Algorithmic Lives, Digital Tribes: Tulsi Mehrotra Menon on Work, Identity, and the Human-Machine Future

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Hi everyone, this is Sim. This is Ko. And welcome to another episode of Work in Progress.
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Today we have with us Sohsi Manan who is born and raised in Bangalore, India. She earned
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her Bachelors of Arts in Anthropology from Maccaster College and her Masters in Digital
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Anthropology at UCL London. She subsequently worked there for a few years before returning
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to India. Through that period, she solidified her vision of applying anthropological practices
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in the corporate environment and now has switched to being an independent consultant and that's
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how we sort of reached out to her. What's really beautiful is she advocates for bringing
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anthropology out of academia and into business applications. She emphasizes on the importance
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of understanding how brands can fit into people's lives rather than forcing people to fit into
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a brand's life. Her expertise particularly shines in crafting strategies for the complex
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Indian market, whether working with established brands or those new to the landscape. She's
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also been featured as a speaker at TEDx where she discussed the application of anthropological
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practices in business context, which everyone should check out because I learned a lot when
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I watched that talk. So thank you so much for being here.
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But just I think building off of what Ko said about your introduction about taking traditional
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anthropology and taking it away from academia. I remember when I was in college, we had a
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business anthropology course and we were learning things about the Khasis of Meghalaya and how
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that maybe showcases a matriarchal structure and showcases how maybe women have more spending
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power or influence on spending decisions or like the Dabba Walas of Mumbai and how that
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also like logistical system is something we can learn from. So from your experience,
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how the anthropology you practice either builds on such concepts that we learn in school or
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is it completely different?
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No, it's it's building upon that. It's really just understanding why people are why they
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are what makes us who we are what makes us as a community who we are. And I just use
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the same practices and apply it into the business world and why I've applied it into the business
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world is because it's a really interesting confluence of people from all over the world
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or all different walks of life that come together in one office or come together at one agency.
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And you're starting to see just how different cultures come together in one physical space.
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And that was one of the things that really excited me about studying business anthropology.
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I think like before getting into that just a little bit about why like your background,
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your parts like what made you curious enough to actually get into it in the first place.
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Okay, yeah, sure. So I when I was doing my A levels in Bangalore, I was doing sociology
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and there were just all these subjects that I was trying out and when my teacher when she was
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teaching it to me, it just felt right because it was helping me understand people and it was
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just such a broader perspective. It was opening my eyes to just I never seen the world in that
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way. I'd always I think I'd always had this sense of curiosity always love to hear people's stories.
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This helped me put kind of a framework to that. So when I went to do my bachelors,
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much to my parents, Indian parents just made they were like go do economics, go do engineering,
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do something in that field. And I took one anthropology class and honestly just fell in love.
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And it was it was one of those things that I knew that I'd found kind of my calling in a way or
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I just found what I wanted to do. But I think the switch that had happened from just pure anthropology
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to business anthropology or anthropology in the corporate world happened while I was at McAllister
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was because when you studied anthropology and this is what oh gosh, I don't know how many years ago
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now but how many ever years ago, it was a lot of the communities you study are tribal. A lot of
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the communities you study are what I realized were very close to our communities. So a lot of the
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communities we grew up knowing or maybe our ancestors knowing your grandparents, part of your
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grandparents communities were communities we were studying at McAllister or where you would study
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in college. And while I found that really exciting, I also saw this aspect of a lot of
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these tribes being exoticized. And in a way I was like, Hey, but that's kind of where I'm
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coming from. I'm and so my culture is being exoticized in a way. So I think the first level of
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going into business was in a way to collapse that exoticism and say, can I study something that all
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of us are in or all of us understand or all of us can like put our heads in and study and not of
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this like, oh, this is this is a far off tribal culture. And the second to be very honest was
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coming from India, parents have sent me abroad. I knew that at that time anthropology had very
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few avenues, you would either go into academia, you would go do your PhD, you would go do development,
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you would go and work in a development sector. And financially that didn't, while it sounded
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really, sounded really exciting, I had to be practical as well. So I kind of just said, Okay,
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I'm going to see if this works. And at that time, there were very few business anthropologists
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just to see if it works. So far it has, but yeah, that's kind of the pathway I went.
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And how would you say was different when you did digital anthropology? Because I think that
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also is super interesting as a switch. And then I'm sure it led into, okay, this makes sense to
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apply to brands, businesses and that context. Yeah, so I actually so after I did my undergrad,
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I came back to India. And I first worked in management consulting, where I tried to see,
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okay, can we use anthropological practices in places where structures are very much set in
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stone. It was probably the hardest two years of my corporate of just the working world, because
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they have such rigid structures exactly. And then I switched to the agency world where there was a
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lot more fluidity, a lot more cultural insights. But as we were, as I was working there, I realized
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the digital world was booming. And as an anthropologist, we've been taught how to study
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a physical culture. We didn't really know how to study a digital culture. And that led me to UCL.
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And at that time, it was the only place that was offering that digital anthropology. And what I
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loved about it, the essence of digital anthropology is basically saying, the digital is a culture
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in and of itself. So the same way that we study the physical as a culture with the same rigor,
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with the same academic lens, with different frameworks, we need to apply that to the digital
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world. So both we can study them separately, but we also have to study the confluence and what is
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our as humans, our relationship with with it. And especially now where we definitely spend a lot
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more time online than the physical world. And like, all those things, I think interchanging,
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which makes me like ask the next question about identity and you spoke about, I think, a lot
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of me's and I read something which was like the multitude of self now, which at that point,
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I'm sure was we're trying to understand internet culture, we're trying to understand. But now
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that it's all the same, and I feel even more so, like you can express so much more. And I think
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everyone has four or five versions of themselves. Like, one, would you think of that? Would you make
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of that? And then how does it actually impact societal changes, especially when it comes to
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work or it comes like we were speaking when it comes to work or it comes to how you just, you
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know, present yourself in in keeping in mind all the forces at play. So I think one of the big
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changes I've seen is when I first started studying the virtual world or the digital world, what we
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everyone would call it was if the world that we're living in right now, the physical world is role,
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and the virtual world was unroll. And that dichotomy was really interesting. And if you look at it now,
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what five, six years later, that's not the case. That's not the case. No one says that's not the
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role world, because people feel that's probably even more role in a way. And I think that juxtaposition
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or that change has shown us how as people, we've allowed ourselves or to live in multiple spaces.
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So right now, the focus is on the digital and virtual. I would hedge my bets. 10 years down the
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line, there might be a different world that has equal gravitas or equal importance in our lives.
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And going to the question of multi identities, what these two worlds have helped us do is express
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ourselves in multiple ways or play around with our multi or different parts of us in different ways.
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Because the digital world has allowed us to connect with people it has allowed us to
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also assume identities that may not entirely be ours. But you we've got we've been able to tease
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our identities out see what works see what doesn't work. Sometimes when it doesn't work,
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change your identity and start something new. So I think that's been really interesting to observe.
