Why Does Culture Eat Strategy For Breakfast?

WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:10.199
Breaking down everyday workplace issues and diagnosing the hidden sickness,  not just the obvious symptom. Our hosts, James and Coby.
00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:12.000
Did we lose a patient?
00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:14.880
No, that's just my lunch.
00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:27.640
Hey, thanks for joining us. I'm Coby, he's James. And let's get  started with a question. Why does culture eat strategy for breakfast?
00:00:27.640 --> 00:02:05.719
Yeah, Yeah, I, I mean, I think many people have heard the statement  that's commonly attributed to Peter Drucker that, you know, as you said,  culture eats strategy for breakfast. apparently he's never said those words, but whatever,  either way, I agree with them and that's really all that's important, people. but really, I mean,  to answer the question, I believe that the answer, that the reason is fairly simple.  the implementation of your strategy relies on people. And if people are actively frustrated  by the way that the organization is structured, if they don't feel safe to share their thoughts  and opinions, they don't feel like they belong, or they're just going through the motions of work,  then your strategy is likely to fail. now, I mean, people can and do implement strategies  in environments that have weak or poor cultures, but it's the time, it's the energy, and it's the  effort that's required. to do so is just a lot higher. And the risks of mistakes are higher.  The risks of losing key people in the midst of trying to implement your strategy is higher.  All of the negative aspects of a weak or poor culture make it more challenging to sustain your  strategy. Now, want to be clear? Plan beats no plan every day of the week. And it's far,  far better to actually have a strategy and a culture that can implement the strategy. But  if I had to pick one or the other, I'm going to pick culture, over strategy any day of the week.
00:02:05.719 --> 00:03:24.080
Yeah, I think that, I think, I think that this is going to be a great conversation because,  like, because you're right. This is like, like this, this, this expression,  like culture strategy for breakfast is, is one of those, like, commonly cited, well searched,  you know, kind of like things that exist in the business world. Zeitgeist. Right. And, but like,  it's something that I think people take for granted. The why and, and what's wonderful about  the work that we do is we kind of get to see the different types of businesses and their degrees of  their culture and degrees of their strategy and understand, like, like really, really,  really understand the impact of this statement and how true this statement is, regardless of whoever  said it. and I think that it's going to be it's going to be, important for people to kind of who  were to listen to this, to really try to kind of put into perspective the, I guess, almost like the  way that these two things really play into each other. Because like I, you said, you know, the  answer is you want to have, like both are really important. But, you know, culture is kind of the.  Like, the. How. Like one of the things that you said, you know, people will implement a strategy.
00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:24.151
Ah.
00:03:24.151 --> 00:03:40.159
and if they don't have a culture, it's almost like trying to hold sand. It's pouring  out and, you know, and it's limited because like, you know, people will. Culture is kind  of has that staying power. It has that almost like it's. It's a glue to it. Right.
00:03:40.159 --> 00:05:21.360
And we do talk a lot about time, effort and energy. Right. The. It's not that  you can't implement a strategy in a poor, weak culture. Right. I, I want to reinforce that it  is possible and people do it every day. I mean, there are unfortunately far more environments  that have a plan and poor culture than a great culture and poor plan. no, they both exist,  obviously, but that's irrelevant. What I want to really reinforce is that if you want to,  if you don't want to drop the ball on everything else that you're doing,  if you want to not only implement your strategy, but maintain your productivity to continue to,  to use your strategy, I mean, especially if we're talking about, growth strategies, right. You need  that internal operational piece to continue to hum along, without massive interruptions in  either your staffing compliments or in, I mean, in whatever way, whether it's burnout, whether  it's absenteeism, whether it is just people going through the motions of work or actually actively  losing key people as you try to implement a strategy, all of those things you can make,  you can work around them, you can find solutions to them, but it's going to slow down the impact.  It's going to slow down the implementation of your strategy. It's going to slow down your goals,  your growth, strategy, your profitability. And so culture sustains what your strategy creates.
00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:37.639
and absolutely. So what I think will be a really helpful way for us to  structure this conversation is, is again, like I say, we really get to see how this  plays out in real time and in real life examples pretty regularly. So.
00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:39.519
And not all of them are pretty.
