I want to do in this podcast is just challenge some of the stereotypes or misperceptions that people might have.
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So I think a lot of people would consider being involved in research as being synonymous with having a university post or being heavily involved in the university.
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And that's really not the case at all.
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And you can always imagine there's a kind of spectrum of research activity from being someone that's supportive of what's going on, but really, you know, isn't particularly turned on by research, but you know, will support what's going on through to people that are maybe leading on the trials that are happening within their own hospital, right through to those card-carrying clinical academics that maybe do have a university post.
00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.519
And there's room in the world for all of them.
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I want to just share with you, I went at the beginning of my consulting career, I went on a management course about being a clinical research leader.
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And we all had to do a thing called the Miles Briggs personality test.
00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:35.279
And we were told that there was a certain personality to be a research leader, and it completely wasn't me at all.
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And actually, it wasn't half the people in the room.
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And what I took from that is there's no phenotype for being, you know, someone active in research or for being a good researcher.
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Actually, lots of different skills can help support that whole ecosystem.
00:06:50.879 --> 00:07:02.160
And I guess when I was first getting into this in my head, I thought, right, to be involved in research, you have to be brainy, you have to be ballsy, you have to be busy.
00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:09.040
But actually, if I look at people who are really important in driving forward NHS research, they're not always that.
00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:12.000
I mean, they often are pretty intelligent and they often are busy.
00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:22.959
But actually, the people that really drive things forward are people that have good people skills, people that could work in teams, and people that have ideas, people that can think about things and maybe just see beyond the day-to-day of the NHS.
00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.959
Now I realize, look, I've I've completely not answered your question there.
00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:28.959
There's no phenotype.
00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:30.720
Anyone can get involved in this.
00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.439
But your question was around what can people do.
00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:40.240
And I think what people need to do is just start talking to the players in the system.
00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:52.879
So I would recommend, assuming that most of the people listening to this that are working in hospitals, although you don't have to work in a hospital setting to be involved in research, there will be an RI department.
00:07:53.439 --> 00:08:00.240
I can tell you they will be looking for people who could help them deliver commercial and academic trials.
00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:06.800
You'll almost find they bite your hand off if you approach them and say that you're interested in supporting research activity.
00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:15.759
In many hospitals, I realise not all of them, but in many hospitals, there will be people who have quite a lot of research activity in their CV, in their job plan.
00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:19.519
It might not necessarily be in your department, but you know, reach out to them, speak to them.
00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:25.839
They will then signpost you to the other people within your organization that can help you.
00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:35.759
And then going a little bit broader than that, if you're really interested in this, there will be people within your respective regions of the UK that can help.
00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:49.360
So I have the honour and the privilege of being the NIHR RDN lead for aging, but within each area of NHS England, there is a regional lead for aging and also for all of the other old gears.
00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:53.759
Our remit is to help support people who want to support research.
00:08:54.000 --> 00:09:02.399
And if, like you and I, look, you're lucky enough to live in Scotland, there's NHS Research Scotland, and they also have an equivalent scheme and they have people that could help you.
00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:08.000
So reach out, start talking to people, and they can point you in the right direction.
00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:16.399
A really important point you raised that it's not just about universities and you know, obviously these are very important networks as well.
00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:37.919
But I've shared and seen that perspective that it looks like all the researchers have titles like clinical lecturer and have had that for 10 years and they all know each other very well, and then, you know, actually looking for more local resources and you know, people that can support getting you in the right places and understanding what's available locally.
00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:46.159
In terms of, you know, if you're someone who's pursuing getting more involved, they want to learn more about, you know, the topic of research.
00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:54.639
Are there particular kind of qualifications or learning that's really quite important to get your foot in that door and have, say, you're in a position to start?
00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:57.919
There's formal and informal learning.
00:09:58.159 --> 00:10:04.720
And I think I've probably learned a lot of what I know about research just sort of through osmosis and through getting involved.
00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:09.360
That's always one good way to learn, but you can complement that with more formal schemes.
00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.679
And I guess you don't want to boil the ocean.
00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:18.399
If you don't have a background in research, don't go into this thinking, right, I immediately want to run lots of clinical trials.
00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:26.159
You build things up a little bit in the same way that you would if you're setting up a new clinical service, you wouldn't immediately just start it and expect to be running the show.
00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:28.480
You know, you you would build it up slowly.
00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:48.159
If I can signpost a few things that I think are useful, if as part of your research support you're thinking about clinical trials, and that's not all of research, but it is a large part of it, it's useful to have done good clinical practice, which is an online course free if you're in the NHS.
