Interoception for Parents: The Missing Link in Burnout and Overwhelm with Kelly Mahler

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I have with me today, I'm gonna call her the Queen of Institute Reception.
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Is it okay to say Kelly?
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We've got the lovely Kelly Mayler with us today, everybody.
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Kelly, welcome to the podcast.
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Thanks, Liz.
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It's really an honour to be here.
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I'm so delighted to have you here, Kelly.
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It's been one that I've just one, you're an OT, so having another chat with another OT is always great.
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Um, but this one for me as well is really important.
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Talking about something like interception, which I know, as I say, I've called you the queen of it, but I remember this maybe shows how old I am.
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I remember it coming up and suddenly there was we'd moved from in these seven senses to now eight.
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And it was a real kind of like whoa moment.
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I remember it really vividly in my practice about, and it was you seeing you talking about it and bringing it to the kind of the forefront for people, and it was really interesting to me at the time.
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And I suppose I'm really interested, Kelly.
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How did you get there?
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How did you get to talking about interreception?
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I don't know, actually, by pure luck, thankfully.
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No, I I mean it's kind of a long story, but I just like to keep it short, like I've always been like super interested in supporting like mental health, emotion regulation, sensory kinds of stuff with my clients, and always felt like I was missing something, but like really had no idea what it was until I read about this sense that you, you know, call interoception.
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And I read a paper by this brilliant neuroscientist named Dr.
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Bud Craig, and he was defining this brand new sense, and he called it interoception, the physiological condition of the body.
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And I was like, well, that's pretty fancy, but that sounds pretty important, especially when I was helping my clients try to regulate the physiological condition of their body, aka their stress response.
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And so um Dr.
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Craig got me fully hooked.
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Um, I started reading all that I could get my hands on about interoception, which wasn't much at the time.
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Um and I also started asking my clients lots of questions about their physiological condition of their body, which I'm sure we're gonna break down and talk about what does that actually mean.
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Yeah, we all.
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But yeah, and my my husband, he lovingly, I like to say lovingly, but he calls me the interviewer because I am such a curious person.
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So when I say I was asking my clients and their families lots of questions, like we were talking deeply about interoception and quickly realizing like this is such a big deal.
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Um, that so many of my clients were disconnected from their bodies.
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They were having a really hard time understanding what messages their body was sending them.
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So here I was trying to help them regulate their body when they didn't really know how their body was feeling to begin with.
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So I was missing a foundation.
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And that's when it all changed for me.
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Yeah.
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And were you aware at the time when you started to kind of find out about interception?
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Were you aware of other OTs using it and talking about it?
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I didn't know of anyone talking about it except for neuroscientists.
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Yeah.
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And so I was taking this um body of like science that's very technical, I have to say, even for someone who I love research, but it's very technical stuff.
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And I was like, how do I translate this over to like how it shows up in our daily life?
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Like, what does this mean from a practical standpoint?
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And that's really what I've dedicated my like last decade or so to is really helping take this very technical science-y stuff and you know, figuring it out how this shows up in lived experience.
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Yeah.
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Well, that probably leads me on then to say, and so ask you, Kelly's, what is interoception?
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Because then people have been thinking, well, they might kind of know.
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They might know about roughly the five senses that you get taught at school.
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Then they might have known maybe if they've got kids with sensory processing needs, they might have heard about the two extra ones that kind of go in there around a kind of vestibular proprioception, but they might be thinking, I have never heard of interoception.
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So tell us, Kelly, what is interoception?
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Yes, that is a fantastic question.
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So, as you have already said, it is our eighth sense, and its primary job is to help us know how our body is feeling or what is the condition of our body.
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And so um, we like your listeners, like they might be noticing certain body signals or sensations, like whatever you want to call them.
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And what I would like to say is that what you know signals you tend to notice in your body are going to be different than what I tend to notice in my body.
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I'm just gonna give some examples, but like if you've ever noticed, like maybe your heart racing or pounding, or your skin feeling sweaty, or your head pounding from a headache, or a sore throat, or tense muscles, or maybe a growling stomach, like there's just so many different bodily signals or sensations that we can feel.
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Like that's interception at work.
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Introsception helps us to feel these internal sensations because they provide us with really important clues about like what's happening inside our body.
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Like, what does our body need right now in this moment for regulation?
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Like, does my body need food?
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Does my body need sleep?
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Does my body need to take you know some kind of pain reliever?
