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You get to discover who you really are when someone is courageous enough to share the truth with you.
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And then to let that operate.
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How you deliver the news, the empathy, the preparation that you all those things you mentioned can trump the what you actually say if you don't do those well.
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Empathy is important.
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We have to have that in order to try to better understand as best we can.
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I was sitting across from a supplier's leadership team, apologizing.
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Not for bad work, not for missed deadline, for how one of my people showed up in a meeting.
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The content of what was said, mostly right.
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The delivery?
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It damaged the relationship that I was responsible for.
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And I was the one cleaning it up.
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That's not the hard part.
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The hard part is what came next.
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Because the person I needed to talk to wasn't the underperformer.
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It wasn't the difficult employee.
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It was the strongest team lead.
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My closest ally, the person I was counting on.
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And the conversation I needed to have with him was one that I'd been coaching around for months.
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If you've ever known exactly what you needed to say to someone, you cared about, and kept finding reasons not to say it, this one's for you.
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I spent 30 years in corporate leadership making every mistake in the book, some of them twice.
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I'm Preston Poore, and if you're a leader who's ever felt in over your head but too proud to say it, you're in the right place.
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This is PQ.
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Welcome.
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The last episode was about holding someone accountable and learning to see the person inside the process.
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The tension between grace and accountability.
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We learned that the performance improvement plan doesn't have a field for dignity.
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You have to bring that yourself.
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But now we stay with the team.
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But the conversation shifts.
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We move from the underperformer to the person you're counting on.
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And the hard conversation gets harder when you actually like the person sitting across from you.
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Episode 15 Avoidance versus courage.
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The hard conversation isn't hard because you don't know what to say.
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It's hard because of who you're saying it to.
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With an underperformer, there's distance.
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The relationship is professional, and the feedback is documented.
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The process gives you structure.
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But when the person is someone you need, someone you're developing, someone you genuinely like, the stakes feel personal because they are.
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You tell yourself you're being patient, you're building trust first.
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You're waiting for the right moment.
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You're giving them time to figure it out on their own.
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All of that sounds wise, but none of it is courage.
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Courage isn't waiting until it's comfortable.
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Courage is having the conversation while it's still uncomfortable.
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Because the right moment doesn't arrive.
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You create it, or you watch the person you care about keep hitting a ceiling you could have helped them see.
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Most leaders will have the hard conversation with someone that they don't like.
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Few will have it with someone that they do.
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And that's the conversation that matters most.
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Looking back on how I handled some hard conversations with people I cared about, I exercised some poor judgment.
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I knew I needed to have a hard conversation with my best team lead.
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So I scheduled a one-on-one.
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Then I rescheduled it, then I rescheduled the reschedule.
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My calendar thought I was having a relationship with Outlook.
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I practiced the conversation in the car on the drive to work.
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Nailed it, perfect tone, clear, compassionate, direct.
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Then he walked into the room and I asked him about his weekend for 45 minutes.
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I told myself he probably already knows.
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He did not already know.
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But I felt better.
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Isn't that what leadership is all about?
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I read an article called How to Give Tough Feedback with Empathy, highlighted the whole thing, bookmarked it, sent it to a friend, never gave the feedback, but I was very well read on the subject.
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That last one kept me up at night.
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Here's the full story.
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I told you about inheriting a team I didn't choose.
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I told you about the person on that team that wasn't cutting it.
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Now let me tell you about the person that I was counting on.
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Let's call him Marcus.
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Marcus was smart, a connector, the kind of person who walked into a room and knew everybody's name, knew what they were working on, knew who needed what.
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He cared about people and they felt it.
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And I was trying to develop his leadership skills, and I liked working with him.
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More than that, I needed him.
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He was my strongest team lead and my closest ally on my team that didn't come with a lot of allies.
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But Marcus had a blind spot, and I could see it before he could.
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When things were calm, Marcus was excellent, prepared, thoughtful, collaborative.
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But when the stakes were up, when he felt strongly about something or felt like he wasn't being heard, his delivery changed.
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The passion that made him great in small rooms overwhelmed him in big ones.
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His timing would slip, his tone would escalate, and the message, which was usually right, got buried under the method.
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The first time I noticed it, I told myself it was a one-off.
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Tense meeting, strong emotions.
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It happens.
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The second time I noticed a pattern, and the third time other people were noticing too.
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The feedback started coming in from outside our team.
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A key supplier partner raised questions after a meeting where Marcus's delivery caught them off guard.
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Procurement flagged it.
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Design flagged it.
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Peers and other functions were saying the same thing but different ways.
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The substance of what Marcus was saying was usually on point, but the way he said it was costing him credibility with people who mattered.
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And then I was the one apologizing.
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I sat across from the suppliers' leadership team and took the responsibility for how the meeting had gone.
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Not because Marcus was wrong on the content, but because the delivery had damaged the relationship.
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And relationships were my responsibility.
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That's when I knew I couldn't coach around it anymore.
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I had to coach through it.
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So I sat down with Marcus and I didn't lead with the feedback.
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I asked him how he thought the meeting went.
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He had some reasons, good ones.
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Someone had asked a question that went unanswered and it frustrated him.
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Someone else interrupted him.
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He felt like the room was not listening.
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And he was probably right about all of it.
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But being right about the provocation doesn't make you right about the response.
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And that's what I had to say to him.
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I told him the feedback was consistent, that the timing of his comments was off, that the delivery was landing as unprofessional regardless of the content.
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And the people were forming opinions about him based on moments, not the actual capability.
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It wasn't a comfortable conversation.
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Marcus wasn't defensive exactly, but he pushed back.
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He pointed to the people who had provoked him.
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And he wanted me to address their behavior too.
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And I told him I would.
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But their behavior wasn't going to change the perception that was forming around him.
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Only he could do that.
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I asked him to reach out to the supplier leadership team and apologize.
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I coached him on restraint, on self-control, on identifying the trigger before it identifies you.
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Not everything that needs to be said needs to be said in that moment.
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Sometimes the courageous thing isn't speaking up, it's holding back until you say it in a way that people can actually hear.
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That conversation helped for a while.
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And then another situation would surface and the pattern would show up again.
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Different room, different trigger, same dynamic.
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And I'd have the conversation again.
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Not the same script, but the same message delivered a different way.
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This wasn't one hard conversation.
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It was a campaign of hard conversations.
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And every single one of them was uncomfortable.
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Because I liked Marcus.
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Because I needed Marcus.
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Because part of me wanted to just let it go and focus on the people who were easier to coach.
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But that would have been the coward's path.
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And Marcus deserved better than a leader who chose comfort over his development.
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Then Marcus interviewed for a director level role.
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Didn't get it.
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The feedback from senior leadership was direct.
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It lacks executive presence.
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The capability was there, but the credibility wasn't.
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And I watched someone I cared about hit a ceiling that I've been trying to help him see for months.
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That's when I stopped coaching in conversations and started coaching with curriculum.
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I bought an executive presence book.
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Not for Marcus to read on his own.
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I read it with him, chapter by chapter, discussion by discussion.
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We talked about perception, about the gap between intention and impact, and about how the room experiences you versus how you experience yourself.
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It was slow work, unglamorous, no single breakthrough moment.
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Just two people sitting across from each other, week after week, working through something that didn't matter.
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And Marcus started to shift.
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Not overnight, not because of one conversation, because of twenty.
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Because someone kept showing up and saying the hard thing when it would have been easier to say nothing.
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He learned to read the room before he spoke.
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He learned to choose his moment instead of letting the moment choose him.
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He started to distinguish between what needed to be said and what needed to be said right now.
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He got promoted, and I was proud of him.
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Not because of the title, but because I watched him do the work.
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And because I almost didn't have the first conversation that started at all.
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That's the thing about hard conversations.
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The outcome matters, but the outcome isn't the point.
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The conversation is the point.
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The willingness to sit across from someone that you care about and say the thing they don't want to hear, knowing it might cost you the relationship, knowing that they might push back, knowing you'll probably have to say it again next month, that's leadership.
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Not what comes after, the conversation itself.
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I almost waited too long and I almost let my need for Marcus as an ally to outweigh my responsibility to Marcus as a leader.
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And if I had, he'd still be hitting that ceiling.
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Sometimes the most loving thing you can do for someone is refuse to let them stay where they are.
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Most leaders I know go to church on Sunday and show up on Monday like they've never heard a word of it.
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I was one of them.
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The Disciple Leader Apprenticeship exists to close that gap.
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One-on-one discipleship that shapes how you actually lead, not just what you do.
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If you're tired of living two separate lives, visit PrestonPoor.com.
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Hey, it's Amy P.
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Kelly is in the house.
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Welcome to P Cube.
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Amy, glad you're here.
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Why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself?
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Thank you, Preston.
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I am Amy P.
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Kelly, and I do say the P in my name intentionally.
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It was when I got married to Jim Kelly.
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My maiden name was Amy Jankitis, which Jankitis is Lithuanian, and I'm Lithuanian and Swedish.
