speaker-1: Welcome back to Beyond the White Coat, guys. ⁓ one of the things that we talk about in this show is that becoming a doctor involves a whole series of transitions that no one really teaches you to navigate. We spend years learning medicine, but along the way you're moving for medical school, you're moving for residency, you're moving again for fellowship and then for your first attending job. And somewhere in the middle of all that you're supposed to figure out where to live, whether to buy a house. What you can afford, what neighborhood makes sense for you and your family, and whether you're making a good financial decision. And all of those decisions have consequences that last so much longer than the job that you're moving for. My guest today has essentially built her entire career around helping doctors navigate exactly that. Zoe Taylor, welcome on. Zoe's the founder and CEO of Moving Medicine Partners. She's a top one percent realtor. nationally and has built a national t network of physicians, spouse, real estate professionals, helping medical students, residents, fellows, attendings, and other healthcare professionals relocate around the country. But what I've found particularly interesting about Zoe is that she actually came into real estate after helping open and manage medical practices. So she understood the doctor lifestyle before she ever started selling homes to us. Zoe, you built your entire business around a group that most people would consider to be a narrow kind of target segment. Why physicians and when did you realize that there was actually a business hiding inside this problem?
speaker-0: I had a 10-year marriage to a private practice physician. And in that journey of being married to a doctor and learning the ins and outs of the medical practice and becoming becoming a real estate agent in the middle of all of that, ⁓ having bought and sold our own house prior to me being licensed, and then buying and selling a house after I became licensed, I realized how big of the gap of knowledge there was. in most real estate agents with one, the specific products that are available to us as physician families. And then two, the limited knowledge that they have over the lifestyle needs that physician families have in ⁓ specific specialties with proximity to hospital locations, specific specialties and some of the needs that they have within their own homes, the trajectory of a lot of specialties and the timing of your training. There's just a lot of knowledge to be had over the lifespan of what is a physician's professional career and the housing needs and home needs that typically come and coincide alongside that journey. So it was kind of like a firsthand knowledge and it turned into a professional niche just because I was living it. And I wished I had someone that knew what I knew. So I just became that person.
speaker-1: I think it's really interesting you say that because most people outside of medicine underestimate this need, right? A doctor isn't usually moving because they woke up and decided to go to Atlanta or to St. Louis. No. There's often a career event that's forcing that decision. So I'll give you scenarios. Like let's say you've got someone finishing residency in June, starting fellowship July one, very little cash. accumulated because they're a resident and they've got a lot of future income but no cash in hand right now. Or you can have a new attending whose income is about to double or triple and suddenly they're looking at a house based upon the salary they're about to make. What are the things that make those two clients fundamentally different from the traditional home buyer?
speaker-0: I mean, fundamentally going into fellowship, typically you're gonna rent. I mean, fellowships, what, at max three years? Max. And that's, you know, not a time frame that I would typically consider purchasing a home. So a lot of those, you know, resident of fellowship physicians, you know, a lot of them will say, like, well, I know I'm gonna stay here after I'm done with training and this is where I'm gonna take my first attending position. Like, okay, until we see that contract, you can't guarantee that. I've had families come to St. Louis and say that and
speaker-1: So wait, so your advice to a a resident or a fellow that's that's moving for residency, is it always rent, don't buy? When would you say
speaker-0: You said specifically into fellowship. Into residence is just different. Fair. Fair. Do we need to start over?
speaker-1: All right. I'll add my caveat later. No no no
speaker-0: 'Cause we I can do the caveat now. I'm fine with keeping this whole transition in here. Listen, you can cut me off. No.
speaker-1: I'm not going to this is gonna this is gonna be in the original and we'll play the entire thing.
speaker-0: Go ahead. Okay. So yeah, going into residency, it depends on the length. I definitely recommend in certain markets and certain scenarios and certain buyers and consumers. Yeah, you can purchase absolutely. It depends on a multitude of factors going into residency. Market is a huge one. You know, St. Louis is affordable for people to buy. Atlanta is affordable for people to buy in certain neighborhoods, but there's plenty of places like Boston, New York, LA, San Francisco that it San Diego. It doesn't make any sense. Like you're not going to be able to afford much to purchase on a residency salary of sixty to seventy thousand dollars. ⁓ so that one that one's pretty easy just based on like geographic location and ⁓ just the knowledge of what it takes to home own a home. There's there's work involved in it. So sometimes during residency when you're just burned out working a hundred hours a week, some people don't want to take on that challenge. ⁓ going into fellowship, like I mentioned. As the caveat. One to three years, typically you're not gonna buy, you're typically gonna rent. Even if you think you're taking your attending position there, that's risky unless you know that you're capable of owning a rental and managing it from afar. I would not necessarily recommend that, honestly. ⁓ there's plenty of people in the, you know, white coat investor, more like real estate savvy investment mindset that they want to take on building wealth through investments. And so they will purchase a property when they go into fellowship, knowing that they're going to keep it as an asset that will accumulate ⁓ you know, income and value. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. That is the that is a very small percentage of the physician population, though. I feel like most of them are just like hyper focused on I'm gonna be a doctor, that's gonna be my income, that's gonna be my source of wealth, that's the goal right now. Very few are looking at it as I'm trying to do investments at this moment. But In regards to moving into attending lifestyle and income, it's hard. Like you guys have been living in a scarcity mindset for all of your 20s into your 30s. You have all of this delayed gratification of spending, and you have no idea what it feels like to have the income that you're gonna have and then pay the taxes, pay the insurance, start paying on your student loans. And so it's really hard to like truly gauge like, okay, I've got this like multiple six figure income, but how much am I actually bringing home each month? And then like, what does that mortgage payment look like? And what does my lifestyle look like once I finally have time to take vacations and start a family and eat out at decent meals? You know what I mean? Like that lifestyle creep happens quickly sometimes whenever you transition into that attending lifestyle. So I even I'm not in like live like a resident for another few years. I know there's that mantra for some people. But I have found I get two clients, one that overspends in the beginning because they've got the shiny new salary and all this deferred like whatever. And they're like, I need a new car and a new house and it's gonna be huge and it's gonna be great. And then I also have the physicians that are like terrified of spending money and they're like, ooh, we're gonna be really reserved and we're gonna buy half of the house that we can afford. And then they end up coming in back in a few years. selling and buying a house that suits their night lifestyle and actually their budget a little bit better is a little bit bigger, maybe in a neighborhood that they want. I feel like usually those homes have appreciated enough. They make an in they make money off of it. And it it's a safer usually that's like a little bit of a safer ⁓ approach to it. Sure. There's a lot of Yeah, everybody's different.
