41 Reports Later, WooCommerce Talks Accessibility | Thomson & Scott Noughty Non Alcoholic Sparkling Chardonnay

WEBVTT
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
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Chris Hinds: Welcome to Accessibility
Craft, where we explore the complex
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challenges and emerging trends that are
shaping digital accessibility, while
00:00:15.044 --> 00:00:16.994
sipping on unique craft beverages.
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This show is proudly produced by
Equalize Digital, The most trusted
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name in WordPress accessibility.
00:00:23.040 --> 00:00:27.150
Join us every week as we break down
accessibility news and share the expert
00:00:27.150 --> 00:00:30.755
strategies we've used to help make
millions of websites more accessible.
00:00:31.459 --> 00:00:34.189
Grab a drink, the show starts now!
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Amber: Hey, everybody.
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It's Amber, and I'm here today with Steve.
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Steve Jones: Hello everyone.
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Amber: And we have a special
guest joining us today.
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Hey, James.
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James Kemp: Hey, how are you?
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Amber: Doing pretty well.
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We are so excited to have you
here today to talk all about
00:00:52.557 --> 00:00:54.999
WooCommerce extension accessibility.
00:00:55.348 --> 00:00:59.565
But can you give us a little
background on who you are and
00:00:59.565 --> 00:01:01.393
what your role is at WooCommerce?
00:01:02.393 --> 00:01:02.904
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:01:03.001 --> 00:01:04.694
How deep do you wanna
go on the background?
00:01:05.694 --> 00:01:06.036
Steve Jones: Deep.
00:01:06.114 --> 00:01:07.402
Amber: As deep as you wanna go.
00:01:07.543 --> 00:01:08.523
James Kemp: As deep as possible.
00:01:08.828 --> 00:01:12.009
Amber: I mean, you don't have
to start with childhood maybe.
00:01:12.447 --> 00:01:13.064
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:01:13.946 --> 00:01:14.617
That makes sense.
00:01:14.696 --> 00:01:16.216
Amber: How did you hear
about the internet?
00:01:16.359 --> 00:01:18.106
James Kemp: That was back in the '80s.
00:01:18.973 --> 00:01:19.185
No.
00:01:19.201 --> 00:01:19.807
So I was.
00:01:19.885 --> 00:01:20.142
Right.
00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:22.029
Okay, so currently I am James Kemp.
00:01:22.118 --> 00:01:23.279
I am from the UK.
00:01:23.370 --> 00:01:25.856
I am the core Product
Manager for WooCommerce.
00:01:26.649 --> 00:01:32.694
Prior to that I ran off and on
essentially, I ran it as a side
00:01:32.695 --> 00:01:36.978
project initially and then it became
a full-time thing, but a plugin
00:01:37.005 --> 00:01:39.028
company for WooCommerce called Iconic.
00:01:39.810 --> 00:01:45.557
Our first plugin was 2011, so
it was I think a good 13 years
00:01:45.565 --> 00:01:48.216
before it was eventually acquired.
00:01:48.797 --> 00:01:52.055
Then I kind of carried on working
there for a few years and really
00:01:52.055 --> 00:01:57.555
transitioned from being an engineer, a
designer into more of a product role.
00:01:58.129 --> 00:02:02.324
And yeah, after the acquisition of that,
it became pretty much 100% product.
00:02:03.096 --> 00:02:08.097
And then I switched gears a bit and I
wanted to do something where I could
00:02:08.097 --> 00:02:11.901
have a bit more impact on, you know,
the people, the number of people
00:02:11.901 --> 00:02:13.926
using the products that I work on.
00:02:14.379 --> 00:02:19.665
So I went right to the source and
ended up at WooCommerce, and here I am.
00:02:20.665 --> 00:02:21.252
Amber: Wonderful.
00:02:21.258 --> 00:02:25.694
So we are so excited to have you
here with us for episode number
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188 of Accessibility Craft.
00:02:28.580 --> 00:02:32.840
For folks who want show notes and a
full transcript, you can find that if
00:02:32.842 --> 00:02:36.212
you go to accessibilitycraft.com/188.
00:02:36.237 --> 00:02:42.364
We're gonna have lots of fun talking about
WooCommerce and accessibility with James.
00:02:42.568 --> 00:02:47.985
But of course, we always start with a
beverage, and we are celebrating today.
00:02:48.260 --> 00:02:49.725
So what do we have?
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Steve, do you wanna introduce it?
00:02:51.762 --> 00:02:52.330
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:02:52.345 --> 00:02:55.765
Since our wine expert Chris is
not here, I am happy to fill
00:02:55.765 --> 00:02:58.248
in as the non-wine expert.
00:02:59.248 --> 00:03:04.896
So we are drinking a non-alcoholic wine
by Thompson & Scott called Noughty.
00:03:05.393 --> 00:03:10.372
It is a dealcoholized
sparkling Chardonnay.
00:03:10.387 --> 00:03:14.269
So the sparkling is what makes it
more like we're celebrating, right?
00:03:15.234 --> 00:03:20.441
So, Noughty is a non-alcoholic
sparkling Chardonnay, has been expertly
00:03:20.511 --> 00:03:25.790
dealcoholized to retain the rich flavor
of this beautiful crafted bottle.
00:03:26.113 --> 00:03:30.291
Traditional wine-making in stainless
steel vats, followed by further
00:03:30.301 --> 00:03:38.041
dealcoholization by vacuum dis- dis-
distillation with aroma recovery.
00:03:38.089 --> 00:03:41.152
That is a lot of words
and a lot of syllables.
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Amber: I have no idea what this means.
00:03:44.010 --> 00:03:47.215
Every time I'm like, how did
they make a wine non-alcoholic?
00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:48.760
I don't understand.
00:03:49.013 --> 00:03:50.778
Steve Jones: There's vacuums involved.
00:03:51.778 --> 00:03:57.886
The tasting notes are that it is an
elegant pale color with a crisp and
00:03:57.886 --> 00:04:02.978
ripe apple nose, beautifully balanced
with a touch of sweetness undercut
00:04:02.978 --> 00:04:05.881
with just the right amount of acidity.
00:04:06.371 --> 00:04:11.498
So it should, I'm guessing it should be in
the champagne family a little bit, right?
00:04:12.344 --> 00:04:13.739
James Kemp: It seems like it, yeah.
00:04:14.382 --> 00:04:16.929
Amber: I've actually heard of sparkling
Chardonnay, and I'm gonna tell you guys,
00:04:17.083 --> 00:04:22.216
and for everyone who is listening, maybe
you wanna go watch this on YouTube because
00:04:22.642 --> 00:04:29.921
I've never in my life opened a bottle of
sparkling wine or prosecco or champagne.
00:04:30.689 --> 00:04:31.629
Could be really bad.
00:04:32.604 --> 00:04:33.016
Steve Jones: Here we go.
00:04:33.161 --> 00:04:33.654
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:04:33.737 --> 00:04:35.912
… Amber: attempt to do
it, and I will narrate.
00:04:36.901 --> 00:04:39.505
You have already opened yours off camera.
00:04:39.536 --> 00:04:41.416
Steve Jones: Yes.
00:04:41.437 --> 00:04:42.593
Amber: Is that a sign that
I should have done that too?
00:04:42.943 --> 00:04:44.493
Steve Jones: I don't know
if it's a sign, but I…
00:04:44.527 --> 00:04:45.314
James Kemp: It's a good idea.
00:04:45.397 --> 00:04:46.243
… Steve Jones: to be ahead.
00:04:46.331 --> 00:04:46.869
I didn't want…
00:04:47.011 --> 00:04:48.760
Amber: You an expert at this, James?
00:04:49.760 --> 00:04:50.251
James Kemp: No.
00:04:50.761 --> 00:04:51.881
I wouldn't say an expert.
00:04:51.927 --> 00:04:54.257
I've opened… I'm more
so than you, I guess.
00:04:55.257 --> 00:04:55.749
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:04:55.846 --> 00:04:58.679
Amber: I did get a tip from Chris
that I should get like a towel.
00:04:59.422 --> 00:04:59.714
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:04:59.729 --> 00:05:01.116
Amber: I have a little dish towel.
00:05:01.521 --> 00:05:02.756
James Kemp: Ooh, okay.
00:05:02.807 --> 00:05:04.017
He didn't give me that tip.
00:05:04.609 --> 00:05:07.486
Steve Jones: I did the towel
tip this morning as well.
00:05:07.634 --> 00:05:08.483
Amber: Over the cork?
00:05:08.764 --> 00:05:10.516
James is just gonna pull
the cork with his hand.
00:05:10.571 --> 00:05:11.355
Steve Jones: Oof.
00:05:11.409 --> 00:05:12.219
James Kemp: Gonna go for it.
00:05:13.141 --> 00:05:14.893
I like to do a very slow.
00:05:15.893 --> 00:05:16.084
Steve Jones: It-
00:05:16.149 --> 00:05:16.931
Amber: Are you twisting it?
00:05:16.941 --> 00:05:18.422
You're not trying to pull straight up.
00:05:18.432 --> 00:05:19.557
You're, like, twisting it.
00:05:19.597 --> 00:05:21.256
James Kemp: I'm gently twisting it up.
00:05:21.316 --> 00:05:21.670
… Steve Jones: back and forth…
00:05:22.337 --> 00:05:23.322
James Kemp: And it's open.
00:05:24.322 --> 00:05:27.092
I like to do it like this so it
doesn't go everywhere, but you
00:05:27.092 --> 00:05:28.607
don't get the traditional pop.
00:05:29.584 --> 00:05:30.199
There we go.
00:05:30.268 --> 00:05:30.531
Steve Jones: There?
00:05:30.569 --> 00:05:31.298
Yeah, I d-
00:05:31.742 --> 00:05:31.979
Amber: Look at that!
00:05:32.130 --> 00:05:33.272
Steve Jones: That's all about what I got.