00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:59.919
Takes around an afternoon, but that then is a certificate that you have that allows you to be involved in the delivery of clinical trials, particularly clinical trials of medicines.
00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:10.320
The colleges have schemes to NIHR, have a lot of online training, and that begins right through the career.
00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:18.320
So I know this podcast is about new consultants, but there might be people listening who are, you know, in the senior phases of their training.
00:11:18.480 --> 00:11:35.519
And there are schemes like Associate PI run by the NIHR that allow you to become immersed in research in a very supportive way so that when you do get CCT, you're ready to become what we call a principal investigator, a leader of research within the hospital that you work in.
00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:42.559
Again, you know, lots of opportunities there, lots of places to get training, to find out more.
00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:47.120
I think going back to what I said before, reach out to people that are already doing it.
00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:55.440
Probably the most important thing you can have is someone that's a bit of a mentor for research that can just guide you through and signpost you to where the useful things are.
00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:58.240
I think it's worth me mentioning something I found helpful.
00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:03.440
The Royal College of Physicians, Edinburgh, does a course, the systematic review and meta-analysis course.
00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:06.559
And I know you've taught on the faculty of that previously.
00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:10.399
It tends to be on most years, and so I expect it will run again.
00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:16.720
I did that towards the end of my training, surely before I became a consultant, and did find that very helpful.
00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:29.440
And as you say, there's lots of online resources that probably isn't necessary to go and do all of them, but the NIHR website, their learn pages have a lot of sort of intro to research, and to intro to evidence.
00:12:29.519 --> 00:12:38.960
And the Cockbrain website has some really good resources as well, you know, for people trying to learn and get more familiar with the terminology and the words and everything that's used.
00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:45.919
Sometimes when you read these things, they do look like they're pitching for kind of catching people in the early career, getting people involved early.
00:12:46.080 --> 00:12:55.279
But, you know, just to reinforce the points that we're covering here, you're not saying it's too late to get involved if you're already a consultant, you're already in clinical work.
00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:56.159
Absolutely.
00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:57.440
It's never too late.
00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:05.360
And one of the things that I really want to promote is for clinicians to realise the value they bring to research.
00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:12.960
So again, if you maybe haven't had a career where to date you've been involved in a lot of things, you might think, well, you know, what can I offer?
00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:14.639
And actually, you can offer loads.
00:13:14.720 --> 00:13:25.840
And it's one of the things you realize as you work more with commercial companies is how much they value just the insight and the knowledge you have as a clinician.
00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:33.360
And all the other bits, the jargon of research and you know, how to support research, all of that stuff you can learn.
00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:38.399
But it's on the background of being a really good NHS clinical consultant.
00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:41.039
So, you know, there's no time that's too late.
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:46.879
I don't want anyone listening to this podcast who is potentially interested to think, oh, well, I've got nothing to offer.
00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:56.000
Because actually, you just by virtue of knowing your craft, knowing your specialty, knowing how the NHS works, you've got huge amounts to offer.
00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:02.480
And I know we've talked about this topic in the past ourselves informally.
00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:24.240
You've often described things as, yeah, there are those that find research and interest, they want that to be a regular part of their week, but also a lot of consultants who maybe are more peripherally involved or kind of recognize they could be doing more to support it without necessarily wanting to pursue it as a sort of interest that will could be a big part of their job plan or similar.
00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:40.559
And I think you know, knowing these resources are out there, knowing that it's valued by colleagues and by the NHS to even have a supporting kind of view on things and be familiar with what's happening locally is such a valuable thing for consultants to be engaged with and doing.
00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:44.399
We touched a bit on kind of mindset and personalities and that.
00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:46.720
But for people that are thinking, is this for me?
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:48.639
Is this something I want to pursue?
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:51.679
What do you say to people when they say, what makes a good researcher?
00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:52.799
What do I need to be?
00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:54.639
Is this my sort of thing?
00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:57.840
What do I enjoy or will I enjoy about this?
00:14:58.480 --> 00:14:59.120
I get it.
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:17.360
I still work 50% NHS and I know the reality of the NHS right now and you know how difficult it is, how stretched it is, and how challenging it can be to even think about doing something other than the day-to-day service delivery that just seems to be a time vacuum and take up all of your time.
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:20.960
So I guess what I want to do is two things.
00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:24.159
I'm going to do a little bit of a pitch and I make no apologies for that.
