394 - The Self-Made Web Designer is Back with Chris Misterek

WEBVTT
00:00:00.059 --> 00:00:05.807
client coming to you and saying I really want my site to be built on this and you being like well, I've never done that before, but let's try it.
00:00:05.807 --> 00:00:09.602
It's like it's going to take you so much time to learn the platform.
00:00:09.602 --> 00:00:12.569
Your profit margin is going to be abysmal.
00:00:12.569 --> 00:00:20.025
You know, like you kind of, you kind of need to put your stake in the ground for a period of time.
00:00:20.025 --> 00:00:31.088
You don't have to stay there forever if you don't like it, but you should at least to commit to a handful of projects before you say, okay, yes, this is what I want to do, or I don't want to do.
00:00:34.220 --> 00:00:42.932
Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast, with your host, josh Hall, helping you build a web design business that gives you freedom and a lifestyle you love.
00:00:42.932 --> 00:00:54.468
Hello, my friend, it's so good to have you here and I am so excited to share with you my conversation with repeat guest friend of the show, chris Mistrick.
00:00:54.468 --> 00:01:00.847
He is the guy behind one of the best brand names in web design, the self-made web designer.
00:01:00.847 --> 00:01:03.621
Darn him for naming that so good.
00:01:03.621 --> 00:01:05.347
A little jealous, a little jealous.
00:01:05.347 --> 00:01:07.302
Great brand, great guy.
00:01:07.302 --> 00:01:11.290
And we are having just a very casual catch up in this one.
00:01:11.290 --> 00:01:26.932
But we do talk about some things that I think are really going to help you, whether you are in the beginning of your business or whether you're more advanced and established and want to get a feel for where things are in the view from the lens of two people who have been in the industry for a while, which Chris and I have.
00:01:26.932 --> 00:01:46.707
We're getting into everything from where the industry is today, with AI and everything else that's going on, what's different about getting started now versus when we got into the industry, and how more important than ever it is to stick to your tools and beware the shiny object syndrome.
00:01:46.707 --> 00:01:48.852
So, with all that as a primer.
00:01:48.852 --> 00:01:51.989
I'll leave it at that and I'm going to welcome in our good friend, chris Mystrick.
00:01:51.989 --> 00:01:53.965
Uh, he did have some technical issues.
00:01:54.025 --> 00:02:05.628
Heads up, if you watch this version on YouTube, you will see a camera change and either a freeze frame or a um a picture of Chris over that segment, depending on what me and my Nathan editor decided to do on that.
00:02:05.628 --> 00:02:06.805
So just a heads up on that.
00:02:06.805 --> 00:02:11.931
Go to the show notes of this episode, joshhallco, slash 394, for all the links we mentioned.
00:02:11.931 --> 00:02:17.304
And since you're on the podcast, be sure to go check out Chris's podcast Self-Made Web Designer.
00:02:17.304 --> 00:02:17.967
It's a good one.
00:02:17.967 --> 00:02:18.549
Here's Chris.
00:02:18.549 --> 00:02:28.189
Hello, banter, how long has it been for real, was it?
00:02:28.730 --> 00:02:39.920
it's been a couple years, right, I think it was 2022 and so it's 2025 now, so maybe about three years or so, wow well, man, it's so good to see you again.
00:02:39.961 --> 00:02:42.044
Dude, how, how are things?
00:02:42.044 --> 00:02:42.145
I?
00:02:42.145 --> 00:02:49.004
It looked like life had taken a lot of different turns over the past few years since we chatted last.
00:02:49.526 --> 00:02:50.127
Absolutely.
00:02:50.127 --> 00:02:51.471
Yeah, no, things are.
00:02:51.471 --> 00:02:52.881
Things are really good, man.
00:02:52.881 --> 00:02:57.054
I um still add show it, still doing web design stuff.
00:02:57.054 --> 00:03:06.153
Just recently started self-made web designer back up again and uh, yeah, other than that, I have a senior in high school which is nuts.
00:03:06.153 --> 00:03:10.176
I don't know how that's even possible, but here we are.
00:03:10.497 --> 00:03:12.084
Yeah, cause you're only 26.
00:03:12.485 --> 00:03:13.870
Yeah, exactly yeah.
00:03:13.870 --> 00:03:18.431
So um had her when I was like 11, so all good.
00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:22.444
So wild man Gosh, chris, that's crazy.
00:03:22.444 --> 00:03:24.987
Well, I'm pumped to reconnect with you here.
00:03:24.987 --> 00:03:28.109
Man Just wanted to kind of get the lay of the land on where you're at.
00:03:28.109 --> 00:03:39.108
I mean, I just I have to say damn you, chris, for stealing the best freaking podcast name, like I remember when I saw your stuff I was like dang it.
00:03:39.108 --> 00:03:44.949
That is what I wanted to call my podcast that's so much better than mine, wow.
00:03:45.229 --> 00:03:45.871
Thank you, man.
00:03:45.871 --> 00:03:49.167
It's such a good brand, I'm so glad you're back.
00:03:49.227 --> 00:03:51.473
man, the self-made web designer, is back.
00:03:53.242 --> 00:03:53.683
Yeah yeah.
00:03:53.683 --> 00:04:17.916
It was quite a long hiatus I think it was two years in total, had a whole bunch of stuff happen and my family, my dad, passed away and just got kind of overwhelmed and burnt out and so just took some time off to kind of get healthy and emotionally, physically all that stuff focus on my family and then slowly but surely, like I, actually found a love for writing again.
00:04:19.023 --> 00:04:21.233
And you came back with your newsletter first right.
00:04:21.375 --> 00:04:22.259
Yeah, yeah.
00:04:22.259 --> 00:04:30.045
So I started writing and blogging and you know, like I was like, well, I'm, I'm doing this.
00:04:30.045 --> 00:04:34.963
I might as well, you know, make podcast scripts or the YouTube channel or whatever.
00:04:34.963 --> 00:04:39.291
And so, yeah, I just kind of slowly progressed into that.
00:04:39.291 --> 00:04:49.670
And then, um, started YouTube back up this year and then had a go, a couple of videos go off pretty well, and so now I'm just like, okay, well, how do we keep this going?
00:04:49.709 --> 00:04:52.603
I guess, yeah, cause you're such a video guy.
00:04:52.603 --> 00:05:12.785
I remember you know, really looking up to you with your video when we first got connected I was like man, it's obvious you had a background in video production and audio and sound and stuff I actually didn't know you were as heavy into or maybe, I don't know, was writing kind of secondary and then, like you said, was it just a chance to get into it?
00:05:12.785 --> 00:05:16.699
That was a little more low barrier, less production, less everything.
00:05:17.740 --> 00:05:33.230
Yeah, I read a book from a gal named Anne Lamont called Bird by Bird, and it's a funny name, but she is essentially a writing teacher, so she teaches people how to write.
00:05:33.230 --> 00:05:41.651
She's done a few creative novels, but really the majority of her work has been around how to write.
00:05:41.651 --> 00:05:54.911
And it was just super inspiring and I was like you know what, I think I want to do this, and so just started sitting down at a computer and just found a knack for like busting out a thousand words in like 30 minutes, you know.
00:05:54.911 --> 00:05:57.204
And so I was like, well, I think I can do this like every day.
00:05:57.204 --> 00:06:00.872
And so then I just started doing that every day.
00:06:00.872 --> 00:06:05.629
It became a pattern and so, yeah, and so then that just kind of catapulted from there.
00:06:06.149 --> 00:06:06.329
Was.
00:06:06.329 --> 00:06:07.834
Was the initial writing for you?
00:06:07.834 --> 00:06:12.622
Was it more like journaling, especially since you had gone through so much in the period of a couple of years?
00:06:12.622 --> 00:06:16.069
Or was it intentional to like web designers, or how?
00:06:16.069 --> 00:06:17.012
How did the writing start?
00:06:17.540 --> 00:06:18.622
Yeah, it was all about.
00:06:18.622 --> 00:06:29.901
It was all about web design, but my style is much more like okay, here's my story.
00:06:29.901 --> 00:06:33.740
And here's the thing that I learned through this story as it relates to web design, because what I do is show it is still web design stuff.
00:06:33.740 --> 00:06:47.045
I'm helping web designers that use our platform, and so it was just like, all right, well, I need to produce content for these guys, so I'm going to blog, I'm going to write a newsletter for them.
00:06:47.045 --> 00:07:12.062
And then I was like, well, I've, I've got more words that I could be writing, and so why don't I just do self-made web designer newsletter and then why don't I blog if I've got all these words that I'm writing every week, you know so, so, yeah, so it was kind of a progressive thing, but it was always, like you know, heavy web design stuff well, it's interesting because I remember, I think you, just because I was on your, I'm still am on your newsletter.
00:07:12.163 --> 00:07:29.168
I do know one thing about you, chris, is that I know when you email, it's going to be heartfelt, it's not going to be a rushed crap, like just stay on schedule type thing, which, yeah, is a good remind, like a good like, yeah, it's a good reminder that you like, uh, what's the right term?
00:07:29.350 --> 00:07:32.879
care trumps consistency maybe I don't know.
00:07:32.918 --> 00:07:38.031
Like you know, I mean like I'd rather get less emails from you, but ones that are like he puts them hard into this.
00:07:38.031 --> 00:07:44.182
Sure, you know, as much as I stick on schedule with stuff, there's sometimes where I'm like maybe I want to start doing less just better.
00:07:44.444 --> 00:07:46.026
Yeah, I, I appreciate that.
00:07:46.026 --> 00:07:55.293
Yeah, I, I intentionally try, you know like I don't like, because you could find web design advice from a number of people you know, like either of us.
00:07:55.293 --> 00:08:03.685
You could be getting solid web design advice to build a solid web design business or from chat gpt now yeah, 100, and there are.
00:08:04.026 --> 00:08:10.250
There's more and more people because of these great tools that we have at our fingertips that are just creating tons of content.
00:08:10.250 --> 00:08:13.228
But you know nobody can steal your story.
00:08:13.228 --> 00:08:27.264
You know nobody can steal the part of your business that makes you uniquely you and so, like that's one of the core competencies that I think a lot of web designers miss out on is like they.
00:08:27.264 --> 00:08:49.322
They try to create an image of what they think their clients want and in doing so, they leave out a piece of themselves and therefore it takes out that real core competency and it pulls the heart out of their business competency and it pulls the heart out of their business.
00:08:49.342 --> 00:09:02.522
Did it make it easier to rebound from burnout and everything that you went through with just the idea that it is more of like a story based like heartfelt kind of thing, versus like, okay, here's my revenue target, here's my action plan?
00:09:02.522 --> 00:09:07.413
Did it make it easier to get back into it, knowing like you just share what you're thinking, what you're feeling?
00:09:07.740 --> 00:09:08.923
Yeah, you know, it's always.
00:09:08.923 --> 00:09:16.283
It's always a moving landscape for me when it comes to, like, what are my goals with this thing?
00:09:16.283 --> 00:09:34.687
Cause I I have the luxury of having a really nice full-time job, you know, that pays my bills, and then some takes care of me and my family, um, and so there is a little bit of like, well, if I'm going to be spending extra time on this, it needs it needs to be justified by providing for my family.
00:09:34.687 --> 00:09:45.881
You know, um, at the same time, like, a lot of the reason why it was it was hard for me, you know, back when I first started, was because it did feel like such a content machine.
00:09:45.881 --> 00:09:49.171
You know, it's just like, got to turn it out, got to put it out there.
