speaker-1: Hoi peeps, welcome to another episode of Dead to Dead for the podcast about everyday video game developers and why they do what they do, every day. This week, season two, episode six, is with UX and UI designer, Johnny White. Johnny and I worked together very briefly at ZOS, not anywhere near as much as I would have liked. We were both on the same project at ZOS, but I knew very little about Johnny, so this was really great opportunity to dig into his history. Fascinating exploration of someone who grew up in a particular part of the US that clearly influenced both the games that he played and the way he viewed games and how that seems to have kind of fueled him throughout his career both in moves that he's made and avenues that he's pursued and the way the games have defined him. So it was a wicked conversation, really enjoyed it. I really like Johnny, he's a great chap. Big proponent of GDC, just spent his fifth year helping there. So you're very much part of the fabric of GDC at this point. So it's a great conversation. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. As always, Dev2Dev is on Patreon. Please like and join that if you can. really helps me out. also on Instagram, Blue Sky, YouTube, LinkedIn. I try and post the episodes around. There's also a blog on WordPress. I share all those links when they come out. Please like and share them if you can. It really helps to get the word out. It helps to slowly spread this podcast as far as it can go. Thank you for everyone that's engaged so far. think thank you to everyone that's reached out and you know with kind messages and positive feedback. I really appreciate it. I love doing this show. It's so much fun. I want to keep doing it. But yeah, thank you. And of course, thank you to Johnny for spending the time. So let's sit back and listen in to another episode of Dev2Dev with Johnny White. did work together very briefly. I don't feel like we got to work together anywhere near enough in that time while we on Blackbird, but I appreciate you taking the time and joining me for a chat. I'm excited to dig into you. I know none of your history outside of the few years that we worked together, so I'm excited to kind of dig into that. That's great. But I always like to start this conversation with my favorite question. What first inspired you about video games?
speaker-0: Hmm, okay. Well, I guess I'll go like way all the way back to start and ⁓ I my first memory that I have Just in my life is playing ⁓ Duck Hunt at my grandma's house my grand-grand with my uncle I guess he had an NES and I was two years old something like that And I was always super hyped to go over to grand-grand's house so I could sit in front of the TV and play Duck Hunt. And it was also that like cartridge that had Super Mario Bros on it as well. So I just play the hell out of both of those games. I don't even want to know like what my hour count is on those two games. I probably play more Duck Hunt than like anybody alive, but that's like my earliest memory. And so that was a really influential thing on me sort of going through the rest of my life. And then just as I got older and got more into games, know, I got my first game console, which was a GameCube, got a DS and all those sorts of things. That's when I really started to just like dive really deep into games. And I was just buying all sorts of nonsense. I am glad that at least my collection has like some really good games in it, but there's a lot of trash also. Lots of like Nickelodeon like. branded games and stuff like that. So I was always playing games through like my whole childhood. And then, you know, once it kind of came to teenager, I mean, that was a way that I connected with like people around me. Like that's how I made just about all of my friends, you know, going into my teenage years was because we were all gamers and we all played games. And at that time, this is sort of like 2014, gaming was definitely big. you know, it was sort of starting to take off, especially with like Call of Duty and things like that. But it wasn't, it was still a situation where like you could get made fun of at school from being a gamer still. So there was like a camaraderie, a sort of a misfit thing going on between all the different people at school who played games, especially because, you know, I've mentioned, like I mentioned to you earlier, I'm from Alabama in the South. you know, whatever amount of like tech literacy, you know, there is in the rest of the United States, there is way less in Alabama as well. mean, we didn't have any programming classes or things like that. know, like the tech kind of takes a long time to get down there. So all those trends were really slow to develop. even at that time, you know, being a gamer brought a lot of people together and a lot of my friends that are still my friends now that I game with all the time. I I would say that was probably the biggest thing that inspired me to even... Consider pursuing games like even really think seriously about it. You know, I was really interested in game design specifically So, you know just watching hours and hours and hours tons of like videos on YouTube and stuff and reading books and all those sorts of things and then eventually the The telling moment I guess was my senior year in high schools. This is like 2018 And I realized that oh no, I need to go to college and I have no idea what I'm gonna do I thought maybe I was gonna be a musician, ⁓ but then I kind of didn't really want to make that my full-time job. So I was like, okay, well, what am I gonna do? I don't really wanna be like an accountant. ⁓ So ⁓ I actually played Breath of the Wild that year, Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild. And that was the game that kind of everything clicked for me. And it was like, wait, there's actually so much more that like goes behind this. was like that like moment where I could. see a little bit behind the curtain because I had studied design enough that I could play that game and I could appreciate it from a design standpoint and not just from like a game or having fun playing it. I was just really impressed with the development and how they were able to design and create such an amazing in-depth and engaging world. So that was kind of the moment where I was like, okay, maybe I can actually do this as a career. and try to make something like that happen for myself.
speaker-1: Love that. That's such a fascinating start to your story. Firstly, the NES was pretty old when you were sitting down and playing it for the first time. What was it about that that kind of connected with you so quickly?
speaker-0: Hmm, that's a great question. think I think the visuals really had a lot to do with it Like the 8-bit style of everything like just really connected with me for some reason I think a lot of people have that same sort of attraction to that era I think it's maybe something I think something in my brain even when I was very young was like longing for that sort of era, the 80s era of like, you know, style and music and everything. And I got super into like 80s culture like later on when I was a teenager. Yeah, I was in like a rock band and we were playing like hair metal, hair bands and things like that. So I think that era of time, it's sort of like a time capsule of what the world was like in 1987, I think is when is when both of those games came out. ⁓ I think the visuals really sold that in some way. Like I think even now you see so many indie games that are in that retro style. think everybody has some sort of connection to that era, even when they obviously were not born in that era. They obviously didn't live through it, but there's something kind of, there's some mystique. It almost feels like things were just like really... Cool and happier and fun and there's neon everywhere and there's you know, like tears for fears on the radio and something about that is just like longing for like a really happy fun time where everything felt like it's gonna be okay. ⁓ And I think that still really connects with people with how many games come out in that style today kind of imitating it.
speaker-1: That's so cool, it's almost like longing for an era that you didn't get to experience, rather than nostalgia for an era long
speaker-0: Exactly. Yes, that's exactly what it is.
speaker-1: Right, interesting. Okay. And then it sounds like you were kind of a Nintendo kid. Then, know, the NES inspired you, but then DS GameCube, you kind of, you were a Nintendo fan and that was your favorite company, your favorite games, yeah.
speaker-0: I would say, I would go as far as to say I was a Nintendo shill. I pretty much bought and consumed everything that Nintendo made for probably like 10 years. I was like huge super fan of Nintendo. I was also a huge ⁓ Sonic fan as well. And really anything sort of adjacent to that, played every Mario game, played every Zelda game. I didn't get into Pokemon. weirdly, which, you know, people give me a lot of crap about. But it was just, I don't know, there's something about Nintendo games that it's like, makes you feel like you're a child playing the game. It's like, when you are a child, it's like, this is made for me. It's like, this is something that was made specifically for me and appeals to me. And even if, you know, the adults around me don't really get it. And even if some of the kids around me don't really get it, I get it, and it's for me, and I get so much out of it. ⁓ Yeah, on when I started to become a game developer, that was kind of my dream, was like, I'm gonna work for Nintendo. ⁓ And so when I went to college, I pretty much decided that choice off of the founder of our ⁓ university. I went to DigiPen Institute of Technology, which is in Redmond, Washington, and it was founded by Claude Comare, who was one of the founding members of the American branch of Nintendo. And they were developing games like they made like 1080 Avalanche on the GameCube. They made the Wave Race game on the GameCube. They made some games for the DS as well, like the sort of like little toy Mario games. And I played all those games growing up and loved them. And I was like, wait, this guy. like made this school. The guy who made all the games has sort of inspired me to go on this whole 18 year journey to get to this point. He made all these games and this is his school where he's gonna teach me how to do the same thing. So I pretty much decided to go to that university based off of that choice. It was only after my first year that I realized like, ⁓ wait, Nintendo is in Japan. and I don't speak Japanese and I'm not Japanese. So I think I'm maybe not gonna be able to work on the new Mario game. So that was a little ⁓ disappointing reality check moment, ⁓ but it's okay because I feel like I'm, that's one of those things like Nintendo is like, you don't really wanna touch it. It's like as an adult, I don't wanna really like touch it and see what is happening. behind the scenes. You have all these moments with game dev and game design where once you learn how something works or how something's designed, you can't unlearn it. Once that curtain's pulled back, it's really hard to pull the curtain and close it again and have that mystique of what are they really doing? How did they make this game when you really get into the nitty gritty of it? So I actually don't wanna know what they do. I actually don't wanna be part of their... their team because I just want to be able to continue experiencing that as an adult and just appreciate it from the other side of the world, like what they're doing over there.
speaker-1: Just continue to consume and enjoy rather than risk any, take any chance of spoiling it.
speaker-0: Exactly, like so many games have already been ruined for me because of this. I'm like no, we need to keep keep that one at least
speaker-1: Yeah. Well, I want to dig into that moment of ⁓ learning about video games through consuming media and then having that light bulb moment with Zelda. ⁓ you mentioned growing up the South, growing up in Alabama, did you have any other family that were gamers around you? Or was it just you?
speaker-0: I did have one family member, it was my cousin, and he had a GameCube. And so I went over to his house and played Sonic Heroes and Mario Kart Double Dash. I actually, I actually like was a bit of a kleptomaniac when I was a kid. So I kind of just like pocketed his Sonic Heroes game thinking that I could like take it home and like put it in my in my DS for some reason, you know, just the kids, kids things. And then eventually I had to like give it back to him basically because I wanted to play it again and I didn't have a GameCube and I had to be like, ⁓ look, I found this under my couch kind of thing. But really I just stole it from him. I was like four years old. ⁓ He was probably the only family member like in any part of my family that was a gamer other than my uncle. who was the one who had the NES. I don't know if I'd say he was a gamer, he, cause he really only had the NES and the one cartridge. ⁓ So it was kind of like, he showed me the ropes and then I kind of took it and ran with it. ⁓ I am glad to say that once I did sort of get into gaming, I did have more of my family that would, you know, they'd buy me games and they would kind of... ⁓ Once they figured out it was something that I was really into so that was kind of nice But I wouldn't say I really had anyone in my family that like was a gamer was there all the time You know I hear people talk about saying like ⁓ their dad showed them this game on like the PC like Monkey Island or whatever and that's awesome ⁓ I wish I could say the same but no I was pretty much the only one doing it and you know some some of my family thought I was kind of weird ⁓ Especially when I decided when I was like, yeah I'm gonna move across the country and make a video games and they're like Did they like pay you to do that? Like you can get paid to make video games and I'm like, yeah It actually makes more money than movies do ⁓ And then they kind of got on board with it after that but Yeah, it was really just my cousin. I would say I think another memory I had as well was playing ⁓ playing Modern Warfare 2 at his house ⁓ when I definitely should not have been allowed to play that game. And then I, so I somehow convinced my parents to buy me that game afterwards. Don't know how I managed to do that. I think I was like nine. So, you know, that was a a little a silver tongue, nine year old Johnny, you know, figuring out how to get, get all of the M rated games that he wanted.
speaker-1: Yeah, got it. it sounds like, yeah, maybe one little inspiration from a cousin, but video games kind of hooked you and became your passion, you know, on your own almost. And you mentioned, you know, kind of finding some friends that kind of fostered that as well as you got a little older,
speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. this I have this kind of like a ⁓ theme, I guess, like throughout my life of like a sort of the misfit, rebellious, like punk sort of vibes on things. ⁓ For whatever reason, I guess I've just always been sort of attracted to whatever the thing is that that ⁓ the people around me are not doing. ⁓ At least growing up in the South, you know, like once I left the South and I moved to Washington and lived in Seattle. I mean, things definitely changed there. I was way more like in the culture of like what that city and what the people on the West Coast are about. I definitely fit in a lot better there, but I definitely did not fit in like that at all when I was in Alabama. was a very, it was very, very tough at times kind of being like the only person in town that's into this thing. ⁓ And it wasn't just games either, you know, it was like, you know, I watched anime and people weren't really into anime and I was like a played, you know, rock guitar in a band. at that time, people were not really into that. It was kind of a weird thing, at least in the, you know, the place where I grew up. So I kind of had that theme a little bit of like, you know, when I was getting into games, I was really the only kid in school that was super into them. So. That's kind of how I found Connection was like if I could find another purchase, one other person that was into the same weird stuff that I was into, then like we can be friends and we can have a good time and we can all hang out and play games together. But I, you know, I did manage to kind of convert some kids as well, you know, I mean, once you, once you get like a bunch of eight year olds together and you're like, ⁓ let's all go to my house and play Super Smash Bros Brawl. Like, okay, you got kids like jumping up and down on the couch like. like going nuts playing those kinds of games and then all of a sudden like it's over you know ⁓ I've had a negative influence on you now and now you're gonna be a gamer for the rest of your life too.
