From Walkthroughs to Wins with Justin Baeder

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Welcome back to another episode of C3. I'm Courtney Groskin and I'm here with Sandy Heiser.
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We're so excited to welcome Sandy to the podcast. Sandy, can you tell us a little
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bit about yourself and how you ended up here?
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Sure, I'm happy to be here. This happens to be my 30th year in education.
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I started as a high school social studies teacher, but I taught high school,
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middle school, and I became a middle school instructional coach in 2009.
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And it really changed the way I looked at education.
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I loved that job so much. From there, I ended up going into administration.
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So I've been an assistant principal at the middle high school level.
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I've been a middle school principal.
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And then currently, I am serving as an assistant principal at Skyline High School here in St. Brayne.
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So you really bring an administrative perspective along with your coaching perspective,
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as well as that middle school perspective as well.
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So you're going to really help us to deepen our conversations on C3.
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Yeah, I hope so. I definitely know the administrator side of things,
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but really do try to approach it with a coaching perspective as much as I can.
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Yeah, thank you for that.
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We would like to welcome Justin Bader to C3. Dr.
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Justin Bader is the director of the Principal Center, an organization dedicated
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to enhancing instructional leadership in K-12 education with a Ph.D.
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In educational leadership and policy studies from the University of Washington
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and a master's in curriculum and instruction from Seattle University.
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Dr. Bader combines academic expertise with practical experience.
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He previously served as a principal and teacher in Seattle Public Schools.
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Dr. Bader is the creator of the Instructional Leadership Challenge,
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a program that has supported over 10,000 school leaders across 50 countries
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in making daily classroom visits a consistent practice.
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He is also the author of Now We're Talking, 21 Days to High Performance Instructional
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Leadership, and co-author of Mapping Professional Practice, How to Develop Instructional
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Frameworks to Support Teacher Growth.
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Welcome, Justin. Thanks so much for being on C3. Can you tell us about yourself?
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Sure thing. Well, thank you, Courtney.
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I'm honored to be here and excited to talk about instructional leadership.
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I'm driven by, I don't want to say regret, but reflection on my own time as
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a teacher and principal and, you know, always wanting to be the one who gives good feedback, right?
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I think every principal wants to give good feedback. Every instructional coach
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wants to give good feedback.
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And we all have that, you know, kind of if I knew then what I think I know now,
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maybe things could have been even better than they were.
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But I had a great experience as a principal, got to work with a lot of great
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teachers in Seattle Public Schools.
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And for the last 13 years, I've been an independent consultant and author at
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the Principal Center where I try to help administrators get into classrooms
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and have good feedback conversations that change teacher practice.
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And as a result of that, make better decisions at the school level.
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I think that's a lot of the connection for me is decision making at the school level.
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If we can get into conversations with teachers every single day,
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every decision we make as leaders is going to be better. So that's kind of where I'm coming from.
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And I know I can tell this is resonating with Sandy. She's an administrator,
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so I can see her eyes lighting up of like, tell me all the things.
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Well, it's that time too, right? I was in classrooms today doing some informal
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observation. And it's goal setting time as well.
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So it's so relevant what you're talking about. Well, I think so much of what
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we do in the evaluation process from goal setting to formal observations to
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written evaluations is so high stakes precisely because we have so few at bats, right?
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We might do one or two formal observations and that's it for the year.
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So there's a lot of stress, understandably, around this process for teachers.
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There's a lot of stress for administrators.
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And my general take is that the more we make this a normal thing to do,
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the less stressful each individual interaction is.
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And that really increases the chances that it'll be a good interaction, right?
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That it'll be a good conversation. It's like it's kind of like saying,
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all right, you are going to meet the love of your life, but you only get to
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go on one date and then you have to make a decision.
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It's like, well, that sounds like a good setup for a reality TV show,
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but not how I would want to live my life.
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Oh, my gosh. You're so right. And you're so and and I feel like with all the
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administrators I've ever worked with, the area where they typically feel the
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most unsure is teacher evaluation every time.
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So your work is so important.
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And it's full of high stakes decisions that are based on only a fraction of
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the information that exists, right?