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Now, that that is just a story for you to hear.
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My the P stood for my middle name, Pauline, which is my grandmother's name.
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And when I met Mary Jim, I would introduce myself and people would say, nice to meet you, Kelly.
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So I went from people saying, Your name sounds like a disease, like bronchitis, laryngitis, hepatitis, to being memorable that way.
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To then I was wondering, am I not making an impression at all?
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And while it didn't bother me, I was thinking about I wanted to emphasize just the relationship and the communication when we met.
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So I was writing my name and I wrote it with the P and I looked at it and I was led to feel that that P in between the Amy and the Kelly, it just really stood for the power on the inside of each person to fulfill their purpose.
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And so it's the power on the inside of me.
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It's the power on the inside of you and everyone listening to fulfill the purpose that's inside of you from that power.
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And so the P is very significant to me and it aligns with what I do in HR, talent development, and just helping people and organizations fulfill their potential, pursue top performance.
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And we'll talk about some of that today through conversations and their role in that.
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Yeah, that's that's great.
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I love the P uh emphasis.
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I don't know if people know this.
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They might ask what uh P Cubed stands for, and uh it's actually not original, it's Preston Poor podcast.
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Uh so that's what that stands for.
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But I love the affection for P.
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It's funny, uh, my last name being Poor, uh, we did a little study on it, because I you gave a little bit of your background, your history on that.
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So just diverge for just a second, have fun with us.
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Uh we uh realized that our family came from Normandy, uh France, into England.
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And the last name was originally power.
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You mentioned the word power for P on it.
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And for somehow they changed it to poor over time.
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So how do you go from power to poor?
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I don't know.
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Then they gave me an E at the end.
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I have no idea, guys.
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So that's I don't know how that works out.
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But anyway, uh that's where we are in that.
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Well, I'm excited about you being here today.
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I know you've written on this subject.
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I think it's uh obviously something personal and professional to you.
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You have a passion about those are all three P words I just used too.
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How'd you like that?
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And yeah, I just ripped them off.
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I'll be here all night, chip your waitresses and your waiters.
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Um, but I want to ask you some real questions on this because I've experienced situations where I really, and I led with that in the stories where you just kind of not sure you want to have the conversation.
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Uh, but once you get into it and you realize if you look at it from a lens of developing somebody else and helping them uh or trying to solve something, I know you've got a lot of insight on that.
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So let's dive in.
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I was gonna ask you the first question here, uh, real quick, Amy, on this.
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Tell me about a hard conversation that you kept putting off uh with someone who you actually cared about.
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It's kind of like I opened in that.
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I cared about somebody, but I wanted to put it off.
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What actually made you finally have the conversation?
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Well, the first example of this, we'll we'll talk about a few.
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One that has happened to me multiple times, but I'm zeroing in on a specific instance of this was I work with executives and their teams a lot.
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And oftentimes the executive will say what this leader said to me.
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Come in, help my team.
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We're trying to do this thing, and I don't know what's going on.
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They're not performing the way I want.
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And it was them.
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It was that person.
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And there are so many different facets of that scenario because there's the confidentiality of the people that are telling me about some of the things the leader is doing.
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There's the true desire to diplomatically and kindly support the leader with a blind spot that they have, that um may be very sensitive area.
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And there's the trust and the time that it takes to really get to the point where you can have that type of conversation with someone, the relationship that's that's needed to do that well.
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And I didn't want to have it for a lot of reasons.
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I didn't want he scared me too, quite frankly, this particular leader.
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I, and that's why I chose this story when you asked me about this question.
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I was scared of him.
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I started to realize that I did not want to interact with him because of the things he said to me, because of the way he communicated, because of the way that I heard in his stories about the retaliatory nature of how he would go and behave.
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And uh that uh when we talk about this whole scenario, it led to why we did have a conversation.
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But it was and I've I noticed that that's in your story and in others, we get really, we get really scared.
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That's the number one thing of avoidance is you know, people are fearful of what's going to happen.
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Take me to the moment.
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Uh I did you have a conversation with him?
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Did you end up taking having that conversation?
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Okay, so take me to the moment.
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What are you sensing, feeling when you're sitting down or standing with that individual?
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:24.559
Tell us a little, set up the scenario and tell me a little bit about exactly what happened.
00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:30.399
I I do have a couple different things that I use in my work, more than a couple.
00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:39.039
And one was I knew I needed to connect with him a while before I corrected or tried attempted to correct.
00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:44.159
And uh I waited for the time that I thought was best.
00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:46.960
And I that was a balance about judgment.
00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:53.759
And I also had prepared, you know, the more we prepare, the less we have to repair in our through our conversations.
00:16:54.000 --> 00:17:01.919
And I was in person, which supporting distributed teams, I know not everyone has that opportunity.
00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:03.039
It is challenging.
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:09.599
I wanted that because of the degree to which I had seen this was a significant situation.
00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:11.039
It's why I chose the story.
00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:21.279
So we I offered to do a workshop uh complementary, and and I was in town for another client, and I, you know, created the right conditions.
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:23.920
I was doing my best to create the right conditions.
00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:44.240
And I asked in the beginning of the conversation, I said, just like when we talk about other aspects of business and our team development, this really is one of those conversations where I want us both to work on keeping this confidential, which I know people might think, gosh, when you have that buildup, they probably wonder, what's coming, Amy?
00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:45.039
You know, what's coming?
00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:52.799
I try not to do that to people because you don't want people to be sitting wondering if they need to put on a shoulder harness to have what's coming happen.
00:17:53.039 --> 00:18:03.599
And ultimately I had prepared sufficiently to share some examples that I thought were anonymized enough because I was concerned initially.
00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:08.079
I knew it would take some time for this to really sink in.
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:16.799
And I had a high sense of responsibility to protecting the people who were sharing examples because a lot of times I don't get to see the examples in person.
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:20.319
So we walked through uh a couple of those.
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:29.119
I didn't want to download too many at once because it's not a best practice to share, you know, and then this and then this and then this, these are the things.
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:35.440
But the theme of, you know, your your team is having trouble because of some of these types of things.
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:48.240
And in order for you and them to fulfill your mission and vision, then I wanted to share them with you because I think they're integral to the unity and the culture that you know you're committed to.
00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:50.319
So well positioned.
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:50.480
Yes.
00:18:50.799 --> 00:18:51.039
Yeah.
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:53.680
We we had a we had a good conversation.
00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:55.440
It wasn't great, I'll be honest.
00:18:55.599 --> 00:18:58.079
It it like your example, it wasn't one.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.160
It it became a few.
00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.640
And we worked together over time to his credit.
00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:15.920
I've had different people, as you may have in the audience may have, shut down or put up a barrier, block you out after you share something that maybe is uncomfortable for them.
00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:22.079
Um but knowing just like what you've talked about in other episodes, that comfort is very costly.
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:27.680
Um, maintaining a false harmony is a very, very costly thing.
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:28.079
Aaron Powell Sure.
00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:28.799
So that's great.
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:29.200
Thank you.
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:30.720
Uh thanks for the detail around all that.
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:40.240
What tell me about a little bit, what role does empathy play then as you're delivering that type of uh communication to the individual that's sitting across from you?
00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:42.880
I know, time after time, and you're the one delivering it.
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:44.400
What role does empathy play?
00:19:44.720 --> 00:19:59.839
Well, it is critical, and I love the work that is being done on empathy and make helping people understand the the difference between empathy and sympathy, you know, f and particularly by Brene Brown.
00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:01.359
Empathy is important.
00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:29.519
We have to have that in order to try to better understand as best we can someone else and where they are, and to not get into taking on all of their feelings in the circumstance, but being aware of how that caring for who the person is is going to impact their receptivity to the resolution for the communication you're attempting to have.
00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:36.319
So there's no doubt that it's an essential ingredient inside of effective and unifying communication.
00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:36.880
Yeah.
00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:41.599
We have to remember that we've got a person sitting across, regardless of what the news is we're about to deliver.
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:45.200
Sometimes I think about uh being even casting as a lawyer.
00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:51.519
Sometimes if you make a res uh a statement in court, you have to think about the different responses that you might get.
00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:58.480
And uh it's smart to play chess a little bit about that, thinking before you go in to anticipate what a response might be.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:00.160
And you got the response you got.
00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:05.200
Uh I've been in the chair before where somebody delivered that news to me uh as well.
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:06.799
So it's it's tough on both sides.
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:08.400
Oh, yeah, yeah, you too, huh?
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:11.680
So uh a common, common across, but it's great that we can learn from it.
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:13.839
Uh that's the important part uh that we're doing on that.
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:15.440
So really so we're really good.
00:21:15.599 --> 00:21:17.119
Um let's go to this next question.
00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:22.480
How do you tell the difference between patience and avoidance when the person is someone that you need?
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:30.240
So you're having maybe this tolerance with something going on and and patience where there's a line there that's saying, I just don't want to deal with it kind of thing.