speaker-1: So it sounds like video games were like social glue for you, but it also sounds like they were identity in some ways, right? They kind of, gave you, know, they defined you in a way that was rebellious and contradictory, but you know, but gave you, you know, gave you some identity.
speaker-0: Absolutely, yeah, it's kind of weird to say where it's like I don't feel like people really think about games in that way as being like ⁓ a rebellious sort of punk rock thing ⁓ But that's just kind of the environment that that I was in I mean it was a very ⁓ I sort of repressive environment. know, it was like if you, it's a bit like if you don't fit, the nail that sticks out of the ground kind of gets hammered down. ⁓ You know, everybody wearing the same kind of clothes, everybody kind of talking the same, you know, having sort of the same interests. ⁓ And I just didn't really connect with any of those, like in an identity sense, kind of how you're saying. Like video games are absolutely like a part of my identity. It was like what I spent. most of my time doing. ⁓ And I think, you know, if you play sports, or you, you know, you do, ⁓ like music or some of these other sort of like extracurricular things, I guess, like parents a lot of time feel like, okay, well, that's a good thing for my kid to be doing because they're building towards something or they're like developing a skill that will help them later in life somehow. ⁓ But Nobody looked at video games like that. mean video games were very much considered like time wasters like you're rotting your brain, you know, I mean that's I mean there were still like news stories on TV at that time about like how awful video games were and they're destroying society and they're making kids like violent and all these things so Gaming was a big part of my identity, but I think a lot of people saw that had that perception about games and kind of place that upon me as an individual, ⁓ even though, you know, I'm pretty much just like a normal guy, just like everybody else is, I just like video games and it's,
speaker-1: It's interesting to me, Jonny, because the era that you were growing up, Saying that games were still looked down upon does feel a little backwards, right, for that era. you know, and video games being kind of the rebellious thing was very much an 80s thing. Right, in the 80s, that's what video games were. Video games were still, I mean, I would argue, late 70s, early 80s, right? Video games were still considered this weird thing, you know, that was starting to gain traction, right? It was starting to be popular, but was still kind of this outsider hobby. And to hear you grow up in kind of the, you know, early 2000s, you know, 2010s, and still have that experience, and also feel very connected to the 80s. Suddenly makes a boatload of sense to me. Maybe that's the reach.
speaker-0: That's crazy, that makes so much sense, I've never thought about that once and that makes so much sense actually. Because you're so right, because I grew up in arcades still. mean like, they were home game consoles but you really had to, ⁓ they were not cheap and you're a child so you have to get your parents to buy that for you. I don't think I could have saved up you know, allowance really to buy a GameCube for myself and buy a brand new like $60 games every week or whatever like you had to get your mom to buy that for you. So if your mom did not like that and was like, no, that's going to rot your brain then like, okay, well, I guess I just can't play games. ⁓ And I think that's why a lot of people ⁓ didn't really get into it. I mean, a lot of the people that I know from when I was a kid who were the kind of kids who would bully you for playing games, they play games constantly. know, they have the newest console and they buy the Madden and they buy Call of Duty, they buy Battlefield. mean, they're, they FIFA, you know, all of these games, they're, playing games as much as anybody is. And now, you know, I, I'm sure they wouldn't remember, you know, acting that way or having that opinion about it back in the day. But, you know, the way that things have evolved and changed is, pretty crazy. ⁓ And like the arcade, I mean, I think that's a big contributor to like why it's maybe felt like a waste of time for people or it's like, okay, you gotta go and spend some quarters and it's like a thing you go do on the weekend with your friends. But for me, it was like, I wanna go play some games and I don't have a game console. So like, I need to go to the arcade so I can kinda get my fix in on this.
speaker-1: Hmm, that's cool. So yeah, it sounds like you kind of grew up, you know, almost out of time in a way that you were playing. You started with the NES, you were playing arcade games. Yes, you you ended up with the GameCube and DS and you were kind of on the cutting edge of those consoles. But yeah, no, it's fascinating to me. you mentioned that you were also watching a lot of content, right? I guess, you know, early content on the behind the scenes stuff for video games. And that when you met Breath of the Wild, that gave you that epiphany of like, ⁓ I can make games. Talk to me about that. Like, what was it that drew you to the behind the scenes footage and how did that connect specifically with Breath of the Wild?
speaker-0: That's a great question. ⁓ You know, it really was like the early, I feel like the early era of the internet. And when I say early era, I mean sort of like the 2000s, mid 2000s was very ⁓ different than it is now. It was kind of right before everything got. sanitized and maybe corporatized and all of the sort of companies in the world realized that like, there's a lot of money to be made on the internet. ⁓ But it was still like far enough along that there were a lot of people on the internet. mean, everybody knew what the internet was, you know, there were, you know, YouTube was a thing. Roblox was a big thing. And, you know, if you went on like any of those big websites at the time, like I remember going on new grounds just all the time, every day, I would get on new grounds and look at stuff. I mean, it was totally, totally dominated by video games, like either video game, like fan games or like animations, you know, or people would write like stories like in a game world or they would remix, you know, music from games or cover them like in a different style. I mean, it was everywhere. mean, like Mario and Sonic and all of those, you know, IPs that I grew up with and sort of idolized. mean, they totally dominated. the content creation space. So I watched just so, so, so, so, so much content, so much creative stuff as well that you could never find on the internet today, would never get traction in the modern era of the short form content and everything. Those videos that I watched when I was a kid, nobody will ever see them except for people like me who go back and watch them. But it was still a very formative time and I think it brought a lot of people, myself included. closer to that process where it was like, want to make that. I want to make a fan game or I want to make a fan animation. And so then it's kind of like, well, what kind of tools do I need to do that? How can I figure out how to make an animation so I can make Mario and Sonic fight each other kind of thing or make a Sonic fan game so I can put my own levels in it and do all the things that I would want to have out of a new Sonic game or whatever. Like very early on, was kind of in my, the seeds were being planted like in my brain of like, you need to do something creative with video games. Cause that's kind of where my passion lied. And then as I think the internet evolved and, like I saying, like people kind of realized like, ⁓ wait, you can actually like get paid to like, like a livable wage to make content on the internet. You know, everything sort of leveled up from there. You know, it went from like funny. you know, cool little flash animations to like full like video essays with editing and scripts and excuse me, and like all sorts of things going on from there. So I just kind of transitioned from that like fun little flash game content to like really in depth, like analytical, like quote, for adults kind of content. Cause I feel like a lot of what was being made before was still like for kids. ⁓ but once people realized that, ⁓ wait, adults actually get on the internet and adults want to see stuff about video games too, then it became way more in depth. And then you had like tons and tons of content creators. I mean, like the let's plays and stuff when that took off, that was a huge thing for gaming as well. ⁓ And so I was watching a lot, a lot, a lot of like game makers toolkit kind of videos where it's like, here's a level in, like here's why the first level of Mario is a perfect level. I must've watched that video, whatever, whoever it was by. I must have watched that video like a hundred times just because I thought it was so cool that it was like, wait, no, there actually is like a really deep sort of thought process behind like why you're making the decisions that you are. ⁓ So I just kind of kept watching that and kept absorbing stuff about my favorite games. ⁓ And then, you know, when brother the wild came out, I think, I think I was just in like the perfect moment to have that realization where like, I was older, really had an important decision to make about my future and what I really wanted to do. ⁓ I really wanted to move away. I really wanted to go far away and do something creative and fun. I had the opportunity to do it. I had parents that would support me in doing it, thank God. ⁓ And then I was knowledgeable enough to be able to play that game and appreciate it on that level that I'd never really been able to understand before. But because I'd watched so much content and done, I'd written papers in school about game design and these sorts of things. ⁓ I was able to just really see it for what it was, just a little bit under the current. ⁓ I think I remember the specific thing was the, I don't know what you would call it exactly. It's kind of like the elemental sort of system where like, You can, there's a tree and you can, you can take a, an arrow and you can put it in a bonfire. You can like pull it back, put it in a bonfire, point it at a tree and shoot it at a tree. And then the tree catches on fire. And then, you know, everything, you know, ⁓ the tree burns down and then, ⁓ you know, it's like a different type of, of wood or a different type of resource will drop because you burnt down the tree. Or I remember if you like hunted animals, like, okay, if you, if you lit an arrow on fire and you, shot it at an animal. and the animal dies from the fire arrow, then it's like, oh, okay, well, the meat from the animal is already cooked instead of you having to cook it. And I was just like, boom, like that is so sick. Or like you could take a lightning arrow and you could shoot it into like a pond and it would electrocute the water and zap all the fish. And then all the fish would float up to the surface and then you could just collect them all super easily. And it was like. It was just insane. I just kept, it just keeps going and and going and going. It's like a such, it's like a fully dynamic system. It's not like, you know, we're building in an individual interaction for each thing you could ever possibly think to do, which is how a lot of games before that kind of did. I think of like the sort of Duke Nukem forever thing. Like you can like interact with the environment where it's like, okay, that's cool, but it's pretty limited. That was a game where was like, I feel like I could literally do anything. And it would make, and the game would react in a way that made sense to me. ⁓ And it's like giving the player a little bit of the creativity ⁓ that you have from building the game. It's like you want to give the player the ability to explore ⁓ creative ways of tackling a problem. ⁓ And so all of that sort of just like together, it just all sort of, it's like I'm like looking through the matrix a little bit, but like in the first movie, where I'm like, you still kind of don't really know how to do it. You still can't really like beat all the agents, you know, but you still can see through the matrix. And it's like, okay, there's potential here. You know, like now it's time to actually train and figure out how to do that by actually going to school for it.
speaker-1: I got it. Yeah, that's cool. So it almost sounds like the combination of seeing people, regular people make games, know, make content around games and then digesting behind the scenes and, you know, breakdowns of how games are made kind of gave you the ammunition to look at a game that is very, I think they call it the chemistry system or something like that.
speaker-0: Yes, chemistry system. That's exactly right.
speaker-1: Yeah, and see that as a design, an execution of design. And it sounds like design was the thing that really got you. Yeah, it wasn't the art, it wasn't the animation, it wasn't the VFX, it was the design, it was how it worked. Is that something that you're generally interested with? Do you find yourself being someone that likes understanding how things work or is it just video games that really highlight that for you?
speaker-0: think I'm definitely like that in general. mean, with games specifically, was kind of like, I really was attracted to the art. Like the art is definitely like the first thing that attracts me to a game is the art and the visuals like every time. That's what attracts me to the game. ⁓ But I'm not like the world's greatest artist. And especially then I was like, I didn't really have the artistic ability. to really make anything on that level. So I was like, it's really attractive to me and it's really cool. And I had friends that were artists. I'm like, that's really impressive that you can do that. But I also know you and I know how long it took you to get there and how much work it took. So at that point I was like, there's no way I could do that. And there's the programming and implementation side of things, which later on I learned and appreciated about. But at that time I had absolutely no idea how that worked at. I mean we had literally there's there's zero exposure to programming or computer science at all in my school and I even went to like a you know, don't want to a private school that was supposed to be like, you know, the higher like a very higher education thing and and we didn't have any any tech courses or computer science and this is in 2018 and there is no programming courses, you know available so I had Absolutely no idea what the hell is going on. Like how do you program a game? L if I know. ⁓ So that was just not even on my radar at all. I had no idea what went behind that. But design, it was like design. I can I can think about games. It's like I can even if I can't draw and I can't program, I can still think and understand like what makes a game fun. Like what like I could think about that chemistry system. And I could think about how it works. I could kind of identify how does it work? How does it function in the game? And I can also identify like, why is it so cool? Like What makes it so cool outside of just how it works? Like, why is it fun? Like, why do I get a satisfaction out of using it? Like, why does it feel so intuitive and things like that? So, and that's sort of kind of leading into like UX and things as well. So I think I was really attracted to that because it was something that I felt confident that I could actually do, even though I'd never had like a formal education on how to do it. ⁓ It was like, I could think about games even if I can't. draw something, know, draw a landscape or even if I can't program like a grappling hook kind of thing.