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Yeah. And like, how do you think it impacts a work context like the rigidity you spoke about
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earlier, which does exist. I would argue it's not just consulting, I think across all,
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especially more with corporate. So how do you think that that, you know, becomes especially
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for younger people becomes something that they should consider, where you're supposed to,
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while you're said you bring your whole self to work. But what does that even mean? Yeah, today,
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you know, when is that accepted? And so you know, the concept of the whole self I find fascinating
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because so I believe in this idea of, or at least I believe we're moving away from linearity.
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So we as people are more focused on lateral lateral growth. And which what that means is that we can
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have multiple identities, multiple spaces. I am not just an anthropologist. That's not just my
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identity. I have multiple other aspects. And now people are picking and choosing what they want
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to bring to work. So when that concept of bring your bring your whole self to work in the beginning
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was I think quite fascinating. And everyone was like, I want to show you everything of who I am.
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But now people are realizing that because work is not the end all be all, I don't have to bring
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all of these aspects to work. I have another space where I can play around with a different
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identity. So this idea that we are no longer linear cells, that we don't have to go from
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A to B to C. But we're kind of like spreading ourselves wider. I think that has been a very
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interesting change. And that's really impacted how people even see work. Yeah, or even if you were
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building a company or like in terms of organization structure, because when you have hierarchies,
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it's also assumed roles. And it's also nothing that that isn't confluence with identity. But I
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think do you see that as a structure also changing a lot? Yes and no. So I believe, I think hierarchies
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are very much part of culture, part of our lives. I think if we look back into history, there's always
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some form of hierarchy, whether it's through religion, whether it's even through tribal,
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there's always someone or some people who had the power. And that tends to be how things need to run.
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What I think the change is, there might be more distributed hierarchy. So maybe not just one
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person at the top. And maybe that one person at the top may not be asking for very normative
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standards, the standards of which the work in and of itself is changing. And so there,
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the hierarchy, well, let me rephrase that. While the hierarchy is still there,
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what the leaders are asking for or what the leaders want will shift.
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Also like when you spoke about multiple me in your podcast, early I think resonated with both of us.
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Because like while we do have what we do at work and we're passionate about it, like even for
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example, doing this podcast, like we wouldn't be able to put this aspect of ourselves in that.
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But it just made me think more about like traditional work environments in India also.
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There are so many family businesses, for example. Now, if you think of multiple me and bringing your
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whole aspect to work like in a family business, how do you like navigate that? Because there's
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familial obligations, there's work obligations. And then there might be so many different passions
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you have of yourself and which you might want to explore or different communities you would want
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to explore. So is that something like you've thought about at all? I think yes. And I think
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that's a great question. And I think this idea of multiple me, I have to caveat by saying it.
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I think it's a very privileged lens. So I think people who have a lot of agency and choice right
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now are able to play around with their different identities, are able to take like for example,
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I've taken a step back from doing a nine to five and I consult now so I can focus on the other
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aspects that give me joy or give me happiness or give me energy. But that is very much a privileged
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lens that has enabled me to do that. I think when from a family, when there are family businesses,
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the structures are so rigid, exactly. And it's passed down from generation to generation to
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break that schema takes a lot. So what you might see is people not breaking the schema when they're
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at work, but finding places outside of work where they try to do something different. But at work,
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they might seem like themselves or like what the family requires of them. Also like personally,
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I work at an agency right now and we had coming out of COVID, we had like a flexible work environment
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where we used to go to work three, this whole concept, right? Three days at work, two days at home. And
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that honestly, let me explore this multiple me aspect much more was I was able to dabble in a lot
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more things. But now we are coming back to all five days working from office. And like the way
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the leadership presented it is like, okay, we need to embrace whatever you'll want to do at work,
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we need to make more work more fun. We need if you want to go and play table tennis, please play
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table tennis. Like, you know, designate that time for yourself. Yeah, do you see more like
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organizations or businesses trying to like seeing this seeing that people having different side
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hustles or different passions, trying to incorporate some of that into their businesses right now to
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be able to make people more comfortable coming back to work or just being at work completely?
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Or do you think that's not possible at all? I think it's definitely possible. I am not a fan of
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five days a week. But I think the point that you're bringing up is really important because
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and I think I might have spoken about this before, but what I think companies are doing right now
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is trying to build a culture of acceptance. What I see the shift that's required is a culture of
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excellence. And what that means is a culture of acceptance is saying, and going back to the
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point of hierarchies is saying that, okay, this is the organization, this is the structure. We
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understand you are different. We understand you have different needs come come into our space,
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but our very clear boundaries and we will play around with it. We will give you that table tennis
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thing so you can feel like play is very important aspect of your life. You can play table tennis,
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not knocking your agency. I don't know, please knock ahead.
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But the switch is I think when you move to a culture of excellence. So when the company
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or the leaders say, I actually want people who are different. So I'm not rather than
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getting my structure, having structures and getting them to be here, I'm going to change
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my structures around them. So and it moves to a larger conversation of non normative ways of working.
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So for example, and I think this this example, I think helps understand a lot when you change
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the structures, for example, someone is who has a learning disability. If you change the structures
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to say it rather than I want you to fit into my work, but I'm going to hero you, I'm going to see
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how what working system makes it best for you, because I want to get the best out of you and I
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want you to be the best. So when you switch the structure, you're actually creating a culture
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of excellence. So you're not asking them to fully adapt to you. But you're saying where can we meet
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in the middle and actually meet them more on their end. Yeah, but I think that there's a tension
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there, which I delete, this should be the case. But if you take specifically India, if you take the
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US now, there's a lot of pushback on the AI, there's a lot of pushback on after COVID, it's a norm
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to be in office five days a week, because ultimately, we're not going to have this space to create for
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you for not making money. Similarly, here every week, there's some CEO who will say you need to
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work 80 hours a week, 90 hours, 100 hours, whatever. So I feel like both of those things are happening
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in parallel, one where businesses are realizing that he especially younger people coming into the
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workforce, they probably won't come to the workforce, or they won't be interested because
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they have five other things and five other avenues with which they can make money, or then you have
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the serious businesses, so to speak, who are like, we don't have the space for this, it's like
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bottom line first. So the era of the AI, the era of all of those things are slowly getting over
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because we need to shift back. So how do you see that? Do you feel like it's going to be this tension
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where both happen in parallel or there will be some confluence where there's never going to be
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one ideal way of working, but I do see both of these actually increasing more and more and more.
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I agree with you, I think it's both happening and it's kind of like this both parallel worlds
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that are happening. And I think what we're in the place in India with this whole 19 hour work week,
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if someone says no to it, there are 1000 people who will say yes to it. So it won't change the
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structure. And again, like going back to the idea of privilege, I think the ones who are able to say
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no to it have the choice, have maybe are working in less traditional structures already.
