speaker-1: I would like to say something about my astonishment at reading a poll, a survey from Morningcast that had cast a wide net and discovered that a full fifty-seven percent of young people would like to have a career as an influencer. Which which seems just astonishing. that with all of the variety in the world now possible of things that you might choose to do, that fifty-seven percent of young people wanted to be an influencer.
speaker-0: And of course that's absurd because if more than half of the population is an influencer, who are you influencing other than yourself? Well
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: maybe one other person.
speaker-1: So already we've hit one of the great ironies that everybody wants to lead, nobody is there to follow. So it's an impossibility. It's like I want to be on top of the pyramid. Well, you can't, there isn't a pyramid if you don't have levels underneath you. But of course, what intrigues me is what is the psychological impetus to desire that. Right. Because that's shifted. I mean in previous generations people may have aspired to be a movie star and and why would an influencer now so rank so much higher? Good point. Isn't that interesting?
speaker-0: Maybe it's less work to be an influencer than a movie star.
speaker-1: I think that in fact they're borrowing from exactly the same archetype. And the reason that people say influencer is that influencer is is more up close and personal. They see it on every media platform. You don't have to buy a ticket and go to a theater to see a movie star. I mean, you do to see the movie star, but to see an influencer, you pick up any of your gadgets and you can find people who are. being influencers so they are now everywhere
speaker-0: And the more average Joe, the influencer, the more relatable too.
speaker-1: let's start close in with again the impetus to want to be an influencer. Because it apparently starts very young. Right? If you're asking preteens what do you want to be and they say an influencer, there's not even a thought in their head of what they might be an expert in. Right? So qualification has nothing to do with it. So knowing
speaker-0: Right.
speaker-1: that it's not what you're qualified to do, what you recognize you have a talent in, it's something that has been projected on the screen of the imagination as being desirable. And what exactly is it that's so desirable? And I think that you will immediately sense the reality of this when I say the desire to be an influencer is to have an audience. Yeah. That that's the nub of it. To be seen. Because an influencer without an audience cannot be an influencer. Influencer requires audience in order to be itself. So before you're an expert, before you have anything to say, you want an audience. But in fact, this has always been the case. And I would simply invite anybody, any listener, to throw their mind back to the last time you were with a group of children, and the number one phrase that comes out of their mouth is, look at me!
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: So in child psychology, this is the development of the persona. It's an absolutely essential part of becoming a human being. The child requires the witness, requires the mirror, requires the audience, in order to get any sense of self. So you're developing the persona. Now I want people to grasp that word because that's really an important word: persona. It sounds like person, but it's not really about you. It's not a self. It's not a descriptor of the self. The persona comes from the Greek word for mask. The persona is your public mask. It's the face that you wear that other people will see. And so the reason that you do look at me, look at me is because you're testing whether your mask works. So to take it from the young child to the older child or young adult who wants to be an influencer, it's still about testing the mask. So it's about popularity. And we know that Homo sapiens are incredibly driven. status, popularity, belonging, these are absolutely critical for our survival, really. You know, I mean forget happiness, just to survive and feel like you ha have a place on the planet, you need a certain amount of feedback that says, I see you, you're okay, you belong, we'll accept you.
speaker-0: evolutionarily if we were ostracized from the group it would mean it would just certainly mean death. And so to be high on the totem pole to be considered with respect would mean that I'm safe, I'm secure within the group.
speaker-1: Yeah. And so the development of the mask, and you can see this in young children, it's so delightful because they'll try on multiple masks and in fact they'll realize that one mask doesn't work at all with dad, but it works well with mom. And you can actually see the f the facial features shift as they go from dad, who's just not gonna show them sympathy because they fell down and went boom. But they put on the face because mom will immediately do what they want. Right? I mean we can see this. Or a child in school. One thing just doesn't work with this teacher, but in another classroom with a different teacher, that face works beautifully. So there are some kids who will try on the the smart aleck or the kid who always acts out. But if it doesn't work They can morph, they can switch it around and and try to have a slightly different persona in this class if that's what will work. But here's the problem with personas is that we tend to get trapped behind the mask that works the best. Which is what family dynamics therapy is all about, right? That in every family the child has figured out what mask works in order to find your place in the family. And then you realize you can't get it off. You're always gonna be the problem child, or you're always the smart one, or you're always the nice one, and then you have to play into it year after year after year. And finally in your forties you go to therapy and the therapist helps you sort of pry it off like Right? Yeah. But to me this is the key thing. Yes, development of persona is good. And better to get it from a lot of people than just mom, dad, brother, sister, teacher. I mean if you can get a hundred people being your audience, then your mask experiment is so much fuller. You get so much more feedback, and if you get people to like you and subscribe, The masked persona is now safe. This is this is good. I am somebody because I have a mask that people like and accept. But the danger, and I'm sure you can see what's coming here, the danger is that the mask has never been yourself.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: So the more energy, the more libido you throw into the mask making, the less energy is available for actually discovering who am I behind the mask. And so that part of you begins to dwindle. It gets smaller. It it has no limelight. It doesn't know how to step into life or onto the stage. And so the persona, and I have to say, I know a lot about this. I'm a three on the Enneagram. The three is the performer. I grew up in a family of folk singers performing on stage. I was on stage by age seven, performing for. You know, hundreds of people. I know all about this dynamic, the mask versus the self. And it is very hard to take the mask off. Because you're stuck. It's like going back to to ground zero. Do I have a place? Will anybody see me? Will I be accepted? Will I belong? It's the same struggle all over again once you've put the mask down.
speaker-0: The great darkness is is that Trying to get your identity or ego needs met through the mask is a never-ending po pouring into a void. It's it's never going to make you feel seen because you're literally not showing yourself to anybody. You're taking the the non-vulnerable artificial self and and showing it, showing it, showing it. Right. And and all that can do is get you a little drips of self-esteem. It can never give you a full sense of ego of self. Correct. Of I am a a unique human being. being who is deserving of love and and worthy of being in my community.
speaker-1: Yeah, and in fact it almost works against it because you think people only love me for my mask if they knew who I really am, right?
speaker-0: Thanks.
