Student Support in Medical Education

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Hello and welcome to our latest

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podcast.

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This week we're going to talk about

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student support which obviously is a

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very important subject to

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provide you with a bit more

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information and particularly

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things to look out for and

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how to help students because

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obviously it's very important that

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we do that during their time at

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university.

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So I'm joined today with

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three guests.

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So Nada, do you want to introduce

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yourself?

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Hi, I'm Nada Maria.

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I'm a GP during

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the daytime, but I'm also one of the

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clinical senior lecturers

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with the university.

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I'm the GP

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lead for

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year one GP teaching,

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and I'm also the deputy lead

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for student support.

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Hi, I'm Wendy Lowe

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and I'm the lead for the

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School of Medicine, Medical Sciences

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and Nutrition Student Support.

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So I work full time in this role

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and my background is as

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a healthcare practitioner,

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I was a physiotherapist many years

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ago.

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Hi, I'm Lucy.

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I am a student support

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advisor. I work in the main campus.

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I focus mainly on

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students with disabilities

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implementing adjustments for their

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studies.

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Thanks so much.

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So student support, really important

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subject, and I think

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everyone is aware we hear about it

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in meetings that we go to about

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how there has been much more of an

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increase in terms of students

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needing support.

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And that can vary, I know,

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a wide range of things.

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So it would be useful maybe to

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start with what are the sort of

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areas where we're having

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to particularly help students

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or things to look out for

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and what areas.

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Issues.

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Do you think are becoming more and

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more prevalent?

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From my role, I'm noticing.

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Increase in adjustments for

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studies, especially in relation to

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neurodivergence, so there's an

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increase in students with ADHD, ASC,

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your specific learning differences

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as well, and it's

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a prevailing sort of

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focal point that I'm

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picking up on.

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I would say within the

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medical school as well,

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we've seen probably significant

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increase in the number of students

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that are reaching out for

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mental health support as well.

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And this has been probably

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a gradual increase over the

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years and we know very well that

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mental health difficulties

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are more prevalent amongst medical

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students and.

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I suspect over the last

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few years there has probably been a

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significant increase in those that

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are reaching out for help.

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I completely agree with you there.

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How does that vary in terms of

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linking with the main university?

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With the SMMSM student

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support we would support

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students with their pastoral

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and academic needs and

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so we liaise closely with the

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main student support with their

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adjustments and provisions and that

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would be one of the key roles

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part of our roles and

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as Lucy said there's just been an

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increased demand over the last few

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years for that.

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We also offer like individual

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students or appointments for

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signposting and advice around mental

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health issues and anxiety,

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which is probably the biggest issue,

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I'd say, in the medical school

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that's been growing

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since the pandemic, at

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least since I've been here

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and providing advice,

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tips, support, resources

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on how to cope with that.

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And I think because

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you know, both Nada and I and our

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colleague, Dr. Pete McKenzie,

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who's also GP, have

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an understanding of what it's like

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to work in the NHS.

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We have a very applied

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sense of support and

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advice that we would, you know

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provide to students.

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Just really as well to add, I would

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say there's probably been

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significant increase as well in

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matters related to educational

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governance.

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And particularly within the

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medical school, we've been

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supporting an

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increase in number of students that

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are finding themselves having

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to attend fitness practise hearings

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and issues

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that lead to professionalism and

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so on.

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And I would say there has been

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probably a significant increase of

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that as well over the years.

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Because I think that is one of the

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differences, isn't it, between, I

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mean, there's overall student

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support.

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And then, but some of the student

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support is quite specific to

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medicine and medical students.

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And it's sometimes quite difficult

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to get your head around

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that, if you know what I mean.

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One of the ways I...

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Always describe it is like

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Lucy and her team and the

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main student support provide a

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massive breadth of services so

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they can address any issues

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related to immigration

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or housing accommodation

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or counselling or

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chaplaincy or as

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well as the disability adjustments.

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So they've got a huge range of

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financial advice you name it they

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either know about or know where to

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send people to.

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Whereas I think that we,

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in the SMMSN, students

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provide more

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nuanced, in-depth

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advice because we've all worked in

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the healthcare and in the NHS.

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We know what it's like to

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go around the wards and attend ward

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rounds and what students might need

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to be able to do that.

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So we can provide more

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tailored advice in relation

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to that specific working context

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and what the students are walking

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into now, You know, that.

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The NHS has changed

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and it's becoming more

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and more in demand

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and I think quite stressful

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as a working place to walk

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into.

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And it's those contextual factors

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that I think are important along

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with funding and financial crisis

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that students are also dealing with.

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There's a whole lot of different

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threads that pull in, but if

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you want to take time at that.

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How to understand it, I'd say the

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main student support is the breadth

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and we go down into the depth

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of the issue.

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That's really helpful.

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One thing I would like to pick up on

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is reasonable adjustments because

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that can sometimes be a

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bit of a bone of contention about

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what is maybe a reasonable

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adjustment if you're, and

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I'll be a little bit controversial

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here, doing an arts degree or a

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science degree,

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may not be possible when you're

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doing a medical degree.

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And even if you get the reasonable

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adjustments at university,

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going to work in the workplace.

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Particularly say for the fifth year

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medical students when they're mostly

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in the NHS, or going

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to primary care, responsibilities

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from the employer are slightly

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different.

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Do you want to elaborate on some of

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the issues that you've come across

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Lucy, because it seems to be

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something that comes up fairly

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regularly.

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I think it's sort of

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focusing on the word reasonable.

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It is, you know, an adjustment is

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there where it's reasonable and

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practically possible to implement.

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The main student support within

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the university has worked very

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closely with the medical school to

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sort of ensure that the

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adjustments that we're discussing

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with students are fit for a medical

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degree.

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Obviously, you've got the GMC

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looking over, you've go OSCEs, you

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got OSPEs, you've different forms

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of exams that wouldn't fall within

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an arts degree.

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And yes, we then have

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to look at kind of the progression

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into the working world, but we

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are an academic institution.

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So the adjustments are focused on

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the academics rather than,

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well, not rather than but not

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necessarily looking at the

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working-world.

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I would say that there's maybe a

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little bit of work to be done in

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that transitional phase

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from studying to working

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and kind of sort of

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moving away from adjustments or.

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And enabling the students to feel

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empowered to speak to their employer

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about maybe the types of adjustments

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that they can look at

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in the working world.

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But I think the great thing about

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my role is that I do work incredibly

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closely with the medical school, so

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we are picking up on common

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themes.

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We're ensuring that the adjustments

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that we discuss with students are

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reasonable, they're able to be

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implemented, but we're also managing

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expectations so we're not promising

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something when it can't physically

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be done.

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And I think ensuring that we have

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good lines of communication between

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the two, the two sort of

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teams, I guess, makes

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for kind of even practise.

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Whilst I still respect that they are

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a bit of a contentious issue at

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times, but we are trying to kind of

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iron that out a little bit.

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Thanks, Lucy.

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Yeah, you're right, it is a

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controversial issue.