speaker-1: Yeah, that makes sense. so, so you're, you're fascinated by how games are made. You start, you're sort of starting to understand, feel like you're seeing behind the curtain a little bit. And then you pick up your life and you move across country, like you said, to DigiPen and presumably go from having almost zero exposure to technology creation to nothing but exposure to. So how was that like? moving across country to pursue this dream that you had, right, to make video games. Like, how was that?
speaker-0: ⁓ man, ⁓ it was a crazy experience from beginning to end, think I would say. It was definitely like the right move. Like I do not regret the choice at all, but thinking back on it, I'm kind of like, I can't believe my parents let me do that. Like an 18 year old going across the country, know, someplace I'd never even like visited. I mean, Seattle in particular was like a city I really wanted to live in because I played ⁓ Infamous Second Son, ⁓ which is like a sucker punch game, I think and ⁓ their studio is there and the game takes place in Seattle and and I just absolutely love that game and like the city walking around the city. It's very accurate. So I was super attracted to that. So I'm like, okay, that's the city. That's the school and let's go and do it. The problem is ⁓ so DigiPen only does game degrees. They only do games. They are not like a bigger, they have maybe like 1500 students at one time. And you know, they have bachelor of arts in game design, you know, bachelor of science in game, in game programming, you know, bachelor of arts in music and sound design, you know, bachelor of fine arts and digital arts and animation and every single one of those programs is 100 % focused and built around making games. and not even not not only that but the Probably like the biggest reason that people go to digiPen as opposed to maybe go into a different You know sort of game focus program is because of the projects so when you're a your freshman year You know, you're basically like they're basically just trying to see if you can do this your sophomore year That's when like okay, you've taken a year of game development classes Now we're gonna actually take the reins off and let you make a game like with a game team. So you have game 200, which is the project course and it lasts two semesters. So it goes the whole year. And at the beginning, you ⁓ as a students go up and front of like an assembly basically, and you pitch your game that you want to make. And everybody in your class and all the degrees are all sitting in the audience. and they basically sit there and listen and then you all just go and make your own teams with different disciplines. you just, it's totally like self-directed, like whatever game you want to make in whatever engine you want to make it in with whatever amount of people you want to do it with. And you know, the professors try to like make sure you don't do anything to totally set yourself up for complete failure. ⁓ despite though we did still do that sometimes despite their best efforts. ⁓ But that's kind of why people go to that school is like, you get to actually have game projects with the whole team and everything. So it was it was a really great environment to learn game development and learn all sides of game development. Because you know, once you get on, you know, it's one thing learning how to do design in your class. It's another thing when you're on a team with artists with programs with musicians with you know, all sorts of different people and you actually have to work with them to make the game to get the game to work because you all get the same grade at the class. So what however good the project is, that's the grade that everybody is getting. So it was really cool in that way. But it was really ⁓ uncool in the way that if you don't like games, or if you, you know, start your degree and it find you find out that ⁓ wait, this is not actually for me. you pretty much have to drop out because there's nothing else for you to transfer to. It's not like, you know, like USC was another big, you know, one that I was, ⁓ that's around that I was considered going to and like, okay, if I did the game program at USC and I didn't really like it, okay, well there's 80,000 students at this school. There's every degree you could possibly imagine. Like you can find something else and you can just transfer and you can still be a four year student. ⁓ Not so at DigiPen. If you went there and you did not like it and you had to drop out, well, you gotta leave. And none of your credits are gonna transfer either to wherever you go because like it's game design courses. It's like specifically focused on this thing. So it's kinda like I went out there, I had no experience at all, didn't even know what I was getting into and got super lucky that I actually liked it and I could actually do it. Because if I didn't, I don't even know what would have happened. Like, I don't know where I would have gone or what I would have done. So, got really lucky in that case.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. So very much for the people that either already know they love it or better blooming well love it because otherwise they're in trouble. And it sounds like you went there with sort of a design focus. How did you find out, you know, like being exposed to all the other parts of video games, the way they're made? How did you find your way through that? Did design remain the thing that you loved the most or did you find other things that interested you? How did that go?
speaker-0: Well, when I went at first, I went to basically visit and they have their visiting day where you can go and you can talk to all the different professors and hear from the students and things. I think what really has kept me going through college ⁓ and even, and especially now, working in game dev where it's like a totally different world and you have to be an adult and you have to pay your bills and do all these sorts of things is the people. like in the game dev community. ⁓ You know, I remember when I visited DigiPen, you know, every, every student that I talked to basically was, it was almost like they were trying to convince you to not come because they were telling you how they're like, this is the most like difficult, grueling, like time consuming, you know, ⁓ thing you could possibly be doing. I even had like the, head of the design program was like, You should only be doing this if there is literally nothing else you can do. If like this is it and this is what you're gonna do and there's nothing else. Because it's not easy and it's not an easy industry to get into and even once you're there, it's very difficult and it's a challenge for everybody involved. But even that said, all the people I talked to were so enthusiastic and just like genuinely. loved what they were doing. Like they wouldn't trade it for anything. They're like, yeah, it sucks and it's really hard and it's a lot of collaboration. It's a lot of people skills, a lot of this and that, but everybody there was so passionate about games ⁓ in a way that I had never met. Like I'd never met any other people who were like as passionate about games as I was. And it was like, this is a school with literally everybody here is like that. ⁓ And that that has kind of continued into my professional game dev careers. Every game dev I meet is the most awesome people in the world, honestly. Everybody is so passionate about what they're doing and not only about their discipline, but your discipline. They want to know everything about everything you're doing, even if they can't do it. They're just fascinated by the process. You know, and everybody is so supportive and just like loving of each other ⁓ in a way that I don't think many industries have. Like, I think there's this sort of ladder climbing effect that happens with a lot of, you know, tech adjacent industries like we are. ⁓ And I just don't feel that. Like, I just don't feel that vibe from other game devs. It's like everybody genuinely wants each other to succeed. and they want to be a part of your journey, basically, which is really awesome. I had no idea, I guess I could feel that when I first started getting into game dev, and I think that's what really pushed me along, because I ⁓ had a really hard time with programming and things, especially. I had a really hard time learning that, having absolutely zero exposure to it and just having to pick it up and do it. I'm not a math guy. at all. but having those people around me, and having them be so open and helpful, and like everybody, like we're all in this together kind of vibe was was great. And, you know, even today, I try to keep keep as much of that with me as I can about being passionate about what other game devs do, wanting to hear about their stories, kind of like how you do with this podcast, you know, just wanting to know what you do. And, and ⁓ how you got there just because it's fascinating and it's cool and everybody in the community is so awesome. ⁓ It's really been, it was really a great experience.
speaker-1: Yeah, I can only imagine moving from somewhere where you were kind of an outcast, someone that did something that most people didn't do to a place where everybody does it. And not only do they do it, but it's what they're all about. Must have fueled your fire so much. You must have felt like home instantly.
speaker-0: It absolutely did. And if anything, if anything, like I was the one who was like not that much into games now. I was like, I was around people who were like way more, way deeper into it than I was. People who were like, I mean, I mean, so many people who are like, yeah, I've known that I wanted to be a game dev since I was like six years old. And I'm like, really? That is crazy. Like that's a crazy journey to go on. from your entire life basically being like, I'm gonna be a game dev and I'm gonna make this happen. And then they do it. And it's like, has, that is so like, and I'm sitting here like, is the one that I'm like, I just kind of decided to do this because like, I, was like, it was like the professor said, it's like, this is the only thing I feel like I can do, you know, like this is the thing I have to do. And so now I'm here and I'm hanging out with these people who are like, I've had this school on my radar since I was eight years old, which is just wild. wild stuff to me. But that's that's also the same reason that I go to that I go to GDC every year, like the fueling the fire, because that's absolutely what happened. Or it was like, I kind of thought I could do it. But then being around so many people that were so into it, and having the camaraderie, it's almost like you're on like a sports team kind of vibe, where everybody's into it, everybody wants each other to succeed, you know, and especially like a projects and game teams. I mean, we live we are on the same team, you know, we have to work together. ⁓ That's the reason why I go to GDC every year is because, no matter what I'm feeling like, you know, no matter what the industry is looking like, ⁓ especially this year, it's like I can go and I can talk to game devs and I can hang out with them all week and I can hear all about their stories. I can meet people in AAA, I can meet people in India, can meet people in art, music, sound programming, writing, crazy jobs that I'm like, I had no idea that was even a thing you could do. Like I met someone this year that was like, ⁓ yeah, I'm a death consultant on games. Like I'm, I'm like an expert on death. So people come to me, game companies call me and, and I tell them like how to represent dead people in their game. And I'm like, that's a job that you get paid to do. That is insane. And it's, it's just like game devs are awesome and wonderful and quirky and cool. And we have the craziest, most amazing job in the world and getting to meet all of them and just hang out with them all week absolutely is like builds that fire back up. It's like whatever I gotta do to make it happen, like I gotta make it happen. You know, it's just what I have to do.
speaker-1: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I I think we are in an industry that is full of crazy people that are very passionate about what they do. I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. ⁓ So I want to talk a little bit about, like you mentioned, we worked together at CineMax. You joined as an intern ⁓ and on the UX track. how did you get from DigiPen and having a focus on design? into UXUI and then getting that internship. Like how was that? How did that happen? And what did that feel like to land that role?
speaker-0: Well, I'm very lucky that I had a fantastic, fantastic professor in college. ⁓ Her name is Jamie Lukens. she, at the time, she was a DigiPen alumni and she was the lead UI UX ⁓ on Destiny 2. And she would come and teach classes as like an adjunct professor. So at first she had just had one class and it was the one UX design class. as part of the game design sort of track that we had. And she just, she was just awesome. Like it was just the most like engaging and cool class. Like it kind of combined the things, the two things that I was most interested in, which was game design and psychology. And I was like, wait, this is it. I'm like, this is the one. I can actually combine my two special interests into one thing and hopefully get it and actually get a job doing that. taking her class and then, you know, having her do some, mentoring with me as well really ⁓ inspired me to actually pursue UX specifically. So, you know, I'm eternally grateful to her for, for actually coming in and teaching us what UX is because you know, as As anyone who's in UI UX who's listening to this knows, it is really hard to explain to somebody what you actually do or why you need somebody like that on your game team. So when you meet somebody that has just the silver tongue for it, and can explain it in a way that just makes sense and is cool and engaging, that's someone you want on your team for sure. So from there, we graduated and I, that was my first year coming to GDC, working for GDC. This year was my fifth, you know, so they, obviously I had a great time the first time and kept coming back. But that was my first exposure to actually meeting other people in game dev outside of just my school. I said, I actually got to walk around and meet people and talk to, you know, and it was kind of awkward because I was like a little, I was like 22 and I was like, uh. I don't know what I'm doing here. I don't even know what I'm going to be doing after I graduate. But I had that opportunity and I got to meet so many other game devs that sort of ⁓ inspired me with their stories ⁓ and taught me to be persistent and resilient, which I think are two key things you need to be in any creative industry. ⁓ So that really lit that fire where I was like, OK, I'm ready. Let's do this. I'm like, I know what I want to do. I know I can do it. ⁓ And then I got, I just got so lucky to have ⁓ Ben, Ben Jones came to my university for our career ⁓ fair. So Zen Exhaust was one of the companies that was there. And man, it was a messed up year because it was still like COVID stuff was happening. And normally you'd have a career fair like in person like We would actually have people come to the school and we would, people would set up, students would set up booths to show off their game and they would decorate their booths. And it was kind of like a hire me pitch with all of your projects that you'd made. But we were still at like in post COVID stuff. So instead of doing that, we got to do virtual sessions and each virtual session was five minutes. So you got five minutes to talk to a company and somehow make an impression on them to, that they want to like convince them to hire you in those five minutes. ⁓ as a student, ⁓ which was really intimidating. But Ben Jones was one of the people that came to visit and we just had a really good camaraderie dynamic. We just really hit it off in those five minutes. ⁓ think he could feel where I was coming from, where I was like, I'm just really, at that moment I was just so hungry to do something. ⁓ And I did hit on the thing as well where I really wanted to make an MMO. Like I really wanted to work on an MMO RPG because that's like, you know, one of the really big sort of genres for me playing like, especially when I was a teenager, I was like, you know, I've made single player games, I've made like side scrollers, I've made immersive experience things in college. And I'm like, and now I really want to work on something big and cool with a big team and get to like, really be a part of that process. So I really lucked out having Ben show up. and having us hit it off and having that be the exact thing that they, you know, we were making. ⁓ And it just sort of ended up getting that internship from there, which I didn't even apply to. I actually didn't even know it was a thing. I just kind of got a call one day from them and they were like, hey, we want to do a, you know, a phone screen with you and the UIUX team, which was Hannah and Kara at the time at SOS. So. That's kind of how I became an intern and it's funny too because I was actually when I got the like offer to come in and be an intern, I actually wanted to turn it down because I was like, ⁓ I'm a graduated. Internships are for like ⁓ juniors, like junior year going into senior year. That's what internships are for. I'm a senior, I'm graduated. I should be getting a full time job, dang it. And my mom was like, you're gonna be the stupidest person on the planet if you turn down that internship. And I was like, okay, mom, I guess I'll do it. So, thank you, mom.