00:09:49.171 --> 00:09:58.110
You know what's going to get the most clicks, what's going to get the most reads, what's going to get the most views versus like, hey, let's just be a real person.
00:09:58.110 --> 00:10:05.989
You know, and then you know, whatever happens happens because I, you know, don't need this.
00:10:05.989 --> 00:10:11.634
You know, and it's a reminder that I keep having to bring up to myself because inevitably it's so easy.
00:10:11.855 --> 00:10:29.332
You know, vanity metrics of, like, how many views am I getting, how many people are following me on social media when I think the more important thing and what I have to keep bringing myself back to is, like what's the end goal, like what's the real purpose of this?
00:10:29.332 --> 00:10:37.173
And my wife and I are always having this conversation and for me, at the end of it all is like I just want to help people.
00:10:37.173 --> 00:10:50.094
You know, like whatever that looks like like to be an encouragement to help you build your business, to know a little bit more about web design, and so if that's all the goal is then mission accomplished.
00:10:50.094 --> 00:10:50.774
You know what I mean.
00:10:50.774 --> 00:10:57.340
Like we've created, you know, like all this stuff that is super helpful and I've gotten feedback.
00:10:57.340 --> 00:11:00.466
You know like, hey, this has really helped me and so it's like okay.
00:11:00.466 --> 00:11:04.826
Like so that big purpose is now taken care of.
00:11:04.826 --> 00:11:05.828
Now I can just have fun.
00:11:05.828 --> 00:11:11.706
You know, now I can just figure out ways to be creative, express myself, help people maybe a little bit more.
00:11:11.947 --> 00:11:13.739
You know that's a really good point.
00:11:13.739 --> 00:11:27.205
I feel like if you, if you have a, if you don't have a measurable goal, there's no sense in looking at measurable results in the form of vanity metrics or sales, because that's not the goal.
00:11:27.205 --> 00:11:35.988
Now, if you actually get to the point where you have a goal or maybe there's parts of, maybe that's the broader mission, but then there's goals within the mission, that's when I feel like it's worthwhile doing that.
00:11:35.988 --> 00:11:48.268
But I do like that idea just because I feel like, yeah, for you, there's no sense of looking at vanity metrics or number of students or number of downloads when none of that is a goal, like you're just if you want to help people.
00:11:48.268 --> 00:11:50.782
So technically, one person, you've won.
00:11:50.782 --> 00:11:51.923
That's the success.
00:11:51.943 --> 00:11:56.884
A hundred percent, yeah, and you know again, like it's, it's a moving target.
00:11:56.884 --> 00:12:23.375
It's super easy to get sucked into like feeling like you're not performing well enough or you're not as good as all the other people who are also doing the same thing, or whatever, when in reality it's like you kind of have to take a step back from that and say, okay, at the end of the day, if I look back 10 years from now and try to measure my success, it's probably not going to be from the amount of money I made.
00:12:23.375 --> 00:12:25.019
It's going to be from the amount of money I made.
00:12:25.019 --> 00:12:34.770
It's going to be on the impact that I had on somebody's life, you know, and so, um, so that's kind of the North star for me, and and it's and it's tough to do marketing for that, you know.
00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:42.589
And and to be fair, like I'm a competitive person, Like I want to, I want to be the best in whatever the thing is that I'm doing.
00:12:42.589 --> 00:12:43.149
It's not like.
00:12:43.149 --> 00:12:46.815
It's like, well, we'll just put out whatever and see if, if, if, see if it lands somewhere.
00:12:46.815 --> 00:12:49.163
It's like no, I want to be intentional about what I'm doing.
00:12:49.163 --> 00:12:54.922
You know, I just don't want that to be an all consuming goal that takes up tons of my brain space.
00:12:55.562 --> 00:13:03.753
Well, I mean, I'm so glad you mentioned your full-time role with show it, because the reality is you do have constraints unless you want to work 90 hours a week.
00:13:04.394 --> 00:13:24.307
So I and I, my gosh man, I have found this to be more and more of not an issue but just a reminder to people who are building web design businesses on the side or, like I have a lot of web designer pro members who are mompreneurs and they're balancing having young kids or even teenagers, and they just they can only work about 15 or 20 hours a week.
00:13:24.307 --> 00:13:36.649
And I just, at this time of recording this, just did a mid-year check-in with everybody and it's interesting how many conversations I've had with folks who are in a part-time position, like you are, with their web design business.
00:13:36.649 --> 00:13:44.208
But it's really easy to judge their success off of people who are beyond full-time in their roles and you just cannot, you just can't do it Like.
00:13:44.208 --> 00:13:54.138
I love this reminder that if you're working 15 or 20 hours a week and you're making 50 or 60 grand and that's fine for you and your family, you've won, like you don't need to.
00:13:54.198 --> 00:14:10.875
I mean, if you want to go to six figures, awesome, we can get there without going too much more than you know you could probably get there with a few tweaks without working more, but you don't need to if you don't need to, so yeah, I just I think, now more than ever, I think that's, uh, it's worth like banging that drum.
00:14:10.875 --> 00:14:20.855
Uh, that you yeah, there's no sense of like stacking ourself and comparing ourselves and people who are in literal different positions and have different variables and have different working hours.
00:14:20.855 --> 00:14:38.272
And yeah, like I know I have to personally be careful about looking at like other influencers and folks who are, who don't have families, and it's like, well, yeah, you can travel a lot and do a lot of speaking and conferences and crank out more content, because you don't have any kids to worry about taking up your time, you know.
00:14:38.292 --> 00:14:40.663
And I don't mean like that, but I just mean, yeah, you know what I mean.
00:14:40.663 --> 00:14:41.845
Comparison is a dangerous game.
00:14:41.845 --> 00:14:42.466
Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean.
00:14:42.466 --> 00:14:43.629
Comparison is a dangerous game.
00:14:43.629 --> 00:14:46.693
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's kind of two sided, you know, like you don't.
00:14:46.693 --> 00:14:54.854
You don't want to stick your head in the sand, um, at the same time, you don't want to use false measurement criteria, you know, like.
00:14:54.854 --> 00:15:01.131
So, like you know, I tell you Roosevelt, god bless him, comparison is the thief of joy.
00:15:01.131 --> 00:15:02.481
I think comparison helps.
00:15:02.481 --> 00:15:05.528
You know when you should audition for American Idol and when you shouldn't.
00:15:05.707 --> 00:15:11.063
And some people don't have that tool, like they're just like no, I'm the, I'm the best there is.
00:15:11.063 --> 00:15:13.171
Like, actually, you shouldn't even be on the stage.
00:15:13.171 --> 00:15:22.528
But at the same time, like you know you, you have to compare the right things to the right things, and the best thing to compare is yourself now versus a year ago.
00:15:22.528 --> 00:15:36.543
And so if you can look back and say, like I did X projects, I made X amount of money, then like, there's probably something, there's something to celebrate in that you know.
00:15:36.543 --> 00:15:58.745
And so, learning, learning what the wins are, and and I even have to, like you know, have a list of like, like here, here are some wins that like, even though they're not the big things you know like, maybe it's not I made a hundred thousand dollars, maybe a client said they had one of the best experiences working with a web designer when they worked with me.
00:15:59.187 --> 00:16:11.442
Um, you know, for for me it's the comments I get on my videos, where, even if the video only gets, you know, a certain amount of views, somebody says, hey, I was about to give up, but this video just gave me a lot of ideas to keep going.
00:16:11.442 --> 00:16:12.947
It's like that's gold to me.
00:16:12.947 --> 00:16:15.373
That is, that is a measurement of like.
00:16:15.373 --> 00:16:19.191
The more I hear that, the more I'm like I am on the right track.
00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:24.504
So when to compare, that's a good, it's a good topic.
00:16:24.504 --> 00:16:30.672
Like you, compare yourself to your former self, your progress, absolutely, I do think it's worthwhile.
00:16:30.672 --> 00:16:45.081
Comparing is in more of like market research for positioning competition.
00:16:45.081 --> 00:16:56.240
If somebody wants to teach web designers, it would be worthwhile comparing your you know your skill sets and where you are compared to me and compared to you and compared to agency Mavericks, compared to all the other folks who are teaching web designers in some capacity.
00:16:56.282 --> 00:17:31.830
So there I I agree there's like there is a time to compare, but I think it's um, I think it's really important not to like almost judge yourself in comparison, especially when there's a very, very different set of circumstances time goals, 100, etc yeah, and I think too, it it comes down to the comparison is not an evaluation of your worth as a person, and so, like, that's where it starts to get really tough when you're like this person is better than me, so I must be, I must be a worse person.
00:17:31.830 --> 00:17:38.593
You know, um, or I'm not as valued, or maybe I'm not as spectacular, right, like that's.
00:17:38.593 --> 00:17:47.011
That's where you can get, you know, really really burnt out from you know this person is better.
00:17:47.011 --> 00:18:05.820
Therefore, I am a worse human being, you know, like, but if you, just if you kind of have to put your thinker hat on and and and put your feelings to the side and say, no, this, these, these are just data points that's going to help me make a decision about where to focus my skills next, and so some of the things.
00:18:05.882 --> 00:18:06.846
It's like you know.
00:18:06.846 --> 00:18:12.575
Like you know, especially for me, when I was thinking about the early days of starting courses, I looked at all your courses.
00:18:12.575 --> 00:18:14.561
Like Josh has all these courses and they're fantastic.
00:18:14.561 --> 00:18:16.345
He's not talking about Upwork.
00:18:16.345 --> 00:18:37.483
I have a particular expertise in the field of Upwork and so that's the course that I'm going to make you know, because I have something that's pretty unique to talk about it specifically to web designers, so that kind of helps you figure out like what's my secret sauce or the value proposition, my onlyness that I can say?
00:18:37.483 --> 00:18:49.767
Only I have this ability or experience, expertise, whatever you want to call it, and so this makes me a much better fit for these types of people.
00:18:51.109 --> 00:18:58.333
Such a good point, especially, I think, for web designers who are focused on local, whether it's local SEO or their local market.
00:18:58.333 --> 00:19:07.753
It's very, very worthwhile taking this approach of like looking at your competition and viewing them as number one coopetition, like we can be friends.
00:19:07.753 --> 00:19:10.567
We don't need to be enemies, I don't need to steal clients from you and vice versa.
00:19:10.567 --> 00:19:13.327
But then, like you said, what is what's different about you?
00:19:13.327 --> 00:19:27.044
And this is where I see a lot of designers look around at other designers and then all of a sudden, they're like oh my God, I'm not near as good as this person, whether they're local or global, whatever it really like, it is worthwhile.
00:19:27.044 --> 00:19:34.730
Even though you may have overlap in services and stuff like that, there's always a unique selling proposition.
00:19:34.730 --> 00:19:45.705
There's always something unique about you and it may be a personal thing, maybe, just maybe some clients just want to work with you because you're you and you have the exact same services as this big agency in town, but they're not you.
00:19:46.641 --> 00:19:52.950
Going back to your story, your story attracts, if there's anything that attracts your tribe your vibe attracts your tribe.
00:19:52.950 --> 00:19:55.626
It's a story, it's how you present yourself.
00:19:55.626 --> 00:20:01.900
I just had a call with one of my pro members, whitney, who has a podcast herself and she's very established.
00:20:01.900 --> 00:20:09.428
And I asked her point blank what was it about me that attracted you versus going to Agency Mavericks or somebody else?
00:20:09.428 --> 00:20:13.061
And she said it're just your style, like.