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And I think particularly for

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clinicians sometimes looking in

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on what's going on, they can get

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a bit perplexed,

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shall we say.

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So I just want to

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00:09:07,970 --> 00:09:10,009
perhaps reassure people that we

293
00:09:10,010 --> 00:09:11,789
do have a number of processes in

294
00:09:11,790 --> 00:09:14,069
place to assist that

295
00:09:14,070 --> 00:09:16,109
communication with the main student

296
00:09:16,110 --> 00:09:18,789
support who we do work closely with.

297
00:09:18,790 --> 00:09:20,469
And, you know, we've got things like

298
00:09:20,470 --> 00:09:22,109
we have our.

299
00:09:22,110 --> 00:09:23,949
Regular SMMSN student support

300
00:09:23,950 --> 00:09:26,129
group meeting where we discuss all

301
00:09:26,130 --> 00:09:28,009
of the supports available and it's

302
00:09:28,010 --> 00:09:30,089
a forum for discussion

303
00:09:30,090 --> 00:09:31,809
about these sorts of controversial

304
00:09:31,810 --> 00:09:33,209
issues.

305
00:09:33,210 --> 00:09:35,029
And we also have things like

306
00:09:35,030 --> 00:09:36,729
standard operating procedures which

307
00:09:36,730 --> 00:09:39,009
sound really boring but they're

308
00:09:39,010 --> 00:09:41,029
crucial for helping

309
00:09:41,030 --> 00:09:43,509
Lucy's team understand the sort of

310
00:09:43,510 --> 00:09:45,449
diverse nature of the contexts

311
00:09:45,450 --> 00:09:47,729
that students are going in and

312
00:09:47,730 --> 00:09:50,169
what we can and can't provide.

313
00:09:50,170 --> 00:09:51,869
And I think in relation to that,

314
00:09:51,870 --> 00:09:54,509
most of us would know

315
00:09:54,510 --> 00:09:56,770
that the NHS is

316
00:09:59,950 --> 00:10:01,869
under constraint itself as

317
00:10:01,870 --> 00:10:03,849
a service provider and some

318
00:10:03,850 --> 00:10:05,689
of the infrastructure that it has to

319
00:10:05,690 --> 00:10:07,549
support that is, shall we

320
00:10:07,550 --> 00:10:09,949
say, put it politely, limited.

321
00:10:09,950 --> 00:10:11,929
And this is what students will be

322
00:10:11,930 --> 00:10:12,930
going into.

323
00:10:13,830 --> 00:10:14,739
So...

324
00:10:14,740 --> 00:10:16,759
It's understanding that

325
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:18,499
and trying to work through that

326
00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:20,519
really complex, messy reality

327
00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,459
of a student's

328
00:10:22,460 --> 00:10:24,339
individual needs versus running

329
00:10:24,340 --> 00:10:27,019
a training programme that works in

330
00:10:27,020 --> 00:10:29,479
a context of constraint

331
00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:31,239
and restraint as well.

332
00:10:32,510 --> 00:10:33,789
Yeah, because I'm just going to

333
00:10:33,790 --> 00:10:34,949
bring you in here, Nada, because

334
00:10:34,950 --> 00:10:36,889
when I was working in a

335
00:10:36,890 --> 00:10:38,329
previous life when I wasn't in

336
00:10:38,330 --> 00:10:40,169
charge of foundation doctors,

337
00:10:40,170 --> 00:10:42,309
so for some of them, dependent on

338
00:10:42,310 --> 00:10:43,989
their disability or what adjustments

339
00:10:43,990 --> 00:10:46,109
they needed, we would place

340
00:10:46,110 --> 00:10:48,049
them in different

341
00:10:48,050 --> 00:10:49,809
environments where it was more

342
00:10:49,810 --> 00:10:50,609
suitable.

343
00:10:50,610 --> 00:10:51,769
And I was just wondering,

344
00:10:51,770 --> 00:10:53,129
particularly from your primary care

345
00:10:53,130 --> 00:10:55,069
background, whether you think it

346
00:10:55,070 --> 00:10:56,969
makes a big difference, whether

347
00:10:56,970 --> 00:10:58,549
they're working in primary care or

348
00:10:58,550 --> 00:11:00,829
secondary care or other different

349
00:11:00,830 --> 00:11:02,139
adjustments soul.

350
00:11:02,140 --> 00:11:03,979
Do you think it's as big a problem

351
00:11:03,980 --> 00:11:05,529
or less of a problem?

352
00:11:05,530 --> 00:11:06,949
Yeah, I mean, I think it's important

353
00:11:06,950 --> 00:11:08,849
to remember that we

354
00:11:08,850 --> 00:11:10,449
all within the university and the

355
00:11:10,450 --> 00:11:12,389
NHS structure work in liaison

356
00:11:12,390 --> 00:11:13,869
with the Occupational Health Service

357
00:11:13,870 --> 00:11:15,269
as well.

358
00:11:15,270 --> 00:11:17,609
So majority of these students,

359
00:11:17,610 --> 00:11:19,269
before they graduate, or obviously

360
00:11:19,270 --> 00:11:21,329
after they graduate and

361
00:11:21,330 --> 00:11:23,289
they are junior doctors,

362
00:11:23,290 --> 00:11:25,269
would normally be in

363
00:11:25,270 --> 00:11:26,949
contact with the occupational health

364
00:11:26,950 --> 00:11:28,989
service and get an

365
00:11:28,990 --> 00:11:30,189
occupational health assessment.

366
00:11:30,190 --> 00:11:32,009
And that is important for

367
00:11:32,010 --> 00:11:33,689
us, whether you work within

368
00:11:33,690 --> 00:11:35,070
secondary care or primary care.

369
00:11:36,330 --> 00:11:38,289
To try to make sure that there is an

370
00:11:38,290 --> 00:11:39,649
occupational health assessment in

371
00:11:39,650 --> 00:11:41,869
place that would actually meet

372
00:11:41,870 --> 00:11:44,129
the provisions

373
00:11:44,130 --> 00:11:46,069
needed for that particular

374
00:11:46,070 --> 00:11:47,970
medical student or doctor.

375
00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:50,809
And you're quite right, the setup in

376
00:11:50,810 --> 00:11:52,529
primary care is slightly different

377
00:11:52,530 --> 00:11:54,149
to secondary care, the work

378
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:56,289
environment, the nature

379
00:11:56,290 --> 00:11:58,509
of the clinical contact

380
00:11:58,510 --> 00:12:00,389
itself is different,

381
00:12:00,390 --> 00:12:02,669
and yes,

382
00:12:02,670 --> 00:12:05,859
there might be some

383
00:12:05,860 --> 00:12:07,579
you know, conditions that you would

384
00:12:07,580 --> 00:12:10,059
probably function easier

385
00:12:10,060 --> 00:12:12,099
or harder in one of these

386
00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:13,100
setups.

387
00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:15,119
But obviously the key is to make

388
00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,219
sure that whichever setup you decide

389
00:12:17,220 --> 00:12:19,159
to work in is that

390
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,279
all the necessary provisions

391
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,239
are in

392
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,319
place for you as obviously as

393
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,299
we said earlier as realistically as

394
00:12:27,300 --> 00:12:28,299
possible.