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But the people who can't say no to it have families, have responsibilities, have
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social mobility is important for them. They have to provide for families, they have to do a lot
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more. So those traditional structures, I think will last. And I think what that tension you're
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bringing up might create a very polarizing culture where there's on one hand people talking about
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my identity. This is what I want. This is how I experience the world. I don't need to work so
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much. I only go to work twice a week, etc. And then you have these people who are saying,
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I grind. I'm at work on Saturday. I'm at work on Sunday. And what I think will happen is conflict
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between the two because you won't be able to understand each other's perspectives or lives
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anymore. And there again, we'll create hierarchy. And it'd be interesting to see really how that
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pans out. I think specifically for the younger generation because there you have the flexibility
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of choosing. I think with maybe not us, but people a little bit older, especially in India,
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there is a set way and there are a lot more like life constraints that you have to work with. Whereas
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now it's possible for you to say, this is my priority. And here, you know what, I can actually
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make some more money of whether it's being a whatever it might be, but I have that option
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and the availability. So will you really like create that space for you or will you adopt to a
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space that's already there? I think it'd be super interesting in maybe 10 years to do a check-in
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and see how both like play out because I think in the US, there's a lot of that happening with.
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Sorry, just on that, one of the things that I would love to add is I think
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for the work structure to change, how we look at the world needs to change. I'm going back to the
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conversation that I was saying about linearity. So we've been taught and not only in India,
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everywhere of the world, you get a good education, you get a good job, you get a vehicle, you get
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married, you have kids, you get a house and so on. I mean, some might get the house before
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whatever, but there's a linearity to life. So everyone has this milestone. If these milestones
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are still very much part of our culture, the work culture won't change because people are
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always looking for the next. If these milestones become less valued, so where you say marriage
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is not my end all, kids may not be my end all, owning a house may not be my end all, and we're
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seeing a lot of the younger generation feel that way. That helps them look at work in a very different
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way and that will cause the change. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that for sure, very
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visibly, you see, it's like the meme, right? Like my parents at 30 with the house and then me at 30
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with like ice latte. It's like, it's fully the vibe. I think a little bit to shift gears into
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when you work with brands and businesses, I think we can separate both one is brands and then
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businesses. How do you actually go about it? Because I work in the field and a lot of times
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when you do research or when you get like a consultant on board who's going to help you
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understand culture just headline wise, the very distinct ways the brand as well as the come
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like a consultancy would approach it. Sometimes it's answering and already agreed upon end state.
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We want this result and hence let's, you know, backtrack it or it's really immersing understanding
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which of course is a long process. There's no time frame, but it's a long process. You really
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have to spend time with the consumer or you know, whoever your target audience is. So how have you
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seen that, you know, evolve? I'm curious to know have what kinds of brands and businesses are actually
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asking and really putting in the effort to know their consumer better and to actually answer that
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I want to fit into their life and not the other way around. I think so brands that are have either
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lost a lot of market share or that were doing really good. But now the trend is fully shifted.
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For example, one of the brands that I was working on was a whiskey brand and they saw this whole
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trend to gin and they were like, how do we make whiskey more relevant? And we they realized that
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we can't just create another product and sell it because people have lost the affinity to whiskey.
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Women weren't drinking whiskey because it isn't this is what we found in the research, but women
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weren't drinking whiskey because it seemed like a very manly drink the color the glass the how it
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was depicted in popular culture. So with projects like that where there is no answer, but they want
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to do something different. The scope is amazing. You can go deep you you actually for those kind
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of projects you don't go brand first very rarely in the research. Like, do you start off by talking
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whiskey? You start off we started off by studying their behavior to experimentation to exploring
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lives because that we saw was a way in for people to maybe experiment with a new type of whiskey and
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therefore what would that whiskey be? But you get a lot of the brands which have like you said have
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said this is my this is what we need to get to. And what what I say a lot what I saw a lot of the
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times was with those brands, the insight that you would get, you might be really happy with the
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insight but it doesn't translate into action or that insight stays on PowerPoint page number 80
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and it's a good to have and it's just like a picture of all these different faces saying we
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spoke to 50 people and they said this and the business doesn't really care about it. What I've
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learned what you can do there and how anthropology works there where research is minimal, you help
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them reframe their brand problem from a cultural perspective. You help them look at it. So they
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say I want to get to X but you help them look at it or you direct them into a different way of
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thinking show multi perspectives of this is what the world what's happening in the world and help
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direct it that way. And I think anthropology helps in both spaces in very distinct ways. One is about
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opening up a way of thinking and one is about role getting to a deep understanding of human behavior
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what culture wants through research and then opening up possibilities. Just like when you
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approach it though like how do you of course like if it's a whiskey brand I'm assuming it's a bit more
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premium and then you're very clear on the kind of person you're talking to when it's easier to
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decipher. Again I'm curious to know have you like have you been able to crack if there's a brand that's
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maybe mass or even lower than mass where you really have to know all of the nuances in culture
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not broad level what works but what's relevant what's what people are going to gravitate towards
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and again is it derived from more observing internet culture and like what's what people are
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observing liking or is it spending time with people in different places age groups blah blah
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or is it both like how do you actually approach those kind of problems because I think with
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luxury all with I would say premium there is a way there is you would know it's taste dependent
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and you just know it but with this I'm finding it harder and harder or you're someone who just
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connects and I think that there's sometimes a gap because a lot of people working with brands
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do come from a bit of a privileged lens and then that's where there's a bit of a dissonance and
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they think that we like it sitting in our office in Bandra but people are not. Yeah I think that's
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a great question and I think the first and what I always advocate for is to when you start a project
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to do an auto ethnography and what that means is so ethnography in anthropology that's the
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research method we use to study people you do it on yourself first as the researcher or the strategist
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to understand your biases because like you said privilege is a huge bias so you will never be rid
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of our biases but if you're aware of it before you go into doing the research it really helps
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you check yourself to say okay I am assuming they are thinking this but why it's because of my own
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experiences but once you start to like clearly understand your where you're coming from you're
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able to walk in their shoes a lot more and the thing about people whether mass whether premium
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they love to tell you their stories and as anthropologists what you have to be good at
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is just listen you don't and I think where the big change of what market research is versus
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like an anthropological research is you don't really direct the the conversation you direct it
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in a way of your guiding your partnering with them but you're never leading the conversation so
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you're listening to what their world is like you're actually walking in their shoes they might take
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you on a walk they might take you into their house they might they might like for example