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If I'm good at observations, I do everything I'm supposed to do,
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I'm still going to see what 0.1% of a teacher's teaching in a given year.
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And if I'm really consistent in getting into classrooms, I might see 1%.
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And yet we have to make decisions on the basis of that tiny,
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tiny proportion of the whole that we see. So yeah, I think the more we can get
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perspective from teachers, the better decisions we're going to make.
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Yeah. Well, with that, why don't I start off our first question?
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You've written about the importance of feedback being both clear and actionable.
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So what do you see as the key ingredients of a feedback conversation that actually
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leads to a shift in practice?
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I think the first key to a feedback conversation that changes practice,
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and this is going to be kind of step zero, is it has to actually happen.
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And when I talk to people about their goals for classroom walkthroughs or their
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goals for feedback conversations, they often describe to me a very complex process
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that doesn't seem very doable.
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And I think we often let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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So we generate these very complex processes that don't seem likely to be sustainable,
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that don't seem likely to occur on a consistent basis.
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So I think the first design consideration when we're planning how we're going
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to approach conversations is, is this something that realistically we can do
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over and over again, every single day, or pretty close to every single day?
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And from there, we can build in the elements that are going to have the impact that we want.
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But often we work the opposite direction and we think, how could I achieve all
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of my wildest dreams as an instructional leader in one conversation,
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go, and then we develop a process that's so complex, so cumbersome that it just doesn't happen.
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And I think that's the number one scenario, the number one circumstance that
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people find themselves in is that they have a really great process that they never actually do.
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Yeah, and if you can't carry it forward, why are we going through the motions?
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We have to launch, right? Exactly. So many leaders worry about balancing encouragement
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with constructive critique.
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How can feedback conversations strike the right tone so that teachers feel supported
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but also motivated to make change?
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I think there does come a time when we need to share critical information with
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someone, either because they are not aware of it and we need to make them aware
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so that they can decide what to do, or after they're aware,
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if they haven't done anything about it, so that we can push for that change that needs to occur.
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I think most of the time, though, these conversations can happen without that
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kind of positive and negative judgment on the part of the coach or administrator.
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And that's the best case scenario to me, because I think in order to change
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their practice, we want teachers to have as much ownership as possible,
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right? We want teachers to say, okay, I am a self-directed learner.
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You can help me a lot by being in my classroom and talking with me about my practice.
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But I, as a professional, am going to improve faster if I retain ownership of that practice.
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And that doesn't always work, right? People sometimes don't retain ownership
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of their practice. But that's what we want to strive for, right?
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That people can be professionals.
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That people can be self-directed.
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So i think the framework that i
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use for thinking about that issue is is
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one of autonomy and i think of it like a two by two grid and
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i've gotten published in an article here or there but
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i think about attention and control and i think for most teachers they don't
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get paid very much attention to and i remember in my final year in the classroom
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thinking you know what nobody's really paying that much attention to what i'm
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doing day to day as a teacher so i think the norm is that people don't pay very
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much attention to teachers most of the time, right?
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They're in their classroom with their students and nobody else is paying attention.
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So if you are getting into classrooms, if you are talking with teachers,
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you're definitely in that small percentage of people who are approaching it differently.
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So I think our obligation as instructional leaders is to pay attention,
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to show up, to engage, to talk, to listen, to be curious, and to get teachers
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telling us about their practice and about their thinking.
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The second axis of the autonomy matrix is control.
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Control and sometimes we do need to exert control because
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unacceptable things are happening right we do need to be directive and
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say hey this is really not okay you can't do that or you need to be doing this
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and you're not so it's appropriate sometimes to be directive but i think often
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when we're directive we take away the autonomy that teachers need to actually
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do the professional work of teaching and make their own decisions right
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And I think we can look at a couple of different things that can change as a result of feedback.
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And the most basic one is behavior. So if we have a behavior that is unacceptable
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on the teacher's part and the behavior needs to change, well,
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that is a time when we could give directive feedback and be critical and say,
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hey, this is not working or this is not acceptable. I really need you to do X, Y, Z.
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And, you know, we kind of know those situations when we come to them.