00:05:33.272 --> 00:05:34.872
I didn't get a bunch that shot out.
00:05:35.042 --> 00:05:35.779
James Kemp: No, that's okay.
00:05:35.844 --> 00:05:37.220
Maybe it's the alcohol makes it go.
00:05:37.706 --> 00:05:38.006
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:05:38.237 --> 00:05:41.608
Amber: I always wonder, like, 'cause
they have these little metal….
00:05:41.754 --> 00:05:43.871
Steve Jones: Did you twist…
You gotta twist that off, Amber.
00:05:44.493 --> 00:05:45.601
James Kemp: Oh yeah, take that off.
00:05:45.927 --> 00:05:46.586
Steve Jones: Twist it.
00:05:47.049 --> 00:05:49.195
The metal piece has
to… Oh, there you go.
00:05:49.195 --> 00:05:49.658
You got it.
00:05:49.658 --> 00:05:50.047
You got it.
00:05:50.257 --> 00:05:52.834
Amber: I was afraid that…
So Chris told me I could put
00:05:52.834 --> 00:05:54.390
a towel on it before I do it.
00:05:54.390 --> 00:05:54.774
No?
00:05:54.800 --> 00:05:55.676
I should just do it?
00:05:56.445 --> 00:05:57.947
James Kemp: You ca- you can.
00:05:58.947 --> 00:05:59.822
Amber: I'm afraid.
00:05:59.877 --> 00:06:00.679
Steve Jones: She's scared.
00:06:01.030 --> 00:06:02.156
She's scared to do it.
00:06:03.156 --> 00:06:03.535
Amber: Okay.
00:06:04.443 --> 00:06:06.013
You're just, like, twist- okay.
00:06:06.096 --> 00:06:07.523
Steve Jones: Just kind
of work it out, yeah.
00:06:07.932 --> 00:06:08.330
Amber: Okay.
00:06:08.526 --> 00:06:10.017
Steve Jones: You don't have
to go one direct- yeah.
00:06:10.340 --> 00:06:10.884
Here we go.
00:06:10.912 --> 00:06:11.728
Here… Oh.
00:06:12.087 --> 00:06:13.673
James Kemp: Oh, that was a good one.
00:06:13.866 --> 00:06:14.968
Amber: I got a pop.
00:06:15.184 --> 00:06:16.780
Steve Jones: She jumped.
00:06:17.282 --> 00:06:17.930
Amber: I did jump.
00:06:18.145 --> 00:06:18.327
It startled me.
00:06:18.473 --> 00:06:19.299
James Kemp: It's dangerous.
00:06:19.379 --> 00:06:20.536
It's a dangerous game.
00:06:21.188 --> 00:06:22.677
Amber: it didn't fly anywhere
00:06:22.873 --> 00:06:23.256
Steve Jones: No.
00:06:23.308 --> 00:06:24.671
Amber: Didn't lose an eye, so that's good.
00:06:25.671 --> 00:06:26.284
Right.
00:06:26.534 --> 00:06:27.970
Now we get the pour.
00:06:28.027 --> 00:06:30.588
James Kemp: I will tell you that
I did not get a champagne glass.
00:06:31.405 --> 00:06:32.504
Amber: Oh, you can just drink
right out of the bottle.
00:06:32.515 --> 00:06:33.905
Steve Jones: Drink it straight
b- straight from the…
00:06:34.184 --> 00:06:37.688
James Kemp: Yeah, straight out of the…
I got a glass, just not a champagne glass.
00:06:38.452 --> 00:06:39.187
I'm not an animal.
00:06:40.187 --> 00:06:41.774
We'll get some sound effects.
00:06:42.774 --> 00:06:46.828
Amber: it is actually very effervescent.
00:06:47.429 --> 00:06:50.642
What I would say, though, about this is…
00:06:51.121 --> 00:06:52.617
James Kemp: Yours looks
more bubbly than mine.
00:06:53.186 --> 00:06:55.342
Amber: I feel like… yeah.
00:06:55.367 --> 00:06:56.636
Steve Jones: Wonder if it's the glass.
00:06:56.758 --> 00:06:57.548
James Kemp: Yeah, maybe.
00:06:57.552 --> 00:06:59.575
Steve Jones: Is yours
chilled or room temperature?
00:07:00.563 --> 00:07:02.742
James Kemp: My, the drink or the glass?
00:07:03.104 --> 00:07:03.856
Steve Jones: The drink, yeah.
00:07:04.665 --> 00:07:05.826
James Kemp: The drink is chilled, yeah.
00:07:05.861 --> 00:07:05.989
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:07:06.037 --> 00:07:10.442
Amber: Yeah, yours doesn't have any…
I mean, it is interesting because we
00:07:10.443 --> 00:07:11.931
bought them from different sources.
00:07:12.436 --> 00:07:13.263
James Kemp: Hmm.
00:07:13.988 --> 00:07:14.521
Amber: Right?
00:07:14.611 --> 00:07:20.567
Because you're in the UK, so we found… I
told Chris, he got it from a place called,
00:07:20.568 --> 00:07:22.238
like, The Whiskey Advocate or something.
00:07:23.238 --> 00:07:23.585
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:07:24.537 --> 00:07:26.866
Amber: And I was like,
"Huh, that's random."
00:07:27.762 --> 00:07:28.477
Steve Jones: Well, what…
00:07:28.494 --> 00:07:30.459
James Kemp: It sounded
fizzy when I poured it, so.
00:07:30.664 --> 00:07:31.249
Steve Jones: Sure did.
00:07:31.264 --> 00:07:31.958
What I found i-
00:07:32.052 --> 00:07:33.700
Amber: That you don't have
the bubbles that I have.
00:07:33.854 --> 00:07:34.288
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:07:35.064 --> 00:07:39.799
I found interesting was that Amber chose a
champagne flute, and I chose a wine glass.
00:07:40.799 --> 00:07:42.135
James Kemp: And I have a whiskey glass.
00:07:42.171 --> 00:07:44.168
Steve Jones: And James
has a wi- whiskey glass.
00:07:44.172 --> 00:07:44.535
There you go.
00:07:45.394 --> 00:07:45.911
Amber: Mm-hmm.
00:07:46.389 --> 00:07:47.377
Steve Jones: Mm. So definitely.
00:07:47.476 --> 00:07:47.884
Amber: Very grape-y.
00:07:48.032 --> 00:07:51.919
Steve Jones: S- yeah, very fruity
and kind of sweet on the nose.
00:07:52.599 --> 00:07:53.639
Amber: Like grape juice.
00:07:54.006 --> 00:07:54.590
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:07:54.705 --> 00:07:56.290
James Kemp: Yeah, it's
quite a strong smell.
00:07:56.658 --> 00:07:57.365
Steve Jones: Yeah, it is.
00:07:58.365 --> 00:07:59.548
Amber: Oh, but it's dry.
00:08:00.548 --> 00:08:02.503
Steve Jones: That, yeah,
that's the Chardonnay.
00:08:02.706 --> 00:08:02.736
Amber: Not too sweet.
00:08:02.834 --> 00:08:03.170
Steve Jones: Kind of…
00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:03.872
James Kemp: Oh, yeah.
00:08:04.872 --> 00:08:05.322
Hmm.
00:08:05.361 --> 00:08:06.340
Steve Jones: It's very dry.
00:08:07.214 --> 00:08:07.244
Amber: Do you get…
00:08:07.403 --> 00:08:07.652
Steve Jones: Even…
00:08:07.743 --> 00:08:08.288
Amber: Apple?
00:08:08.887 --> 00:08:10.365
It's kinda like green apple-y.
00:08:11.054 --> 00:08:12.430
James Kemp: I do get the apple, yeah.
00:08:13.430 --> 00:08:14.715
I'm not sure I like the smell.
00:08:15.674 --> 00:08:17.739
Steve Jones: No, it's a little concerning.
00:08:18.045 --> 00:08:18.705
Is that the right word?
00:08:18.706 --> 00:08:20.403
It's a little off-putting.
00:08:20.899 --> 00:08:21.114
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:08:21.786 --> 00:08:22.774
It's like, is this good?
00:08:23.774 --> 00:08:26.036
Amber: But the flavor
is pretty good, I think.
00:08:26.934 --> 00:08:29.295
But I don't think the
smell matches the flavor.
00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:30.327
James Kemp: No.
00:08:30.419 --> 00:08:32.301
Are you a wine drinker normally?
00:08:32.777 --> 00:08:34.224
Obviously not champagne.
00:08:34.942 --> 00:08:35.341
No.
00:08:35.755 --> 00:08:38.363
Amber: Not a big wine
drinker, I'll be honest.
00:08:38.668 --> 00:08:45.220
Like, I mean, so I would… If I get wine,
which is not very often, then I would
00:08:45.227 --> 00:08:47.831
order either a champagne or a prosecco.
00:08:47.836 --> 00:08:50.595
So I would normally do,
like, a white sparkling wine.
00:08:51.401 --> 00:08:51.523
I…
00:08:51.735 --> 00:08:52.922
James Kemp: And how does this compare?
00:08:53.922 --> 00:08:54.249
Amber: But…
00:08:54.300 --> 00:08:56.129
James Kemp: Prosecco, yeah, I
would usually get a prosecco.
00:08:57.129 --> 00:08:57.159
Amber: I would say.
00:08:57.346 --> 00:08:59.701
James Kemp: If there's a special
occasion, I wouldn't do it normally.
00:09:00.701 --> 00:09:01.585
Steve Jones: Yeah, so…
00:09:01.667 --> 00:09:03.171
Amber: Yeah, like we
have that at Christmas.
00:09:03.608 --> 00:09:04.149
Steve Jones: Yeah, yeah.
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:04.705
Yeah.
00:09:04.717 --> 00:09:04.920
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:09:04.927 --> 00:09:05.657
Exactly.