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talking about whiskey some of the most interesting insights were when I went to Ludhiana and it was
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a bunch of men and like I'm obviously I stand out very differently in a place like Ludhiana
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but to hear how they talk about it but again if I was coming just from my privileged background
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and not maybe you would even judge people for like for example they were talking about whiskey
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with so much love it was amazing to see and at one point they said if we're talking about whiskey
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why is there no whiskey on the table with us because that's how we show love show love but that was
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an insight in and of itself because we don't think about it that way but that's how they do and that
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just like just going back to just observing them and just being with them and there's an acceptance
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that we are different but we're here to be together for this hour for this minute for whatever it is
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and we'll be connected and I think when you give people the time to talk and when you show that you
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actively want to hear people are open people are they let go of what they think they you want to hear
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exactly and they tell you start to tell you their story and then to add on that so one is to do that
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kind of research but I think on top of that to understand especially in spaces that you we I may
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not have knowledge or you may not have knowledge is to do semiotics understanding how has the world
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evolved so how has the world evolved from 100 years ago 50 years ago what were the residual
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codes what are the emerging codes and we can see a lot of this through pop culture because pop
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culture shows us shows us how and taking alcohol as an example we've seen the evolution of how
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alcohol has been portrayed in in the media and that gives us a clear signal of what's happening
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in in India or happening across cultures yeah this just reminded me actually something that you had
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said at your TED talk which was the difference in how we present ourselves as well so I might tell
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you I'm super healthy and I'm very active and and I really want like you know these are the
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things that I want to do but you'll come to my house and then you'll see all these snacks and
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you'll see but that's not for me and then you'll ask me but did you eat and I'll be like I had one
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or two so the dissonance between who you want to be projected as or seen as versus what you
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actually do because that's very important if I'm doing a survey and it's like yeah everyone's
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saying they want to be healthy or they're healthy but then their patterns are completely different
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so I think even I think there was a report that said that when you're anonymously filling firms
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you're a lot truer yeah because you you know there's no again like conflict but sometimes when
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you're asked and you're not comfortable you will blatantly lie because you don't want to seem as
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someone or I can't be seen as someone who doesn't do that because that's in conflict with who I think
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I am yeah so again that would be interesting to know how do you do you keep in mind the biases
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or do you just observe in their most natural environment like how do you so I think so the
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the the example you gave honestly that when I was exploring that is one of my favorite examples
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to talk about because it shows the difference it shows like I walked into his house and he was
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talking about how healthy he was went into his kitchen and there was like hundred potatoes being
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deep fried but but he said it was because he had a party and he said how can I how can I show diet
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food at a party and that gave a different insight of how in India status food is rich and like
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filled with ghee filled with butter and so health is incongruent in that area but I think
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when people talk like this or what they say and what they do is different it shows us that we are
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we have many contradictions between within us we are contradictory and it goes back to that idea
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of multiple means the multiple selves are not always yeah we are not always happy not always
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together we have contradictions you might have one aspect of yourself that feels one way and the
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other aspect that actually is a bit in conflict of this other avenue and so I don't I don't see it
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as people lying but I see it as people trying to show one aspect of themselves and we focus on
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okay why are they trying to bring that aspect of themselves to this table right now what is it about
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the setting what is it that they're trying to show and I think when you delay delay delayer you get
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to that emotional human motivation and that's your insight and that's honestly beautiful to find it
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yeah so like talking about like how anthropological research like ethnographies and all work like
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I feel hearing about it makes it feel like the ideal choice like you're understanding the why
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behind it so I work in a PR agency and right now my clients are mostly pharmaceuticals one of my
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clients is like working in the diabetes space and one thing we wanted to do was understand why
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people with diabetes right now are not very open to using technology which is the CGM which
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everyone must have seen on that like people's arms more mostly people like who are fitness freaks or
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like what really want to think about how much they're putting in their body they are more open to
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using it than people with diabetes so this whole conversation happened at work and like we were
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thinking okay how would we approach it everyone out of five people four people's answers so
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chalo let's do one survey so like when you think about like oh doing a survey we had like co-hand
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mentioned we had spoken to an anthropologist before so I just mentioned like okay there might be a
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different way to like find these insights but then the answer I got back was scalability and price
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so that's a dilemma that comes across for businesses or like brands or companies that they might want
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to get these insights but getting that scalability aspect of like oh I spoke to 400 people like you
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said on that PowerPoint presentation or like from a price perspective or a time perspective so like in
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your work how do you like approach that or how do you showcase to businesses that yes this is an option
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but this is why you might get like better more quality insights so I one of the things I see and I
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especially when you're doing a survey is when you ask someone a why you're not going to get the answer
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and it's always like multiple choice like you're already giving them options what if they had a other
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yeah you're leading them into a specific answer that you want and you're asking them because
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the first why is never the role why and in a survey you're only going to get the first why or the
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why that you have led them into the fifth why might be the role why but anthropological research
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or just any ethnography or work in that space helps you get to that why it helps you situate the person
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in the context of their lives so you start to see who they are and why they're doing what they're
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doing and then it gives you that deeper motivation yes it's not scalable this kind of research is
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never meant to be scalable you can't do in-depth research with 100 200 people what you can do
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is use large data sets to get patterns of behavior so we you use big data get patterns of behavior
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identified maybe the segment that is most of most interest that the segment that has we have a lot
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of questions for or different segments that we want to explore find people within those segments
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and there it's it's not about quantity it's about quality it's about getting a deep insight so you
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don't need to speak to those hundred people you need to speak to maybe eight to sixteen to sometimes
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four and it's really spending time with them but I think the what you're talking about the scalability
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and the fear is real but I you have to manage the data with the quality the qualitative and the
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quantitative if you can bring both together brands are more likely willing to buy in because you're
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going to show them I can skate here are the insights that I've got from from these participants
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and now through data sets through let's say things like you gov we're going to scale it up and we'll
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get the large answers so you can work in confluence in conjunction yeah very much so and it should it
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should work in conjunction what has happened is people see it as an either or yes it doesn't need
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to be an either or they you just need to invest a little more time into the qualitative data aspect
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companies now are willing to do that they're not willing to do six months or anything and that's fine
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but in business anthropology it's we've switched it so that you don't do really long research
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because you can't we understand that you're not no brand is going to say here take one year one year
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two years I mean that would be the dream but no one's going to do that we've built modules or
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models where it's done in a much shorter time you but you have to give a month you have to give six
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weeks you have to give a few weeks to get some insights but because otherwise you're not also