00:05:39.519 --> 00:07:17.000
No, they're not. so I think what I want us to do is I want us to actually talk about almost  like four, like four different examples of what it of how this kind of plays out. So like one of the  ways that you and I were talking, was that it's almost like, you know, if you break this down,  the interaction between culture and strategy, it's almost like you've got like a four  like four cell grid. Yeah, yeah. Four quadrants where you have you know, like, like culture on,  on the X axis and you've got strategy on the Y axis and you've. And so you. So in the quadrants  there's like no culture, no strategy. Then you have, you know, kind of on the, on the bottom  corner and then on the top corner you've got culture and strategy and then you've got culture,  no strategy and strategy, no culture. Right. So it's almost like that, that breakdown is  something that, is something that we. I think it's kind of an interesting way to think about, about  the dynamics between culture and strategy. And So what I want us to do is I want us to actually  talk about things that we like real clients that we've actually seen that fit within those  four quadrants. And I think that I'm hoping by us recanting or like these real life examples might  actually make for you listening to. See there's really, you know, this, this simple statement of  culture eats strategy for breakfast is so powerful and so real and hopefully that it might give you  a new perspective in the way that you see how culture and strategy kind of align and interact.
00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:20.959
Yeah. So let's. Where do you want to start?
00:07:20.959 --> 00:07:40.079
Because yeah, I think the a natural place to start is seeing no culture and no strategy.  and I have to say this is something that I think we see probably the most when we start working
00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:52.000
with at the beginning. Yeah. Usually I mean we see, I don't know if we see this  most because oftentimes when clients are coming to us, they kind of have a plan.
00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:53.120
That's true.
00:07:53.120 --> 00:08:04.319
but we, we see it very often. I think I would argue with you that we,  we probably see the no culture, some semblance of a of a budding strategy.
00:08:04.319 --> 00:08:52.039
Well the, the reality is. Okay, again we talked about this  in the, in past previous episodes about the culture kind of clients we work with, work  with clients going through growth, going through merger and going through disruption. Right. And  clients going through growth always have a strategy. Clients going through merger have,  have a degree of a strategy. It's often very like big picture and like almost like goals  at the end more so than actual how we're going to get There clients going through disruption.  Almost a. A key factor in disruption is their strategy has blown up because  of the disruption and they no longer have a working. They had one, but it is. It has been  set on fire based on whatever the disruption is. Right. So when I say we see it the most,
00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:55.159
I think in that context. Absolutely.
00:08:55.159 --> 00:09:06.399
Yeah. Because we tend to have a lot more clients coming to us with disruption. well,  I shouldn't say we tend to. Recently, I think we definitely say we've had more  clients coming to us with this rush because the.
00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:13.320
There has been a lot of disruption in the business environment. Yeah, across North America.
00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:14.399
Exactly. Yeah.
00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:26.559
So. So yeah, we don't really need to get into too many specifics. I think  most people can think of one or two examples of something that might be disrupting global trade.
00:09:26.559 --> 00:10:19.919
Right? Absolutely. Yes. And all the pressures that go along with it. So,  so let's. So let's talk about what we actually see real life. When it comes to an organization that  for whatever reason is experiencing no culture and no strategy. I mean, I think one of the things  that really stands out to me. And again, there's a client that we work with not that long ago,  who, when we first started with them, when we kind of did our initial assessments, the things that we  saw were quite concerning. It was things like we saw, you know, everyone was looking to jump ship.  There was a real lack of understanding about what they're supposed to be doing,  how their jobs interacted with each other, why they were doing their jobs to begin with.
00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:37.519
leadership team was fractured. Oh yeah, they were. They were fully on into,  not into the silos. They were, well, more strongholds. Right. They were actively  protecting their, program, their department. Again, departments were at war with each
00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:38.559
other in some of them. Right.
00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:52.960
For resources, for support, for the goodwill of the former, executive at the time  who seemed to change their tune to. Based on whomever they were speaking with, in the moment.
00:10:52.960 --> 00:12:22.080
Right. Yeah, that's right. And what this was causing was this was causing that level of  self preservation that. And we were. We really dug into the dangers behind self preservation  kind of at the end of last season. So I mean, that's something that if you're like wondering,  oh, self preservation really, really bad, then listen to that episode. but really that's what  it was. It had people owe for themselves that had people like, willing to stab each other in the  back. Part of it was the nature of that stronghold culture that was created. And they. But they also  weren't really sure if they were going to have a job next year or if the department was going  to be defunded and shut down or just because they did not know what the, the future was  going to hold for them because of whatever it was that caused their strategy to not exist. Right.  And the thing that was really interesting was there was a lot of jockeying for position to  try to be Almost like filling any kind of like void or any kind of power vacuum that  might have existed from. Because there was a lot of turnover and stuff like that and  a lot of informal power structures really kind of started to merge a bubble to the top. And it was,  it was a really toxic place and anyone that had an opportunity to kind of go somewhere else really  did. And it was something that like, you know this again, this was one of the worst examples  that we've seen in a while. But by no means was it a unique and standalone. And standalone example.