speaker-1: So we know that being an influencer actually has been a career choice for hundreds, if not thousands, of people. But in the last couple of years, I've seen this myself on on YouTube. That people who were big influencers, ever since AI began to tweak the algorithms and it's harder to get in front of people, there have been now confessionals of influencers actually taking off the mask and saying, you know, to all my followers, here's why I'm not doing it anymore. Or to all my my followers. I'm sorry, but I I can't sustain it. I'm I've got to take a break. I'm out. It's too hard. This is crushing. So some people are beginning to hit the place where they realize the futility of what they've been trying to do and the neglect of the genuine self that's now crying out for real psychological attention. So we'll see whether enough of these confessions. can turn the tide or whether young people still see this as the most viable low bar entry to getting a self, getting heard. And in a sense, this is a shadow, an unanticipated shadow side of the whole internet craze. Because if you go back in human history and recognize that we all came out of tribal groups, community groups, that were f fairly small, right? Fifty to one hundred and fifty, that was the maximum. And even at a hundred and fifty, you recognize everybody.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: But when you are now in a global environment, there is no way that you are going to be known with the kind of depth and intimacy that Homo sapiens actually require for psychological development.
speaker-0: Yeah. And this this very basic impulse to feel like I am worthy, I am a valued member of the tribe, that's even harder to place because we're we're in careers now that are like you're disposable, everyone's replaceable now. if you're not cut pulling your weight with this, we'll find somebody else to do that job. And in a in a tribal society, that wouldn't be the case. Like you you would have been the one of the only people in the tribe trained to do that thing and you're like if it's not you it can't be somebody else. Like there'd be a little bit more of that sense of of uniqueness, a unique value within the tribe.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, the the original promise of the World Wide Web was that you would get to share your talents and share your ideas for very little money, right? You could anybody could start a website or a podcast and share their ideas. But of course the The counterbalance to that is yes, but now you're competing against all the other billions of people that are on the planet. Right. So the low bar entry doesn't really matter anymore. Because if it's low bar, it means everybody can jump in.
speaker-0: Right.
speaker-1: So the possibility of actually getting the kind of articulate personified feedback that would actually make a difference to you. Is very, very rare. I I I'm thinking now of that very dark cartoon of a funeral and a s a coffin and all of these chairs
speaker-0: And
speaker-1: one person.
speaker-0: he had two thousand Facebook friends. I expected a bigger turnout.
speaker-1: that's it. That's it in a nutshell. Two thousand members of an audience and one person, probably the mother, shows up to the funeral. Because these are not your real friends. This is not your real community. Every member of that audience probably said, like, like, like, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe to hundreds of others, right? It's all coming across their feet and they're just scrolling through. So there's no Real interaction. It's illusory in the most dangerous kind of way. influencer and audience, but you can feel that right there in that diet is the hunger for relationship.
speaker-0: Yeah. And and being known.
speaker-1: and being seen.
speaker-0: Yeah. And I almost think that that's more important. If I was to guess what's the real depth of this, it's that we need to see ourselves. Because you told me recently that you were that that you were looking through your your late husband's things. And as you were pawing through years of his history, you realized that even though you knew him best of anyone, that you still hardly knew him.
speaker-1: That's right. The unknowability of the depth of a human being. Yeah, it was pretty overwhelming that there was so much I did not know about this man that I had spent so many years living beside. But that's true for all of us, right? The depth of a single human being is a world. Right. It's a whole world. And it's not knowable by everyone, and certainly not by two thousand Facebook friends.
speaker-0: And I guess the question is, is it even knowable by ourselves? Can we even know the depths of what we are or who we are?
speaker-1: Hmm. Well, curiously, it seems that we need other human beings to help us see it. Because we always have the shadow, which we can't see. It's in the unconscious. And so the only way to bring it out is to have other people who are brave enough and kind enough to help us resurrect those parts of ourself that we've thrown over our shoulder because they didn't fit the mask that we were polishing up, right? I will tell you that one of the most valuable chapters in my training as a Jungian coach had to do with the coach's ability to look at the client you're working with and discern the difference between the mask and the real person. It's like watch for when the mask slips. That's the shorthand. I noticed that when you were telling me that last story, that you kind of your shoulders were kind of going up like this, as if there was something dangerous, or you were trying to protect yourself. Or after you told me that dream, you gave this really incredible sigh. What was the sigh about? Right? You're trying to look behind and around. What's being presented because that's where the real person is hiding. The micro moments. Yeah, and those have consistently proved to be the most valuable feedback. And the things that my clients will say, I can't believe you picked that up. You heard that in my voice that I didn't actually believe what I was saying? It's like, yes, you can hear that in someone's voice. Yeah. When they're just Prattling something because they think it's the right thing to say and it's hollow. And that's the kind of mirroring that's actually useful for the self. Now, the fact that so many young people are constantly trying to mirror themselves, think of the number of selfies that are taken and posted on the internet. This is overwhelming. my lord.
speaker-0: It's reinforcement of the masks over and over again.
speaker-1: The billions of dollars that are being poured into what they're now calling micro tweaks of the face. Like I would be ten percent more handsome if this eye were a little bit bigger, so I could get a little tuck or something here. So that the mask becomes the most important thing and your resources and psychic energy are all flowing into something which isn't real.
speaker-0: And if you have no time to have quiet self-reflection because you're so involved with social media, online presence, or just too busy to have a quiet moment alone, then there's no time that you're giving to your a authentic self to ev evolve or to be seen by you.
speaker-1: Yeah. And I think the real danger for young people is that their friendships are not developed enough to have gotten past the persona stage. Right? It in those youthful y yearnings to be accepted, everybody is putting on their best face. And so those friendships are very tenuous, right? And suddenly your best friend Isn't speaking to you and and you have no idea why. Right? This is the crisis of junior high. And it happens to everybody at some point in their career. That suddenly your best friend is no longer your best friend because some more stylish, clickish group picked them up and you're suddenly
speaker-0: you didn't You didn't have a foundation for the relationship in the first place it was solid because you were just discovering this this persona, this this projection. And so the personas related okay for a while, but once once there was something better.
speaker-1: And this this is why artificial intelligence and social media is so profoundly damaging and dangerous to young people. It's because it's all persona at this point. The self hasn't built up enough strength to be able to separate and make the distinction and say, okay, they didn't like my mask. That doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with me. If the mask is all there is, of course you're gonna take it personally. Right, so the huge rise in teenage suicide, which is just unbearably tragic, is addressing that issue that the self, the ego is still so entangled with the mask, but there isn't a difference. And so people stop liking you, stop watching your Instagram posts or whatever, and you're devastated.
speaker-0: You're perceiving it as social death. And because your brain doesn't differentiate between social death and real death, you find yourself
speaker-1: And there's no point to living. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. well and equally now l to to balance it, the rarity and exquisite beauty of friendships that are all about the real authentic self, who've already seen behind the mask, who've already dared to be vulnerable and allow you to be vulnerable and say, Wow, I I noticed when you said that that actually your mouth trembled. And I'm just wondering what other emotion is behind that. That's when real friendships start to grow because now you're both authenticating the real person behind the mask. And that's why those friendships endure throughout everything.