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They tend to be those kind of bright lines that stand out to us,
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but they don't apply That, you know, that directive frame,
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that directive relationship doesn't really apply to most of the decisions that
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teachers make to most of what we see, especially for people who are doing fine.
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You know, if you have someone who's doing fine, it doesn't really help for me
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to be the decision maker about your practice, right?
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We need teachers to retain that ownership of their practice so that we can be a reflective partner.
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So I think of that role as much more of a coaching role, where it's our job
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to get at the decision-making that teachers are doing and have an influence
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at the level of decision-making, rather than simply just kind of second-guess
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and critique what we saw.
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So i'm very much about that teacher
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autonomy and i think when we get a high degree
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of information we're paying a lot of attention but we're not exercising a lot
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of control over the teacher's practice we're not being directive when we don't
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need to be that's when we have what i call professional autonomy now in the
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shift from ignoring teachers and staying out of their classrooms and leaving
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them completely alone sometimes we go to the opposite extreme and go from low attention,
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low control to high attention, high control.
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And I think sometimes we aspire to that because we think it would give us the
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opportunity to help people improve more.
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But what I think that often turns out to be is micromanagement.
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When we exert a high degree of control over someone else's professional work,
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I don't know a better term for that than micromanagement because if it's professional
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work, the professional needs to own it. And the professional who needs to own it is not me.
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It's the teacher in the classroom doing the teaching. So I think we need to,
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as much as possible, avoid grabbing the steering wheel in teachers' classrooms.
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Unless there's a serious issue that needs an immediate change,
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I think we want teachers to have their hands on the wheel most of the time. Nope, getting.
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Courtney, this is making me think so much about cognitive coaching right now.
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Courtney and I are facilitating the foundation seminar right now of cognitive
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coaching and everything you're saying, Justin,
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just trying to create self-directed people and have people own their own journey
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and their own progress. It's everything you just said.
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Sandy, it's like you were reading my mind. Yes.
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In your experience, what are some common pitfalls leaders fall into during feedback
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conversations that maybe make them less effective or even counterproductive?
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Yeah, I think one choice that we make sometimes is to do a postmortem on the
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lesson rather than to just get the teacher's reflections on the lesson.
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And sometimes we do that postmortem so that we have the opportunity to suggest
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what could have been done differently.
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But I think that type of feedback or that type of critique is too late to really
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make any difference in terms of what actually happens during the lesson,
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right? The lesson is over.
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Our opportunity in these conversations is really at the level of teacher judgment, right?
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When we're trying to improve teaching, we're not just focused on,
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you know, the physical actions, the things that took place on that particular day.
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Our big leverage on teaching practice is on professional judgment because professional
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judgment is what guides those decisions every single day.
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So if I saw something in a lesson that I didn't think was very great,
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maybe time was wasted, maybe something was unclear, maybe I didn't like the
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way behavior was handled, I can critique that, but I have to recognize that that's a postmortem.
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It's second-guessing what the teacher did. And what I'm really interested in
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for the purposes of change and growth and improvement is what's the judgment behind that decision?
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What's going on in the teacher's mind that led to that choice that I didn't
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particularly love? That's what I'm interested in.
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And yet we have to be very careful about how we ask that because,
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you know, if we're not careful, that can be, what were you thinking?
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Why did you do that? And of course, that's kind of a confrontational question.
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So I think a better way to frame that is curiosity.
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You know, tell me about what went into that. Tell me, you know,
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what was kind of going through your mind when that student got up and started
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walking around the room.
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And if we press for elaboration rather
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than justification we learn a lot more and we can
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figure out okay why did they do what they did it's not
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enough for me to just say you should have done something different i'm trying
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to develop a person who will independently have judgment that i'm happier with
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right that i don't have to come around and second guess because we're on the
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same page as far as the thinking and the decision making but often we don't
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get to the why behind the decision and asking why directly makes people defensive.
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So I think we've really got to press for elaboration and ask open-ended questions
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that get people to share their thinking.
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I think that's the most valuable thing we can do in a feedback conversation
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is get the teacher to share their thinking because their thinking is what produced
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the teaching that we sought.
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It's so important to give them the space for self-reflection and then to walk
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through that metacognitive process of like, what were the decisions that you made?