00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:31.279
Where where's that line?
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:32.640
And I will go there.
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:52.960
I'd like to talk about one thing that you said that comes in between these two things that I, you know, when when it's a person you need and the role of empathy, two things about that is I believe and have seen that we you know I care about everyone I'm going to have a conversation with.
00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:58.640
I truly, and I know, and I think that that's important to the success of conversations, especially these.
00:21:58.720 --> 00:21:59.599
And often I'm telling.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.680
Managers or sharing with managers, people know when you believe in them or not.
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:14.559
Because if you come into a performance conversation, and I saw that in one of your previous episodes, and I loved it because it said there's no space for dignity on the PIP, the performance improvement plan.
00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:20.319
And so inherently, we've got to resurrect that belief for in someone.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:24.960
Everyone, they may not be, I understand the word, do you need them or not?
00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:33.519
But if it's about transaction or usury, you will not create the environment to have the best conversation, period.
00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:51.200
And the degree to which we're focused on what that person is going to get for us is going to create some problematic energy inside your conversation and probably disconnect the amount of empathy that's necessary to be successful.
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:59.759
And I do think that segues into your question about when do you know if it's patience or if it's just avoidance?
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:03.440
And it is a judgment call.
00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:18.400
But some of the things that help us make that judgment call, absolutely, in one of our books that I wrote with John Gordon called Difficult Conversations Don't Have to Be Difficult, the first element in our model is an S and it stands for small ego, big mission.
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:23.440
And it allows you to look at is this about me or is this about we?
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:48.000
And that was how you know you I know that is it about patience and I'm working toward how to best serve the person in the conversation, or is it about me, my hangups, what I want, what I need, what I think, you know, and by doing a little bit of inventorying, just starting with me or we, small ego, I want to have a big mission.
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:53.759
We you're in that relationship with that person for a bigger purpose, especially in the workplace.
00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:59.839
You have an agreed upon vision of where you're going, why you're going there, and they fit into that.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:10.720
And so those things, when it's impacting outside of just the me, um, I know that we can it, we can, we don't need to avoid.
00:24:10.880 --> 00:24:12.960
We need to figure out how to address it.
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:13.359
Yeah.
00:24:13.599 --> 00:24:20.640
And I can move beyond and I know that it's not about patience and it's not, it's not about me avoiding it.
00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:25.359
It's about choosing the right time and and then taking action appropriately.
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:26.319
Sure, sure.
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:27.839
And that's the idea of courage behind that.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:29.519
I love and I want to expand on something.
00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:38.240
One of the things I talk about often is this idea, a biblical or theological concept called imago day, which means somebody's made in the image of God.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:43.599
And so if you can see them, because you might think, okay, well, do you believe you're made in the image of God?
00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:46.319
And you say, Yeah, so I deserve respect and dignity.
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:56.079
Okay, well, if the person sitting across from you is also made in the image of God, regardless of whether they're difficult or the challenge or whatever, do you treat them with that same dignity and respect?
00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:00.400
And it's how you connect, and it really comes down to the heart and how you see people.
00:25:00.559 --> 00:25:02.880
Uh it took me a long time maybe to learn that.
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:04.480
It's not something I picked up right away.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:10.559
It's like I drank a Coke and all of a sudden I was uh, you know, running on a Mago day uh and figure that out.
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:18.400
Um But that's I think that's a key element for us as leaders is if we, from a faith perspective, can view people that way in those situations.
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:21.279
That's where the empathy piece plays in.
00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:24.400
But it's how we connect with them, what our heart motive is when we're in that situation.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:26.079
I think it ties into everything you just said.
00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:27.119
Would you agree?
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:28.880
I completely agree.
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:30.160
I was hoping you would.
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:45.440
One of my colleagues, you know, we we often talk, John and I, uh my teammate and co-author, a mentor to me, we've we've talked about this topic a lot because it's very important to us and we're committed and purposed to serve in this area.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:58.400
And one of the things is just about our thinking about conversations and what we call them, meaning if you call it a difficult conversation and you're heading toward it, you're like, I gotta go have this difficult conversation, you've impacted your thinking already.
00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:13.920
And when you were talking about the role of empathy and hard conversations, the teammate I was referencing, and I've heard this from other people, but it's very, very much a part of her work and her life, is that we don't call them hard conversations, we call them heart conversations.
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.079
And Pedro Krebs says that a lot.
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:24.640
And I've written it into one of my books about two business partners that are having a breakdown in their business and want to, you know, kind of break apart.
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:30.640
And the the end of the successful was when they decided to have a different type of conversation.
00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:33.920
Like you're bringing that empathy, and it's important.
00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:34.960
Yeah, that's good.
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.519
That's like the old phrase, have a heart-to-heart conversation, right?
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:38.400
So you can do that.
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:38.640
Yeah.
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:39.440
It's right there.
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:40.240
That's good.
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:41.200
Uh let's see.
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:43.440
Uh let me move to another one here quick.
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:49.119
Uh how have you uh ever had to say the same hard thing to the same person more than once?
00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:51.279
Have you ever had that opportunity to do that?
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:53.039
And what kept you going back?
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:57.920
It's this repetition that the like I shared in my story early on that I I kept having to go back.
00:26:58.000 --> 00:26:59.200
And it wasn't a negative thing.
00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:01.039
It was just from a developmental perspective.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:05.039
And it wasn't trying to be Chinese water torture either, but it was also the opportunity to do that.
00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:07.680
When did you have yourself in a situation?
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:10.640
You found yourself in a situation when you had to keep going back to somebody.
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:15.920
I don't know that I've ever had to have a more challenging conversation only once.
00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:17.119
I was thinking about that.
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:20.079
Does that mean I'm a failure?
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:22.400
Does that mean I'm a total failure?
00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:26.880
No, because this the things that have happened inside of that commitment.
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:38.160
Uh, because it takes, you know, truth is starting with, you know, facts and reality, and then transparency is a behavior that, you know, you reveal something and it takes time.
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:42.559
It takes time for people to accept it, and those times are different.
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:48.640
And then, you know, you're creating trust inside that time, an even deeper trust.
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:55.440
And so I don't, I couldn't think of one where there was um the magic conversation.
00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:18.559
I because the things that are hard and important to the individual and and the teams and the development have become a series of, and it doesn't, it hasn't been a hundred, but I did think whether it was my spouse and myself, him, whether it was my children, whether it was the many different leaders and teams, it wasn't one conversation.
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:23.039
And I think that that's important as we're working to serve people in this area.
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:29.039
We can't put all of our expectations like this is what I want out of this, and that it's going to happen.
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:33.200
I always say, bring your hope, you know, instead of just expectations.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:34.400
Hope's like helium.
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:38.240
It lifts people up and we need to lift them, not shut them down.
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:48.079
And it's a hard thing as an HR practitioner, talent development coach, because people say, I have a lot of expectations for my team and my relationships.
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:50.400
And I know we do, I do too.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:29:00.160
Um, when you come into a conversation oriented toward this is what I expect, it doesn't create the same level of receptivity.
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:03.359
It doesn't message empathy or signal empathy.
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:16.160
And so it we've got to expect some time and plan that into you're you're doing this one time and bringing your hope, your belief that things can get better.
00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:18.720
And it's not just about what you expect.
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:27.759
You never know what will open up inside your choice to communicate and support someone could be completely different than what you intended in the first place.
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:28.160
Yeah.
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:29.359
Yeah, so good.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:36.319
I uh we have a friend that reminds us constantly that expectations can be relationship killers.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:42.000
So if you have expectations of that person all the time and you're coming in with that, then that that kind of kills things.
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:45.119
And the other thing, this is the comedian in the in the back of my mind.
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:50.079
You know how I do the uh jokes for poor uh judgment on it, but you said hope is like helium.
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:55.599
When you said that, I had the Atlanta rhythm section going on in the back of my head singing, love is like oxygen.
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:58.640
So you could probably put that to the same words and have some fun with that song.
00:29:58.720 --> 00:29:59.440
But anyway, that's good.
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:00.000
I like that.
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:06.319
Hey, last question before I ask you if there's anything else you want to share with uh the the folks that are listening today.
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:09.839
Uh so much valuable, really, really good information today.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:15.119
Uh, what's the cost to the other person when you choose your comfort over their development?
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:16.319
What does it cost them?
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:22.319
I said it previously, so I want to emphasize the cost of false harmony is high.
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:25.119
It is unrealized potential.
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:32.480
It is delayed, you know, joy, it is delayed, you know, uh unity and fulfillment.
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:38.640
And that those costs cascade out to everyone around them.
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:43.519
But it starts with our commitment to help that person see that opportunity.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:50.720
So it is about unrealized potential and also the freedom from the thing that is causing them the challenge.
00:30:50.960 --> 00:31:04.160
And we all get into patterns, and it is unbelievable the um exponential return on unlocking someone from that pattern.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:10.400
And I know that you are going to share a scripture in a little bit.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:16.480
And there were two that I wanted to share that relate to what is the cost to the person.