00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:29.279
And then I want to just say where I think the benefits are.
00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:40.960
We aren't doing it on this podcast, but sometimes when people talk about research, they consider it as other, you know, as a thing that exists in isolation to the real work, which is clinical work.
00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:42.960
And that's a mindset that we need to challenge.
00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:53.200
And that, you know, the GMC and the colleges and the NIHR are all trying to challenge that and show that research really is core to what the NHS does, and it's not niche at all.
00:15:53.440 --> 00:16:00.639
There was a report from NIHR that came out this year, and it showed that there's 10,000 frontline research staff in the NHS.
00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:08.480
And you're looking, you know, just in terms of numbers, more than a million people took part in research last year, and that's over four and a half thousand studies.
00:16:08.559 --> 00:16:12.320
So, you know, not a niche part of the NHS at all.
00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:28.720
And by being involved in research, obviously you're creating new knowledge that improves care, but you're also doing things like allowing access to treatments, you know, particularly in fields like oncology, you know, that's how you get access to the new treatments.
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:30.720
People are probably aware of that.
00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:33.919
They're maybe not aware of some of the other benefits that come with research.
00:16:34.480 --> 00:16:37.919
So research stimulates the economy.
00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:40.720
And you know, there's a budget coming up.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.320
I think we're all aware that the economy needs a little bit of stimulation.
00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:46.480
Again, this is data from the NIHR.
00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:51.039
They show that for every pound invested in clinical research, 13 is returned to the economy.
00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:52.480
That's good value.
00:16:53.039 --> 00:17:00.080
And then the other thing is by being involved in research, you're actually supporting the whole NHS ecosystem around you.
00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:02.559
So there's a fact that's banded about a lot.
00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:13.359
Those trusts or those health boards that are actively involved in research have 5% lower mortality than the trusts that aren't actively involved in research.
00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:16.960
Now, if you're an academic, you'll immediately say, Well, that's all confounding.
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:22.640
And that could be true, but I'm just going to go with those absolute figures, 5% lower mortality.
00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:25.359
So that's my pitch.
00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:29.039
That's my pitch about all of the system's benefits.
00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:36.240
If I was being selfish, and I thought, well, what are the benefits for me, or what are the benefits for someone thinking about this?
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:43.440
Something you and I have spoken about before is I think all NHS clinicians need another thing in their life.
00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:49.279
You know, just purely doing NHS services, it's very rewarding, but you need another thing.
00:17:49.759 --> 00:18:02.480
And that thing can be education teaching, it can be management, it can be being involved with the colleges, or it could be research, but you really do need something that sits alongside your clinical practice.
00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:10.079
It's showing time and time again that being involved in research improves your job satisfaction and it reduces burnout.
00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:13.039
And let's be honest, it helps your CV.
00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:20.240
So it helps with career progression, it helps with things like merit awards, distinctions, you know, whatever is applicable where you work.
00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:26.240
So there are benefits to the whole world, but there are benefits for you as well.
00:18:27.440 --> 00:18:28.079
Absolutely.
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:40.960
And following up on some of what you've said there, when I was researching for doing this together, there's been some pretty high-level statements from national organisations about how integral research is to the NHS's work.
00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:50.240
Certainly the Royal Colleges of Physicians and the NIHR put out a statement a couple of years ago, which was called Making Research Everybody's Business.
00:18:50.640 --> 00:19:03.920
Previously, the Scottish Royal Colleges of Physicians and the Academy, the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges and Faculties in Scotland, have sort of contributing to things like the 2020 vision for healthcare in Scotland, have stressed the importance of research.
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:10.000
But something else comes out in these statements, and I think this leads nicely into what we also, a lot of people want to talk about.
00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:12.240
There's good census data on this.
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:15.839
People are interested in research, people recognize the importance of research.
00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:24.000
Most doctors say the thing that's holding them back from being more involved is time, getting time to do it and needing ring-fenced time to do it.
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:33.759
And alongside that, of course, comes the question of funding, both funding for time and then maybe the broader question of, you know, how does a research idea get funded?
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:38.400
Now, obviously, that latter topic is a very big question to cover in a podcast.
00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:44.079
Do you have any high-level tips or suggestions when people are thinking, I'd love to do more research?
00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:45.440
I have no time to do it.
00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:47.519
Where do I even start asking?
00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:48.160
Yeah.
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:49.839
It's a really good question.