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Um, but it also is so important for our what we call like the affective emotions.
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And all that means is like talking about it helps us to know like when we're excited or anxious or frustrated and helping us to like regulate those type of needs in our body as well.
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So um these body signals um are really important for us to be connected to, to pay attention to and to understand them and like what what they're trying to tell us about our body and ultimately like what our body needs.
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Some of them can be quite confusing, can't they?
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Because I know when I think about some emotions that you feel within, they can be really similar.
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So sometimes that the anxiety and the excitement one can really cross over, can't they?
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And then it's being able to pick up that nuance of the between what is that excitement that I'm feeling, or is that actually anxiety that I'm feeling?
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It's really easy to mix them up.
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Super easy to mix them up, yes.
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And we hear that from so many people.
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And I think just having that conversation alone right there, that this is messy stuff, that this is really hard is so important because I get clients referred to me all the time that have received accidental messages.
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No one intended to send this message, but they should they think that they should always know exactly what emotion they're experiencing in every minute of every day, or you know, exactly what zone they're in, or exactly where they're at on their stress thermometer.
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And I'm like, oh, like it's not like that.
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Like this is messy stuff.
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It's really, really tricky to figure this out.
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And I think those honest conversations are so reassuring to a lot of people.
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And like you say, it's just so different, you know, what I might experience to what you might experience.
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And what feels like anxiety for me would be really different for somebody else.
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So we often get into that mistake, don't we, of kind of going, well, anxiety feels like this.
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And it's actually, well, actually, they probably could feel that completely differently to you.
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And that would feel like a different emotion to you.
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That's exactly right.
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We talk about that a lot in interception work is that we we call it, we need the ditch the should feels.
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I mean it's like the way your body should feel when it's anxious, the way it should feel when it's sleepy or hungry, and we really need to shift because introsception science is really showing us that there is no single like footprint of an emotion.
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And what that means is like what you just said, like what anxiety feels like in your body is probably different than what my body feels like when I'm anxious, and what your listener's body feels like.
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And so, how do we shift to a place of curiosity and helping each person to discover their own sensation patterns, like what body signals mean anxiety for me?
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Yeah.
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And do you kind of think that came about for you?
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Because when I think about my background as an OT, it was very much in mental health, like you were talking about.
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I was in child and adolescent mental health for a long time.
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And I think our style is then, and when we work with those kind of children, is to be curious.
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A lot of the kind of standardized assessments that OTs might use, forget that with our clientele because they're just like, I'm not engaging in that.
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You have to find all other ways to find and find and see if you can do assessment rather than being down that standardized route.
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And I think we learn as OTs, I think, to be to be curious, to ask those questions, to go, but what does that feel like?
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And I'm, or I wonder what that's like, and tell me what that feels like.
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And I think that puts us in such a great position to do that piece of work.
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I couldn't agree more.
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And I hear from so many OTPs out there that like this introsception work is bringing them back to like what they fell in love with this profession.
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Because, you know, there is, I think we kind of went through this like whole medical model shift where like you're saying we need to use standardized assessments and we need to determine if how far you stray from the norm.
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Oh, that stuff is like thankfully getting thrown to the side.
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And it's like, let's figure out your own personal experience and how we can help you thrive um uniquely in this world.
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And I hear that from so many OTs are like, this is like what I've been waiting for to bring me back to like being an OT and the heart of OT.
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It just makes such a difference.
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Sometimes with OT, we find it quite difficult.
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I don't, and probably you don't, but some OTs will find it quite difficult to say what it is they do as an OT.
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And then they end up down a very medical model route because they want to kind of feel held by that and actually being able to say really confidently what you do as an OT.
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I think some OTs can struggle with, um, and then that's but they end up down that medical model route.
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Yeah, I mean, I think that sometimes we let outsiders dictate our identity as occupational therapists, and I think it's super common and fair.
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And I I just vulnerably will admit that I had a hard time explaining like what I did as an OT.
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Like when I graduated OT school and became an OT 24 years ago, I started working in the schools and and I inherited an entire caseload of handwriting goals.
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I had never even heard about handwriting in OT school.
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I'm like, what is this?
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Like, this is not how I'm going to provide meaning to someone's life, you know?
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So I had an identity crisis.
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And so I think that our field is so interesting right now and how it's evolving and we're getting back to those mental health routes, those curious roots, those individualized care routes.
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Yeah, it does make a big difference.
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It was really funny.