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:22.960
And one of those things is from this Matthew 5-9 in the message.
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:28.640
It says, you are blessed when you can show people how to cooperate instead of compete or fight.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:32.960
That's when you discover who you really are and your place in God's family.
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:42.480
And what I mean about the cost is you get to discover who you really are when someone is courageous enough to share the truth with you and then to let that operate.
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:50.880
And I don't want to be a part of avoiding that or, you know, that that's a cost to them and their purpose.
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:57.839
And then in Philippians 2, 3 to 4, you know, it says, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:03.839
Rather, in humility, value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests, but each of you to the interests of others.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:18.880
And when we set our own interests aside, as you know, to serve someone in a conversation that could be challenging, we're also modeling um how to set someone else free from not being able to do that.
00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:24.880
So there's just a lot of unrealized potential on the table, which goes back to their own freedom.
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:31.119
And I agree with not having people be in bondage to that.
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:47.200
So there's a cost, and that is incalculable, really, uh, about what that if you don't take action out of some of the things we're talking about with preparation, empathy, and all in the different practices that will help, then you're leaving someone.
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:52.319
You can imagine just leaving them in jail when you could set them free or help set them free.
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:53.599
Yeah, that's so good.
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:58.720
That goes back and harkens to one of my leadership philosophies that I wrote a book on called How is Greater Than What?
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:08.240
And so how you deliver the news, the empathy, the the uh preparation that you all those things you mentioned uh can trump the what you actually say if you don't do those well.
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:10.880
And that will kill the kill the relationship.
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:11.920
So that's uh so good.
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:15.680
Amy, you've been awesome today, uh interview and I appreciate all the insights.
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:23.680
Is there anything else that you came on today that you thought, hey, I'd really love to share something about this or something crossed your mind that we didn't chat about today or you haven't talked about yet?
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:42.079
I would love for people to go and have the conversation that they might be avoiding and to do the things we've been encouraging to prepare, to prepare not only your own heart, um, but some of the things that you believe are going to help the other person receive the information.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:58.720
And I'd like people listening to think about the conversation they may have been avoiding, asking themselves if it's about themselves and their fear of it, or if it's about, you know, the the mission and vision and the teamwork of the relationship, and then go have the conversation.
00:33:58.799 --> 00:33:59.759
That's important to me.
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:00.960
So I hope that happens.
00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:03.920
Call to action, go have the conversation.
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:04.720
So, so good.
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:07.279
Hey, and where can people find more about you?
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:11.519
Find out more about what you're doing and and the things you're like the books and all that fun stuff.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:13.199
Or thinking where can they find out more?
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:16.800
I'd love for people to visit amiepkelly.com.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:21.039
So a m y py dot com.
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:25.360
And my latest book is called Work is Personal.
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:30.719
So if you'd like to hear about that, you can go to workispersonal book.com.
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:31.360
Love it.
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:32.719
Another P word personal.
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:33.199
Love it.
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:34.000
That's very good.
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:34.960
Amy P.
00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:36.480
Kelly, thanks for your time today.
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:38.639
I loved our interview and thanks for all of your insights.
00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:39.199
Take care.
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:40.480
Thank you, Preston.
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:41.679
Amy, thank you.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:44.559
Here's what keeps coming back to me as I'll listen to you.
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:49.039
What it means to be a faithful friend and what it costs.
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:53.119
There's a verse in Proverbs that I didn't appreciate until I lived it.
00:34:53.599 --> 00:35:01.199
Proverbs 27, 6 says, Faithful are the wombs of a friend, profuse are the kisses of an enemy.
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:03.679
Faithful are the wounds of a friend.
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:06.960
Not pleasant, not welcome, but faithful.
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:12.159
The word matters because it means the wound has a purpose.
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:17.760
It comes from someone who's close enough to see the problem and cares enough to say something about it.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:24.000
That's what the hard conversation is a wound delivered by a friend on purpose.
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:26.639
I could have kissed Marcus with compliments.
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:28.159
He'd earned plenty of them.
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:33.599
I could have focused on what he was doing well and hoped the blind spot corrected itself.
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:35.519
That's what most leaders do.
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:39.199
They praise the strengths and pray about the weaknesses.
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:44.000
And the person never grows because nobody loved them enough to wound them.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:46.800
The enemy's kisses are easier.
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:48.320
You're doing great.
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:49.519
Don't worry about it.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:50.960
They'll come around.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:53.199
All that sounds kind.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:57.760
It feels supportive, but it leaves the person exactly where they are.
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:01.119
And where they are has a ceiling that they can't see.
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:03.360
The friend's wound is harder.
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:05.199
The feedback is consistent.
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:07.920
The delivery is costing you credibility.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:12.400
You interviewed for the role, and they said you lack executive presence.
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:14.960
Every one of those conversations hurt.
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.119
Marcus didn't enjoy hearing them, and I didn't enjoy saying them.
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:20.559
But they were faithful.
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:25.519
They came from someone who was invested in his future, not just comfortable in the present.
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:27.679
And here's the part that convicted me.
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:29.760
I almost didn't deliver the wound.
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:31.599
I almost chose the kisses.
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:34.639
Because the kisses are easier on the leader too.
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:36.800
You don't risk the relationship.
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:38.480
You don't sit in discomfort.
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:40.320
You get to stay the good guy.
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:43.519
But the good guy who withholds truth isn't good.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:44.960
He's just comfortable.
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:47.440
And comfort isn't faithfulness.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.480
Twenty conversations later, Marcus got promoted.
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:58.239
Not because I wounded him, because I was faithful enough to keep showing up with the truth when it would have been easier to stop.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:00.880
The hard conversation is the wound.
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:04.400
Having it again and again is the faithfulness.
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:06.639
So what do you do with all this?
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:07.760
Three things.
00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:14.400
I wish that someone had said them to me before I spent months coaching around a blind spot instead of through it.
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:19.840
Number one, the conversation is the leadership, not what comes after it.
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:21.599
We celebrate the outcome.
00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:23.280
Marcus got promoted.
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:25.920
That's the story that everyone wants to hear.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:28.400
But the leadership didn't happen at the promotion.
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:32.880
It happened in the 20 uncomfortable conversations that nobody saw.
00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:36.480
The meetings where I said the hard thing and he pushed back.
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:43.519
The weeks where I wondered if it was working, the moments where I wanted to let it go because he was good enough as he was.
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:48.079
The conversation is the work, the outcome is just the receipt.
00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:51.519
Number two, courage isn't the absence of discomfort.
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:53.119
It's showing up because of it.
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:56.400
Every conversation with Marcus was uncomfortable.
00:37:56.800 --> 00:38:01.280
Not because I didn't know what to say, because I liked him, because I needed him.
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:09.760
Because telling someone you care about that they're getting in their own way feels like a betrayal, even when it's the most loyal thing that you can do.
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:13.840
If the conversation feels easy, you're probably not saying enough.
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:18.239
The discomfort is the signal that you're in the right territory.
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:26.960
And number three, the person you invest in the hardest may be the one who grows the most, but only if you say what they need to hear.
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:31.760
I could have invested in Marcus with praise, with opportunity, with trust.
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:33.440
I did all those things.
00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:36.719
But the investment that changed him was the truth.
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:42.960
Delivered directly, repeatedly, without softing it into something that he could dismiss.
00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:48.400
The people you care about the most deserve your honesty the most, not your silence.
00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:50.639
Avoidance feels like kindness.
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:51.599
It's not.
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:53.760
It's comfort dressed up as care.
00:38:54.320 --> 00:39:03.039
The hard conversation you're putting off with someone you like, someone you need, someone you're rooting for, that conversation is the most generous thing that you can offer them.
00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:04.000
Have it.
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:07.360
And if it doesn't land the first time, have it again.
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:08.880
That's not nagging.
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:10.559
That's faithfulness.
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:16.239
We just talked about having the hard conversation with someone who reports to you, someone you're developing.
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:20.400
But what happens when the conversation needs to go the other direction?
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:23.760
When the difficult person isn't below you on the org chart.
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:25.760
Episode 16.
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:28.000
Submission versus influence.
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:30.800
When your boss is the problem.
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:32.320
See you there.
00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:33.840
Well, that's a wrap.
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:39.119
Thanks for spending part of your day with me, and I know your time is valuable and your to-do list is long.
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:42.079
If this was helpful, share it with someone else who needs it.
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:44.079
Like it, comment, leave a review.
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:49.679
It helps more people find the show, and quite honestly, it makes me feel like I'm not just talking to myself in here.
00:39:50.079 --> 00:40:02.960
And if today is tension, hit home, maybe a little too close to home, and if you're tired of being one person on Sunday and someone else on Monday, check out the Disciple Leader Apprenticeship at Preston4.com.
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:10.639
Ten weeks, one hour a week, one conversation at time, no slides, no lectures, just real time.
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:13.840
And find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Instagram.