395
00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:30,359
So just to give you an example,

396
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,319
medical student courses,

397
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:33,320
same.

398
00:12:34,010 --> 00:12:35,809
Full-time course and some of the

399
00:12:35,810 --> 00:12:38,069
recommendations that sometimes would

400
00:12:38,070 --> 00:12:40,349
come is whether the

401
00:12:40,350 --> 00:12:42,189
student can do

402
00:12:42,190 --> 00:12:44,129
part-time or certain hours and

403
00:12:44,130 --> 00:12:46,109
so on. So I think what's

404
00:12:46,110 --> 00:12:48,149
very important is to

405
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:49,969
be aware that at the end of the day

406
00:12:49,970 --> 00:12:51,949
you need to meet the requirements of

407
00:12:51,950 --> 00:12:53,929
the course and obviously as

408
00:12:53,930 --> 00:12:56,029
graduate to meet the

409
00:12:56,030 --> 00:12:57,649
requirement of the post that you're

410
00:12:57,650 --> 00:12:58,650
in.

411
00:12:59,180 --> 00:13:01,259
Yeah, I think that's really,

412
00:13:01,260 --> 00:13:02,659
really, really useful.

413
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,999
Just to my final sort of comment

414
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,579
or question around reasonable

415
00:13:07,580 --> 00:13:09,639
adjustments is, as an

416
00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,679
educator, if I'm working in

417
00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:13,399
a ward, and I understand the reason

418
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,879
for student confidentiality,

419
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:17,959
but as an educated, how much

420
00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,339
am I told or communicated

421
00:13:20,340 --> 00:13:22,239
with in terms of

422
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:23,679
reasonable adjustments or does

423
00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:25,919
everybody just turn up and I have to

424
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:27,879
guess or they say I have do this

425
00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:29,669
or. Whatever, because I think that's

426
00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:31,549
obviously a key concern from

427
00:13:31,550 --> 00:13:33,289
people who are teaching medical

428
00:13:33,290 --> 00:13:34,889
students. It might be a first year,

429
00:13:34,890 --> 00:13:36,729
one year, mostly in

430
00:13:36,730 --> 00:13:38,529
the wards, it's fourth and fifth

431
00:13:38,530 --> 00:13:40,149
years. I appreciate that.

432
00:13:40,150 --> 00:13:41,969
But I think another key issue

433
00:13:41,970 --> 00:13:43,429
is about how that communication

434
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:44,430
happens.

435
00:13:46,110 --> 00:13:47,409
Thank you, yeah.

436
00:13:47,410 --> 00:13:49,329
So that's good, because it reminds

437
00:13:49,330 --> 00:13:51,309
me, I wanted to

438
00:13:51,310 --> 00:13:52,729
say that there is this wider team

439
00:13:52,730 --> 00:13:54,109
that supports the students.

440
00:13:54,110 --> 00:13:55,969
So in terms of student support,

441
00:13:55,970 --> 00:13:58,029
we might speak of the three of us

442
00:13:58,030 --> 00:14:00,029
in SMMSN, but

443
00:14:00,030 --> 00:14:02,289
also there's the wider team,

444
00:14:02,290 --> 00:14:04,309
like Nard has said of OHS

445
00:14:04,310 --> 00:14:07,049
and the nurse educators.

446
00:14:07,050 --> 00:14:08,749
And they are the key people who

447
00:14:08,750 --> 00:14:11,349
would act as the bridge between the

448
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:12,739
university.

449
00:14:12,740 --> 00:14:14,519
And going on to the wards.

450
00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,199
So they would carry out a risk

451
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:17,499
assessment with students

452
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:20,759
and communicate what

453
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:22,819
is necessary for the block lead

454
00:14:22,820 --> 00:14:24,859
or the educational supervisor to

455
00:14:24,860 --> 00:14:26,739
know on each placement or in

456
00:14:26,740 --> 00:14:28,739
the GP educational supervisor

457
00:14:28,740 --> 00:14:30,419
as well.

458
00:14:30,420 --> 00:14:32,219
So that really student support is a

459
00:14:32,220 --> 00:14:34,199
massive team that's just

460
00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,139
wrapped around, if you like,

461
00:14:36,140 --> 00:14:37,779
the student and what their needs

462
00:14:37,780 --> 00:14:38,780
are.

463
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,179
That's the communication I think

464
00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:42,539
with the main student support,

465
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:45,579
the impetus or enforcement

466
00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:47,639
of revisions or adjustments

467
00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,879
if you like is provided through

468
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,839
their role on writing

469
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:53,399
on the student record system and

470
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,339
once that is in that

471
00:14:55,340 --> 00:14:58,079
sort of official bureaucratic

472
00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:59,999
infrastructure then it must

473
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,139
be more reasonably

474
00:15:02,140 --> 00:15:05,899
and practically implemented.

475
00:15:05,900 --> 00:15:08,139
So what you're saying is the key

476
00:15:08,140 --> 00:15:10,119
communicator to, you know,

477
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:11,999
I am an educator working on a ward

478
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,899
and I have, you now, the

479
00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:15,759
next five students on my

480
00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:17,799
block and one of them needs

481
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:18,959
reasonable adjustments.

482
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:20,519
Would it be the nurse educator that

483
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:21,299
spoke to me?

484
00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:22,419
It would be, right.

485
00:15:22,420 --> 00:15:24,869
So they are quite key then.

486
00:15:24,870 --> 00:15:27,209
And just to add is,

487
00:15:27,210 --> 00:15:28,909
we'd always as well encourage the

488
00:15:28,910 --> 00:15:30,969
students that do need specific

489
00:15:30,970 --> 00:15:32,889
provisions or there are some

490
00:15:32,890 --> 00:15:34,729
underlying issues or difficulties

491
00:15:34,730 --> 00:15:36,749
as they actually approach the

492
00:15:36,750 --> 00:15:37,809
block lead themselves.

493
00:15:39,010 --> 00:15:41,589
Sometimes there might be some

494
00:15:41,590 --> 00:15:44,249
personal issues that are

495
00:15:44,250 --> 00:15:46,089
causing problems in the background

496
00:15:46,090 --> 00:15:48,349
for the student and

497
00:15:48,350 --> 00:15:50,229
whether the university is aware of

498
00:15:50,230 --> 00:15:52,199
them or not. It's very difficult

499
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,979
to communicate that to the

500
00:15:54,980 --> 00:15:55,980
block lead.

501
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,819
So I think as

502
00:15:58,820 --> 00:16:00,819
much as the university can

503
00:16:00,820 --> 00:16:02,899
communicate with the

504
00:16:02,900 --> 00:16:04,959
educators about certain provisions

505
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,839
that are in place,

506
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:08,619
within the student support team as

507
00:16:08,620 --> 00:16:10,419
well, we produce like a student

508
00:16:10,420 --> 00:16:12,339
support card that the students can

509
00:16:12,340 --> 00:16:14,179
carry with them that

510
00:16:14,180 --> 00:16:16,139
might give an idea about what

511
00:16:16,140 --> 00:16:18,259
sort of provisions are required.