speaker-0: Yeah. It's like you're you're trying to perceive them more deeply and not to judge them or to determine that they're not that they're they're not a good person, but just to know them better. Mm-hmm. And that by that acceptance we start to feel close to people when we are vulnerability I mean vulnerability is the basis of connection. And
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: so when you're not ever showing a vulnerable side of yourself, you are unknown.
speaker-1: That's right. That's right. And if you listen to some of these confessions of former influencers, you can feel that specific pain coming through their words. Yeah. It's very harsh. It's very harsh. So what can we offer the young people as an alternative model instead of being an influencer, right? Because the bar seems to be getting so high on anything that looks like you might be able to make a living at it. Do
speaker-0: Right.
speaker-1: you see what I mean? absolutely. This is a really it's between the rock and the hard place. This is Silla and Charybdis all over.
speaker-0: let me throw myself into this because I have thought many times about like maybe I should be an influencer. That's what I should do. I feel an inherent sort of drive to be kind of a modern preacher without a church in a in a sense, because my my root tradition has no preachers. So it's like but I feel like I want to preach, you know? And I and I often feel like, when I get professorial, my friends think, you're you're you're you're you're brilliant, Andrew. I love hearing you talk. Like why don't you do that more? Why don't you get online? So I've Like, I should be an influencer. But of course I I can see what this brings, that that to be an influencer inherently the mask develops because I I can't be vulnerably me all the time on a social media platform because it will attract hatred and other things from people who don't know the depths of me.
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: I think a psychologist would say that those are bad boundaries. If you're letting everybody in to see your vulnerable self, you are inviting a lot of pain, a lot of discomfort. And I and I I'm like not sure that that's doable. I mean like I'm think sometimes I think, well, if I am completely vulnerable, that's like a great artist laying bare their chest to the world and that's that's what a poet does, that's what a great actor does you know this is what you do but something it tells tells me that that is just not true
speaker-1: But you can do it as long as you're doing it on stage or on film and you have a very good social media director who intercepts any incoming emails, phone calls, tweets, newspaper articles, and shreds the ones that are disrespectful. So that you're not suffering the onslaught of those who are envious and jealous and would love nothing better to pull down somebody who appears to be doing
speaker-0: I've been teaching a class on communication and I like to point out that to quit taking it personally because is any criticism of you personal? Hmm. When you really ask the question, it's like, well, anyone who knows me very well Would not would not shit on me verbally. They would give me constructive criticism with a lot of love. So if it's it's hatred, it's not from someone who knows me. And if they don't know me, then why are they hating me? Because they're projecting something. I mean it's that has to do with them more than it has anything to do with me. so that hatred is completely useless to me. That's their process, not mine. I don't need to deal with their hatred. Yep.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: And so then you're at a certain point you realize th n nothing is personal to get worked up about. It's all pretty impersonal.
speaker-1: And that I mean that's an important statement because what those influencers were hoping for was genuine connection and instead they're not getting anything authentic. They realize they're desperately hungry still and there's nothing they can eat. It doesn't matter that you had two thousand Facebook friends. There was nothing nurturing there.
speaker-0: Yeah, and the on the flip side of of negativity, I mean if people are worshipping you and you're thinking you're a god, like, I wish I could sleep with you it's like it's like what is that doing other than filling the self esteem bucket but but doing again damage to the real authentic self. Because it's false connection, it's false aggrandizement. It it's tempting for the hubris to build in you until you feel like I am a god I am a superhuman. Yes. And then
speaker-1: Right, because the inflation is all happening in the persona mask. There's no real growth in the authentic self. And yet it feels like you're getting bigger. Right. Right? Like, status is
speaker-0: Status is going up.
speaker-1: going up. I must be getting bigger and better and smarter. Yeah. It is
speaker-0: And it's an illusion.
speaker-1: all an illusion.
speaker-0: potentially a devastating illusion when it finally cracks.
speaker-1: Right, and we know how fickle the American public is. Right? I mean there there are stage plays and films and books about this. One day you're king of the castle and the next day you're scrubbing the toilets.
speaker-0: I love The Entertainer by Billy Joel, the song The Entertainer. I am the Entertainer, I know just where I stand, I know the serenator, and I know the long-haired band. Today I am your champion. Today I win your hearts. But I know the game, you'll forget my name, and I won't be here in another year if I don't stay on the charts.
speaker-1: Right. And that that final statement, if I don't stay on the charts, that's why so many influencers are quitting social media. It's because, the exhaustion of having to post three times a day or three times a week or three times an hour or whatever the new algorithm says you should do to get more followers, it's slavery. You've become a slave. to this mask that's going to eat you alive.
speaker-0: It's a trap. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: Yeah. There's also something in this. To be seen. Now I know that you pointed out the good part of this, the desire to be seen. But there's also a shadow side. Because a lot of what needs to happen in self-growth, in soul growth, has to take place in the dark, in private, inside the womb or the shell. Exposed to light, it evaporates, it dies, it dries out, it turns to dust. Right? This is one of the very important insights. This is this is a pearl of wisdom that people don't recognize until it's too late. Like you start sharing your good idea with everybody and it's as if the whole energy just went out of the balloon. It's not lifting you up anymore. It's like every person you told poked another hole in the hot air balloon and all the air has escaped and now you feel deflated and you don't really have any energy or enthusiasm for that idea that you thought was such a good idea. Because certain things are seeds and they need to be planted in the deep, in the ground, and just kept there until they're ready to open and grow in their own way, in their own time. And we don't give ourselves enough time or permission for the interior world to hold that space and that silence for genuine growth. people are just getting hollowed out. they're overexposed.
speaker-0: It's sort of this assembly line mentality of industrial work of just like get it done, make that monetary, turn it out. And that's what I I guess I fear all the time with my art is that if I treat my art like a job, I will begin to hate it. I will no longer enjoy creating art because I will feel like it's I'm cranking out product. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. This is reminding me of a f a a family story when my sister and I were performing together. The the Armstrong sisters out there performing with our guitars and banjos and fiddles and what have you. And every once in a while we would get a call from someone who wanted us to do a freebie. And the excuse was always, it would be such good exposure for you. There's gonna be so and so and so and so and all these people, da da da da. And my sister Jennifer recalls the day when Finally, I guess having lost patience with this, someone had called to ask us to do a freebie. It would be such a good exposure. And I said, you do realize that people die of exposure. I mean, I didn't realize the weight that that sentence carried. But of course Jennifer burst into great laughter. We thought it was hilarious. But but also something in me had recognized a deeper truth. You can die of exposure. And not just by being left out on a mountainside, but by simply giving yourself away too often and too freely.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Until there's nothing left to give. Yeah. Until you're dried out
speaker-1: Yeah, so there's a there's an important balance there.
