Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate, and conversations-to-text do not always translate perfectly. I include it to provide you with the spirit of the conversation.
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody, welcome back to the Phronesis podcast. Thanks for checking in wherever you are in the world today. fun conversation with Dr. John Ross this afternoon, or this morning or this evening, wherever you are, whatever time it is, for me, it's the afternoon when we're talking. But John started his career as a seventh-grade history teacher in Mesa, Arizona. From there, he worked as a producer of musical events and then as a project lead at one of the world's leading manufacturers before becoming a business professor at Indiana University Southeast campus. He has been researching and working with teams for more than a decade. His research and extraordinary teams and unity has since expanded into hope, knowledge acquisition, and retention. He holds a BA in organizational studies from Arizona State University, an MBA in finance from Drexel University, and a Ph.D. in management from New Mexico State University. And he has a book, it's called team unity. It's an incredible book. I listened to it this summer, John, now I traveled, I traveled with your thinking for many, many weeks, whether that was on an airplane, in my car, on my walks, your thinking was with me, and so I'm excited to jump into that today. But how awesome are Arizona and New Mexico? Let's start there. Pennsylvania is awesome too...
John Ross 1:23
How bout Philly? I mean, there are good people there. But uh, you know, the Southwest says it has its charms. I have to admit, though, I was ready to leave. Really? Yeah, yeah. So you know, you and I were in the Midwest. And here, if we were to get lost if our car were to break down, we could survive. Right like that. Like, it's beautiful. There's running water, like, everything's fine. Now, in the southwest, everything's trying to kill you. Like, it's just death everywhere. And it's, it's, it's brutal. And it's gotten so congested now. I mean, we lived 20 minutes away from Target. Or it was only four miles, like four miles took us 20 minutes ago with all the stoplights and everything here. Oh, yeah, it's nice there, we like it a lot. Very friendly people in both places. We've lived all over. Wonderful, wonderful country. But we're we like where we're at.
Scott Allen 2:16
Yeah, well, you know, if I recall correctly, there are like 11 exits in Mesa, Arizona. The next 11 exits are Mesa.
John Ross 2:26
Yeah. And then Phoenix is like, just go it will tell you when to stop. That's what the sign says, like, will tell you when you're out. You know, it's like, okay, all right. It's just so huge. It's great. Like, I own some stores out there. I own some electronic stores as well. And they're doing fantastic down there. So it's a great place. And I go down there regularly, but it's pieces time. Time. Yeah. Well, you know, that the country, I think we forget how awesome our country is just the landscape and the people and the different cultures. And so it's been a blast going with my family across and, and just experiencing it all?
Scott Allen 3:02
It is I mean because we were in New Mexico, I had not spent a lot of time in New Mike, I'd spent almost zero time in New Mexico. But boy, I mean, that state it in and of itself is fascinating with whether it's the food and the cuisine, or whether it's the history and the culture, whether it's the atomic bomb, whether it's the natural beauty of Bandelier National Monument, or white sands or Carlsbad Caverns, I mean, that's just it's a fascinating state. And then we stumbled upon pistachio land. We weren't expecting this, but they have incredible pistachios to boot, right?
John Ross 3:38
I love that you listed all of those things you'd like, but to top it off. Yeah, not many people go that route. Yeah, there are a lot of pistachios there. Lots of nuts. Lots of lots of pecans and walnuts there too. No, it's a beautiful place. We lived in Las Cruces. That's where New Mexico state is. So for all you listening right now that are thinking, oh, yeah, the Lobos? No, that's the other guys. So the ones in Albuquerque. Now we're the ones in Las Cruces, Las Cruces was wonderful to live in, kind of a smaller town feel. And we actually really love the diversity there. It was 60%, Hispanic, 20% other, and 20%. White. And we love that we hesitated moving out where we are now because they're like, Wow, this is different from where we used to live. It was beautiful culture, like just such a family-friendly culture, everything and every school, the whole family generations came out to support it. It was so nice to see just a good place all around fun.
Scott Allen 4:38
Well, I think you're right. I mean, we live in just a really wonderful, wonderful place. And there is there's so much whether it's the culture of diversity, or just the diversity in landscape because again, where you are now lots of green, flat out there. Everything's trying to kill you. Bless you. That's to survive the heat or the expansive space in between gas stations. It's there's a lot going on.
John Ross 5:09
Let's pause this and talk about the heat for a second. That everyone here is like, oh, Arizona is a dry heat. So no big deal. Yeah, well, when it's 122 degrees outside, and things inside your car are melting. It's hot, okay, like people that we like the papers keep track of a death toll of like, who died how many died from the heatwave this year? You don't get that anywhere else in the country. So for everyone that's thinking, Yeah, but it's not human. Well, it kills you. No one's ever died from humidity. Alright,
Scott Allen 5:41
So like, like, airplanes can't take off at a certain temperature.
John Ross 5:45
Like because their tires are literally melting. It's ripping up the runway like we got to, that doesn't happen in most of the country. So
Scott Allen 5:53
okay, I want to jump into this book Team Unity because I absolutely. We met last summer at the management and organizational behavior teaching Society Conference. You sat down, we had not met, but you sat down, and we started talking about your book, team unity. And then I actually came to one of your sessions. And that was an incredible experience. So right, I think as we were at the table sitting, I bought your book on Audible. And then it was from there that for a good portion of the summer. And I am not blowing smoke. For me, it is literally the best book on teams I've ever come across. And I've only read one, which was yours.
John Ross 6:34
well, do me a favor and leave that review on Amazon. That would be fantastic. No, no, I really appreciate that. It's great.
Scott Allen 6:41
It's just great. I mean, thank you for the work.
John Ross 6:46
You know, in the academic world, we publish journal articles. And while those are fun, I really enjoyed researching this book is my labor of love like this was I mean, a normal journal article five to 10,000 words ish this is I wrote it with 60,000 words, we trim 25,000 words, and I added 35,000 words. And so it's 70,000 words like it was it's way easier to publish an article for sure. But this was, I loved it so much. Obviously, I could go on for 70,000 words. So I have to contain myself a little bit. But this is it's truly a passion. You know, as I talk to business leaders and such, it's interesting their views on teams. And they're just like, oh, it's we have a good team. We have bad teams, whatever. It's like no, oh, my gosh, a team is so complex. It's more than just good and bad. And every team exists on a scale, and you can take it from a poor performing to a higher performer. Every team has that chance. Yeah, anyway, as I said,
Scott Allen 7:49
Well, no, no, take us through that. I mean, okay, so let's go kind of 50,000 feet, with your, your kind of general way of how you're approaching the topic. But then I would love to kind of drill down into each of the four primary areas a little bit. Obviously, we want to entice listeners so that they go out and buy team unity. Because again, and for listeners, it literally is the best book I've ever read on teams. It's just it's so well done. And it's easily digestible. And it just makes great intuitive sense. It's a wonderful, wonderful read. So I just want to give listeners, I want to give listeners a flavor of that work.
John Ross 8:29
Thank you very much. Now, before we get started talking about unity, it's important to understand there are two key parts that when I work with people, they have to understand that number one we've already touched, all teams can improve. Like it's not a light switch, every team can improve. And number two, it's not about talent. And there are many examples of that throughout sports. Basketball is a wonderful example. There are many super-stacked teams, handpick teams that aren't performing so well in basketball right now. And that's I realized that's a very controversial topic. And it will stray away from that, but there are so many examples where it's not all about talent. It's as far as everything being equal. So long as everything's equal, then it's all about how unified a team is. So once you understand that, then we can dive in. book starts off with what is unity? It's a word we throw out every president since JFK has talked about unifying the country, but I mean, you can ask 100 people, and no one will give you the same answer, and what that means everyone's gonna say, bring everyone together. Well, okay. Like, okay, so like, what does that mean? Like, how are you going to do it? You know, how are you going to comp like, like, what, what break that down for me? What does that look like? How do you know when everyone's together? So that's what we do in the book. We break it down. Essentially, it comes down to four components focus, direction, trust, and conflict.
Scott Allen 9:51
And now, when you say "we," you mean "I," correct? Or is there more than one of you up there?
John Ross 9:55
No, you're right. You know, when we talk, we often represent other people, in this case, I guess I'm just representing me.