speaker-1: Which one do you think I was?
speaker-0: Ooh, I don't know. I feel like you're kind of safe. You're fiscally responsible. You're the oldest child. We talked about this already. You were fiscally responsible. You stayed within a budget. You bought a responsible home. You may rinse it for a little bit just to feel it all out. Am I right?
speaker-1: I'm safe. Wrong all the way around. So no, delayed gratification is a son of a bitch, man. Like I was tired of waiting. I've been in a par I was in I was in Boston, one of those markets that you mentioned, where I was in a closet and spending three thousand dollars a month. My wife was a lawyer is a lawyer, and so I was she was a sugar mom at the time. So I mean only because of her income that I couldn't even even afford to pay rent and eat. So by the time I got my first job And I did one of those finesse things back in twenty sixteen when I came out of residency or fellowship where I was getting a little bit of money as a stipend before I started work. ⁓ that ended up being quite a bit of money. So my first health was a million and eighty seven in Atlanta in Buckhead. And I felt like I I felt like the man. And I wouldn't trade that feeling for anything because I'd been in school since I'd moved to the US when I was seventeen years old with this dream of being a doctor and having the home and the white picket fence. And and of course I got a large immigrant family, right? That's like looking at me to be the guy that does the thing. So when the time came, I was trying to figure out with a good realtor how to make this happen because I like that house. And let's reverse engineer the money part. It worked out in my case, but it often doesn't. What is the thing that you think that most of us, with my personality type, what's the mistake that we make when you meet us and how do you help to steer us from putting us putting ourselves in a bad position? When it comes to home buying.
speaker-0: I it's not really my job, like, you know. I try I try to pull back on the reins, you know. I I probably pull back on the reins more than most realtors do. I think a lot of realtors have the whip and they're like pushing them like, yeah, yeah, you can afford that next price point. You know, you can push it there. And I'm I guess though you do remember the conversation we had in the beginning where you weren't willing to go past this number, like we're past that number now. Like where what what are you sacrificing in your life in order
speaker-1: You're talking.
speaker-0: Make this happen because before it was like this is the dead stop because we're gonna pay for private schools. We want this vacation every year. We need to get a new car. We want to make sure that we're budgeting this much in retirement because we haven't started we haven't started a retirement plan yet, you and whatever. We've not like okay, like we're creeping up on the number that's going to keep you from something. So, like, is this house worth sacrificing whatever that thing is within your lifestyle plan that you were planning on and budgeting for? Is is the extra square footage, is that street, is that location, is the qual you know what I mean, is that kitchen worth the sacrifice? And it's fine. For some people, yes. The answer is yes. And that's fine. It's just bringing it to their attention when emotions start pushing the number or start pushing the budget or the house style, you know.
speaker-1: Absolutely. And I think in I was spoiled 'cause I was doing this in twenty sixteen. The money world has changed incredibly in the course of the last five years. So where interest rates are now compared to then, like every additional hundred thousand dollars of house is costing you so much more in mortgage payment. So the impact of that, like the rubber meets the road when you fall in love with the house, but when the banker says, Hey, you're only qualifying for this on the physician mortgage ⁓ and by the way, that mortgage For doctors, it's only zero money down if it's less than X. Yeah. ⁓ and if it's above, you know, you have to have more cash in your pocket and be
speaker-0: is raising every year. They keep raising how much that hundred percent financing is every year.
speaker-1: Well that's a good thing for us.
speaker-0: Well, I mean, I just got someone under contract. I think it's five percent at two point five million. Yeah. And I think I think five percent down at two point five million is a great interest rate. I mean we're we're talking right now, it's like whatever, August of twenty twenty six. Most people are getting like a six and a quarter interest rate. They got five point eight five interest rate. At five percent down at two point five million. I mean, that's a physician loan. You just have to shop for it, you know.
speaker-1: ⁓ wow. Five percent down. So folks are gonna be calling you after this podcast ears. I know, right? For sure. You might hear from me.
speaker-0: I know, I know, I know. I love I love being in the world of like knowing so many physician lenders because when you have those obstacles of those high price points, you know, most of the time every lender's gonna be like, you have to do 20% down. Like that's a huge jump from going at 1.5 million, 100% finance to two million, you have to have 20% down. Like that's that's a crazy, crazy, crazy jump. ⁓ there's a lot of physician lenders that are bridging that gap in big ways.
speaker-1: I wanna talk a little bit more about Zoe D'Entrepreneur. I know you started Moving Medicine STL. You ultimately built moving medicine partners nationally. Walk me through the evolution. Was there a moment when you realized that this isn't a Saint Louis real estate business anymore? This could actually be a national doctor platform. What was that aha moment like and what are the things that you wrestled with going from local agent to national mogul of a platform that serves doctors?
speaker-0: Mogul. I don't know if anybody's like used that word.
speaker-1: ⁓ I knew you'd like it. I saw you smile.
speaker-0: Yeah. No. So, you know, 2018 was helping some resident friends move into town and just like recognized, yeah, like that's a crazy transition. matching in March, being here, you know, mid-June for orientation, finishing up your fourth year of med school and like you're supposed to find housing in that time frame. It was just nuts. So like I
speaker-1: So wait, you were helping friends but you'd already star what phase of the business were you in at that time?