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thinking about like business anthropology in general and just thinking about where India is at this
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point we think about India is both traditional and aspirational at the same time we have the
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government talking about make in India we have entrepreneurs like Nikhil Kama talking about
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like oh everything can be made in India a rise in homegrown brands but we also see a rise in
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people wanting to adapt or like take part in western culture like spend on well western culture
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so I'm sure like you've worked with so many brands like so there's a tension between the two ethos
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for people every day like do you see that how do you talk about it or how do you approach it when
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00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:24,880
you're advising a brand that do they lean more homegrown do they lean more like from a western
387
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:30,880
perspective or there is a healthy mix in the middle I think it depends on the sector it depends on
388
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:41,040
the segmentation of the audience but on a large scale there is this resurgence of homegrown there
389
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:48,960
is this resurgence of we want to take what has been taken from us and make it our own again in this
390
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,600
like we see it in the space of yoga we see in the space of Haldid we see it in all of those spaces
391
00:38:53,600 --> 00:39:01,120
where it's a we're reclaiming it and saying this is ours I think the the the aspirations of the west
392
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:07,520
or the may never in our lifetime may never go away because of the colonial not hang up but
393
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:15,040
because of colonization and that has been so ingrained in us that the the western ideal has
394
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:22,160
become the has become the ideal for most you are seeing small behaviors of like I said reclaiming
395
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:31,120
it and so right now it's a very interesting there there's conflict I think where brands don't know
396
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:37,680
which which way to play which way to play which one which one will give them more a bigger bite
397
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:46,720
of the pie exactly yeah and it's my my wish or what I think is going to happen across the world
398
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:52,640
people are noticing us and therefore that helps people with in in the country say I reclaim my
399
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:58,400
identity I reclaim my Indianness so I think that's definitely happening but there will always be
400
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:04,320
there's this there's this thing called ethnoscapes which is we are now whether you we want to or not
401
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:10,320
we are multicultural so there's the global there's the local there's the local we will always be
402
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:16,400
connected to different cultures what we need to do is learn how to celebrate our own while
403
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,960
understanding and borrowing from others rather than celebrating the others and maybe just putting
404
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:26,640
a little of ours which I feel like is completely fine and it's it's good to have that balance like
405
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:32,320
I think it just comes down to how are you investing more to be a part of my life like
406
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:38,640
in a very simple way for example Nike is doing so much now I feel here on running
407
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:44,160
where they have their own club and like you know that I thought that it's just something that they're
408
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:49,120
doing namesake but they are showing up and they're they're becoming part of my life and they're
409
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,680
making me excited to do things and I feel it's as simple as that like sure there can be different
410
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:59,280
trends and that's a choice you make as a consumer that I want to only buy homegrown brands but then
411
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:04,560
once you've made the choice I think it's onus on the brand of how do I keep turning up or how do I
412
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:10,480
you know continue that relationship with you so I feel like that tension is always going to be there
413
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:16,960
I think for brands is just to keep this in mind and I feel not unfortunately but I think a lot
414
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:22,560
of the global brands do do that better I think there is attempt now with a lot like a maybe
415
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:28,800
maybe in a leisure bliss club you know does well and they really double down but I think there's two
416
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:36,400
shorter time maybe like 20 30 years down if they're still relevant then sure yeah I think a good
417
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:43,760
example we've seen in the recent past is makeup in India where it's being made for brown skin
418
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:48,480
like first time because I think that maybe when we were growing up and people were wearing makeup
419
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:55,840
they were just everything was not was nothing was for our skin now that it's it's building it's not
420
00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:00,320
only building for Indians are making it a homegrown brand but like you're saying it's
421
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,800
building for the Indian body it's building for the Indian value systems it's building for the Indian
422
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:11,280
mindset the Indian ethics that builds a more enduring brand today because then you see that
423
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:17,920
hey this brand really gets me it gets who I am or who I want to be and it's catering to that and
424
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:25,280
therefore I will take this brand with me as I as I evolve through time yeah I think one thing that
425
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:32,000
really wanted to talk to you about was like the role of of women so just let me contextualize it like
426
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:39,280
one is that since we've got a lot more data women in rural you know places don't have to spend time
427
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:44,480
washing don't have to spend time you know like electricity is fear so they just have more time
428
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:51,280
more agency sure they're slowly getting financially better but recently I read this whole thing where
429
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:56,160
it's at that the amount of bank accounts that women are opening is more enrollment in school is more
430
00:42:56,160 --> 00:43:01,520
so there's just generally more agency but again tension of caregiving responsibilities like my
431
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:07,840
time is still going to go there but now I want to express and like something as not small but
432
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:14,560
significant that I have internet I can just create my content and then go viral out of nowhere and
433
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:20,240
and that's it and that's my business like the so so beautiful so lovely like that lady right and
434
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:25,440
there you see a lot of women and entrepreneurs now coming into the scene so how do you you know
435
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:32,240
because I feel like the structures are changing like globally as well there was the CEO of a bank
436
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:38,000
like yesterday who spoke about the same thing that on a financial level a lot more women are you
437
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:43,680
know just getting more literal literate the share that we will hold is going to increase
438
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:50,000
so agency to express therefore will increase a lot more and so what how do you see that balance
439
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,640
with the fact that I'm still going to have this unpaid care responsibility I'm still going to
440
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:59,920
have these things and how does that structure change how does it impact work as well because
441
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:05,120
the policies haven't really changed much yeah so I still have that reality of I wanted all of these
442
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:10,160
things but then I'm stuck because you know it's not conducive or it's not conducive a space for me
443
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:16,880
so how do you think that one like employees can you know make it better and how do you think it's
444
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:21,040
going to change for women like are they going to just be like why do I need to do these 10 things
445
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:32,400
I think well so this this idea of the dual roles is very much has been there for ages for women it's
446
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:39,680
the unpaid the unpaid labor let's say the not only taking care of the kids but just the home
447
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:45,120
taking care of the home even stuff like the veggies like it's there's a lot of physical and emotional
448
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:50,960
labor that takes place that's not accounted for and then they've been they're now in the workforce
449
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:59,360
where they have to do as much as as the men the men do I don't right now I think some companies
450
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:08,240
make allowances for it but on on the whole it's that idea of celebrating the superwoman and it's
451
00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:15,680
it's in a way basically saying to these women you are superwoman therefore you can and must do the
452
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,280
two roles again we're not going to change the structure for you we're just going to celebrate
453
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:25,920
the fact that you can and you can do it all and that is such a burden for any person to take on
454
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:32,160
because then you you have to you become the leader in this or you become you can't say no
455
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:39,280
because you want to you feel that you have a duty to two roles suddenly and now we're adding these
456
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:45,360
multiple me aspects and we're saying hey women or hey people you can now express your identity in
457
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:51,200
many ways and they're like how many hands do I have to to juggle all of these so I actually
458
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:56,160
don't even have an answer for how it's gonna it's gonna evolve I think we have to just be very
459
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:03,040
conscious very conscious of the changes that will that will be required in family structures
460
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:13,440
or of what of what's being asked for in with women with in the family roles what agency they have
461
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:22,000
and conversations that happen in the house that gives women the ability to say no or gives women
462
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:28,400
give women the ability to say I need help with this I think we're seeing changes happen but
463
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,880
I actually don't even have an answer for how it's gonna evolve it's just be like super interesting
464
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:37,680