speaker-1: Yeah, mean, interns an interesting role to kind of take on, right? It's a great opportunity. It's an incredible opportunity to work with an actual team on an actual project and build something. you've also got, know, they're not invariably, they're not particularly well paid. It was a long way away from you, right? You're in Seattle still, I presume.
speaker-0: I was actually back in Alabama at that time too. So I was like, yeah, I was like, I need a full-time job so I can get out of here again.
speaker-1: Right, right, right. So the internship kind of came at the right time and gave you that opportunity to move again for what you wanted to do. And it sounds like you sort of walked into the role that, like you said, combined your two favorite passions right away, like on a huge project with a huge team. That must have been a shock to the system.
speaker-0: It is. is kind of like a, yeah, this is kind of a historical thing that I guess I just do. I think this is just like, I think it's just like part of my personality at this point. Like every couple of years or so, I guess I just feel like I need to do something like absolutely crazy and just like way out there and just make like a super huge change ⁓ in my life. Cause I mean, I went from being Alabama to moving to Seattle and doing that whole thing and not knowing anybody out there and having to make friends and build a community and learn and actually graduate and pass on my classes. ⁓ And then, you know, going from there all the way back across the country again to another place in Baltimore to work on a, you know, at a huge studio. And when I'd only ever made like really tiny like indie games, sort of student experiences ⁓ and just diving straight into that and going on that roller coaster. So I think that's kind of a thing that is like part of my personality at this point that it's like if I have to do something like crazy outlandish and you just like totally you know up in my life and go into another chapter I guess which is pretty much what I'm I think I'm going to be doing very soon here again I'm definitely getting the the itch to to like move and meet new people and do this whole thing again it's really just like finding the right opportunity to do that
speaker-1: Yeah, that very much sounds like you, Jonny. That sounds like you're, you know, from just from this conversation, right? That desire to follow your passion and, you know, not really caring too much whether people around you, you know, like it or not, but, you know, just wanting to be with the right people, making the thing that you're passionate about and wherever that may be. I think that sounds like that speaks to you as a person.
speaker-0: Absolutely. mean, hey, you know, you know, there are there are always going to be people in life who just don't like you, you know, they just don't like you. They just don't like what you're doing. And there's nothing you can do to change those people's minds or or make them think any differently of you. It's like the only thing that you can control is, you know, what you do about that. You know, and in my opinion, it's like you just got to leave those people behind, you know, because as long as you're, you know, authentic and you're true to yourself and you're doing the things that you do, that makes you really happy and as long as you're not hurting anybody, you know, you'll always find the people that you're really meant to be around. At least that's been my experience is like, you know, no matter where you go, as long as you're authentic and you're yourself, you can find your people and you can find your sort of space to exist and be happy. So that's, I guess that's how I kind of look at it.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great way to look at it. I think game dev is, as you mentioned earlier, right? Game dev is a great place for that because there are a lot of, you know, a lot of us are strange and weird and have this passion that we're super into. you know, it pulls us together in a way that, you know, almost like you talked about, right? The kind of misfits that gang together and, you know, and rebel and do what they want to do. It almost feels like that's the spirit of video games. Certainly was the spirit of video games in 70s and the 80s, less so now with the more corporate side, but it's still present there. think it's still there. Still in a D &I.
speaker-0: Especially in like indie spaces as well. I saw a lot of indie stuff at GDC this year, way more than usual. So I think that that rebellious spirit and just making stuff that is just totally off the wall is really coming back in a strong way right now. I feel like maybe that kind of got pushed down a little bit and now... Everybody's kind of sick of it and they're like bouncing back. Let's just make the craziest thing we possibly can and people love it. I mean, they're winning awards for it.
speaker-1: For sure. So as we start to wind this down, I do want to ask you, know, ZeniMax was your first professional role. You, you know, you moved your way up. You started as an intern, moved your way through associate to, you know, kind of mid-level. And then it goes away. How do you, you know, as an old, like me, who's been through it a few times, right? That's, you get used to it, but for you, you you've, you've, you've got this opportunity and then it's taken away. Like, how did you process that? How did that leave you when it happened?
speaker-0: You know, I think right in the moment that it happened, I was very confused. I was very just like confused and not really like understanding what was going on. You know, I'd never been through that sort of layoff process before. So I really had no idea how it was going to go. ⁓ but I honestly didn't feel, I didn't feel so upset about it until like much later. ⁓ because you know, the, the game that You know, we were making the game that we were making and we were making a lot of progress, but there was still work to be done. You know, it was not finished. It was not really a place where like, okay, I can show my friends a trailer of the game and like it's real. Like I guess to me, the game was still not really real because I couldn't actually tell any of my friends about it or show them a trailer or release date or whatever. You know, it was unannounced. It's all very secretive. It's all very, you know, in the vault. you know, now type of thing. So for me, I guess in my head, the game was still not very real. So once the game was kind of taken away, I didn't have as strong feelings about, nobody's going to get to see that work, at least not at first. I wasn't as attached to the actual project that we were making. I think probably because I'd been taught so much to like not get attached to your ideas as a designer. Because everything gets iterated, everything gets changed, you know, it's not a personal thing. It's just you're trying to make the best game that you can. So if that idea doesn't work for the player or it doesn't work for your development, then you're just going to have to change it and throw it out. So like, you know, don't get too attached, you know, and if it gets thrown out, like, okay, you can be upset about it, but get over it, you know, we got to move on. And that's just how things go. ⁓ But once you know, as time sort of passed by, I realized that that The thing that I really miss the most is the team, is the actual people that I worked with. I mean, you know, I'm sure you've had a lot of people come on here and say this about the team, but it really was like a great, amazing team to work with. And for me, it's like, was my only experience is working alongside that team. And everybody was very collaborative, very, you know, fun and casual. And we all felt like, it really felt like, okay, well, this is... This is me and 400 of my friends all getting together to make a game together. You know, it was a very like happy and fun and positive vibe in the room. Every time we got together to meet on something, you know, of course we all butt heads sometimes on things, but at the end of the day, you know, we can, we can hug it out and we're all still cool with each other and we're all still really happy to be working alongside one another. And you know, now that that's gone, I really miss that. I really miss being able to have that team around and create something that's really special. I think I learned about myself that the collaboration is really what makes Game Dev so special for me. It's ⁓ not just artists, it's not just a ⁓ programming project, it's not just an art piece, it's not just a you know, a design document or whatever. It's like this crazy amalgamation of like every discipline, every artistic creative discipline out there all meshed into this one, you know, insane project. ⁓ And that's, that's like the fun. That's the fun part of making games is that you get to work with all those people. I mean, you have your thing that you do. And like, you're the expert at and obviously you can hopefully you enjoy doing that. ⁓ But it's really about getting to see what everybody else can contribute to the team and what you can create together You know that in that in product that you get is Really something that none of the individuals of all of you would have been able to make on your own and especially when you have a huge Project it's like you're creating something that's that's really special ⁓ But even still, you know, it was really the people that left the biggest impact on me and I feel really Spoiled ⁓ to have that be my first game dev experience ⁓ You know all those like horror stories and things that I heard in college. I've heard at GDC from different people I know I Never really experienced any of that on on our team I mean, you know, we have our spats here and there but for the most part it was a really great, you know Fun time, you know, we're not we're not crunching. We're not at each other's throats. We're not you know having you know drama all the time between you know, this, that and who and the other, you know, it was really just a very highly collaborative and friendly and loving environment. And I really miss that more than I miss anything ⁓ at this point. And I also am kind of annoyed that I can't put any of that on my portfolio, but that's that's a whole other that sucks.
speaker-1: Yeah, you put multiple years into it and no one else gets to see it,
speaker-0: That's more of a problem you get into now that you're trying to like find your next opportunity and you're like, ⁓ what can I, I can't even like, that's annoying.
speaker-1: is frustrating. So yeah, so a couple of last questions. It sounds like video games have defined you, like you said, and have very much been your passion. If you weren't making video games, what would you be doing?
speaker-0: Hmm. I think I would probably be trying to do something in the music industry. I mean, that's what kind of my original passion was ⁓ when I was in high school. I really thought for a while there that that was going to be my future. That like that's what I was going to be doing was I was going to be making music. At that time, I was like, I'm going to be playing guitar. going to be singing. I'm going to be doing these sorts of things. ⁓ Now, nowadays that I have a much better insights into what that process really looks like. I think I probably could do it now. Like if I had to choose right now, if I had to switch career paths right now to something totally different, I think I would probably go into music and music production. Because that's like another thing that I can totally like dive into. and I can get super immersed in and learn about the same way that it kind of was when I was really learning about game dev growing up and being in college. It's like, I know enough to know that there's so much more that I could learn about it and there's so much skill to develop. ironically, I decided not to go into the music industry because I wanted to go into a more stable industry. So I decided to be a game developer. ⁓
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: That didn't
speaker-1: At times that's true, right now maybe less so unfortunately. Is there any correlation between the of the creativity and the satisfaction you get from making music to the creativity and the satisfaction you get from making games?
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. mean, I mean, you know, you know, this as an artist, as a creative person, it's kind of like you have this, it's like you have this sort of animal in you that like, it needs to come out. all of the I think creatives are very like emotional people. They you know, they they experience every emotion very strongly. And I think the best creatives, the best artists are the ones that are able to Distill that like in its purest form into something into whatever it is So whether that's you're making a game or you're making a song you're making, you know a painting whatever it is I think that is like the essence of being a creative So it's really about finding that one thing that like really connects with you personally ⁓ Like the thing that that that you're able to take what you have in your head and and make it into reality It's kind of like whatever medium really works best for you as a creative, that's what you should be doing. you really, it's like, you kind of have to. You kind of have to because if you don't get it out, it'll kind of eat you alive. I've realized at several times in my life that when I've been really like down and not feeling it, I'm like, man, when was the last time I went to like a concert? When was the last time I like wrote a song or like worked on something? ⁓ And it's very correlated to it's like you just kind of get that bottled up and it will eat away at you. ⁓ So for me, that is music. That was kind of my original thing. So that's what I always come back to. ⁓ And I also listen to like eight hours of music a day. like, it's kind of like, well, I'm already doing that. So might as well try to like actually, you know, see how what it's like to make music. ⁓ But I think it's definitely correlated. And plus, it's a lot quicker to write a song or, you know, make a ⁓ do some music production than it is to like develop a whole game. You know, you can get that finished sort of product out and be like, I did a thing. Here you go. Let me send it to my friends. And here it is. It's packaged and I finished it. You know, you can do that in a much shorter time than it would take you to make even the most simple game, you know, out there. So that definitely helps as well. It's kind of like you can sort of supplement. the creative energy a little bit better with something that you can pump out faster as compared to games which as you know can go years and years and years and years years and years and years and still never even come out and then it's like where does that leave you at the end of the day?
speaker-1: Yeah, they sure can. I love that sentiment, that sentiment of kind of the creative beast inside that has to have an outlet. And I empathize with that a lot. There's definitely times where I had it just the other week where I was like, I feel like I'm down. ⁓ yeah, I haven't played anything for like a week. now that's probably, I should just play something and then I sit down and play something and then suddenly I don't even think about it and I feel better. So yeah, I completely, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely, definitely similar. Well, thanks, Johnny. I really appreciate your time. It's been a great conversation. love, that's a great story, know, that the risks you've taken, that, where you grew up and the opportunities you've grabbed and, you know, I'm excited to see what you do next. yeah, yeah, thank you for taking the time to talk through it with me. And it was really fun.