00:09:06.095 --> 00:09:11.428
Amber: Normally around my house I'm
either drinking a beer or we keep a
00:09:11.428 --> 00:09:13.293
fair bit of whiskey around the house.
00:09:13.538 --> 00:09:16.658
So, it's like one of those two things.
00:09:16.671 --> 00:09:18.552
Not wine, we don't usually go for wine.
00:09:18.627 --> 00:09:20.291
Or every once in a while
Chris will be like, "I'm gonna
00:09:20.293 --> 00:09:21.637
cook a meal that needs wine,"
00:09:22.433 --> 00:09:22.838
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:09:22.846 --> 00:09:25.203
Amber: Be a little left
over and then we'll…
00:09:25.281 --> 00:09:26.981
James Kemp: Yeah, you'd
drink that as well.
00:09:27.047 --> 00:09:27.510
… Amber: from the bottle.
00:09:28.532 --> 00:09:29.335
James Kemp: That makes sense.
00:09:30.250 --> 00:09:32.105
Steve Jones: Yeah, if I go out
for a nice meal, a lot of times I
00:09:32.105 --> 00:09:33.628
do get, like, a Chardonnay wine.
00:09:33.996 --> 00:09:37.212
I do like the ones that are a little
more, less fruity and no bubbles.
00:09:37.565 --> 00:09:38.776
But, this…
00:09:38.870 --> 00:09:39.678
Amber: How does this compare?
00:09:39.728 --> 00:09:43.389
Steve Jones: This does not taste
anything like what I would normally get.
00:09:44.234 --> 00:09:45.797
James Kemp: Does it taste
like a Chardonnay or not?
00:09:46.238 --> 00:09:47.536
Steve Jones: N- no, not at all.
00:09:47.551 --> 00:09:48.252
Not really.
00:09:48.317 --> 00:09:49.812
It tastes like Champagne.
00:09:49.904 --> 00:09:53.924
James Kemp: It's, to me, it tastes
somehow stronger than Champagne.
00:09:54.025 --> 00:09:57.197
Steve Jones: Yeah, it's, I
think they're trying to bring
00:09:57.199 --> 00:09:58.576
that, like, acidity into…
00:09:58.836 --> 00:09:59.705
James Kemp: It back, yeah.
00:10:00.448 --> 00:10:00.830
Steve Jones: But…
00:10:01.633 --> 00:10:04.024
Amber: I feel like it's kind
of bitter on the finish.
00:10:04.122 --> 00:10:04.535
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:10:04.732 --> 00:10:05.107
It's kind…
00:10:05.202 --> 00:10:05.630
Amber: That's what I…
00:10:05.847 --> 00:10:07.426
Steve Jones: …feels like
the nose a little bit to me,
00:10:07.433 --> 00:10:09.980
like the same kind of flavor.
00:10:09.993 --> 00:10:14.335
Like what I smell and then when I
taste in the finish seem similar.
00:10:15.216 --> 00:10:15.616
James Kemp: Hmm.
00:10:16.035 --> 00:10:18.390
Steve Jones: But it's missing the,
it's missing, it's definitely missing
00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:20.009
the warmness from the alcohol.
00:10:21.009 --> 00:10:21.396
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:10:22.396 --> 00:10:27.462
Amber: Yeah, I think, okay, so this is
where we say like thumbs up, thumbs down,
00:10:27.464 --> 00:10:29.003
thumbs in the middle, would you get again?
00:10:29.004 --> 00:10:32.928
And I think where I'm landing
on this is I'm not a huge like
00:10:32.940 --> 00:10:36.936
wine drinker for the flavor and I
don't drink it that much anyway.
00:10:37.870 --> 00:10:44.017
So not to sound like an alcoholic,
but if I'm going to have a sparkling
00:10:44.018 --> 00:10:49.670
wine, I feel like I want the alcohol,
otherwise I don't… I'm like, eh, I
00:10:49.671 --> 00:10:52.261
don't know if I would ever it again.
00:10:53.236 --> 00:10:53.811
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:10:54.168 --> 00:10:55.038
Amber: It's not horrible.
00:10:55.050 --> 00:10:57.893
So I'm kind of in the middle,
but I'm, I'd be like, eh.
00:10:58.350 --> 00:11:01.178
James Kemp: But I think of it
being non-alcoholic, I would
00:11:01.178 --> 00:11:05.134
rather have like, they have a drink
called Schloer here in the UK.
00:11:05.152 --> 00:11:06.054
I don't know if they have it there.
00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:06.676
Amber: that?
00:11:07.068 --> 00:11:10.996
James Kemp: It's basically what
kids drink, I guess, instead of
00:11:11.038 --> 00:11:14.237
like, while everyone's celebrating
with their fancy champagne, they
00:11:14.238 --> 00:11:17.529
would have like this soft… it's
just a fizzy soft drink, basically.
00:11:18.301 --> 00:11:20.048
But it like a f- it's fancified.
00:11:21.048 --> 00:11:26.288
Amber: Okay, so that kind of makes me
think, we have like sparkling apple cider.
00:11:26.936 --> 00:11:28.036
James Kemp: Yeah, it'd be similar.
00:11:28.653 --> 00:11:29.617
Steve Jones: Welch's.
00:11:30.433 --> 00:11:30.903
Amber: Yeah.
00:11:30.903 --> 00:11:35.403
Well, they do the grape, but I never
was into like the sparkling grape.
00:11:36.206 --> 00:11:38.218
And when we were kids, we'd
always do the apple cider.
00:11:38.243 --> 00:11:40.182
I would always pick
that over this, I think.
00:11:41.182 --> 00:11:41.548
Steve Jones: Hmm.
00:11:42.365 --> 00:11:42.692
Yeah.
00:11:42.718 --> 00:11:45.870
Amber: Know if that's just
the nostalgia for when…
00:11:45.947 --> 00:11:46.522
James Kemp: Same.
00:11:46.633 --> 00:11:47.005
Amber: Yeah.
00:11:47.226 --> 00:11:47.855
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:11:48.289 --> 00:11:48.584
Amber: I don't know.
00:11:48.704 --> 00:11:51.288
Steve Jones: Well, if I was going,
if I was going for a Chardonnay, this
00:11:51.288 --> 00:11:53.346
would definitely not be my choice.
00:11:54.131 --> 00:11:54.430
Amber: Yeah.
00:11:55.331 --> 00:11:56.552
But know.
00:11:56.585 --> 00:12:02.071
I did… Part of me did wonder, so we are
recording this at 8:00 AM on a Monday.
00:12:02.275 --> 00:12:06.275
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:12:06.459 --> 00:12:08.699
Amber: Steve and I have to go to
our all hands meeting after this.
00:12:09.699 --> 00:12:10.975
That would be a real interesting meeting.
00:12:11.194 --> 00:12:14.768
But I will say part of me wondered,
like, if I got some orange juice
00:12:14.768 --> 00:12:17.965
and I turned it into a mimosa,
maybe I'd like it a little better.
00:12:18.054 --> 00:12:18.528
All right.
00:12:18.528 --> 00:12:22.906
Well, we are not just here
to talk about beverages.
00:12:23.119 --> 00:12:26.190
We are here, and we mentioned
before we were celebrating.
00:12:26.291 --> 00:12:30.287
I published, I will post a link in the
show notes if anyone wants to look at
00:12:30.288 --> 00:12:36.018
it, a big case study on our website
last week because we wrapped up a
00:12:36.029 --> 00:12:42.690
huge project with WooCommerce that
included accessibility auditing of 43
00:12:42.695 --> 00:12:46.309
plugins and 41 of which got remediated.
00:12:46.309 --> 00:12:49.203
We found out two of them Woo
doesn't actually maintain, so
00:12:49.203 --> 00:12:50.521
you guys couldn't fix them.
00:12:50.877 --> 00:12:54.027
41 got remediated, and we
published accessibility
00:12:54.029 --> 00:12:55.450
conformance reports on all of them.
00:12:55.450 --> 00:12:57.249
It was a huge undertaking.
00:12:57.716 --> 00:13:01.739
I'm sort of curious, James, if you
could give us a little bit of backstory
00:13:01.750 --> 00:13:08.195
information on what prompted WooCommerce
to invest so heavily in accessibility,
00:13:08.973 --> 00:13:12.982
and what did you have to do to get buy-in,
or was everybody just, like, on board?
00:13:13.007 --> 00:13:17.519
Because this was a big undertaking on
both the auditing and the dev front.
00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:21.182
James Kemp: Yeah, it really
was a big undertaking.
00:13:21.344 --> 00:13:26.128
It's been a year and a half or
something maybe since we started.
00:13:26.175 --> 00:13:26.656
Amber: Bit less.
00:13:26.656 --> 00:13:27.145
Yeah.
00:13:27.582 --> 00:13:32.469
James Kemp: And we wrapped up,
I guess, at the end of August.
00:13:32.649 --> 00:13:32.972
Amber: I think, yeah.
00:13:33.022 --> 00:13:33.427
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:13:33.830 --> 00:13:34.180
Yeah.
00:13:34.731 --> 00:13:37.311
So it was a long old project.
00:13:37.418 --> 00:13:42.706
So one of the things that prompted it,
so obviously like with our work that
00:13:42.706 --> 00:13:48.115
we do now, or like new work that we put
into the product, there's guidelines
00:13:48.115 --> 00:13:51.816
and checks and things that happen
at the point of creating the code.
00:13:52.645 --> 00:13:57.901
However, WooCommerce is quite an old
plugin, so there's a lot of code that
00:13:57.901 --> 00:14:03.742
just hasn't had that same level of
checks that happen and also, you know,
00:14:03.763 --> 00:14:06.311
accessibility standards change over time.
00:14:06.409 --> 00:14:10.230
So things that might have been okay
back then aren't necessarily okay now.
00:14:11.229 --> 00:14:21.245
So I think it was… Was it June or
July 2024 when a new law came in the EU?