512
00:16:18,260 --> 00:16:20,159
But also I suspect there will

513
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,069
be and on

514
00:16:22,070 --> 00:16:23,609
us on the students themselves as

515
00:16:23,610 --> 00:16:25,089
well to reach out to their block

516
00:16:25,090 --> 00:16:26,169
lead.

517
00:16:26,170 --> 00:16:28,129
And from the early start,

518
00:16:28,130 --> 00:16:29,669
rather than wait three, four weeks

519
00:16:29,670 --> 00:16:31,269
on and then find out that this

520
00:16:31,270 --> 00:16:33,409
placement's not going very well.

521
00:16:33,410 --> 00:16:35,089
While if the block lead was aware of

522
00:16:35,090 --> 00:16:36,989
the situation earlier, things would

523
00:16:36,990 --> 00:16:38,449
have probably worked much better for

524
00:16:38,450 --> 00:16:39,329
them.

525
00:16:39,330 --> 00:16:41,149
Yeah, there's a continuum

526
00:16:41,150 --> 00:16:43,089
really it's not just a one size fits

527
00:16:43,090 --> 00:16:45,209
all and for

528
00:16:45,210 --> 00:16:47,450
the more obvious

529
00:16:51,010 --> 00:16:52,970
conditions and so forth,

530
00:16:54,090 --> 00:16:55,929
you know, what I was speaking

531
00:16:55,930 --> 00:16:57,689
about, but having it on your record,

532
00:16:57,690 --> 00:16:59,769
student record system, and the

533
00:16:59,770 --> 00:17:00,929
communication going through the

534
00:17:00,930 --> 00:17:03,229
nurse educators is probably more

535
00:17:03,230 --> 00:17:04,649
straightforward, but there are a lot

536
00:17:04,650 --> 00:17:06,549
more subtle

537
00:17:06,550 --> 00:17:08,669
nuances issues, and we don't

538
00:17:08,670 --> 00:17:10,689
obviously communicate everything,

539
00:17:10,690 --> 00:17:12,449
and there's an issue of

540
00:17:12,450 --> 00:17:14,909
confidentiality, too, with...

541
00:17:14,910 --> 00:17:16,169
Sort of thing that I would be saying

542
00:17:16,170 --> 00:17:18,129
is, it's all about communication and

543
00:17:18,130 --> 00:17:19,368
creating a psychologically safe

544
00:17:19,369 --> 00:17:20,309
space that a student feels

545
00:17:20,310 --> 00:17:21,529
comfortable speaking to the

546
00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:22,729
individuals involved about their

547
00:17:22,730 --> 00:17:24,429
needs. You know, it may not be

548
00:17:24,430 --> 00:17:26,189
disability related, it may be a

549
00:17:26,190 --> 00:17:27,389
personal circumstance.

550
00:17:27,390 --> 00:17:28,729
And if the student doesn't feel

551
00:17:28,730 --> 00:17:29,749
comfortable coming forward and

552
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:31,369
saying, this is happening, then

553
00:17:31,370 --> 00:17:32,769
they're at risk of being lost in the

554
00:17:32,770 --> 00:17:33,669
system.

555
00:17:33,670 --> 00:17:35,909
So I think it's, you know,

556
00:17:35,910 --> 00:17:37,749
hammering home, communication

557
00:17:37,750 --> 00:17:39,309
is key in all directions.

558
00:17:39,310 --> 00:17:40,349
You know it's key for me to

559
00:17:40,350 --> 00:17:41,729
communicate with the main student

560
00:17:41,730 --> 00:17:42,869
support about the adjustments that

561
00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:44,069
I've identified or the teams

562
00:17:44,070 --> 00:17:45,179
identified.

563
00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:46,899
But it's also key for everybody else

564
00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:48,039
to feel comfortable to communicate

565
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,219
with everybody else, which is easier

566
00:17:50,220 --> 00:17:51,859
said than done.

567
00:17:51,860 --> 00:17:53,739
But, you know, it makes life a lot

568
00:17:53,740 --> 00:17:55,299
easier when people feel comfortable

569
00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:57,299
and confident to go and say, these

570
00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:58,359
are the things that are happening,

571
00:17:58,360 --> 00:17:59,699
this is what I've identified as

572
00:17:59,700 --> 00:18:01,479
being useful, or these are things

573
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:02,879
that happening, I don't know what's

574
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:04,219
available to me.

575
00:18:04,220 --> 00:18:05,599
You know, there's a massive support

576
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,239
network, as Wendy has identified,

577
00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,239
there is a massive network, almost

578
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,219
a web, that is

579
00:18:11,220 --> 00:18:13,099
there to catch those students

580
00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:14,879
before they fall completely on their

581
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,769
face. You know, and

582
00:18:16,770 --> 00:18:17,969
it's making sure that they feel

583
00:18:17,970 --> 00:18:19,449
comfortable to engage with that and

584
00:18:19,450 --> 00:18:20,450
that we can catch them.

585
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:22,819
There's a huge amount of support.

586
00:18:22,820 --> 00:18:24,859
And I think that's the key message

587
00:18:24,860 --> 00:18:26,859
that I would like to get,

588
00:18:26,860 --> 00:18:29,019
we should get across in this podcast

589
00:18:29,020 --> 00:18:30,759
is there's a lot of support out

590
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,639
there. However, there are, and

591
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:33,899
we're never going to resolve this.

592
00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:35,579
There are some students who don't

593
00:18:35,580 --> 00:18:37,679
want to speak to anybody or feel

594
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,619
because of their culture or their

595
00:18:39,620 --> 00:18:41,059
background that they're failing.

596
00:18:41,060 --> 00:18:42,779
And I Think particularly with

597
00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:44,519
medical students, you know, they're

598
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,159
all, a lot of them are not high

599
00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:47,359
flies but there's lots of pressure

600
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:48,259
on them.

601
00:18:48,260 --> 00:18:50,079
And just speaking as

602
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:51,979
a a regent and who've had a

603
00:18:51,980 --> 00:18:54,259
number of regentees, sometimes

604
00:18:54,260 --> 00:18:55,339
the first thing I know that's

605
00:18:55,340 --> 00:18:56,639
something wrong is when we've almost

606
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:58,639
got to the crisis

607
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,179
point or help,

608
00:19:01,180 --> 00:19:03,039
which is not always that

609
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:04,719
helpful because if you'd help before

610
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:05,919
and say, well, why didn't you go

611
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,919
here? Or why didn't you do this

612
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:09,079
or whatever? And then, well, I

613
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,359
didn't want to tell anybody or it's

614
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:13,619
private and it's not, or

615
00:19:13,620 --> 00:19:15,359
I didn't know who to go to, which I

616
00:19:15,360 --> 00:19:17,379
feel is a bit unfair

617
00:19:17,380 --> 00:19:19,059
because there's lots of ways you can

618
00:19:19,060 --> 00:19:20,679
find out about it.