speaker-0: would hear this idea that there's this dark, moist place that seeds need to germinate. It's like, that's a cool idea, but aren't convinced that that's real. if they haven't been exposed to that in a real way in their lives, it's like, well that that just sounds cute, but I don't I don't see why I need to care about having a quiet, dark, unseen part of me that has time to evolve.
speaker-1: Well, that's because the entire culture is so extroverted with so little patience for introverts that it really doesn't give you room and space to have the experience. The introverted experience of waiting patiently and slowly for something to grow of its own accord. Everything can be manufactured quickly. I mean, the poet Rainer Maria Rilke, my favorite poet. Took twenty years to finally get his best series of poems out. Twenty years he was gestating that poem. And he knew it. This is the beauty. He said, I am I am working on the inner architecture so that I will be fit to receive the poems that are coming to me. Now that's someone who understands the interiority of creativity. The you have to build the inner cathedral that will hold a poem of the magnitude of sonnets to Orpheus or the Duino elegies, the two most incredibly brilliant series of poems of the twentieth century, without a doubt.
speaker-0: Is so interesting. I remember I was writing a musical about Hell when I was in high school, and I was like, it's gonna be a great musical. And I I left it alone for a while. I didn't have enough skill, frankly, to write the whole thing But several years later, I started to study transformative and restorative justice, and suddenly it occurred to me that I was missing a huge opportunity for this hell vehicle to really explore the ethics and morality.
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: And I'm like, this is a brilliant potential for commentary on what's really going on philosophically much richer than anything I conceived of when I was a teenager. And I think about this in all sorts of ways. to compose great poetry takes living experiencing intense things before you have something worth expressing that is authentic from the heart. Yes. if you're a twenty year old looking to be an influencer, What do you have to share with other people who are older than you other than skillfully regurgitating the news? Right? Well, this is what was said very recently. It's like here's how energetic how
speaker-1: There's my opinion.
speaker-0: energetically I can say it. And don't I look hot and don't look sexy while I'm saying it? It's like yeah, you can do that. But have you cultivated anything within that's worth influencing people with?
speaker-1: and why should my opinion matter at all about current events? I'm not a politician, I'm not a diplomat,
speaker-0: This makes me think about like the Miss America pageants. what is your wish for the world? World peace. they're a t healthy, talented person, but they clearly haven't cultivated anything in the mental realm worth saying. Yeah. So it's really silly when they start talking when an a when an actor is suddenly put on the spot to say something about which they know very little, it is just
speaker-1: It's painful. Painful. And at some level you have to know that you are out of your depths. And for young influencers just feeling that their opinion is in and of itself enough to market them to the world, there will be a day of reckoning. Yeah. When they realize their opinions are basically worthless.
speaker-0: Worse than worshless because they get other people to come to conclusions that have not been thought through for themselves. The opinion economy, I think, is a very dangerous thing that we're dealing with right now. I love the moment from the Pixar movie Inside Out, where joy and sadness are on this train and the two boxes get knocked over opinions and facts. You're like, I'm always getting these things mixed up. It's like it's like just just throw back in either box, it doesn't matter. it's okay to state an opinion and not back it up and it that's what it is, but to hold that opinion too tightly or to try to influence others with that unexamined opinion it really could be doing damage. And we could be in a a world where the blind are leading the blind
speaker-1: So we started with our opinion about a fact that this poll shows that fifty seven percent of young people want to be influencers. And then we gave the immediate corrective, which if more than half the population are influencers, you can't make
speaker-0: Yeah, no other.
speaker-1: a career as an influencer 'cause Right. Yeah. So that in and of itself is useful. It should cut through the opinion I oughta be an influencer
speaker-0: when I think about being an influencer, I think about wanting to have a platform, of influence because it feels good the idea that I I would be leading some people. I don't know how many, but feels good that I would be in a position of leadership. Yes. that I I have grown into a man. I've grown into someone of stature or or power and that that's a good thing for my ego. But then the next thought that comes to me is I don't just want to be regurgitating ideas. I want to be vulnerable. I want to share something authentic of me with others. That that's actually maybe the most important part is to be seen for real. And in light of what we're talking about That seems almost alien in the conversation. It's like is this this the inkling of an artist? is this desire to to be really seen? Is it just I didn't get enough attention as a kid?
speaker-1: No, I think that it there's a certain point in everyone's life, especially a creative life, such as you have lived, where you become aware that there is an inner harvest ripening. It's th the woman who's nine months pregnant and recognizes, my goodness, the birth is coming. So then the need for the nest or the platform or whatever it is to receive this new thing that wants to come into the world is absolutely genuine. So the song that wanted to be heard, the song that needs to be written and sung into the world. that feel is so real. I've got to share this. This is important. This is this is all those Old Testament prophets. In spite of their better judgment and personalities, going, I have to say this. God wants me to tell you this. This is Martin Luther. You know, so help me God. I didn't wanna stand up here with the ninety five theses about what's wrong with Rome, but I'm gonna do it.
speaker-0: I'm guessing that the mixture of fear that I have around how I present myself and this opposite feeling of boldness of just I don't care how anyone perceives this. This has got to be authentic. It's got to be me completely chest laid bare. I'm guessing that this is about choosing the vessel or the baby crib, the platform with which I present what is coming through me. Because if I just vomit it out on social media, it's probably not gonna be well received. that's probably not the best place for something that's a deep cultivating wisdom or art or of something of value. It's gotta be where it's being born really.
speaker-1: the proper vessel into which to pour the new life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I hear what you're saying.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Because well, do not cast your pearls before swine.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: In many ways social media is the lowest common denominator. Yeah. So that's not where you want to put the finest wine. those are not the aficionados who will appreciate it. So it's a mark of distinction that you understand who your real audience ought to be. And you don't try to dumb yourself down to appeal to everyone.
speaker-0: isn't this applicable to all the other want-to-be influencers out there? Is that yes, you have something valuable that is cultivating within you to share with others, but don't assume it needs to be in this box of influencer who's talking to the media all the time. Right. There is something in you that is of value. Your voice is important to our society, but But keep listening, let it be growing in the dark for a while, and when it ripens, you'll know, you'll have a a strong feeling of where it should come out and where it should be born.
speaker-1: And the birth imagery I think is important because as someone who's given birth three times, I can tell you that when the birth is happening, there is not a shred of thought about what it looks like. You are so engaged in the process. How it looks is of absolutely no concern. Your only focus, a hundred and ten percent of you, is going into pushing the baby out into the world. The same should be true in the moment of creative artistic expression. When you are in touch, when the poem, the film, the book, the dance is happening, nothing else matters. It's only about you and the art. And frankly, it's nice if someone admires the baby. It is not necessary because you are in love with what you gave birth to. That's what matters.