00:20:13.061 --> 00:20:17.645
You just seem like a stable, balanced entrepreneur and she wanted a little more of like.
00:20:17.645 --> 00:20:19.526
She didn't want to hustle, she wanted more of that.
00:20:19.526 --> 00:20:26.886
So I'm I realized like, yeah, I mean I have the best in certain areas, but yeah, it's like your, your vibe truly does attract your tribe.
00:20:26.886 --> 00:20:29.987
I saw you went side camera.
00:20:30.789 --> 00:20:32.787
I know it's my computer.
00:20:32.787 --> 00:20:36.391
It's not letting me switch in between, so let me see oh, that's all right.
00:20:36.940 --> 00:20:38.365
Yeah, sometimes a Riverside.
00:20:38.365 --> 00:20:41.148
I guess it's like every streaming platform.
00:20:41.148 --> 00:20:46.070
Sometimes it goes well, but hey, you look fine.
00:20:46.781 --> 00:20:47.464
We can see your stash.
00:20:47.484 --> 00:20:49.392
That's the most important yeah, yeah, well, but hey, you look fine.
00:20:49.412 --> 00:20:50.997
Fine to me, we can see your stash.
00:20:50.997 --> 00:20:51.740
That's the most important.
00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:56.415
Yeah, yeah, okay, cool yeah, I was joking before we hit record, like if something happens you will make a hell of a cop.
00:20:56.415 --> 00:20:57.019
Just keep the stash ready.
00:20:57.038 --> 00:21:03.907
Plan B yeah, I, I, I fear I would be like, you know, too lenient, you know, pull people over cause they're speeding.
00:21:03.907 --> 00:21:06.270
You know I'm like, ah, you know, it's fine, We'll, we'll figure it out.
00:21:06.310 --> 00:21:06.691
Just don't.
00:21:06.691 --> 00:21:07.692
Don't do it again.
00:21:07.692 --> 00:21:10.435
You would be the worst cop, Chris, Cause you'd be like I just want to help you.
00:21:10.579 --> 00:21:11.604
I don't want to give you a ticket.
00:21:11.624 --> 00:21:15.328
They'd be like Chris literally he was going 95 and a 35.
00:21:15.328 --> 00:21:16.250
You have to give a ticket.
00:21:18.019 --> 00:21:22.051
Yeah, you know in in talking about like competition.
00:21:22.051 --> 00:21:28.109
So what I do for show it is I actually help our designers that use the show at platform.
00:21:28.109 --> 00:21:30.795
So we've got a really big circle community.
00:21:30.795 --> 00:21:35.631
We also have a core group of designers we call the design partners.
00:21:35.631 --> 00:21:37.605
So there are people who have been vetted by us.
00:21:37.605 --> 00:21:41.240
They've been through the process of taking some of our courses.
00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:52.750
We've gotten client feedback about them, and so we actually take them on retreats a few times a year up to a cabin that the CEO owns.
00:21:52.750 --> 00:21:53.984
I'm actually there right now.
00:21:54.540 --> 00:21:57.349
So I'm going to say it looked like you were in like a lake house or something.
00:21:57.390 --> 00:22:06.887
Yeah, so and they just get together and they just share and they're like hey, here's where it's working well for me, or just what's maybe a little bit too difficult.
00:22:06.887 --> 00:22:10.469
Right now we do some workshops on like show it stuff.
00:22:10.469 --> 00:22:20.847
I'll do a presentation, the CEO does a presentation, but it's amazing to see the people who come, who kind of hold things close to their chest.
00:22:20.847 --> 00:22:38.761
You know they're like I don't want to give away my secrets because we're all trying to get the same clients, but by the end of the week it's just like they're the most open people you know, because they've seen the value of sharing and being honest and being open.
00:22:38.803 --> 00:22:51.287
And this is what's working for me and you know, like there's just there's so much more to it than just the way the websites look that you built or there's so much opportunity.
00:22:51.287 --> 00:22:58.422
You know, with however many billions of people in the world there's, there's always going to be a need for a good web designer.
00:22:58.422 --> 00:23:29.301
You know, despite what people are saying, with AI and everything else that's happening and it's certainly something to consider and think about and try to try to figure out again how you are going to stand out, but at the same time, it's like man, there's just so much business opportunity and so many people who need unique things that there will never be a point where it's like, well, all the web designers that are needed are being used by projects, and so you know, good luck everybody else.
00:23:30.262 --> 00:23:35.146
Yeah, every single business owner and DIYer has you know.
00:23:35.146 --> 00:23:40.393
They can build their own website now for sure, and they don't need any help with their copy or messaging.
00:23:40.393 --> 00:23:43.976
They're going to understand SEO with a you know, chat, gpt prompt.
00:23:43.976 --> 00:23:48.190
They know, you know user experience and they can figure that out on their own.
00:23:48.190 --> 00:23:48.500
Now.
00:23:48.500 --> 00:23:49.767
Business owners don't need that.
00:23:49.767 --> 00:23:55.663
They don't need to figure out.
00:23:55.663 --> 00:23:57.328
Email is involved with domains and websites and, um, yeah, they've got it all.
00:23:57.328 --> 00:23:57.891
Yeah, there's no need for us.
00:23:57.891 --> 00:23:59.435
Yeah, yeah, I don't see that happening ever.
00:23:59.435 --> 00:24:01.824
Uh yeah I love.
00:24:01.864 --> 00:24:16.844
I love that you're bringing this up, chris, just because, like, I feel like we're our own worst enemy as creatives, especially with scarcity mindsets, and I understand these are interesting times economically and everything else has, like I mean there may be different worst enemy as creatives, especially with scarcity mindsets, and I understand these are interesting times economically and everything else has like I mean, there may be different fluctuations of that, but that is always the case.
00:24:16.844 --> 00:24:29.523
But the reality is, like I've just gone back this over and over most web designers don't need more than 25 to 50 clients to build a healthy big business, especially depending on your price points.
00:24:29.523 --> 00:24:41.207
How many businesses in the world are the million, like hundreds of millions, business owners and people launching new businesses all the time?
00:24:41.207 --> 00:24:57.063
There is a scarcity of web designers, quite honestly, especially web designers who are not just pixel pushers, like folks who are like really in and we take it a level back and say, like web designers who actually care and give a crap.
00:24:57.063 --> 00:24:57.684
That's really.
00:24:58.666 --> 00:25:03.220
I've banged on that drum for years because that's how I got started.
00:25:03.220 --> 00:25:09.842
Not having any expertise and very good design skills, quite honestly, is I really did care and clients can sense that.
00:25:09.842 --> 00:25:12.769
So, going back to those intangibles.
00:25:12.769 --> 00:25:20.470
I feel like it's worthwhile really for everyone sitting down and thinking about your intangibles Like where's my level of care?
00:25:20.470 --> 00:25:22.086
Where's my passions in this work?
00:25:22.086 --> 00:25:23.326
What do I do that I enjoy?
00:25:23.326 --> 00:25:25.047
What do I do that I want to help others with?
00:25:25.047 --> 00:25:26.983
What type of people do I like helping with?
00:25:26.983 --> 00:25:29.671
And my gosh, that could take you so far.
00:25:29.671 --> 00:25:35.644
There's just, there's no need for a scarcity mindset.
00:25:35.644 --> 00:25:36.228
Now more than ever, yeah, yeah.
00:25:36.228 --> 00:25:38.699
I think the folks who have the opposite of that are the ones who are going to go really far, really fast.
00:25:38.719 --> 00:25:39.780
Yeah, yeah, you know it's interesting.
00:25:39.780 --> 00:26:04.730
Um, I actually, uh, probably last fall, got a fairly big client for myself, um, and it came down that it was between me and this like bigger agency, and so the client was talking with them and he sent me the agency's proposal and was like hey, can you look at this and just tell me how you would be different?
00:26:04.730 --> 00:26:09.230
And like if you would be able to deliver some of the things that that they're talking about?
00:26:09.230 --> 00:26:19.112
And so, as I was looking at their proposal, I was like I feel like this is everything that I have said that I'm going to be doing for them.
00:26:19.180 --> 00:26:20.539
So what was the disconnect?
00:26:20.539 --> 00:26:20.980
Like?
00:26:20.980 --> 00:26:28.721
Why did he feel like their proposal was so much stronger than mine that he would say, hey, can you level up to this, you know?
00:26:28.721 --> 00:26:43.528
And so I realized it was the way that they were communicating about what they were delivering, and so we were both going to deliver probably close to the same level of quality of product, you know.
00:26:43.528 --> 00:26:48.645
And we both showed like, here's our background, here's the stuff that I have done.
00:26:48.645 --> 00:27:20.210
It was pretty similar, you know, like there wasn't anything that's like oh, this is drastically better than mine, but the difference that he felt was the way that they were presenting and communicating, and so that's when I realized, like, all right, I need to figure out how to communicate in such a way that you know a client is going to feel more secure in saying yes to me, and that's that intangible that that you're talking about, and that's, I think, that the more AI becomes prevalent in the work that we do, the thing that's going to help you stand out more like.
00:27:20.210 --> 00:27:22.262
People are going to want the human connection.
00:27:22.262 --> 00:27:28.284
They're going to want the, the interaction that you wouldn't be able to get from a computer.
00:27:29.007 --> 00:27:32.359
Was that in the case of that agency proposal and the way they were communicating?
00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:37.791
Was it specifically a level of personalization and like one-on-one contact with you?
00:27:37.791 --> 00:27:41.570
If you could drill down to exactly what the difference was in communication, what do you think that was?
00:27:42.220 --> 00:27:42.500
Yeah.
00:27:42.500 --> 00:27:43.903
So some of it was.
00:27:43.903 --> 00:27:52.722
They had like a slide deck presentation that they were kind of mapping out Like here's some past examples, here's our framework.
00:27:52.722 --> 00:28:16.653
So they went really into the details of their process and I had kind of touched on that in my calls with him, but there was never a point where I was like all right, let's look at this together here's A, B, C, D and this is exactly the path that I'm going to take you on to ensure success, and here's the things that we're going to avoid so we don't get in any pitfalls.
00:28:16.653 --> 00:28:19.565
And so I had that.
00:28:19.565 --> 00:28:36.009
I just didn't have a systematized way of communicating that, and so it didn't feel like I'd put too much um of the onus on the potential client to like figure that out, as I'm just kind of spit balling on a zoom call, you know.
00:28:36.009 --> 00:28:41.926
And so, um, yeah, that was probably the biggest thing was just how it was presented and communicated.
00:28:42.709 --> 00:28:43.451
And so they went.
00:28:43.451 --> 00:28:45.161
Did you go forward with you or the agency?
00:28:45.161 --> 00:28:46.082
I'm sorry, Did I miss that he?
00:28:46.143 --> 00:28:47.304
ended up going forward with me.
00:28:47.304 --> 00:28:54.874
Uh it price point, uh, you know, because I I bet I was less than half of what they were asking for.
00:28:54.874 --> 00:28:59.546
Um, but it was still like a really sizable project for me.
00:28:59.546 --> 00:29:03.212
I just don't have agency overhead that they did gotcha.
00:29:03.252 --> 00:29:06.451
Yeah, I was wondering like, yeah, what was the what?
00:29:06.451 --> 00:29:08.096
Yeah, was it a level of personalization?
00:29:08.096 --> 00:29:08.960
I'm sure that helped too.
00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:17.386
Though, like I don't know, would the agency have looked over, reviewed your proposal and really gave it, given a, like you know, personalized, one-on-one response?
00:29:17.386 --> 00:29:18.430
I don't know, probably not.