00:14:21.309 --> 00:14:22.537
It might have been 2025.
00:14:23.201 --> 00:14:24.160
You'll have to remind me.
00:14:25.108 --> 00:14:25.423
Amber: Yeah.
00:14:25.424 --> 00:14:27.967
The European Accessibility Act 2025.
00:14:27.979 --> 00:14:29.628
But I think we knew it was coming.
00:14:29.737 --> 00:14:31.370
James Kemp: Knew it was coming in 2024.
00:14:31.994 --> 00:14:32.433
Amber: Yeah.
00:14:32.688 --> 00:14:32.990
James Kemp: Right.
00:14:33.683 --> 00:14:40.248
So that was, like, a big reason for us
to say, "Okay, our product needs to be
00:14:40.248 --> 00:14:45.598
accessible out of the box." Like, as much
as we can make it accessible just in a
00:14:45.607 --> 00:14:47.724
fresh blank install, we need to do that.
00:14:48.423 --> 00:14:51.773
Because there were some quite
serious repercussions to not being
00:14:51.773 --> 00:14:53.978
accessible, based on that law.
00:14:54.842 --> 00:14:58.618
And those would be repercussions for
the people using WooCommerce and not
00:14:58.619 --> 00:15:00.510
necessarily, you know, us as a company.
00:15:01.377 --> 00:15:06.875
So we really wanted to set people up
as much as possible to be accessible
00:15:06.891 --> 00:15:10.529
out of the box and to not have to
worry about this new law coming in,
00:15:11.146 --> 00:15:15.982
and, you know, for those merchants
to have to go and make individually
00:15:15.983 --> 00:15:17.572
their changes to make it accessible.
00:15:18.572 --> 00:15:23.122
One of the hardest things that we
had to think about was people could
00:15:23.134 --> 00:15:27.927
be running their own theme, custom
themes or, like, any theme that they've
00:15:27.942 --> 00:15:33.215
purchased or downloaded, and that
can completely change the work that
00:15:33.216 --> 00:15:37.312
we've done to make it accessible and
subsequently make it not accessible.
00:15:38.182 --> 00:15:43.301
But like I say, what we wanted to focus
on was that the base of WooCommerce
00:15:43.481 --> 00:15:50.078
and the front-end output was accessible
out of the box, and then anything
00:15:50.080 --> 00:15:55.739
that happens after that is, you know,
down to the theme company or the
00:15:55.739 --> 00:15:57.835
person actually building the website.
00:15:58.678 --> 00:16:00.456
So yeah, that was one of the main drivers.
00:16:00.479 --> 00:16:05.154
Another thing around that
time, there was a WordCamp, I
00:16:05.175 --> 00:16:06.885
think it was WordCamp Europe.
00:16:07.376 --> 00:16:07.660
Steve Jones: Mm-hmm.
00:16:08.392 --> 00:16:10.172
James Kemp: I forget where, maybe Athens.
00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:11.336
Steve Jones: Ital- Italy was
00:16:11.374 --> 00:16:12.702
James Kemp: Yeah, Torino perhaps.
00:16:12.702 --> 00:16:13.007
Yeah.
00:16:13.094 --> 00:16:13.104
Amber: Mm-hmm.
00:16:14.074 --> 00:16:20.129
James Kemp: And I spoke to quite a few
accessibility experts at that time.
00:16:20.291 --> 00:16:24.604
So I spoke to yourself, I spoke to a
couple of other people in, you know,
00:16:24.604 --> 00:16:28.475
running similar sort of accessibility
businesses within WordPress.
00:16:29.199 --> 00:16:33.737
And on top of that, there's
just a real desire for i- the
00:16:33.737 --> 00:16:34.946
internet to be accessible.
00:16:35.676 --> 00:16:39.400
And that is something that we
could massively help to drive.
00:16:39.407 --> 00:16:46.180
So those two things kind of accumulated
into me putting a plan together to say,
00:16:46.209 --> 00:16:52.935
you know, we should focus on making the
output of the WooCommerce front-end code
00:16:53.811 --> 00:17:00.914
accessible, to as high a standard as we
can reasonably, you know, put out there.
00:17:01.914 --> 00:17:03.503
And actually buy-in was pretty easy.
00:17:03.553 --> 00:17:07.763
I just published a post saying, you
know, "This is why we should do it." And
00:17:07.764 --> 00:17:12.156
then I think we spoke to a few people
who would be able to help and eventually
00:17:12.158 --> 00:17:17.153
landed on, you know, you guys doing the
audit and then sort of the follow-ups
00:17:17.156 --> 00:17:18.693
that come with the audit as well.
00:17:18.701 --> 00:17:20.534
So yeah.
00:17:21.534 --> 00:17:21.786
Amber: Yeah.
00:17:22.102 --> 00:17:25.436
Well, that's good to hear that people
were super positive about it and
00:17:25.437 --> 00:17:26.580
there wasn't a bunch of pushback.
00:17:27.580 --> 00:17:27.865
James Kemp: No.
00:17:27.873 --> 00:17:28.091
Amber: So…
00:17:28.212 --> 00:17:30.156
James Kemp: I didn't need to
do much convincing at all.
00:17:30.549 --> 00:17:35.738
I think the scope of the… I
guess the scope of what could
00:17:35.739 --> 00:17:37.121
happen if we don't do this…
00:17:37.693 --> 00:17:37.703
Steve Jones: Mm-hmm.
00:17:38.035 --> 00:17:40.579
… James Kemp: is good
enough reason in itself.
00:17:41.579 --> 00:17:41.589
Amber: Mm-hmm.
00:17:42.589 --> 00:17:42.868
Steve Jones: Cool.
00:17:42.875 --> 00:17:47.712
So, you move from getting buy-in and
setting the stage for why this is
00:17:47.712 --> 00:17:51.688
important and what the implications are
if w- if you don't go down this route.
00:17:52.525 --> 00:17:57.513
So once you get into the project, how do
you start, like, 41 extensions, you got
00:17:57.728 --> 00:18:04.284
WooCommerce Core, how do you take all that
and then start deciding prioritization?
00:18:04.298 --> 00:18:08.183
What gets worked on first, and what
should get priority over the other thing?
00:18:09.183 --> 00:18:09.444
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:18:09.541 --> 00:18:12.857
The initial scope of the
project was WooCommerce Core.
00:18:13.603 --> 00:18:15.368
And Amber, you'll have to remind me.
00:18:15.394 --> 00:18:18.786
That may have included
WooPayments as well.
00:18:19.167 --> 00:18:20.209
Or did that come after?
00:18:21.209 --> 00:18:22.987
Amber: WooPayments was
not in the initial scope.
00:18:22.988 --> 00:18:24.379
That was in the second.
00:18:24.721 --> 00:18:25.091
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:18:25.107 --> 00:18:25.478
Okay.
00:18:25.848 --> 00:18:26.205
Amber: Yeah.
00:18:26.517 --> 00:18:29.154
James Kemp: So yeah, as far as I'm
aware, it's just purely WooCommerce
00:18:29.158 --> 00:18:34.508
Core then, and specifically the
front-end output of WooCommerce Core.
00:18:35.357 --> 00:18:39.588
And I think we lined that work up as
the initial work that we wanted to do.
00:18:39.588 --> 00:18:44.365
We really wanted to make the kind of
base products the-- whi-which we felt was
00:18:44.365 --> 00:18:49.496
gonna be the biggest amount of work, and
I believe it probably was, individually.
00:18:49.965 --> 00:18:54.572
So we focused on that, and then we-- I
think from the beginning, we had this
00:18:54.572 --> 00:19:00.005
idea that, okay, once we've done that,
we then would like to focus on any
00:19:00.005 --> 00:19:04.737
extension that we own, that WooCommerce
own, and make them, you know, bring them
00:19:04.738 --> 00:19:09.160
up to the same level, which in theory,
you know, each, e-each extension should
00:19:09.171 --> 00:19:13.345
be a lot less work because we touch,
you know, less parts of the front end.
00:19:14.342 --> 00:19:20.103
And I guess that was 42 extensions if
the 43 includes WooCommerce itself.
00:19:21.103 --> 00:19:24.399
Amber: Yeah, I don't think that
number on there includes WooCommerce.
00:19:24.431 --> 00:19:26.671
I didn't include that one 'cause
we had written a different case
00:19:26.678 --> 00:19:28.647
study for the WooCommerce work.
00:19:29.647 --> 00:19:30.065
Yeah.
00:19:30.457 --> 00:19:37.881
But it was a combination of payments
add-ons, like payment gateways,
00:19:38.229 --> 00:19:43.526
shipping, and then a lot of add-ons
that kind of modified the product
00:19:43.669 --> 00:19:47.005
experience, and subscriptions.
00:19:47.841 --> 00:19:48.673
James Kemp: Yeah, that's quite.
00:19:49.048 --> 00:19:50.695
Amber: Out what you wanted us to do first?
00:19:50.725 --> 00:19:53.755
'Cause I know you gave me a whole
spreadsheet, and you had gone through and
00:19:53.756 --> 00:19:56.348
said, like, critical, high, medium, low.
00:19:56.924 --> 00:20:02.877
Was it based on user count or what, how
you thought they impacted the front end?
00:20:03.593 --> 00:20:05.104
James Kemp: Yeah, it
was a bit of everything.
00:20:05.195 --> 00:20:07.760
User count for sure, active user count.
00:20:07.774 --> 00:20:11.312
So not just, you know, how many
people have ever used this, how many
00:20:11.313 --> 00:20:12.814
people are currently using this.
00:20:13.301 --> 00:20:19.183
And then it was kind of focused
around the impact to the merchant.
00:20:19.459 --> 00:20:24.462
But also, like, not all of these
extensions have massive front-end output.