00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:15.679
Peace out be rockstar!
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.959
You get to discover who you really are when someone is courageous enough to share the truth with you.
00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:06.719
And then to let that operate.
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How you deliver the news, the empathy, the preparation that you all those things you mentioned can trump the what you actually say if you don't do those well.
00:00:14.640 --> 00:00:15.919
Empathy is important.
00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:22.160
We have to have that in order to try to better understand as best we can.
00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.480
I was sitting across from a supplier's leadership team, apologizing.
00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:32.880
Not for bad work, not for missed deadline, for how one of my people showed up in a meeting.
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:36.320
The content of what was said, mostly right.
00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:37.600
The delivery?
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It damaged the relationship that I was responsible for.
00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:43.039
And I was the one cleaning it up.
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That's not the hard part.
00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:46.399
The hard part is what came next.
00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:50.399
Because the person I needed to talk to wasn't the underperformer.
00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:52.479
It wasn't the difficult employee.
00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:54.880
It was the strongest team lead.
00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:58.960
My closest ally, the person I was counting on.
00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:04.799
And the conversation I needed to have with him was one that I'd been coaching around for months.
00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:13.439
If you've ever known exactly what you needed to say to someone, you cared about, and kept finding reasons not to say it, this one's for you.
00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:19.680
I spent 30 years in corporate leadership making every mistake in the book, some of them twice.
00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:26.319
I'm Preston Poore, and if you're a leader who's ever felt in over your head but too proud to say it, you're in the right place.
00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:28.159
This is PQ.
00:01:28.560 --> 00:01:29.280
Welcome.
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The last episode was about holding someone accountable and learning to see the person inside the process.
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The tension between grace and accountability.
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We learned that the performance improvement plan doesn't have a field for dignity.
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You have to bring that yourself.
00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:52.959
But now we stay with the team.
00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:54.959
But the conversation shifts.
00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:59.120
We move from the underperformer to the person you're counting on.
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And the hard conversation gets harder when you actually like the person sitting across from you.
00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:08.159
Episode 15 Avoidance versus courage.
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The hard conversation isn't hard because you don't know what to say.
00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:14.719
It's hard because of who you're saying it to.
00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:17.280
With an underperformer, there's distance.
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The relationship is professional, and the feedback is documented.
00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:23.199
The process gives you structure.
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But when the person is someone you need, someone you're developing, someone you genuinely like, the stakes feel personal because they are.
00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:35.759
You tell yourself you're being patient, you're building trust first.
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You're waiting for the right moment.
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You're giving them time to figure it out on their own.
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All of that sounds wise, but none of it is courage.
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Courage isn't waiting until it's comfortable.
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Courage is having the conversation while it's still uncomfortable.
00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:54.479
Because the right moment doesn't arrive.
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You create it, or you watch the person you care about keep hitting a ceiling you could have helped them see.
00:03:01.840 --> 00:03:05.599
Most leaders will have the hard conversation with someone that they don't like.
00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:08.240
Few will have it with someone that they do.
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And that's the conversation that matters most.
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Looking back on how I handled some hard conversations with people I cared about, I exercised some poor judgment.
00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:24.879
I knew I needed to have a hard conversation with my best team lead.
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So I scheduled a one-on-one.
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Then I rescheduled it, then I rescheduled the reschedule.
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My calendar thought I was having a relationship with Outlook.
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I practiced the conversation in the car on the drive to work.
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Nailed it, perfect tone, clear, compassionate, direct.
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Then he walked into the room and I asked him about his weekend for 45 minutes.
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I told myself he probably already knows.
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He did not already know.
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But I felt better.
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Isn't that what leadership is all about?
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I read an article called How to Give Tough Feedback with Empathy, highlighted the whole thing, bookmarked it, sent it to a friend, never gave the feedback, but I was very well read on the subject.
00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:13.919
That last one kept me up at night.
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Here's the full story.
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I told you about inheriting a team I didn't choose.
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I told you about the person on that team that wasn't cutting it.
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Now let me tell you about the person that I was counting on.
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Let's call him Marcus.
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Marcus was smart, a connector, the kind of person who walked into a room and knew everybody's name, knew what they were working on, knew who needed what.
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He cared about people and they felt it.
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And I was trying to develop his leadership skills, and I liked working with him.
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More than that, I needed him.
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He was my strongest team lead and my closest ally on my team that didn't come with a lot of allies.
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But Marcus had a blind spot, and I could see it before he could.
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When things were calm, Marcus was excellent, prepared, thoughtful, collaborative.
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But when the stakes were up, when he felt strongly about something or felt like he wasn't being heard, his delivery changed.
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The passion that made him great in small rooms overwhelmed him in big ones.
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His timing would slip, his tone would escalate, and the message, which was usually right, got buried under the method.
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The first time I noticed it, I told myself it was a one-off.
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Tense meeting, strong emotions.
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It happens.
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The second time I noticed a pattern, and the third time other people were noticing too.
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The feedback started coming in from outside our team.
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A key supplier partner raised questions after a meeting where Marcus's delivery caught them off guard.
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Procurement flagged it.
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Design flagged it.
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Peers and other functions were saying the same thing but different ways.
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The substance of what Marcus was saying was usually on point, but the way he said it was costing him credibility with people who mattered.
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And then I was the one apologizing.
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I sat across from the suppliers' leadership team and took the responsibility for how the meeting had gone.
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Not because Marcus was wrong on the content, but because the delivery had damaged the relationship.
00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:12.480
And relationships were my responsibility.
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That's when I knew I couldn't coach around it anymore.
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I had to coach through it.
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So I sat down with Marcus and I didn't lead with the feedback.
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I asked him how he thought the meeting went.
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He had some reasons, good ones.
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Someone had asked a question that went unanswered and it frustrated him.
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Someone else interrupted him.
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He felt like the room was not listening.
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And he was probably right about all of it.
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But being right about the provocation doesn't make you right about the response.
00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:43.040
And that's what I had to say to him.
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I told him the feedback was consistent, that the timing of his comments was off, that the delivery was landing as unprofessional regardless of the content.
00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:58.000
And the people were forming opinions about him based on moments, not the actual capability.
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It wasn't a comfortable conversation.
00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:04.319
Marcus wasn't defensive exactly, but he pushed back.
00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:06.800
He pointed to the people who had provoked him.
00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:09.600
And he wanted me to address their behavior too.
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And I told him I would.
00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:15.439
But their behavior wasn't going to change the perception that was forming around him.
00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:17.360
Only he could do that.
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I asked him to reach out to the supplier leadership team and apologize.
00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:28.399
I coached him on restraint, on self-control, on identifying the trigger before it identifies you.
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Not everything that needs to be said needs to be said in that moment.
00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:40.879
Sometimes the courageous thing isn't speaking up, it's holding back until you say it in a way that people can actually hear.
00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:43.839
That conversation helped for a while.
00:07:44.399 --> 00:07:48.319
And then another situation would surface and the pattern would show up again.
00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:52.000
Different room, different trigger, same dynamic.
00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:54.079
And I'd have the conversation again.
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Not the same script, but the same message delivered a different way.
00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:00.480
This wasn't one hard conversation.
00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:03.360
It was a campaign of hard conversations.
00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:06.399
And every single one of them was uncomfortable.
00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:08.079
Because I liked Marcus.
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Because I needed Marcus.
00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:15.920
Because part of me wanted to just let it go and focus on the people who were easier to coach.
00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:18.560
But that would have been the coward's path.
00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:23.120
And Marcus deserved better than a leader who chose comfort over his development.
00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:25.839
Then Marcus interviewed for a director level role.
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Didn't get it.
00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:29.839
The feedback from senior leadership was direct.
00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:32.000
It lacks executive presence.
00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.919
The capability was there, but the credibility wasn't.
00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:40.799
And I watched someone I cared about hit a ceiling that I've been trying to help him see for months.
00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:45.519
That's when I stopped coaching in conversations and started coaching with curriculum.
00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.159
I bought an executive presence book.
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Not for Marcus to read on his own.
00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:55.120
I read it with him, chapter by chapter, discussion by discussion.
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We talked about perception, about the gap between intention and impact, and about how the room experiences you versus how you experience yourself.
00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:09.840
It was slow work, unglamorous, no single breakthrough moment.
00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:15.200
Just two people sitting across from each other, week after week, working through something that didn't matter.
00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:17.039
And Marcus started to shift.
00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:21.440
Not overnight, not because of one conversation, because of twenty.
00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:26.559
Because someone kept showing up and saying the hard thing when it would have been easier to say nothing.
00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:29.279
He learned to read the room before he spoke.
00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:33.519
He learned to choose his moment instead of letting the moment choose him.
00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:39.440
He started to distinguish between what needed to be said and what needed to be said right now.
00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:41.919
He got promoted, and I was proud of him.
00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:45.679
Not because of the title, but because I watched him do the work.
00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:49.759
And because I almost didn't have the first conversation that started at all.