speaker-0: New, I was a brand real estate agent. ⁓ through some physician spouse Facebook groups, I already had like a lot of friends across the US. And when they matched to St. Louis, they knew me, knew I was a real estate agent. And so I started helping friends that were coming here for residency, online friends, not real world friends, but like we were f friends through a Facebook group, whatever. Yeah. And so I started helping them and I was like, I wish we would have had this. I wish when we had bought a house a few years prior when we didn't have a down payment. That my real estate agent had been like, Hey, Zo, you're married to a doctor. Why don't you use a physician loan? Instead, we were trying to like, luckily he was a veteran and but we were like managing like, well, we own a house with a VA loans, you have to sell in order to buy because you can't have two VA loans at a time. So like we were able to manage with a like no down payment, but it was, it would have been like if someone had just been like, There's a physician loan. We could just use a physician loan. It would have been like ten times easier, you know? Like we just had a realtor that didn't didn't know. So I just wanted to know everything that I could about the physician loans. And in doing so, and then helping the residents and understanding their time frame and their budget and ⁓ the proximity needs that they had and the lifestyle that they were gonna have. I just I wanted to specialize in helping residents, period. ⁓ I wasn't even looking at attendings and million dollar homes. Like I just wanted To help these doctors that were in this specific transition and time frame in their life, because it's so it's like almost adulting, like it's adulting junior. Like they're baby doctors. They're like quite adulting yet, you know? And I just wanted to like help them and like guide them and like help them make good decisions because they know a lot about medicine, but they don't know a lot about lifing. The life skills are kind of lacking at that point. No offense to anyone listening. ⁓ And so that just became like my my goal. And you know, the first year I helped three residents. And then 2019, I think I helped five. And then 2020 happened, which if you guys matched in March of 2020, a couple big things were going on in the world at that time. And it was nuts. I think I helped ⁓ sixteen or so residents buy in St. Louis sight on scene while the whole world was shut down that year. ⁓ I was doing video tours. I Was setting up mobile notaries to help these physicians purchase. I was trying to find homes and neighborhoods that I knew that once they got to St. Louis, because they did not know the city, that they would be safe, that the commute was going to be good, that it fit the criteria of needs that they had. And I loved filling that need. And same thing happened in 21 and 22. And it just steamrolled and spiraled into this huge network and trust. of helping physicians. And then obviously I help a ton of attendings now as well. ⁓ it was two thousand and twenty two or so that I was like, man, I really wish that there was something like this in every market. Like I've got You know, we've got Wash U and Slough here from medical schools that when they match, they're leaving town. I'm like, I wish I had people that I could like refer to that understood this medical life. Like it's not just because when I'm having conversations with these physicians, I can talk about credentialing and attestation and all of these nightmare words that I yeah know from helping run medical practices and start medical practices. That I'm like, I wish that more people understood the life and just the conversation that I have with the spouses. So many of My my best friend just went under contract on a house last week and she's married to a cardiologist here in town. And she's lonely, you know, like there's a lot of camaraderie had within a physician's spouse world of just feeling like a lot of the household tasks are on our shoulders. A lot of parenting falls upon us, you know, our spouse's career takes precedence over. almost everything. You know, when they're on call, like you can't expect them to help with the kids. Like when a kid gets sick at school, like we're the ones that have to take off work because they can't cancel a procedure to go pick up the kids from school. There's just like a lot of there's a lot of expectations and burden put on us. And ⁓ and there's not a whole lot of people that you can talk to about it because whenever you want to talk to friends or family, like this is hard. Like there's a it feels a little unfair. My identity is a little shot right now. I don't know, you know, who to turn to. They're like, well, boo hoo, you're married to a doctor. And that's so you don't end up opening up to a lot of people. So the physician spouse community is very integrated and connected in that way. Cause there's some sa safe space there. Anyway, so ⁓ twenty twenty-two I realized I wish this was all over the country. I was like, maybe I should start a brokerage like Keller Williams or Compass or whatever. And it'll be like in every city. And then was like, that is not my personality. I can't, I can't be the next like broker owner or whatever. So I started this organization called Movie Medicine Partners, where I found a ton of physician spouse realtors. And it was amazing to connect with all of them. And we have monthly calls. We're like three and a half years strong now, where we meet online and we teach each other what we know about our our own business and what helps us with our physicians. ⁓ clients and our families and ⁓ but there's a lot of camaraderie in it, you know. We are professionals married to physicians, but our physician spouses oftentimes those roles in the career takes precedence over ours. Still.
speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Sure. Sure. No, thank you for the ⁓ I I think this kind of departure from what we were discussing at first. So this very nostalgic emotional community building bit of what medicine is and how isolating it can be for spouses, ⁓ is is very topical. ⁓ and a part of why we wanted to have this podcast because you touch on several areas that we care about. It's is f of course it's literacy and understanding like markets and good home buying decisions and getting a good deal and knowing who to work with, have a trusted partner. ⁓ because Doc to Doc trusts your brand and what you do. But it's also this part of community, right? Like having someone to be able to call, ⁓ to ask for the friendly advice without having to be on the clock or have them be motivated by a commission or a fee, but just wanting to be helpful. You should have heard the nostalgia in your voice as you kind of hearken back to COVID and just being able to help people and do those kind of virtual notaries and the things that makes made the business move when people just really needed you, you know? ⁓ and I think this is a large part of what this is about, this ecosystem of folks who get the joke, while the others say you're married to a spo to a doctor. So like boo hoo, shame on you. Or or they tell us, like, you know, like, ⁓ you're a doctor, clear you have no money problems. Like credit card debt, like why would you need to borrow money from a company called Dr. Loch Lendick? And if they only knew the truth that we suffer in silence, in this very isolated box and ⁓ and oftentimes we're only relying upon the community that's been vetted that we can trust to say, Hey, I can ask this person for help. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: And it's so hard to trust. I feel like it's so easy to be taken a care ⁓ you know, taken advantage of as a physician, as a physician family and spouse, you know, like I don't like to talk about this, but you know, whenever I'm trying like I'm trying to get a house up for sale and I'm trying to get quotes for like painting and whatever. I mean, doctor tax is a real thing. Just having trusted contractors that will come out and give bids based on the actual scope of work, not based on like the facade of the house, is hard. And like I have a very high expectation for the contractors that I refer to. And it's a one strike, you're out policy. If I ever feel like there's any kind of like taken advantage or if they don't follow through or anything, like they're blacklisted. They're out of my circle completely because I need to be able to have contractors that I can rely on. I can trust, that my physician clients can trust, and they're not going to be taken advantage of. It's so frustrating. And I think realtors are the same way. You know, you ask 10 realtors, like, ⁓ Would you like to work with a physician on a transaction? They're all going to be like, ⁓ my gosh, yes, with dollar signs. But they haven't asked. Like, what's is this a resident physician? You know, I have some that buy $120,000 condos in St. Louis. And I'm not gonna lie, I hate those transactions because I don't love selling condos in St. Louis. They're very difficult transactions to facilitate. But I, you know, I do it, even though it's like not a big paycheck, but it's rewarding because I know that that that That building, that location, that proximity, that is what's going to work best for this physician. And ⁓ there's a lot of realtors that would say no to that. And I'm willing to meet them with whatever path they're on at whatever moment, in whatever neighborhood, with whatever home type, because it's like it's it's their needs. It's it's trying to make their lives easier at a time where it's they're sacrificing a lot to do this profession that is a passion for most. It's not a dollar sign-driven job. It is a It is a a need to serve others and ⁓
speaker-1: How do you ⁓ how do you maintain the quality of the people in your realtor network in different states? Like we we like you know what you would do and the kind of the kind of grit and diligence you bring to your clients in St. Louis. But what how how do you trust that your realtor in Miami is gonna be the same way with your clients?