619
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,839
Just turning the conversation into,

620
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:24,339
you know, slightly the other way

621
00:19:24,340 --> 00:19:26,299
now. So me, again, thinking of

622
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:28,139
me as the educator

623
00:19:28,140 --> 00:19:30,099
of a student, you know I've

624
00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:32,339
got a block of students on

625
00:19:32,340 --> 00:19:34,399
the ward and I have some concerns

626
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,199
about somebody, not necessarily

627
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:37,699
about, I'm not talking about not

628
00:19:37,700 --> 00:19:39,559
turning up, but they're working and

629
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:40,939
you think, is there something not

630
00:19:40,940 --> 00:19:42,399
quite right here or is there's

631
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:43,400
something going on?

632
00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:46,299
What would your advice be to them

633
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,139
in terms of what steps they should

634
00:19:48,140 --> 00:19:49,599
or shouldn't follow?

635
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,839
Yeah, I would say really early

636
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,919
intervention is the key here,

637
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:57,919
because quite often as

638
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,339
an educator, you might notice

639
00:20:00,340 --> 00:20:02,479
kind of little, few things

640
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,279
that are happening, but just not

641
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,579
putting the two together sometimes,

642
00:20:06,580 --> 00:20:08,139
and sometimes as well not

643
00:20:08,140 --> 00:20:09,420
interviewing early enough.

644
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:11,879
So really we would advise all

645
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:13,939
educators if there is any concern

646
00:20:13,940 --> 00:20:15,939
about a student, regardless

647
00:20:15,940 --> 00:20:17,779
of the nature of that

648
00:20:17,780 --> 00:20:19,839
concern, is to reach out

649
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,329
to our team.

650
00:20:21,330 --> 00:20:23,329
Or obviously to the central student

651
00:20:23,330 --> 00:20:24,510
support team,

652
00:20:25,710 --> 00:20:28,229
a conversation with the

653
00:20:28,230 --> 00:20:30,189
student to

654
00:20:30,190 --> 00:20:32,029
try to identify

655
00:20:32,030 --> 00:20:33,849
what's going on and

656
00:20:33,850 --> 00:20:36,269
obviously getting their consent to

657
00:20:36,270 --> 00:20:37,589
get in touch with us.

658
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:39,529
And sometimes the

659
00:20:39,530 --> 00:20:41,569
educators themselves will directly

660
00:20:41,570 --> 00:20:43,629
email our team or sometimes

661
00:20:43,630 --> 00:20:44,769
they encourage the student

662
00:20:44,770 --> 00:20:46,629
themselves to reach to our

663
00:20:46,630 --> 00:20:48,809
team and the student will get in.

664
00:20:48,810 --> 00:20:50,509
I would say the key to all of this

665
00:20:50,510 --> 00:20:52,949
really is step in early.

666
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:54,569
Don't wait till the end of the block

667
00:20:54,570 --> 00:20:56,249
to tell a student that they've

668
00:20:56,250 --> 00:20:57,559
actually got a problem.

669
00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,399
Um, I say that to, to my students,

670
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:00,959
you know, I'm going to turn it the

671
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,139
other way around, you, know, the

672
00:21:03,140 --> 00:21:04,339
minute you feel something that's not

673
00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:05,919
quite right, even if it's a very

674
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,059
small thing, have that conversation,

675
00:21:08,060 --> 00:21:09,039
get in touch with students for, get

676
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,479
into touch with, with Wendy or the

677
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,779
team, you know, before it gets big.

678
00:21:12,780 --> 00:21:14,279
It's the sort of the idea of the

679
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:15,579
snowball falling down the hill.

680
00:21:15,580 --> 00:21:16,939
If you can catch it at the top of

681
00:21:16,940 --> 00:21:19,479
the hill before it starts to roll,

682
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:20,639
it things are getting easier.

683
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:21,739
You know, you can, you could put

684
00:21:21,740 --> 00:21:22,919
support in place really quite

685
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:23,779
quickly.

686
00:21:23,780 --> 00:21:25,059
And it might not be a big

687
00:21:25,060 --> 00:21:26,539
adjustment, it might be big support,

688
00:21:26,540 --> 00:21:27,639
it might just be knowing that

689
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:28,979
there's the counselling team that

690
00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:29,999
you can go and have a conversation

691
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,939
with or the chaplaincy or

692
00:21:31,940 --> 00:21:33,459
just somebody that's going to listen

693
00:21:33,460 --> 00:21:35,099
to you that's impartial.

694
00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:36,759
I think also that one of the things

695
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:38,879
that people can do on the wards,

696
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,679
clinical education supervisors and

697
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:41,680
things like that,

698
00:21:42,860 --> 00:21:44,899
is appear as approachable as

699
00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:47,399
possible and being human.

700
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,359
We're all human and we all

701
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:52,099
suffer from these anxieties.

702
00:21:52,100 --> 00:21:53,619
Because I think a lot of the time I

703
00:21:53,620 --> 00:21:54,660
hear students saying.

704
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,619
Oh, you know, there's

705
00:21:57,620 --> 00:21:59,399
all the stigma associated with

706
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:00,739
mental health issues and I don't

707
00:22:00,740 --> 00:22:02,099
want to speak about it.

708
00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:03,639
Or what will the GMC say?

709
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:04,979
I'll be kicked out and I won't be a

710
00:22:04,980 --> 00:22:06,419
doctor anymore.

711
00:22:06,420 --> 00:22:07,999
Or, you know, they'll be other

712
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,299
consequences for that.

713
00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:11,779
You know, so students say, oh, no,

714
00:22:11,780 --> 00:22:13,239
it's a personal problem.

715
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,299
I don't want to talk about it The

716
00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:17,499
trouble is with that line of

717
00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:19,459
logic or thinking is that when you

718
00:22:19,460 --> 00:22:21,159
when it impacts on your attendance

719
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,579
and engagement or going out to.

720
00:22:23,580 --> 00:22:25,539
Um, clinical placements, then

721
00:22:25,540 --> 00:22:27,379
it becomes, you know, a

722
00:22:27,380 --> 00:22:29,499
school problem or a university issue

723
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:31,019
that we have to deal with.

724
00:22:31,020 --> 00:22:33,019
And also just to,

725
00:22:33,020 --> 00:22:36,479
for clinicians information,

726
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,699
like we link our SMMSN

727
00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:40,639
student support through wider

728
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,539
student support networks,

729
00:22:42,540 --> 00:22:44,039
like the Scottish medical school

730
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:45,499
student support network and the

731
00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:47,519
medical schools council welfare

732
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:48,679
group, as it's called.

733
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,559
So we have since

734
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,389
checked with a wider national.

735
00:22:53,390 --> 00:22:55,369
Group of people who are also going

736
00:22:55,370 --> 00:22:57,429
through similar issues and the

737
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:59,389
huge increase in asking for

738
00:22:59,390 --> 00:23:01,269
revisions and

739
00:23:01,270 --> 00:23:03,129
the sort of support

740
00:23:03,130 --> 00:23:04,729
that students needs they come up

741
00:23:04,730 --> 00:23:06,629
with advisories or FTP

742
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:08,549
or anxiety

743
00:23:08,550 --> 00:23:09,469
and things like that.