00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:52.159
That's the thing about hard conversations.
00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:55.039
The outcome matters, but the outcome isn't the point.
00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:57.120
The conversation is the point.
00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:11.759
The willingness to sit across from someone that you care about and say the thing they don't want to hear, knowing it might cost you the relationship, knowing that they might push back, knowing you'll probably have to say it again next month, that's leadership.
00:10:12.320 --> 00:10:15.679
Not what comes after, the conversation itself.
00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:23.840
I almost waited too long and I almost let my need for Marcus as an ally to outweigh my responsibility to Marcus as a leader.
00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.720
And if I had, he'd still be hitting that ceiling.
00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:32.159
Sometimes the most loving thing you can do for someone is refuse to let them stay where they are.
00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:38.159
Most leaders I know go to church on Sunday and show up on Monday like they've never heard a word of it.
00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:39.600
I was one of them.
00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:44.720
The Disciple Leader Apprenticeship exists to close that gap.
00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:50.000
One-on-one discipleship that shapes how you actually lead, not just what you do.
00:10:50.320 --> 00:10:55.679
If you're tired of living two separate lives, visit PrestonPoor.com.
00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:04.320
Hey, it's Amy P.
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Kelly is in the house.
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Welcome to P Cube.
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Amy, glad you're here.
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Why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself?
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Thank you, Preston.
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I am Amy P.
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Kelly, and I do say the P in my name intentionally.
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It was when I got married to Jim Kelly.
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My maiden name was Amy Jankitis, which Jankitis is Lithuanian, and I'm Lithuanian and Swedish.
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Now, that that is just a story for you to hear.
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My the P stood for my middle name, Pauline, which is my grandmother's name.
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And when I met Mary Jim, I would introduce myself and people would say, nice to meet you, Kelly.
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So I went from people saying, Your name sounds like a disease, like bronchitis, laryngitis, hepatitis, to being memorable that way.
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To then I was wondering, am I not making an impression at all?
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And while it didn't bother me, I was thinking about I wanted to emphasize just the relationship and the communication when we met.
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So I was writing my name and I wrote it with the P and I looked at it and I was led to feel that that P in between the Amy and the Kelly, it just really stood for the power on the inside of each person to fulfill their purpose.
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And so it's the power on the inside of me.
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It's the power on the inside of you and everyone listening to fulfill the purpose that's inside of you from that power.
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And so the P is very significant to me and it aligns with what I do in HR, talent development, and just helping people and organizations fulfill their potential, pursue top performance.
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And we'll talk about some of that today through conversations and their role in that.
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Yeah, that's that's great.
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I love the P uh emphasis.
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I don't know if people know this.
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They might ask what uh P Cubed stands for, and uh it's actually not original, it's Preston Poor podcast.
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Uh so that's what that stands for.
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But I love the affection for P.
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It's funny, uh, my last name being Poor, uh, we did a little study on it, because I you gave a little bit of your background, your history on that.
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So just diverge for just a second, have fun with us.
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Uh we uh realized that our family came from Normandy, uh France, into England.
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And the last name was originally power.
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You mentioned the word power for P on it.
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And for somehow they changed it to poor over time.
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So how do you go from power to poor?
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I don't know.
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Then they gave me an E at the end.
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I have no idea, guys.
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So that's I don't know how that works out.
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But anyway, uh that's where we are in that.
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Well, I'm excited about you being here today.
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I know you've written on this subject.
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I think it's uh obviously something personal and professional to you.
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You have a passion about those are all three P words I just used too.
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How'd you like that?
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And yeah, I just ripped them off.
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I'll be here all night, chip your waitresses and your waiters.
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Um, but I want to ask you some real questions on this because I've experienced situations where I really, and I led with that in the stories where you just kind of not sure you want to have the conversation.
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Uh, but once you get into it and you realize if you look at it from a lens of developing somebody else and helping them uh or trying to solve something, I know you've got a lot of insight on that.
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So let's dive in.
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I was gonna ask you the first question here, uh, real quick, Amy, on this.
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Tell me about a hard conversation that you kept putting off uh with someone who you actually cared about.
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It's kind of like I opened in that.
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I cared about somebody, but I wanted to put it off.
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What actually made you finally have the conversation?
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Well, the first example of this, we'll we'll talk about a few.
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One that has happened to me multiple times, but I'm zeroing in on a specific instance of this was I work with executives and their teams a lot.
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And oftentimes the executive will say what this leader said to me.
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Come in, help my team.
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We're trying to do this thing, and I don't know what's going on.
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They're not performing the way I want.
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And it was them.
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It was that person.
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And there are so many different facets of that scenario because there's the confidentiality of the people that are telling me about some of the things the leader is doing.
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There's the true desire to diplomatically and kindly support the leader with a blind spot that they have, that um may be very sensitive area.
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And there's the trust and the time that it takes to really get to the point where you can have that type of conversation with someone, the relationship that's that's needed to do that well.
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And I didn't want to have it for a lot of reasons.
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I didn't want he scared me too, quite frankly, this particular leader.
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I, and that's why I chose this story when you asked me about this question.
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I was scared of him.
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I started to realize that I did not want to interact with him because of the things he said to me, because of the way he communicated, because of the way that I heard in his stories about the retaliatory nature of how he would go and behave.
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And uh that uh when we talk about this whole scenario, it led to why we did have a conversation.
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But it was and I've I noticed that that's in your story and in others, we get really, we get really scared.
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That's the number one thing of avoidance is you know, people are fearful of what's going to happen.
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Take me to the moment.
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Uh I did you have a conversation with him?
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Did you end up taking having that conversation?
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Okay, so take me to the moment.
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What are you sensing, feeling when you're sitting down or standing with that individual?
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Tell us a little, set up the scenario and tell me a little bit about exactly what happened.
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I I do have a couple different things that I use in my work, more than a couple.
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And one was I knew I needed to connect with him a while before I corrected or tried attempted to correct.
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And uh I waited for the time that I thought was best.
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And I that was a balance about judgment.
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And I also had prepared, you know, the more we prepare, the less we have to repair in our through our conversations.
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And I was in person, which supporting distributed teams, I know not everyone has that opportunity.
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It is challenging.
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I wanted that because of the degree to which I had seen this was a significant situation.
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It's why I chose the story.
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So we I offered to do a workshop uh complementary, and and I was in town for another client, and I, you know, created the right conditions.
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I was doing my best to create the right conditions.
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And I asked in the beginning of the conversation, I said, just like when we talk about other aspects of business and our team development, this really is one of those conversations where I want us both to work on keeping this confidential, which I know people might think, gosh, when you have that buildup, they probably wonder, what's coming, Amy?
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You know, what's coming?
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I try not to do that to people because you don't want people to be sitting wondering if they need to put on a shoulder harness to have what's coming happen.
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And ultimately I had prepared sufficiently to share some examples that I thought were anonymized enough because I was concerned initially.
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I knew it would take some time for this to really sink in.
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And I had a high sense of responsibility to protecting the people who were sharing examples because a lot of times I don't get to see the examples in person.
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So we walked through uh a couple of those.
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I didn't want to download too many at once because it's not a best practice to share, you know, and then this and then this and then this, these are the things.
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But the theme of, you know, your your team is having trouble because of some of these types of things.
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And in order for you and them to fulfill your mission and vision, then I wanted to share them with you because I think they're integral to the unity and the culture that you know you're committed to.
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So well positioned.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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We we had a we had a good conversation.
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It wasn't great, I'll be honest.
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It it like your example, it wasn't one.
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It it became a few.
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And we worked together over time to his credit.
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I've had different people, as you may have in the audience may have, shut down or put up a barrier, block you out after you share something that maybe is uncomfortable for them.
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Um but knowing just like what you've talked about in other episodes, that comfort is very costly.
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Um, maintaining a false harmony is a very, very costly thing.
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Aaron Powell Sure.
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So that's great.
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Thank you.
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Uh thanks for the detail around all that.
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What tell me about a little bit, what role does empathy play then as you're delivering that type of uh communication to the individual that's sitting across from you?
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I know, time after time, and you're the one delivering it.
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What role does empathy play?
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Well, it is critical, and I love the work that is being done on empathy and make helping people understand the the difference between empathy and sympathy, you know, f and particularly by Brene Brown.
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Empathy is important.
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We have to have that in order to try to better understand as best we can someone else and where they are, and to not get into taking on all of their feelings in the circumstance, but being aware of how that caring for who the person is is going to impact their receptivity to the resolution for the communication you're attempting to have.
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So there's no doubt that it's an essential ingredient inside of effective and unifying communication.
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Yeah.
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We have to remember that we've got a person sitting across, regardless of what the news is we're about to deliver.
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Sometimes I think about uh being even casting as a lawyer.
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Sometimes if you make a res uh a statement in court, you have to think about the different responses that you might get.
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And uh it's smart to play chess a little bit about that, thinking before you go in to anticipate what a response might be.
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And you got the response you got.