speaker-0: I know, it's so hard. Well, one, like we do a pretty good vetting process when we're bringing agents on. Like our our our criteria isn't just that you are a physician spouse. We want to meet all physician spouse realtors where they are and we'll help train and guide them. But for them to be an actual partner within our ex organization, they have to be a physician spouse and a qualified agent. So they have to have been doing this for a certain amount of time, have done a certain amount of transactions, have had experience with physician loans, they to go through a vetting process of understanding like the loans, the neighborhood. We actually have a ⁓ a recruitment committee that we do interview processes for every agent that comes into our organization to make sure that we vote and approve of whoever's coming on. Because again, I want to be able to know that when I'm sending a physician client lead to Miami, that they are going to be well served. And then we do follow up with quality and control, you know, ⁓ questionnaires more or less for our clients and the agents to be like, how did that transaction go? Would you recommend them to someone else? ⁓ luckily we really haven't had any issues. But if there were to ever be an issue, again, I'm kind of like a one strike you're out policy. Like we don't get three strikes in my world. Like we're dealing with the biggest financial decisions of these people's lives. And so like there's not room for coddling and error and three strikes. It's it's I take things very seriously when it comes to transactions and how we handle those things.
speaker-1: Fear. Very fear. It's high stakes poker. You I get it. So it's harsh, but it's high stakes poker. What was the hardest thing, ⁓ or what surprised you becoming a CEO instead of just being a really good realtor?
speaker-0: It's like lonely. Is that weird? It's a little lonely. ⁓ I feel like whenever you reach a capacity or caliber, and I don't I don't want to say this egg egotistically, but I've lost some friendships ⁓ along the way. ⁓ just in having boundaries and having professional standards for myself and how things are applied. there's ⁓ it's there's some jealousy, there's some cattiness.
speaker-1: Wait a second. So you said like losing friends by having boundaries. Give me an example. Like what do you mean exactly?
speaker-0: Gosh, I like don't wanna
speaker-1: You don't have to say her name.
speaker-0: I'm not gonna say your name. So when I started the organization, yeah, there was a lot of camaraderie and I'd had this idea brewing for like quite some time. I was going through like a really hard time personally. And so there were some people that I was relying on to like bounce ideas off of and like whatever. So someone was kind of like there with me along the ride and was like really supportive. And I was like, okay, I'm doing this. So I built a website. I Paid the legal fees for all the contracts to be formed, paid for the insurance, like whatever. And and everything got launched. And ⁓ I was approached and someone was a little upset that they weren't incorporated in an ownership capacity to the organization. Sure. And so there was a really hard conversation that was like, well, like the liability is me, the idea was me, the facilitation was me. So like what were you expecting type of thing? And I don't know. It was really it was really hard because it was a really good friend and it just it it didn't come about to a way that ⁓ satisfied both people and so we've parted ways and I don't think I've talked to her since. So that was really hard. I'm sorry. And there's been a couple of other things too, just even like here locally in St. Louis friends that I d it's just weird. It's just weird. Like I've got
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: A lot of people that they think that I'm opportunistic and I I like, I don't know. I saw a niche and I failed it. I feel like I really do try to focus on physician families and serving physicians and doing the best that I can to always be improving myself and the agents within the organization and the standards of which that is practiced. And there's a lot of business involved in that. So there is a lot of like, you know, like business standard approach. I I hope that most people would see that it's not opportunistic. There was an opportunity, like don't get me wrong. Ob obviously there was a niche that needed filled. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For a business to succeed, there has to be an opportunity and a niche to be filled and to the capacity it it gets filled. I just don't like it being portrayed in a negative way, but you can't control how other people feel, whether that's jealousy or whether that's
speaker-1: Has to be optimistic to some degree.
speaker-0: missed opportunity on their part or whatever it is. It's just been a little I block it out, it's fine. If I like sit and think about it for too long, it kind of hurts because there was a couple friends and people that I'm like, well, we should like linking arms and like doing stuff to build each other up and grow. Sure. And people choose to not do that. And that's fine. ⁓ so I don't know. I don't know. Business CEO leadership is just kind of like a weird emotional thing to deal with disassociating from negativity.
speaker-1: Fair. And I think the good thing about it is that the friends that remain after tend to be the ones who get it, right? Who you who can really celebrate with you and and not have any envy, who really thinking of your problem is their problem and want to find a way to get into the trenches and solve the problem with you as well. So
speaker-0: You outgrow certain relationships, but then you grow into others and it's a beautiful transition. Yeah. Absolutely.
speaker-1: Have I been saying your name wrong the entire time? Is it Zop?
speaker-0: It is Zoe and that's okay.
speaker-1: ⁓ I've got one of those hard names too. I wish you would have said something at the very beginning.
speaker-0: You know, when you introduced me, I was like, ⁓ I'm gonna like correct him real quick and then like I just didn't and we're just gonna go It's yeah, it's Zoe, it's Zoe. But listen, like my middle initial is E. So Zoe E. So in my mind, I just have you calling me that.
speaker-1: ⁓ you did not. Fair. That works. So we're at the end. ⁓ I've got a couple of rapid fire ones. I want you to give me one sentence. No realter answers here. It depends. None of that nonsense. You're gonna go top of mind first things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All cool. Buy or rent during residency.
speaker-0: Which town are you in? There's too many variables. I mean like ⁓
speaker-1: Ha ha.
speaker-0: In Saint Low was by
speaker-1: Twenty percent down or a physician mortgage.
speaker-0: physician mortgage, invest the rest if the interest rates are higher that you can accumulate on your investment.
speaker-1: New construction or existing home.
speaker-0: Location
speaker-1: Most overrated thing that people pay for.
speaker-0: Paint jobs, updates, Pinterest stupid perfect houses. Like pools are stupid too. Like there's so much maintenance. They're awful. Just pay for a membership at a gym that has a pool.
speaker-1: But you're gonna say pool. Everyone What's the most underrated thing that people don't pay enough attention to?
speaker-0: Location. Like people look at quality over location and it drives me crazy.
speaker-1: Long commute for the dream house, yes or no?
speaker-0: No. You're gonna get over that real quick.
speaker-1: Buy the nicest you can afford or leave room to grow.
speaker-0: Leave room to grow.
speaker-1: Biggest physician home buying mistake.
speaker-0: The Pinterest perfect homes don't compete for emotions. Like a great paint job in a house and the house across the street is the exact same layout and it doesn't look as nice. Like you should not be in a bidding war for some small cosmetic stuff. And I just feel like people get super emotional because of interest like Pinterest and Instagram and stuff that these picture perfect homes ⁓ create too much emotional distress in people and they give up their firstborn child and left kidney for a house that doesn't deserve it.
speaker-1: You feel really strongly about that one. I too. That was way over my rapid fire t time allocation. But I'll let it all run. Last one. The smartest physician homebuyers always
speaker-0: Hmm. They Make a decision slowly. Like just leave the emotions out of it. My opinion.
speaker-1: So this was fantastic. Thank you. I appreciate that. You were a phenomenal host. You've got a great energy and excellent vibe. And we thank you very much for the time.
speaker-0: Well, thank you. I appreciate everything that you guys do over at Doc to Doc and ⁓ this podcast has been amazing. I appreciate you so much.
speaker-1: My pleasure. We'll talk. Bye.