00:29:18.430 --> 00:29:21.124
I I would guess, like maybe they would say they reviewed it.
00:29:21.183 --> 00:29:42.989
But you know, if that's a perfect example of like I mean, yes, you were lower in price and and yes, there were deliverables that didn't require the extra overhead and everything that agency, it's a problem with agencies and, by the way, the hard part for agencies, they're competing with folks who, if you can get stuff done with one or a very lean team which is what I teach on then yeah, why wouldn't you do that?
00:29:42.989 --> 00:29:48.449
And there's going to be more personalization and you're not going to be just a number on a spreadsheet and you don't need to pay for their.
00:29:48.449 --> 00:29:50.173
You know, big holiday parties, that's.
00:29:50.173 --> 00:29:57.468
You know that's very, that's a, that's a unique selling position for all freelancers and solopreneurs and small teams too.
00:29:57.468 --> 00:29:59.211
Yeah, so yeah.
00:29:59.893 --> 00:30:03.846
Yeah, and I think to you know, there, there, there are clients.
00:30:03.846 --> 00:30:18.615
So I have had clients who've said, you know, like, hey, we're also talking to an agency and they're going to give us a project manager, they're going to give us a designer, they're going to give us a developer, and it's just you.
00:30:18.615 --> 00:30:19.878
So how are you going to make up for all those differences?
00:30:19.878 --> 00:30:35.420
And so you know, like some people, especially bigger businesses, um, it's they have more money than they have resources and time, and so they'd rather spend more money to know that they don't have to have their hands as much in the project.
00:30:35.420 --> 00:30:38.903
But for a lot of people it's, like you know, a website might be one of the.
00:30:38.903 --> 00:30:57.512
You know like 30, 40 grand on a new, really simple website, which is what most agencies are going to ask for, just to have the conversation.
00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:05.907
Yeah Well, I'll tell you my fix for that, which is have a team page that has collaborators and they don't need to need to subcontract with you often.
00:31:05.907 --> 00:31:24.902
I mean, it's one thing I tell my Web Designer Pro members I'm like you automatically have a team when you join Web Designer Pro, because it could literally just be you you could have never hired anyone else to help you and you can say if we have a really big project that we need other hands on, that go far into DNS or far into e-commerce or far into memberships or whatever it is.
00:31:24.902 --> 00:31:28.969
I'm a part of the community and it's a team of collaborators who can step in with needed.
00:31:28.969 --> 00:31:32.334
That's the quick solution for that that I found.
00:31:32.334 --> 00:31:40.971
And then, once you do have a few contractors that you work with occasionally, then they're on your team page and you just put collaborates frequently or how often they help.
00:31:40.971 --> 00:31:53.288
But yeah, it's funny because the same thing I did in 2011 works today probably even better and that is to put your sweet spot on your website.
00:31:53.951 --> 00:32:08.759
Um, I, I literally created a graphic that still works today, and it's this little graphic that says I'm not a stressed out freelancer who does everything him or herself and can't answer an email within three days, but I'm not an agency where you're going to be treated like a number.
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:17.511
I'm right in the middle me, and then you other folks who work with me, or I have a team of collaborators, and that's still such a wonderful sweet spot that so many businesses want.
00:32:17.511 --> 00:32:28.648
It's a great point, though, chris, because there are times where you're like, yeah, look, you need an agency, you need full-blown, they're going to be really heavily involved in your business, unless I'm going to work part-time for you.
00:32:28.648 --> 00:32:37.845
You need, you know, departments of people to help you, but most freelancers aren't getting too many leads that are that robust, at least from my experience.
00:32:38.946 --> 00:32:45.808
Yeah, and that's that's been my experience as well, and there's there's a lot of opportunity in that space.
00:32:45.808 --> 00:32:56.981
You know, um, you know not to say that it's if you want to scale up to the agency level, that it's not worth the idea of the conversation, um, because that certainly is a place to be.
00:32:56.981 --> 00:33:04.846
You know, like sometimes agencies are able to put out better work because they have people who are really specified in their skill, you know.
00:33:04.846 --> 00:33:14.567
So they have a brand designer, they have a motion designer, they have somebody who's doing things for UI and UX, like they've got all these individual parts.
00:33:14.567 --> 00:33:26.628
But you know, that's that's for a level that it's like you're you're really trying to eke out just maybe 3% more value from this new thing.
00:33:26.628 --> 00:33:33.971
Like it doesn't need to drastically overhaul, it doesn't need to make a huge impact, it just needs to add maybe a few dollar signs to their budget.
00:33:35.840 --> 00:33:39.570
How many cause you're, a you know self-made words on a brand you're.
00:33:39.570 --> 00:33:43.971
I know you're a freedom based, you know heartfelt business kind of guy Like.
00:33:43.971 --> 00:33:55.935
How many happy agency owners do you think you've met who have like a ton of departments and are truly like happy?
00:33:55.935 --> 00:34:07.211
Yeah, I don't a couple.
00:34:07.211 --> 00:34:20.775
But they've been much more owner focused from the get go and they like pretty intentionally or at least they were at a point in their journey when they started an agency where they knew how to build a team and knew what worked for them.
00:34:21.661 --> 00:34:24.289
Really good example is a site called Studio One Design.
00:34:24.289 --> 00:34:32.661
I had their owner on there from Australia and he's one of the very few true agency owners that is balanced and still loves what he does.
00:34:32.661 --> 00:34:34.867
But I haven't met many.
00:34:34.867 --> 00:35:11.289
They're mostly especially now in 2025, we're seeing the remnants of burned out agency owners and man, the agency life is a brutal, hard life because, yes, you may have marketing departments of folks, but I've seen it firsthand the amount of churn that agencies deal with and a client may get a marketing head director, they may get a developer, they may get a designer and they may get a production assistant, but they may get like two or three new production assistants during their contract with them because they're turning people out so bad.
00:35:11.289 --> 00:35:12.492
So I'm all.
00:35:12.512 --> 00:35:27.125
I'm just saying I wouldn't envy the agency world at all right now, for sure, for sure, yeah, um so a friend of mine, mike Janda, you know he talks about how familiar with him yeah.
00:35:28.226 --> 00:35:43.985
Yeah, he, he's talked about, um, like when he was running an agency, he had to have a like a Google sheet that listed out how long they could run, even if they didn't get another job starting today.
00:35:44.146 --> 00:36:06.192
Just because it was so stressful, it was like there's so many things that could go wrong, there's so many things that could happen, and so in order to sleep at night, he had to know okay, we've got six months of runway before we really need to start worrying, or we've got a year of runway before we really need to start worrying, and so there's, there's a way to mitigate that, there's a way to do it well.
00:36:06.192 --> 00:36:22.121
But I know that people that work for agencies, typically it's like it's younger folks who don't have a lot of other responsibilities outside of their job, and so they don't need a lot of money and they can work, and it's always kind of talked about as a stepping stone.
00:36:22.121 --> 00:36:24.489
You know, like I got a lot of experience.
00:36:24.489 --> 00:36:32.806
I, you know, built my chops through doing agency work and then I went out and did it myself, so so I would agree it's it's a tough.
00:36:32.806 --> 00:36:34.751
It's a tough world to play in.
00:36:34.751 --> 00:36:36.181
You know.
00:36:36.181 --> 00:36:41.572
Of course there are folks who are doing it well, but it's going to have its own unique set of challenges.
00:36:43.081 --> 00:36:44.744
Well, and even the folks who are doing it well.
00:36:44.744 --> 00:36:49.181
I wonder, this is where the idea of like, comparing yourself to them, man, did.
00:36:49.181 --> 00:36:55.447
I experience this when I started you know, becoming successful as a freelancer, I looked at some agencies in town.
00:36:55.447 --> 00:37:00.112
I felt so envious that they had a cool office downtown and, like, man, should I do that?
00:37:00.112 --> 00:37:07.981
And what I've realized is, like the true mission of what you want to do in your work that trumps everything.
00:37:07.981 --> 00:37:13.065
Because, like I, just I didn't want to drive every day downtown and deal with traffic.
00:37:13.065 --> 00:37:32.492
I wanted to work from home, I didn't want the overhead, and they just had different missions and different levels of experience behind them and I think a lot of agency owners probably I would say I would bet that a lot of them view their agency in creating something that's sellable or something that's an exit.
00:37:33.402 --> 00:37:48.795
I had a conversation back on the podcast not too long ago with Matt Gartland, who was the CEO of Smart Passive Income, with Pat Flynn, and he said when you start your business, you have to ask yourself are you creating a job, a business or an exit?
00:37:48.795 --> 00:37:56.550
And I really love that frame because it does put everything into perspective, like there's nothing wrong with creating a freelance job for yourself.
00:37:56.550 --> 00:38:00.251
If that's what you want to do at least, even if it's, you know, for a while, that's fine.
00:38:00.251 --> 00:38:09.010
Creating a business is very different than creating a freelancing job for yourself, and creating something that's going to be sellable by a certain time is very different than just creating a business.
00:38:09.010 --> 00:38:11.275
So yeah, I don't know.
00:38:11.275 --> 00:38:15.806
I just think that's really important, because most agency owners are probably creating a business and an exit.
00:38:16.929 --> 00:38:17.610
No, no agent.
00:38:17.690 --> 00:38:27.648
Owner is like I want to create a job for myself where I have to oversee 30 people and have to work 90 hours a week, and I'm just going to love all these team meeting calls.
00:38:27.648 --> 00:38:29.271
I'm going to love hiring and firing.
00:38:29.271 --> 00:38:30.072
It's just going to be great.
00:38:30.072 --> 00:38:35.668
No, they're doing it because they want to build a business that they probably want to exit from in a certain amount of time without dying before they do it.
00:38:36.369 --> 00:38:36.851
It's funny.
00:38:36.851 --> 00:38:45.335
I just did a workshop with a couple of designers in Showit about using white label designers.
00:38:45.335 --> 00:38:50.704
So there's the business owner who has a business.
00:38:50.704 --> 00:38:53.088
She probably works about 15 to 20 hours a week.
00:38:53.088 --> 00:39:13.632
Her other job is to be a stay-at-home mom and so she does homeschooling with her kids is by hiring people who are on her team, but they're not necessarily only working for her.
00:39:13.632 --> 00:39:20.509
And so you know it's another opportunity where it's like you could actually scale.
00:39:20.509 --> 00:39:32.222
You know like you could take on more work if you had a few collaborators like you've talked about, or folks who it's like you've taken them through your processes.
00:39:32.222 --> 00:39:33.387
Obviously there's onboarding.
00:39:33.387 --> 00:39:39.963
There's a little bit of like working out the details of how the relationship is going to work and how you like to run your systems, um.
00:39:39.963 --> 00:39:47.829
But you know there's so much opportunity out there because there are folks who they'd rather not be face to face with the client.
00:39:47.829 --> 00:39:53.581
They just want to do the work and they're willing to take less money because they're they realize they're not going out there and getting the business.
00:39:55.264 --> 00:39:56.646
Yeah, it's a great point.
00:39:56.646 --> 00:40:08.822
I think it actually I think it leads to this like pulling the curtain back on the challenges of being an agency owner is, I think, where people get really scared to scale.
00:40:08.822 --> 00:40:19.072
The last course that I released last year was called Scale your Way and it's been really interesting to see people the results they're getting from that course.
00:40:19.072 --> 00:40:38.588
But mostly the results have been a mindset shift in being confident and comfortable to scale but not be a stressed out agency, because there really are a lot of ways to go about it, and that's one for sure just having contractors and white labelers and not the stress of a full-time W2 employee or multiple.