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I I've had to go back and I've had to write this one down, um, Kelly, because I remember this back in 2023 when you put this out as a quote, and I went back and found it.
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I've just trolled through your Instagram account to find it because it was so important.
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And it's something that when I do supervision with people, I share this with them because they'll often come and talk about emotions and the kids are struggling and whatever, and they're trying and they're trying to do these very kind of cognitive type strategies to managing behaviour, emotions, helping kids to recognise their emotions.
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And I kind of go, you got you, but you're missing something like you talked about earlier.
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There's a bit before that that we have to tap into first.
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And it was this bit here that you'd written trying to teach emotions before exploring body signals is like trying to read a book in the dark.
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You need light to grasp the words just as you would need body signals to comprehend emotions, and I love that.
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Wow, that's an oldie.
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I I love that I forgot how good that is.
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You need to bring it back, Kelly, because it's one that I use all the time.
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Great analogy.
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I think sometimes we get so stuck on developing new content, I forget about the oldies.
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Like that was a good one.
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Thank you.
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Yeah, I just think it's so great when it because it brings you back, doesn't it?
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And thinks, well, like when you're trying to do something before you've got something else in place, you need to turn the light on.
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Yes.
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If you're gonna read the book, you've got to turn the light on.
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And actually, if you're gonna think about emotions and behavior, you've got to look for interception.
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It's so important.
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Yeah, it definitely is a hundred percent.
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So I was kind of thinking, what's you know, we've I've got people listening today that will be parents, um, and a lot of the work I do is for parents, and uh what I often find is really interesting is I work with parents, and when we talk about sensory stuff, they think that's just for kids.
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They'll often think, Oh, if we're gonna do sensory stuff, that's what the kids need.
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And I do a lot of work with parents around yes, but what about your sensory needs?
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And I do a lot of work around burnout, and burnout's really, really important to me, having been through burnout myself.
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And I do a lot of kind of work around protection from burnout and knowing our sensory systems and and how our sensory systems are operating and what can protect us, what might tip us over.
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Um, and interoception is one of those.
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And I'm just I'm just curious because you talk a lot about burnout, particularly autistic burnout in relation to interoception.
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And I just wondered if you could talk a bit about that.
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Hmm.
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Oh my goodness, do you have seven hours?
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Yeah, no, come on, Kelly, you can get that into at least three minutes.
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You know, I think that that you know, exploration and understanding yourself is so vital.
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And honestly, um, I'm just gonna tell all of your listeners that like this is something that happened way too late in my life.
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So I'm really glad that, you know, you're encouraging, you know, parents to explore their sensory systems and what how to protect, you know, their energy levels and um what brings their body comfort and discomfort.
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And introsphen kind of I think is like, I don't even know what analogy to use right now.
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My brain is like not coming up with it, but like it's kind of like the it's like the middle ground.
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It's like if we are in touch with our body and are we're noticing at least a certain degree of how comfortable or uncomfortable our body is, like that ties to the sensory world.
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It helps us to like really concretely understand, like, oh, like when I am like in a loud, like loud environment with lots of background noise, that starts to create discomfort in my body.
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Or when um I put on my noise-canceling AirPods, that really shifts the way my body feels in those environments.
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And aka, I'm talking um about my personal experience right now, things that I am discovering about my body.
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Um, you know, but it it really has shifted things for me to like really start to like use my body as the compass of the sensory world around me and like really trying to understand, you know, what things promote comfort in my body, but also what things um are uncomfortable, so that I can kind of problem solve the best I can through that.
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Um, so that interception piece has been really key in exploring my sensory experiences and really protecting my energy levels as best I can as a parent and carer as well as a professional.
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Um, and you know, and we hear from so many people that have either experienced autistic burnout or maybe they're, you know, kind of entering into autistic burnout that this is not true for everyone, I just want to say, but for it can be common that that introsception piece is not always reliable.
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Um, and that stems from a lot of lived experience that many neurodivergent people face.
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Many times they are living in a world that is just so um like so insulting to their bodies.
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Their bodies are in this constant state of discomfort.
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They have to disconnect, they have to mask, they have to suppress all of that internal discomfort to survive the worlds they're forced to live in.
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And so that really affects the introspective connection.
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You know, they are working so hard unconsciously many times, but they're working so hard to, you know, disconnect from that introspective discomfort to survive.
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So when they're on their way to autistic burnout, they don't have this reliable like compass saying, hey, like something's going on.