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-0: I had a 10-year marriage to a private practice physician. And in that journey of being married to a doctor and learning the ins and outs of the medical practice and becoming becoming a real estate agent in the middle of all of that, ⁓ having bought and sold our own house prior to me being licensed, and then buying and selling a house after I became licensed, I realized how big of the gap of knowledge there was. in most real estate agents with one, the specific products that are available to us as physician families. And then two, the limited knowledge that they have over the lifestyle needs that physician families have in ⁓ specific specialties with proximity to hospital locations, specific specialties and some of the needs that they have within their own homes, the trajectory of a lot of specialties and the timing of your training. There's just a lot of knowledge to be had over the lifespan of what is a physician's professional career and the housing needs and home needs that typically come and coincide alongside that journey. So it was kind of like a firsthand knowledge and it turned into a professional niche just because I was living it. And I wished I had someone that knew what I knew. So I just became that person.
speaker-1: I think it's really interesting you say that because most people outside of medicine underestimate this need, right? A doctor isn't usually moving because they woke up and decided to go to Atlanta or to St. Louis. No. There's often a career event that's forcing that decision. So I'll give you scenarios. Like let's say you've got someone finishing residency in June, starting fellowship July one, very little cash. accumulated because they're a resident and they've got a lot of future income but no cash in hand right now. Or you can have a new attending whose income is about to double or triple and suddenly they're looking at a house based upon the salary they're about to make. What are the things that make those two clients fundamentally different from the traditional home buyer?
speaker-0: I mean, fundamentally going into fellowship, typically you're gonna rent. I mean, fellowships, what, at max three years? Max. And that's, you know, not a time frame that I would typically consider purchasing a home. So a lot of those, you know, resident of fellowship physicians, you know, a lot of them will say, like, well, I know I'm gonna stay here after I'm done with training and this is where I'm gonna take my first attending position. Like, okay, until we see that contract, you can't guarantee that. I've had families come to St. Louis and say that and
speaker-1: So wait, so your advice to a a resident or a fellow that's that's moving for residency, is it always rent, don't buy? When would you say
speaker-0: You said specifically into fellowship. Into residence is just different. Fair. Fair. Do we need to start over?
speaker-1: All right. I'll add my caveat later. No no no
speaker-0: 'Cause we I can do the caveat now. I'm fine with keeping this whole transition in here. Listen, you can cut me off. No.
speaker-1: I'm not going to this is gonna this is gonna be in the original and we'll play the entire thing.
speaker-0: Go ahead. Okay. So yeah, going into residency, it depends on the length. I definitely recommend in certain markets and certain scenarios and certain buyers and consumers. Yeah, you can purchase absolutely. It depends on a multitude of factors going into residency. Market is a huge one. You know, St. Louis is affordable for people to buy. Atlanta is affordable for people to buy in certain neighborhoods, but there's plenty of places like Boston, New York, LA, San Francisco that it San Diego. It doesn't make any sense. Like you're not going to be able to afford much to purchase on a residency salary of sixty to seventy thousand dollars. ⁓ so that one that one's pretty easy just based on like geographic location and ⁓ just the knowledge of what it takes to home own a home. There's there's work involved in it. So sometimes during residency when you're just burned out working a hundred hours a week, some people don't want to take on that challenge. ⁓ going into fellowship, like I mentioned. As the caveat. One to three years, typically you're not gonna buy, you're typically gonna rent. Even if you think you're taking your attending position there, that's risky unless you know that you're capable of owning a rental and managing it from afar. I would not necessarily recommend that, honestly. ⁓ there's plenty of people in the, you know, white coat investor, more like real estate savvy investment mindset that they want to take on building wealth through investments. And so they will purchase a property when they go into fellowship, knowing that they're going to keep it as an asset that will accumulate ⁓ you know, income and value. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. That is the that is a very small percentage of the physician population, though. I feel like most of them are just like hyper focused on I'm gonna be a doctor, that's gonna be my income, that's gonna be my source of wealth, that's the goal right now. Very few are looking at it as I'm trying to do investments at this moment. But In regards to moving into attending lifestyle and income, it's hard. Like you guys have been living in a scarcity mindset for all of your 20s into your 30s. You have all of this delayed gratification of spending, and you have no idea what it feels like to have the income that you're gonna have and then pay the taxes, pay the insurance, start paying on your student loans. And so it's really hard to like truly gauge like, okay, I've got this like multiple six figure income, but how much am I actually bringing home each month? And then like, what does that mortgage payment look like? And what does my lifestyle look like once I finally have time to take vacations and start a family and eat out at decent meals? You know what I mean? Like that lifestyle creep happens quickly sometimes whenever you transition into that attending lifestyle. So I even I'm not in like live like a resident for another few years. I know there's that mantra for some people. But I have found I get two clients, one that overspends in the beginning because they've got the shiny new salary and all this deferred like whatever. And they're like, I need a new car and a new house and it's gonna be huge and it's gonna be great. And then I also have the physicians that are like terrified of spending money and they're like, ooh, we're gonna be really reserved and we're gonna buy half of the house that we can afford. And then they end up coming in back in a few years. selling and buying a house that suits their night lifestyle and actually their budget a little bit better is a little bit bigger, maybe in a neighborhood that they want. I feel like usually those homes have appreciated enough. They make an in they make money off of it. And it it's a safer usually that's like a little bit of a safer ⁓ approach to it. Sure. There's a lot of Yeah, everybody's different.
speaker-1: Which one do you think I was?
speaker-0: Ooh, I don't know. I feel like you're kind of safe. You're fiscally responsible. You're the oldest child. We talked about this already. You were fiscally responsible. You stayed within a budget. You bought a responsible home. You may rinse it for a little bit just to feel it all out. Am I right?