00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:50.840
It was. Well, I mean there's a reason why we are bringing it forward as the hallmark  of no culture, no strategy because it was a more extreme example than some that we've seen. And  I mean, and I don't want to paint all of that like the individuals. Then I, I mean most my,  our dealings were with the leadership team. They, they really wanted to protect their team.
00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:51.440
Yes.
00:12:51.440 --> 00:13:10.937
They had very good mentality around My role as a leader is to support my team and protect  my team. But unfortunately previous leadership that meant that I had to. It was a zero sum game.
00:13:10.937 --> 00:13:10.951
Right.
00:13:10.951 --> 00:13:15.120
If somebody, if a different department got something, it meant that I lost.
00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:15.960
Yeah.
00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:42.000
And that was the culture that existed at the executive level. So that was the culture  that existed in the leadership level. That's the culture that exists in the management level. And  that is a culture that exists through the front line. You're the way leaders approach the develop  and reinforce the culture is how it's going to be felt throughout the entire organization.
00:13:42.000 --> 00:14:03.960
Yeah. And the thing was is that you know, because like, and they, there was no  collaboration. They wouldn't work together because they didn't really know how their department  relied on the other department that if they were going to the Department of Resources, the other  department would shut them down or they're trying to do something that would be outside of the scope  of their team. There was so much bad blood that they would just. They were out for each other.
00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:13.960
There was no trust. No, no grace, no hey,  let's figure this out together. It was purely adversarial and protectionism.
00:14:13.960 --> 00:15:03.960
Right. And the thing was is that because part of it was, was that again, in, in this case,  the, the. The. It wasn't just that there was an example of a bad leadership. It was almost like,  I think the leadership evolved or devolved because of this. Almost  like the catalyst for the culture may have started from weakening consistent leadership,  but then almost like that wave almost built its own inertia and the leader got swept up  into it. And then the lack of direction just kind of made this so much worse. Because it  wasn't even just that the organization didn't have. You don't need. It's not just a bad  leader that makes an audition fail. It's often people just don't have what they need to be  successful. That they can't be successful if they don't have what they need. Right.
00:15:03.960 --> 00:16:00.080
And it's not that the leader was a terrible person. No,  they're actually quite a nice person. But they were wholly ill equipped to handle the, the scale  of the growth that had happened. the level of responsibility that had changed. The. I mean,  kind of. We've talked about the technical founder paradox many times and it. There's  a reason why we keep coming back to that. Well, because we see it so often in that the skills and  abilities that had made you successful early on and that helped to build the organization,  eventually you're going to hit a wall. And that's what happened. And this. There  was never any recognition that I can't do things the way that I could when we. When  it was a much smaller organization. I need to adjust, I need to grow, I need to learn, need  to develop my own skills so that I can support the leadership team in developing their skills.
00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:38.440
Yeah, absolutely. But, yeah, so, again, I don't want to dwell on this one thing  because I think most people can understand the difficulty that's going to happen with no culture,  no strategy. But I kind of want to leave it with this, with this one point that, like, to summarize  it, the idea is that, like, when you're in a situation and there is no culture in this strategy  and no one defines success, everybody will invent their own definition of success. And if, again,  if there's no culture to bind people, they'll often define their new definition of success at  the expense of other people. I think that's the thesis statement of no culture and no strategy.
00:16:38.440 --> 00:16:39.399
Yeah.
00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:48.320
So let's move on. I think the natural next thing to talk to is the other extreme,  which is what happens when you have culture and you have strategy.
00:16:48.320 --> 00:17:00.639
Yeah. And this is something that we do actually get to see. Which is exciting. usually  if we've done our jobs well, it's what we get to see as we are on our way out.
00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:03.200
Yes, that's true. Yeah.
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:40.720
This is, but this is what we aim to build in organizations. Right. the,  the key here is that it's always has, it always has to be a work in progress.  and it's why building capacity internally and it's why, it's another reason why we  really focus on the data driven analytics, and the work that we do because we want to  make sure that we have a good, pulse on what's actually happening within the organization.
00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:48.759
The whole point of, of the question that we went out, we went over in great detail  in the first episode of this of season five, which is what needs to exist first.
00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:49.440
Yeah.
00:17:49.440 --> 00:18:04.119
Or this will be successful. And again that's, that's, that,  that's the heart of it because we're trying to figure out what needs to exist first  before the culture will be successful and the strategy will be successful. And that  comes from the data and the analytics and the investigation and the work that we do. Right.
00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:39.559
Yeah. And what's exciting with having both culture and strategy, especially when you get  to be a part of the change, to be able to actually see the difference in the way that people interact  with each other. It's not that everything's perfect. Far from it. I mean, I'm thinking about  a, you know, recent example of an organization that we exited. It's far from perfect,  but it is so much further along than where it was when we started the engagement with them. Right.