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And then we hear that the the autistic burnout then further affects the interceptive piece.
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And many times people talk about a mute, an even more muted um experience.
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So then, you know, they're trying to figure out what they're about, what's going on in their body, their body is collapsing.
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Um, what's going on?
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How do I protect my energy?
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And there's just like not a lot of reliable feedback happening.
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And a lot of times, too, we hear that the sensory world outside of the body becomes super loud with autistic burnout, and not again for everyone, but for a lot of people, which then further compounds interoception.
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Because if your if your sensory experience is really heightened, um, out of protection for yourself, your body is just naturally going to be hyper-vigilant to the outside world, you know, because it is so attacking to your nervous system.
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You're going to be like watching and waiting and protecting yourself.
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Not a lot of inter not a lot of attention resources left for your body then, because all of your attention is on the outside, like naturally, you know, it's just the way our body works to protect ourselves.
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So that whole interception piece is so vital and important and messy and complicated within sensory experiences and burnout.
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Yeah, and I think it it was really interesting.
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I was thinking about coming on with you today.
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I was thinking about a conversation that I had with my son once, and this probably links in in here, is that we often as well, I think sometimes as adults, will kind of almost negate somebody's interception, if that makes sense.
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So I remember having very strongly my son was quite young and was very, very distressed about something.
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And I remember giving him a hug at the time and saying to him, it's okay.
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And I remember him turning around to me and saying, It's not okay.
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And he was absolutely right.
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It was not okay, it didn't feel okay.
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And by me saying it's okay was kind of leading him to distrust the feelings that he was having, and that's not something we now say in our house.
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We don't say everything is okay, we talk about what's going on, but you know, I think it's it's quite an easy thing to fall into, possibly if even when maybe you're having a conversation with another parent who's really struggling that day is saying to them, it's okay, it'll be okay.
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Actually, they've got signals inside their body that are screaming it is not okay.
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Yeah, I mean, I think that it's important that you're vulnerably sharing that because I also have said the same types of things to my children.
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And I I believe it's coming from a place of love.
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We're trying to help a person feel better.
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But what we're actually saying is in that case, when we're saying it's okay, when it's clearly not, we're saying what you are feeling right now can't possibly be true.
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What you're feeling right now, don't trust it.
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It's not right.
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Like I know better about your body than you.
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:27.519
Like if you unpack it from an introsception standpoint, like it gives me goosebumps, like even thinking about it and like making makes me emotional.
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:30.960
Like, because I've said those things to my kids and my and my clients too.
00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:39.680
And I'm really working hard to update and really reflect on my language and how validating or invalidating it is to a person's experience.
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:40.240
Yeah.
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:44.880
I think you know, for me as well, you know, my son went through a period of not being able to go to school.
00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:51.519
He's autistic um and wasn't able to go to school and had to spend or still is out of school and educated at home.
00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:57.200
But I you know, I remember a kind of force, he was being forced into school.
00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:58.960
He was so distressed.
00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:04.880
Um, and we were forcing him into school, and actually he he's really struggled with that.
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:09.759
And I think people have gone to me, oh you know, it's you know, he struggles with it understanding his emotions because he's autistic.
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:12.960
And I'm like, I don't think I believe that actually.
00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:16.880
He's been so used to people saying to him, Oh, you shouldn't feel anxious about that.
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:18.160
Oh, come on, you're just being silly.
00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:20.079
Oh, just get him in and he'll be fine.
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.720
And not listening to what he's telling you.
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:27.359
That when that kid screams in the corner, it's actually physically painful in my head.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:32.640
When I go into school, I feel like my heart's gonna jump out of my chest and actually physically explode.
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:35.599
And we've just told him it's okay, it'll be alright once you get in there.
00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:37.440
And I feel really strongly about that.
00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:43.920
That actually it's really important to listen to what children are saying, but also to adults.
00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:45.599
We do it to adults too, you know.
00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:48.640
I'll just get you just do it, you'll be fine once you get in there and do it.
00:19:48.880 --> 00:19:54.240
And there's a balance, there is a balance between sometimes we have there is a little bit of anxiety to do something.
00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:57.359
We're never gonna be completely chilled out about everything.
00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:06.640
That's not life, and sometimes new things are scary, but also, like you said, being able to step back and and and listen to what our bodies are saying.
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:14.720
Absolutely, and I think it can be the same end goal, but you know, if something absolutely has to happen, then you you can still validate.