00:20:24.508 --> 00:20:31.248
So, I-- we tried to focus on the ones
that would have the most prominent
00:20:31.322 --> 00:20:36.831
front-end output, in terms of, like,
user-facing impact, which plugins would
00:20:36.832 --> 00:20:40.670
actually affect the people trying to
use it who perhaps need, you know,
00:20:40.675 --> 00:20:42.488
these accessibility standards meeting.
00:20:43.342 --> 00:20:46.222
And yeah, there was quite a
variety of extensions there.
00:20:46.233 --> 00:20:51.578
So you mentioned, like, we had payments,
shipping, and I think those extensions
00:20:52.293 --> 00:20:56.370
are probably the ones that have the least
front-end output, and typically their
00:20:56.412 --> 00:20:58.838
output comes from the third party as well.
00:20:59.789 --> 00:21:04.612
Amber: There was some interesting things
with some of the payment ones where
00:21:05.478 --> 00:21:09.960
some of the issues just had to get
surfaced back up to whatever gateway
00:21:10.115 --> 00:21:13.486
because some components are in iframes
and you can't do anything about that.
00:21:14.486 --> 00:21:14.861
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:21:14.868 --> 00:21:16.701
And that's pretty common with payments.
00:21:16.939 --> 00:21:19.539
Probably not with shipping, but
with payment extensions for sure.
00:21:20.539 --> 00:21:23.960
Amber: Like most of the shipping
stuff just came from WooCommerce Core.
00:21:24.049 --> 00:21:24.578
So…
00:21:25.249 --> 00:21:25.627
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:21:25.744 --> 00:21:29.982
Amber: Of those, it turned out we tested
them and they didn't actually need
00:21:29.997 --> 00:21:34.511
much remediation or some- in some cases
they needed zero 'cause the shipping
00:21:34.533 --> 00:21:36.493
controls had already been fixed in Core.
00:21:37.493 --> 00:21:38.361
James Kemp: Yeah, for sure.
00:21:38.466 --> 00:21:45.015
I mean, typically shipping is the check
boxes at the checkout and then maybe some
00:21:45.017 --> 00:21:47.261
output on like the order confirmation.
00:21:47.560 --> 00:21:51.166
I think some shipping extensions put
output on the product page as well.
00:21:51.172 --> 00:21:52.409
I'm not sure if any of ours do.
00:21:53.201 --> 00:21:54.328
But yeah, they're very minimal.
00:21:55.328 --> 00:21:59.702
So yeah, I think it was really around,
you know, that the act- I think the
00:21:59.703 --> 00:22:03.956
usage is one of the biggest things
that, like who's ac- who's actually
00:22:03.956 --> 00:22:08.864
using this that we need to put, you
know, the most effort into that first.
00:22:09.846 --> 00:22:14.021
And then, you know, how much
output and how much impact does
00:22:14.021 --> 00:22:15.439
that have on the people using it?
00:22:16.406 --> 00:22:18.654
Yeah, they were the
very important measures.
00:22:19.654 --> 00:22:22.812
Amber: So I know one of the interesting
things, and I don't know if everybody
00:22:22.813 --> 00:22:28.652
who's listening knows this, but one of
the interesting things about your plugins
00:22:28.675 --> 00:22:32.957
is, well, one, Automattic is a very large
company, so you have multiple teams at
00:22:32.992 --> 00:22:35.473
Automattic who own different plugins.
00:22:35.473 --> 00:22:38.021
It's not like the same
developers work on all of these.
00:22:38.428 --> 00:22:41.610
And you also have a partnership
with Fueled, a separate company,
00:22:41.633 --> 00:22:43.015
to do some of the development.
00:22:43.418 --> 00:22:48.493
I wanna talk a little bit about what
that looks like from a coordinating
00:22:48.506 --> 00:22:53.676
standpoint and how y- you handle, like,
how do we coordinate all this remediation
00:22:53.678 --> 00:22:54.582
with all these different teams?
00:22:54.894 --> 00:22:57.332
But let's take a quick
commercial break, and then when
00:22:57.332 --> 00:22:58.884
we come back, we'll talk about
00:22:58.885 --> 00:22:59.091
that.
00:23:00.611 --> 00:23:04.931
Steve Jones: This episode of Accessibility
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00:23:57.856 --> 00:24:00.816
Download Accessibility Checker today at
EqualizeDigital.com/Accessibility-Checker.
00:24:05.236 --> 00:24:10.276
Use coupon code AccessibilityCraft
to save 10% on any plan.
00:24:13.998 --> 00:24:14.679
Amber: Okay, we're back.
00:24:14.828 --> 00:24:18.754
So James, you have all these plugins,
let's say 41 plugins that are going to be
00:24:18.754 --> 00:24:20.698
remediated and lots of different teams.
00:24:20.986 --> 00:24:23.780
How did you manage that coordination?
00:24:24.780 --> 00:24:25.011
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:24:25.011 --> 00:24:30.307
I mean, it was a challenge, and I think
we had to adapt a little bit to how
00:24:30.315 --> 00:24:34.608
you guys normally work as well, or you
had to adapt to how we wanted to work.
00:24:35.322 --> 00:24:36.898
Because I think we tried--
00:24:37.126 --> 00:24:37.196
… Amber: which we were happy to do, I'll…
00:24:37.489 --> 00:24:38.688
James Kemp: Yeah, of course, yeah.
00:24:39.339 --> 00:24:39.901
Amber: But yeah.
00:24:39.966 --> 00:24:41.159
James Kemp: We tried a few things, right?
00:24:41.159 --> 00:24:45.591
I think your typical way was the
spreadsheets that you provided, which
00:24:45.603 --> 00:24:49.715
kind of list essentially every issue
that we needed to dig into and fix
00:24:49.715 --> 00:24:54.317
and gave a ton of information and
potentially screenshots or links to
00:24:54.321 --> 00:24:55.792
screenshots and things like that.
00:24:56.574 --> 00:24:59.858
As a company, we use
Linear alongside GitHub.
00:25:00.515 --> 00:25:05.127
But a lot of our, a lot of the
extensions that we sell have private
00:25:05.132 --> 00:25:08.975
GitHubs, so Linear was really, like,
the place that we needed to do things.
00:25:09.975 --> 00:25:11.840
And alongside that, we also used Slack.
00:25:12.380 --> 00:25:18.240
So, the first kind of steps were to
get everyone into the same channel
00:25:18.272 --> 00:25:22.270
in Slack, which I think helped,
you know, the coordination between
00:25:22.281 --> 00:25:24.575
you guys, WooCommerce, and Fueled.
00:25:24.613 --> 00:25:28.115
You know, we were all in there, and
able to communicate quite quickly.
00:25:29.035 --> 00:25:34.301
And then any of the relevant
internal teams at WooCommerce, at
00:25:34.322 --> 00:25:36.440
Automattic, were also in that channel.
00:25:37.286 --> 00:25:40.575
So we all had this central place
to talk about the project and get
00:25:40.576 --> 00:25:42.422
questions answered quite quickly.
00:25:43.325 --> 00:25:48.165
And then really it became a
case of, like, transposing these
00:25:48.165 --> 00:25:49.968
spreadsheets into Linear issues.
00:25:50.968 --> 00:25:56.087
And this I-- again, I-- the
timelines are blurry now, but it
00:25:56.089 --> 00:25:58.961
was quite early into the AI…
00:25:59.389 --> 00:25:59.663
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:25:59.683 --> 00:26:01.307
James Kemp: Craze, when we started.
00:26:01.309 --> 00:26:06.935
So one of the things that I did was I
built essentially a, an importer using
00:26:07.036 --> 00:26:14.171
AI, that took the spreadsheet and then
converted that into Linear issues, and
00:26:14.171 --> 00:26:17.309
just made sure that, you know, every
issue that's created had the same sort
00:26:17.309 --> 00:26:22.695
of format, that we were able to label
and flag the accessibility standards
00:26:22.696 --> 00:26:26.835
and the things, you'll have to provide
the name for me, but the things that…
00:26:27.824 --> 00:26:28.309
Amber: The success criteria?
00:26:28.456 --> 00:26:29.147
James Kemp: The issues…
00:26:29.546 --> 00:26:30.827
Yeah, the criterion, yeah.
00:26:31.316 --> 00:26:33.756
The things that those issues
were affecting or breaking.
00:26:34.562 --> 00:26:39.618
And then the teams were obviously able to
go into Linear, find the issues relating
00:26:39.618 --> 00:26:44.565
to their specific plugins, and use Linear
as a way to track the status of each issue
00:26:44.575 --> 00:26:45.883
as they kind of progressed through it.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:51.231
And we added some custom states there
as well, because obviously, like, the
00:26:51.232 --> 00:26:55.411
teams at WooCommerce and the teams
at Fueled and Tenon, they were at the
00:26:55.411 --> 00:26:57.622
time, they work in different ways.
00:26:57.623 --> 00:27:01.276
Like, the states that they use for an
issue are different to each other, so
00:27:01.277 --> 00:27:05.347
we had to kind of centralize that a
bit as well, and really get everyone
00:27:05.347 --> 00:27:07.621
on the same page with those issues.
00:27:07.625 --> 00:27:13.010
But I think moving everything to
Linear, definitely helped the project
00:27:13.010 --> 00:27:14.791
move along a lot more smoothly.
00:27:15.187 --> 00:27:17.885
The spreadsheets were, I think, a
little bit challenging for people
00:27:17.886 --> 00:27:23.024
to, you know, come out of this, like,
Linear mindset into a spreadsheet.
00:27:23.864 --> 00:27:25.279
So yeah, I think it ended up pretty well.
00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:26.602
Amber: Mm-hmm.
00:27:27.416 --> 00:27:31.070
I think that was a big thing that,
you know, we modified to try and
00:27:31.070 --> 00:27:33.473
work with you all in your workflow.
