Unsolved: Brittany Phillips with Perplexity Mystery Podcast

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Hey everybody, I'm Sierra.
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And I'm Ben.
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Welcome back to another episode of The Unsolved Couple, where
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every week Ben and I recap one of your original
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gateway drugs into true crime.
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Unsolved. Mysteries.
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Okay, except this week, technically. Technically. We are, well, we
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are talking about an unsolved mystery, but then I am
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talking about an unsolved mystery with my friend Kedra over
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at the Perplexity Podcast. And it is the unsolved murder
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of Brittany Phillips. So, but I thought we could chat
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for a minute before we hop on over there and then...
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Before you hop.
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Yeah.
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Ben did not join us.
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I did not. I was not invited.
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You actually weren't.
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Yeah, you weren't invited.
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I wasn't even invited.
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Girls only.
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Clearly.
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Well, how was your week, love?
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It was good.
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Good week. How was your nap this afternoon?
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I'm the one that took the nap this weekend. That's
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because I was good and I did my notes this morning.
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Because I got up early.
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Some of your notes this morning.
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Most of your notes. Like 95% of my notes this morning.
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So once we got home, that's usually when I do
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my notes in the afternoon. So I took a nap
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and it was awesome.
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Two and a half hours.
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I am a little upset. I did not want to
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nap that long.
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Yeah.
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Just nap for a little bit and then get stuff done.
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Your body needed it, apparently.
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I woke up too early, I guess.
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Mm-hmm.
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I guess so.
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But how was your week?
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Good.
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It's been crazy busy, but all in the best of ways,
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I guess. So, trucking along. It's now, you know, it's
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our two-year anniversary month, so congratulations to us. It's also
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the start of the BRRRR months, which are my favorite
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time of the year, September, October.
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Oh.
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November, December.
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I've never heard that. Really?
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No. Well, I came up with it. No one else
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has ever thought of it before.
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That's impressive. I don't believe you, but... If you want
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to claim it, I will give you all credit. I'm
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not going to claim it at all.
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Okay. Well, guys, we are.
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I thought this was really important. This is my first
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time I'm ever dropping in lieu of our regular style podcast.
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For anyone who's new here, normally Ben and I recap
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the original cases told in Unsolved Mysteries and give you
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any updates that have come out since the show aired.
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Have some fun, have some banter back and forth. But
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this week... I'm dropping the case that I technically I
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didn't even cover it. Kedra covered it and I got
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to sit in while she told the story. And it's
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a Brittany Phillips who was a young girl living on
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her own for the very first time who was found
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murdered in her bedroom. Her mother, Dr. Maggie, is a
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staple victim. at CrimeCon. I'm hoping you guys all take
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a moment to listen to the episode.
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It's really well done.
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Kendra does an amazing job breaking down the story and
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the case and the information that we have. We've got
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some great questions. And then Dr. Maggie has a couple
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of call to actions that if you are someone that
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would like to help as much as you can support
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victims' families, then you She's got a couple of call
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to actions. So make sure to check out this week's
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episode and then come back next week where Ben and
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I will, you know, go back to our original format.
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But in the meantime, if you haven't left us a
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five-star review, please do so. Make sure to follow us
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on social media on Subcouple Pod. Anything else, Ben, you
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want to add before we toss it over?
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No, ma'am.
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No, you watched this episode.
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What did you think of it?
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It was good.
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Yeah.
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Full discretion for anyone. We are normally a clean quote
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unquote podcast. We do talk about hard subjects and, you know,
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sometimes graphic things, but a couple of bad words stated.
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I drop a couple of bombs.
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I hope you're happy with that.
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I am.
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I'm happy. I'm pretty proud of who I am as
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a human being and the life that I've.
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I just want to tell you, I did watch this
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on YouTube and now my YouTube feed continues to suggest
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For the first time ever.
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True crime.
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True crime stuff.
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And how do you feel about it?
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I'm not happy about it.
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We ruined your.
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Because all my true crime feed or my YouTube feed
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was baseball stuff and mostly baseball stuff. And yeah, now
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I get this every once in a while. So I
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hope you're satisfied.
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I hope you're happy.
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I am happy.
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I'm not.
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But yeah, so if you normally listen to your kids
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in the room, this is absolutely not an episode I
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would recommend for anyone who feels uncomfortable with four-letter words.
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I would also recommend skipping this week's episode. But... Please
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join us next week because for the first time, Ben
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and I, he doesn't know this yet, at the end
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of the episode are going to talk about a movie
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that he hasn't seen yet. And then we're going to
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follow up. So the next couple of episodes are going
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to be breaking down. Ben has never seen the movie
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Practical Magic. Make sure to join us again next week
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where we will talk about Ben's guesses on Practical Magic
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and recap another episode of.