00:40:38.588 --> 00:40:46.208
There's also, I think, a self-awareness thing, like you mentioned there, chris, which is know what you want to do.
00:40:46.699 --> 00:40:52.273
If you really hate development and troubleshooting, you can hire that out from day one.
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:55.487
Even if you're working part-time, you can absolutely get help with that.
00:40:55.487 --> 00:41:01.309
You can focus on the creative parts and the selling and the client communication, or vice versa.
00:41:01.309 --> 00:41:08.507
Maybe you really like having hands in the coding and you really enjoy that aspect of things, but you dread going to a networking group.
00:41:08.507 --> 00:41:19.771
There's a lot of different ways to be able to get help on the sales part, or partnering with people as a white label person to do the development and the design that a lot of people like myself don't really want to do.
00:41:19.771 --> 00:41:33.260
So I think that's the cool thing about the world of freelance solopreneurship and I'll call it studio versus agency world is there's just a lot more flexibility.
00:41:33.260 --> 00:41:52.306
And I don't want to derail anyone or speak badly about agencies as a whole, like they're really some people like it, but I think most maybe just because we're in the freelance world primarily and do you see that too, where people are afraid to become an agency, they're like I don't want to scale, it just sounds horrible and so stressful.
00:41:53.407 --> 00:42:15.063
Yeah, you know, I, I think I see a lot of people who have tried dipping their toes into it and then it didn't go well right off the bat and so they just kind of, you know, scurried back to what felt safe and so, kind of, you know, scurried back to what felt safe.
00:42:15.063 --> 00:42:22.882
And so, because it is a different part of your brain that you're teaching a new skill, you know, it's not the web design, it's not the getting a client, it's no.
00:42:22.882 --> 00:42:28.784
Now you're overseeing people, you're learning how to communicate your leadership.
00:42:28.804 --> 00:42:44.373
Yeah, yeah, all of those things you know, you're you're translating from the business owner to the person who's working on the project Like a lot of times that those skills are something it's like we feel like we should just be good at from the very beginning.
00:42:44.432 --> 00:42:50.545
But it actually takes a lot of development and you're not just going to be good at it right off the bat.
00:42:50.545 --> 00:43:02.771
So you've got to, you've got to give yourself some runway and you've got to say, like I'm going to, I'm going to try this for X number of times before I say this isn't the right season for me.
00:43:02.771 --> 00:43:20.286
You know so, like I was working, uh, with a video editor for some of my YouTube stuff and he was just like hey, listen, like, in order for us to know if this is going to work out, we really need to do like three videos together and I was like, oh, okay, yeah, that makes, that makes sense.
00:43:20.286 --> 00:43:26.108
You know, like, like we number one, it gets you more business and so that's kind of helpful for you.
00:43:26.108 --> 00:43:29.476
But number two, like, yeah, the first one's going to be kind of rough.
00:43:29.476 --> 00:43:39.398
You know, like you're learning how you're communicating, you're learning what gets missed or what needs to have some directed attention towards and so like.
00:43:39.398 --> 00:43:43.713
But the more reps you get into those things, the easier it's going to be every single time.
00:43:44.835 --> 00:43:52.869
That's a great point, and one thing that I teach in my course scale your way and also have learned is when you dip your toe into scaling.
00:43:52.869 --> 00:43:55.456
And by scaling I just mean like getting help to start.
00:43:55.456 --> 00:43:58.273
In most cases, web designers are just buried and they're like I can't.
00:43:58.273 --> 00:43:59.425
I literally can't do all this.
00:43:59.425 --> 00:44:05.719
I need to get help at some, some capacity, make it low risk and low pressure to start.
00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:21.579
Like, don't just hire somebody you meet on, we'll just say Upwork for now as a designer, and then say hey, here's a 20 page website, here's our strategy call with the client.
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:22.443
You know, here's our portfolio.
00:44:22.463 --> 00:44:22.744
Good luck.
00:44:22.744 --> 00:44:26.766
99.9%.
00:44:26.766 --> 00:44:27.349
That's not going to go well.
00:44:27.349 --> 00:44:31.405
But if you give them like a page or or a couple pages to build out based off of what you're doing, then you it's a very low risk, low pressure kind of approach.
00:44:32.027 --> 00:44:37.918
One thing that I learned with Jonathan, who was my lead designer for a long time, was we started like that I gave him like a section.
00:44:37.918 --> 00:44:40.871
Well, first I gave him like a part of a footer to work on.
00:44:40.871 --> 00:44:42.034
He did great on that.
00:44:42.034 --> 00:44:49.952
I gave him a section to work on, then gave him a page to work on, then gave him multiple pages to work on, and then I felt comfortable like, okay, he can absolutely build a whole site.
00:44:49.952 --> 00:44:56.168
And I was still doing strategy, initial calls and overall creative director type stuff.
00:44:56.168 --> 00:45:09.907
But then we got to the point where, like, he became better than I was at designing, so I felt comfortable with just getting the project kicked off and then it turned over to him and it was literally and then eventually he got involved with client communication and that's how we rolled.
00:45:09.907 --> 00:45:13.740
So all that to say like start off, low risk, low pressure.
00:45:13.740 --> 00:45:19.065
Don't yeah, Don't put yourself in a position to blow up your business the first time you get a little bit of help.
00:45:19.688 --> 00:45:25.327
Yeah, it'll be a lot better experience and that way, if it goes bad, it's like okay, that page is terrible, let's try one more.
00:45:25.327 --> 00:45:26.288
Yeah, I'm not a good fit.
00:45:26.288 --> 00:45:26.929
I think we can.
00:45:26.929 --> 00:45:27.889
Yeah, we're just not a good fit.
00:45:28.451 --> 00:45:30.512
Yeah, yeah so video guy I'm.
00:45:30.652 --> 00:45:36.018
You know that was probably a good, like you know, if you did three and it's like, okay, we didn't get it after three, no harm.
00:45:36.018 --> 00:45:38.702
Yeah, you know not a good fit.
00:45:39.543 --> 00:45:45.233
Yeah, and the, the, the two designers that um did the workshop yesterday with me.
00:45:45.233 --> 00:45:48.260
One was the business owner and one was the white label designer.
00:45:48.260 --> 00:46:07.259
Um, they, they, uh say just do a paid test project, you know, where it's not even client facing, where you know you're not asking for free work to be done, but like, hey, you know, build me a hero section and here's the brief, you know, and then I'll give you $500.
00:46:07.259 --> 00:46:11.376
I just want to see what you're going to come up with, just to see what your style is.
00:46:11.376 --> 00:46:15.110
You know, um, like that can be another opportunity.
00:46:15.110 --> 00:46:29.856
And another one of their tips was like don't try to do it when you're busy, like it's actually the worst time to do it when you feel slammed, because not only do you have to finish the project but you also have to teach somebody how to help you finish the project.
00:46:30.016 --> 00:46:32.893
So it's like it's kind of the worst moment.
00:46:33.536 --> 00:46:34.438
Yeah, that was.
00:46:34.438 --> 00:46:44.670
I will say I got through it because I I've notoriously publicly said I had 23 projects and I was like, oh my God, I literally can't do it on my own anymore.
00:46:44.670 --> 00:46:45.733
I didn't have a choice.
00:46:45.733 --> 00:46:49.688
I had to like jack up my rates or scale in some capacity.
00:46:49.688 --> 00:46:51.130
And I did make it through it.
00:46:51.130 --> 00:46:55.157
But yeah, man, do I wish I would have like have like you know, like just transparently.
00:46:55.157 --> 00:46:59.690
I wish I would have gone through my course to be prepared to scale before you even think you're ready to scale.
00:47:00.070 --> 00:47:00.873
At least you know that way.
00:47:00.873 --> 00:47:04.269
When you get to that point, you know like okay, let me create an org chart.
00:47:04.269 --> 00:47:07.498
Most design I bet most web designers don't have an org chart.
00:47:07.498 --> 00:47:10.811
So right now, visualize an org chart.
00:47:10.811 --> 00:47:13.536
Or just google org chart or chat, gpt and org chart.
00:47:13.536 --> 00:47:19.762
There's a ceo, there's a creative director, there's a salesperson, there's marketing, content creation.
00:47:19.762 --> 00:47:26.748
There's a designer, there's developer, there's tech support, there's ongoing admin like your face is in all of those spots right now.
00:47:26.748 --> 00:47:33.469
So as soon as you get to the point where you're somewhat busy, I would start to chip away at what you don't want to do.
00:47:33.750 --> 00:47:39.715
Yeah, yeah, yeah, isn't that awesome Like this is so cool about this industry is we really do.
00:47:39.715 --> 00:47:45.891
I don't know of another industry where you can have so much freedom outside of just your work time and stuff.
00:47:45.891 --> 00:47:49.126
But, like in your business, you have the freedom Like most.
00:47:49.126 --> 00:48:00.014
I don't know Most people who get into like loans probably don't have that much flexibility with their work in loans Like you probably have like stuff you got to follow all the time.
00:48:00.014 --> 00:48:03.838
But we can do whatever one of those roles we want to as our main role.
00:48:04.458 --> 00:48:21.150
Yeah for sure, and there's so many new, different things to learn as you go to you Like that's, that's honestly one of the reasons why I love web design.
00:48:21.150 --> 00:48:22.556
It's like, well, you know, like web design in general is such a big idea.
00:48:22.556 --> 00:48:24.222
You know, it's not just web development, it's not just UX UI, like no, this is we're.
00:48:24.222 --> 00:48:25.166
We're building things for the web.
00:48:25.166 --> 00:48:26.889
Well, what well, it could be an app.
00:48:26.889 --> 00:48:28.913
Uh, it could be a website.
00:48:28.913 --> 00:48:32.581
Um, that could mean that you're a part of the development process.
00:48:32.581 --> 00:48:34.364
That could mean that you're a part of the design process.
00:48:34.364 --> 00:48:37.005
That mean you're a part of all of those things.
00:48:37.005 --> 00:48:49.108
You could be doing SEO, you could be doing strategy, and and so you know as much as you know, I get kicked back every once in a while and some of my content, like you know, web designers aren't web developers and vice versa.
00:48:49.108 --> 00:48:53.074
It's like, ah, I mean you might have to be fairly soon.
00:48:53.074 --> 00:49:02.012
You know, like there's a day coming where a generous is probably going to be more in demand than somebody who's really specific.
00:49:03.025 --> 00:49:03.829
That's interesting.
00:49:03.829 --> 00:49:05.110
I really thought about it like that.
00:49:05.110 --> 00:49:43.148
I mean I I've definitely seen for my members in my little sphere and web designer pro, my members in my little sphere and Web Designer Pro a lot of the folks who are at a like six and multi six figure level either have just a lot of maintenance plans and have scaled up some sort of MRR or their services or a higher price point, or they are doing things like strategy and consultative services.
00:49:43.148 --> 00:49:47.802
They don't even necessarily need to be a digital marketing agency, but they're definitely positioned now more as a trusted web guide, like a webmaster, versus just somebody who's taking orders and making the logo bigger.
00:49:47.802 --> 00:49:48.563
That is what I recommend folks get to.
00:49:48.563 --> 00:49:54.217
Even if they're fairly new, you could still become a bit of a strategist and kind of a consultant.
00:49:54.217 --> 00:50:05.157
I mean, honestly, most web designers, all web designers, are doing some level of strategy and consultative services from day one, so you might as well position yourself like that.