00:19:50.000 --> 00:20:00.880
I'm not naive to the fact that there can be good intention, but if you don't have ring-fenced time and a job plan, it's difficult to deliver on that.
00:20:01.119 --> 00:20:02.880
So I guess we're talking about money.
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:07.039
And it's a difficult time to talk about money because the NHS is on its knees.
00:20:07.359 --> 00:20:14.799
The universities, there's a sector-wide financial crisis, and the charities that fund research are also, you know, in a very bad place.
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:18.000
So, you know, there's not a lot of money about, but it doesn't mean that there's no money about.
00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:22.319
And often, if you are enthusiastic about this, money can be found.
00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:26.240
And it's about just, you know, exploring opportunities.
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:41.359
So if I go through just some of the ways, work that we're doing in the RDN, work that's happening in NHS Research Scotland, is about trying to get research activity recognized as direct clinical activity and job plans.
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:44.400
That's an ongoing conversation.
00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:51.200
But you know, there are some disciplines that have made some progress in that, and I think that's a real step in the right direction, and hopefully we'll see more of that.
00:20:52.079 --> 00:21:02.960
Funders of research, so the charities and UKRI, you know, MRC, places like that, they recognize the value of clinicians contributing to research.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:06.240
So there are schemes that will fund some of your time.
00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:22.480
And there are specific schemes for people who are consultants that have never done research, and there are schemes for those people who maybe did some research early in their training and then have kind of left that to one side because they wanted to focus on upskilling as an NHS consultant for them to come back.
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:24.480
There's schemes there as well.
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:31.200
Through NIHR and through NHS Research Scotland, there are also some schemes that will buy some of your time.
00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:37.359
These schemes have different names and they're dynamic, they're changing all the time, but they're out there.
00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:42.880
So for example, NHS Research Scotland has a scheme that will buy one or two sessions.
00:21:43.920 --> 00:21:52.799
The quid pro quo is you need to use those sessions to support some of the activity that's happening in your hospital, but it also gives you time to start to develop your own ideas.
00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:59.759
And then there's always, and this is something that we're much more aware of now, following things like the O'Shaughnessy report, there's the income that comes.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:01.839
From commercial trial activity.
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.160
Very attractive to hospitals.
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:14.480
And if you're willing to support commercial trial activity, you can find you can get to a place that that money that you generate through that can then be used to start to buy some of your time.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:18.400
So you know there are options there, they're not always easy to find.
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:24.720
But if you're enthusiastic, there are ways that you can start to ring fence some time to support research.
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:27.119
It comes to me listening to that.
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:39.039
Do you think it's easier to go into this looking at I want to be involved in whatever research is going on locally in a sort of broad sense, or to have actually there's these trials I know of that are going to be opening.
00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:41.359
I'd like to do this, this is my specialty area.
00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:42.400
Do you think it matters?
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:45.440
Is one easier than the other if you're starting out on this?
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:49.599
You want to be involved in the research that's important to you.
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:52.400
There is work attached to this.
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.119
I'm trying to not use jargon because I realize research can be quite jargonistic.
00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:05.680
If you're going to be a PI, a principal investigator, so the person that leads a particular study in your site, then there's work attached to that.
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:10.799
And you know, there's form filling and you know, there's admin and all these things attached to it.
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:15.039
So you need to feel enthusiastic about the study you're supporting.
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:24.400
And again, I would just go back to NHS England, the RDN in Scotland, NHS Research Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland have their own schemes.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:42.960
They have people within each of the disciplines, within each of the old ages that are coordinating research in the region that you work in, and they can tell you the high-profile studies that are looking for new sites, or that maybe already have a site but have stalled because they've got no one supporting them.
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:44.960
That's the conversation I would have.
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:55.200
And there's often a bit of a catalogue of studies that are available, and you can choose the one that you find most interesting and that suits the skills mix that you have with the skills mix in your team.
00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:11.359
Certainly, speaking to colleagues about this, I mean, there's it seems a lot of variation as to exactly how people different setup in different sites and different parts of the country in terms of people have the time and the resources that they get for being involved in research.
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:21.680
But stressing again, research and development departments, in hospitals, in health boards, research does bring in a number of benefits.
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:23.759
There's a lot you can make to sell your case.
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:33.599
We talked a little bit about obviously there's funding for certain trials, particularly if you are a principal investigator, but it also brings certain resources into your clinical practice.
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:38.960
We've seen that in some stroke trials that have been in certain my local departments.
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:41.519
It's brought some access to bits of equipment.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:47.759
In other specialties, it might be about access to current cutting-edge medications and things like that.