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:16.480
Like, I can see this is really hard for you.
00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:20.799
Let's figure out something that we can do together to try to make this as easy as possible.
00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:30.000
Even explaining the whys does this have have to happen, like, you know, like um, I think is also like so authentic and so validating to a person.
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:46.000
It doesn't mean it's gonna take away all the distress, but the val, like we're what we're learning in our interception work is, I think, one of the biggest factors of why we're having such success is because it's so deeply curious about a person's experience and it's so validating.
00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:48.559
Like someone is believing what I'm telling them.
00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:51.039
Like that is what we hear over and over from people.
00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.920
Um, so I can't express enough like what you're saying.
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.960
Like it is so incredibly valuable.
00:20:57.279 --> 00:20:57.839
Yeah.
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:00.960
And I think it links in then, doesn't it, to the behavior side of things.
00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:10.079
Because I spent my career, most of my career, working with kids that probably at some point have been labelled as difficult, challenging, hard to manage, all that kind of stuff.
00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:10.720
I love those kids.
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:12.079
I'm like, yeah, bring them on.
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:19.359
Um, but they get given these titles, and actually, I spent a lot of time as an OT being curious about but why?
00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:21.440
What is going on for those kids?
00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:28.480
And again, it wasn't until you kind of came around and started to bring that language around into reception that that made those links for me.
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:49.920
And again, I work with parents to support them to understand their kids' behaviours, but also their own behaviours, you know, parents snap or get cross or feel like we're the worst mum in the world because we don't want to get out of bed that day because life's been really tough recently, is is not beating ourselves up for the behaviors, but understanding where they come from.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:59.680
And you talk a lot around the kind of compliance side of things and the the impact that that can have um and the links for interception.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.319
Yeah, I mean, compliance is all about the outside appearance, right?
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:12.480
It's like what you said, like, oh, this behavior is essentially purposeful, it's manipulative, defiant, attention seeking, you name it.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:13.920
All of those terms are out there.
00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:18.160
They're so damaging for so many reasons, and they're also extremely untrue.
00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:22.720
Um, that I have never met a client that is doing something just on purpose.
00:22:22.799 --> 00:22:24.000
There is always a deep reason.
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:27.359
Now, is it hard to figure out the reason sometimes?
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:27.920
Yes.
00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:29.519
Oh my gosh.
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:33.920
Is it vulnerable to say as an adult, I don't know why they're doing this?
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:34.799
Yes.
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:38.640
You know, it's so much easier to say, I know why they're doing this.
00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:39.839
It's them being defiant.
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:43.680
Like that for us as an adult is like, I have the answer.
00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:46.079
I know what this is doing, what's going on, you know.
00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:50.799
So the shift towards an introsp is very vulnerable.
00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:58.079
It's saying we don't know, and we're gonna show up and try to figure it out together with the client, with our child.
00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:04.160
Um, and that uncertainty can be very unnerving for at least just for me.
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:08.480
Maybe it's not for your listeners, but it's very hard for me when I'm like, I don't know what's happening.
00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:11.759
But I will literally sometimes even say that out loud to my client.
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:15.359
Like, I don't know what you need right now, but I'm gonna work hard to try to figure it out.
00:23:15.519 --> 00:23:17.440
So, like, I'm just I am showing them.
00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:21.519
Like I'm trying, like I want to be on your side and hear I'm here with you.
00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:22.640
I might not get it right.
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:24.960
I'm gonna apologize if I guess wrong.
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:31.519
Like, all of those things are so incredibly important in that in that interception um process.
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:34.720
I suppose the next thing people are gonna go is great, okay.
00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:36.480
It's all about interoception.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:37.200
I now know that.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:38.480
I've listened to Kelly talk about it.
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:43.359
I know it could be interception, but what on earth do I do about it?
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:46.880
Oh boy, there's a lot.
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:51.119
I think that we probably covered a lot of the curiosity and validation.
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:59.200
So when I think like, you know, a lot of people, their first question is like, when their child is very distressed and dysregulated, like, what do I do?
00:23:59.440 --> 00:23:59.759
Right.
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.319
Like, um, and that is very hard um work to do.
00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:06.880
But like we said, like just try to be curious.
00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:08.000
Maybe not in the moment.
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:10.079
Don't be like, how's your body feeling?
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:12.559
Probably that's not gonna work out so well.
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:18.240
So maybe after the fact, like, I really want to try to understand what's going on for you so I can be a better supporter.