Scott Allen 10:11
Take full ownership of this awesome work!
John Ross 10:16
It's been, there have been many people, there have been many people that have helped and so many interviews and so many teams I've worked with to bring this to pass. It's been wonderful. So, there is a big "we." I am the one that wrote it and put it on paper. Yes.
Scott Allen 10:31
So four areas, I interrupted you...
John Ross 10:34
Yeah, focus direction, trust in conflict. So focus, understanding, and commitment to the goal. So often and again, how this differs is that many other teams books, and there are some very famous teams books out there, they stop at just the goal. Okay, well, you can understand the goal and totally not be committed to it, right? You can write the best goal in the world and just be like, Okay, we have the best goal in the world. It's a SMART goal; check that box. But that doesn't mean you're going anywhere with that goal. It doesn't mean everyone's bought into the goal, right? So you got to get that commitment portion to the next part is direction. So the strategy is how you're going to reach that goal, right? And again, understanding and commitment to that. And this is all this breaks down into many further components. You gotta read the book, though. It's really. And then, and then trust is interesting. Trust is social trust. So this is a new construct that I developed through all of this research. What a lot of people default to is psychological safety. Amy Edmondson psychological safety. I think she was on your podcast recently.
Scott Allen 11:34
No, I have not. I've reached out to her people. And her okay...She's busy. And I wish I had good people. Yeah. And I need to get back to her. So So, we're working on it in the background, literally, as we speak. I'm not interviewing you. I'm just typing Amy Edmondson, trying to get her on the podcast, but no, yeah. So yeah, it's a goal. It's a goal.
John Ross 11:59
She was busy. So you got me. Okay.
Scott Allen 12:03
You said, Yes, right away, you don't have any people - I just emailed you!
John Ross 12:06
Yeah, you're like, oh, wow, this guy really wants this like, Wow, that's crazy. No, so Amy Edmondson does fantastic work on psychological safety. And some people take that out of context. So like, okay, so you feel safe at work? Yes, absolutely. You feel safe to be yourself. But social trust is psychological safety, and more social trust is, just because you can feel safe at work to be yourself does not mean that you feel safe to talk about topics on certain topics with your co-workers. And so think about that trust is that exchange, I'm going to talk about personal things, and you reciprocate by talking about personal things, and therefore we build that comfort between each other. That's vital that and that is separate from the social trust, for sure. To have that special feeling among your team. So social trust is critical, critical to reaching the highest level team, which I call an extraordinary team. But you don't need it for success. That's a common mistake. People say you know, you can, you can have a team and throw a bunch of resources at it and accomplish a goal, that's fine. But if you want the highest performing team, if you want the most efficient and fun team, because think about how fun it is, when you have high levels of social trust, then work on that work on improving your social trust. The last one is conflict. Conflict is more like, it's more like a warning. You know, it's like when you ask for directions, and someone says, okay, but don't go down this road. Right? Like this road is dangerous or the weather, it's raining outside, so be careful. So think of it like that, like you maximize the first three but conflict you're gonna minimize, and we're talking about the relational conflict here. Okay, so So oftentimes, people think of task conflict, like it's okay to disagree on how to do something that often results in a better product. Yeah. Because we can each add our own pieces, our own expertise, and all of a sudden, bam, it's better. It's improved, which is wonderful. Relational conflict is when two people just don't like each other. Yeah. I mean, that's obviously very, like minimalizing, what their relational conflict is, but, but as I refer to it, it's the vacuum of success. It is so critical to get rid of relational conflict. It's noticeable that the highest teams, extraordinary teams, don't have it, and the lowest performing teams have it tremendously. So as an example, in the book, there's a formula. So this book was written intentionally for people to be able to apply it immediately. So the formula in there is written in a way to show how important conflict is. So essentially, it's focused on direction plus two times stress, all of that divided by conflict, right? Yep. So that seems really powerful. So when I go present to these big rooms and everything, it never fails, that at least a few people in the room are like, wait, relational conflict if you just have a two or three and relational conflict, it devastates your score. Are you telling me that a three just because you have gossiping and backbiting in your team that it hurts your team performance that much your team unity? And the answer's yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. And it will devastate your results. Because think of it. If you have a group of people that won't work with another group of people, and they're trying to tear them down, the person that's trying to perform is now worried about these other schmoes over here that are trying to tear them down. And so now that social trust starts to decrease right? Now, all of a sudden, I'm not focused as focused on the goal. I'm not as focused on the strategy because now I'm more focused on self-preservation. Yep. Right now, I'm trying to improve my statutes. It's like, oh, no, they're trying to tear me down. I need my boss to make sure that then that he or she knows and I'm fantastic, right? Yeah. And so there's this constant battle. Oh, it's terrible. It's terrible.
Scott Allen 15:57
I was reading. Actually, I'm listening to a book by Ray Dalio right now called Principles. In that book, he highlights the work of Keegan, Robert Keegan. And I forget the exact phrasing. But Keegan says something like, you know, most people have two jobs, not just one. One is the actual work. And then the other one is managing people's impressions of the work. What you bring to the table, it's something to that effect. There's all this other stuff happening over here. That just eats away at us actually being able to do the work and knock it out of the park. Right. Oh, huge that relationship conflict?
John Ross 16:36
Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, you're talking about everyone having two jobs. That's, so that's so relevant in today's time with virtual teams. Right. And, and everyone working virtually, I just spoke to a friend yesterday that said she wasn't feeling well. So she spent her whole day just keeping her mouse green. You know, just making sure she moved her mouse every three minutes so that her little icon stayed green, right? Because that's that impression management like, Oh, I'm busy. I'm busy because I hear that a lot from my students to let them just, it's very ancient. Raise your hand out there listening. If you've had a day where you're like, I'm just going to look busy because I'm not getting much work done today. Yes.
Scott Allen 17:15
Okay. So talk about the two times trust.
John Ross 17:18
Oh, two times trust. Okay. Good point. Okay, so, so focusing on the direction is the biggest part, right? So, so that part, you know, that's huge. We get those two things together. Fantastic. The two times trust is interesting because that signals that trust isn't as important. You can still have a great team, you can still have a team that's fully focused and full, like a ten and direction, but maybe you just aren't that familiar with each other. In fact, think of it like this. How many times have you worked with someone for five-plus years? And you barely know anything about them? You're cordial with them. You're nice to him. You say hi to them. Maybe you say oh, how was your weekend? You know, something like that. But you don't have that high level of social trust, in those scenarios. You can absolutely have a team that gets the job done. You can have a high-performing team, and there are scenarios but the two times trust it's Think of it like it's like the secret sauce or the or the in your case the pistachios in New Mexico, right? This is the top, like the hot fudge on an ice cream sundae, the whipped cream, right? This is it's a good Sunday without that stuff. New Mexico is great without pistachios, but man, it's so much better with pistachio it is it really truly is. It really truly is
Scott Allen 18:27
A giant pistachio out in front of pistachio land, which really welcomes you. And just a wonderful way.
John Ross 18:34
There are teeth marks on that statue. No, there are teeth marks on that Mustachio when people try to eat it. I'm sure it's just I hope it's just a joke. But there are teeth marks on that pistachio? Well, it's
Scott Allen 18:49
so funny because we were driving into Alamogordo. And all along, they say, the world's largest pistachio. So we were thinking we were going to drive in and see just large pistachio. And we didn't necessarily know that it was just going to be like a structure like concrete. You know? Yeah, the statue. We thought it was going to be real pistachio. And I think my daughter said something like, "I hate it when my imagination lets me down," because she was so bummed out. But it wasn't. It wasn't a real largest pistachio in the world. We were excited to see that. Right.
John Ross 19:22
Well, for all of my Las Cruces people out there. They have another largest they have the largest chili pepper. Oh, it's in front of one of the hotels. It's similar to if your daughter's listening right now. Don't let your imagination it is not real large chili pepper. It is made out of cement and everything, and it's red and green. But they are they're very proud of their chili peppers. Their hatched green chilies are phenomenal. And during this time of year, they're roasting everywhere, and you can go to any grocery store parking lot there roasting
Scott Allen 19:55
odds. You can get your meals I think they call it Christmas you can get red and If I'm not mistaken,
John Ross 20:01
Yes. In fact, there's a false rumor that's swirling around that every time you come into town or if you're new in town, they say, oh, every restaurant asks you, what, how do you like it red or green? There's a big debate. That's not true. There's no debate on it. Like, it's obviously green. That's what everyone likes. There's no debate. So I don't know if people are building up this big debate. It's not true. There are two sauces out there. They're both phenomenal, especially today. Just depends on where you go. But it's
Scott Allen 20:31
That's a great segue into a great segue segues into talking about some of the teams that you worked with because this is all based on your research. Talk about some teams that you worked with that were really doing it. Well, would you tell a couple of stories?