speaker-0: And of course that's absurd because if more than half of the population is an influencer, who are you influencing other than yourself? Well
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: maybe one other person.
speaker-1: So already we've hit one of the great ironies that everybody wants to lead, nobody is there to follow. So it's an impossibility. It's like I want to be on top of the pyramid. Well, you can't, there isn't a pyramid if you don't have levels underneath you. But of course, what intrigues me is what is the psychological impetus to desire that. Right. Because that's shifted. I mean in previous generations people may have aspired to be a movie star and and why would an influencer now so rank so much higher? Good point. Isn't that interesting?
speaker-0: Maybe it's less work to be an influencer than a movie star.
speaker-1: I think that in fact they're borrowing from exactly the same archetype. And the reason that people say influencer is that influencer is is more up close and personal. They see it on every media platform. You don't have to buy a ticket and go to a theater to see a movie star. I mean, you do to see the movie star, but to see an influencer, you pick up any of your gadgets and you can find people who are. being influencers so they are now everywhere
speaker-0: And the more average Joe, the influencer, the more relatable too.
speaker-1: let's start close in with again the impetus to want to be an influencer. Because it apparently starts very young. Right? If you're asking preteens what do you want to be and they say an influencer, there's not even a thought in their head of what they might be an expert in. Right? So qualification has nothing to do with it. So knowing
speaker-0: Right.
speaker-1: that it's not what you're qualified to do, what you recognize you have a talent in, it's something that has been projected on the screen of the imagination as being desirable. And what exactly is it that's so desirable? And I think that you will immediately sense the reality of this when I say the desire to be an influencer is to have an audience. Yeah. That that's the nub of it. To be seen. Because an influencer without an audience cannot be an influencer. Influencer requires audience in order to be itself. So before you're an expert, before you have anything to say, you want an audience. But in fact, this has always been the case. And I would simply invite anybody, any listener, to throw their mind back to the last time you were with a group of children, and the number one phrase that comes out of their mouth is, look at me!
speaker-0: Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: So in child psychology, this is the development of the persona. It's an absolutely essential part of becoming a human being. The child requires the witness, requires the mirror, requires the audience, in order to get any sense of self. So you're developing the persona. Now I want people to grasp that word because that's really an important word: persona. It sounds like person, but it's not really about you. It's not a self. It's not a descriptor of the self. The persona comes from the Greek word for mask. The persona is your public mask. It's the face that you wear that other people will see. And so the reason that you do look at me, look at me is because you're testing whether your mask works. So to take it from the young child to the older child or young adult who wants to be an influencer, it's still about testing the mask. So it's about popularity. And we know that Homo sapiens are incredibly driven. status, popularity, belonging, these are absolutely critical for our survival, really. You know, I mean forget happiness, just to survive and feel like you ha have a place on the planet, you need a certain amount of feedback that says, I see you, you're okay, you belong, we'll accept you.
speaker-0: evolutionarily if we were ostracized from the group it would mean it would just certainly mean death. And so to be high on the totem pole to be considered with respect would mean that I'm safe, I'm secure within the group.
speaker-1: Yeah. And so the development of the mask, and you can see this in young children, it's so delightful because they'll try on multiple masks and in fact they'll realize that one mask doesn't work at all with dad, but it works well with mom. And you can actually see the f the facial features shift as they go from dad, who's just not gonna show them sympathy because they fell down and went boom. But they put on the face because mom will immediately do what they want. Right? I mean we can see this. Or a child in school. One thing just doesn't work with this teacher, but in another classroom with a different teacher, that face works beautifully. So there are some kids who will try on the the smart aleck or the kid who always acts out. But if it doesn't work They can morph, they can switch it around and and try to have a slightly different persona in this class if that's what will work. But here's the problem with personas is that we tend to get trapped behind the mask that works the best. Which is what family dynamics therapy is all about, right? That in every family the child has figured out what mask works in order to find your place in the family. And then you realize you can't get it off. You're always gonna be the problem child, or you're always the smart one, or you're always the nice one, and then you have to play into it year after year after year. And finally in your forties you go to therapy and the therapist helps you sort of pry it off like Right? Yeah. But to me this is the key thing. Yes, development of persona is good. And better to get it from a lot of people than just mom, dad, brother, sister, teacher. I mean if you can get a hundred people being your audience, then your mask experiment is so much fuller. You get so much more feedback, and if you get people to like you and subscribe, The masked persona is now safe. This is this is good. I am somebody because I have a mask that people like and accept. But the danger, and I'm sure you can see what's coming here, the danger is that the mask has never been yourself.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: So the more energy, the more libido you throw into the mask making, the less energy is available for actually discovering who am I behind the mask. And so that part of you begins to dwindle. It gets smaller. It it has no limelight. It doesn't know how to step into life or onto the stage. And so the persona, and I have to say, I know a lot about this. I'm a three on the Enneagram. The three is the performer. I grew up in a family of folk singers performing on stage. I was on stage by age seven, performing for. You know, hundreds of people. I know all about this dynamic, the mask versus the self. And it is very hard to take the mask off. Because you're stuck. It's like going back to to ground zero. Do I have a place? Will anybody see me? Will I be accepted? Will I belong? It's the same struggle all over again once you've put the mask down.
speaker-0: The great darkness is is that Trying to get your identity or ego needs met through the mask is a never-ending po pouring into a void. It's it's never going to make you feel seen because you're literally not showing yourself to anybody. You're taking the the non-vulnerable artificial self and and showing it, showing it, showing it. Right. And and all that can do is get you a little drips of self-esteem. It can never give you a full sense of ego of self. Correct. Of I am a a unique human being. being who is deserving of love and and worthy of being in my community.
speaker-1: Yeah, and in fact it almost works against it because you think people only love me for my mask if they knew who I really am, right?
speaker-0: Thanks.
speaker-1: So we know that being an influencer actually has been a career choice for hundreds, if not thousands, of people. But in the last couple of years, I've seen this myself on on YouTube. That people who were big influencers, ever since AI began to tweak the algorithms and it's harder to get in front of people, there have been now confessionals of influencers actually taking off the mask and saying, you know, to all my followers, here's why I'm not doing it anymore. Or to all my my followers. I'm sorry, but I I can't sustain it. I'm I've got to take a break. I'm out. It's too hard. This is crushing. So some people are beginning to hit the place where they realize the futility of what they've been trying to do and the neglect of the genuine self that's now crying out for real psychological attention. So we'll see whether enough of these confessions. can turn the tide or whether young people still see this as the most viable low bar entry to getting a self, getting heard. And in a sense, this is a shadow, an unanticipated shadow side of the whole internet craze. Because if you go back in human history and recognize that we all came out of tribal groups, community groups, that were f fairly small, right? Fifty to one hundred and fifty, that was the maximum. And even at a hundred and fifty, you recognize everybody.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: But when you are now in a global environment, there is no way that you are going to be known with the kind of depth and intimacy that Homo sapiens actually require for psychological development.