00:50:05.344 --> 00:50:10.317
I still like saying a web designer, because if you say you're a web designer, you will get clients.
00:50:10.317 --> 00:50:13.954
If you go to a networking group and do it consistently, you will get clients.
00:50:13.954 --> 00:50:17.063
If you go to a networking group and do it consistently, you will get clients promise guaranteed, a hundred percent guaranteed.
00:50:17.063 --> 00:50:18.487
It's just it opens doors.
00:50:18.487 --> 00:50:23.768
But that next level back I've, I've learned and I think now like to your point.
00:50:23.768 --> 00:50:30.829
I think now is that point where businesses do just want somebody who knows what the heck's going on on the web.
00:50:30.829 --> 00:50:33.534
So I agree, yeah.
00:50:33.574 --> 00:50:40.327
You don't do everything, but you know, if you know your lanes and can do a few things, well, particularly if it's just on the website, that's where the gold is.
00:50:40.989 --> 00:50:54.197
Yeah, yeah, nielsen put out an article just recently that talked about, like, the era of specialization being almost over, especially with the introduction of AI.
00:50:54.197 --> 00:51:07.077
You know, it's just so much easier to know a lot of things about a lot of things, and so, like we have to be ready to say like all right, what's, what's the new skill that I can learn or add to the repertoire?
00:51:07.077 --> 00:51:13.679
And, like you're talking about the, the people who are making, you know, multiple six figures.
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:25.474
They're hardly ever just designing the pages, you know, unless they're just some kind of crazy good designer, which I've not even really seen somebody that is at that level who's just designing, you know.
00:51:26.005 --> 00:51:37.512
Yeah, I think the case for that would be if they're working with brands that are making so much online that literally, a call to action tweak may be worth tens of thousands or hundreds or millions of dollars.
00:51:37.552 --> 00:51:43.916
I think that's where, like you know, some of the top level design design folks get to, but I mean those are few and far between.
00:51:43.916 --> 00:52:00.777
It is interesting, your, your, your pushback towards the idea of a specialist, because I've heard so much of the opposite in that, like folks are saying, drill down into a specialty, go niche, and it definitely makes things more referable when it's like, yes, this person does this.
00:52:00.777 --> 00:52:08.239
But even the folks I think of, who I'm utilizing and referring people to, they do a few different things.
00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:26.228
They may have a lead specialty, but it's not their only specialty, so that I agree on for sure where it's like you got a few bags of specialty, but it's not their only specialty, so that I agree on for sure where it's like you know, you got a few bags of tricks but you've got made one that may be the primary lead source, but then when they use you for that, the work doesn't stop, you say, oh shoot, you do this too and you do this.
00:52:26.228 --> 00:52:27.972
Interesting, awesome.
00:52:28.514 --> 00:52:38.969
Yeah yeah, you know, contrary to popular advice, I have never really niched down and some of that is my brain, Like I.
00:52:38.969 --> 00:52:46.291
Just I have a hard time like really going deep for a very long time, Like I are you afraid of getting bored?
00:52:46.692 --> 00:52:49.606
A hundred percent, and so I just know a lot of things about a lot of things.
00:52:49.606 --> 00:52:55.507
And so it's like you know, like I'm, I'm okay, going like all right, a lot of things.
00:52:55.507 --> 00:53:04.505
And so it's like you know, like I'm, I'm okay, going like all right, for six months let's really get into SEO, and then for another six months let's learn machine learning, because that sounds like something that is probably going to be important within this next decade, you know.
00:53:04.505 --> 00:53:10.097
And so I've never had issues like could I be making more money?
00:53:10.097 --> 00:53:15.666
Maybe you know, but maybe I'd be making less if I didn't necessarily niche down into what I'm doing.
00:53:15.666 --> 00:53:21.989
So I think, I think the road that I've taken might take a little bit longer to to get up there.
00:53:21.989 --> 00:53:26.778
You know, like, if you want, to go designer yeah, a hundred percent, like if.
00:53:27.005 --> 00:53:33.393
if you want to make a lot of money really quickly, yes, pick a niche, go hard into it and then you'll get there.
00:53:33.393 --> 00:53:41.266
But if you're thinking about longevity over the long haul, like not necessarily niching down is maybe a good option for you.
00:53:42.708 --> 00:53:47.438
I think it goes all goes back to what you want and I with a with niche.
00:53:47.438 --> 00:53:50.228
It's funny, it really is 50, 50.
00:53:50.228 --> 00:53:58.985
It can, yeah, it can, absolutely work and you can do it at scale and you it could be an easier sell because you know the clients, you know your target market, you know the messaging and everything.
00:53:58.985 --> 00:54:14.139
But you can also run into the risk that I've seen for people who want to go niche where, unless you're like so certain about who you want to serve, that is an unnecessary challenge you put on yourself.
00:54:14.139 --> 00:54:15.929
You absolutely can be a generalist.
00:54:15.929 --> 00:54:16.992
I was, you are.
00:54:17.072 --> 00:54:22.545
So many of our Pro members I oversee are and a lot of them are very happy to just work with different types of businesses.
00:54:22.545 --> 00:54:32.695
You can always go like hybrid niche to where you have maybe it's not like just chiropractors, but you serve healthcare or wellness.
00:54:32.695 --> 00:54:34.798
Wellness is what wellness means.
00:54:34.798 --> 00:54:37.592
You got yoga instructors, dietitians, nutritionists.
00:54:37.592 --> 00:54:41.512
You know you don't have to go like hyper, hyper niche and I I do.
00:54:41.512 --> 00:54:41.893
I love that.
00:54:41.914 --> 00:54:46.653
You said that, chris, just cause that is something that I'm like I'm trying to help people or they're like I got to pick a niche.
00:54:46.653 --> 00:55:01.085
I'm like, no, you, no, you don't.
00:55:01.085 --> 00:55:01.726
If you don't know your niche.
00:55:01.726 --> 00:55:02.650
Don't pick a niche yet, just do web design.
00:55:02.650 --> 00:55:06.117
I promise eventually you'll get to the point where, like, okay, I like these types of people, but yeah, there's no pressure to niche, niche, niche, however you say it.
00:55:06.117 --> 00:55:12.934
Yeah, no, I like that, it's true and to your like, to your situation, you're balancing full-time work for show it your freelance stuff and your your teaching.
00:55:12.934 --> 00:55:16.822
You know your your passion stuff and your your teaching you know your your passion stuff through side or side I was going to say side made web designer.
00:55:17.045 --> 00:55:25.945
That actually may be your true brand, but you are this self-made web designer, but you know you're, you've got three different income streams technically.
00:55:25.945 --> 00:55:32.224
So yeah, yeah, there's like, there's no, there's no reason to put added pressure on yourself.
00:55:32.224 --> 00:55:34.391
I feel like when somebody has that kind of thing going on.
00:55:34.974 --> 00:55:54.545
Yeah, and eventually, especially when I was first getting started, I just happened to be doing a lot of websites for people who were in personal training, and so it was like, okay, I could easily take this and say I've done like four or five websites for personal trainers.
00:55:54.545 --> 00:55:59.644
That's enough of a portfolio that I could say I am the web designer for personal trainers.
00:55:59.644 --> 00:56:05.889
You know, um, I didn't end up going that route because it's like this is not really a niche I want to stay in.
00:56:05.889 --> 00:56:17.768
You know, like I like being able to help the personal trainer and the investment firm, you know, and so, um, but it you'll eventually start to see patterns in the types of clients that you're getting.
00:56:17.768 --> 00:56:21.476
You'll see patterns in the type of stuff you like doing.
00:56:21.476 --> 00:56:25.913
Um, and a mix of that is a good opportunity.
00:56:25.913 --> 00:56:35.010
Like, if you could say like, hey, yeah, like I could see myself helping doing this type of website over and over again for the next however long, then maybe that's a good option.
00:56:35.010 --> 00:56:36.695
I could just never see myself doing that.
00:56:38.146 --> 00:56:55.478
That and then also, if you really commit to going niche and you're not 100% sure you're going to enjoy it or it's going to work, then a year or two in, if you're going to pivot in a lot of ways, you don't need to completely start over, but you do need to redesign your website.
00:56:56.085 --> 00:57:04.295
Your current portfolio is not going to be the best example of who you want to serve now, so you really have to expand your network in a whole different way.
00:57:04.295 --> 00:57:06.092
You got to have different marketing strategies.
00:57:06.092 --> 00:57:11.829
Pivoting a niche is a whole other challenge and that's something I really talked about.
00:57:11.829 --> 00:57:20.547
But I have seen to where it's like challenge and that's something I really talked about, but I have seen to where it's like I feel bad, but it's like your current roster and client list and network is almost I don't want to say useless, but it's.
00:57:20.547 --> 00:57:23.956
It's not not what you need to move forward.
00:57:23.956 --> 00:57:25.847
It's like what got you here and they're going to get you there.
00:57:25.847 --> 00:57:27.431
And now you got to really start over again.
00:57:27.431 --> 00:57:35.307
If you commit to a niche that you're not truly going to serve for the long haul, yeah, absolutely, and I do know people who have done that successfully.
00:57:35.588 --> 00:58:02.083
There's actually a show at designer who, um, she burned her portfolio, you know, so to speak, and took all of the websites that she had done off of her you know case studies section and then just made um like ideas out of thin air and made, you know, test projects for her own concepts and that's what she ended up showing on her website and that actually turned her business around.
00:58:02.083 --> 00:58:13.938
So it's not that it's impossible, it's just like it's better to have that conversation with yourself earlier in your business than it is to be two or three years in and be like okay.
00:58:19.764 --> 00:58:20.626
I don't like anything that I'm doing.
00:58:20.626 --> 00:58:31.637
Yeah, and the folks who I've seen, who go niche really well, generally come from that industry, like Jason Gracia who has a site called Swift Sites super productized, probably one of the best examples of super well.
00:58:31.637 --> 00:58:46.552
He's not even super niche because he serves coaches in different variety of coaching industries, but he came from that world of motivation and coaching and he just knows those people really well, knows what they need, but it's broad enough to where it's not just fitness coaches, every site.
00:58:46.552 --> 00:58:51.849
And another pro member, kristen, who was recently on the podcast.
00:58:51.849 --> 00:59:12.005
She comes from the speaking world and she just knows speakers and they are coaches too actually a lot of them and she loves serving them and she's even trained like her custom chat GPT to like she's a custom GPT about speaking websites and different content and she loves it because she knows that industry, she loves the industry, she's a speaker herself.
00:59:12.005 --> 00:59:19.719
So I feel like that's when, when it's oh so clear of what you know, who you like to work with, that's the time to go niche.
00:59:19.778 --> 00:59:35.650
But yeah, I just I just wonder like it just it pains me to see people like hang up their business or get delayed in starting or have so much struggles or unnecessarily unnecessary challenges when they're like I gotta go niche, I gotta find my niece.
00:59:35.650 --> 00:59:36.914
I just don't agree.
00:59:36.914 --> 00:59:37.695
I totally agree, man.
00:59:37.695 --> 00:59:42.777
It's just like just do webs, enjoy web design first and figure out what you want to do within web design.
00:59:42.777 --> 00:59:44.088
These can come later.
00:59:44.108 --> 00:59:45.331
A hundred percent.
00:59:45.331 --> 00:59:46.916
Yeah, I think that's solid advice.
00:59:48.646 --> 00:59:49.286
The show it.
00:59:49.286 --> 00:59:52.050
Uh, it's interesting.
00:59:52.050 --> 00:59:57.719
We are in a very, very, very interesting time with website builders.