John Ross 20:49
That's a great question. So...
Scott Allen 20:52
...it was a great segue.
John Ross 20:55
It was a good segue. Great segue. Thank you very much, Scott. That was fantastic. Yeah, so there have been some phenomenal teams that I've worked with. One of the first ones I worked with was really fun. I actually was, was working with a band. Okay, high-performing collegiate band, I was there for a completely different reason. Yeah. And then I started talking to the conductor. And it was his idea. He said, Man, you know what, being in a band is like this, like teamwork. And I was like, I never thought of it like that. I mean, I'm interested in teams, but whatever. I'm here for something else. And then I started watching; I was like, Whoa, this is really good. Yeah. And there was a great opportunity there where I was able to start interviewing again; I was there for another reason. But I was like, Oh, dang, like, this is really good, right? I interviewed section leaders and how section leaders work with other section leaders and how conflict works with a team, if you have, if someone, a percussionist, who's normally in the back, if there are conflicts that they have with the clarinetists, then that can cause issues with their playing performance. Anyways, it was really cool. But this fan, this conductor, I should say, did a phenomenal job of getting him to work together and really brought them together, and actually had me train them in teamwork, which at the time, I mean, I was this was like nine years ago. So my research was barely even started at that point on the subject. But it was, it was a lot of fun to see their growth and to see them all pushing for this goal. There was an invitational in the Philippines, and they all wanted to go to that. You said, Okay, that's a big deal. So you're gonna have to perform at this level. They were on board. I mean, that's super cool. With that being said, another music group that actually just happened this past weekend, or sorry, this past month, I was volunteering with an acapella group. It was one of those things. I don't know if any of you have kids, and they ask for a volunteer, and you don't volunteer because you're like, well, not me. Someone else is going to jump on that. And then they said, Okay, no, we really need volunteers. Like no one signed up. It's like, okay, I'll go; I didn't know what to expect. I have the coolest kid. So I was happy to be there with my kid with my oldest son, but, but that was like, you know, it's acapella. I've seen, I've seen Pitch Perfect. One and two. So I'm kind of this is what I'm expecting. My imagination lets me down. I was expecting to sing just to break out that spontaneous
Scott Allen 23:13
journey, like really cool versions of Journey songs, right?
John Ross 23:17
I've seen a few episodes of Glee. And I'm like, I don't know. Like, I don't see anyone sad and walking in a melodic way or anything like that, but I'm there. And it was amazing to see these kids from all different walks of life. And they want to win state this year. They got third place last year. He was he was amazing. I mean, here you have these kids. These are high schoolers. What's most important to a high schooler for most high schoolers? social life, right? Like that's critical. Not here. I mean, here we are staying in cabins a far away from normal life, I guess. Many opportunities for them to hang out and goof off and everything. Nope. They were 100% focused. They were there. She broke down the strategy. This director is fantastic. broke down the strategy. Okay, guys, if you want to win state, here's what it takes; here's where we need to be. And here's how we're gonna get there. And they said, Let's do it. And then she had some trust exercises. It was really cool. But there was also this, I mean, this kind of as a joke, but it was also really cool to see a chaperone stew to start off as a completely new team. We didn't know what we were doing. We didn't even know why we were there. Really. I mean, we knew why we were there. But the director had had things in such great order that we were like, she doesn't even need us, like these kids aren't going to do anything because they love her and respect her so much. But we got together and said, but we're here, so why not do something, and we really pulled it together. In fact, even the director was like, I don't know what you guys did, but you guys are way more active, and you guys did all this extra stuff anyway. So those are some very recent ones. They are all centered around music. So as I talked about in the book, some of the worst performing teams I've ever worked with, and I won't say the companies, because that's not fair. No, no, no, I don't want to do that. But executive teams are the worst teams I've ever worked with. I worked with this team, where they knew the answer. Like these executives knew the answer, right? They're trying to save money, right? cutting costs and everything. They knew what the answer was, and the answer was to work together, right? Hey, if we ordered this part, then we can save this money because we can get, you know, all these crazy good discounts. And we can do this and that. And all we need is for you to sign off on it. And the other vice president saying no, no, I'm good. Do you know why? Because that makes you look good. Instead of me, everyone was vying for the next spot. Because once you're Vice President, that next spot, it's the C suite, right? And in this case, the salary jumped up to a million a year plus stock, less access to the private plane plus your own bathroom. Plus, two secretaries to admins. Yeah, yeah. And that's, yeah, it's pretty exciting. So I actually interviewed not only did I work with them, I went to the COO, and I shared my results, I actually use the formula in different ways. And I share my results. It's like, these are the lowest scores I've ever seen, like, your people don't like each other. Like they are not. They're not working together. And her response was, that doesn't surprise me. Yeah. And I knew this person. Well, like we had done. I know this sounds silly, but we had done many potlucks together. Okay. I'm a big fan of food. I started when I used to work at this corporation, I started a Thursday dessert potluck. So every Thursday when people bring in cookies and cakes, we just move off in a bit a worked its way up the chain to where I had executives coming out. And joining us as it turned into this wonderful networking opportunity. But it started off; it's just people baking cookies at work. So there's fun. But anyway, she said she wasn't surprised. Because she knows what the next spot means to them. Like, you know, these, like you don't get to be a vice president without being some sort of a type of personality, some sort of competitive person, right? You're, you're a doer, you're someone that is very intelligent, right? Like you've been chosen. And this is a multi-billion dollar organization that I was working with. And so that next step is a major resume boost, right? And it changes it will literally change your life. So instead of working together, which is what she said, she said, the person that I'm going to hire to replace me is the person that can unify everyone is the person that will actually pull people together, and they can get them to work because that's what my job is. It's herding cats. There's another example. This is my story. This came from one of my students. So I teach a graduate-level teams class in which unity plays a big part of that. But one of my students talked about volleyball. Have you ever thought about volleyball as being a team sport?
Scott Allen 28:00
I have. Yeah. Unless it's just the two of them. But I guess that's even...
John Ross 28:05
Yeah, wait, they start to work together. But
Scott Allen 28:09
No, totally. But it's two people a team. I mean, how do you define that? Okay,
John Ross 28:14
Well, the detriment that's what's so great about unity is that this book, not just book, The, you know, unity and everything. It's not just about teams; it's about relationships. So anytime you have two or more, I mean, it's marriage, right? It can help marriage; it can help sand volleyball teams. I mean, anytime you have a relationship, this is what it's all about. It's people working together. That's, and that's what we do, Scott, like, we're the science of people working together. So yep, it's cool. But anyway, this team, I never thought about volleyball. So I've used my, I've used this formula in many different industries, six different industries. I've used it in sports before, but mostly with basketball and football. I never thought about volleyball because volleyball kind of seems like independent contractors, right? Like, everyone's got their own place. And like, hey, when I do this, you do this, like, That's it like you just fulfill your role, and I just fulfill my role versus a basketball where it's constantly moving and shifting. And sometimes you're the leader because you're the one with the ball. Sometimes you're the one waiting for a pass. Sometimes you're the one just being a decoy, right? Like, there's so many constantly moving parts, and basketball and volleyball just seemed kind of static, you know, I mean, they're moving, but it's like, you know what I'm saying? I didn't know, and this is my ignorance from all of you out there listening that are going you're an idiot. Yes, yes. Yes.
Scott Allen 29:31
I did when it comes to volleyball I am.