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:55.359
And generally, it's often considered a priority of an organization when you look at what you know health boards describe as their priorities.
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.079
They talk about research, they like the profile it brings.
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:04.079
So there's a lot you can make to bolster your case about having some time in your job plan to do this.
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:11.200
We were talking before about I know colleagues that have been involved in things like the NIHR green shoots.
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:13.440
I think some of the names are changing.
00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:25.680
So when you Google this, there are a lot of names out there, and I think things evolve, but it sounds like your advice would be to find someone like the area lead and take their advice on what's current and what's coming forward.
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:33.440
That's absolutely what to do because it's such a dynamic space, but much more so maybe than you might be used to in other aspects of the NHS.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:36.000
That research space is changing all the time.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:42.400
Nationally, a couple of years ago, we had a clinical research network and now we have something different.
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:44.880
We have a research delivery network, an RDN.
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:48.559
The RDN just released their vision for the next decade.
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:50.240
And it's worth having a look at that, actually.
00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:51.039
It's online.
00:25:51.519 --> 00:26:00.799
But with that change, it means the names of schemes and the details of schemes are always in a bit of a dynamic state of flux, but there are schemes there.
00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:07.680
It's finding someone that has a bit of a roadmap for you and it can point you in the direction of things that are going to be most useful.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:18.720
So one of the other questions that kind of comes out of this, it's all on a similar line, but we're talking about this about getting involved in research, existing trials in general terms.
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:20.799
Sometimes people have an idea.
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:26.160
They've seen something, they've observed something, they really want to know, well, how would I even take this forward?
00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:36.640
Perhaps you wouldn't recommend that as a starting position for research, but some people do blaze trails, and you know, that is how they start with an idea and trying to create their own trial.
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:45.759
Do you have any thoughts or tips on where people start if they've got, say, an observation, something in clinical practice that they think this could be something we should do more research in?
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.079
I mean, here's one of my biases.
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.839
I think the very best clinical research questions come from clinical practice.
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:55.119
You know, when you're on the ward round and you think, why am I doing this?
00:26:55.599 --> 00:26:56.559
Is this helpful?
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.079
Surely we can do it better.
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:03.039
Those are the questions that lead to then practice-changing research and practice-changing trials.
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:08.160
And again, you don't need to be in the ivory tower of the university to have those ideas.
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:11.599
If anything, it's better if you're immersed in the reality of the NHS.
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:15.119
So, how do you go from the question to the study?
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:20.640
You mentioned the course that the ENRA College run around systematic review.
00:27:20.960 --> 00:27:24.000
A good thing to do is just check, has this already been answered?
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:29.599
Because you'd be surprised how many things the research is out there, it just hasn't been implemented yet.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:37.839
So, you know, working with an NHS librarian, having a look to see, you know, this idea that I have, you know, do we actually already know the answer?
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:42.319
If you don't, then you're in a good place to start doing things about it.
00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:44.400
And there's various ways you can do that.
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:55.519
There are commission calls from major funders, and there are routes into giving them suggestions for what those commission calls should be.
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.559
I'm going to sound like a broken record here.
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:05.440
Our route into that is through liaising with your regional lead through the RDM, and then they can connect you to national bodies.
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:13.279
Different disciplines from time to time, you might see research prioritization exercises often led by the James Lynde Alliance.
00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:17.200
So there was one in stroke a couple of years ago, there was one in dementia a couple of years ago.
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:18.640
Engage with those things.
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:23.119
That's another way of getting ideas out there and seeing if they land with other people.
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:31.440
And I guess if you're in a place where there are links with the university, this is where you want to start speaking to those academics.
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:40.079
You've got the ideas, but they've got the connections and the ability to take that and work it up as a grant, a grant that you can still be part of.
00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:41.680
And then see that going forward.
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:51.519
So various ways I really would encourage people, if they have an idea, to look to see if there are routes they can take to try and realise that idea.
00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:56.960
I'm really glad you mentioned librarians there, because I think they're a very underused resource.
00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:59.680
A lot of NHS hospitals have libraries.
00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:06.079
The librarians can be brilliant at helping gather resources, systematically review what's already done.
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:15.359
And obviously, in Scotland, we have the Knowledge Network Scotland, which I think is over 20 years old now and has access to a lot of resources through Open Athens.
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:22.000
And librarians can be really good at helping to understand that and what's available and how to use it as well.
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:25.039
So these are resources worth making more use of.