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Uh I've been in the chair before where somebody delivered that news to me uh as well.
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So it's it's tough on both sides.
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Oh, yeah, yeah, you too, huh?
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So uh a common, common across, but it's great that we can learn from it.
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Uh that's the important part uh that we're doing on that.
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So really so we're really good.
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Um let's go to this next question.
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How do you tell the difference between patience and avoidance when the person is someone that you need?
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So you're having maybe this tolerance with something going on and and patience where there's a line there that's saying, I just don't want to deal with it kind of thing.
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Where where's that line?
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And I will go there.
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I'd like to talk about one thing that you said that comes in between these two things that I, you know, when when it's a person you need and the role of empathy, two things about that is I believe and have seen that we you know I care about everyone I'm going to have a conversation with.
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I truly, and I know, and I think that that's important to the success of conversations, especially these.
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And often I'm telling.
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Managers or sharing with managers, people know when you believe in them or not.
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Because if you come into a performance conversation, and I saw that in one of your previous episodes, and I loved it because it said there's no space for dignity on the PIP, the performance improvement plan.
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And so inherently, we've got to resurrect that belief for in someone.
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Everyone, they may not be, I understand the word, do you need them or not?
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But if it's about transaction or usury, you will not create the environment to have the best conversation, period.
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And the degree to which we're focused on what that person is going to get for us is going to create some problematic energy inside your conversation and probably disconnect the amount of empathy that's necessary to be successful.
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And I do think that segues into your question about when do you know if it's patience or if it's just avoidance?
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And it is a judgment call.
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But some of the things that help us make that judgment call, absolutely, in one of our books that I wrote with John Gordon called Difficult Conversations Don't Have to Be Difficult, the first element in our model is an S and it stands for small ego, big mission.
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And it allows you to look at is this about me or is this about we?
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And that was how you know you I know that is it about patience and I'm working toward how to best serve the person in the conversation, or is it about me, my hangups, what I want, what I need, what I think, you know, and by doing a little bit of inventorying, just starting with me or we, small ego, I want to have a big mission.
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We you're in that relationship with that person for a bigger purpose, especially in the workplace.
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You have an agreed upon vision of where you're going, why you're going there, and they fit into that.
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And so those things, when it's impacting outside of just the me, um, I know that we can it, we can, we don't need to avoid.
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We need to figure out how to address it.
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Yeah.
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And I can move beyond and I know that it's not about patience and it's not, it's not about me avoiding it.
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It's about choosing the right time and and then taking action appropriately.
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Sure, sure.
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And that's the idea of courage behind that.
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I love and I want to expand on something.
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One of the things I talk about often is this idea, a biblical or theological concept called imago day, which means somebody's made in the image of God.
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And so if you can see them, because you might think, okay, well, do you believe you're made in the image of God?
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And you say, Yeah, so I deserve respect and dignity.
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Okay, well, if the person sitting across from you is also made in the image of God, regardless of whether they're difficult or the challenge or whatever, do you treat them with that same dignity and respect?
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And it's how you connect, and it really comes down to the heart and how you see people.
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Uh it took me a long time maybe to learn that.
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It's not something I picked up right away.
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It's like I drank a Coke and all of a sudden I was uh, you know, running on a Mago day uh and figure that out.
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Um But that's I think that's a key element for us as leaders is if we, from a faith perspective, can view people that way in those situations.
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That's where the empathy piece plays in.
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But it's how we connect with them, what our heart motive is when we're in that situation.
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I think it ties into everything you just said.
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Would you agree?
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I completely agree.
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I was hoping you would.
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One of my colleagues, you know, we we often talk, John and I, uh my teammate and co-author, a mentor to me, we've we've talked about this topic a lot because it's very important to us and we're committed and purposed to serve in this area.
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And one of the things is just about our thinking about conversations and what we call them, meaning if you call it a difficult conversation and you're heading toward it, you're like, I gotta go have this difficult conversation, you've impacted your thinking already.
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And when you were talking about the role of empathy and hard conversations, the teammate I was referencing, and I've heard this from other people, but it's very, very much a part of her work and her life, is that we don't call them hard conversations, we call them heart conversations.
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And Pedro Krebs says that a lot.
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And I've written it into one of my books about two business partners that are having a breakdown in their business and want to, you know, kind of break apart.
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And the the end of the successful was when they decided to have a different type of conversation.
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Like you're bringing that empathy, and it's important.
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Yeah, that's good.
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That's like the old phrase, have a heart-to-heart conversation, right?
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So you can do that.
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Yeah.
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It's right there.
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That's good.
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:41.200
Uh let's see.
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Uh let me move to another one here quick.
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Uh how have you uh ever had to say the same hard thing to the same person more than once?
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Have you ever had that opportunity to do that?
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And what kept you going back?
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It's this repetition that the like I shared in my story early on that I I kept having to go back.
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And it wasn't a negative thing.
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It was just from a developmental perspective.
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And it wasn't trying to be Chinese water torture either, but it was also the opportunity to do that.
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When did you have yourself in a situation?
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You found yourself in a situation when you had to keep going back to somebody.
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I don't know that I've ever had to have a more challenging conversation only once.
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I was thinking about that.
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Does that mean I'm a failure?
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Does that mean I'm a total failure?
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No, because this the things that have happened inside of that commitment.
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:38.160
Uh, because it takes, you know, truth is starting with, you know, facts and reality, and then transparency is a behavior that, you know, you reveal something and it takes time.
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It takes time for people to accept it, and those times are different.
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And then, you know, you're creating trust inside that time, an even deeper trust.
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And so I don't, I couldn't think of one where there was um the magic conversation.
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I because the things that are hard and important to the individual and and the teams and the development have become a series of, and it doesn't, it hasn't been a hundred, but I did think whether it was my spouse and myself, him, whether it was my children, whether it was the many different leaders and teams, it wasn't one conversation.
00:28:18.799 --> 00:28:23.039
And I think that that's important as we're working to serve people in this area.
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We can't put all of our expectations like this is what I want out of this, and that it's going to happen.
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I always say, bring your hope, you know, instead of just expectations.
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Hope's like helium.
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It lifts people up and we need to lift them, not shut them down.
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:48.079
And it's a hard thing as an HR practitioner, talent development coach, because people say, I have a lot of expectations for my team and my relationships.
00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:50.400
And I know we do, I do too.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:29:00.160
Um, when you come into a conversation oriented toward this is what I expect, it doesn't create the same level of receptivity.
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:03.359
It doesn't message empathy or signal empathy.
00:29:03.519 --> 00:29:16.160
And so it we've got to expect some time and plan that into you're you're doing this one time and bringing your hope, your belief that things can get better.
00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:18.720
And it's not just about what you expect.
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:27.759
You never know what will open up inside your choice to communicate and support someone could be completely different than what you intended in the first place.
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:28.160
Yeah.
00:29:28.480 --> 00:29:29.359
Yeah, so good.
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:36.319
I uh we have a friend that reminds us constantly that expectations can be relationship killers.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:42.000
So if you have expectations of that person all the time and you're coming in with that, then that that kind of kills things.
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:45.119
And the other thing, this is the comedian in the in the back of my mind.
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:50.079
You know how I do the uh jokes for poor uh judgment on it, but you said hope is like helium.
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:55.599
When you said that, I had the Atlanta rhythm section going on in the back of my head singing, love is like oxygen.
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:58.640
So you could probably put that to the same words and have some fun with that song.
00:29:58.720 --> 00:29:59.440
But anyway, that's good.
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:00.000
I like that.
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:06.319
Hey, last question before I ask you if there's anything else you want to share with uh the the folks that are listening today.
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:09.839
Uh so much valuable, really, really good information today.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:15.119
Uh, what's the cost to the other person when you choose your comfort over their development?
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:16.319
What does it cost them?
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:22.319
I said it previously, so I want to emphasize the cost of false harmony is high.
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:25.119
It is unrealized potential.
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:32.480
It is delayed, you know, joy, it is delayed, you know, uh unity and fulfillment.
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:38.640
And that those costs cascade out to everyone around them.
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:43.519
But it starts with our commitment to help that person see that opportunity.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:50.720
So it is about unrealized potential and also the freedom from the thing that is causing them the challenge.
00:30:50.960 --> 00:31:04.160
And we all get into patterns, and it is unbelievable the um exponential return on unlocking someone from that pattern.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:10.400
And I know that you are going to share a scripture in a little bit.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:16.480
And there were two that I wanted to share that relate to what is the cost to the person.
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:22.960
And one of those things is from this Matthew 5-9 in the message.
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:28.640
It says, you are blessed when you can show people how to cooperate instead of compete or fight.
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:32.960
That's when you discover who you really are and your place in God's family.
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:42.480
And what I mean about the cost is you get to discover who you really are when someone is courageous enough to share the truth with you and then to let that operate.
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:50.880
And I don't want to be a part of avoiding that or, you know, that that's a cost to them and their purpose.