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If you were to go back again, would you make that same decision and really get
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them to recognize those metacognitive cues of what would be different maybe the next time?
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Well, and I think often the answers that we get when we press for elaboration
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or the insights that we get about the teacher's thinking leave us wanting to
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change something that we may not be able to change in the moment,
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right? We want to immediately fix it. We want to give advice.
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And when it comes to professional judgment, often there's not a quick fix, right?
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I can't just tell someone, do better, right? Right.
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It's it's it's a very limited ability that teachers have to just do better when
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we say do better. Like you made a dumb decision.
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Don't make dumb decisions. Well, that's not very, you know, we would be pretty
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upset if a coach told our kid that on the on the field.
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And that's not especially useful. So we have to kind of unpack the,
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you know, the background.
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For example, one reason I think that at the elementary level,
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we often see teachers struggle to teach math is that they don't have a strong
00:16:13.047 --> 00:16:14.327
content background in math.
00:16:14.467 --> 00:16:17.027
Math was not their favorite subject. They didn't do particularly well in math.
00:16:17.327 --> 00:16:20.587
And that's not something we can fix by giving feedback. Hey,
00:16:20.707 --> 00:16:23.767
be better at math. Well, that is absolutely useless as feedback.
00:16:23.927 --> 00:16:29.147
But what it is useful for is our decision making. We might realize at the school
00:16:29.147 --> 00:16:33.947
level, or I might have a few people that I need to send for training in a particular area.
00:16:34.287 --> 00:16:38.067
That's the kind of action that we could take that would actually improve the teacher's judgment.
00:16:38.327 --> 00:16:41.867
Me saying, hey, be better at this or, you know, don't do what you did.
00:16:41.967 --> 00:16:45.727
Do what I would have done in your shoes. You know, that's not going to be nearly as helpful.
00:16:46.527 --> 00:16:50.027
Yeah, nine times out of ten, most teachers know their areas of weakness.
00:16:50.367 --> 00:16:54.567
So instead of highlighting them, how do we build capacity and get them what
00:16:54.567 --> 00:16:56.787
they need so they can elevate their practice?
00:16:57.747 --> 00:17:02.967
Yeah. And if it was something that is fixable through second-guessing,
00:17:03.087 --> 00:17:05.667
who's the best person to do that second-guessing, right?
00:17:05.747 --> 00:17:09.647
It's the teacher who is sitting there reflecting with you and is eager to show
00:17:09.647 --> 00:17:13.987
that they're ready and willing to improve. So often we don't need to be the
00:17:13.987 --> 00:17:15.927
ones, you know, grabbing the steering wheel there.
00:17:16.387 --> 00:17:19.327
If people know, hey, here's an opportunity I missed. Here's what I could do
00:17:19.327 --> 00:17:21.287
differently. Here's what I'll be on the lookout for next time.
00:17:22.527 --> 00:17:26.867
Yeah, and building this culture of reflection helps people to start doing that
00:17:26.867 --> 00:17:31.287
on their own and coming into a space ready to admit maybe some things that didn't
00:17:31.287 --> 00:17:35.287
go as great versus a situation where they feel they have to come in on the defensive
00:17:35.287 --> 00:17:40.607
and be ready to kind of plead their case of why things didn't go the way they had wanted. Yeah.
00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:46.060
Absolutely. Absolutely. So you alluded to this a little bit earlier,
00:17:46.060 --> 00:17:47.680
but if you could go a little deeper,
00:17:47.900 --> 00:17:51.460
how can school leaders or coaches ensure that feedback isn't just a one-time
00:17:51.460 --> 00:17:56.000
conversation, but part of an ongoing cycle that results in measurable improvement
00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:57.100
in classroom instruction?
00:17:58.300 --> 00:18:02.600
I think we want that impact and we want it quickly and we want it every time.
00:18:02.600 --> 00:18:07.280
So we think, well, I've been getting into classrooms and observing teachers once or twice a year.
00:18:07.460 --> 00:18:09.940
Well, what if I just did that a lot more often?
00:18:10.520 --> 00:18:15.780
Well, one thing that we're going to have to accept is that many of those interactions
00:18:15.780 --> 00:18:18.740
are not going to lead to much. And I think that's okay.