speaker-0: Yeah. And this this very basic impulse to feel like I am worthy, I am a valued member of the tribe, that's even harder to place because we're we're in careers now that are like you're disposable, everyone's replaceable now. if you're not cut pulling your weight with this, we'll find somebody else to do that job. And in a in a tribal society, that wouldn't be the case. Like you you would have been the one of the only people in the tribe trained to do that thing and you're like if it's not you it can't be somebody else. Like there'd be a little bit more of that sense of of uniqueness, a unique value within the tribe.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, the the original promise of the World Wide Web was that you would get to share your talents and share your ideas for very little money, right? You could anybody could start a website or a podcast and share their ideas. But of course the The counterbalance to that is yes, but now you're competing against all the other billions of people that are on the planet. Right. So the low bar entry doesn't really matter anymore. Because if it's low bar, it means everybody can jump in.
speaker-0: Right.
speaker-1: So the possibility of actually getting the kind of articulate personified feedback that would actually make a difference to you. Is very, very rare. I I I'm thinking now of that very dark cartoon of a funeral and a s a coffin and all of these chairs
speaker-0: And
speaker-1: one person.
speaker-0: he had two thousand Facebook friends. I expected a bigger turnout.
speaker-1: that's it. That's it in a nutshell. Two thousand members of an audience and one person, probably the mother, shows up to the funeral. Because these are not your real friends. This is not your real community. Every member of that audience probably said, like, like, like, subscribe, subscribe, subscribe to hundreds of others, right? It's all coming across their feet and they're just scrolling through. So there's no Real interaction. It's illusory in the most dangerous kind of way. influencer and audience, but you can feel that right there in that diet is the hunger for relationship.
speaker-0: Yeah. And and being known.
speaker-1: and being seen.
speaker-0: Yeah. And I almost think that that's more important. If I was to guess what's the real depth of this, it's that we need to see ourselves. Because you told me recently that you were that that you were looking through your your late husband's things. And as you were pawing through years of his history, you realized that even though you knew him best of anyone, that you still hardly knew him.
speaker-1: That's right. The unknowability of the depth of a human being. Yeah, it was pretty overwhelming that there was so much I did not know about this man that I had spent so many years living beside. But that's true for all of us, right? The depth of a single human being is a world. Right. It's a whole world. And it's not knowable by everyone, and certainly not by two thousand Facebook friends.
speaker-0: And I guess the question is, is it even knowable by ourselves? Can we even know the depths of what we are or who we are?
speaker-1: Hmm. Well, curiously, it seems that we need other human beings to help us see it. Because we always have the shadow, which we can't see. It's in the unconscious. And so the only way to bring it out is to have other people who are brave enough and kind enough to help us resurrect those parts of ourself that we've thrown over our shoulder because they didn't fit the mask that we were polishing up, right? I will tell you that one of the most valuable chapters in my training as a Jungian coach had to do with the coach's ability to look at the client you're working with and discern the difference between the mask and the real person. It's like watch for when the mask slips. That's the shorthand. I noticed that when you were telling me that last story, that you kind of your shoulders were kind of going up like this, as if there was something dangerous, or you were trying to protect yourself. Or after you told me that dream, you gave this really incredible sigh. What was the sigh about? Right? You're trying to look behind and around. What's being presented because that's where the real person is hiding. The micro moments. Yeah, and those have consistently proved to be the most valuable feedback. And the things that my clients will say, I can't believe you picked that up. You heard that in my voice that I didn't actually believe what I was saying? It's like, yes, you can hear that in someone's voice. Yeah. When they're just Prattling something because they think it's the right thing to say and it's hollow. And that's the kind of mirroring that's actually useful for the self. Now, the fact that so many young people are constantly trying to mirror themselves, think of the number of selfies that are taken and posted on the internet. This is overwhelming. my lord.
speaker-0: It's reinforcement of the masks over and over again.
speaker-1: The billions of dollars that are being poured into what they're now calling micro tweaks of the face. Like I would be ten percent more handsome if this eye were a little bit bigger, so I could get a little tuck or something here. So that the mask becomes the most important thing and your resources and psychic energy are all flowing into something which isn't real.
speaker-0: And if you have no time to have quiet self-reflection because you're so involved with social media, online presence, or just too busy to have a quiet moment alone, then there's no time that you're giving to your a authentic self to ev evolve or to be seen by you.
speaker-1: Yeah. And I think the real danger for young people is that their friendships are not developed enough to have gotten past the persona stage. Right? It in those youthful y yearnings to be accepted, everybody is putting on their best face. And so those friendships are very tenuous, right? And suddenly your best friend Isn't speaking to you and and you have no idea why. Right? This is the crisis of junior high. And it happens to everybody at some point in their career. That suddenly your best friend is no longer your best friend because some more stylish, clickish group picked them up and you're suddenly
speaker-0: you didn't You didn't have a foundation for the relationship in the first place it was solid because you were just discovering this this persona, this this projection. And so the personas related okay for a while, but once once there was something better.
speaker-1: And this this is why artificial intelligence and social media is so profoundly damaging and dangerous to young people. It's because it's all persona at this point. The self hasn't built up enough strength to be able to separate and make the distinction and say, okay, they didn't like my mask. That doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with me. If the mask is all there is, of course you're gonna take it personally. Right, so the huge rise in teenage suicide, which is just unbearably tragic, is addressing that issue that the self, the ego is still so entangled with the mask, but there isn't a difference. And so people stop liking you, stop watching your Instagram posts or whatever, and you're devastated.
speaker-0: You're perceiving it as social death. And because your brain doesn't differentiate between social death and real death, you find yourself
speaker-1: And there's no point to living. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. well and equally now l to to balance it, the rarity and exquisite beauty of friendships that are all about the real authentic self, who've already seen behind the mask, who've already dared to be vulnerable and allow you to be vulnerable and say, Wow, I I noticed when you said that that actually your mouth trembled. And I'm just wondering what other emotion is behind that. That's when real friendships start to grow because now you're both authenticating the real person behind the mask. And that's why those friendships endure throughout everything.