00:27:34.302 --> 00:27:34.764
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:27:35.764 --> 00:27:38.991
Amber: You know, we had a lot of
conversation in this realizing, one, this
00:27:38.992 --> 00:27:44.982
is not just one developer who's fixing
all of the issues or two, it could be 15.
00:27:45.426 --> 00:27:45.853
Steve Jones: Mm-hmm.
00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:46.599
Amber: More, right?
00:27:46.611 --> 00:27:50.300
Different developers that have to
touch this and, you know, we always
00:27:50.301 --> 00:27:53.993
wanna make sure that we make it
as easy as possible for you all.
00:27:54.005 --> 00:27:57.427
And so for us, like, if we can
integrate into your normal workflow,
00:27:57.444 --> 00:28:01.149
then that's going to reduce friction,
which then ultimately means issues
00:28:01.149 --> 00:28:03.463
are gonna get fixed faster, so.
00:28:03.570 --> 00:28:03.930
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:28:04.769 --> 00:28:07.314
Yeah, I re- I remember when that
happened, 'cause on the product
00:28:07.314 --> 00:28:11.089
side, Equalize Digital's product
side, we utilize a similar workflow
00:28:11.103 --> 00:28:13.111
with Linear and GitHub and Slack.
00:28:13.186 --> 00:28:17.120
And that's the unique thing that we
do with these audits and remediations
00:28:17.132 --> 00:28:20.954
a lot of the time is Amber's able to
actually, you know, adapt her team
00:28:20.954 --> 00:28:23.176
to whatever workflows that you have.
00:28:23.554 --> 00:28:26.493
But it was interesting on our end, 'cause
it was Amber's like, "Hey, I got questions
00:28:26.493 --> 00:28:29.666
about Linear." You know, it's like,
it's like, well, we got that knowledge.
00:28:29.667 --> 00:28:30.388
We can help you out.
00:28:31.388 --> 00:28:31.429
So…
00:28:31.752 --> 00:28:35.524
James Kemp: Have you found that your
sort of process for doing that now
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:40.142
has changed slightly or is it-- does
it depend who you're working with?
00:28:41.142 --> 00:28:43.714
Amber: Yeah, I think on the
audit side, it does still really
00:28:43.715 --> 00:28:45.472
depend who we're working with.
00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:50.137
So our… We don't create the
issues in the spreadsheets.
00:28:50.294 --> 00:28:52.108
Like, that's the other thing
that's kind of interesting.
00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:54.900
We have a whole, like, site
that we've built that has our
00:28:54.914 --> 00:28:56.654
issues library and that we use.
00:28:56.870 --> 00:29:01.492
And I know for a while we had tried
to figure out, could we just have our
00:29:01.593 --> 00:29:06.741
audit site link over to your Linear
and create issues on form submit
00:29:06.773 --> 00:29:08.458
basically every time an issue is saved?
00:29:08.482 --> 00:29:12.047
But then we determined that I didn't have
the right permissions in Automattic's
00:29:12.052 --> 00:29:14.383
Linear for me to be able to create
those issues, so we're like, "Okay,
00:29:14.383 --> 00:29:16.789
we're still gonna put them in a sheet,
and then you'll import them," 'cause
00:29:16.789 --> 00:29:18.009
you'd already built the importer.
00:29:19.009 --> 00:29:19.452
But no.
00:29:19.455 --> 00:29:23.181
I mean, for us, I think we very
much like to work with wherever
00:29:23.181 --> 00:29:24.721
our customers work, and it is…
00:29:24.858 --> 00:29:27.321
Like, we've had people where they
don't use Linear, but they use
00:29:27.322 --> 00:29:28.985
GitHub, so we're directly in GitHub.
00:29:28.994 --> 00:29:31.449
That's how we're doing work
for Gravity Forms, for example.
00:29:31.822 --> 00:29:39.452
Or we have, you know, other people
where, you know, they have any sort of
00:29:40.218 --> 00:29:41.749
any of those integrations built out.
00:29:41.749 --> 00:29:43.461
Like surprisingly, you might…
00:29:43.465 --> 00:29:49.317
But even very large organizations don't
have super solid dev workflows, or they
00:29:49.958 --> 00:29:52.255
don't have an in-house developer, so
they've never built that, and they're
00:29:52.255 --> 00:29:54.966
just working with whatever their vendor
is, and then their vendor comes to us,
00:29:54.992 --> 00:30:00.505
and they're like, they wanna work on,
like, a Basecamp project with us, or
00:30:00.868 --> 00:30:02.902
they are fine with the spreadsheet.
00:30:02.907 --> 00:30:06.744
So you know, it is… It's one of those
things I think we've learned over time,
00:30:06.744 --> 00:30:10.221
is that we just need to adapt and try
and create, like, the least amount of
00:30:10.221 --> 00:30:15.302
friction for the customer so that it's
w- well… And we've found, too, that
00:30:15.596 --> 00:30:18.970
with the way we create them, we can
get them into a CSV, and then generally
00:30:18.970 --> 00:30:20.640
that allows you to import anywhere.
00:30:21.129 --> 00:30:21.528
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:30:21.694 --> 00:30:23.974
Amber: If somebody uses a
different project management tool,
00:30:23.975 --> 00:30:25.408
then they could import that in.
00:30:25.427 --> 00:30:30.319
I know we do work for LiquidWeb,
and they use Jira and a lot of that,
00:30:30.323 --> 00:30:32.146
and all the NASA stuff was in Jira.
00:30:32.644 --> 00:30:36.484
And so it's kind of like we try to
work wherever works for you all.
00:30:37.484 --> 00:30:38.178
James Kemp: That makes sense.
00:30:39.178 --> 00:30:39.188
Amber: Yeah.
00:30:40.188 --> 00:30:45.909
Are there any issues that came up
that was surprising to you all?
00:30:45.910 --> 00:30:48.491
Or I know, I don't know if you
had time to think about this in
00:30:48.491 --> 00:30:52.042
advance, or anything that required
a lot of discussion internally.
00:30:53.042 --> 00:30:54.817
James Kemp: Honestly, I
don't know that there was.
00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:59.748
I guess you touched on it earlier,
like one of the main issues that we
00:30:59.751 --> 00:31:04.085
had is when an issue wasn't actually
something that we could fix, but we
00:31:04.085 --> 00:31:08.422
had to kind of take it upstream, and
take it to the actual, you know, third
00:31:08.422 --> 00:31:11.240
parties, typically the payment providers.
00:31:12.054 --> 00:31:15.519
Although I think Pinterest was one
that had similar issues, right?
00:31:15.545 --> 00:31:18.673
And we were able to take it to them,
and they would fix that on their side.
00:31:19.257 --> 00:31:25.227
So actually, like, it's quite interesting
that doing that on our side has actually
00:31:25.229 --> 00:31:30.287
helped, you know, people that aren't
using WooCommerce that are just using,
00:31:30.565 --> 00:31:34.659
you know, these solutions elsewhere
to also become more accessible.
00:31:35.324 --> 00:31:36.096
So that's pretty cool.
00:31:37.024 --> 00:31:37.548
But yeah.
00:31:37.643 --> 00:31:37.812
Amber: Mm-hmm.
00:31:38.812 --> 00:31:39.999
James Kemp: There was a lot of issues.
00:31:40.999 --> 00:31:42.366
So I c- I can't…
00:31:42.575 --> 00:31:43.251
Amber: 500.
00:31:43.620 --> 00:31:45.062
James Kemp: It's hard to pick one, yeah.
00:31:45.179 --> 00:31:48.820
Steve Jones: So the bulk of the
issues as a whole was actually
00:31:48.931 --> 00:31:50.565
what was kinda surprising, right?
00:31:51.565 --> 00:31:54.554
James Kemp: Yeah, I mean,
do you recall how many there
00:31:54.555 --> 00:31:56.327
were for WooCommerce itself?
00:31:57.327 --> 00:32:00.307
Amber: I don't remember the exact
number, but it was over 100.
00:32:00.581 --> 00:32:05.740
It might have been 160
to 80 or something maybe.
00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:07.932
So it was closer to 200.
00:32:08.932 --> 00:32:12.095
I mean, I'll say having looked at
all of these, one of the things was
00:32:12.109 --> 00:32:18.838
it was definitely really clear which
of the extensions were older than
00:32:18.855 --> 00:32:22.225
others, because there were some where
it was like, oh, there's one thing.
00:32:22.964 --> 00:32:25.614
So one- an extension only had one issue.
00:32:25.931 --> 00:32:31.061
So that, like, 520 or so issues
that we reported wasn't evenly
00:32:31.061 --> 00:32:34.716
divided across 41 plugins.
00:32:35.630 --> 00:32:35.834
It…
00:32:36.153 --> 00:32:36.847
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:41.616
Amber: Yeah, I do know there was
some stuff related to product vendors
00:32:42.109 --> 00:32:47.606
that… But that was an interesting
one because we did end up going
00:32:47.606 --> 00:32:55.169
into the admin a little bit because
a product vendor customer goes.
00:32:55.293 --> 00:32:56.173
James Kemp: Is the user.
00:32:56.342 --> 00:32:56.878
Yeah.
00:32:56.906 --> 00:32:59.654
Amber: Yeah, it is, it-- That one was
a really weird one where we had to have
00:32:59.655 --> 00:33:03.940
a conversation about how much into the
admin are we going because these, those
00:33:03.940 --> 00:33:08.251
are like the users of the merchant's
store, and they're going into the admin
00:33:08.270 --> 00:33:10.402
to create products and view reports.
00:33:10.752 --> 00:33:15.451
And so there was some stuff that got
fixed, and I do think something that was
00:33:15.451 --> 00:33:19.577
a little surprising to me about that,
and I know that one was an older plugin,
00:33:20.002 --> 00:33:23.533
was there were a few things where I would
look at it and say, "Oh, I think this
00:33:23.541 --> 00:33:27.029
is actually a problem for WooCommerce
core admin," and then I would go flag
00:33:27.031 --> 00:33:30.864
it, and then someone would be like,
"This got fixed in WooCommerce core
00:33:30.866 --> 00:33:33.564
like a year ago," or whatever, right?