00:18:18.980 --> 00:18:25.120
And I think accepting that is really essential to being consistent about it, right?
00:18:25.300 --> 00:18:29.600
To saying, okay, this is not going to be life-changing every single time.
00:18:29.760 --> 00:18:30.760
Sometimes it's going to be a dud.
00:18:30.980 --> 00:18:34.360
Sometimes I'm going to come into the classroom and the kids are working on essays
00:18:34.360 --> 00:18:37.300
and they're doing great. You know, they're using their time productively.
00:18:37.460 --> 00:18:40.160
They're using what the teacher taught them. But there's not really a lot of
00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:42.020
teaching that I can give feedback on.
00:18:42.300 --> 00:18:47.120
And that's okay. If I'm afraid of that reality, then I'm going to avoid getting
00:18:47.120 --> 00:18:48.400
in the classroom in the first place.
00:18:48.700 --> 00:18:51.760
I have to be willing to say, hey, you know, I stopped by today.
00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:53.980
Looks like students are hard at work. I'll see you later.
00:18:54.500 --> 00:18:58.200
That kind of thing is going to happen all the time if you're in classrooms all the time.
00:18:58.700 --> 00:19:02.520
It doesn't happen if we set it up and say, okay, this is the day.
00:19:02.660 --> 00:19:05.140
This is the high stakes day when you're going to be observed and evaluated.
00:19:05.360 --> 00:19:09.660
Well, then, of course, people put on a dog and pony show to make sure that we see something good.
00:19:10.360 --> 00:19:14.000
But it's kind of fake. You know, it's a little bit artificial.
00:19:14.380 --> 00:19:17.600
And hopefully, it's indicative of what the teacher's capable of.
00:19:17.800 --> 00:19:20.460
But I think everybody knows it's not a normal day.
00:19:21.205 --> 00:19:25.865
Because it's been set aside for this purpose, because it's been so prepared for and anticipated.
00:19:26.285 --> 00:19:30.865
So I think on a normal basis, we just have to expect it's going to be hit or
00:19:30.865 --> 00:19:33.565
miss. We're going to see some things that are really worth talking about.
00:19:33.765 --> 00:19:37.445
And we're going to come when kids are taking a test and there's almost nothing to talk about.
00:19:37.905 --> 00:19:42.865
And what I think some people do in those situations is they try to find something.
00:19:43.745 --> 00:19:46.685
Anything, and that does not work, right?
00:19:46.705 --> 00:19:50.145
If you try to give somebody a suggestion when you don't have any suggestions,
00:19:50.305 --> 00:19:52.805
or you try to give somebody a compliment, when you don't have any compliments,
00:19:53.085 --> 00:19:56.045
people can tell that it's fake, right?
00:19:56.365 --> 00:19:59.145
People can tell that you don't really mean it. You just had to say something.
00:19:59.285 --> 00:20:01.545
You had a box to fill in your mind or on paper.
00:20:02.065 --> 00:20:03.865
And it just doesn't ring true.
00:20:04.445 --> 00:20:08.105
And I think because we know that, we tend to just not engage.
00:20:08.245 --> 00:20:11.125
We just tend to not show up at all when we know, and this is not going to be
00:20:11.125 --> 00:20:14.305
real feedback, but I have to give feedback. So I might as well say something kind of pointless.
00:20:14.545 --> 00:20:17.105
Well, you're going to find something else to do as a school leader.
00:20:17.205 --> 00:20:21.545
You've got plenty else to do, and it's going to keep you from getting into classrooms at all.
00:20:21.725 --> 00:20:25.885
So I think we've just got to lower the stakes and be okay with only some of
00:20:25.885 --> 00:20:29.045
the time feeling like we're having a real impact through those conversations.
00:20:29.545 --> 00:20:33.225
I love that, Justin, because you're talking about it's almost as like permission
00:20:33.225 --> 00:20:37.825
as an administrator if you are a little bit stressed or insecure about instructional
00:20:37.825 --> 00:20:39.205
leadership or evaluation.