00:18:39.559 --> 00:18:41.519
Well, the momentum was behind them.
00:18:41.519 --> 00:19:17.359
Everyone's looking, momentum is behind it. There's actually like, people are willing  to give leadership the benefit of the doubt. There's a willingness to actually talk through,  situations. There's a willingness to, bring problems or challenges to the leadership and say,  and work through a collaborative, solution to the problems. Rather than previously,  it would be immediately people would shut down or there would be an. It  would be accusatory or it would be a, here's a problem, it's your problem, go fix it. I'm done.
00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:17.880
Yeah.
00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:25.738
Right. Like it really was a much more adversarial m. Yeah. Approach to things.
00:19:25.738 --> 00:19:25.750
Yeah.
00:19:25.750 --> 00:20:03.200
And it's not just that the culture had changed, but the culture had changed at  the same time that we looked at, okay, what do we want to be a year from now,  three years from now, five years from now? Because if we could actually get every,  if we could get people to stop the adversarial nature, to give each other the benefit of the  doubt, to work on, to actively work on some of those pieces that were causing so much  friction in the first place. And then rally people around a. And here's how we're going  to maintain it. Here's where we want to go in the future and we want you to be a part of it.
00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:04.000
Right.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:35.920
The plan and the culture together has really changed how that environment operates,  how that organization operates. It's made it better for the managers and the leaders and it's  made it better for the staff. And that is a really exciting place to be and to, to. I mean. And we  don't get to work long term in that environment because we go on to the next disruption or the  next growth or the next, merger, which is also a lot of fun and keeps us from getting bored.
00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:36.400
Right.
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:41.839
But it is really, it is really exciting to actually see that transformation.
00:20:41.839 --> 00:22:30.799
It is. And what I always like about it is, is that people are optimistic about their  work. They're optimistic about the future of the organization. There's a renewed sense of clarity  around what it is that they're, why they're there and what they're doing. And again, like success  is universally understood and people, you know, people enjoy. Well, not enjoy, but people are  successful working together. They may not enjoy it, they may not like everybody, they don't like  everybody, but they, but they're, they're able to successfully work together consistently and  sustainably. Right. And because again, like, which again, not to, not to make this episode all about  psychology, even though I want to every episode. but it's the idea of like, you know, there is  psychological value when you bring clarity that a lot that comes from a clear strategy. When  you create a culture that people feel like they belong, there's a sense of appreciation of their  work and those around them which, which again then those two things together allows for the  people to find meaning in their work. They know where they're going and they're joy and they're  doing their work, which fills us with a sense of purpose and then that allows us to trust each  other and trust a leadership and everyone takes care of each other and, and there is a sense of  self sustaining, you know, almost like, you know, motion that, that comes from those levels of, of  again of that sense of clarity and belonging kind of like combined together. And it is a sense that,  you know, like, it is a sense that there are very predictable benefits when you have culture  and Strategy align. And it's something that, you know, which is why, like we say, it's always kind  of the cornerstone of the goal that, that we, we try to hit, when we go into a new organization.
00:22:30.799 --> 00:23:23.359
Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the clarity piece, because what comes up for me, I mean, it's  something again, broken, record, but it's clear expectations and consistency. Right. if people can  rely, if people know what's expected of them and you're consistent in those expectations and you're  cons in those expectations, across the board. Not just like, it's not different expectations  for different people or different rules for different people that mitigates a lot of problems.  it's the inconsistency, the favoritism, the like. I, I, There were situations of, you know,  staff actively saying, well, I'm the, I'm the executive's favorite. I can do whatever I want  because they're my friend and I can. It's like, that does not help. Right. Doesn't help anybody.
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:24.319
Yeah.
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:41.498
Right. So there's, there really is a lot of value in, in the clarity, belonging and  the meaning and trust building those things. I mean, it's not just. And that's,  I'm gonna go off on a little bit of rant here. Surprise, surprise. I'll try to
00:23:41.498 --> 00:23:45.279
We have a lot to talk about. So don't go too long.
00:23:45.279 --> 00:24:04.057
I know, but it's, it's to the, the point that I want to make. And maybe I'll just say this  culture is not the soft, squishy stuff. It's not a intangible. It's not the, you know, it's not weak.
00:24:04.057 --> 00:24:04.070
Right.
00:24:04.070 --> 00:24:54.519
It is your business strategy. It is how you are going to be productive. It  is how you are going to be successful long term. And we see it so clearly in the work  that we do. And it frustrates me to no end to have this idea that culture is just this kind  of like a new age hippie, warm and fuzzies. Warm and fuzzies. No, it's not that. It is  actually makes a tangible difference to your bottom line because people are more productive,  they are happier, they take less time off, there's less, adversarial nature. And your  strategy that you want to implement will be done more efficiently and more effectively.