speaker-0: Yeah. It's like you're you're trying to perceive them more deeply and not to judge them or to determine that they're not that they're they're not a good person, but just to know them better. Mm-hmm. And that by that acceptance we start to feel close to people when we are vulnerability I mean vulnerability is the basis of connection. And
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: so when you're not ever showing a vulnerable side of yourself, you are unknown.
speaker-1: That's right. That's right. And if you listen to some of these confessions of former influencers, you can feel that specific pain coming through their words. Yeah. It's very harsh. It's very harsh. So what can we offer the young people as an alternative model instead of being an influencer, right? Because the bar seems to be getting so high on anything that looks like you might be able to make a living at it. Do
speaker-0: Right.
speaker-1: you see what I mean? absolutely. This is a really it's between the rock and the hard place. This is Silla and Charybdis all over.
speaker-0: let me throw myself into this because I have thought many times about like maybe I should be an influencer. That's what I should do. I feel an inherent sort of drive to be kind of a modern preacher without a church in a in a sense, because my my root tradition has no preachers. So it's like but I feel like I want to preach, you know? And I and I often feel like, when I get professorial, my friends think, you're you're you're you're you're brilliant, Andrew. I love hearing you talk. Like why don't you do that more? Why don't you get online? So I've Like, I should be an influencer. But of course I I can see what this brings, that that to be an influencer inherently the mask develops because I I can't be vulnerably me all the time on a social media platform because it will attract hatred and other things from people who don't know the depths of me.
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: I think a psychologist would say that those are bad boundaries. If you're letting everybody in to see your vulnerable self, you are inviting a lot of pain, a lot of discomfort. And I and I I'm like not sure that that's doable. I mean like I'm think sometimes I think, well, if I am completely vulnerable, that's like a great artist laying bare their chest to the world and that's that's what a poet does, that's what a great actor does you know this is what you do but something it tells tells me that that is just not true
speaker-1: But you can do it as long as you're doing it on stage or on film and you have a very good social media director who intercepts any incoming emails, phone calls, tweets, newspaper articles, and shreds the ones that are disrespectful. So that you're not suffering the onslaught of those who are envious and jealous and would love nothing better to pull down somebody who appears to be doing
speaker-0: I've been teaching a class on communication and I like to point out that to quit taking it personally because is any criticism of you personal? Hmm. When you really ask the question, it's like, well, anyone who knows me very well Would not would not shit on me verbally. They would give me constructive criticism with a lot of love. So if it's it's hatred, it's not from someone who knows me. And if they don't know me, then why are they hating me? Because they're projecting something. I mean it's that has to do with them more than it has anything to do with me. so that hatred is completely useless to me. That's their process, not mine. I don't need to deal with their hatred. Yep.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: And so then you're at a certain point you realize th n nothing is personal to get worked up about. It's all pretty impersonal.
speaker-1: And that I mean that's an important statement because what those influencers were hoping for was genuine connection and instead they're not getting anything authentic. They realize they're desperately hungry still and there's nothing they can eat. It doesn't matter that you had two thousand Facebook friends. There was nothing nurturing there.
speaker-0: Yeah, and the on the flip side of of negativity, I mean if people are worshipping you and you're thinking you're a god, like, I wish I could sleep with you it's like it's like what is that doing other than filling the self esteem bucket but but doing again damage to the real authentic self. Because it's false connection, it's false aggrandizement. It it's tempting for the hubris to build in you until you feel like I am a god I am a superhuman. Yes. And then
speaker-1: Right, because the inflation is all happening in the persona mask. There's no real growth in the authentic self. And yet it feels like you're getting bigger. Right. Right? Like, status is
speaker-0: Status is going up.
speaker-1: going up. I must be getting bigger and better and smarter. Yeah. It is
speaker-0: And it's an illusion.
speaker-1: all an illusion.
speaker-0: potentially a devastating illusion when it finally cracks.
speaker-1: Right, and we know how fickle the American public is. Right? I mean there there are stage plays and films and books about this. One day you're king of the castle and the next day you're scrubbing the toilets.
speaker-0: I love The Entertainer by Billy Joel, the song The Entertainer. I am the Entertainer, I know just where I stand, I know the serenator, and I know the long-haired band. Today I am your champion. Today I win your hearts. But I know the game, you'll forget my name, and I won't be here in another year if I don't stay on the charts.
speaker-1: Right. And that that final statement, if I don't stay on the charts, that's why so many influencers are quitting social media. It's because, the exhaustion of having to post three times a day or three times a week or three times an hour or whatever the new algorithm says you should do to get more followers, it's slavery. You've become a slave. to this mask that's going to eat you alive.
speaker-0: It's a trap. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: Yeah. There's also something in this. To be seen. Now I know that you pointed out the good part of this, the desire to be seen. But there's also a shadow side. Because a lot of what needs to happen in self-growth, in soul growth, has to take place in the dark, in private, inside the womb or the shell. Exposed to light, it evaporates, it dies, it dries out, it turns to dust. Right? This is one of the very important insights. This is this is a pearl of wisdom that people don't recognize until it's too late. Like you start sharing your good idea with everybody and it's as if the whole energy just went out of the balloon. It's not lifting you up anymore. It's like every person you told poked another hole in the hot air balloon and all the air has escaped and now you feel deflated and you don't really have any energy or enthusiasm for that idea that you thought was such a good idea. Because certain things are seeds and they need to be planted in the deep, in the ground, and just kept there until they're ready to open and grow in their own way, in their own time. And we don't give ourselves enough time or permission for the interior world to hold that space and that silence for genuine growth. people are just getting hollowed out. they're overexposed.
speaker-0: It's sort of this assembly line mentality of industrial work of just like get it done, make that monetary, turn it out. And that's what I I guess I fear all the time with my art is that if I treat my art like a job, I will begin to hate it. I will no longer enjoy creating art because I will feel like it's I'm cranking out product. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. This is reminding me of a f a a family story when my sister and I were performing together. The the Armstrong sisters out there performing with our guitars and banjos and fiddles and what have you. And every once in a while we would get a call from someone who wanted us to do a freebie. And the excuse was always, it would be such good exposure for you. There's gonna be so and so and so and so and all these people, da da da da. And my sister Jennifer recalls the day when Finally, I guess having lost patience with this, someone had called to ask us to do a freebie. It would be such a good exposure. And I said, you do realize that people die of exposure. I mean, I didn't realize the weight that that sentence carried. But of course Jennifer burst into great laughter. We thought it was hilarious. But but also something in me had recognized a deeper truth. You can die of exposure. And not just by being left out on a mountainside, but by simply giving yourself away too often and too freely.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Until there's nothing left to give. Yeah. Until you're dried out
speaker-1: Yeah, so there's a there's an important balance there.