00:33:33.564 --> 00:33:35.011
Like, it's already been resolved.
00:33:36.011 --> 00:33:39.673
And, I was like, "But wait, I still see
it." And then we're realizing that I think
00:33:39.674 --> 00:33:44.743
there were some legacy things in product
vendors that weren't pulling off of core
00:33:45.702 --> 00:33:48.020
of the way that older plugin was created.
00:33:48.024 --> 00:33:51.239
So even though the component
looked identical, the code
00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:52.481
still lived in product vendors.
00:33:52.532 --> 00:33:55.014
So we'd have to go back and be like,
"Okay, wait, we closed this GitHub
00:33:55.014 --> 00:33:58.979
issue for WooCommerce core. Go back
into product vendors and reopen it."
00:33:58.980 --> 00:34:00.595
And that one, I think, surprised me.
00:34:00.596 --> 00:34:03.797
But I… And I don't know if you have any
thoughts, James, about like how that whole
00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:06.022
development process has changed over time.
00:34:06.642 --> 00:34:09.051
James Kemp: Yeah, I mean, that
is an interesting product because
00:34:09.063 --> 00:34:12.561
it's also the product we use
on the WooCommerce marketplace.
00:34:13.257 --> 00:34:20.559
And if I'm not mistaken, I think they
have, like, a custom iteration of product
00:34:20.564 --> 00:34:22.218
vendors for the WooCommerce marketplace.
00:34:23.017 --> 00:34:25.331
So there's, like, an added
level of complexity there.
00:34:25.406 --> 00:34:30.155
Like, if we wanna take the base product
vendors and put it into the marketplace,
00:34:30.863 --> 00:34:32.435
I think that becomes quite challenging.
00:34:32.597 --> 00:34:36.982
But yeah, I don't… I'm not on that team,
so I'm not too clued up with the details.
00:34:36.983 --> 00:34:41.460
But yeah, like you say, it was quite,
it was quite interesting that we had
00:34:41.470 --> 00:34:45.979
to start transitioning what we were
looking at and, like, shaping our
00:34:45.979 --> 00:34:48.275
definition of what front-end output is.
00:34:48.657 --> 00:34:50.785
Because to a vendor, like,
that is what they see.
00:34:50.839 --> 00:34:53.599
They're on the back end, but, you
know, they're, they are the user.
00:34:54.390 --> 00:34:59.709
And I think if we look at, like, the EU
accessibility law that came in, there's
00:34:59.711 --> 00:35:05.128
definitions around, like, how that then
becomes something that, you know, is
00:35:05.134 --> 00:35:07.269
part of those rules, part of that law.
00:35:07.349 --> 00:35:08.916
So yeah, that was definitely interesting.
00:35:09.524 --> 00:35:15.492
In terms of how engineering has
changed since, you know, the older
00:35:15.555 --> 00:35:20.621
plugins to the newer plugins and even
some of the older plugins, you know,
00:35:20.687 --> 00:35:24.024
that just get heavily updated, like
subscriptions and things like that.
00:35:24.723 --> 00:35:27.238
I don't know too many details
'cause obviously I wasn't here.
00:35:27.987 --> 00:35:33.639
But, as I touched on at the beginning,
I think there's a lot of rules
00:35:33.641 --> 00:35:36.647
that have changed, I guess, over
time in terms of accessibility.
00:35:37.274 --> 00:35:43.636
And a lot of them can now be caught
in automations via, you know, GitHub.
00:35:43.649 --> 00:35:47.054
We have all these automations
that fire on every pull request.
00:35:47.792 --> 00:35:51.242
And these accessibility aspects
are part of that as well.
00:35:52.242 --> 00:35:56.530
So I would say, like, I would expect
that a lot more of that stuff gets caught
00:35:57.530 --> 00:36:01.999
before it's even merged into the product,
which is, you know, what you want really.
00:36:02.172 --> 00:36:07.338
I think- Even still, like after this
project, which we've only just wrapped
00:36:07.347 --> 00:36:10.392
up, I think there'll probably be some
more things that we need to add to that
00:36:10.438 --> 00:36:14.882
and, you know, catch some of the stuff
that might not be as easy to catch.
00:36:15.882 --> 00:36:16.599
Steve Jones: Yeah, totally.
00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:20.185
I mean, I think, you know, shifting those
things left into the beginning of the
00:36:20.185 --> 00:36:26.589
project definitely helps see accessibil-
accessibility through completion, and it's
00:36:26.589 --> 00:36:30.888
nice when the process like this kind of
opens the dev team's eyes to these issues,
00:36:30.889 --> 00:36:35.137
that they're real, and they're slightly
painful to remediate after the fact.
00:36:35.963 --> 00:36:36.461
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:36:36.776 --> 00:36:39.734
Steve Jones: So catching those
upfront I think is definitely key,
00:36:39.734 --> 00:36:43.444
and I think it's a great takeaway
for your dev team from this process.
00:36:44.419 --> 00:36:49.064
So I think we should shift a little
bit into the conformance reports
00:36:49.065 --> 00:36:51.272
here that you two put together.
00:36:52.272 --> 00:36:56.036
There were 41 accessibility conformance
reports as part of this project.
00:36:57.036 --> 00:37:02.687
This is not something we see in the
WordPress plugin space a lot, and
00:37:02.786 --> 00:37:06.786
maybe I know Amber played a big part in
this as well, so maybe you both could
00:37:06.786 --> 00:37:10.256
speak to a little bit of why… mean,
maybe James you could speak to why,
00:37:10.425 --> 00:37:14.601
you know, being transparent with the
level of accessibility in these plugins
00:37:14.609 --> 00:37:19.436
and in WooCommerce Core was important.
00:37:19.789 --> 00:37:24.153
And Amber, maybe you could speak a
little bit on kind of the depth the
00:37:24.154 --> 00:37:29.170
time and effort that went into drafting
all of those conformance reports.
00:37:30.170 --> 00:37:30.943
James Kemp: Yeah, for sure.
00:37:31.002 --> 00:37:33.877
I mean, I won't take any credit
for drafting those reports.
00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:35.515
I don't think I did anything.
00:37:36.515 --> 00:37:38.128
But yeah, I know they were a ton of work.
00:37:38.547 --> 00:37:43.298
On my side, I think there's a
few reasons why we wanted them.
00:37:44.026 --> 00:37:47.329
And you'll see if you go to the
WooCommerce marketplace that we actually,
00:37:47.343 --> 00:37:49.381
like, link to them from the product pages.
00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:54.315
I think one of the reasons, again, comes
back to the laws that are in place for
00:37:54.747 --> 00:37:59.509
acce-accessibility as a merchant is
choosing an extension for their website.
00:37:59.988 --> 00:38:03.224
Typically, like, the bigger merchants
know that they have to abide by
00:38:03.225 --> 00:38:07.249
these laws, otherwise there's
repercussions that could happen.
00:38:07.901 --> 00:38:11.514
So for them, it makes them more confident
in choosing a product to put onto their
00:38:11.515 --> 00:38:16.606
stores that they can see, like, okay,
this specific exte-extension is up to the
00:38:16.608 --> 00:38:20.792
standard that we need to meet versus this
other one that maybe hasn't, you know,
00:38:21.227 --> 00:38:23.178
hasn't got any indication of a report.
00:38:23.954 --> 00:38:25.313
So that's one of the reasons.
00:38:25.314 --> 00:38:29.541
I think another is it's quite
a good indicator of quality.
00:38:30.287 --> 00:38:36.280
You know, for an extension to actually
measure, in as much detail as these
00:38:36.281 --> 00:38:41.840
reports measure accessibility, is just a
sign that who- whoever's building this,
00:38:41.917 --> 00:38:46.276
you know, cares about the users, the
final output and results of what this
00:38:46.276 --> 00:38:48.089
extension looks like and how it works.
00:38:49.089 --> 00:38:51.906
So yeah, I think those are, you
know, a couple of the driving
00:38:51.907 --> 00:38:58.407
factors, and obviously I don't know
that the reports necessarily do it.
00:38:58.407 --> 00:39:02.416
I'm not sure what, you know, how
many impacted people that, you know,
00:39:02.446 --> 00:39:06.998
require this level of accessibility
actually look at the reports.
00:39:07.998 --> 00:39:11.428
Maybe you've got some data on
that, but I think it will help
00:39:11.635 --> 00:39:13.259
them as well, you know, to…
00:39:13.977 --> 00:39:17.913
I know there's quite a few in the
WordPress community who are impacted
00:39:17.913 --> 00:39:22.377
by this, these things, and I expect
that they will look specifically
00:39:22.379 --> 00:39:27.327
for extensions that, you know, meet
the criteria that they require.
00:39:27.341 --> 00:39:32.414
So, yeah, I think it's kind of beneficial
all round, but it definitely to me adds
00:39:32.416 --> 00:39:35.298
a level of, like a stamp of quality.
00:39:36.298 --> 00:39:37.186
Amber: Yeah, I agree.
00:39:37.188 --> 00:39:44.821
I think really what I love about seeing
plugins publish these is that it makes it
00:39:44.848 --> 00:39:50.732
easier for the people building websites
to be able to choose plugins and tools
00:39:51.130 --> 00:39:57.868
and know… And, it doesn't necessarily
mean that if something has an issue, you
00:39:57.869 --> 00:40:03.501
aren't going to use the plugin because
sometimes we said, "This issue exists
00:40:03.795 --> 00:40:06.132
if you have this configuration," right?
00:40:06.449 --> 00:40:12.086
Stripe was one where they had issues with
link, which interestingly after this it
00:40:12.089 --> 00:40:16.843
made me go, like, test the link on our
checkout page which uses Easy Digital
00:40:16.847 --> 00:40:19.299
Downloads to sell our software, right?