00:24:54.519 --> 00:25:02.559
Well, the thing is, is that your strategy tells people where to go. The  culture actually determines whether or not they're going to get there.
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:04.000
Yeah.
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.319
Right. So, all right.
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:06.799
Okay.
00:25:06.799 --> 00:25:29.880
So I think we, so again, I, want us to kind of get into kind of  some of the less common. So again, I think people have seen no culture, no strategy,  and how that can be a bit of a dumpster fire. I think they've seen or they've heard of that.  They can visualize what good culture, good strategy looks like when it, when  it's combined. Let's actually get into what it looks like when there's culture, but there's not  necessarily a strategy. And then afterwards, when there's a strategy, again, there's no culture.
00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:31.200
Okay.
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:55.359
So we have, we've successfully seen and worked in organizations that have a great culture  and no strategy. And this is one of those things where it is, it's kind of an interesting place to  be. because like people, you go into a company, people like, they like their jobs, they're  aligned with the mission, they enjoy their co workers, they feel affected and that they belong.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:26:08.680
But it's a nice place to work. Like, you kind of enjoy going into the client's,  environment or office because it's warm and welcoming and friendly and people get along and.
00:26:08.680 --> 00:26:16.319
Yeah, people cover each other's backs to  cover each other's shifts. They pitch in and help out. They don't complain.
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:18.799
Collaborative. Exactly. Yeah.
00:26:18.799 --> 00:27:07.440
but at the same time they're also kind of always reactive and they're not really too sure  about their direction. They know what they're doing, but they don't always know why they're  doing it. and so they end up finding their sense of meaning and purpose kind of in each other.  and in the work. And, and in the work. Right. And. But they're really unsure of their future  and there's a little bit of like existential dread that they always kind of carry with them of like,  I don't really know if we're going to have this job next year. I don't really know if we're going  to be able to adapt or. I don't really, you know, we're, we're, we've kind of always done things  this way and we don't love it, but we just don't know what else to do. And there's a real sense of,  there's a real lack of, again, clarity, lack of direction, lack of understanding.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:38.519
People tend, they tend not to think about the future because they don't have a plan.  So I focus on what can I do today to make sure that I'm taking care of,  my team's taken care of. The, work is getting done and we're getting through  the day together. They're really like the example that I'm thinking about, it's so  interesting to me because I would not necessarily consider it the most productive environment.
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:39.279
Yeah.
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:43.200
I mean, stuff gets done and they do their jobs well and they.
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:46.160
You're talking about a client that we work with before.
00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:56.240
Yeah. I mean, wonderful people who take care of each other and who,  when problems come up, they solve them.
00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:56.839
Right.
00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:00.400
They. They will respond, they will react and
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:03.359
they'll come together and they will figure out a plan.
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:19.279
Nobody really wants to talk about what's next. Nobody really wants to think about what's  going to happen three years from now, five years from now, because nobody really knows what to do.
00:28:19.279 --> 00:29:02.319
Right. And. Well, actually. And, they're really conditioned to not think  about that. They're really only conditioned to think as far as the end of the week at the  most. And they don't necessarily know how they're going to operate. And I also see  that there's. There's. They develop a lot of like, coping skills and a lot of like,  problem solving skills and an awful lot of like again, collaborative and cooperational skills,  but they don't develop a lot of like, business skills or like. Or like planning skills or  system skills. They just kind of react to things as they go and they're really good  at that. But they're not necessarily. They only maybe conditioned to not think ahead.
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:17.200
Yeah. Yeah. It's very much a. Like the, The. The leadership is very much focused on,  each other and their teams and. Which is a really such a great starting point, honestly.
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:23.990
But sorry, just to clarify, I mean, we talked about with the no culture,  no strategy that they're very, very focused on their teams. Everything like to.
00:29:23.990 --> 00:29:24.079
But.
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:32.880
But they're. They're focused on. They see their,  their employees who report to them as their team, but also their peers as their team.
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:39.559
Yes, they, they like the leadership, operates as a team and looks out for each other.
00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:41.920
Right. Just as much as they'll go for those that work beneath.
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:56.400
Yeah. And that's, a really. That's a. You're. You're right. That's  a key distinction between what we talked about earlier, ah,  versus the. The silo or the stronghold mentality. Now I've completely lost my train of thought.
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:38.640
That's fine. but. But again, the thing is, is, ah, that, you know, but. But the. This. This  good culture and this good working relationship actually can hide organizational problems  usually around like business sustainability and business growth and kind of. And like, you know,  market penetration. And again, shifting and evolving with the changing needs. And this  kind of organization becomes very, like, greatly influenced by external factors because they do  well internally, but they're not looking ahead. They're not, they're not. They're  able to adapt when the time comes, but they don't know what to adapt into. Yeah, right.