00:20:39.505 --> 00:20:43.505
It's like you're giving tools to help people get better at it,
00:20:43.585 --> 00:20:47.145
but also like in a way, give yourself some grace, give yourself a break.
00:20:47.145 --> 00:20:48.425
It doesn't have to be perfect.
00:20:49.526 --> 00:20:54.426
Absolutely. And I think we have in our minds this sweet spot where there's low
00:20:54.426 --> 00:20:58.286
hanging fruit for improvement, right? We see something that we can say something about.
00:20:58.406 --> 00:21:02.206
And just by saying it, just by having a conversation, we can make somebody better.
00:21:02.586 --> 00:21:07.046
That does happen, right? That does happen sometimes, especially with new teachers
00:21:07.046 --> 00:21:09.486
who are making kind of obvious mistakes that we'll be able to see,
00:21:09.686 --> 00:21:11.146
give them some good advice on.
00:21:11.306 --> 00:21:14.626
We can actually see some pretty big improvement. but that's
00:21:14.626 --> 00:21:17.326
kind of rare right like you might have a significant number of
00:21:17.326 --> 00:21:19.986
new teachers and you can stay busy with that for a while but if you
00:21:19.986 --> 00:21:23.266
have lots of veteran teachers who are very strong that was my situation
00:21:23.266 --> 00:21:25.886
as a principal i had lots of people who had been in
00:21:25.886 --> 00:21:30.566
the building for 10 years 20 years 25 years and were just really really good
00:21:30.566 --> 00:21:34.426
so they weren't making obvious mistakes there was not a lot of low-hanging fruit
00:21:34.426 --> 00:21:37.886
people were doing really really well and i realized i'm not gonna be able to
00:21:37.886 --> 00:21:42.386
bluff my way through this and if i do try to find things to critique they're
00:21:42.386 --> 00:21:44.566
going to be very, very petty, right?
00:21:44.606 --> 00:21:48.626
If you are an amazing teacher, if I force myself to critique you,
00:21:48.806 --> 00:21:51.966
that critique is going to have to be about something very minor and very petty,
00:21:51.966 --> 00:21:55.966
or I'm going to have to pick some sort of big philosophical difference to fight
00:21:55.966 --> 00:21:57.786
over, and that's not going to be good either.
00:21:58.146 --> 00:22:01.686
So that's one extreme. We have people who are great and don't need that kind
00:22:01.686 --> 00:22:03.106
of low-hanging fruit feedback.
00:22:03.346 --> 00:22:07.986
On the other hand, we might have people who are struggling so much that our
00:22:07.986 --> 00:22:10.826
words alone are not enough to get them where they need to be.
00:22:10.906 --> 00:22:15.026
They need some sort of more intensive help, whether that is training,
00:22:15.186 --> 00:22:17.206
whether that is coaching, whether that is somebody sitting in their classroom
00:22:17.206 --> 00:22:21.666
with them and guiding them, whether that is a change in their responsibilities.
00:22:22.046 --> 00:22:25.666
So most of the time, we're outside of that sweet spot. We're outside of that
00:22:25.666 --> 00:22:28.246
range where there's easy feedback that can change practice.
00:22:28.486 --> 00:22:32.806
And we're working with people who either don't need that feedback or it's not enough.
00:22:33.006 --> 00:22:37.266
And I think we've just got to recognize that reality and not try to force those
00:22:37.266 --> 00:22:41.086
other situations into the, you know, the low-hanging fruit situation.
00:22:42.166 --> 00:22:48.146
Well, if a leader wants to elevate their feedback practice, what is one strategy
00:22:48.146 --> 00:22:51.706
or shift you would suggest they try in their very next conversation?
00:22:52.386 --> 00:22:55.866
This is a strategy, but a mindset of curiosity.
00:22:56.366 --> 00:23:03.106
I think assuming that we don't know everything based on what we saw is one of
00:23:03.106 --> 00:23:04.866
the most important things we can do as leaders.