00:40:19.300 --> 00:40:21.784
And so it's like everywhere
that link embeds.
00:40:21.794 --> 00:40:22.475
It's an iframe.
00:40:22.483 --> 00:40:23.636
So we reported it up to them.
00:40:23.893 --> 00:40:26.380
Stripe got back to me and they
said, "Oh, we're actually completely
00:40:26.381 --> 00:40:30.056
rebuilding this entire component. We
are aware of accessibility problems,"
00:40:30.459 --> 00:40:32.236
but those haven't been fixed yet.
00:40:32.303 --> 00:40:34.856
Well, we didn't wanna wait on the
accessibility conformance report,
00:40:34.858 --> 00:40:39.338
so we published that for WooCommerce
and it just says, "If you enable
00:40:39.345 --> 00:40:41.999
link, these issues will exist.
00:40:42.018 --> 00:40:42.546
If you don't
00:40:42.892 --> 00:40:43.285
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:40:43.305 --> 00:40:46.707
Amber: And you just use it for credit
card processing and stuff, then
00:40:47.446 --> 00:40:48.797
issues will not apply to you," right?
00:40:48.808 --> 00:40:52.276
So I think one of the things that's
cool about an accessibility conformance
00:40:52.276 --> 00:40:58.014
report is it's not just like should I use
this or not, it's, I could use this with
00:40:58.014 --> 00:41:03.497
certain settings or configurations and
then you're aware of what the options are.
00:41:04.421 --> 00:41:07.811
And something we've been
doing for our plugins and I'm
00:41:07.812 --> 00:41:09.258
hoping to see more plugins do.
00:41:09.517 --> 00:41:16.076
I love that you all added that link
in the directory because I think now
00:41:16.124 --> 00:41:19.587
any plugins… I was just thinking I
need to go see if that'll make sure
00:41:19.588 --> 00:41:23.392
that link is available for our plugin
which is on WooCommerce marketplace
00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:27.682
because I think any plugins can now
put their accessibility conformance
00:41:27.683 --> 00:41:30.941
report on there and make it visible
in the WooCommerce marketplace.
00:41:30.948 --> 00:41:34.537
So even third-party WooCommerce
plugins could be adding these as well.
00:41:35.537 --> 00:41:35.886
James Kemp: Yep.
00:41:36.040 --> 00:41:37.122
Yeah, exactly right.
00:41:37.805 --> 00:41:39.087
Amber: You had asked about time.
00:41:39.089 --> 00:41:39.591
I don't know.
00:41:39.591 --> 00:41:42.405
It was a big of the project.
00:41:42.472 --> 00:41:47.705
I'll say I actually ended up… James
asked me at one point, 'cause I think
00:41:47.706 --> 00:41:50.869
I sent you… We create these in
Google Docs, and I sent you that, and
00:41:50.869 --> 00:41:56.616
you were like, you guys post these on
our website?" And that motivated me.
00:41:56.649 --> 00:42:00.415
I ended up building a tool for these
because if anyone hasn't seen them,
00:42:00.415 --> 00:42:04.759
they have tables in them, and you
need to have row headers, which the
00:42:04.763 --> 00:42:09.181
WordPress table block does not yet
support, which is a giant bummer.
00:42:09.867 --> 00:42:14.174
So I was like, "Okay, so we're gonna
have to use an HTML block in order to
00:42:14.217 --> 00:42:17.163
make these tables accessible 'cause
we want the reports to be accessible."
00:42:17.200 --> 00:42:24.675
But when you pull out of Google Docs
table HTML is horrible, not good.
00:42:25.675 --> 00:42:31.435
So it i- it actually motivated me to build
a separate tool so that I could export
00:42:31.436 --> 00:42:37.780
the Google Doc as HTML, then I copy the
table HTML out of, like, the dev tools
00:42:37.782 --> 00:42:43.832
inspector, and I paste it into this code
or this input field on our audit site.
00:42:43.879 --> 00:42:49.623
And then it converts it into a for
accessibility, remove all the weird
00:42:49.636 --> 00:42:54.396
Google, like, class names and all
that stuff, and give me code that
00:42:54.397 --> 00:42:57.522
I can paste into the block editor
and it'll just make it an HTML block
00:42:57.522 --> 00:42:58.648
with all the right accessibility.
00:42:59.015 --> 00:43:02.756
So you asking me to do that, and I
was like, "There's no way we're hand
00:43:02.757 --> 00:43:06.477
coding all these tables," James,
motivated me to create a cool tool
00:43:06.478 --> 00:43:10.759
for us that I use now, that I can
use to convert Google Doc tables.
00:43:10.762 --> 00:43:11.575
So it's kind of fun.
00:43:12.575 --> 00:43:12.830
James Kemp: Nice.
00:43:12.843 --> 00:43:13.233
Yeah.
00:43:13.313 --> 00:43:15.653
There's so many tables in those reports.
00:43:16.653 --> 00:43:17.874
So many tables.
00:43:18.375 --> 00:43:18.693
Amber: Yeah.
00:43:18.735 --> 00:43:21.836
If you had to, like, hand create
them all, it would not be good.
00:43:22.836 --> 00:43:23.201
So.
00:43:24.201 --> 00:43:29.348
Well, we're about wrapping up,
but I am sort of curious how much
00:43:29.349 --> 00:43:33.017
you can say, James, about what
might be next for accessibility
00:43:33.031 --> 00:43:37.986
at WooCommerce, and if there's
anything we can tease on that front.
00:43:38.986 --> 00:43:39.324
James Kemp: Yeah.
00:43:39.331 --> 00:43:40.010
I mean.
00:43:40.047 --> 00:43:40.117
Amber: I'm gonna put you on the spot.
00:43:40.405 --> 00:43:42.053
James Kemp: Like we s- Yeah.
00:43:43.053 --> 00:43:47.389
Like we say, I think there's a ton
that we can take from all of the
00:43:47.389 --> 00:43:52.527
projects that we've done so far, and
just really improve the automations
00:43:52.528 --> 00:43:56.083
that happen at the point of PRs and
try and catch this stuff up front.
00:43:56.936 --> 00:44:01.039
One of the things that we really
want to look at, I d- I don't know
00:44:01.041 --> 00:44:05.240
that we're ready to look at it yet
because of how, you know, WordPress
00:44:05.247 --> 00:44:06.980
is changing on the back end.
00:44:07.010 --> 00:44:11.554
But is the back end, you know, output
of WooCommerce as well, and just make
00:44:11.554 --> 00:44:14.600
sure that is, as accessible as possible.
00:44:14.627 --> 00:44:21.627
I th- I think if we looked at the product
editor, for example, there's so much stuff
00:44:21.632 --> 00:44:25.984
going on there, and it's all very, very
custom, in terms of like, you know, the
00:44:25.984 --> 00:44:27.705
variation editor and things like that.
00:44:28.251 --> 00:44:33.498
I expect there's plenty of accessibility
issues that exist in the back end of
00:44:33.537 --> 00:44:35.942
WooCommerce and WordPress in general.
00:44:36.724 --> 00:44:38.612
So I'd really like to look
at that at some point.
00:44:39.021 --> 00:44:44.401
But yeah, I think with the shift to
the site editor, block editing, things
00:44:44.401 --> 00:44:48.207
like that, I d- I don't know what that
looks like yet, but that is what I
00:44:48.207 --> 00:44:50.049
would like to tackle at some point.
00:44:51.049 --> 00:44:51.431
Steve Jones: Yeah.
00:44:51.517 --> 00:44:55.714
Well, James, we appreciate having you
here, and we appreciate your dedication
00:44:55.730 --> 00:45:00.555
and your advocacy towards accessibility
in WooCommerce and Automattic and
00:45:00.555 --> 00:45:05.567
just how this is leveling that product
up and the care that you've taken to
00:45:05.585 --> 00:45:11.536
ensure that your customers are creating
accessible websites is much appreciated.
00:45:12.536 --> 00:45:15.574
Now where can, where can people reach
out to you if they have additional
00:45:15.574 --> 00:45:17.301
questions or want to follow up?
00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:18.586
What are your socials?
00:45:19.551 --> 00:45:23.156
James Kemp: Yeah, I would say
X, James C. Kemp, and I'm pretty
00:45:23.157 --> 00:45:25.164
much James C. Kemp everywhere.
00:45:26.164 --> 00:45:26.558
Steve Jones: Cool.
00:45:27.558 --> 00:45:28.220
Amber: Wonderful.
00:45:29.220 --> 00:45:33.586
Thank you, as Steve said, for being
here, and everybody, we'll be back
00:45:33.586 --> 00:45:35.198
in two weeks with another episode.
00:45:35.248 --> 00:45:38.157
Don't forget to hit the like
button and the subscribe.
00:45:38.369 --> 00:45:39.707
I forgot to say that earlier.
00:45:39.970 --> 00:45:40.701
Please do that.
00:45:41.701 --> 00:45:46.231
And thanks, James, for joining us and
helping make the web more accessible.
00:45:47.036 --> 00:45:49.178
James Kemp: Thanks for having me and
for all the work you guys put in.
00:45:50.178 --> 00:45:50.741
Steve Jones: All righty.
00:45:51.741 --> 00:45:52.219
Amber: Bye.
00:45:52.263 --> 00:45:52.641
James Kemp: Cheers.
00:45:53.855 --> 00:45:56.165
Thanks for listening
to Accessibility Craft.
00:45:56.285 --> 00:46:00.305
If you found this episode valuable, please
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00:46:00.305 --> 00:46:03.575
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00:46:04.185 --> 00:46:07.281
Accessibility Craft is a production
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00:46:07.281 --> 00:46:08.961
Jones composed our theme music.
00:46:09.236 --> 00:46:12.356
To learn how Equalize Digital can
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00:46:12.356 --> 00:46:15.156
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