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:48.960
Well, I mean, it's so much easier to avoid that  boulder rolling down the street if you actually look up and see it coming.
00:30:48.960 --> 00:31:01.160
Right? Yeah. Yeah. And again, the. So this kind of culture without the strategy,  it creates a lot of loyalty, but it doesn't create a lot of, like,  clarity and a lot of, like, momentum for growth.
00:31:01.160 --> 00:32:14.839
Yeah. And I mean, this is why, like I said, if I had to choose one,  I would choose a culture with no strategy any of the day of the week. one. Because it's a  much more fun environment to actually work in. But I mean, part of it is I. The way that I'm wired,  we would immediately start working on a strategy. but it is, it is a much better starting point.  It is a much stronger foundation to build from because you can more easily rally people around  a common goal. Because there's already a higher level of trust. There's already a  sense that we belong as part of this team, as part of this organization,  and that we have each other's backs. And now we're going to do things a little bit  more intentionally to make sure that we can have each other's backs for the long term,  that we can continue along this path and that we can grow and increase our impact. And the, the  buy in that you can generate is so much easier, when you have a starting point based on trust.
00:32:14.839 --> 00:32:26.799
Right. And the thing is, a business that operates this way is functional,  is effective, but unfortunately is at risk based on shifting market conditions.
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:27.599
Oh. Yeah.
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:43.119
So, I mean, it's an issue. But they are, but they are, like you said,  they're more able to adapt, they're more able to pivot, they're more able to get  alignment. The change is a lot easier. So when they're given that direction,  they can, they can enact it. But, but, but they, but they still are at risk.
00:32:43.119 --> 00:32:52.519
Yeah. Well, I mean, and you're right. And there's a reason why we were  still brought in. Right. It's not that everything was rosy and everything was  going perfectly well. It's that they had a much better starting point.
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:53.200
Oh, yeah.
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:53.599
That.
00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:56.559
The work was so much easier and
00:32:56.559 --> 00:33:34.480
the change was so much easier. Yeah. I mean, there are significant contrasts Between,  I mean, I keep going back to the contrast of walking into  that environment versus the contrast of walking into other environments and how  welcomed as an external now, random consultant we were into one space versus the fear and anxiety of  are these people just coming in to cut jobs or are these people coming in to actually help us  progress and take us to the next level and level up our game and help us to do more?
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:43.079
Yeah, right, exactly. And that's just it,  that the people were open and willing to the change as opposed to being immediately combative.
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:43.680
Yeah.
00:33:43.680 --> 00:34:32.800
So let's move on to. Okay, so again, the culture and no strategies is not a great scenario,  but it's not a terrible scenario. No, let's move on to the no culture but with strategy. Okay,  now this we've seen a lot and we've seen probably these more in the ones  that are in the growth phase or in the merger phase. just because they, again,  they usually have a very strong clear plan. But sometimes that plan has not been designed  to actually include the people as much. And it's often. And sometimes the plan,  in some places we've been to the plan is despite the people. but, but yeah,  but again like in these kind of organizations, the work gets done, but the work gets done often  to the bare minimum. Like they'll do just enough to, to meet the goal or the work gets
00:34:32.800 --> 00:35:19.360
piled on to one or two linchpin people or like it's. We. There's a lot of,  There's. Well, I mean, big surprise. There's a lot of challenges that come with a lack or  a weak or a poor culture. the plan helps because at least it points, it tells people where to what  we're working towards. Right. It gives you some semblance of I'm doing this for a reason. Even  if it's soul sucking. I at least know why I'm doing it and it helps me, helps get me  through the day because there's a plan in place we're working towards. I can measure progress.  I know what I have to do and I'll just keep my head down and get through it.