744
00:23:09,470 --> 00:23:11,289
So I think it's

745
00:23:11,290 --> 00:23:13,129
not just the

746
00:23:13,130 --> 00:23:15,569
team here, it's also a wider network

747
00:23:15,570 --> 00:23:17,429
that is supporting the student

748
00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:19,269
across the nation if you

749
00:23:19,270 --> 00:23:20,609
like, that sounds a bit grandiose

750
00:23:20,610 --> 00:23:22,609
but no, yeah,

751
00:23:22,610 --> 00:23:23,789
it's not done.

752
00:23:23,790 --> 00:23:26,029
We're not working as lone rangers.

753
00:23:26,030 --> 00:23:27,749
We're tapping into a huge amount of

754
00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:28,439
resource.

755
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,159
Just add a minor point here, which

756
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,759
as you mentioned yourself, as a

757
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:33,279
regent, I mean, lots of students

758
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,079
actually find it easier to reach out

759
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:36,679
to their regents, you know, for

760
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,159
their problems.

761
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:39,759
And sometimes we get a regents that

762
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,799
comes around to the student support

763
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,619
team to say, I've met with

764
00:23:43,620 --> 00:23:44,799
a student.

765
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,539
And so I think, I think the key

766
00:23:46,540 --> 00:23:48,279
really is regardless who you reach

767
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,139
out to, your regent to

768
00:23:50,140 --> 00:23:52,039
your block lead,

769
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:53,040
the nurse educators.

770
00:23:54,260 --> 00:23:55,959
Sometimes, lots of the students

771
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,059
would reach out to the year

772
00:23:57,060 --> 00:23:59,159
secretaries because they find them

773
00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,539
much easier to talk to.

774
00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:04,359
But whoever really you decide

775
00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:06,719
to reach out or whoever you feel is

776
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,639
much more approachable, the key

777
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,179
step is really to reach from

778
00:24:11,180 --> 00:24:13,219
the student's side really as well.

779
00:24:13,220 --> 00:24:14,719
And I think from the educator's

780
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,919
perspective, I think, you know,

781
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,579
as you say, it's really important

782
00:24:18,580 --> 00:24:19,979
that if you think something's wrong,

783
00:24:19,980 --> 00:24:22,259
then it probably is because that's

784
00:24:22,260 --> 00:24:23,819
your experience from having gone

785
00:24:23,820 --> 00:24:25,059
through the system.

786
00:24:25,060 --> 00:24:26,919
But just picking up your point about

787
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:28,859
mental health,

788
00:24:28,860 --> 00:24:30,679
Wendy, I think there are

789
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,759
certainly a percentage of

790
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,759
students who think like

791
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,299
you do, oh, well, if I've got mental

792
00:24:36,300 --> 00:24:38,039
health issues, I won't get a licence

793
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,069
to practise.

794
00:24:39,070 --> 00:24:41,049
You know, it's doom and

795
00:24:41,050 --> 00:24:42,449
gloom, I'll be thrown out.

796
00:24:42,450 --> 00:24:44,369
I don't want anybody to know that

797
00:24:44,370 --> 00:24:45,969
I've got mental health issues

798
00:24:45,970 --> 00:24:48,069
because that's not great.

799
00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:50,289
And so I think there's

800
00:24:50,290 --> 00:24:52,649
still that fear of the GMC

801
00:24:52,650 --> 00:24:54,189
looming and fitness to practise

802
00:24:54,190 --> 00:24:56,109
looming over quite a lot of

803
00:24:56,110 --> 00:24:57,269
students. And I think it's the

804
00:24:57,270 --> 00:24:59,089
educator's responsibility to try

805
00:24:59,090 --> 00:25:01,109
and make it clear that,

806
00:25:01,110 --> 00:25:02,769
you know, everybody suffers from

807
00:25:02,770 --> 00:25:04,509
various things and their personal

808
00:25:04,510 --> 00:25:06,329
life or whatever, but

809
00:25:06,330 --> 00:25:08,789
to try to be supportive.

810
00:25:08,790 --> 00:25:10,309
That's right.

811
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:12,929
So we have in SMMSN

812
00:25:12,930 --> 00:25:14,169
a student mental health working

813
00:25:14,170 --> 00:25:16,089
group who are

814
00:25:16,090 --> 00:25:18,129
drawn from across SMMS

815
00:25:18,130 --> 00:25:20,029
and, you know, postgraduate

816
00:25:20,030 --> 00:25:22,149
teaching courses as well as the

817
00:25:22,150 --> 00:25:24,529
medical degree in

818
00:25:24,530 --> 00:25:25,949
an effort to try and address the

819
00:25:25,950 --> 00:25:28,229
stigma and normalise the fact that,

820
00:25:28,230 --> 00:25:29,649
you know we all have mental health

821
00:25:29,650 --> 00:25:31,429
issues if you like or mental health

822
00:25:31,430 --> 00:25:33,289
or however we want to

823
00:25:33,290 --> 00:25:35,569
call it nowadays so we're looking at

824
00:25:35,570 --> 00:25:37,389
raising awareness around that

825
00:25:37,390 --> 00:25:38,849
because as you say that.

826
00:25:38,850 --> 00:25:40,829
GMC do actually support

827
00:25:40,830 --> 00:25:42,689
that with their documentation on

828
00:25:42,690 --> 00:25:44,569
supporting students who have

829
00:25:44,570 --> 00:25:46,669
mental health conditions.

830
00:25:46,670 --> 00:25:48,149
So, you know, it's a two pronged,

831
00:25:48,150 --> 00:25:49,449
we've both got the sort of

832
00:25:49,450 --> 00:25:51,109
overarching policy approach, but

833
00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:52,689
we're also working at the ground

834
00:25:52,690 --> 00:25:54,749
level with the students to

835
00:25:54,750 --> 00:25:56,629
discuss these issues and try and

836
00:25:56,630 --> 00:25:58,509
raise awareness and normalise

837
00:25:58,510 --> 00:26:00,050
that we're all human, because

838
00:26:00,051 --> 00:26:01,669
actually the student mental health

839
00:26:01,670 --> 00:26:03,609
group chose to call themselves

840
00:26:03,610 --> 00:26:05,049
Be Human.

841
00:26:05,050 --> 00:26:07,049
I think to underline the humanity

842
00:26:07,050 --> 00:26:08,569
of the situation that we're working

843
00:26:08,570 --> 00:26:10,509
in within healthcare as well

844
00:26:10,510 --> 00:26:12,009
as within education.