John Ross 29:34
One of my students was from the number one collegiate women's volleyball team in the nation. Okay. The University of Louisville. And, and so she was like, oh, man, and she was sharing such wonderful, beautiful examples of these girls coming from all over the United States. They don't know each other, but they want to win. They're hyper-competitive, and they want to win, but everyone has their own way because, remember, they all come from different training, they all come from different coaches. And now they have to unite under one banner. And she and the coach has to say, everything you've learned before is wonderful. And you're going to use that. But you're going to do it in this way in this unified way. And it's, it was an amazing story to hear how she's able to pull people together. And she has to do this every year because her girls are constantly being recruited to go all sorts of different directions. Which is a major issue with those high-performing levels of college sports, right, is that they're constantly being pulled out. And these coaches have to reform every year. It's a fantastic story.
Scott Allen 30:37
So that was based on what you could tell an (ET) or an extraordinary team?
John Ross 30:41
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, everything that they did, again, every week, we would ask questions, and there were discussion posts and everything. And every week, she'd post a little bit more about that story. And so then I actually interviewed her after class. Like, after the class was over. I was like, Can I want to talk more I have more stories, and I should have done a podcast, but I have more stories. And I want to get out of here. Like I want to learn more about the soul volleyball team where she schooled me on that she was very enlightening. But yeah, beautiful story about coaches. And I mean, we see them as coaches. And we're like, yeah, coaches, you know, they correct how you play, we don't see them as team builders, a lot of times and people come to their team from all over and, and that's they have to, they have to work with all sorts of different personalities. Everyone wants to be a superstar, especially in today's time, in the name, image likeness, where you can, you can make great money in college. And so there's a lot of independent contractors out there that are out for themselves.
Scott Allen 31:43
I know that you are a huge fan of basketball. I mean, it just reminded me of that John Wooden story where one of the first things he did was teach them how to lace their shoes. Like, yeah, we're gonna start here and build.
John Ross 31:57
Absolutely. It's so it's so interesting. And so think about that in the workplace. Like, let's translate this to the workplace. So many times, we forget that our team members that were the leaders have come from all sorts of other leaders. And with that, they bring all sorts of baggage. Yep. And with that, they have baggage from their family. They have baggage from their other teams that they've been on, maybe they've been leaders before, and now they're there. They're one of your team members instead of the team's leader. I mean, there are so many things that you have to work with. And so uniting a group that comes from all different walks of life into a single banner is tough. Yeah, it's really tough. It's a science. Yeah.
Scott Allen 32:45
Well, it's hard enough to lead myself, much less a bunch of other folks who write that just makes it more complex.
John Ross 32:53
Yeah, it is very humbling to have to talk to someone on your team and go; I'm about to talk to you about something that I need to work on myself, right? Yeah,
Scott Allen 33:02
well, again, I just really appreciate the work; I'm going to put a link to the book in the show notes. And I think that'll be a really nice opportunity for people to learn a little bit more. Is there any other resource that you want to point people toward that would be of benefit for them? A website or Twitter handle? Or maybe you have a tic-tock page on teams?
John Ross 33:27
I do my team dances...Go to www.leader411.com; great little blog there. I just, you know, we're writers, we're authors. And so we just want to keep fresh. And these are little thoughts that I've had, but it's also some of the interviews I've done. So the next book that I'm writing, I wanted it to be everyday teams because so many of our books that are written today have just talked about Google, Amazon, Apple, Walmart, right? Like the D. Aw, that's that's pretty much what they talked about. I wanted to demonstrate that across the world. Fantastic. Teams are happening everywhere, unique, fantastic teams. And so some of my interviews are there, such as a world-famous magician. That's teamwork. I didn't know it was great to talk to him.
Scott Allen 34:15
Right. It's like volleyball.
John Ross 34:17
I didn't know, but it's a huge amount of teamwork. It was special, especially one of the things that he talks about, and you can read about it. A leader for one one.com is about social trust and how important that is. The Coast Guard. Why don't we talk about the Coast Guard.
Scott Allen 34:32
If you're gonna cut me in half. I need to trust you.
John Ross 34:36
That this is like a big deal, I need to know that if you lose my keys, I can get them back together.
Scott Allen 34:47
And your segue to the Coast Guard. I teach with two former rear admirals, they were in charge of the Great Lakes for the Coast Guard, and yeah, I mean, that is Wow, some of those stories.
John Ross 34:58
So when I started Like this whole, like, I'm gonna interview unique people. I started with him he was a good friend of mine again, we go to each other's houses, we have barbecues, our kids are great friends. So this is someone I've known for several years. And I said that I let me just take you out for lunch. By the way, if anyone wants a free lunch and has a good story to tell, that's how I pay my people back. I take him out to lunch. So, so I said, let me just take you out to lunch. And let's just talk I just want to hear some stories. He shared the most amazing story about getting up, where he's like jumping into Blackwater, and like swimming over and saving lives, and like, What the heck is happening right now? Like, why don't these stories never be in books, and they should be there? I have stories from an underwater archaeologist.
Scott Allen 35:42
Oh, wow. Like looking for Atlantis and stuff? Yeah, underwater archaeologist,
John Ross 35:46
Antarctic explorers. Nice. Yeah. I mean, there's a whole collection of them. You can look up some of them online. So yeah, that's, that's a great place to go.
Scott Allen 35:58
I love it. Okay, the final question of the day. What's something that you've been reading or listening to streaming that could have something to do with what we've just discussed? It could have nothing to do with what we just discussed. What's something that's caught your attention in recent weeks that listeners might be interested in?
John Ross 36:15
Okay. So I like all sorts of topics. I'm always about learning. So there are two I'm going to point out; okay, number one, this book blew my mind. I'm looking it up right now. It's called cultish. But I want to tell you, the author, Amanda Montell, Cultish is it's about language and the power of language and how cult leaders use language to subjugate their people. It sounds like a very dark book. But it actually only briefly, I shouldn't say. Briefly, only a small portion of the book talks about like the big cults. Most of the book talks about, like, the mediocre colts, like things that are maybe not that are in our lives. And I don't want to say him because I don't want to like give a bad rap. Amanda can do that. But there are things in our lives that are colts that are like mini colts that are cultish. So she talks about the language that they use to ensnare you and to make you feel bad if you try to leave. And it blew my mind. Like, oh, looks like
Scott Allen 37:15
my hairdresser. John would be your
John Ross 37:18
could be your hairdresser...
Scott Allen 37:20
Cuz I allowed when I leave my hairdresser. I don't know right now; I am intrigued...
John Ross 37:26
if you were to try to find a new hairdresser, and your hairdresser is like, you're gonna fail in life. If you find a new hairdresser. That would be cool, too.
Scott Allen 37:34
Yeah, that's we haven't gotten to that point yet. But I do feel bad. You know, if I'd be
John Ross 37:38
Wouldn't that be fun to find a hairdresser that confident to say, "your life will fail without me in it?" That's a really good hairstyle. So yeah. So that's one book, but because of the discussion, the other book, so I actually, I just really enjoy writing. And so I also write middle-grade fiction, because why not? Middle Grade is a specific genre. It's actually, if anyone would like to know, the hottest genre on the market right now. It goes from ages eight to 12. Okay. Okay, so these are so Harry Potter, the first few books of Harry Potter - middle-grade fiction. It's not about how many pages it is or how many words it is, but just the content. Right? Okay. So I write that as well. I have a book that is, hopefully, will be published here soon. It's a lot of fun to write. But I'm reading this other book on creativity. And look how fun this book is for those of you that this isn't a video. I'm just showing this to Scott, but it's called Wonder Book. And it's by Jeff VanderMeer. And it's about how to write creative fiction. But it's filled with, like, really cool illustrations and just fun little pieces of work. And so it just talks about like building a world.
Scott Allen 38:49
I love it. Okay, sir. Thank you so much for being with me today. I really, really appreciate it. Thanks for the good work that you do. I'm excited about this new book that is not middle-grade fiction, no offense on that one. That will be exciting to a faction of people. And I'll buy it from my daughters. But I'm excited about these everyday teams and people doing work that may not have some of that light shone on them but are doing incredible things in the world. And so I very, very much appreciate that. You'll come back. I appreciate it. Too much fun. We wandered in a very nice way. This was the most wandering episode ever. But we came back to things we stayed on target. We wove in pistachios, a little bit of volleyball, yeah, themes, a little bit of music, middle-grade fiction middle. This was the first podcast that I've ever conducted in the history of the world where we discussed middle-grade fiction. I appreciate it, sir. Thank you for the work you do.