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:19.680
I always put it back on me.
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:21.839
It's on me as the support system.
00:24:22.000 --> 00:24:23.759
What can I do to better help you?
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:25.359
What's going on inside your body?
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:27.440
Do you notice something's going on?
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:31.119
Sometimes they might genuinely not know what's going on, and that's okay.
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:35.440
And I think that reassurance should, you know, we definitely need to reassure, like, that's that's okay.
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:38.400
You don't, you know, you didn't know what was happening in your body.
00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:40.720
That's very normal for a lot of people.
00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:57.039
Um, and then, you know, outside of that dysregulation, like when you're when they're dysregulated, just try your best to be curious, offer different ways to soothe their body, you know, like we already said, apologize when you get it wrong, admit you're trying, you're not getting it right, all those things.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:02.480
But then when they're regulated, that's when we can do the really like deeply curious work.
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:04.799
Um, and there's so many different things we're doing.
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:08.240
Like one of our strategies, like it's called the interception curriculum.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.039
And um, people are just like really loving it.
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:14.400
I want to give your listeners, if it's okay, one of my favorite strategies from the curriculum.
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:16.720
Okay, so we have these.
00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:23.759
So in the interception curriculum, the first part of the entire curriculum is focused on the body and noticing body signals.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:26.960
We break it down into one body part at a time.
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:29.279
So we're trying to like reduce the cognitive load.
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:40.880
So, for example, like in lesson one, we're doing lots of fun things to notice how your hands feel, and then the feet, and then um, you know, we do eyes and nose and mouth, and then we go inside and we do heart and lungs.
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:44.079
And so there's 15 different body parts we do one at a time.
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:49.359
And my favorite strategy from this part of the work is something called focus area experiments.
00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:58.400
And all that means is we're doing playful, fun things experiments um to evoke a stronger sensation in again, playful, fun ways.
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:02.000
Not like we're gonna we're gonna like wait till you're distressed and notice your body.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:04.240
We're doing it fun and regulated.
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:10.400
So, like, for example, with the hands, like we might hold like an ice pack, or maybe we'll put our hands in snow.
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:11.359
It just snowed here.
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.599
I put our hands in snow, or we'll shake our hands fast, or we'll squeeze slime.
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:22.799
And during all of those experiments, we give practice inviting the person to notice how their hands are feeling.
00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:25.200
So we can offer curiosity.
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:28.319
Like, I wonder how your hands feel right now when you're holding this ice cube.
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:30.559
Um, they don't even have to be able to tell you.
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:38.000
We can still give them the experiment, do it together, play together, um, and offer curiosity.
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.920
Um, sometimes I don't know if my clients are definitely noticing how their hands feel or not.
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:44.640
Sometimes they'll tell me what they're noticing and sometimes they don't.
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:50.720
Sometimes they'll tell me what their body like, they'll just drop the ice cube, and I'll be like, oh, like I see you just dropped the ice cube.
00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:53.680
I wonder what that means, like what your hand, how your hands are feeling.
00:26:53.839 --> 00:27:01.279
So there's so many different ways, is what I'm trying to say, of someone telling you how their body feels during the experiment, and that's your opportunity to believe them.
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:03.519
Always believe them no matter what they tell you.
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:09.119
If they tell you their hands smell like slimy poop when they're holding an ice cube, believe them, validate them.
00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:21.680
The minute we the minute we correct them, like we risk, we risk like really kind of rupturing that relationship and their their willingness to tell us what's actually happening in their body.
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:27.279
So lots of experiments in playful times, giving practice, noticing body signals.
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:40.799
Um, so that's like only a small part of the work, but it's like if you start anywhere else, like I mean, I think that will really get you far, just doing experiments with different body parts and being curious and and uh and validating can be really helpful.
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:49.039
And I think from a kind of parents' perspective, often as well, we are so busy as parents that we are running from one thing to the next to the next to the next to the next.
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:54.079
Actually, we don't have much chance to stop and think, what am I feeling?
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:55.359
What's going on?
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:57.519
We just have the reaction.
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:00.640
And I think, you know, as adults, we we'll get that anyway.
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:09.759
But I think especially as parents, when you've got demands coming at you from all sorts of directions, you're juggling 25 million different timetables for everybody, you've got to be here, they've got to be there.
00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:13.039
Someone's not got their shoes, or you know, all that, the usual.