speaker-1: I'm safe. Wrong all the way around. So no, delayed gratification is a son of a bitch, man. Like I was tired of waiting. I've been in a par I was in I was in Boston, one of those markets that you mentioned, where I was in a closet and spending three thousand dollars a month. My wife was a lawyer is a lawyer, and so I was she was a sugar mom at the time. So I mean only because of her income that I couldn't even even afford to pay rent and eat. So by the time I got my first job And I did one of those finesse things back in twenty sixteen when I came out of residency or fellowship where I was getting a little bit of money as a stipend before I started work. ⁓ that ended up being quite a bit of money. So my first health was a million and eighty seven in Atlanta in Buckhead. And I felt like I I felt like the man. And I wouldn't trade that feeling for anything because I'd been in school since I'd moved to the US when I was seventeen years old with this dream of being a doctor and having the home and the white picket fence. And and of course I got a large immigrant family, right? That's like looking at me to be the guy that does the thing. So when the time came, I was trying to figure out with a good realtor how to make this happen because I like that house. And let's reverse engineer the money part. It worked out in my case, but it often doesn't. What is the thing that you think that most of us, with my personality type, what's the mistake that we make when you meet us and how do you help to steer us from putting us putting ourselves in a bad position? When it comes to home buying.
speaker-0: I it's not really my job, like, you know. I try I try to pull back on the reins, you know. I I probably pull back on the reins more than most realtors do. I think a lot of realtors have the whip and they're like pushing them like, yeah, yeah, you can afford that next price point. You know, you can push it there. And I'm I guess though you do remember the conversation we had in the beginning where you weren't willing to go past this number, like we're past that number now. Like where what what are you sacrificing in your life in order
speaker-1: You're talking.
speaker-0: Make this happen because before it was like this is the dead stop because we're gonna pay for private schools. We want this vacation every year. We need to get a new car. We want to make sure that we're budgeting this much in retirement because we haven't started we haven't started a retirement plan yet, you and whatever. We've not like okay, like we're creeping up on the number that's going to keep you from something. So, like, is this house worth sacrificing whatever that thing is within your lifestyle plan that you were planning on and budgeting for? Is is the extra square footage, is that street, is that location, is the qual you know what I mean, is that kitchen worth the sacrifice? And it's fine. For some people, yes. The answer is yes. And that's fine. It's just bringing it to their attention when emotions start pushing the number or start pushing the budget or the house style, you know.
speaker-1: Absolutely. And I think in I was spoiled 'cause I was doing this in twenty sixteen. The money world has changed incredibly in the course of the last five years. So where interest rates are now compared to then, like every additional hundred thousand dollars of house is costing you so much more in mortgage payment. So the impact of that, like the rubber meets the road when you fall in love with the house, but when the banker says, Hey, you're only qualifying for this on the physician mortgage ⁓ and by the way, that mortgage For doctors, it's only zero money down if it's less than X. Yeah. ⁓ and if it's above, you know, you have to have more cash in your pocket and be
speaker-0: is raising every year. They keep raising how much that hundred percent financing is every year.
speaker-1: Well that's a good thing for us.
speaker-0: Well, I mean, I just got someone under contract. I think it's five percent at two point five million. Yeah. And I think I think five percent down at two point five million is a great interest rate. I mean we're we're talking right now, it's like whatever, August of twenty twenty six. Most people are getting like a six and a quarter interest rate. They got five point eight five interest rate. At five percent down at two point five million. I mean, that's a physician loan. You just have to shop for it, you know.
speaker-1: ⁓ wow. Five percent down. So folks are gonna be calling you after this podcast ears. I know, right? For sure. You might hear from me.
speaker-0: I know, I know, I know. I love I love being in the world of like knowing so many physician lenders because when you have those obstacles of those high price points, you know, most of the time every lender's gonna be like, you have to do 20% down. Like that's a huge jump from going at 1.5 million, 100% finance to two million, you have to have 20% down. Like that's that's a crazy, crazy, crazy jump. ⁓ there's a lot of physician lenders that are bridging that gap in big ways.
speaker-1: I wanna talk a little bit more about Zoe D'Entrepreneur. I know you started Moving Medicine STL. You ultimately built moving medicine partners nationally. Walk me through the evolution. Was there a moment when you realized that this isn't a Saint Louis real estate business anymore? This could actually be a national doctor platform. What was that aha moment like and what are the things that you wrestled with going from local agent to national mogul of a platform that serves doctors?
speaker-0: Mogul. I don't know if anybody's like used that word.
speaker-1: ⁓ I knew you'd like it. I saw you smile.
speaker-0: Yeah. No. So, you know, 2018 was helping some resident friends move into town and just like recognized, yeah, like that's a crazy transition. matching in March, being here, you know, mid-June for orientation, finishing up your fourth year of med school and like you're supposed to find housing in that time frame. It was just nuts. So like I
speaker-1: So wait, you were helping friends but you'd already star what phase of the business were you in at that time?