00:35:19.360 --> 00:37:36.159
Right? Yeah. But the thing is about those people, they don't push themselves. There's no  sense of, of there's no plan longevity to work there. Like they're, they're only there until  something better comes along. like I say, there's there, there, there is clarity, but there's no  desire for people to really kind of like work with other people or to again, improve or level  up their own game or the skill sets or, you know, like the. And sometimes again, the strategy can be  built with, you know, despite the people rather than with the people in mind. And the thing is  that people will stay. They don't. a lot of it is. There's not a lot of great work that happens  and the work is a lot slower and the work is very like, almost like leadership directed and driven  and like watched and monitored, because they can't trust the people to actually do the full extent of  the job. The longer the job, the letter. And they won't often work together without some kind of  leadership or supervisory intervention because people don't trust each other enough. They'll  stay in their lane and they'll work together when they have to. But it has, but it has to be really  well monitored. And this whole environment, again, like, there's lots of companies that operate this  way. But what they don't realize that they're really sitting on a powder keg is that when a  sense of, when that clarity is all that they're clinging to, when the market shifts and the  strategy blows up, that's when then they have nothing going for them and they turn into our,  first example really quickly. And that, and that I think is probably the most impactful reason  is that what makes this situation different from the dumpster fire we talked about very,  very first is the strategy is working. But that is assuming whatever the strategy is built on,  whether it's built on current market conditions, current, you know, like governmental, direction.  Current, again, employee based linchpin or, or, or a manager or sorry, ah, executive, like CEO  with a really clear leadership direction. If any of that blows up, the strategy goes away and has  nothing to fall back on, no foundation and turns into the dumpster fire we talked about earlier.
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:39.760
Yeah, I mean this is the type of environment that tends to burn people out.
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:40.559
Yeah.
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:58.480
Right. Because there's, there's high expectations, there's, which is good. There's  a clear, goal that we are, there's a plan in place. We know what we are working towards.  here's your marching orders. Go do it. But the environment does not support the people.
00:37:58.480 --> 00:37:59.360
Right.
00:37:59.360 --> 00:39:10.480
And so we see burnout. We see. I mean you, I think you m, you said it,  just a minute ago. Those who have options tend to leave. Right. Your high performers,  especially if they become your linchpin are. This is the type of environment that tends to  drive them away. Because unless that additional level of responsibility, the additional, like,  unless there's Some recognition and usually it comes in the form of pay. In this type of  environment, those people will only adhere to the mission of the organization for so long  before it be burns them out before they start looking around and go, why am I the only one  who actually cares about this work? Why am I the one who always gets dumped with this additional  responsibility? Or why is the success of this entire plan resting on my shoulders instead of  the rest of the leadership team team or the rest of the department or whatever environment it is?
00:39:10.480 --> 00:40:01.000
Right. Well, the thing is, is that like when you're in an environment that has a clear  strategy and a poor culture, people can execute the strategy. People will execute the strategy.  It's their job and they'll follow their job. But if they don't believe in it, they don't believe in  each other. They don't believe in the mission, they don't believe in the environment. They'll  only do it for so long because the strategy guides the behavior. But you need the cultural piece to  sustain that behavior. Otherwise like you said, it's burnout. It's. There's poor trust. You'll see  turnover, you'll see, you'll see resentment and you'll see frustration. And then, and, and this,  and this is kind of creating that powder keg that I mentioned. That it just takes  that strategy being d. Like validated and the whole thing just explodes on the powder keg.
00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:03.599
Yeah, it kind of feels like a host of cards.
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:04.320
Yeah.
00:40:04.320 --> 00:41:20.079
it. A change in wins, again, the whole thing can come tumbling down. It. I  think a lot of people would be ex. Would like this unfortunately, I think is an experience  that a lot of people have of a. Working in an environment that has pretty clearly defined goals.  they have, you know, whether they do annual or you know, biannual business planning,  you know, whatever their growth strategy may be, whether it's a acquisition ah, model or it's a  new markets or it's expansion ah, into you know, developing their market penetration in  their existing markets or market share I should say. it, it's pretty common to have like we,  we train business leaders to think about strategy, to think about business planning, to think about  how am I going to go from you know, 5 million in sales to 10 million in sales, from 10 million in  sales to 50 million in sales. Right. We, we, we train people, we train leaders to think about,  to execute, to develop a plan and execute. And that's a good thing. That is a good skill to have.
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:21.480
Yes. You want that?
00:41:21.480 --> 00:42:07.840
Absolutely. That I Don't like, there is no devaluing that because that, you need that  in order to grow and scale a company. But it's half the picture. And you can, you can get your,  you can build a company, on strategy, with no culture and a lot of people do. But are you  building a sustainable company? are you building a company that can weather the storm that's coming?  When you hit those disruptions that we've talked about that we end up dealing with, when you hit  massive changes in the business environment, are your people prepared to change with you?
00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:27.599
Right, yeah, exactly. And the thing is that when you look at these  four scenarios from a risk management perspective,  that the no culture, no strategy is. Risks are everywhere. I mean, I mean it's just like
00:42:27.599 --> 00:42:29.840
it's red flags up and down the field.
00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:51.480
Yeah, exactly. There's no other color than red flags. when you're looking  at an environment that has no culture but has a good strategy, like we just talked about,  there is a significant number, amount of risk there. Like I said, it's your,  your work environment, your success, your trajectory, your momentum is brittle.
00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:52.480
Yeah.