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:17.039
And then you explode and you think, Yeah, what was going on for me?
00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:18.799
And yeah, you don't get time for that.
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:21.519
And actually, sometimes it is about that slowing down, isn't it?
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:42.319
And you know, doesn't work something that I do with with parents, is just giving them that opportunity to think about it, to to not have those feelings because sometimes we've been on the run for so long we're almost we're blocking them out, we're just we're off, um, and we're not used to to thinking and looking and going, Oh, do you know what?
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:45.039
I've got that sensation, I know this means that.
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:49.119
And when we know that, then you can put in your support strategies.
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:50.240
Absolutely.
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:57.599
And I think that you know, before you even start experiments, those focus area experiments, like there, there's even naturally occurring ones.
00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:08.720
Like, so maybe you don't have time to get an ice cube out, but you your kid, your kid might be washing their hands, and that's probably evoking some, you know, playful like sensations to get be like, hey, I wonder how your hands feel.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:12.319
But before you even start doing that, I think you're raising a great point.
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:20.240
And one of our very initial strategies is encouraging adults to model their own interceptive awareness out loud.
00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:28.799
And I I know, I don't know if any of your readers probably can't see us, but I'm kind of giggling right now only because when I started trying this, it was a disaster.
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:32.079
I realized very quickly that I didn't know how my body was feeling.
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:33.519
I was very disconnected.
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:35.119
I was pushing through life.
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:41.039
Um, I had a really hard time finding the vocabulary and the words to even describe the way my body feels.
00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:49.119
And I think that was coming from a place of like trying to find the right word because I was raised in the should feel era of like you should, your body should feel one way.
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:51.759
And if it's not right that way, then it's not right.
00:29:52.000 --> 00:30:01.359
So, like I encourage parents to stay in that talking out loud, like, you know, oh, my hands like feel like I don't know, really sticky right now from peeling that orange.
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:02.480
I'm gonna go wash them.
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:08.880
So what they're doing is they're labeling a body signal out loud, and then they're talking about what action they're gonna take to take care of their body.
00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:10.240
No emotion words in there.
00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:12.559
It's body signal to action.
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:16.480
And really stay in that lane for a solid month.
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:17.519
Give yourself grace.
00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:18.640
This might be hard.
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.920
And even if you don't know how your body feels, model that out loud.
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:23.279
We talked about that in the beginning.
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:26.240
See, like, I have such a weird feeling in my head right now.
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:27.279
I don't know what's going on.
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:28.000
Am I hungry?
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:28.960
Am I sleepy?
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:32.000
Like, just talk out loud about the way your body feels.
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:33.759
And you you know your kid best.
00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:39.599
Like, probably don't do it to the point where they get annoyed with you and be like, what are you doing about your body all the time?
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:42.400
Like, you know, you gotta balance it and be authentic and real.
00:30:44.240 --> 00:30:46.880
But I think kids know everyone, yeah.
00:30:47.119 --> 00:30:49.519
Yeah, like I mean, some of our kids are on to us.
00:30:49.599 --> 00:31:07.759
So, like, you know, you gotta be like really real and authentic, but it's gonna help you become become better connected to your body, but it also is modeling for your kid, like, hey, like this body is sending us some important messages, and you know, maybe we can kind of slow down, like you said, and start noticing them a little bit.
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:11.920
It's not gonna be perfect, but you know, can we find small moments to notice?
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:12.400
Yeah.
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:23.279
You had a post out just recently, you were talking about actually, you know, shying someone and sharing something with somebody about your inner world and about interception is actually really vulnerable.
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:24.880
It's a really, it's really scary.
00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:27.440
It could be a very scary place for someone to be.
00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:29.759
Yes, absolutely.
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:32.640
I mean, I think that's from so many different reasons.
00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:49.759
Like just society in general um doesn't really tell us that it's safe to share our inner feels because you know, we have a high risk of, like we said, being invalidated, dismissed, you know, plus, you know, we might have like a history of trauma, or maybe we're neurodivergent and have all the neurodivergent trauma.
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:52.559
Like there's just so many factors that make this so vulnerable.
00:31:52.720 --> 00:32:10.000
So find the safe people, the safe spaces, even if maybe it's by yourself, like in the shower, talking out loud about the way your body feels while you're washing your hair, like, you know, find the places that just little windows and be so gentle and kind to yourself in this process.
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:16.960
Kelly, if people were kind of thinking about, you know, I'd like to do a bit more around this, I'd like to know a bit more.