because again I think there'll be some pushback and then it's again who is controlled like I was
465
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:43,440
thinking right now with older people like how would all of this when someone comes in saying I have
466
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:49,760
multiple me's like how do they react when someone's 60 70 not to generalize yeah there are a lot of
467
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:56,000
amazing people who are super open and adapting maybe better than us but in general of you know hey
468
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:00,400
like I don't know what you're talking about you come here you give you like do your job and you
469
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:04,880
go back like why are you why are you making this stressful so I feel it'd be interesting because I
470
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:11,040
think a lot of that influence comes stopped down yeah maybe that structure changes where it's you
471
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:15,760
know there is no structure there is like hey this is the problem we're coming together to solve
472
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:22,160
and and it doesn't matter then what where how we'll make it the best environment for you like to me
473
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:28,720
that's the ideal case yeah but it'd be interesting to see how that sort of changes in I think that's
474
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:33,600
a really important point that you brought up because like the top down on bottom up structure
475
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:41,840
what is happening right now is us or people like who are maybe who are not that old are expecting
476
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:47,280
the older generation to change to get it how will they get it if they haven't had the same
477
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:53,600
lived experiences that we do so the expectations we have of them also need to change yeah and
478
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:58,560
because what happens and I think this is a huge trend that's happening in the world this polarization
479
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:03,520
we're not we're talking at each other but we're not talking with and we're not building and
480
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:08,800
creating together so for the older generation to get where we're coming from and for us to also
481
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:15,600
get where they're coming from it has to be a fluid conversation it has to be a sharing of ideas a
482
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:24,000
sharing of experiences not just one way yeah also just talking about women in general the internet
483
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:30,080
since you're a digital anthropologist has empowered women in many ways like she was also
484
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:36,000
mentioning they're like a burst of female influencers from all sex of life and they are
485
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:42,720
really having conversations online and the gender dynamics on the internet I find are very different
486
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:50,720
from gender dynamics I feel maybe in real life and also just it's a open question it's not really
487
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:55,920
related to business or any it's like consumer behavior overall but like women are putting
488
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:01,600
themselves more out there I feel online yeah but and they're empowered to do so maybe there's a
489
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:06,720
little conflict of doing the same thing in traditional real life and also it's like
490
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:12,400
getting corresponded with like men being like commenting on whatever these women are doing
491
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:16,800
whether they're selling a product or just putting a picture but just the whole aspect of gender
492
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,680
dynamics on the internet versus real life is something that I have been thinking about
493
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,920
and thought like if you have any interesting insight that you have found while doing your
494
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:31,600
research I think to add like it's not even women I think LGBTQ that community like the community in
495
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:36,240
general think that's the biggest place where you there is a different like I firstly feel it's the
496
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:41,040
same like I don't think there's internet life and like it's the words one like you can't differentiate
497
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:47,760
but like I feel for them specifically to express and to find avenues I think that's been like the
498
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:52,880
most powerful like I'd be interested to know what you make of that as well I think for women yes
499
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:57,440
like there are dynamics but I think for that community because it is very different especially
500
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:01,920
if you put an india context like it's not the same yeah and I think there there is like oh my
501
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:07,280
internet self versus my digital I mean my physical yeah so I think a few things in from what you're
502
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:15,360
saying one is people have the ability to make money while they're at home yeah which is huge
503
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:21,200
what it also does is speaking about the LGBTQ community or any communities when
504
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:26,880
people haven't been able to find their communities in the physical world the digital has done
505
00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:33,040
a great help in finding those communities finding a sense of self finding a sense of belonging
506
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:39,040
finding connection and what we're seeing now is those translate back into the into the physical
507
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:44,480
world and so it there there are they're the same but they're different but now they're working hand
508
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:53,200
in hand yes we do get the dynamics where a lot of comments and people the hate that people get online
509
00:50:54,160 --> 00:51:01,760
but it's what I see it as the hate is still there offline it's just a medium through which it's
510
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:09,520
being expressed now it's more visible but it's always been there it's it's become more permissible
511
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:15,520
because of freedom because of freedom of speech because of the medium because of how
512
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:22,880
how role models or leaders are acting now so that it's become more permissible but it's always been
513
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:29,120
there it's just we're just now seeing it way more yeah no that's really interesting and just from
514
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:35,680
the internet and like being on in the digital world you find yourself like being gravitated towards
515
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,920
certain communities so building your own community yeah like through this podcast we are trying to
516
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,680
build a community if you're writing a sub stack you're trying to build a community so how like
517
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:50,640
maybe businesses are really trying to tap into that community and have you seen like some examples
518
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:56,400
I guess of how they're trying to do that from an online perspective so one of the things that
519
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:02,240
is happening everywhere and all the time and I'm sure both of you have heard it is like businesses
520
00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:08,400
and brands saying we want that viral moment yes we want that viral reel right they want
521
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:14,720
behavior right now is all of us have like five seconds to spend you'll remember it and then
522
00:52:14,720 --> 00:52:20,480
we'll go on to the next thing so every brand is trying to fight for those five seconds or 20
523
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:27,440
seconds so everyone is trying to get this viral moment what's happening with that is it's not
524
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:36,800
enduring it's not like I don't remember last months viral reel or whatever and what's what
525
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:42,160
it's also impacting culture I was thinking about it from a music perspective right the music we've
526
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:48,880
I've grown up on my parents music the Beatles, Simon and Garfunkel all of that have stood the test
527
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:55,040
of time the music that's happening right now is all attention grabbing all attention grabbing all
528
00:52:55,040 --> 00:53:01,680
cater to have that 30 second reel exactly and that dance and while it's an in the moment
529
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:07,040
great feeling and it builds community it definitely builds community we're seeing
530
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:12,240
communities being built as a result of it I'm not entirely sure that that's enduring we're not
531
00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:17,440
going to remember that song that dance six months from now because there's so many viral moments
532
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:24,160
no I agree also too if you really look at it the truest of viral moments are just random they're
533
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:31,840
not engineered and here we have like businesses and like brands trying to engineer that the this is
534
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:36,560
what that lady who was showing that outfit and she was like lovely and this and that became a
535
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:41,200
whole thing that was just her being her yeah it was not some business telling her please do this and
536
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:48,000
like you never know what thousand people are going to gravitate towards yeah that's true yeah I think
537
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:57,840
that like a little bit of I know it's like tough to ask it but from just a future perspective or
538
00:53:57,840 --> 00:54:04,640
actually a good question is right now I feel between even if you take things like community
539
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:11,120
building or if you take things like internet culture it's it's it's decentralized in a certain way
540
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:19,840
so it flattens things out but I still feel like there's a there's a gap in terms of how consumers
541
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:26,160
absorb things so for example I might be you know consuming a lot of content that's specific to
542
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:31,840
writers in California and so that's my reference point and maybe so then I know a lot about the
543
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:38,160
internet as opposed to someone here might just have a basic understanding so how would a brand
544
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:45,840
of business be able to really know these kind of nuances when they're trying to connect with me as
545
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:52,480
opposed to let's say Simran on a topic that I am so you know but but broadly we're interested in but
546
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:58,320
I'm just like so specific about it and maybe she's not just because our influences are different so in
547
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:03,200
one way what I'm trying to say is definitely it's flattened out culture but in another way it's also
548
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:09,040
allowed for these rabbit holes to happen so how do you really you know think about both these things
549
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:15,360
so is it again just things that are happening like you go wide and you go deep yeah I think
550
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:20,800
that's what's happening and I think it's kind of awesome that you see like these rabbit holes