speaker-0: ⁓ thank you. Yeah, this was this was great. I'm really glad I got a chance to chat with you again. It's been a while since we've seen each other. So yeah, really enjoyed getting a chance to talk and talk about myself and tell a little bit about my story. Get some of that off my off my chest. And I hope I get a chance to work with you again in the future because yeah, I really feel like we missed out on getting to do some like really good feature work together on just something. I'll keep an eye on and see what you're up to and you keep an eye on what I'm up to and hopefully we can land in the same spot. Or hey, if you're ever at GDC as well, ⁓ I'm literally there every year, work there every year, highly recommend it as well.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's been a while since I've been, so I definitely want to go again. yeah, I'd love to. It's a very small industry, hopefully our paths will again in the future. But yeah, thanks.
speaker-0: It's been great. Thanks. See ya.
speaker-0: Hmm, okay. Well, I guess I'll go like way all the way back to start and ⁓ I my first memory that I have Just in my life is playing ⁓ Duck Hunt at my grandma's house my grand-grand with my uncle I guess he had an NES and I was two years old something like that And I was always super hyped to go over to grand-grand's house so I could sit in front of the TV and play Duck Hunt. And it was also that like cartridge that had Super Mario Bros on it as well. So I just play the hell out of both of those games. I don't even want to know like what my hour count is on those two games. I probably play more Duck Hunt than like anybody alive, but that's like my earliest memory. And so that was a really influential thing on me sort of going through the rest of my life. And then just as I got older and got more into games, know, I got my first game console, which was a GameCube, got a DS and all those sorts of things. That's when I really started to just like dive really deep into games. And I was just buying all sorts of nonsense. I am glad that at least my collection has like some really good games in it, but there's a lot of trash also. Lots of like Nickelodeon like. branded games and stuff like that. So I was always playing games through like my whole childhood. And then, you know, once it kind of came to teenager, I mean, that was a way that I connected with like people around me. Like that's how I made just about all of my friends, you know, going into my teenage years was because we were all gamers and we all played games. And at that time, this is sort of like 2014, gaming was definitely big. you know, it was sort of starting to take off, especially with like Call of Duty and things like that. But it wasn't, it was still a situation where like you could get made fun of at school from being a gamer still. So there was like a camaraderie, a sort of a misfit thing going on between all the different people at school who played games, especially because, you know, I've mentioned, like I mentioned to you earlier, I'm from Alabama in the South. you know, whatever amount of like tech literacy, you know, there is in the rest of the United States, there is way less in Alabama as well. mean, we didn't have any programming classes or things like that. know, like the tech kind of takes a long time to get down there. So all those trends were really slow to develop. even at that time, you know, being a gamer brought a lot of people together and a lot of my friends that are still my friends now that I game with all the time. I I would say that was probably the biggest thing that inspired me to even... Consider pursuing games like even really think seriously about it. You know, I was really interested in game design specifically So, you know just watching hours and hours and hours tons of like videos on YouTube and stuff and reading books and all those sorts of things and then eventually the The telling moment I guess was my senior year in high schools. This is like 2018 And I realized that oh no, I need to go to college and I have no idea what I'm gonna do I thought maybe I was gonna be a musician, ⁓ but then I kind of didn't really want to make that my full-time job. So I was like, okay, well, what am I gonna do? I don't really wanna be like an accountant. ⁓ So ⁓ I actually played Breath of the Wild that year, Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild. And that was the game that kind of everything clicked for me. And it was like, wait, there's actually so much more that like goes behind this. was like that like moment where I could. see a little bit behind the curtain because I had studied design enough that I could play that game and I could appreciate it from a design standpoint and not just from like a game or having fun playing it. I was just really impressed with the development and how they were able to design and create such an amazing in-depth and engaging world. So that was kind of the moment where I was like, okay, maybe I can actually do this as a career. and try to make something like that happen for myself.
speaker-1: Love that. That's such a fascinating start to your story. Firstly, the NES was pretty old when you were sitting down and playing it for the first time. What was it about that that kind of connected with you so quickly?
speaker-0: Hmm, that's a great question. think I think the visuals really had a lot to do with it Like the 8-bit style of everything like just really connected with me for some reason I think a lot of people have that same sort of attraction to that era I think it's maybe something I think something in my brain even when I was very young was like longing for that sort of era, the 80s era of like, you know, style and music and everything. And I got super into like 80s culture like later on when I was a teenager. Yeah, I was in like a rock band and we were playing like hair metal, hair bands and things like that. So I think that era of time, it's sort of like a time capsule of what the world was like in 1987, I think is when is when both of those games came out. ⁓ I think the visuals really sold that in some way. Like I think even now you see so many indie games that are in that retro style. think everybody has some sort of connection to that era, even when they obviously were not born in that era. They obviously didn't live through it, but there's something kind of, there's some mystique. It almost feels like things were just like really... Cool and happier and fun and there's neon everywhere and there's you know, like tears for fears on the radio and something about that is just like longing for like a really happy fun time where everything felt like it's gonna be okay. ⁓ And I think that still really connects with people with how many games come out in that style today kind of imitating it.
speaker-1: That's so cool, it's almost like longing for an era that you didn't get to experience, rather than nostalgia for an era long
speaker-0: Exactly. Yes, that's exactly what it is.
speaker-1: Right, interesting. Okay. And then it sounds like you were kind of a Nintendo kid. Then, know, the NES inspired you, but then DS GameCube, you kind of, you were a Nintendo fan and that was your favorite company, your favorite games, yeah.
speaker-0: I would say, I would go as far as to say I was a Nintendo shill. I pretty much bought and consumed everything that Nintendo made for probably like 10 years. I was like huge super fan of Nintendo. I was also a huge ⁓ Sonic fan as well. And really anything sort of adjacent to that, played every Mario game, played every Zelda game. I didn't get into Pokemon. weirdly, which, you know, people give me a lot of crap about. But it was just, I don't know, there's something about Nintendo games that it's like, makes you feel like you're a child playing the game. It's like, when you are a child, it's like, this is made for me. It's like, this is something that was made specifically for me and appeals to me. And even if, you know, the adults around me don't really get it. And even if some of the kids around me don't really get it, I get it, and it's for me, and I get so much out of it. ⁓ Yeah, on when I started to become a game developer, that was kind of my dream, was like, I'm gonna work for Nintendo. ⁓ And so when I went to college, I pretty much decided that choice off of the founder of our ⁓ university. I went to DigiPen Institute of Technology, which is in Redmond, Washington, and it was founded by Claude Comare, who was one of the founding members of the American branch of Nintendo. And they were developing games like they made like 1080 Avalanche on the GameCube. They made the Wave Race game on the GameCube. They made some games for the DS as well, like the sort of like little toy Mario games. And I played all those games growing up and loved them. And I was like, wait, this guy. like made this school. The guy who made all the games has sort of inspired me to go on this whole 18 year journey to get to this point. He made all these games and this is his school where he's gonna teach me how to do the same thing. So I pretty much decided to go to that university based off of that choice. It was only after my first year that I realized like, ⁓ wait, Nintendo is in Japan. and I don't speak Japanese and I'm not Japanese. So I think I'm maybe not gonna be able to work on the new Mario game. So that was a little ⁓ disappointing reality check moment, ⁓ but it's okay because I feel like I'm, that's one of those things like Nintendo is like, you don't really wanna touch it. It's like as an adult, I don't wanna really like touch it and see what is happening. behind the scenes. You have all these moments with game dev and game design where once you learn how something works or how something's designed, you can't unlearn it. Once that curtain's pulled back, it's really hard to pull the curtain and close it again and have that mystique of what are they really doing? How did they make this game when you really get into the nitty gritty of it? So I actually don't wanna know what they do. I actually don't wanna be part of their... their team because I just want to be able to continue experiencing that as an adult and just appreciate it from the other side of the world, like what they're doing over there.
speaker-1: Just continue to consume and enjoy rather than risk any, take any chance of spoiling it.
speaker-0: Exactly, like so many games have already been ruined for me because of this. I'm like no, we need to keep keep that one at least
speaker-1: Yeah. Well, I want to dig into that moment of ⁓ learning about video games through consuming media and then having that light bulb moment with Zelda. ⁓ you mentioned growing up the South, growing up in Alabama, did you have any other family that were gamers around you? Or was it just you?
speaker-0: I did have one family member, it was my cousin, and he had a GameCube. And so I went over to his house and played Sonic Heroes and Mario Kart Double Dash. I actually, I actually like was a bit of a kleptomaniac when I was a kid. So I kind of just like pocketed his Sonic Heroes game thinking that I could like take it home and like put it in my in my DS for some reason, you know, just the kids, kids things. And then eventually I had to like give it back to him basically because I wanted to play it again and I didn't have a GameCube and I had to be like, ⁓ look, I found this under my couch kind of thing. But really I just stole it from him. I was like four years old. ⁓ He was probably the only family member like in any part of my family that was a gamer other than my uncle. who was the one who had the NES. I don't know if I'd say he was a gamer, he, cause he really only had the NES and the one cartridge. ⁓ So it was kind of like, he showed me the ropes and then I kind of took it and ran with it. ⁓ I am glad to say that once I did sort of get into gaming, I did have more of my family that would, you know, they'd buy me games and they would kind of... ⁓ Once they figured out it was something that I was really into so that was kind of nice But I wouldn't say I really had anyone in my family that like was a gamer was there all the time You know I hear people talk about saying like ⁓ their dad showed them this game on like the PC like Monkey Island or whatever and that's awesome ⁓ I wish I could say the same but no I was pretty much the only one doing it and you know some some of my family thought I was kind of weird ⁓ Especially when I decided when I was like, yeah I'm gonna move across the country and make a video games and they're like Did they like pay you to do that? Like you can get paid to make video games and I'm like, yeah It actually makes more money than movies do ⁓ And then they kind of got on board with it after that but Yeah, it was really just my cousin. I would say I think another memory I had as well was playing ⁓ playing Modern Warfare 2 at his house ⁓ when I definitely should not have been allowed to play that game. And then I, so I somehow convinced my parents to buy me that game afterwards. Don't know how I managed to do that. I think I was like nine. So, you know, that was a a little a silver tongue, nine year old Johnny, you know, figuring out how to get, get all of the M rated games that he wanted.
speaker-1: Yeah, got it. it sounds like, yeah, maybe one little inspiration from a cousin, but video games kind of hooked you and became your passion, you know, on your own almost. And you mentioned, you know, kind of finding some friends that kind of fostered that as well as you got a little older,
speaker-0: Yeah, definitely. this I have this kind of like a ⁓ theme, I guess, like throughout my life of like a sort of the misfit, rebellious, like punk sort of vibes on things. ⁓ For whatever reason, I guess I've just always been sort of attracted to whatever the thing is that that ⁓ the people around me are not doing. ⁓ At least growing up in the South, you know, like once I left the South and I moved to Washington and lived in Seattle. I mean, things definitely changed there. I was way more like in the culture of like what that city and what the people on the West Coast are about. I definitely fit in a lot better there, but I definitely did not fit in like that at all when I was in Alabama. was a very, it was very, very tough at times kind of being like the only person in town that's into this thing. ⁓ And it wasn't just games either, you know, it was like, you know, I watched anime and people weren't really into anime and I was like a played, you know, rock guitar in a band. at that time, people were not really into that. It was kind of a weird thing, at least in the, you know, the place where I grew up. So I kind of had that theme a little bit of like, you know, when I was getting into games, I was really the only kid in school that was super into them. So. That's kind of how I found Connection was like if I could find another purchase, one other person that was into the same weird stuff that I was into, then like we can be friends and we can have a good time and we can all hang out and play games together. But I, you know, I did manage to kind of convert some kids as well, you know, I mean, once you, once you get like a bunch of eight year olds together and you're like, ⁓ let's all go to my house and play Super Smash Bros Brawl. Like, okay, you got kids like jumping up and down on the couch like. like going nuts playing those kinds of games and then all of a sudden like it's over you know ⁓ I've had a negative influence on you now and now you're gonna be a gamer for the rest of your life too.
speaker-1: So it sounds like video games were like social glue for you, but it also sounds like they were identity in some ways, right? They kind of, gave you, know, they defined you in a way that was rebellious and contradictory, but you know, but gave you, you know, gave you some identity.