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:20.720
They might be parents themselves, they could be teachers listening, other OTs.
00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:22.960
What kind of things have you got available?
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:29.519
Because I know you've got your website, and we'll leave all of Kelly's details on the show notes so people can find Kelly and find the information.
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:33.359
Is there a really good place to start with some of your stuff, Kelly?
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:36.480
Um, well, I love free stuff.
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:39.519
So I always suggest getting it on my website.
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:42.799
We have an entire drop-down menu that says free.
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:46.880
Um we have free videos, free blogs, free printables.
00:32:47.119 --> 00:32:49.359
Like I feel like that's a really great place to start.
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:50.880
You can kind of choose your own adventure.
00:32:51.039 --> 00:33:04.480
We have lots and lots of kind of offshoots of introsception topics, whether that's introception and autistic burnout or introsception and art fit, like so many different offshoots of how introsception shows up in many different factors of life.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:07.039
So I think that's probably a really great place to start.
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:11.039
And then we always have all of our paid resources too, if you want to go deeper into that work.
00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:18.640
But we're passionate about the free stuffs, and I've heard from so many people like that that usually can fulfill a lot of people and their curiosities.
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:19.519
Yeah.
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:29.599
If you had one bit of advice, Kelly, for a parent out there that thinks maybe they've got some interceptive needs and difficulties.
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:32.880
What would your one piece of advice be for them?
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:36.640
Well, you know, really easy question for you, Kelly.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:37.680
Really easy.
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:41.839
Well, I think first of all, just know you're not alone.
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:47.920
It's so incredibly common to be disconnected from your body, to have interception differences.
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:54.000
And I really feel like that self-modeling um could be a really great place to start.
00:33:54.160 --> 00:34:01.359
Like just, and again, I I know I said this a few times, but I just can't stop emphasizing be gentle and kind to yourself if it's hard.
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:08.400
We do on the free resources section on my website have an entire booklet for free that it's all about adult modeling.
00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:11.760
So you might want to check that out, and that could be a really great resource for you.
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:14.639
Like, how do I go about starting this kind of thing?
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:25.360
Um, because that, like we said, it really has a side benefit of enhancing your own connection to your body, but also benefiting the your child or clients around you.
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:25.920
Yeah.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:27.119
It's so interesting.
00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:44.159
And I think for me, around the kind of burnout side of things, when I look at parents in carers in neurodivergent families, you know, SEND, so special educational needs families, um, and any kind of additional needs families, is you know, I look to support parents to protect against burnout.
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:53.679
And I think interception is one of those really important areas for me that I go to with those parents trying to support them around, trying to recognise some of those feelings.
00:34:53.760 --> 00:35:00.880
Because, as I say, a lot of the time it is that we're just on the run, we have got a lot to be juggling, especially when there's additional needs in the family.
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:05.599
Parents are juggling a lot as well as their own sensory needs.
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:14.960
And I think probably the only thing that we haven't touched on, and I just wanted to kind of bring probably listeners to listen to think about, is that every single one of us has a sensory profile.
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:19.039
It's not just for kids that have got difficulties or just for neurodivergent people.
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:21.360
Every single one of us has one.
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:23.360
They're different, everybody's is different.
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:29.039
Mine is different to Kelly's, Kelly's will be different to the next person's, and it's it's getting to know us, isn't it?
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:36.800
It's understanding what works for us, what doesn't work for us, and then being able to support around that where we need it, get more of what we love.
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:38.320
Um, because that's also important.
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:40.400
There's some things that we love around our sensory systems.
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:41.519
We need more of that.
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:49.679
Um it's really important to think it's not a less of, you're not less of a person, you're just a person with a sensory need.
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:54.000
And this is your sensory differences, these are your sensory strengths and loves.
00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:56.000
But actually, we've all got them.
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:57.599
Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:57.840 --> 00:35:58.400
100%.
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:02.000
I want to say thank you ever so much, Kelly.
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:03.440
I really appreciate you coming on to talk.
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:05.039
I love talking to another OT.
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:06.480
It always makes my day.
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:11.440
Um, especially around something like this, around you're thinking about behavior and burnout and neurodivergence.
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:13.039
It's really, really important to me.
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:17.360
So I really value and I appreciate you for being on and coming on to the podcast today.
00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:18.480
Yeah, no problem.
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:19.360
Thanks for having me.
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:20.480
Thanks, Kelly.