845
00:26:13,330 --> 00:26:15,789
So it seems to me the messages,

846
00:26:15,790 --> 00:26:17,529
particularly from the educator

847
00:26:17,530 --> 00:26:19,469
perspective, is that if you

848
00:26:19,470 --> 00:26:21,089
think there's an issue, then the

849
00:26:21,090 --> 00:26:23,169
best thing to do is speak about

850
00:26:23,170 --> 00:26:25,349
it or raise it,

851
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:26,789
particularly with the student in the

852
00:26:26,790 --> 00:26:28,429
first instance. Would that be right,

853
00:26:28,430 --> 00:26:29,499
Nada?

854
00:26:29,500 --> 00:26:31,359
Yes, I mean, certainly I

855
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:33,239
think it's important, you know,

856
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,039
that you have that kind of open

857
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:36,779
conversation with a student.

858
00:26:36,780 --> 00:26:38,579
And sometimes these conversations

859
00:26:38,580 --> 00:26:40,379
can be a little bit difficult and

860
00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:42,219
some of the educators, you know,

861
00:26:42,220 --> 00:26:44,619
are keen to avoid them, but

862
00:26:44,620 --> 00:26:46,579
they are actually necessary when

863
00:26:46,580 --> 00:26:49,259
you're having a student that have

864
00:26:49,260 --> 00:26:51,199
problems, you know,

865
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:52,659
on the ward or elsewhere.

866
00:26:54,090 --> 00:26:56,269
And it might be sometimes that

867
00:26:56,270 --> 00:26:57,929
is something that is easy enough to

868
00:26:57,930 --> 00:26:59,829
sort out at that level and might not

869
00:26:59,830 --> 00:27:02,369
need to involve multiple

870
00:27:02,370 --> 00:27:03,490
other parties.

871
00:27:04,730 --> 00:27:06,769
And I think it's important,

872
00:27:06,770 --> 00:27:08,889
you know, that the

873
00:27:08,890 --> 00:27:10,869
student is on board with what we're

874
00:27:10,870 --> 00:27:12,449
planning to do and obviously seeking

875
00:27:12,450 --> 00:27:14,529
the support because if

876
00:27:14,530 --> 00:27:16,789
the student does not buy into that

877
00:27:16,790 --> 00:27:18,749
they need the help,

878
00:27:18,750 --> 00:27:20,949
sending an email to us might

879
00:27:20,950 --> 00:27:22,059
probably not.

880
00:27:22,060 --> 00:27:23,719
Changed an awful lot really so I

881
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,019
think the key part is really to get

882
00:27:25,020 --> 00:27:26,999
the student on board that there is

883
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,599
a problem and we can work together

884
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:29,759
to sort it out.

885
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,599
Okay, so we've talked a lot about

886
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,319
student support services in its

887
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,119
widest sense, and there's a lot out

888
00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:36,739
there. And I have mentioned the fact

889
00:27:36,740 --> 00:27:38,139
that I'm a regent and obviously

890
00:27:38,140 --> 00:27:40,459
quite a lot of educators are

891
00:27:40,460 --> 00:27:41,299
regents.

892
00:27:41,300 --> 00:27:43,279
How do you feel that fits

893
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,239
into the overall

894
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,299
student support?

895
00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:47,739
I mean, both from the medical school

896
00:27:47,740 --> 00:27:49,799
perspective, but presumably from

897
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,519
the university, because everybody in

898
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:52,939
the university has a regents, do

899
00:27:52,940 --> 00:27:53,940
they not?

900
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,819
For non-medical degrees, they're

901
00:27:56,820 --> 00:27:57,839
called personal tutors.

902
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:58,939
When I'm speaking to students, I

903
00:27:58,940 --> 00:28:00,479
would say, go to your regent, go to

904
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:01,979
you personal tutor if you have

905
00:28:01,980 --> 00:28:03,839
support needs and you're not

906
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,499
sure who to turn to and for your

907
00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:06,779
academic questions as well because

908
00:28:06,780 --> 00:28:08,699
they work in the school, they know

909
00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:09,700
that information.

910
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:12,179
I would love regents to meet with

911
00:28:12,180 --> 00:28:14,059
their students on a regular basis,

912
00:28:14,060 --> 00:28:15,479
touch base, because I think that's a

913
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,319
really quick way of checking

914
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:18,919
in and dipping those little issues

915
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:19,919
in the bud.

916
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,879
And sort of seeing your region as

917
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,759
a friendly face, not as the person

918
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:24,959
that is going to give you into

919
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:25,859
trouble as well.

920
00:28:25,860 --> 00:28:27,639
And I think building that

921
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:28,979
relationship, building that safe

922
00:28:28,980 --> 00:28:30,919
space will better

923
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,139
help the students engage with

924
00:28:32,140 --> 00:28:33,140
support in the long run.

925
00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:35,649
Anything particular in the medical

926
00:28:35,650 --> 00:28:36,529
school?

927
00:28:36,530 --> 00:28:38,149
Well, I just think it's interesting

928
00:28:38,150 --> 00:28:39,529
because a few years ago I did a

929
00:28:39,530 --> 00:28:41,349
survey with Regence and one of

930
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:43,389
the most popular topics that

931
00:28:43,390 --> 00:28:45,229
they wanted further

932
00:28:45,230 --> 00:28:47,249
development on or training sessions

933
00:28:47,250 --> 00:28:49,229
was how to identify and support

934
00:28:49,230 --> 00:28:50,929
a student who's in distress.

935
00:28:52,810 --> 00:28:54,709
And sort of brainstorming

936
00:28:54,710 --> 00:28:55,889
that, because at first I was a bit

937
00:28:55,890 --> 00:28:57,929
perplexed thinking, well, isn't it

938
00:28:57,930 --> 00:28:58,930
kind of obvious?

939
00:29:00,180 --> 00:29:02,479
But you work in student support,

940
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:03,480
Wendy.

941
00:29:03,740 --> 00:29:05,499
So, you know, I think clinicians

942
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:07,399
want to know that if a student's

943
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:08,739
turning up late or they're not

944
00:29:08,740 --> 00:29:10,339
turning up at all, or they are not

945
00:29:10,340 --> 00:29:11,839
engaging with conversation

946
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,239
or attending ward rounds or,

947
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:16,619
you know, any of those kind of

948
00:29:16,620 --> 00:29:18,539
behaviours. I mean, I say that with

949
00:29:18,540 --> 00:29:19,999
a caveat. Well, there's always a

950
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,139
place for introverts and extroverts

951
00:29:22,140 --> 00:29:23,399
in the healthcare profession.

952
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:24,959
You don't have to be all out there

953
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,859
and super engaged all the

954
00:29:26,860 --> 00:29:27,699
time.

955
00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:29,439
But I think that you can start to

956
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,299
pick up by that level of

957
00:29:31,300 --> 00:29:33,259
engagement and attendance and

958
00:29:33,260 --> 00:29:35,199
just involvement on the

959
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,339
ward that there might be something

960
00:29:37,340 --> 00:29:39,239
going on for the student that

961
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,240
they might need support with.