speaker-0: Absolutely, yeah, it's kind of weird to say where it's like I don't feel like people really think about games in that way as being like ⁓ a rebellious sort of punk rock thing ⁓ But that's just kind of the environment that that I was in I mean it was a very ⁓ I sort of repressive environment. know, it was like if you, it's a bit like if you don't fit, the nail that sticks out of the ground kind of gets hammered down. ⁓ You know, everybody wearing the same kind of clothes, everybody kind of talking the same, you know, having sort of the same interests. ⁓ And I just didn't really connect with any of those, like in an identity sense, kind of how you're saying. Like video games are absolutely like a part of my identity. It was like what I spent. most of my time doing. ⁓ And I think, you know, if you play sports, or you, you know, you do, ⁓ like music or some of these other sort of like extracurricular things, I guess, like parents a lot of time feel like, okay, well, that's a good thing for my kid to be doing because they're building towards something or they're like developing a skill that will help them later in life somehow. ⁓ But Nobody looked at video games like that. mean video games were very much considered like time wasters like you're rotting your brain, you know, I mean that's I mean there were still like news stories on TV at that time about like how awful video games were and they're destroying society and they're making kids like violent and all these things so Gaming was a big part of my identity, but I think a lot of people saw that had that perception about games and kind of place that upon me as an individual, ⁓ even though, you know, I'm pretty much just like a normal guy, just like everybody else is, I just like video games and it's,
speaker-1: It's interesting to me, Jonny, because the era that you were growing up, Saying that games were still looked down upon does feel a little backwards, right, for that era. you know, and video games being kind of the rebellious thing was very much an 80s thing. Right, in the 80s, that's what video games were. Video games were still, I mean, I would argue, late 70s, early 80s, right? Video games were still considered this weird thing, you know, that was starting to gain traction, right? It was starting to be popular, but was still kind of this outsider hobby. And to hear you grow up in kind of the, you know, early 2000s, you know, 2010s, and still have that experience, and also feel very connected to the 80s. Suddenly makes a boatload of sense to me. Maybe that's the reach.
speaker-0: That's crazy, that makes so much sense, I've never thought about that once and that makes so much sense actually. Because you're so right, because I grew up in arcades still. mean like, they were home game consoles but you really had to, ⁓ they were not cheap and you're a child so you have to get your parents to buy that for you. I don't think I could have saved up you know, allowance really to buy a GameCube for myself and buy a brand new like $60 games every week or whatever like you had to get your mom to buy that for you. So if your mom did not like that and was like, no, that's going to rot your brain then like, okay, well, I guess I just can't play games. ⁓ And I think that's why a lot of people ⁓ didn't really get into it. I mean, a lot of the people that I know from when I was a kid who were the kind of kids who would bully you for playing games, they play games constantly. know, they have the newest console and they buy the Madden and they buy Call of Duty, they buy Battlefield. mean, they're, they FIFA, you know, all of these games, they're, playing games as much as anybody is. And now, you know, I, I'm sure they wouldn't remember, you know, acting that way or having that opinion about it back in the day. But, you know, the way that things have evolved and changed is, pretty crazy. ⁓ And like the arcade, I mean, I think that's a big contributor to like why it's maybe felt like a waste of time for people or it's like, okay, you gotta go and spend some quarters and it's like a thing you go do on the weekend with your friends. But for me, it was like, I wanna go play some games and I don't have a game console. So like, I need to go to the arcade so I can kinda get my fix in on this.
speaker-1: Hmm, that's cool. So yeah, it sounds like you kind of grew up, you know, almost out of time in a way that you were playing. You started with the NES, you were playing arcade games. Yes, you you ended up with the GameCube and DS and you were kind of on the cutting edge of those consoles. But yeah, no, it's fascinating to me. you mentioned that you were also watching a lot of content, right? I guess, you know, early content on the behind the scenes stuff for video games. And that when you met Breath of the Wild, that gave you that epiphany of like, ⁓ I can make games. Talk to me about that. Like, what was it that drew you to the behind the scenes footage and how did that connect specifically with Breath of the Wild?
speaker-0: That's a great question. ⁓ You know, it really was like the early, I feel like the early era of the internet. And when I say early era, I mean sort of like the 2000s, mid 2000s was very ⁓ different than it is now. It was kind of right before everything got. sanitized and maybe corporatized and all of the sort of companies in the world realized that like, there's a lot of money to be made on the internet. ⁓ But it was still like far enough along that there were a lot of people on the internet. mean, everybody knew what the internet was, you know, there were, you know, YouTube was a thing. Roblox was a big thing. And, you know, if you went on like any of those big websites at the time, like I remember going on new grounds just all the time, every day, I would get on new grounds and look at stuff. I mean, it was totally, totally dominated by video games, like either video game, like fan games or like animations, you know, or people would write like stories like in a game world or they would remix, you know, music from games or cover them like in a different style. I mean, it was everywhere. mean, like Mario and Sonic and all of those, you know, IPs that I grew up with and sort of idolized. mean, they totally dominated. the content creation space. So I watched just so, so, so, so, so much content, so much creative stuff as well that you could never find on the internet today, would never get traction in the modern era of the short form content and everything. Those videos that I watched when I was a kid, nobody will ever see them except for people like me who go back and watch them. But it was still a very formative time and I think it brought a lot of people, myself included. closer to that process where it was like, want to make that. I want to make a fan game or I want to make a fan animation. And so then it's kind of like, well, what kind of tools do I need to do that? How can I figure out how to make an animation so I can make Mario and Sonic fight each other kind of thing or make a Sonic fan game so I can put my own levels in it and do all the things that I would want to have out of a new Sonic game or whatever. Like very early on, was kind of in my, the seeds were being planted like in my brain of like, you need to do something creative with video games. Cause that's kind of where my passion lied. And then as I think the internet evolved and, like I saying, like people kind of realized like, ⁓ wait, you can actually like get paid to like, like a livable wage to make content on the internet. You know, everything sort of leveled up from there. You know, it went from like funny. you know, cool little flash animations to like full like video essays with editing and scripts and excuse me, and like all sorts of things going on from there. So I just kind of transitioned from that like fun little flash game content to like really in depth, like analytical, like quote, for adults kind of content. Cause I feel like a lot of what was being made before was still like for kids. ⁓ but once people realized that, ⁓ wait, adults actually get on the internet and adults want to see stuff about video games too, then it became way more in depth. And then you had like tons and tons of content creators. I mean, like the let's plays and stuff when that took off, that was a huge thing for gaming as well. ⁓ And so I was watching a lot, a lot, a lot of like game makers toolkit kind of videos where it's like, here's a level in, like here's why the first level of Mario is a perfect level. I must've watched that video, whatever, whoever it was by. I must have watched that video like a hundred times just because I thought it was so cool that it was like, wait, no, there actually is like a really deep sort of thought process behind like why you're making the decisions that you are. ⁓ So I just kind of kept watching that and kept absorbing stuff about my favorite games. ⁓ And then, you know, when brother the wild came out, I think, I think I was just in like the perfect moment to have that realization where like, I was older, really had an important decision to make about my future and what I really wanted to do. ⁓ I really wanted to move away. I really wanted to go far away and do something creative and fun. I had the opportunity to do it. I had parents that would support me in doing it, thank God. ⁓ And then I was knowledgeable enough to be able to play that game and appreciate it on that level that I'd never really been able to understand before. But because I'd watched so much content and done, I'd written papers in school about game design and these sorts of things. ⁓ I was able to just really see it for what it was, just a little bit under the current. ⁓ I think I remember the specific thing was the, I don't know what you would call it exactly. It's kind of like the elemental sort of system where like, You can, there's a tree and you can, you can take a, an arrow and you can put it in a bonfire. You can like pull it back, put it in a bonfire, point it at a tree and shoot it at a tree. And then the tree catches on fire. And then, you know, everything, you know, ⁓ the tree burns down and then, ⁓ you know, it's like a different type of, of wood or a different type of resource will drop because you burnt down the tree. Or I remember if you like hunted animals, like, okay, if you, if you lit an arrow on fire and you, shot it at an animal. and the animal dies from the fire arrow, then it's like, oh, okay, well, the meat from the animal is already cooked instead of you having to cook it. And I was just like, boom, like that is so sick. Or like you could take a lightning arrow and you could shoot it into like a pond and it would electrocute the water and zap all the fish. And then all the fish would float up to the surface and then you could just collect them all super easily. And it was like. It was just insane. I just kept, it just keeps going and and going and going. It's like a such, it's like a fully dynamic system. It's not like, you know, we're building in an individual interaction for each thing you could ever possibly think to do, which is how a lot of games before that kind of did. I think of like the sort of Duke Nukem forever thing. Like you can like interact with the environment where it's like, okay, that's cool, but it's pretty limited. That was a game where was like, I feel like I could literally do anything. And it would make, and the game would react in a way that made sense to me. ⁓ And it's like giving the player a little bit of the creativity ⁓ that you have from building the game. It's like you want to give the player the ability to explore ⁓ creative ways of tackling a problem. ⁓ And so all of that sort of just like together, it just all sort of, it's like I'm like looking through the matrix a little bit, but like in the first movie, where I'm like, you still kind of don't really know how to do it. You still can't really like beat all the agents, you know, but you still can see through the matrix. And it's like, okay, there's potential here. You know, like now it's time to actually train and figure out how to do that by actually going to school for it.
speaker-1: I got it. Yeah, that's cool. So it almost sounds like the combination of seeing people, regular people make games, know, make content around games and then digesting behind the scenes and, you know, breakdowns of how games are made kind of gave you the ammunition to look at a game that is very, I think they call it the chemistry system or something like that.
speaker-0: Yes, chemistry system. That's exactly right.
speaker-1: Yeah, and see that as a design, an execution of design. And it sounds like design was the thing that really got you. Yeah, it wasn't the art, it wasn't the animation, it wasn't the VFX, it was the design, it was how it worked. Is that something that you're generally interested with? Do you find yourself being someone that likes understanding how things work or is it just video games that really highlight that for you?
speaker-0: think I'm definitely like that in general. mean, with games specifically, was kind of like, I really was attracted to the art. Like the art is definitely like the first thing that attracts me to a game is the art and the visuals like every time. That's what attracts me to the game. ⁓ But I'm not like the world's greatest artist. And especially then I was like, I didn't really have the artistic ability. to really make anything on that level. So I was like, it's really attractive to me and it's really cool. And I had friends that were artists. I'm like, that's really impressive that you can do that. But I also know you and I know how long it took you to get there and how much work it took. So at that point I was like, there's no way I could do that. And there's the programming and implementation side of things, which later on I learned and appreciated about. But at that time I had absolutely no idea how that worked at. I mean we had literally there's there's zero exposure to programming or computer science at all in my school and I even went to like a you know, don't want to a private school that was supposed to be like, you know, the higher like a very higher education thing and and we didn't have any any tech courses or computer science and this is in 2018 and there is no programming courses, you know available so I had Absolutely no idea what the hell is going on. Like how do you program a game? L if I know. ⁓ So that was just not even on my radar at all. I had no idea what went behind that. But design, it was like design. I can I can think about games. It's like I can even if I can't draw and I can't program, I can still think and understand like what makes a game fun. Like what like I could think about that chemistry system. And I could think about how it works. I could kind of identify how does it work? How does it function in the game? And I can also identify like, why is it so cool? Like What makes it so cool outside of just how it works? Like, why is it fun? Like, why do I get a satisfaction out of using it? Like, why does it feel so intuitive and things like that? So, and that's sort of kind of leading into like UX and things as well. So I think I was really attracted to that because it was something that I felt confident that I could actually do, even though I'd never had like a formal education on how to do it. ⁓ It was like, I could think about games even if I can't. draw something, know, draw a landscape or even if I can't program like a grappling hook kind of thing.
speaker-1: Yeah, that makes sense. so, so you're, you're fascinated by how games are made. You start, you're sort of starting to understand, feel like you're seeing behind the curtain a little bit. And then you pick up your life and you move across country, like you said, to DigiPen and presumably go from having almost zero exposure to technology creation to nothing but exposure to. So how was that like? moving across country to pursue this dream that you had, right, to make video games. Like, how was that?