00:23:05.066 --> 00:23:07.946
After getting into classrooms in the first place, if we
00:23:07.946 --> 00:23:10.766
just think okay there's thinking here that i'm not
00:23:10.766 --> 00:23:13.826
privy to we're headed somewhere and you know the students are headed somewhere in
00:23:13.826 --> 00:23:16.666
this unit that i'm not fully up to speed on
00:23:16.666 --> 00:23:22.246
if we can approach that interaction with the teacher with some curiosity we
00:23:22.246 --> 00:23:26.966
will end up in much more productive places because the teacher with their hands
00:23:26.966 --> 00:23:29.646
on the steering wheel will take us there and they'll tell us here's what i'm
00:23:29.646 --> 00:23:33.986
thinking here's what i'm already you know balancing here the trade-offs i'm
00:23:33.986 --> 00:23:35.866
making. Here's where I think we're going.
00:23:36.506 --> 00:23:42.146
Usually that takes us somewhere much more productive than if we just pick something at random to critique.
00:23:42.366 --> 00:23:46.986
So I think that curiosity really is the number one recommendation I have.
00:23:47.933 --> 00:23:51.233
I love that. And just the fact that you, oh, a couple of things going back to
00:23:51.233 --> 00:23:55.033
you talking about just your attention and presence in the classroom.
00:23:55.353 --> 00:24:00.213
Most, many, many teachers who've been in the classroom for a long time are just
00:24:00.213 --> 00:24:05.213
used to evaluation being kind of an afterthought in a lot of cases.
00:24:05.213 --> 00:24:10.373
And then also, so just your presence, your attention, and then that idea you
00:24:10.373 --> 00:24:15.033
just spoke about now, which is just acknowledging that there's a lot going on
00:24:15.033 --> 00:24:19.873
here that I was not part of, is such a big deal for teachers.
00:24:20.873 --> 00:24:25.773
Absolutely. Absolutely. So we're going to shift now to our rapid fire portion
00:24:25.773 --> 00:24:30.373
of the podcast. So in about 15 seconds or less, we don't have a buzzer or anything,
00:24:30.573 --> 00:24:33.193
so no pressure. Where can we learn more from you?
00:24:33.833 --> 00:24:40.273
I have a lot of articles. PrincipalCenter.com slash FAQ has my rapid advice
00:24:40.273 --> 00:24:42.073
on classroom walkthroughs.
00:24:42.153 --> 00:24:45.613
So that's my classroom walkthrough FAQ, PrincipalCenter.com slash FAQ.
00:24:45.773 --> 00:24:49.833
And that's a great place to start. It's got lots of links to other resources. Thank you.
00:24:50.413 --> 00:24:53.413
What's one strategy every coach should have in their back pocket?
00:24:54.093 --> 00:25:00.213
I think I would say patience and recognizing that often people need more than
00:25:00.213 --> 00:25:01.533
we can give in the conversation.
00:25:02.393 --> 00:25:06.293
So our goal in the conversation should be to try to figure out what that is,
00:25:06.633 --> 00:25:08.953
even if it means not really doing anything in the moment.
00:25:09.153 --> 00:25:12.913
If you had 60 seconds with a new teacher, what's the one thing you'd tell them?
00:25:13.053 --> 00:25:16.773
I would tell them, this is a hard job, but it's a rewarding one.
00:25:16.773 --> 00:25:20.153
And it's one that has a long learning curve, but it's worth climbing.
00:25:20.453 --> 00:25:23.653
So please don't quit. Don't give up. It'll be worth it. And you'll get there.
00:25:23.813 --> 00:25:28.373
Thank you so much for your time today. We learned so much and we appreciate you joining us on C3.
00:25:28.653 --> 00:25:31.413
Thank you. It's been an honor and a pleasure. Thanks, Justin.
00:25:32.253 --> 00:25:36.713
Justin shared great insight into how to get into classrooms and make the experience
00:25:36.713 --> 00:25:38.093
of giving feedback positive.
00:25:38.653 --> 00:25:42.413
One of the things he stressed is the importance of consistent classroom observations
00:25:42.413 --> 00:25:44.713
and making feedback a normal low-stakes practice.
00:25:45.093 --> 00:25:48.933
How might you begin to do this today? As coaches, how might you support your
00:25:48.933 --> 00:25:50.633
administrators in this task?
00:25:50.933 --> 00:25:54.973
Thanks for listening to another episode of C3. Be sure to follow us on social media.