John Ross 39:49
Thank you very much. He will have a good day. Bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Scott Allen 0:00
Okay, everybody, welcome back to the Phronesis podcast. Thanks for checking in wherever you are in the world today. fun conversation with Dr. John Ross this afternoon, or this morning or this evening, wherever you are, whatever time it is, for me, it's the afternoon when we're talking. But John started his career as a seventh-grade history teacher in Mesa, Arizona. From there, he worked as a producer of musical events and then as a project lead at one of the world's leading manufacturers before becoming a business professor at Indiana University Southeast campus. He has been researching and working with teams for more than a decade. His research and extraordinary teams and unity has since expanded into hope, knowledge acquisition, and retention. He holds a BA in organizational studies from Arizona State University, an MBA in finance from Drexel University, and a Ph.D. in management from New Mexico State University. And he has a book, it's called team unity. It's an incredible book. I listened to it this summer, John, now I traveled, I traveled with your thinking for many, many weeks, whether that was on an airplane, in my car, on my walks, your thinking was with me, and so I'm excited to jump into that today. But how awesome are Arizona and New Mexico? Let's start there. Pennsylvania is awesome too...
John Ross 1:23
How bout Philly? I mean, there are good people there. But uh, you know, the Southwest says it has its charms. I have to admit, though, I was ready to leave. Really? Yeah, yeah. So you know, you and I were in the Midwest. And here, if we were to get lost if our car were to break down, we could survive. Right like that. Like, it's beautiful. There's running water, like, everything's fine. Now, in the southwest, everything's trying to kill you. Like, it's just death everywhere. And it's, it's, it's brutal. And it's gotten so congested now. I mean, we lived 20 minutes away from Target. Or it was only four miles, like four miles took us 20 minutes ago with all the stoplights and everything here. Oh, yeah, it's nice there, we like it a lot. Very friendly people in both places. We've lived all over. Wonderful, wonderful country. But we're we like where we're at.
Scott Allen 2:16
Yeah, well, you know, if I recall correctly, there are like 11 exits in Mesa, Arizona. The next 11 exits are Mesa.
John Ross 2:26
Yeah. And then Phoenix is like, just go it will tell you when to stop. That's what the sign says, like, will tell you when you're out. You know, it's like, okay, all right. It's just so huge. It's great. Like, I own some stores out there. I own some electronic stores as well. And they're doing fantastic down there. So it's a great place. And I go down there regularly, but it's pieces time. Time. Yeah. Well, you know, that the country, I think we forget how awesome our country is just the landscape and the people and the different cultures. And so it's been a blast going with my family across and, and just experiencing it all?
Scott Allen 3:02
It is I mean because we were in New Mexico, I had not spent a lot of time in New Mike, I'd spent almost zero time in New Mexico. But boy, I mean, that state it in and of itself is fascinating with whether it's the food and the cuisine, or whether it's the history and the culture, whether it's the atomic bomb, whether it's the natural beauty of Bandelier National Monument, or white sands or Carlsbad Caverns, I mean, that's just it's a fascinating state. And then we stumbled upon pistachio land. We weren't expecting this, but they have incredible pistachios to boot, right?
John Ross 3:38
I love that you listed all of those things you'd like, but to top it off. Yeah, not many people go that route. Yeah, there are a lot of pistachios there. Lots of nuts. Lots of lots of pecans and walnuts there too. No, it's a beautiful place. We lived in Las Cruces. That's where New Mexico state is. So for all you listening right now that are thinking, oh, yeah, the Lobos? No, that's the other guys. So the ones in Albuquerque. Now we're the ones in Las Cruces, Las Cruces was wonderful to live in, kind of a smaller town feel. And we actually really love the diversity there. It was 60%, Hispanic, 20% other, and 20%. White. And we love that we hesitated moving out where we are now because they're like, Wow, this is different from where we used to live. It was beautiful culture, like just such a family-friendly culture, everything and every school, the whole family generations came out to support it. It was so nice to see just a good place all around fun.
Scott Allen 4:38
Well, I think you're right. I mean, we live in just a really wonderful, wonderful place. And there is there's so much whether it's the culture of diversity, or just the diversity in landscape because again, where you are now lots of green, flat out there. Everything's trying to kill you. Bless you. That's to survive the heat or the expansive space in between gas stations. It's there's a lot going on.
John Ross 5:09
Let's pause this and talk about the heat for a second. That everyone here is like, oh, Arizona is a dry heat. So no big deal. Yeah, well, when it's 122 degrees outside, and things inside your car are melting. It's hot, okay, like people that we like the papers keep track of a death toll of like, who died how many died from the heatwave this year? You don't get that anywhere else in the country. So for everyone that's thinking, Yeah, but it's not human. Well, it kills you. No one's ever died from humidity. Alright,
Scott Allen 5:41
So like, like, airplanes can't take off at a certain temperature.
John Ross 5:45
Like because their tires are literally melting. It's ripping up the runway like we got to, that doesn't happen in most of the country. So
Scott Allen 5:53
okay, I want to jump into this book Team Unity because I absolutely. We met last summer at the management and organizational behavior teaching Society Conference. You sat down, we had not met, but you sat down, and we started talking about your book, team unity. And then I actually came to one of your sessions. And that was an incredible experience. So right, I think as we were at the table sitting, I bought your book on Audible. And then it was from there that for a good portion of the summer. And I am not blowing smoke. For me, it is literally the best book on teams I've ever come across. And I've only read one, which was yours.
John Ross 6:34
well, do me a favor and leave that review on Amazon. That would be fantastic. No, no, I really appreciate that. It's great.
Scott Allen 6:41
It's just great. I mean, thank you for the work.
John Ross 6:46
You know, in the academic world, we publish journal articles. And while those are fun, I really enjoyed researching this book is my labor of love like this was I mean, a normal journal article five to 10,000 words ish this is I wrote it with 60,000 words, we trim 25,000 words, and I added 35,000 words. And so it's 70,000 words like it was it's way easier to publish an article for sure. But this was, I loved it so much. Obviously, I could go on for 70,000 words. So I have to contain myself a little bit. But this is it's truly a passion. You know, as I talk to business leaders and such, it's interesting their views on teams. And they're just like, oh, it's we have a good team. We have bad teams, whatever. It's like no, oh, my gosh, a team is so complex. It's more than just good and bad. And every team exists on a scale, and you can take it from a poor performing to a higher performer. Every team has that chance. Yeah, anyway, as I said,
Scott Allen 7:49
Well, no, no, take us through that. I mean, okay, so let's go kind of 50,000 feet, with your, your kind of general way of how you're approaching the topic. But then I would love to kind of drill down into each of the four primary areas a little bit. Obviously, we want to entice listeners so that they go out and buy team unity. Because again, and for listeners, it literally is the best book I've ever read on teams. It's just it's so well done. And it's easily digestible. And it just makes great intuitive sense. It's a wonderful, wonderful read. So I just want to give listeners, I want to give listeners a flavor of that work.
John Ross 8:29
Thank you very much. Now, before we get started talking about unity, it's important to understand there are two key parts that when I work with people, they have to understand that number one we've already touched, all teams can improve. Like it's not a light switch, every team can improve. And number two, it's not about talent. And there are many examples of that throughout sports. Basketball is a wonderful example. There are many super-stacked teams, handpick teams that aren't performing so well in basketball right now. And that's I realized that's a very controversial topic. And it will stray away from that, but there are so many examples where it's not all about talent. It's as far as everything being equal. So long as everything's equal, then it's all about how unified a team is. So once you understand that, then we can dive in. book starts off with what is unity? It's a word we throw out every president since JFK has talked about unifying the country, but I mean, you can ask 100 people, and no one will give you the same answer, and what that means everyone's gonna say, bring everyone together. Well, okay. Like, okay, so like, what does that mean? Like, how are you going to do it? You know, how are you going to comp like, like, what, what break that down for me? What does that look like? How do you know when everyone's together? So that's what we do in the book. We break it down. Essentially, it comes down to four components focus, direction, trust, and conflict.
Scott Allen 9:51
And now, when you say "we," you mean "I," correct? Or is there more than one of you up there?
John Ross 9:55
No, you're right. You know, when we talk, we often represent other people, in this case, I guess I'm just representing me.
Scott Allen 10:11
Take full ownership of this awesome work!