speaker-0: ⁓ man, ⁓ it was a crazy experience from beginning to end, think I would say. It was definitely like the right move. Like I do not regret the choice at all, but thinking back on it, I'm kind of like, I can't believe my parents let me do that. Like an 18 year old going across the country, know, someplace I'd never even like visited. I mean, Seattle in particular was like a city I really wanted to live in because I played ⁓ Infamous Second Son, ⁓ which is like a sucker punch game, I think and ⁓ their studio is there and the game takes place in Seattle and and I just absolutely love that game and like the city walking around the city. It's very accurate. So I was super attracted to that. So I'm like, okay, that's the city. That's the school and let's go and do it. The problem is ⁓ so DigiPen only does game degrees. They only do games. They are not like a bigger, they have maybe like 1500 students at one time. And you know, they have bachelor of arts in game design, you know, bachelor of science in game, in game programming, you know, bachelor of arts in music and sound design, you know, bachelor of fine arts and digital arts and animation and every single one of those programs is 100 % focused and built around making games. and not even not not only that but the Probably like the biggest reason that people go to digiPen as opposed to maybe go into a different You know sort of game focus program is because of the projects so when you're a your freshman year You know, you're basically like they're basically just trying to see if you can do this your sophomore year That's when like okay, you've taken a year of game development classes Now we're gonna actually take the reins off and let you make a game like with a game team. So you have game 200, which is the project course and it lasts two semesters. So it goes the whole year. And at the beginning, you ⁓ as a students go up and front of like an assembly basically, and you pitch your game that you want to make. And everybody in your class and all the degrees are all sitting in the audience. and they basically sit there and listen and then you all just go and make your own teams with different disciplines. you just, it's totally like self-directed, like whatever game you want to make in whatever engine you want to make it in with whatever amount of people you want to do it with. And you know, the professors try to like make sure you don't do anything to totally set yourself up for complete failure. ⁓ despite though we did still do that sometimes despite their best efforts. ⁓ But that's kind of why people go to that school is like, you get to actually have game projects with the whole team and everything. So it was it was a really great environment to learn game development and learn all sides of game development. Because you know, once you get on, you know, it's one thing learning how to do design in your class. It's another thing when you're on a team with artists with programs with musicians with you know, all sorts of different people and you actually have to work with them to make the game to get the game to work because you all get the same grade at the class. So what however good the project is, that's the grade that everybody is getting. So it was really cool in that way. But it was really ⁓ uncool in the way that if you don't like games, or if you, you know, start your degree and it find you find out that ⁓ wait, this is not actually for me. you pretty much have to drop out because there's nothing else for you to transfer to. It's not like, you know, like USC was another big, you know, one that I was, ⁓ that's around that I was considered going to and like, okay, if I did the game program at USC and I didn't really like it, okay, well there's 80,000 students at this school. There's every degree you could possibly imagine. Like you can find something else and you can just transfer and you can still be a four year student. ⁓ Not so at DigiPen. If you went there and you did not like it and you had to drop out, well, you gotta leave. And none of your credits are gonna transfer either to wherever you go because like it's game design courses. It's like specifically focused on this thing. So it's kinda like I went out there, I had no experience at all, didn't even know what I was getting into and got super lucky that I actually liked it and I could actually do it. Because if I didn't, I don't even know what would have happened. Like, I don't know where I would have gone or what I would have done. So, got really lucky in that case.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. So very much for the people that either already know they love it or better blooming well love it because otherwise they're in trouble. And it sounds like you went there with sort of a design focus. How did you find out, you know, like being exposed to all the other parts of video games, the way they're made? How did you find your way through that? Did design remain the thing that you loved the most or did you find other things that interested you? How did that go?
speaker-0: Well, when I went at first, I went to basically visit and they have their visiting day where you can go and you can talk to all the different professors and hear from the students and things. I think what really has kept me going through college ⁓ and even, and especially now, working in game dev where it's like a totally different world and you have to be an adult and you have to pay your bills and do all these sorts of things is the people. like in the game dev community. ⁓ You know, I remember when I visited DigiPen, you know, every, every student that I talked to basically was, it was almost like they were trying to convince you to not come because they were telling you how they're like, this is the most like difficult, grueling, like time consuming, you know, ⁓ thing you could possibly be doing. I even had like the, head of the design program was like, You should only be doing this if there is literally nothing else you can do. If like this is it and this is what you're gonna do and there's nothing else. Because it's not easy and it's not an easy industry to get into and even once you're there, it's very difficult and it's a challenge for everybody involved. But even that said, all the people I talked to were so enthusiastic and just like genuinely. loved what they were doing. Like they wouldn't trade it for anything. They're like, yeah, it sucks and it's really hard and it's a lot of collaboration. It's a lot of people skills, a lot of this and that, but everybody there was so passionate about games ⁓ in a way that I had never met. Like I'd never met any other people who were like as passionate about games as I was. And it was like, this is a school with literally everybody here is like that. ⁓ And that that has kind of continued into my professional game dev careers. Every game dev I meet is the most awesome people in the world, honestly. Everybody is so passionate about what they're doing and not only about their discipline, but your discipline. They want to know everything about everything you're doing, even if they can't do it. They're just fascinated by the process. You know, and everybody is so supportive and just like loving of each other ⁓ in a way that I don't think many industries have. Like, I think there's this sort of ladder climbing effect that happens with a lot of, you know, tech adjacent industries like we are. ⁓ And I just don't feel that. Like, I just don't feel that vibe from other game devs. It's like everybody genuinely wants each other to succeed. and they want to be a part of your journey, basically, which is really awesome. I had no idea, I guess I could feel that when I first started getting into game dev, and I think that's what really pushed me along, because I ⁓ had a really hard time with programming and things, especially. I had a really hard time learning that, having absolutely zero exposure to it and just having to pick it up and do it. I'm not a math guy. at all. but having those people around me, and having them be so open and helpful, and like everybody, like we're all in this together kind of vibe was was great. And, you know, even today, I try to keep keep as much of that with me as I can about being passionate about what other game devs do, wanting to hear about their stories, kind of like how you do with this podcast, you know, just wanting to know what you do. And, and ⁓ how you got there just because it's fascinating and it's cool and everybody in the community is so awesome. ⁓ It's really been, it was really a great experience.
speaker-1: Yeah, I can only imagine moving from somewhere where you were kind of an outcast, someone that did something that most people didn't do to a place where everybody does it. And not only do they do it, but it's what they're all about. Must have fueled your fire so much. You must have felt like home instantly.
speaker-0: It absolutely did. And if anything, if anything, like I was the one who was like not that much into games now. I was like, I was around people who were like way more, way deeper into it than I was. People who were like, I mean, I mean, so many people who are like, yeah, I've known that I wanted to be a game dev since I was like six years old. And I'm like, really? That is crazy. Like that's a crazy journey to go on. from your entire life basically being like, I'm gonna be a game dev and I'm gonna make this happen. And then they do it. And it's like, has, that is so like, and I'm sitting here like, is the one that I'm like, I just kind of decided to do this because like, I, was like, it was like the professor said, it's like, this is the only thing I feel like I can do, you know, like this is the thing I have to do. And so now I'm here and I'm hanging out with these people who are like, I've had this school on my radar since I was eight years old, which is just wild. wild stuff to me. But that's that's also the same reason that I go to that I go to GDC every year, like the fueling the fire, because that's absolutely what happened. Or it was like, I kind of thought I could do it. But then being around so many people that were so into it, and having the camaraderie, it's almost like you're on like a sports team kind of vibe, where everybody's into it, everybody wants each other to succeed, you know, and especially like a projects and game teams. I mean, we live we are on the same team, you know, we have to work together. ⁓ That's the reason why I go to GDC every year is because, no matter what I'm feeling like, you know, no matter what the industry is looking like, ⁓ especially this year, it's like I can go and I can talk to game devs and I can hang out with them all week and I can hear all about their stories. I can meet people in AAA, I can meet people in India, can meet people in art, music, sound programming, writing, crazy jobs that I'm like, I had no idea that was even a thing you could do. Like I met someone this year that was like, ⁓ yeah, I'm a death consultant on games. Like I'm, I'm like an expert on death. So people come to me, game companies call me and, and I tell them like how to represent dead people in their game. And I'm like, that's a job that you get paid to do. That is insane. And it's, it's just like game devs are awesome and wonderful and quirky and cool. And we have the craziest, most amazing job in the world and getting to meet all of them and just hang out with them all week absolutely is like builds that fire back up. It's like whatever I gotta do to make it happen, like I gotta make it happen. You know, it's just what I have to do.
speaker-1: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I I think we are in an industry that is full of crazy people that are very passionate about what they do. I wouldn't want to be anywhere else. ⁓ So I want to talk a little bit about, like you mentioned, we worked together at CineMax. You joined as an intern ⁓ and on the UX track. how did you get from DigiPen and having a focus on design? into UXUI and then getting that internship. Like how was that? How did that happen? And what did that feel like to land that role?
speaker-0: Well, I'm very lucky that I had a fantastic, fantastic professor in college. ⁓ Her name is Jamie Lukens. she, at the time, she was a DigiPen alumni and she was the lead UI UX ⁓ on Destiny 2. And she would come and teach classes as like an adjunct professor. So at first she had just had one class and it was the one UX design class. as part of the game design sort of track that we had. And she just, she was just awesome. Like it was just the most like engaging and cool class. Like it kind of combined the things, the two things that I was most interested in, which was game design and psychology. And I was like, wait, this is it. I'm like, this is the one. I can actually combine my two special interests into one thing and hopefully get it and actually get a job doing that. taking her class and then, you know, having her do some, mentoring with me as well really ⁓ inspired me to actually pursue UX specifically. So, you know, I'm eternally grateful to her for, for actually coming in and teaching us what UX is because you know, as As anyone who's in UI UX who's listening to this knows, it is really hard to explain to somebody what you actually do or why you need somebody like that on your game team. So when you meet somebody that has just the silver tongue for it, and can explain it in a way that just makes sense and is cool and engaging, that's someone you want on your team for sure. So from there, we graduated and I, that was my first year coming to GDC, working for GDC. This year was my fifth, you know, so they, obviously I had a great time the first time and kept coming back. But that was my first exposure to actually meeting other people in game dev outside of just my school. I said, I actually got to walk around and meet people and talk to, you know, and it was kind of awkward because I was like a little, I was like 22 and I was like, uh. I don't know what I'm doing here. I don't even know what I'm going to be doing after I graduate. But I had that opportunity and I got to meet so many other game devs that sort of ⁓ inspired me with their stories ⁓ and taught me to be persistent and resilient, which I think are two key things you need to be in any creative industry. ⁓ So that really lit that fire where I was like, OK, I'm ready. Let's do this. I'm like, I know what I want to do. I know I can do it. ⁓ And then I got, I just got so lucky to have ⁓ Ben, Ben Jones came to my university for our career ⁓ fair. So Zen Exhaust was one of the companies that was there. And man, it was a messed up year because it was still like COVID stuff was happening. And normally you'd have a career fair like in person like We would actually have people come to the school and we would, people would set up, students would set up booths to show off their game and they would decorate their booths. And it was kind of like a hire me pitch with all of your projects that you'd made. But we were still at like in post COVID stuff. So instead of doing that, we got to do virtual sessions and each virtual session was five minutes. So you got five minutes to talk to a company and somehow make an impression on them to, that they want to like convince them to hire you in those five minutes. ⁓ as a student, ⁓ which was really intimidating. But Ben Jones was one of the people that came to visit and we just had a really good camaraderie dynamic. We just really hit it off in those five minutes. ⁓ think he could feel where I was coming from, where I was like, I'm just really, at that moment I was just so hungry to do something. ⁓ And I did hit on the thing as well where I really wanted to make an MMO. Like I really wanted to work on an MMO RPG because that's like, you know, one of the really big sort of genres for me playing like, especially when I was a teenager, I was like, you know, I've made single player games, I've made like side scrollers, I've made immersive experience things in college. And I'm like, and now I really want to work on something big and cool with a big team and get to like, really be a part of that process. So I really lucked out having Ben show up. and having us hit it off and having that be the exact thing that they, you know, we were making. ⁓ And it just sort of ended up getting that internship from there, which I didn't even apply to. I actually didn't even know it was a thing. I just kind of got a call one day from them and they were like, hey, we want to do a, you know, a phone screen with you and the UIUX team, which was Hannah and Kara at the time at SOS. So. That's kind of how I became an intern and it's funny too because I was actually when I got the like offer to come in and be an intern, I actually wanted to turn it down because I was like, ⁓ I'm a graduated. Internships are for like ⁓ juniors, like junior year going into senior year. That's what internships are for. I'm a senior, I'm graduated. I should be getting a full time job, dang it. And my mom was like, you're gonna be the stupidest person on the planet if you turn down that internship. And I was like, okay, mom, I guess I'll do it. So, thank you, mom.