speaker-0: New, I was a brand real estate agent. ⁓ through some physician spouse Facebook groups, I already had like a lot of friends across the US. And when they matched to St. Louis, they knew me, knew I was a real estate agent. And so I started helping friends that were coming here for residency, online friends, not real world friends, but like we were f friends through a Facebook group, whatever. Yeah. And so I started helping them and I was like, I wish we would have had this. I wish when we had bought a house a few years prior when we didn't have a down payment. That my real estate agent had been like, Hey, Zo, you're married to a doctor. Why don't you use a physician loan? Instead, we were trying to like, luckily he was a veteran and but we were like managing like, well, we own a house with a VA loans, you have to sell in order to buy because you can't have two VA loans at a time. So like we were able to manage with a like no down payment, but it was, it would have been like if someone had just been like, There's a physician loan. We could just use a physician loan. It would have been like ten times easier, you know? Like we just had a realtor that didn't didn't know. So I just wanted to know everything that I could about the physician loans. And in doing so, and then helping the residents and understanding their time frame and their budget and ⁓ the proximity needs that they had and the lifestyle that they were gonna have. I just I wanted to specialize in helping residents, period. ⁓ I wasn't even looking at attendings and million dollar homes. Like I just wanted To help these doctors that were in this specific transition and time frame in their life, because it's so it's like almost adulting, like it's adulting junior. Like they're baby doctors. They're like quite adulting yet, you know? And I just wanted to like help them and like guide them and like help them make good decisions because they know a lot about medicine, but they don't know a lot about lifing. The life skills are kind of lacking at that point. No offense to anyone listening. ⁓ And so that just became like my my goal. And you know, the first year I helped three residents. And then 2019, I think I helped five. And then 2020 happened, which if you guys matched in March of 2020, a couple big things were going on in the world at that time. And it was nuts. I think I helped ⁓ sixteen or so residents buy in St. Louis sight on scene while the whole world was shut down that year. ⁓ I was doing video tours. I Was setting up mobile notaries to help these physicians purchase. I was trying to find homes and neighborhoods that I knew that once they got to St. Louis, because they did not know the city, that they would be safe, that the commute was going to be good, that it fit the criteria of needs that they had. And I loved filling that need. And same thing happened in 21 and 22. And it just steamrolled and spiraled into this huge network and trust. of helping physicians. And then obviously I help a ton of attendings now as well. ⁓ it was two thousand and twenty two or so that I was like, man, I really wish that there was something like this in every market. Like I've got You know, we've got Wash U and Slough here from medical schools that when they match, they're leaving town. I'm like, I wish I had people that I could like refer to that understood this medical life. Like it's not just because when I'm having conversations with these physicians, I can talk about credentialing and attestation and all of these nightmare words that I yeah know from helping run medical practices and start medical practices. That I'm like, I wish that more people understood the life and just the conversation that I have with the spouses. So many of My my best friend just went under contract on a house last week and she's married to a cardiologist here in town. And she's lonely, you know, like there's a lot of camaraderie had within a physician's spouse world of just feeling like a lot of the household tasks are on our shoulders. A lot of parenting falls upon us, you know, our spouse's career takes precedence over. almost everything. You know, when they're on call, like you can't expect them to help with the kids. Like when a kid gets sick at school, like we're the ones that have to take off work because they can't cancel a procedure to go pick up the kids from school. There's just like a lot of there's a lot of expectations and burden put on us. And ⁓ and there's not a whole lot of people that you can talk to about it because whenever you want to talk to friends or family, like this is hard. Like there's a it feels a little unfair. My identity is a little shot right now. I don't know, you know, who to turn to. They're like, well, boo hoo, you're married to a doctor. And that's so you don't end up opening up to a lot of people. So the physician spouse community is very integrated and connected in that way. Cause there's some sa safe space there. Anyway, so ⁓ twenty twenty-two I realized I wish this was all over the country. I was like, maybe I should start a brokerage like Keller Williams or Compass or whatever. And it'll be like in every city. And then was like, that is not my personality. I can't, I can't be the next like broker owner or whatever. So I started this organization called Movie Medicine Partners, where I found a ton of physician spouse realtors. And it was amazing to connect with all of them. And we have monthly calls. We're like three and a half years strong now, where we meet online and we teach each other what we know about our our own business and what helps us with our physicians. ⁓ clients and our families and ⁓ but there's a lot of camaraderie in it, you know. We are professionals married to physicians, but our physician spouses oftentimes those roles in the career takes precedence over ours. Still.
speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Sure. Sure. No, thank you for the ⁓ I I think this kind of departure from what we were discussing at first. So this very nostalgic emotional community building bit of what medicine is and how isolating it can be for spouses, ⁓ is is very topical. ⁓ and a part of why we wanted to have this podcast because you touch on several areas that we care about. It's is f of course it's literacy and understanding like markets and good home buying decisions and getting a good deal and knowing who to work with, have a trusted partner. ⁓ because Doc to Doc trusts your brand and what you do. But it's also this part of community, right? Like having someone to be able to call, ⁓ to ask for the friendly advice without having to be on the clock or have them be motivated by a commission or a fee, but just wanting to be helpful. You should have heard the nostalgia in your voice as you kind of hearken back to COVID and just being able to help people and do those kind of virtual notaries and the things that makes made the business move when people just really needed you, you know? ⁓ and I think this is a large part of what this is about, this ecosystem of folks who get the joke, while the others say you're married to a spo to a doctor. So like boo hoo, shame on you. Or or they tell us, like, you know, like, ⁓ you're a doctor, clear you have no money problems. Like credit card debt, like why would you need to borrow money from a company called Dr. Loch Lendick? And if they only knew the truth that we suffer in silence, in this very isolated box and ⁓ and oftentimes we're only relying upon the community that's been vetted that we can trust to say, Hey, I can ask this person for help. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: And it's so hard to trust. I feel like it's so easy to be taken a care ⁓ you know, taken advantage of as a physician, as a physician family and spouse, you know, like I don't like to talk about this, but you know, whenever I'm trying like I'm trying to get a house up for sale and I'm trying to get quotes for like painting and whatever. I mean, doctor tax is a real thing. Just having trusted contractors that will come out and give bids based on the actual scope of work, not based on like the facade of the house, is hard. And like I have a very high expectation for the contractors that I refer to. And it's a one strike, you're out policy. If I ever feel like there's any kind of like taken advantage or if they don't follow through or anything, like they're blacklisted. They're out of my circle completely because I need to be able to have contractors that I can rely on. I can trust, that my physician clients can trust, and they're not going to be taken advantage of. It's so frustrating. And I think realtors are the same way. You know, you ask 10 realtors, like, ⁓ Would you like to work with a physician on a transaction? They're all going to be like, ⁓ my gosh, yes, with dollar signs. But they haven't asked. Like, what's is this a resident physician? You know, I have some that buy $120,000 condos in St. Louis. And I'm not gonna lie, I hate those transactions because I don't love selling condos in St. Louis. They're very difficult transactions to facilitate. But I, you know, I do it, even though it's like not a big paycheck, but it's rewarding because I know that that that That building, that location, that proximity, that is what's going to work best for this physician. And ⁓ there's a lot of realtors that would say no to that. And I'm willing to meet them with whatever path they're on at whatever moment, in whatever neighborhood, with whatever home type, because it's like it's it's their needs. It's it's trying to make their lives easier at a time where it's they're sacrificing a lot to do this profession that is a passion for most. It's not a dollar sign-driven job. It is a It is a a need to serve others and ⁓
speaker-1: How do you ⁓ how do you maintain the quality of the people in your realtor network in different states? Like we we like you know what you would do and the kind of the kind of grit and diligence you bring to your clients in St. Louis. But what how how do you trust that your realtor in Miami is gonna be the same way with your clients?
speaker-0: I know, it's so hard. Well, one, like we do a pretty good vetting process when we're bringing agents on. Like our our our criteria isn't just that you are a physician spouse. We want to meet all physician spouse realtors where they are and we'll help train and guide them. But for them to be an actual partner within our ex organization, they have to be a physician spouse and a qualified agent. So they have to have been doing this for a certain amount of time, have done a certain amount of transactions, have had experience with physician loans, they to go through a vetting process of understanding like the loans, the neighborhood. We actually have a ⁓ a recruitment committee that we do interview processes for every agent that comes into our organization to make sure that we vote and approve of whoever's coming on. Because again, I want to be able to know that when I'm sending a physician client lead to Miami, that they are going to be well served. And then we do follow up with quality and control, you know, ⁓ questionnaires more or less for our clients and the agents to be like, how did that transaction go? Would you recommend them to someone else? ⁓ luckily we really haven't had any issues. But if there were to ever be an issue, again, I'm kind of like a one strike you're out policy. Like we don't get three strikes in my world. Like we're dealing with the biggest financial decisions of these people's lives. And so like there's not room for coddling and error and three strikes. It's it's I take things very seriously when it comes to transactions and how we handle those things.