962
00:29:42,370 --> 00:29:44,209
Well, we've covered a wide range

963
00:29:44,210 --> 00:29:46,189
of topics,

964
00:29:46,190 --> 00:29:48,249
so hopefully people will have a

965
00:29:48,250 --> 00:29:50,149
better idea now of what's

966
00:29:50,150 --> 00:29:51,189
available, I think, early

967
00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:52,949
intervention. So I'm going to ask

968
00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:55,229
each of you in turn for your,

969
00:29:55,230 --> 00:29:57,289
what is your one take-home message

970
00:29:57,290 --> 00:29:59,329
that you would like educators

971
00:29:59,330 --> 00:30:00,849
to take after listening to this

972
00:30:00,850 --> 00:30:01,629
podcast?

973
00:30:01,630 --> 00:30:02,789
So I'll start with you, Nada,

974
00:30:02,790 --> 00:30:03,709
because you're the one sitting

975
00:30:03,710 --> 00:30:04,710
closest to me.

976
00:30:05,540 --> 00:30:07,459
I would probably emphasise the

977
00:30:07,460 --> 00:30:09,459
importance of getting in

978
00:30:09,460 --> 00:30:11,539
touch early and having that

979
00:30:11,540 --> 00:30:14,059
frank conversation with the student.

980
00:30:14,060 --> 00:30:15,379
Sometimes it's a little bit

981
00:30:15,380 --> 00:30:16,779
difficult when you're on the ward

982
00:30:16,780 --> 00:30:18,679
and you don't see

983
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,979
that student that often

984
00:30:20,980 --> 00:30:23,199
as their

985
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,039
kind of block lead or clinical

986
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:25,959
tutor.

987
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,739
It's much easier for us in general

988
00:30:27,740 --> 00:30:29,099
practise because there is more

989
00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:31,159
one-to-one and sometimes we

990
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,029
spot things that has not happened.

991
00:30:33,030 --> 00:30:34,929
Not been noticed in the past because

992
00:30:34,930 --> 00:30:36,710
of that close kind of working

993
00:30:36,711 --> 00:30:38,669
relationship there.

994
00:30:38,670 --> 00:30:40,889
But the key I would say,

995
00:30:40,890 --> 00:30:42,509
there is plenty of support out of

996
00:30:42,510 --> 00:30:43,689
there, there are a lot of people

997
00:30:43,690 --> 00:30:45,549
that you can turn to

998
00:30:45,550 --> 00:30:48,469
and please do it early.

999
00:30:48,470 --> 00:30:49,470
Wendy? Bye.

1000
00:31:07,470 --> 00:31:09,669
So I would reiterate that

1001
00:31:09,670 --> 00:31:11,809
and say to,

1002
00:31:11,810 --> 00:31:13,369
if you're not sure, ask.

1003
00:31:13,370 --> 00:31:15,129
That's what we're here for.

1004
00:31:15,130 --> 00:31:17,409
And you can't get it wrong.

1005
00:31:17,410 --> 00:31:19,289
So sometimes regents, clinical

1006
00:31:19,290 --> 00:31:21,049
educators, supervisors feel like

1007
00:31:21,050 --> 00:31:22,709
they're a bit worried about reaching

1008
00:31:22,710 --> 00:31:24,229
out because they might get something

1009
00:31:24,230 --> 00:31:26,129
wrong. And I'd say, you can really

1010
00:31:26,130 --> 00:31:28,009
get it right. So just ask

1011
00:31:28,010 --> 00:31:29,169
if you not sure.

1012
00:31:29,170 --> 00:31:30,389
We're happy to help.

1013
00:31:30,390 --> 00:31:31,629
Can't get wrong, that's a good

1014
00:31:31,630 --> 00:31:32,209
message.

1015
00:31:32,210 --> 00:31:34,729
I agree, I think it's,

1016
00:31:34,730 --> 00:31:36,489
communication is key.

1017
00:31:36,490 --> 00:31:37,809
You know, creating a safe space

1018
00:31:37,810 --> 00:31:40,409
where communication can flow freely.

1019
00:31:40,410 --> 00:31:41,789
There is no such thing as a silly

1020
00:31:41,790 --> 00:31:43,969
question. You know it's better to

1021
00:31:43,970 --> 00:31:45,949
be wrong per se than to

1022
00:31:45,950 --> 00:31:47,429
not speak up at all.

1023
00:31:47,430 --> 00:31:49,809
And just know, you know,

1024
00:31:49,810 --> 00:31:50,809
know who to turn to.

1025
00:31:50,810 --> 00:31:51,929
Know that there is a lot of support

1026
00:31:51,930 --> 00:31:53,109
to turn too. If you turn to the

1027
00:31:53,110 --> 00:31:54,389
wrong person, that's totally fine,

1028
00:31:54,390 --> 00:31:55,449
they're probably gonna signpost you

1029
00:31:55,450 --> 00:31:56,769
in the right direction.

1030
00:31:56,770 --> 00:31:58,669
But when in doubt, shout.

1031
00:31:58,670 --> 00:32:00,249
You know, please speak, please let

1032
00:32:00,250 --> 00:32:01,629
us know what's happening, and

1033
00:32:01,630 --> 00:32:03,029
whether it's Wendy and her team, or

1034
00:32:03,030 --> 00:32:05,449
whether it is student support at

1035
00:32:05,450 --> 00:32:07,388
the university,

1036
00:32:07,389 --> 00:32:09,249
we're all employed to help you, and

1037
00:32:09,250 --> 00:32:10,609
that's what we want to do.

1038
00:32:10,610 --> 00:32:11,319
That's great.

1039
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:12,779
Thanks very much. It's been a really

1040
00:32:12,780 --> 00:32:13,899
interesting conversation.

1041
00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:16,579
We've covered quite a lot of topics.

1042
00:32:16,580 --> 00:32:17,839
I would like to just remind

1043
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,139
everybody that we

1044
00:32:20,140 --> 00:32:22,039
have a whole module,

1045
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,079
no, not even a module, a programme

1046
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,099
on student support with several

1047
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:27,919
modules on our TURAS,

1048
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,579
on our faculty development site on

1049
00:32:29,580 --> 00:32:30,399
TURAs.

1050
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,319
Please feel free to log in,

1051
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:33,339
access it.

1052
00:32:33,340 --> 00:32:35,579
It's recently been reviewed and

1053
00:32:35,580 --> 00:32:36,819
revitalised.

1054
00:32:36,820 --> 00:32:38,979
So it's a great programme.

1055
00:32:38,980 --> 00:32:41,239
So please go in and that'll

1056
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:42,899
give you further information and

1057
00:32:42,900 --> 00:32:44,139
guidance on what to do.

1058
00:32:44,140 --> 00:32:45,739
But I think the key message is

1059
00:32:45,740 --> 00:32:47,440
speak, communicate.

1060
00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:50,559
No question is a bad question or

1061
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,119
a wrong question.

1062
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,039
So, and obviously if we

1063
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,299
can do that, it makes it a better

1064
00:32:55,300 --> 00:32:56,659
experience for everybody.

1065
00:32:56,660 --> 00:32:58,519
So I'd just like to once again,

1066
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,359
thanks Lucy, Wendy and Nada for

1067
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:01,539
coming. Thank you.