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:30.720
I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize how helpful they can be and how available they are.
00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:31.359
Great.
00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:33.359
So we've covered a lot today already.
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:34.480
This was really helpful.
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:36.000
So thank you very much, Professor Quinn.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:48.480
I suppose to sort of wrap things up, do you have any sort of pointers or suggestions for further reading or things to point towards of interest to anyone that's heard this and gone, actually, I do want to think some more about this.
00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:49.759
I'll look into it.
00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:50.559
Yeah.
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:58.319
I guess for those people who haven't been fully persuaded, but they still want to support, there are things that they can do.
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:01.839
So talk about research.
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:06.880
The NIHR have launched a flagship program called Be Part of Research.
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:14.559
And it's encouraging the public, but particularly people living with long-term conditions, to register and interest in research.
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:20.559
And when you're seeing patients in clinic or in the wards, you can just mention to them, you're not interested in research.
00:30:20.799 --> 00:30:25.839
There might not be a thing right now, but if you register with be part of research, you will get connected with things.
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:34.240
Also, if you're maybe not thinking I want to be directly involved, but I am keen to support, find out about some of the studies that are running.
00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:40.319
And if you see people that might be eligible, just give your local PI a nod on the shoulder and tell them.
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:43.119
And I'm sure they'll be very, very grateful for that.
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:46.640
In terms of further reading, I mentioned good clinical practice.
00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:51.359
It is worth spending an afternoon going through good clinical practice, getting the certificate.
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:59.200
It's a bullet point on your CV, but it does open up doors to allow you to be part of clinical trials, particularly clinical trials of medicines.
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:09.440
I mentioned before the new RDN strategic plan, definitely worth having a look at that just to see how the whole UK is thinking about clinical research.
00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:14.799
I feel like we keep coming back to the same ideas, but I think I make no apologies for that because they're important.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:24.160
Speak to your local leads, speak to people in your hospital that are involved in research, find out how they did it, and then they can help you do the same.
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:25.519
Absolutely.
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:48.160
And that's in many ways the situation I found myself in with I've joined a department that's got trials ongoing, you know, new ones coming online, and was encouraged to be aware, to be looking out for people that were suitable for recruitment, to have my good clinical practice so that I can be, you know, doing that and can expand from there if I choose to be more and more involved.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:53.920
But even having that level of involvement is enjoyable and helping the department and the team.
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:55.920
I know you want to wrap up.
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:59.680
I think the enjoyment bit sometimes people forget about.
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:03.359
It's actually quite good fun being part of research.
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:07.759
And let's be honest, look, there are some bits of the NHS job aren't so fun at the moment.
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:15.759
That enjoyment and that discovery and that ability, you know, being part of research really allows you to keep up to date with the real cutting edge of what's happening.
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:17.440
Good stuff.
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:19.440
Think about it, people.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:21.039
Agreed.
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:39.839
Well, if we have convinced people or made people more interested from the Royal College of Physicians Head Invest point of view, I should do one last plug, which is there is a half-day course in March next year called Bridging NHS Care with Curiosity, Clinical Research Unplugged, exploring a bit more about research opportunities.
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:42.640
The details are available on the college website.
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:48.720
And hopefully some of the resources and things we've talked about today are helpful for anyone interested in this topic.
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:59.519
So I'll finish by saying thank you very much to Professor Quinn and wish everybody with an interest a successful journey into being more involved in research in the NHS.
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:01.359
Thank you very much.
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:02.480
Thanks, Luke.
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:03.759
Thanks everyone.
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:08.640
Are you a new consultant trying to settle into your new post-CCT role?
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:10.559
Are you trying to get to grips with your job planning?
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:14.640
Remember how many hours of CPD you need or plan your first education supervision meeting.
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:18.240
Even if you're not, sometimes it can be difficult adjusting to a new role.
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:20.799
The great news is that you're not alone.
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:26.079
You probably have a colleague in your hospital who did all of this just last year, or maybe even the year before.
00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:27.599
Go and ask them about it.
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:28.720
Buy them a coffee.
00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:29.359
Go on.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:36.799
Either way, the recently appointed consultants committee at the RCPE have compiled a top tips guide for recently appointed consultants.
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:41.599
This is a compilation of all of the advice we wish that we'd had when we started.
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:49.920
You can find the top tips for recently appointed consultants at rcpe.ac.uk slash top tips rac.
00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:51.759
We hope it helps.
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:54.799
Okay, the next coffee is definitely on you.