John Ross 10:16
It's been, there have been many people, there have been many people that have helped and so many interviews and so many teams I've worked with to bring this to pass. It's been wonderful. So, there is a big "we." I am the one that wrote it and put it on paper. Yes.
Scott Allen 10:31
So four areas, I interrupted you...
John Ross 10:34
Yeah, focus direction, trust in conflict. So focus, understanding, and commitment to the goal. So often and again, how this differs is that many other teams books, and there are some very famous teams books out there, they stop at just the goal. Okay, well, you can understand the goal and totally not be committed to it, right? You can write the best goal in the world and just be like, Okay, we have the best goal in the world. It's a SMART goal; check that box. But that doesn't mean you're going anywhere with that goal. It doesn't mean everyone's bought into the goal, right? So you got to get that commitment portion to the next part is direction. So the strategy is how you're going to reach that goal, right? And again, understanding and commitment to that. And this is all this breaks down into many further components. You gotta read the book, though. It's really. And then, and then trust is interesting. Trust is social trust. So this is a new construct that I developed through all of this research. What a lot of people default to is psychological safety. Amy Edmondson psychological safety. I think she was on your podcast recently.
Scott Allen 11:34
No, I have not. I've reached out to her people. And her okay...She's busy. And I wish I had good people. Yeah. And I need to get back to her. So So, we're working on it in the background, literally, as we speak. I'm not interviewing you. I'm just typing Amy Edmondson, trying to get her on the podcast, but no, yeah. So yeah, it's a goal. It's a goal.
John Ross 11:59
She was busy. So you got me. Okay.
Scott Allen 12:03
You said, Yes, right away, you don't have any people - I just emailed you!
John Ross 12:06
Yeah, you're like, oh, wow, this guy really wants this like, Wow, that's crazy. No, so Amy Edmondson does fantastic work on psychological safety. And some people take that out of context. So like, okay, so you feel safe at work? Yes, absolutely. You feel safe to be yourself. But social trust is psychological safety, and more social trust is, just because you can feel safe at work to be yourself does not mean that you feel safe to talk about topics on certain topics with your co-workers. And so think about that trust is that exchange, I'm going to talk about personal things, and you reciprocate by talking about personal things, and therefore we build that comfort between each other. That's vital that and that is separate from the social trust, for sure. To have that special feeling among your team. So social trust is critical, critical to reaching the highest level team, which I call an extraordinary team. But you don't need it for success. That's a common mistake. People say you know, you can, you can have a team and throw a bunch of resources at it and accomplish a goal, that's fine. But if you want the highest performing team, if you want the most efficient and fun team, because think about how fun it is, when you have high levels of social trust, then work on that work on improving your social trust. The last one is conflict. Conflict is more like, it's more like a warning. You know, it's like when you ask for directions, and someone says, okay, but don't go down this road. Right? Like this road is dangerous or the weather, it's raining outside, so be careful. So think of it like that, like you maximize the first three but conflict you're gonna minimize, and we're talking about the relational conflict here. Okay, so So oftentimes, people think of task conflict, like it's okay to disagree on how to do something that often results in a better product. Yeah. Because we can each add our own pieces, our own expertise, and all of a sudden, bam, it's better. It's improved, which is wonderful. Relational conflict is when two people just don't like each other. Yeah. I mean, that's obviously very, like minimalizing, what their relational conflict is, but, but as I refer to it, it's the vacuum of success. It is so critical to get rid of relational conflict. It's noticeable that the highest teams, extraordinary teams, don't have it, and the lowest performing teams have it tremendously. So as an example, in the book, there's a formula. So this book was written intentionally for people to be able to apply it immediately. So the formula in there is written in a way to show how important conflict is. So essentially, it's focused on direction plus two times stress, all of that divided by conflict, right? Yep. So that seems really powerful. So when I go present to these big rooms and everything, it never fails, that at least a few people in the room are like, wait, relational conflict if you just have a two or three and relational conflict, it devastates your score. Are you telling me that a three just because you have gossiping and backbiting in your team that it hurts your team performance that much your team unity? And the answer's yes. That's exactly what I'm saying. And it will devastate your results. Because think of it. If you have a group of people that won't work with another group of people, and they're trying to tear them down, the person that's trying to perform is now worried about these other schmoes over here that are trying to tear them down. And so now that social trust starts to decrease right? Now, all of a sudden, I'm not focused as focused on the goal. I'm not as focused on the strategy because now I'm more focused on self-preservation. Yep. Right now, I'm trying to improve my statutes. It's like, oh, no, they're trying to tear me down. I need my boss to make sure that then that he or she knows and I'm fantastic, right? Yeah. And so there's this constant battle. Oh, it's terrible. It's terrible.
Scott Allen 15:57
I was reading. Actually, I'm listening to a book by Ray Dalio right now called Principles. In that book, he highlights the work of Keegan, Robert Keegan. And I forget the exact phrasing. But Keegan says something like, you know, most people have two jobs, not just one. One is the actual work. And then the other one is managing people's impressions of the work. What you bring to the table, it's something to that effect. There's all this other stuff happening over here. That just eats away at us actually being able to do the work and knock it out of the park. Right. Oh, huge that relationship conflict?
John Ross 16:36
Absolutely. Absolutely. In fact, you're talking about everyone having two jobs. That's, so that's so relevant in today's time with virtual teams. Right. And, and everyone working virtually, I just spoke to a friend yesterday that said she wasn't feeling well. So she spent her whole day just keeping her mouse green. You know, just making sure she moved her mouse every three minutes so that her little icon stayed green, right? Because that's that impression management like, Oh, I'm busy. I'm busy because I hear that a lot from my students to let them just, it's very ancient. Raise your hand out there listening. If you've had a day where you're like, I'm just going to look busy because I'm not getting much work done today. Yes.
Scott Allen 17:15
Okay. So talk about the two times trust.
John Ross 17:18
Oh, two times trust. Okay. Good point. Okay, so, so focusing on the direction is the biggest part, right? So, so that part, you know, that's huge. We get those two things together. Fantastic. The two times trust is interesting because that signals that trust isn't as important. You can still have a great team, you can still have a team that's fully focused and full, like a ten and direction, but maybe you just aren't that familiar with each other. In fact, think of it like this. How many times have you worked with someone for five-plus years? And you barely know anything about them? You're cordial with them. You're nice to him. You say hi to them. Maybe you say oh, how was your weekend? You know, something like that. But you don't have that high level of social trust, in those scenarios. You can absolutely have a team that gets the job done. You can have a high-performing team, and there are scenarios but the two times trust it's Think of it like it's like the secret sauce or the or the in your case the pistachios in New Mexico, right? This is the top, like the hot fudge on an ice cream sundae, the whipped cream, right? This is it's a good Sunday without that stuff. New Mexico is great without pistachios, but man, it's so much better with pistachio it is it really truly is. It really truly is
Scott Allen 18:27
A giant pistachio out in front of pistachio land, which really welcomes you. And just a wonderful way.
John Ross 18:34
There are teeth marks on that statue. No, there are teeth marks on that Mustachio when people try to eat it. I'm sure it's just I hope it's just a joke. But there are teeth marks on that pistachio? Well, it's
Scott Allen 18:49
so funny because we were driving into Alamogordo. And all along, they say, the world's largest pistachio. So we were thinking we were going to drive in and see just large pistachio. And we didn't necessarily know that it was just going to be like a structure like concrete. You know? Yeah, the statue. We thought it was going to be real pistachio. And I think my daughter said something like, "I hate it when my imagination lets me down," because she was so bummed out. But it wasn't. It wasn't a real largest pistachio in the world. We were excited to see that. Right.
John Ross 19:22
Well, for all of my Las Cruces people out there. They have another largest they have the largest chili pepper. Oh, it's in front of one of the hotels. It's similar to if your daughter's listening right now. Don't let your imagination it is not real large chili pepper. It is made out of cement and everything, and it's red and green. But they are they're very proud of their chili peppers. Their hatched green chilies are phenomenal. And during this time of year, they're roasting everywhere, and you can go to any grocery store parking lot there roasting
Scott Allen 19:55
odds. You can get your meals I think they call it Christmas you can get red and If I'm not mistaken,
John Ross 20:01
Yes. In fact, there's a false rumor that's swirling around that every time you come into town or if you're new in town, they say, oh, every restaurant asks you, what, how do you like it red or green? There's a big debate. That's not true. There's no debate on it. Like, it's obviously green. That's what everyone likes. There's no debate. So I don't know if people are building up this big debate. It's not true. There are two sauces out there. They're both phenomenal, especially today. Just depends on where you go. But it's
Scott Allen 20:31
That's a great segue into a great segue segues into talking about some of the teams that you worked with because this is all based on your research. Talk about some teams that you worked with that were really doing it. Well, would you tell a couple of stories?