speaker-0: would hear this idea that there's this dark, moist place that seeds need to germinate. It's like, that's a cool idea, but aren't convinced that that's real. if they haven't been exposed to that in a real way in their lives, it's like, well that that just sounds cute, but I don't I don't see why I need to care about having a quiet, dark, unseen part of me that has time to evolve.
speaker-1: Well, that's because the entire culture is so extroverted with so little patience for introverts that it really doesn't give you room and space to have the experience. The introverted experience of waiting patiently and slowly for something to grow of its own accord. Everything can be manufactured quickly. I mean, the poet Rainer Maria Rilke, my favorite poet. Took twenty years to finally get his best series of poems out. Twenty years he was gestating that poem. And he knew it. This is the beauty. He said, I am I am working on the inner architecture so that I will be fit to receive the poems that are coming to me. Now that's someone who understands the interiority of creativity. The you have to build the inner cathedral that will hold a poem of the magnitude of sonnets to Orpheus or the Duino elegies, the two most incredibly brilliant series of poems of the twentieth century, without a doubt.
speaker-0: Is so interesting. I remember I was writing a musical about Hell when I was in high school, and I was like, it's gonna be a great musical. And I I left it alone for a while. I didn't have enough skill, frankly, to write the whole thing But several years later, I started to study transformative and restorative justice, and suddenly it occurred to me that I was missing a huge opportunity for this hell vehicle to really explore the ethics and morality.
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: And I'm like, this is a brilliant potential for commentary on what's really going on philosophically much richer than anything I conceived of when I was a teenager. And I think about this in all sorts of ways. to compose great poetry takes living experiencing intense things before you have something worth expressing that is authentic from the heart. Yes. if you're a twenty year old looking to be an influencer, What do you have to share with other people who are older than you other than skillfully regurgitating the news? Right? Well, this is what was said very recently. It's like here's how energetic how
speaker-1: There's my opinion.
speaker-0: energetically I can say it. And don't I look hot and don't look sexy while I'm saying it? It's like yeah, you can do that. But have you cultivated anything within that's worth influencing people with?
speaker-1: and why should my opinion matter at all about current events? I'm not a politician, I'm not a diplomat,
speaker-0: This makes me think about like the Miss America pageants. what is your wish for the world? World peace. they're a t healthy, talented person, but they clearly haven't cultivated anything in the mental realm worth saying. Yeah. So it's really silly when they start talking when an a when an actor is suddenly put on the spot to say something about which they know very little, it is just
speaker-1: It's painful. Painful. And at some level you have to know that you are out of your depths. And for young influencers just feeling that their opinion is in and of itself enough to market them to the world, there will be a day of reckoning. Yeah. When they realize their opinions are basically worthless.
speaker-0: Worse than worshless because they get other people to come to conclusions that have not been thought through for themselves. The opinion economy, I think, is a very dangerous thing that we're dealing with right now. I love the moment from the Pixar movie Inside Out, where joy and sadness are on this train and the two boxes get knocked over opinions and facts. You're like, I'm always getting these things mixed up. It's like it's like just just throw back in either box, it doesn't matter. it's okay to state an opinion and not back it up and it that's what it is, but to hold that opinion too tightly or to try to influence others with that unexamined opinion it really could be doing damage. And we could be in a a world where the blind are leading the blind
speaker-1: So we started with our opinion about a fact that this poll shows that fifty seven percent of young people want to be influencers. And then we gave the immediate corrective, which if more than half the population are influencers, you can't make
speaker-0: Yeah, no other.
speaker-1: a career as an influencer 'cause Right. Yeah. So that in and of itself is useful. It should cut through the opinion I oughta be an influencer
speaker-0: when I think about being an influencer, I think about wanting to have a platform, of influence because it feels good the idea that I I would be leading some people. I don't know how many, but feels good that I would be in a position of leadership. Yes. that I I have grown into a man. I've grown into someone of stature or or power and that that's a good thing for my ego. But then the next thought that comes to me is I don't just want to be regurgitating ideas. I want to be vulnerable. I want to share something authentic of me with others. That that's actually maybe the most important part is to be seen for real. And in light of what we're talking about That seems almost alien in the conversation. It's like is this this the inkling of an artist? is this desire to to be really seen? Is it just I didn't get enough attention as a kid?
speaker-1: No, I think that it there's a certain point in everyone's life, especially a creative life, such as you have lived, where you become aware that there is an inner harvest ripening. It's th the woman who's nine months pregnant and recognizes, my goodness, the birth is coming. So then the need for the nest or the platform or whatever it is to receive this new thing that wants to come into the world is absolutely genuine. So the song that wanted to be heard, the song that needs to be written and sung into the world. that feel is so real. I've got to share this. This is important. This is this is all those Old Testament prophets. In spite of their better judgment and personalities, going, I have to say this. God wants me to tell you this. This is Martin Luther. You know, so help me God. I didn't wanna stand up here with the ninety five theses about what's wrong with Rome, but I'm gonna do it.
speaker-0: I'm guessing that the mixture of fear that I have around how I present myself and this opposite feeling of boldness of just I don't care how anyone perceives this. This has got to be authentic. It's got to be me completely chest laid bare. I'm guessing that this is about choosing the vessel or the baby crib, the platform with which I present what is coming through me. Because if I just vomit it out on social media, it's probably not gonna be well received. that's probably not the best place for something that's a deep cultivating wisdom or art or of something of value. It's gotta be where it's being born really.
speaker-1: the proper vessel into which to pour the new life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I hear what you're saying.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Because well, do not cast your pearls before swine.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: In many ways social media is the lowest common denominator. Yeah. So that's not where you want to put the finest wine. those are not the aficionados who will appreciate it. So it's a mark of distinction that you understand who your real audience ought to be. And you don't try to dumb yourself down to appeal to everyone.
speaker-0: isn't this applicable to all the other want-to-be influencers out there? Is that yes, you have something valuable that is cultivating within you to share with others, but don't assume it needs to be in this box of influencer who's talking to the media all the time. Right. There is something in you that is of value. Your voice is important to our society, but But keep listening, let it be growing in the dark for a while, and when it ripens, you'll know, you'll have a a strong feeling of where it should come out and where it should be born.
speaker-1: And the birth imagery I think is important because as someone who's given birth three times, I can tell you that when the birth is happening, there is not a shred of thought about what it looks like. You are so engaged in the process. How it looks is of absolutely no concern. Your only focus, a hundred and ten percent of you, is going into pushing the baby out into the world. The same should be true in the moment of creative artistic expression. When you are in touch, when the poem, the film, the book, the dance is happening, nothing else matters. It's only about you and the art. And frankly, it's nice if someone admires the baby. It is not necessary because you are in love with what you gave birth to. That's what matters.