00:59:57.719 --> 01:00:00.954
Wordpress has a lot of drama going on around it.
01:00:00.954 --> 01:00:06.268
Um, I mean, truly page builders are what's carrying wordpress and the community behind it.
01:00:06.268 --> 01:00:08.795
But wix studio is gaining momentum.
01:00:08.795 --> 01:00:12.286
There's show it, there's squarespace, which is still hanging on really strong.
01:00:12.286 --> 01:00:14.009
There's so many other platforms.
01:00:14.009 --> 01:00:17.831
I'm just kind of curious, like what type of people are you seeing in ShowIt land?
01:00:17.831 --> 01:00:25.318
My VA Jen actually uses ShowIt, yeah, and I know people who use it really like it, just like, I guess, with any platform.
01:00:25.318 --> 01:00:28.081
But are you seeing agency owners with ShowIt?
01:00:28.081 --> 01:00:28.922
Is it freelancers?
01:00:28.922 --> 01:00:32.407
Is it more female driven than male driven?
01:00:32.427 --> 01:00:34.655
What are you seeing in show at land.
01:00:34.655 --> 01:00:38.668
Yeah, it's uh, all of the above, um and like.
01:00:38.668 --> 01:00:42.038
We have design partners who have full fledged agencies.
01:00:42.038 --> 01:00:49.418
Um, we have site shops that are, you know, doing millions of dollars just based on templates.
01:00:49.418 --> 01:00:51.226
Um, you know.
01:00:51.226 --> 01:00:54.434
So there's, there's opportunity.
01:00:54.494 --> 01:01:13.090
No matter what kind of web design business you're you're wanting to build, I would say, like, the thing that separates us from, um, a lot of other website builders is, like, what you see within the show at website builder is what it's going to look like on the webpage.
01:01:13.250 --> 01:01:25.615
You know, and it's it's much easier to move a, an image, three and a half pixels over to the right than it would be on a lot of other website builders.
01:01:25.615 --> 01:01:36.956
You know, so like, of course, all of them have their positives and negatives, you know, um, and there are some great ones out there and, and honestly, like, I would never tell somebody like, show, it is the best and the only.
01:01:36.956 --> 01:01:44.822
It's like, you know, like, no, like, if you want full creative freedom with a website like show, it is the platform for you.
01:01:44.822 --> 01:01:54.538
Yeah, cause our mission is to cultivate the creativity that exists in every individual, um and so like, we are wanting to give you a tool to be more creative with how you're putting yourself online, um and so like.
01:01:54.538 --> 01:01:58.110
We are wanting to give you a tool to be more creative with how you're putting yourself online, um.
01:01:58.110 --> 01:02:09.106
So, as we're Squarespace it, you'd be able to get something up really quickly, but it's going to be tough making tweaks outside of the ability that they've given you.
01:02:09.106 --> 01:02:11.231
You know like they have.
01:02:11.391 --> 01:02:12.432
I have heard that show.
01:02:12.432 --> 01:02:32.567
That seems to be a bit of a bridge in between, like something like a squarespace and but not as like robust, as like a crm like wordpress or something that is open source and you know you can get very, very advanced into well and I would say yeah, we integrate with wordpress and so there are different.
01:02:32.686 --> 01:02:34.427
There are different tiers, like you know.
01:02:34.427 --> 01:02:37.250
You have one, one, one level.
01:02:37.250 --> 01:02:39.811
That's just the show up builder.
01:02:39.811 --> 01:02:53.539
So if you just want to create static pages, then we have like a multi site option, where you've got WordPress but you can't add in your own plugins, and then you've got the advanced blog, which is like it's just like having a WordPress website, and then you've got the advanced blog, which is like it's just like having a WordPress website.
01:02:53.539 --> 01:03:02.443
The difference is you design how you want your website to look and show it and then you connect specific WordPress pages to show it.
01:03:02.443 --> 01:03:13.956
So, but I've created, you know, like really advanced custom post types and advanced custom fields and obviously integrate with WooCommerce and all that kind of stuff to to make some really fun stuff.
01:03:14.436 --> 01:03:14.836
Interesting.
01:03:14.836 --> 01:03:15.637
I didn't realize that.
01:03:15.637 --> 01:03:17.460
So a self-made web designercom is that?
01:03:17.460 --> 01:03:19.327
Show it with WordPress integration.
01:03:19.949 --> 01:03:22.175
Yeah, exactly yeah, so, um.
01:03:22.175 --> 01:03:29.748
So that's all very, very custom WordPress stuff connected to it, so, um.
01:03:29.748 --> 01:03:48.617
So a lot of people say it's like the missing link for WordPress, because you know there are some great WordPress builders, you know, Divi being one of them, Elementor being another, Showit is just much easier to design how you would want it to look.
01:04:25.885 --> 01:04:34.065
No-transcript.
01:04:34.065 --> 01:04:39.221
There are other tools that are coming out that are are kind of filling those shoes.
01:04:39.221 --> 01:04:44.576
But yeah, I actually didn't realize, to the extent of show it, of how far show it goes into that.
01:04:44.576 --> 01:04:45.326
So that's interesting.
01:04:45.326 --> 01:04:46.027
Good for me to know.
01:04:47.010 --> 01:04:54.411
Yeah, yeah, so you know, to answer your questions, like there's, there's all types of different designers that that use our platform.
01:04:54.411 --> 01:04:59.440
Um, we have leaned more towards a female audience.
01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:28.257
Um, and that's not intentionally, just seems to be like we, at the very beginning, we were the website builder for photographers, and so there are a lot of photography businesses that are female led, which is fantastic, and so, um, we've just had a lot of folks that are female business owners that love using our platform, um, and I've got oh sorry, but the crmiu 17 hats is the same way.
01:05:28.338 --> 01:05:32.367
It's largely female customer base and they started in photography as well.
01:05:32.367 --> 01:05:33.210
Yeah, there's definitely.
01:05:33.210 --> 01:05:34.233
Yeah makes sense.
01:05:34.233 --> 01:05:35.155
It just kind of comes with the.
01:05:36.545 --> 01:05:38.251
Yeah, yeah.
01:05:38.251 --> 01:05:49.929
And over time, you know, we kind of found that we had photographers as like an ideal customer avatar, but there was also the designer and a lot of people were photographers who built their own website.
01:05:49.929 --> 01:05:53.072
And then other people were like, wow, your website's great, can you do that for me?
01:05:53.072 --> 01:06:08.293
And so then they pivoted and built a web design business and and so that's kind of the other person that our platform is great for is like, if you're wanting to, you know, learn how to build websites and charge money for it, like it's a great platform for you.
01:06:09.375 --> 01:06:10.117
This was not planned.
01:06:10.117 --> 01:06:13.148
By the way, this episode is sponsored by show it.
01:06:13.148 --> 01:06:18.918
Show it Cause I actually wasn't sure if you were still involved with that.
01:06:18.918 --> 01:06:21.019
So that's cool, man it is.
01:06:21.019 --> 01:06:31.353
It is one of those things where, too, I really do feel for folks getting into web design now, cause it's just it's option, overload, um, it's there.
01:06:31.353 --> 01:06:33.389
There's not a right or wrong solution, there is.
01:06:33.389 --> 01:06:39.132
I really just recommend people play around with a few different things early on and see what they like.
01:06:39.132 --> 01:06:53.512
But, man, I mean, tell me about like experienced web designer like yourself with you know the, the, uh, the, the public transparent adhd that all web designers I feel strongly have in some level.
01:06:53.512 --> 01:07:00.231
How do you not just derail yourself with like shiny new tool syndrome?
01:07:00.251 --> 01:07:31.554
Cause that is another big problem of folks five, 10 years 15 years in it to be like Ooh, shiny new tool with this.
01:07:31.554 --> 01:07:38.557
Yeah, you know, my encouragement to folks who are in that beginning phase is like one try out a lot of trial runs, you know, like most website builders.
01:07:38.557 --> 01:07:39.677
So it goes back to the video editor advice.
01:07:39.677 --> 01:07:49.041
You know, like like, stick to three projects and then evaluate like is this something that I am going to want to learn more about?
01:07:49.041 --> 01:07:50.481
And the answer might be yes.
01:07:50.481 --> 01:07:54.923
And so then you do another three projects and you just keep going until you have a little bit of an expertise in that.
01:07:54.923 --> 01:07:56.690
The answer might be no.
01:07:56.690 --> 01:08:01.177
And then you kind of pivot and try a different platform.
01:08:01.985 --> 01:08:11.414
The problem with a client coming to you and saying I really want my site to be built on this and you being like well, I've never done that before, but let's try it.
01:08:11.414 --> 01:08:15.135
It's like it's going to take you so much time to learn the platform.
01:08:15.135 --> 01:08:18.094
Your profit margin is going to be abysmal.
01:08:18.094 --> 01:08:55.171
You kind of need to put your stake in the ground for a period of time you don't have to stay there forever if you don't like it, but you should at least to commit to a handful of projects before you say, okay, yes, this is what I want to do or I don't want to do, Because, as with anything, it's like you start looking at like, oh, look at all these other features that they just rolled out on Framer or they just rolled out on Webflow, and it's like all that stuff is great, you could probably be doing this stuff in the platform that you're currently using.
01:08:55.171 --> 01:08:58.557
Like, you just haven't really dug into it, you know.
01:08:58.557 --> 01:09:08.496
And so and that was one of the things that, like, I realized when I, when I came on the show, a team is like everybody told me like hey show, it's bad for animations.
01:09:08.676 --> 01:09:11.047
And I'm like is it like?
01:09:11.047 --> 01:09:11.990
How do you know that?
01:09:11.990 --> 01:09:13.855
Is it just because you tell people it's bad?
01:09:13.855 --> 01:09:14.377
It's like.
01:09:14.377 --> 01:09:16.310
And so then I started looking into it.
01:09:16.310 --> 01:09:19.176
I'm like, oh, actually we could do a lot of really cool stuff.
01:09:19.176 --> 01:09:24.287
And then I started showing people the different animations that I was creating and it was like how did you do that?
01:09:24.287 --> 01:09:25.331
I was like it's just right.
01:09:25.331 --> 01:09:26.654
There, there's no code.
01:09:26.654 --> 01:09:36.438
You don't even have to have code, you know, but it's that oh sorry, go ahead, go ahead yeah, I was just saying you didn't have the um.
01:09:37.099 --> 01:09:45.067
I I guess the the adventurous spirit to say, yeah, let's see if we can do this you know, sometimes you gotta take your wife for a date.
01:09:45.728 --> 01:09:49.738
Yeah, sometimes you gotta, you know you gotta spice it up a little bit.
01:09:49.738 --> 01:09:52.190
Like same thing with our tools it is.
01:09:52.190 --> 01:09:52.872
It is funny.
01:09:52.872 --> 01:10:00.810
It's like you use a tool for a while and then you just stop experimenting with it's going to start to sound creepy, but you know, like you just it.
01:10:00.810 --> 01:10:02.456
Like 17 hats, for example.
01:10:02.537 --> 01:10:08.876
I've been using 17 hats for 10 years at this point and there's a new tool called or newer called, moxie, which is a really nice crm.
01:10:08.895 --> 01:10:11.252
A lot of my pro members are using it, kind of caught fire.
01:10:11.252 --> 01:10:24.336
And and then it came to it where 17 hats sponsored our event and then that gave me the opportunity to just like re look at the platform and there was like so many new things that I just didn't even, I just wasn't paying attention to.