John Ross 20:49
That's a great question. So...
Scott Allen 20:52
...it was a great segue.
John Ross 20:55
It was a good segue. Great segue. Thank you very much, Scott. That was fantastic. Yeah, so there have been some phenomenal teams that I've worked with. One of the first ones I worked with was really fun. I actually was, was working with a band. Okay, high-performing collegiate band, I was there for a completely different reason. Yeah. And then I started talking to the conductor. And it was his idea. He said, Man, you know what, being in a band is like this, like teamwork. And I was like, I never thought of it like that. I mean, I'm interested in teams, but whatever. I'm here for something else. And then I started watching; I was like, Whoa, this is really good. Yeah. And there was a great opportunity there where I was able to start interviewing again; I was there for another reason. But I was like, Oh, dang, like, this is really good, right? I interviewed section leaders and how section leaders work with other section leaders and how conflict works with a team, if you have, if someone, a percussionist, who's normally in the back, if there are conflicts that they have with the clarinetists, then that can cause issues with their playing performance. Anyways, it was really cool. But this fan, this conductor, I should say, did a phenomenal job of getting him to work together and really brought them together, and actually had me train them in teamwork, which at the time, I mean, I was this was like nine years ago. So my research was barely even started at that point on the subject. But it was, it was a lot of fun to see their growth and to see them all pushing for this goal. There was an invitational in the Philippines, and they all wanted to go to that. You said, Okay, that's a big deal. So you're gonna have to perform at this level. They were on board. I mean, that's super cool. With that being said, another music group that actually just happened this past weekend, or sorry, this past month, I was volunteering with an acapella group. It was one of those things. I don't know if any of you have kids, and they ask for a volunteer, and you don't volunteer because you're like, well, not me. Someone else is going to jump on that. And then they said, Okay, no, we really need volunteers. Like no one signed up. It's like, okay, I'll go; I didn't know what to expect. I have the coolest kid. So I was happy to be there with my kid with my oldest son, but, but that was like, you know, it's acapella. I've seen, I've seen Pitch Perfect. One and two. So I'm kind of this is what I'm expecting. My imagination lets me down. I was expecting to sing just to break out that spontaneous
Scott Allen 23:13
journey, like really cool versions of Journey songs, right?
John Ross 23:17
I've seen a few episodes of Glee. And I'm like, I don't know. Like, I don't see anyone sad and walking in a melodic way or anything like that, but I'm there. And it was amazing to see these kids from all different walks of life. And they want to win state this year. They got third place last year. He was he was amazing. I mean, here you have these kids. These are high schoolers. What's most important to a high schooler for most high schoolers? social life, right? Like that's critical. Not here. I mean, here we are staying in cabins a far away from normal life, I guess. Many opportunities for them to hang out and goof off and everything. Nope. They were 100% focused. They were there. She broke down the strategy. This director is fantastic. broke down the strategy. Okay, guys, if you want to win state, here's what it takes; here's where we need to be. And here's how we're gonna get there. And they said, Let's do it. And then she had some trust exercises. It was really cool. But there was also this, I mean, this kind of as a joke, but it was also really cool to see a chaperone stew to start off as a completely new team. We didn't know what we were doing. We didn't even know why we were there. Really. I mean, we knew why we were there. But the director had had things in such great order that we were like, she doesn't even need us, like these kids aren't going to do anything because they love her and respect her so much. But we got together and said, but we're here, so why not do something, and we really pulled it together. In fact, even the director was like, I don't know what you guys did, but you guys are way more active, and you guys did all this extra stuff anyway. So those are some very recent ones. They are all centered around music. So as I talked about in the book, some of the worst performing teams I've ever worked with, and I won't say the companies, because that's not fair. No, no, no, I don't want to do that. But executive teams are the worst teams I've ever worked with. I worked with this team, where they knew the answer. Like these executives knew the answer, right? They're trying to save money, right? cutting costs and everything. They knew what the answer was, and the answer was to work together, right? Hey, if we ordered this part, then we can save this money because we can get, you know, all these crazy good discounts. And we can do this and that. And all we need is for you to sign off on it. And the other vice president saying no, no, I'm good. Do you know why? Because that makes you look good. Instead of me, everyone was vying for the next spot. Because once you're Vice President, that next spot, it's the C suite, right? And in this case, the salary jumped up to a million a year plus stock, less access to the private plane plus your own bathroom. Plus, two secretaries to admins. Yeah, yeah. And that's, yeah, it's pretty exciting. So I actually interviewed not only did I work with them, I went to the COO, and I shared my results, I actually use the formula in different ways. And I share my results. It's like, these are the lowest scores I've ever seen, like, your people don't like each other. Like they are not. They're not working together. And her response was, that doesn't surprise me. Yeah. And I knew this person. Well, like we had done. I know this sounds silly, but we had done many potlucks together. Okay. I'm a big fan of food. I started when I used to work at this corporation, I started a Thursday dessert potluck. So every Thursday when people bring in cookies and cakes, we just move off in a bit a worked its way up the chain to where I had executives coming out. And joining us as it turned into this wonderful networking opportunity. But it started off; it's just people baking cookies at work. So there's fun. But anyway, she said she wasn't surprised. Because she knows what the next spot means to them. Like, you know, these, like you don't get to be a vice president without being some sort of a type of personality, some sort of competitive person, right? You're, you're a doer, you're someone that is very intelligent, right? Like you've been chosen. And this is a multi-billion dollar organization that I was working with. And so that next step is a major resume boost, right? And it changes it will literally change your life. So instead of working together, which is what she said, she said, the person that I'm going to hire to replace me is the person that can unify everyone is the person that will actually pull people together, and they can get them to work because that's what my job is. It's herding cats. There's another example. This is my story. This came from one of my students. So I teach a graduate-level teams class in which unity plays a big part of that. But one of my students talked about volleyball. Have you ever thought about volleyball as being a team sport?
Scott Allen 28:00
I have. Yeah. Unless it's just the two of them. But I guess that's even...
John Ross 28:05
Yeah, wait, they start to work together. But
Scott Allen 28:09
No, totally. But it's two people a team. I mean, how do you define that? Okay,
John Ross 28:14
Well, the detriment that's what's so great about unity is that this book, not just book, The, you know, unity and everything. It's not just about teams; it's about relationships. So anytime you have two or more, I mean, it's marriage, right? It can help marriage; it can help sand volleyball teams. I mean, anytime you have a relationship, this is what it's all about. It's people working together. That's, and that's what we do, Scott, like, we're the science of people working together. So yep, it's cool. But anyway, this team, I never thought about volleyball. So I've used my, I've used this formula in many different industries, six different industries. I've used it in sports before, but mostly with basketball and football. I never thought about volleyball because volleyball kind of seems like independent contractors, right? Like, everyone's got their own place. And like, hey, when I do this, you do this, like, That's it like you just fulfill your role, and I just fulfill my role versus a basketball where it's constantly moving and shifting. And sometimes you're the leader because you're the one with the ball. Sometimes you're the one waiting for a pass. Sometimes you're the one just being a decoy, right? Like, there's so many constantly moving parts, and basketball and volleyball just seemed kind of static, you know, I mean, they're moving, but it's like, you know what I'm saying? I didn't know, and this is my ignorance from all of you out there listening that are going you're an idiot. Yes, yes. Yes.
Scott Allen 29:31
I did when it comes to volleyball I am.