551
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:27,120
that people go through like people are finding the quirkiest the most interesting rabbit holes on
552
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:32,720
the internet that gives them deep culture yeah so culture is going really deep and you find that
553
00:55:32,720 --> 00:55:39,280
you're you're you're uncovering so much about this culture and therefore you're yourself and there are
554
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:46,720
there's big data that can help brands get through those out what's interesting though is the behaviors
555
00:55:46,720 --> 00:55:52,400
or the values are still similar so what you are interested in versus what you're interested in your
556
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:58,800
motivations might be different but the values the sense of needing to belong the sense of whatever
557
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:06,320
it is validation whatever those key behavioral buckets or umbrellas those are still the same
558
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:13,840
and so that's a what connects us as humans so you're able to start seeing the world in like
559
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:22,720
very like huge buckets of we need right now this like for example just the sense of being on social
560
00:56:22,720 --> 00:56:27,520
media right everyone talks about and I think one of the things that you were asking before was about
561
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:33,520
in authenticity right the social media breed like inauthentic we're showing one aspect of
562
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:38,960
ourselves we're engineering all of that and yes I agree with all of that but I think if you take a
563
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:46,480
step back what social media has enabled is an acceptance of the ego an acceptance of our
564
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:53,920
need for validation these are huge huge human behavioral needs that maybe have not had that
565
00:56:53,920 --> 00:57:00,640
had that much space before because you know being selfish was not accepted being like all about the
566
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:06,720
me was not accepted social media has and it's shown us that these are things that people want
567
00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:12,480
they want community they want validation and they're finding avenues to do that through their
568
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:18,080
deep communities but we're understanding a lot more and so I would say sometimes it makes you
569
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:23,680
inauthentic but it's also maybe making us more authentic exactly like what I've been
570
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:29,120
thinking about a lot which is just like I read this thing where it termed it as performative
571
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:36,080
authenticity so you have the need to be authentic and you want to be true to yourself but there is
572
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:44,080
this lens of am I doing this truly for me am I doing it to see same thing yeah as you ask me I
573
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:47,840
want to be healthy and then you come to my kitchen the same thing that I want to showcase
574
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:53,360
that I am ex-person but I have the need to be authentic and there's a little bit again of like
575
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:58,720
clashing against each other there are hence now there's a lot of you know I don't want to have
576
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:03,600
an Instagram aesthetic Instagram grid I don't want to have perfectly posted stories I will be
577
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:08,560
super random I'll post from my notes app like there's a lot of pushback being like I just
578
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:14,320
wanted to be as pure and as authentic but again are you doing that because you're seeing other
579
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:18,960
people you're all you're like hey and like now this is the way to be so I feel like it's really
580
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:23,840
interesting yeah and like what does that again do to your understanding of your identity because
581
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:29,120
you're spending so much time online life is online yeah I've been personally thinking about it a lot
582
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:36,080
like how much of it is performative how much of it is authentic like can all of it be performative
583
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:44,640
can all of it be authentic because is there ever a time where you are not because we are so influenced
584
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:49,680
by other people us sitting here today we're influenced by each other right like you're
585
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:54,960
seeing something that's making me think something or vice versa so we are always going to be learning
586
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:59,760
from others taking from others giving to others so I think there's always going to be an essence
587
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:04,560
of performity and there's always going to be an essence of authenticity and I don't I think the
588
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:09,520
question of who are you doing it for are you doing it for yourself are you doing it for others
589
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:16,320
that's also blurry yeah and I think we're also moving to the space of accepting that it's okay
590
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:22,320
if you're doing it doing it for others it's kind of like a where it's accepting if we're if we're
591
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:28,000
really evolving to the multiple me identities we have to accept those identities that maybe don't
592
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:33,520
sit really well with us right now that that identity that says I want to do something super
593
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:37,440
performative and I'm doing it just for you I don't really feel like I want to do it but I want to do
594
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:44,000
it for you if that's really how you feel then why not why not I don't know this is like a it's a
595
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:51,040
broader but yeah it's like it's even on a really random thought it was also about you have one part
596
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:55,520
where you said the superwoman identity for women and you feel like you have to do it but then there
597
00:59:55,520 --> 01:00:02,640
was like this again this like tech CEO tweeted it feet like woman CEO tweeted it being like
598
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:08,320
actually now when I she left her job and she was like I just want to take care of my kid I've
599
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:12,880
like worked and like that's what I want to do and she there was a lot of dissonance and how
600
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:17,360
people reacted on one side being like how could you do that or like you know you were doing so well
601
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:22,560
there were a lot of women who also were like wow like I'm so glad that you're brave and you know
602
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,800
that you're just like clear about this is what I want to do with life and then again with things
603
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:34,560
like that there's so much stigma of what if I don't want a career and I just want to have kids
604
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:39,600
and I want you know those or what if I never want to get mad it's things like that where people again
605
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:46,160
like the larger questions people again might inhibit themselves because of the pressure of
606
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:52,080
performing or the pressure of you know this is how it's going to be which is changing because
607
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:58,960
people are talking about it more but yeah it'd be curious I think that's um it's it's really
608
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:04,560
interesting because like women in the workforce or women specifically you know like now you're kind
609
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:09,600
of exactly saying you're judged if you say I don't want to work I want to be at home with my kids
610
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:14,720
because it's like is that all you want to do no no it's not all there's being at home with your
611
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:21,680
kids is is a lot is a full-time thing anyway and I think you know the viral community of
612
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:26,960
trad wives that there's there's a reason why it's taken over of course there's so much judgment
613
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:33,840
across it and yeah right because no because when there's this famous I don't want to call her
614
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:38,880
trad vibe but she started the movement over there and she had done one interview and she was talking
615
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:45,520
about like oh at the beginning of the 90s etc when the bubble burst and all women were basically
616
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:50,480
shoved into the workforce being like now this is from a more us context but I just wanted to bring
617
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:56,480
it up shoved into the workforce and they had to work to be able to like survive in this world now
618
01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:03,680
we have reached 2020 plus years after that where women have now like had or they have built a place
619
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:08,800
in society in the workforce yeah plus they have built a place at home and now now like you were
620
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:13,440
saying there's a freedom of choice like that time I was pushed in but now it should be my choice whether
621
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:19,600
I want to push out and if I want to stay at home and take my sheep and make the world and make the
622
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:25,360
clothes and go on take the cow and make the milk and make my food what's the problem and like I want
623
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:32,320
to embrace my more traditional feeling that I feel and if you want to work go work but like if I want
624
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:38,640
to do this let me do it but like there's this uproar between the like this more trad vibe movement
625
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:43,600
and the women at large being like oh you're taking us back so many years so many years also
626
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:49,680
40 years I think because there's so much it's interesting with men as well there's so much masculinity
627
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:55,040
context of like you have to be the alpha like there's a lot of resurgence of that like alpha male
628
01:02:55,040 --> 01:03:02,480
provider like with how many of our podcasters are out there and then there's also like oh but have men
629
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:08,560
become too feminine now have men become too like soft now so I feel like it's happening there as
630
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:15,040
well like men also face it but I need to be this person who is like if you're in you know like I
631
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:19,360
need to be this person who's providing and I have that pressure and for them to also be like you know
632
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:25,120
what maybe I don't want to do that and like I want to lead a slow life is also very daunting yeah
633
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:31,120
you know my sister like she's my younger sister and like the one thing she's always told me is
634
01:03:31,120 --> 01:03:36,880
like I'm doing this I'm doing work I'm like working all the time and like when I look at my system
635
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:41,120
like oh what do you want to do in life like two weeks ago she has told me I just want to relax
636
01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:49,120
I have been I'm born to relax so she has said that and I just joked and I was like who I find myself
637
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:54,240