01:10:24.336 --> 01:10:26.890
I was like, oh my gosh, cause I almost started using Moxie.
01:10:26.890 --> 01:10:39.789
I'm like wait a minute, 17 hats does that and they do that and they just added that and like there's a lot of new things.
01:10:39.789 --> 01:10:42.840
I'm like, oh my gosh, I I feel bad that I haven't been talking about that in some of my courses and stuff, because I can absolutely do all this now too.
01:10:42.840 --> 01:10:57.478
So, um, same thing with divvy and others like, yeah, I totally agree, man, to avoid siney new object syndrome, don't bail on your current tool, whatever it is yeah, like squeeze the most juice you can out of your current tool before you think I need a new model.
01:10:57.599 --> 01:11:01.694
Yeah, yeah, take your wife out on a date this week, everybody.
01:11:02.646 --> 01:11:03.652
That's a great analogy.
01:11:03.652 --> 01:11:17.469
I actually just wrote a newsletter where I talked about, you know, coming from the music world, which is where I was for a long time, you know, especially guitar players, it's it's all about the gear.
01:11:17.469 --> 01:11:20.855
Like I just need a new pedal or a new guitar or a new amp.
01:11:20.855 --> 01:11:33.226
And I was actually at a conference where, like this guitar player, who's like one of the industry's best, was doing a Q and a and inevitably somebody asked like hey, can you talk about your gear setup?
01:11:33.327 --> 01:11:39.016
And he's like, uh, his name is Lincoln Brewster, so, um, can you talk about your gear setup?
01:11:39.016 --> 01:11:39.277
Who was it?
01:11:39.277 --> 01:11:43.765
And he's like, uh, his name is Lincoln Brewster, so, um, he's definitely more in like the Christian space.
01:11:43.765 --> 01:11:47.789
Um, isn't as popular as much anymore.
01:11:47.789 --> 01:11:50.315
He's kind of he's kind of gone off the scene a little bit.
01:11:50.315 --> 01:11:55.947
But, um, he was just saying, like I just use one pedal, like I don't even have an amp, like it's a line six pedal and that's it.
01:11:55.947 --> 01:12:00.117
And then he said, you know, it's, it's not about the gear that you have, it's about how you use it.
01:12:00.117 --> 01:12:02.609
And I was like, wow, that'll preach man.
01:12:02.609 --> 01:12:27.128
And that's so true for, like everybody in every industry, but especially in in any type of tech world, where it's like, ah, if I just had a better computer, or if I just had a better camera to make better content, or if I just signed up for this new tool that's going to integrate with my website builder and do all these crazy fun things, it's like, hey, maybe just see what you can do with where you're at.
01:12:29.453 --> 01:12:30.778
A tool is not going to save you.
01:12:30.778 --> 01:12:33.770
That's it, man.
01:12:33.770 --> 01:12:35.176
That's such a good point, chris.
01:12:35.176 --> 01:12:36.731
That is genius.
01:12:36.731 --> 01:12:38.405
I absolutely.
01:12:38.405 --> 01:12:42.336
It's funny for the music world, I do.
01:12:42.336 --> 01:12:42.978
You're totally right.
01:12:42.978 --> 01:12:49.478
I think that's probably the hardest for a guitarist, because even with drums like, you can add more to drums.
01:12:49.478 --> 01:12:52.293
As a drummer, I actually had that.
01:12:52.293 --> 01:13:03.014
I learned that mindset of like I'm going to do as much as I can with this, with these set of toms, these set of cymbals and, yeah, guitarists, I could see it's like I get a new pedal, gotta get a new whatever.
01:13:03.014 --> 01:13:06.868
Gotta get three new guitars, gotta get an h string, gotta get whatever it is.
01:13:06.868 --> 01:13:08.612
And, yeah, that's fascinating.
01:13:08.612 --> 01:13:10.735
That's such a good point.
01:13:10.735 --> 01:13:14.966
And singers have the easiest because, unless they're doing vocal effects, you just have a mic.
01:13:14.987 --> 01:13:19.842
Yeah, maybe nobody better to learn from with that than a singer like yeah right.
01:13:19.842 --> 01:13:23.496
How can you get as much as you can out of what you got, which is your voice?
01:13:24.137 --> 01:13:27.167
yeah, absolutely, absolutely that's great man.
01:13:27.208 --> 01:13:28.773
I meant to ask you how you're doing.
01:13:28.773 --> 01:13:30.076
On time we can wrap this up here.
01:13:30.076 --> 01:13:32.591
I know you're at the uh, the retreat here but here.
01:13:32.612 --> 01:13:34.095
But yeah, no, all good.
01:13:34.845 --> 01:13:35.346
Sweet man.
01:13:35.346 --> 01:13:36.831
Well, dude, great to catch up with you.
01:13:36.831 --> 01:13:39.907
This is, yeah, I'm so, so glad to see you back on the scene.
01:13:39.907 --> 01:13:45.310
Um, but, like I said, your newsletter, that first one that just popped in my inbox I was like, oh my gosh, chris is back.
01:13:45.310 --> 01:13:46.654
I think I've messaged you back, right?
01:13:46.654 --> 01:13:55.466
I was like, dude, good to good to be back.
01:13:55.466 --> 01:13:57.492
Yeah, man, I love that you're doing it your way and you're just enjoying it.
01:13:57.492 --> 01:14:00.426
You know kind of written stuff, for is your podcast back?
01:14:01.970 --> 01:14:02.412
It is.
01:14:02.412 --> 01:14:10.470
It's mainly the YouTube channel now, so it's it's YouTube that also has a podcast, whereas before it was podcasts that also had a YouTube.
01:14:10.470 --> 01:14:26.136
Um, so we've reformatted it just a little bit, but, um, yeah, so still running and gunning and it's not like right now it's every two weeks or so, so it's not like a weekly thing, Um, but you know we're we're still doing it and still loving it.
01:14:27.326 --> 01:14:29.832
And is the YouTube self-made web designer.
01:14:29.832 --> 01:14:31.636
Yeah, it's the same brand.
01:14:32.345 --> 01:14:36.487
Uh, yeah, all the same same, all the same thing across all channels gotcha.
01:14:36.807 --> 01:14:38.230
Oh, 25k followers.
01:14:38.251 --> 01:14:40.935
Congrats, dude yeah, man, thank you I did.
01:14:41.197 --> 01:14:45.954
I did see that you had a few videos that were like oh wow, way to go, the three skills.
01:14:45.954 --> 01:14:49.552
I remember seeing that one yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:14:49.752 --> 01:14:51.096
They just kind of popped off.
01:14:51.096 --> 01:14:52.140
I was like I don't know.
01:14:52.140 --> 01:14:58.627
I at first I started doing them and it wasn't getting anywhere and then all of a sudden it just hockey sticked and I was like, oh okay, wow, this is fun.
01:15:01.153 --> 01:15:03.237
Yeah, man, what's next do you think for self-made?
01:15:03.237 --> 01:15:06.948
Then Do you have an idea of like you know your your funnel is.
01:15:06.948 --> 01:15:08.350
Is it the Upwork course?
01:15:08.350 --> 01:15:09.894
So you think in membership one day.
01:15:09.894 --> 01:15:10.173
What do you?
01:15:10.173 --> 01:15:11.095
What's's what's next for you?
01:15:11.496 --> 01:15:25.051
yeah, you know, part of it is like self-made is kind of an arm of upwork or sorry, show it um, and so like I, you know, like I use a little bit partner with you, working them with them, right yeah.
01:15:25.110 --> 01:15:42.729
So they're like I don't get paid extra because of my channel, that I do on the side, um, but like, know, show, it has the designer community which I oversee and and that's really, you know, like I love the designer community and love that it's, it's growing and can help people out.
01:15:42.729 --> 01:15:46.828
So I'm always trying to, you know, kind of bridge the gap between those two things.
01:15:47.710 --> 01:16:05.537
We need to have a uh, unrecorded talk about this, or maybe a different episode, cause, yeah, gosh, I feel like show it could boost tremendously with you doing the self-made resources that lead into show a community or have courses about Upwork.
01:16:05.537 --> 01:16:09.015
And then when people want to build websites and get clients on Upwork, what do they use?
01:16:09.015 --> 01:16:10.649
Chris uses show it.
01:16:10.649 --> 01:16:11.310
Here's how we do it.
01:16:11.310 --> 01:16:13.729
Yeah, I know, are you feeling with Brad Hussey?
01:16:14.591 --> 01:16:15.957
Yeah, yeah, he and I are good friends.
01:16:16.519 --> 01:16:17.882
Yeah, I thought so, I thought so.
01:16:17.882 --> 01:16:19.507
You guys both have great stashes too.
01:16:19.587 --> 01:16:20.390
Maybe one day I'll.
01:16:20.409 --> 01:16:22.293
I'll join the staff.
01:16:22.293 --> 01:16:25.086
I wore a fake one for our our in-person event.
01:16:25.086 --> 01:16:33.256
We did a mock-up sales call with my friend Jason, who I mentioned, and I had a stash as his central client and I looked I've never looked more like a cop.
01:16:33.317 --> 01:16:41.786
I was like, oh my gosh, I mean I look, I like yeah.
01:16:41.786 --> 01:16:42.789
So I don't know, I don't know, chris maybe.
01:16:42.789 --> 01:16:46.061
But all that to say, I know Brad does that with Wix studio, like he has his community, but his brand partner is Wix studio.
01:16:46.061 --> 01:16:49.652
Um, yeah, I might need to talk to Divi here.
01:16:49.652 --> 01:16:52.597
Anywho, yeah, Exciting times man, exciting.
01:16:52.597 --> 01:16:57.935
You know, even in like the, the influencer coaching world, there's so many exciting opportunities to now too.
01:16:57.956 --> 01:16:59.469
So absolutely yeah.
01:16:59.469 --> 01:17:05.948
It's a lot of fun and a lot of uncertainty, but, you know, a lot of opportunity all at the same time.
01:17:07.453 --> 01:17:08.136
Heck, yeah, chris.
01:17:08.136 --> 01:17:08.899
Well, great catching up.
01:17:08.899 --> 01:17:14.096
Dude, thank you as always for your transparency, and wisdom to this point.
01:17:14.096 --> 01:17:17.653
And, man, I'm excited to see where Self Made Web Designer goes.
01:17:18.454 --> 01:17:20.018
Yeah, thanks, josh, appreciate you having me on.
01:17:21.244 --> 01:17:28.873
Big thanks to Chris for coming on and again sharing some transparency about where he's at in web design and some of his journey.
01:17:28.873 --> 01:17:32.194
I know a lot of that related to me and I'm sure, related to you as well.
01:17:32.194 --> 01:17:36.713
Again, show notes for this episode are going to be found at joshhallco slash 394.
01:17:36.713 --> 01:17:40.347
You can check Chris out at the self made web designercom.
01:17:40.347 --> 01:17:42.573
That is also the name of his podcast.
01:17:42.573 --> 01:17:47.390
God, such a good name, darn, the good branding choices he made before I did so.
01:17:47.390 --> 01:17:51.069
Go check that out, connect with Chris, let him know you heard him on the podcast.
01:17:51.069 --> 01:17:55.467
Wish him well and I feel like there was something else I was going to say.
01:17:55.467 --> 01:17:57.734
It'll probably hit me right as I stop recording.
01:17:57.734 --> 01:18:03.255
So until then, I don't know, I'll follow up and make a note on it over at joshhallco slash 394.
01:18:03.255 --> 01:18:03.796
Cheers, my friend.