John Ross 29:34
One of my students was from the number one collegiate women's volleyball team in the nation. Okay. The University of Louisville. And, and so she was like, oh, man, and she was sharing such wonderful, beautiful examples of these girls coming from all over the United States. They don't know each other, but they want to win. They're hyper-competitive, and they want to win, but everyone has their own way because, remember, they all come from different training, they all come from different coaches. And now they have to unite under one banner. And she and the coach has to say, everything you've learned before is wonderful. And you're going to use that. But you're going to do it in this way in this unified way. And it's, it was an amazing story to hear how she's able to pull people together. And she has to do this every year because her girls are constantly being recruited to go all sorts of different directions. Which is a major issue with those high-performing levels of college sports, right, is that they're constantly being pulled out. And these coaches have to reform every year. It's a fantastic story.
Scott Allen 30:37
So that was based on what you could tell an (ET) or an extraordinary team?
John Ross 30:41
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, everything that they did, again, every week, we would ask questions, and there were discussion posts and everything. And every week, she'd post a little bit more about that story. And so then I actually interviewed her after class. Like, after the class was over. I was like, Can I want to talk more I have more stories, and I should have done a podcast, but I have more stories. And I want to get out of here. Like I want to learn more about the soul volleyball team where she schooled me on that she was very enlightening. But yeah, beautiful story about coaches. And I mean, we see them as coaches. And we're like, yeah, coaches, you know, they correct how you play, we don't see them as team builders, a lot of times and people come to their team from all over and, and that's they have to, they have to work with all sorts of different personalities. Everyone wants to be a superstar, especially in today's time, in the name, image likeness, where you can, you can make great money in college. And so there's a lot of independent contractors out there that are out for themselves.
Scott Allen 31:43
I know that you are a huge fan of basketball. I mean, it just reminded me of that John Wooden story where one of the first things he did was teach them how to lace their shoes. Like, yeah, we're gonna start here and build.
John Ross 31:57
Absolutely. It's so it's so interesting. And so think about that in the workplace. Like, let's translate this to the workplace. So many times, we forget that our team members that were the leaders have come from all sorts of other leaders. And with that, they bring all sorts of baggage. Yep. And with that, they have baggage from their family. They have baggage from their other teams that they've been on, maybe they've been leaders before, and now they're there. They're one of your team members instead of the team's leader. I mean, there are so many things that you have to work with. And so uniting a group that comes from all different walks of life into a single banner is tough. Yeah, it's really tough. It's a science. Yeah.
Scott Allen 32:45
Well, it's hard enough to lead myself, much less a bunch of other folks who write that just makes it more complex.
John Ross 32:53
Yeah, it is very humbling to have to talk to someone on your team and go; I'm about to talk to you about something that I need to work on myself, right? Yeah,
Scott Allen 33:02
well, again, I just really appreciate the work; I'm going to put a link to the book in the show notes. And I think that'll be a really nice opportunity for people to learn a little bit more. Is there any other resource that you want to point people toward that would be of benefit for them? A website or Twitter handle? Or maybe you have a tic-tock page on teams?
John Ross 33:27
I do my team dances...Go to www.leader411.com; great little blog there. I just, you know, we're writers, we're authors. And so we just want to keep fresh. And these are little thoughts that I've had, but it's also some of the interviews I've done. So the next book that I'm writing, I wanted it to be everyday teams because so many of our books that are written today have just talked about Google, Amazon, Apple, Walmart, right? Like the D. Aw, that's that's pretty much what they talked about. I wanted to demonstrate that across the world. Fantastic. Teams are happening everywhere, unique, fantastic teams. And so some of my interviews are there, such as a world-famous magician. That's teamwork. I didn't know it was great to talk to him.
Scott Allen 34:15
Right. It's like volleyball.
John Ross 34:17
I didn't know, but it's a huge amount of teamwork. It was special, especially one of the things that he talks about, and you can read about it. A leader for one one.com is about social trust and how important that is. The Coast Guard. Why don't we talk about the Coast Guard.
Scott Allen 34:32
If you're gonna cut me in half. I need to trust you.
John Ross 34:36
That this is like a big deal, I need to know that if you lose my keys, I can get them back together.
Scott Allen 34:47
And your segue to the Coast Guard. I teach with two former rear admirals, they were in charge of the Great Lakes for the Coast Guard, and yeah, I mean, that is Wow, some of those stories.
John Ross 34:58
So when I started Like this whole, like, I'm gonna interview unique people. I started with him he was a good friend of mine again, we go to each other's houses, we have barbecues, our kids are great friends. So this is someone I've known for several years. And I said that I let me just take you out for lunch. By the way, if anyone wants a free lunch and has a good story to tell, that's how I pay my people back. I take him out to lunch. So, so I said, let me just take you out to lunch. And let's just talk I just want to hear some stories. He shared the most amazing story about getting up, where he's like jumping into Blackwater, and like swimming over and saving lives, and like, What the heck is happening right now? Like, why don't these stories never be in books, and they should be there? I have stories from an underwater archaeologist.
Scott Allen 35:42
Oh, wow. Like looking for Atlantis and stuff? Yeah, underwater archaeologist,
John Ross 35:46
Antarctic explorers. Nice. Yeah. I mean, there's a whole collection of them. You can look up some of them online. So yeah, that's, that's a great place to go.
Scott Allen 35:58
I love it. Okay, the final question of the day. What's something that you've been reading or listening to streaming that could have something to do with what we've just discussed? It could have nothing to do with what we just discussed. What's something that's caught your attention in recent weeks that listeners might be interested in?
John Ross 36:15
Okay. So I like all sorts of topics. I'm always about learning. So there are two I'm going to point out; okay, number one, this book blew my mind. I'm looking it up right now. It's called cultish. But I want to tell you, the author, Amanda Montell, Cultish is it's about language and the power of language and how cult leaders use language to subjugate their people. It sounds like a very dark book. But it actually only briefly, I shouldn't say. Briefly, only a small portion of the book talks about like the big cults. Most of the book talks about, like, the mediocre colts, like things that are maybe not that are in our lives. And I don't want to say him because I don't want to like give a bad rap. Amanda can do that. But there are things in our lives that are colts that are like mini colts that are cultish. So she talks about the language that they use to ensnare you and to make you feel bad if you try to leave. And it blew my mind. Like, oh, looks like
Scott Allen 37:15
my hairdresser. John would be your
John Ross 37:18
could be your hairdresser...
Scott Allen 37:20
Cuz I allowed when I leave my hairdresser. I don't know right now; I am intrigued...
John Ross 37:26
if you were to try to find a new hairdresser, and your hairdresser is like, you're gonna fail in life. If you find a new hairdresser. That would be cool, too.
Scott Allen 37:34
Yeah, that's we haven't gotten to that point yet. But I do feel bad. You know, if I'd be
John Ross 37:38
Wouldn't that be fun to find a hairdresser that confident to say, "your life will fail without me in it?" That's a really good hairstyle. So yeah. So that's one book, but because of the discussion, the other book, so I actually, I just really enjoy writing. And so I also write middle-grade fiction, because why not? Middle Grade is a specific genre. It's actually, if anyone would like to know, the hottest genre on the market right now. It goes from ages eight to 12. Okay. Okay, so these are so Harry Potter, the first few books of Harry Potter - middle-grade fiction. It's not about how many pages it is or how many words it is, but just the content. Right? Okay. So I write that as well. I have a book that is, hopefully, will be published here soon. It's a lot of fun to write. But I'm reading this other book on creativity. And look how fun this book is for those of you that this isn't a video. I'm just showing this to Scott, but it's called Wonder Book. And it's by Jeff VanderMeer. And it's about how to write creative fiction. But it's filled with, like, really cool illustrations and just fun little pieces of work. And so it just talks about like building a world.
Scott Allen 38:49
I love it. Okay, sir. Thank you so much for being with me today. I really, really appreciate it. Thanks for the good work that you do. I'm excited about this new book that is not middle-grade fiction, no offense on that one. That will be exciting to a faction of people. And I'll buy it from my daughters. But I'm excited about these everyday teams and people doing work that may not have some of that light shone on them but are doing incredible things in the world. And so I very, very much appreciate that. You'll come back. I appreciate it. Too much fun. We wandered in a very nice way. This was the most wandering episode ever. But we came back to things we stayed on target. We wove in pistachios, a little bit of volleyball, yeah, themes, a little bit of music, middle-grade fiction middle. This was the first podcast that I've ever conducted in the history of the world where we discussed middle-grade fiction. I appreciate it, sir. Thank you for the work you do.
John Ross 39:49
Thank you very much. He will have a good day. Bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