like you're always saying like maybe making a small judgment being like babe come on yeah get to work
638
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:59,440
but like the I think coming to it is just like acceptance like okay this is what gives her happiness
639
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:05,760
in life that's still I feel I'm saying privilege in terms of you can yeah I'm saying more of like
640
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:13,200
expression of how masculine or feminine do I want to appear as is a pressure yeah of yeah I think
641
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:18,240
and I think this is a really important point about the masculine aspect because what we talk a lot
642
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:23,600
about women and giving them agency and especially in in our very like patriarchal society the men
643
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:29,040
aren't asked what they want they are told or they have been born knowing that they have to provide
644
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:34,560
so giving them like you know what we've talked about like the woman saying I want to take a step
645
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:40,400
back from work less judgment a man saying that will be riddled with so much judgment because then
646
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:44,880
it's who will provide who will do this like you are the man of the house what happens to your
647
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:50,240
masculinity and I think those are you're like just so bang on those are conversations we need to have
648
01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:58,320
as well because it's uplifting all genders everyone and really like giving everyone agency is giving
649
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:03,040
every exactly everyone yeah because I think it is super like there are there is a lot of like
650
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:07,920
there are a lot of women who are okay but then it's because the pressure is on them they don't
651
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:13,120
have to worry about it yeah I think it's interesting when you have to worry about it but you're still
652
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:18,240
thinking about this is more important to me so for example if a man's like I don't want to I don't
653
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:23,840
feel motivated and then still finding someone who accepts that or which I don't think we're there yet
654
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:31,200
because there's a lot of there it's as deep rooted but with the with the conversations that are
655
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:37,440
happening maybe in my pockets of that then I feel like it's slowly slowly slowly like changing
656
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:42,800
it'll be interesting again to do a check-in in like 10 20 years of how has that balance really
657
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:49,040
changed and it would be really cool yeah it's fascinating and it's I think I come from it from
658
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:58,960
a like a very unique perspective because my mum for a portion of our life as I think I was a teenager
659
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:04,640
onwards was the primary breadwinner so I've seen roles in very different ways but I've also seen
660
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:10,880
what that how that impacts masculinity and femininity ideals or how society looks at it or how the
661
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:18,080
grandparents look at it because of structures of society yeah so I think you're at that time when it
662
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:23,600
was happening I think I didn't know anyone else who had that kind of structure so it was just
663
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:28,320
it was jarring and it felt very not not jarring I shouldn't say jarring it was beautifully unique
664
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:34,880
yeah but it takes time to understand yourself exactly and now you're seeing a lot more of the
665
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:42,160
conversation between partners heteronormative yeah and non of just what roles do we want to do
666
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:47,280
and what roles do we want to play and what do you can you give and what can you give and I think
667
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:52,480
when you're entering a partnership maybe these are the kind of conversations to have to see how
668
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:59,360
do you envision your lives and together for me honestly my role models were my parents because
669
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:05,200
they gave because it was a different relationship because they're very different very liberal
670
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:10,720
they gave me the space and my brother the space to question to honestly to do anthropology like to
671
01:07:10,720 --> 01:07:16,960
do something to do something super different and that gave the the freedom of agency to question
672
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:20,960
to ask is this like you've lived your life this way but I don't know if I want to live my life
673
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:26,240
this way and I think having role models or having communities where the conversations are happening
674
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:34,800
and it's you're you're able to have those conversations without fear of judgment to say hey I think I
675
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:40,240
have a different way of living and I think with the younger generation they're seeing a lot of
676
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:46,640
that in their peers where those conversations are are really becoming part and parcel of their life
677
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:52,480
and I think slowly it's going to become significantly more mainstream because the kids talk to their
678
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:57,280
parents about it what we've seen the switch is before in the dynamics a lot of the parents are
679
01:07:57,280 --> 01:08:02,720
teaching the kids now because the world is changing so rapidly the kids are on their laptops or on the
680
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:07,680
digital world all the time they're actually showing their parents the changing world and so there is
681
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:13,520
this beautiful relationship of like the cyclical relationship that you see in family dynamics
682
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:19,280
which will ultimately change the structure in in and of itself yeah our podcast name is work in
683
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:25,600
progress we know anthropology as a subject is also discovering what's the work in progress and how it
684
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:32,320
moves forward so I'll ask from a business like from your work perspective how do you think your work
685
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:36,640
in general or the work you're doing is a work in progress and where do you see yourself going yeah
686
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:43,760
and also how I think in general like how are you a work in progress every day is a work in progress um I
687
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:54,800
see myself as constantly changing and constantly evolving so I think every and I generally like
688
01:08:55,440 --> 01:09:00,560
wholeheartedly believe that I will always be in a work in progress and I love that so because that
689
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:07,600
gives the space to always learn and grow from a business perspective the work in progress is to
690
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:14,400
how to help brands really bring about behavioral change not about just selling one more product
691
01:09:15,440 --> 01:09:20,320
I've done that it's been fun it's been great but how do we help brands really truly understand
692
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:25,440
culture and bring about step changes it doesn't have to be a huge change but small changes small
693
01:09:25,440 --> 01:09:32,640
meaningful changes in people's lives what would you one advice and like how do you stay of course
694
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:39,040
you have to be super online you've studied it but if someone like if I'm interested like how do I
695
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:43,760
what can I do how can I keep up like what do I read watch listen you can even send links but if
696
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:51,200
there's anything that's just been profoundly like hit this thing then you can share um yeah so um
697
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:56,720
actually there's so many books that I would recommend which I will give them from an anthropological
698
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:02,480
perspective the few that have really over the years been very impactful for me was um
699
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:10,240
a coming of age and second life which was basically um this book second life was this one of the
700
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:15,680
first virtual worlds ever and it was this anthropological study of it and this is when it was
701
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:21,840
role versus unroll world and it was a study of these behaviors and how people acted on um on
702
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:26,880
this virtual world and it's just fascinating because it's one of the first like four years into that
703
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:34,640
world um the second book that I really do love is addiction by design um which is a book uh this
704
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:43,760
anthropologist Natasha she studied the Vegas um the casinos and how everything has been created
705
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:51,280
to bring about a sense of addiction with within a person and I think that translates so much into
706
01:10:51,280 --> 01:10:56,960
the world that we that we live in right now everything has been in a way engineered and
707
01:10:56,960 --> 01:11:06,800
designed designed to spark something within us um third book is a as another book called sex at dawn
708
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:15,280
which is the evolution and showcasing how the concepts of relationships marriage um meeting
709
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:21,280
what are social constructs what have been part and parcel of our civilization so I like I like
710
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:26,800
this book because it shows the real evolution of an institution that people hold near and dear to
711
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:32,240
their hearts and see is sacrosan it shows the evolution of where did it really come from and
712
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:39,840
what is the value we put and there's so many yeah no that you can send us a link too but yeah yeah
713
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:45,040
thank you so much I'm so glad we actually found the time in person with you I was just thinking
714
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:49,440
about that it would have been a different energy online so thank you we're so grateful
715
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:54,720
and we're going to stay connected with you I feel like they still want to have so many more
716
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:58,640
conversations yeah we should have a part too like after we read these books I feel like we
717
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:04,240
have like different like concepts that I have really not thought about one more book the body
718
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:12,000
keeps the score if you I'm reading that I've read like I've almost it's a hard one yeah I know I've
719
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:16,880
picked it up and put it down so many times it's just talking about like how your body keeps trauma
720
01:12:16,880 --> 01:12:22,400
yeah yeah it's a lot it's a lot it is it makes you like I think open your eyes to things that you
721
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:27,200
never really considered before like okay this happened to me but yeah it stayed with me yeah
722
01:12:27,200 --> 01:12:33,200
yeah and that's why I'm a huge advocate for yoga yeah it really helps you understand your body and
723
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:58,720
yourself thank you so much this was a lot of fun thank you