00:42:52.480 --> 00:43:07.800
And that, and I like the word in this situation. I like the word brittle  more so than like the word weak because it implies that it will  hold until it's challenged. and then it could, and then it could crumble.
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:11.440
Yeah. I mean, unopposed. It's likely to stand.
00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:13.360
Right? Yes, exactly.
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:14.000
Yeah.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:44:30.280
And, but like it's a hope and a prayer. when you have a good culture and you have,  and you have no strategy, there's again, there's, there's risks there. But the, but the idea is,  is that it's, it's a, it's a, it's risk of missed opportunity. And potentially in the worst case  scenario, it's a risk of becoming obsolete. If you've really been ignoring the signs and  ignoring the conditions, ignoring the stresses for two or the, the directions for too long,  there is the ultimate risk of becoming obsolete. Yeah, but it just takes small interventions of  being given some clarity, being given some directions, being given some insight to turn  the ship around quite quickly and to remove those risks. The risk management is so much easier in  that environment. And when you have great culture and great strategy, you've really, you're,  you're probably constantly in de risking mode and you're actually, and you're, it becomes kind of  self generated. The people are removing their risks and the strategies, removing the cult,  the, the, the conditions, risks. And there's a lot of risk management that Built into this,  the inertia, the momentum of your trajectory. And that's just the way that it, that it works.
00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:43.664
And it's not that nothing can tear down the hosts when you have both strategy and culture.  It's that you've got a solid foundation to withstand the winds, to withstand the.
00:44:43.664 --> 00:44:44.480
And the predictive nature.
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:44.920
Right.
00:44:44.920 --> 00:44:47.000
And the predictive nature of looking ahead. Right.
00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:47.519
Yeah.
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:47.960
Because.
00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:55.599
And if you're constantly. It does. I do want to reinforce though,  it's not a, it's not a destination.
00:44:55.599 --> 00:44:56.480
Right.
00:44:56.480 --> 00:45:46.880
Culture, an organization that has both a good culture and a good strategy is not  a place that you reach and then you sit back and enjoy. It is something that you have to actively  continue to work on both your strategy and your culture, looking forward, seeing what's coming,  responding to the changing environments that we find ourselves in. It's that the people. If you  are constantly working on your culture as well, you're more likely to have your people make those  changes with you. You're more likely going to be, you're going to be given the benefit of the doubt  when, you have to make, challenging decisions. you. It is a lot of work, but it's your business.
00:45:46.880 --> 00:45:47.920
It. Yeah.
00:45:47.920 --> 00:45:54.280
It deserves the time, energy and effort to build a solid foundation.
00:45:54.280 --> 00:47:13.920
Yeah. I think the one thing I want to leave folks with is the idea of if you're  wondering what is the canary in the coal mine for, Whether or not we have a good culture or  whether or not we have a good strategy, I would say the, the real test of having a good strategy  is around do people know what they're doing, why they're doing it and how it plays into the big  picture. And if they don't, then there's probably weakness in your strategy that you might want to,  to secure if you want to know. So the real test of culture, I guess it's really what happens when  leadership's not in the room. If someone's, if leadership is not monitoring them or, you know,  or whatever. I think that's probably the canary in the coal mine or whether or not people, people  happen. And. But I think what's interesting about those two. Just little canaries to test. They're,  they're about the, the people, the everyday, the front line, the workers, the, you know,  and that. That's where those, that's where those exist. And I also really want to iterate that. I  hope no one is taking the, the position that we're saying the culture replaces strategy. It does not.
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:14.719
No.
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:31.039
And, but strategy does not replace culture. Either. These are  two separate things that solve different problems that are essential to a robust  and strong business that's sustainable. And you really need to have both. But the,
00:47:31.039 --> 00:48:09.599
But, I mean, I said it in my intro too, and I'll say it again. Plan  beats no plan every day of the week. Yeah, you have to have a plan of how you're going  to achieve your goals. First of all, you need to have goals. Let's. Let's start there. But,  you have to have a plan. You have to know where you're going. You have to have a  direction. And that direction needs to be intentional. And if it's not intentional,  then that's a problem. That's what plan beats. No plan. But it's the execution of your plan, the  implementation of your plan, the sustainability of your plan is reinforced by your culture.
00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:24.400
Exactly. Okay, so I think that about does it for us. For a full archive  of the podcast and access the video version hosted on our YouTube channel,  visit Roman.3ca/podcast. Thanks for joining us.
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:43.119
For more information on topics like these, don't forget to Visit  us at Roman3.ca. Side effects of this podcast may include improved retention,  high productivity, increased market share, employees breaking out in spontaneous dance,  dry mouth, aversion to the sound of James voice, desire to find a better podcast…