speaker-1: Yeah, mean, interns an interesting role to kind of take on, right? It's a great opportunity. It's an incredible opportunity to work with an actual team on an actual project and build something. you've also got, know, they're not invariably, they're not particularly well paid. It was a long way away from you, right? You're in Seattle still, I presume.
speaker-0: I was actually back in Alabama at that time too. So I was like, yeah, I was like, I need a full-time job so I can get out of here again.
speaker-1: Right, right, right. So the internship kind of came at the right time and gave you that opportunity to move again for what you wanted to do. And it sounds like you sort of walked into the role that, like you said, combined your two favorite passions right away, like on a huge project with a huge team. That must have been a shock to the system.
speaker-0: It is. is kind of like a, yeah, this is kind of a historical thing that I guess I just do. I think this is just like, I think it's just like part of my personality at this point. Like every couple of years or so, I guess I just feel like I need to do something like absolutely crazy and just like way out there and just make like a super huge change ⁓ in my life. Cause I mean, I went from being Alabama to moving to Seattle and doing that whole thing and not knowing anybody out there and having to make friends and build a community and learn and actually graduate and pass on my classes. ⁓ And then, you know, going from there all the way back across the country again to another place in Baltimore to work on a, you know, at a huge studio. And when I'd only ever made like really tiny like indie games, sort of student experiences ⁓ and just diving straight into that and going on that roller coaster. So I think that's kind of a thing that is like part of my personality at this point that it's like if I have to do something like crazy outlandish and you just like totally you know up in my life and go into another chapter I guess which is pretty much what I'm I think I'm going to be doing very soon here again I'm definitely getting the the itch to to like move and meet new people and do this whole thing again it's really just like finding the right opportunity to do that
speaker-1: Yeah, that very much sounds like you, Jonny. That sounds like you're, you know, from just from this conversation, right? That desire to follow your passion and, you know, not really caring too much whether people around you, you know, like it or not, but, you know, just wanting to be with the right people, making the thing that you're passionate about and wherever that may be. I think that sounds like that speaks to you as a person.
speaker-0: Absolutely. mean, hey, you know, you know, there are there are always going to be people in life who just don't like you, you know, they just don't like you. They just don't like what you're doing. And there's nothing you can do to change those people's minds or or make them think any differently of you. It's like the only thing that you can control is, you know, what you do about that. You know, and in my opinion, it's like you just got to leave those people behind, you know, because as long as you're, you know, authentic and you're true to yourself and you're doing the things that you do, that makes you really happy and as long as you're not hurting anybody, you know, you'll always find the people that you're really meant to be around. At least that's been my experience is like, you know, no matter where you go, as long as you're authentic and you're yourself, you can find your people and you can find your sort of space to exist and be happy. So that's, I guess that's how I kind of look at it.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great way to look at it. I think game dev is, as you mentioned earlier, right? Game dev is a great place for that because there are a lot of, you know, a lot of us are strange and weird and have this passion that we're super into. you know, it pulls us together in a way that, you know, almost like you talked about, right? The kind of misfits that gang together and, you know, and rebel and do what they want to do. It almost feels like that's the spirit of video games. Certainly was the spirit of video games in 70s and the 80s, less so now with the more corporate side, but it's still present there. think it's still there. Still in a D &I.
speaker-0: Especially in like indie spaces as well. I saw a lot of indie stuff at GDC this year, way more than usual. So I think that that rebellious spirit and just making stuff that is just totally off the wall is really coming back in a strong way right now. I feel like maybe that kind of got pushed down a little bit and now... Everybody's kind of sick of it and they're like bouncing back. Let's just make the craziest thing we possibly can and people love it. I mean, they're winning awards for it.
speaker-1: For sure. So as we start to wind this down, I do want to ask you, know, ZeniMax was your first professional role. You, you know, you moved your way up. You started as an intern, moved your way through associate to, you know, kind of mid-level. And then it goes away. How do you, you know, as an old, like me, who's been through it a few times, right? That's, you get used to it, but for you, you you've, you've, you've got this opportunity and then it's taken away. Like, how did you process that? How did that leave you when it happened?
speaker-0: You know, I think right in the moment that it happened, I was very confused. I was very just like confused and not really like understanding what was going on. You know, I'd never been through that sort of layoff process before. So I really had no idea how it was going to go. ⁓ but I honestly didn't feel, I didn't feel so upset about it until like much later. ⁓ because you know, the, the game that You know, we were making the game that we were making and we were making a lot of progress, but there was still work to be done. You know, it was not finished. It was not really a place where like, okay, I can show my friends a trailer of the game and like it's real. Like I guess to me, the game was still not really real because I couldn't actually tell any of my friends about it or show them a trailer or release date or whatever. You know, it was unannounced. It's all very secretive. It's all very, you know, in the vault. you know, now type of thing. So for me, I guess in my head, the game was still not very real. So once the game was kind of taken away, I didn't have as strong feelings about, nobody's going to get to see that work, at least not at first. I wasn't as attached to the actual project that we were making. I think probably because I'd been taught so much to like not get attached to your ideas as a designer. Because everything gets iterated, everything gets changed, you know, it's not a personal thing. It's just you're trying to make the best game that you can. So if that idea doesn't work for the player or it doesn't work for your development, then you're just going to have to change it and throw it out. So like, you know, don't get too attached, you know, and if it gets thrown out, like, okay, you can be upset about it, but get over it, you know, we got to move on. And that's just how things go. ⁓ But once you know, as time sort of passed by, I realized that that The thing that I really miss the most is the team, is the actual people that I worked with. I mean, you know, I'm sure you've had a lot of people come on here and say this about the team, but it really was like a great, amazing team to work with. And for me, it's like, was my only experience is working alongside that team. And everybody was very collaborative, very, you know, fun and casual. And we all felt like, it really felt like, okay, well, this is... This is me and 400 of my friends all getting together to make a game together. You know, it was a very like happy and fun and positive vibe in the room. Every time we got together to meet on something, you know, of course we all butt heads sometimes on things, but at the end of the day, you know, we can, we can hug it out and we're all still cool with each other and we're all still really happy to be working alongside one another. And you know, now that that's gone, I really miss that. I really miss being able to have that team around and create something that's really special. I think I learned about myself that the collaboration is really what makes Game Dev so special for me. It's ⁓ not just artists, it's not just a ⁓ programming project, it's not just an art piece, it's not just a you know, a design document or whatever. It's like this crazy amalgamation of like every discipline, every artistic creative discipline out there all meshed into this one, you know, insane project. ⁓ And that's, that's like the fun. That's the fun part of making games is that you get to work with all those people. I mean, you have your thing that you do. And like, you're the expert at and obviously you can hopefully you enjoy doing that. ⁓ But it's really about getting to see what everybody else can contribute to the team and what you can create together You know that in that in product that you get is Really something that none of the individuals of all of you would have been able to make on your own and especially when you have a huge Project it's like you're creating something that's that's really special ⁓ But even still, you know, it was really the people that left the biggest impact on me and I feel really Spoiled ⁓ to have that be my first game dev experience ⁓ You know all those like horror stories and things that I heard in college. I've heard at GDC from different people I know I Never really experienced any of that on on our team I mean, you know, we have our spats here and there but for the most part it was a really great, you know Fun time, you know, we're not we're not crunching. We're not at each other's throats. We're not you know having you know drama all the time between you know, this, that and who and the other, you know, it was really just a very highly collaborative and friendly and loving environment. And I really miss that more than I miss anything ⁓ at this point. And I also am kind of annoyed that I can't put any of that on my portfolio, but that's that's a whole other that sucks.
speaker-1: Yeah, you put multiple years into it and no one else gets to see it,
speaker-0: That's more of a problem you get into now that you're trying to like find your next opportunity and you're like, ⁓ what can I, I can't even like, that's annoying.
speaker-1: is frustrating. So yeah, so a couple of last questions. It sounds like video games have defined you, like you said, and have very much been your passion. If you weren't making video games, what would you be doing?
speaker-0: Hmm. I think I would probably be trying to do something in the music industry. I mean, that's what kind of my original passion was ⁓ when I was in high school. I really thought for a while there that that was going to be my future. That like that's what I was going to be doing was I was going to be making music. At that time, I was like, I'm going to be playing guitar. going to be singing. I'm going to be doing these sorts of things. ⁓ Now, nowadays that I have a much better insights into what that process really looks like. I think I probably could do it now. Like if I had to choose right now, if I had to switch career paths right now to something totally different, I think I would probably go into music and music production. Because that's like another thing that I can totally like dive into. and I can get super immersed in and learn about the same way that it kind of was when I was really learning about game dev growing up and being in college. It's like, I know enough to know that there's so much more that I could learn about it and there's so much skill to develop. ironically, I decided not to go into the music industry because I wanted to go into a more stable industry. So I decided to be a game developer. ⁓
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: That didn't
speaker-1: At times that's true, right now maybe less so unfortunately. Is there any correlation between the of the creativity and the satisfaction you get from making music to the creativity and the satisfaction you get from making games?
speaker-0: Yeah, absolutely. mean, I mean, you know, you know, this as an artist, as a creative person, it's kind of like you have this, it's like you have this sort of animal in you that like, it needs to come out. all of the I think creatives are very like emotional people. They you know, they they experience every emotion very strongly. And I think the best creatives, the best artists are the ones that are able to Distill that like in its purest form into something into whatever it is So whether that's you're making a game or you're making a song you're making, you know a painting whatever it is I think that is like the essence of being a creative So it's really about finding that one thing that like really connects with you personally ⁓ Like the thing that that that you're able to take what you have in your head and and make it into reality It's kind of like whatever medium really works best for you as a creative, that's what you should be doing. you really, it's like, you kind of have to. You kind of have to because if you don't get it out, it'll kind of eat you alive. I've realized at several times in my life that when I've been really like down and not feeling it, I'm like, man, when was the last time I went to like a concert? When was the last time I like wrote a song or like worked on something? ⁓ And it's very correlated to it's like you just kind of get that bottled up and it will eat away at you. ⁓ So for me, that is music. That was kind of my original thing. So that's what I always come back to. ⁓ And I also listen to like eight hours of music a day. like, it's kind of like, well, I'm already doing that. So might as well try to like actually, you know, see how what it's like to make music. ⁓ But I think it's definitely correlated. And plus, it's a lot quicker to write a song or, you know, make a ⁓ do some music production than it is to like develop a whole game. You know, you can get that finished sort of product out and be like, I did a thing. Here you go. Let me send it to my friends. And here it is. It's packaged and I finished it. You know, you can do that in a much shorter time than it would take you to make even the most simple game, you know, out there. So that definitely helps as well. It's kind of like you can sort of supplement. the creative energy a little bit better with something that you can pump out faster as compared to games which as you know can go years and years and years and years years and years and years and still never even come out and then it's like where does that leave you at the end of the day?
speaker-1: Yeah, they sure can. I love that sentiment, that sentiment of kind of the creative beast inside that has to have an outlet. And I empathize with that a lot. There's definitely times where I had it just the other week where I was like, I feel like I'm down. ⁓ yeah, I haven't played anything for like a week. now that's probably, I should just play something and then I sit down and play something and then suddenly I don't even think about it and I feel better. So yeah, I completely, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely, definitely similar. Well, thanks, Johnny. I really appreciate your time. It's been a great conversation. love, that's a great story, know, that the risks you've taken, that, where you grew up and the opportunities you've grabbed and, you know, I'm excited to see what you do next. yeah, yeah, thank you for taking the time to talk through it with me. And it was really fun.
speaker-0: ⁓ thank you. Yeah, this was this was great. I'm really glad I got a chance to chat with you again. It's been a while since we've seen each other. So yeah, really enjoyed getting a chance to talk and talk about myself and tell a little bit about my story. Get some of that off my off my chest. And I hope I get a chance to work with you again in the future because yeah, I really feel like we missed out on getting to do some like really good feature work together on just something. I'll keep an eye on and see what you're up to and you keep an eye on what I'm up to and hopefully we can land in the same spot. Or hey, if you're ever at GDC as well, ⁓ I'm literally there every year, work there every year, highly recommend it as well.
speaker-1: Yeah, it's been a while since I've been, so I definitely want to go again. yeah, I'd love to. It's a very small industry, hopefully our paths will again in the future. But yeah, thanks.
speaker-0: It's been great. Thanks. See ya.