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:57.839
And then in Philippians 2, 3 to 4, you know, it says, do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:03.839
Rather, in humility, value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests, but each of you to the interests of others.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:18.880
And when we set our own interests aside, as you know, to serve someone in a conversation that could be challenging, we're also modeling um how to set someone else free from not being able to do that.
00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:24.880
So there's just a lot of unrealized potential on the table, which goes back to their own freedom.
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:31.119
And I agree with not having people be in bondage to that.
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:47.200
So there's a cost, and that is incalculable, really, uh, about what that if you don't take action out of some of the things we're talking about with preparation, empathy, and all in the different practices that will help, then you're leaving someone.
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:52.319
You can imagine just leaving them in jail when you could set them free or help set them free.
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:53.599
Yeah, that's so good.
00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:58.720
That goes back and harkens to one of my leadership philosophies that I wrote a book on called How is Greater Than What?
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:08.240
And so how you deliver the news, the empathy, the the uh preparation that you all those things you mentioned uh can trump the what you actually say if you don't do those well.
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:10.880
And that will kill the kill the relationship.
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:11.920
So that's uh so good.
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:15.680
Amy, you've been awesome today, uh interview and I appreciate all the insights.
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:23.680
Is there anything else that you came on today that you thought, hey, I'd really love to share something about this or something crossed your mind that we didn't chat about today or you haven't talked about yet?
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:42.079
I would love for people to go and have the conversation that they might be avoiding and to do the things we've been encouraging to prepare, to prepare not only your own heart, um, but some of the things that you believe are going to help the other person receive the information.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:58.720
And I'd like people listening to think about the conversation they may have been avoiding, asking themselves if it's about themselves and their fear of it, or if it's about, you know, the the mission and vision and the teamwork of the relationship, and then go have the conversation.
00:33:58.799 --> 00:33:59.759
That's important to me.
00:33:59.839 --> 00:34:00.960
So I hope that happens.
00:34:01.359 --> 00:34:03.920
Call to action, go have the conversation.
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:04.720
So, so good.
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:07.279
Hey, and where can people find more about you?
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:11.519
Find out more about what you're doing and and the things you're like the books and all that fun stuff.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:13.199
Or thinking where can they find out more?
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:16.800
I'd love for people to visit amiepkelly.com.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:21.039
So a m y py dot com.
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:25.360
And my latest book is called Work is Personal.
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:30.719
So if you'd like to hear about that, you can go to workispersonal book.com.
00:34:31.039 --> 00:34:31.360
Love it.
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:32.719
Another P word personal.
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:33.199
Love it.
00:34:33.280 --> 00:34:34.000
That's very good.
00:34:34.320 --> 00:34:34.960
Amy P.
00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:36.480
Kelly, thanks for your time today.
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:38.639
I loved our interview and thanks for all of your insights.
00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:39.199
Take care.
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:40.480
Thank you, Preston.
00:34:40.719 --> 00:34:41.679
Amy, thank you.
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:44.559
Here's what keeps coming back to me as I'll listen to you.
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:49.039
What it means to be a faithful friend and what it costs.
00:34:49.519 --> 00:34:53.119
There's a verse in Proverbs that I didn't appreciate until I lived it.
00:34:53.599 --> 00:35:01.199
Proverbs 27, 6 says, Faithful are the wombs of a friend, profuse are the kisses of an enemy.
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:03.679
Faithful are the wounds of a friend.
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:06.960
Not pleasant, not welcome, but faithful.
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:12.159
The word matters because it means the wound has a purpose.
00:35:12.559 --> 00:35:17.760
It comes from someone who's close enough to see the problem and cares enough to say something about it.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:24.000
That's what the hard conversation is a wound delivered by a friend on purpose.
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:26.639
I could have kissed Marcus with compliments.
00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:28.159
He'd earned plenty of them.
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:33.599
I could have focused on what he was doing well and hoped the blind spot corrected itself.
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:35.519
That's what most leaders do.
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:39.199
They praise the strengths and pray about the weaknesses.
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:44.000
And the person never grows because nobody loved them enough to wound them.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:46.800
The enemy's kisses are easier.
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:48.320
You're doing great.
00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:49.519
Don't worry about it.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:50.960
They'll come around.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:53.199
All that sounds kind.
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:57.760
It feels supportive, but it leaves the person exactly where they are.
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:01.119
And where they are has a ceiling that they can't see.
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:03.360
The friend's wound is harder.
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:05.199
The feedback is consistent.
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:07.920
The delivery is costing you credibility.
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:12.400
You interviewed for the role, and they said you lack executive presence.
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:14.960
Every one of those conversations hurt.
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.119
Marcus didn't enjoy hearing them, and I didn't enjoy saying them.
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:20.559
But they were faithful.
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:25.519
They came from someone who was invested in his future, not just comfortable in the present.
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:27.679
And here's the part that convicted me.
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:29.760
I almost didn't deliver the wound.
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:31.599
I almost chose the kisses.
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:34.639
Because the kisses are easier on the leader too.
00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:36.800
You don't risk the relationship.
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:38.480
You don't sit in discomfort.
00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:40.320
You get to stay the good guy.
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:43.519
But the good guy who withholds truth isn't good.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:44.960
He's just comfortable.
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:47.440
And comfort isn't faithfulness.
00:36:48.000 --> 00:36:50.480
Twenty conversations later, Marcus got promoted.
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:58.239
Not because I wounded him, because I was faithful enough to keep showing up with the truth when it would have been easier to stop.
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:00.880
The hard conversation is the wound.
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:04.400
Having it again and again is the faithfulness.
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:06.639
So what do you do with all this?
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:07.760
Three things.
00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:14.400
I wish that someone had said them to me before I spent months coaching around a blind spot instead of through it.
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:19.840
Number one, the conversation is the leadership, not what comes after it.
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:21.599
We celebrate the outcome.
00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:23.280
Marcus got promoted.
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:25.920
That's the story that everyone wants to hear.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:28.400
But the leadership didn't happen at the promotion.
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:32.880
It happened in the 20 uncomfortable conversations that nobody saw.
00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:36.480
The meetings where I said the hard thing and he pushed back.
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:43.519
The weeks where I wondered if it was working, the moments where I wanted to let it go because he was good enough as he was.
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:48.079
The conversation is the work, the outcome is just the receipt.
00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:51.519
Number two, courage isn't the absence of discomfort.
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:53.119
It's showing up because of it.
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:56.400
Every conversation with Marcus was uncomfortable.
00:37:56.800 --> 00:38:01.280
Not because I didn't know what to say, because I liked him, because I needed him.
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:09.760
Because telling someone you care about that they're getting in their own way feels like a betrayal, even when it's the most loyal thing that you can do.
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:13.840
If the conversation feels easy, you're probably not saying enough.
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:18.239
The discomfort is the signal that you're in the right territory.
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:26.960
And number three, the person you invest in the hardest may be the one who grows the most, but only if you say what they need to hear.
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:31.760
I could have invested in Marcus with praise, with opportunity, with trust.
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:33.440
I did all those things.
00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:36.719
But the investment that changed him was the truth.
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:42.960
Delivered directly, repeatedly, without softing it into something that he could dismiss.
00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:48.400
The people you care about the most deserve your honesty the most, not your silence.
00:38:49.119 --> 00:38:50.639
Avoidance feels like kindness.
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:51.599
It's not.
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:53.760
It's comfort dressed up as care.
00:38:54.320 --> 00:39:03.039
The hard conversation you're putting off with someone you like, someone you need, someone you're rooting for, that conversation is the most generous thing that you can offer them.
00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:04.000
Have it.
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:07.360
And if it doesn't land the first time, have it again.
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:08.880
That's not nagging.
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:10.559
That's faithfulness.
00:39:11.199 --> 00:39:16.239
We just talked about having the hard conversation with someone who reports to you, someone you're developing.
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:20.400
But what happens when the conversation needs to go the other direction?
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:23.760
When the difficult person isn't below you on the org chart.
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:25.760
Episode 16.
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:28.000
Submission versus influence.
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:30.800
When your boss is the problem.
00:39:31.360 --> 00:39:32.320
See you there.
00:39:32.719 --> 00:39:33.840
Well, that's a wrap.
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:39.119
Thanks for spending part of your day with me, and I know your time is valuable and your to-do list is long.
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:42.079
If this was helpful, share it with someone else who needs it.
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:44.079
Like it, comment, leave a review.
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:49.679
It helps more people find the show, and quite honestly, it makes me feel like I'm not just talking to myself in here.
00:39:50.079 --> 00:40:02.960
And if today is tension, hit home, maybe a little too close to home, and if you're tired of being one person on Sunday and someone else on Monday, check out the Disciple Leader Apprenticeship at Preston4.com.
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:10.639
Ten weeks, one hour a week, one conversation at time, no slides, no lectures, just real time.
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:13.840
And find me on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Instagram.
00:40:14.079 --> 00:40:15.679
Peace out be rockstar!