speaker-1: Fear. Very fear. It's high stakes poker. You I get it. So it's harsh, but it's high stakes poker. What was the hardest thing, ⁓ or what surprised you becoming a CEO instead of just being a really good realtor?
speaker-0: It's like lonely. Is that weird? It's a little lonely. ⁓ I feel like whenever you reach a capacity or caliber, and I don't I don't want to say this egg egotistically, but I've lost some friendships ⁓ along the way. ⁓ just in having boundaries and having professional standards for myself and how things are applied. there's ⁓ it's there's some jealousy, there's some cattiness.
speaker-1: Wait a second. So you said like losing friends by having boundaries. Give me an example. Like what do you mean exactly?
speaker-0: Gosh, I like don't wanna
speaker-1: You don't have to say her name.
speaker-0: I'm not gonna say your name. So when I started the organization, yeah, there was a lot of camaraderie and I'd had this idea brewing for like quite some time. I was going through like a really hard time personally. And so there were some people that I was relying on to like bounce ideas off of and like whatever. So someone was kind of like there with me along the ride and was like really supportive. And I was like, okay, I'm doing this. So I built a website. I Paid the legal fees for all the contracts to be formed, paid for the insurance, like whatever. And and everything got launched. And ⁓ I was approached and someone was a little upset that they weren't incorporated in an ownership capacity to the organization. Sure. And so there was a really hard conversation that was like, well, like the liability is me, the idea was me, the facilitation was me. So like what were you expecting type of thing? And I don't know. It was really it was really hard because it was a really good friend and it just it it didn't come about to a way that ⁓ satisfied both people and so we've parted ways and I don't think I've talked to her since. So that was really hard. I'm sorry. And there's been a couple of other things too, just even like here locally in St. Louis friends that I d it's just weird. It's just weird. Like I've got
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: A lot of people that they think that I'm opportunistic and I I like, I don't know. I saw a niche and I failed it. I feel like I really do try to focus on physician families and serving physicians and doing the best that I can to always be improving myself and the agents within the organization and the standards of which that is practiced. And there's a lot of business involved in that. So there is a lot of like, you know, like business standard approach. I I hope that most people would see that it's not opportunistic. There was an opportunity, like don't get me wrong. Ob obviously there was a niche that needed filled. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For a business to succeed, there has to be an opportunity and a niche to be filled and to the capacity it it gets filled. I just don't like it being portrayed in a negative way, but you can't control how other people feel, whether that's jealousy or whether that's
speaker-1: Has to be optimistic to some degree.
speaker-0: missed opportunity on their part or whatever it is. It's just been a little I block it out, it's fine. If I like sit and think about it for too long, it kind of hurts because there was a couple friends and people that I'm like, well, we should like linking arms and like doing stuff to build each other up and grow. Sure. And people choose to not do that. And that's fine. ⁓ so I don't know. I don't know. Business CEO leadership is just kind of like a weird emotional thing to deal with disassociating from negativity.
speaker-1: Fair. And I think the good thing about it is that the friends that remain after tend to be the ones who get it, right? Who you who can really celebrate with you and and not have any envy, who really thinking of your problem is their problem and want to find a way to get into the trenches and solve the problem with you as well. So
speaker-0: You outgrow certain relationships, but then you grow into others and it's a beautiful transition. Yeah. Absolutely.
speaker-1: Have I been saying your name wrong the entire time? Is it Zop?
speaker-0: It is Zoe and that's okay.
speaker-1: ⁓ I've got one of those hard names too. I wish you would have said something at the very beginning.
speaker-0: You know, when you introduced me, I was like, ⁓ I'm gonna like correct him real quick and then like I just didn't and we're just gonna go It's yeah, it's Zoe, it's Zoe. But listen, like my middle initial is E. So Zoe E. So in my mind, I just have you calling me that.
speaker-1: ⁓ you did not. Fair. That works. So we're at the end. ⁓ I've got a couple of rapid fire ones. I want you to give me one sentence. No realter answers here. It depends. None of that nonsense. You're gonna go top of mind first things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All cool. Buy or rent during residency.
speaker-0: Which town are you in? There's too many variables. I mean like ⁓
speaker-1: Ha ha.
speaker-0: In Saint Low was by
speaker-1: Twenty percent down or a physician mortgage.
speaker-0: physician mortgage, invest the rest if the interest rates are higher that you can accumulate on your investment.
speaker-1: New construction or existing home.
speaker-0: Location
speaker-1: Most overrated thing that people pay for.
speaker-0: Paint jobs, updates, Pinterest stupid perfect houses. Like pools are stupid too. Like there's so much maintenance. They're awful. Just pay for a membership at a gym that has a pool.
speaker-1: But you're gonna say pool. Everyone What's the most underrated thing that people don't pay enough attention to?
speaker-0: Location. Like people look at quality over location and it drives me crazy.
speaker-1: Long commute for the dream house, yes or no?
speaker-0: No. You're gonna get over that real quick.
speaker-1: Buy the nicest you can afford or leave room to grow.
speaker-0: Leave room to grow.
speaker-1: Biggest physician home buying mistake.
speaker-0: The Pinterest perfect homes don't compete for emotions. Like a great paint job in a house and the house across the street is the exact same layout and it doesn't look as nice. Like you should not be in a bidding war for some small cosmetic stuff. And I just feel like people get super emotional because of interest like Pinterest and Instagram and stuff that these picture perfect homes ⁓ create too much emotional distress in people and they give up their firstborn child and left kidney for a house that doesn't deserve it.
speaker-1: You feel really strongly about that one. I too. That was way over my rapid fire t time allocation. But I'll let it all run. Last one. The smartest physician homebuyers always
speaker-0: Hmm. They Make a decision slowly. Like just leave the emotions out of it. My opinion.
speaker-1: So this was fantastic. Thank you. I appreciate that. You were a phenomenal host. You've got a great energy and excellent vibe. And we thank you very much for the time.
speaker-0: Well, thank you. I appreciate everything that you guys do over at Doc to Doc and ⁓ this podcast has been amazing. I appreciate you so much.
speaker-1: My pleasure. We'll talk. Bye.
speaker-0: Okay.