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That's All Mysteries.
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Bye.
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Imagine driving on the highway one day and seeing a
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pink and purple minivan roll past you. There are hundreds
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and hundreds of butterflies painted across the hood, and a
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beautiful young woman's photograph is on the side panel. Then
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in bold letters, running down the length of the door,
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you read the following words. Caravan to catch a killer.
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You wonder what it's for. Seated at the wheel is
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an older woman with shaggy bangs and silver blonde hair.
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She is a mother, and her name is Dr. Maggie Zingman.
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Maggie has logged hundreds of thousands of miles, determined to
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get eyes on her daughter's case. Her daughter was a
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bright and funny 18-year-old college student when she was brutally
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murdered in her Tulsa apartment in the fall of 2004.
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Her killer remains at large. Today's perplexing episode is all
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about the murder of Brittany Phillips and her mother's hard
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advocacy efforts, Dr.
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Maggie Zingman.
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Hello, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Perplexity
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and Mystery Podcast. As always, I'm your host, Kedra. If
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you're new, hello and welcome. I tell tales every single
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week that have perplexed me. So if you love a
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good mystery that leaves you wanting more, don't worry, you're
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in the right place. And if you end up enjoying
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today's episode all about Brittany Phillips, I would love if
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you continue to follow along. If you are a returning listener, hello,
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my friends and welcome back. I'm happy you're here today.
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And I'm super excited to be getting into this important
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episode with my friend Sierra from Unsolved Couple Pod.
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Hi.
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Hello.
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You want to introduce yourself? Tell everyone a little bit
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about yourself before we dive in.
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Yeah, real quick. My name is Sierra. I'm actually brand
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new to this case as well. I heard about it
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for the first time at CrimeCon when you guys introduced
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me to Dr. Maggie, and I've been really excited to
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dive into this. It's been on my to-do list. But yeah,
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I'm kind of new into the world of true crime,
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so I'm really excited to hear you share the story
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with us.
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Yeah, I'm excited to get into it. It's a very important,
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very upsetting story. And I also had the honor to
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talk to Dr. Maggie. And so I'll be splicing some
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of our interview into this episode. I also just like
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to tell people so they know I met Maggie at CrimeCon.
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She has her own booth and she is just working
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so hard to get answers for her daughter. She's also
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helping with some other families. We'll talk about that more
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towards the end of this episode. And it was just... Amazing.
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She gave me notes, a total timeline of Brittany's murder.
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And so I'm holding those up for people watching. And
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I just knew it was something that we needed to cover.
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A lot of big podcasts have talked about it. And
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Maggie really feels like podcasts are kind of the niche
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right now to hopefully help get the story out. She
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just really wants this thing solved. And I do feel
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like it's solvable.
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I'm really excited. And that's an awesome archive of stuff
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that you have, because for anyone who tells stories like this,
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facts and timelines are so important because you never know
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what's going to spark that memory for someone who's listening
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to this to remember something or to finally feel prompted
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to come forward and say something.
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Right.
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Exactly. Yeah.
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So I was very, very fortunate to get that from her.
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And we know that it's going to be, you know,
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more accurate coming from someone who is so close to
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Brittany and was there and she's doing amazing things. So
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we will dive right in to this episode and then
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we will talk more about unsolved conversations. podcast at the end,
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you guys should definitely check out their show.
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They do a great job over there.
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But for now, let's dive right into this story of
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Brittany Phillips. So Brittany Phillips was known to be fearless, outgoing,
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smart and artistic. Her blonde ringlets and deep brown eyes
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brought people in. She enjoyed dancing, gymnastics, and modeling when
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she was growing up. Brittany's parents were divorced, with her
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father living in St. Petersburg, Florida, and her mom, Maggie,
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living in Oklahoma. Brittany also grew up with a brother
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named Josh. She was a really good student. She had
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a lot of interest in science, specifically biology, chemistry, and
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she was really, really smart. She graduated high school a
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year early. She was trying to figure out what she
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wanted to do for a career. And basically what happened
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was she lost her grandmother to cancer. And because of that,
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the way Maggie explained it in our interview, she felt
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compelled to go into cancer research.
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Can you imagine also being like, oh, I'm super good
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or I like studying science?
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Right.
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I feel like all of a sudden, that's like golden
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right there. Like, okay, already she's an amazing human being
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at that age to be like, I, one, am super smart.
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I'm good at this and I'm impacted and I want
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to change what's around me and for the good. To
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be able to have that forefront at that age is something,
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I mean, I think most of us, I was worried
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that my eyeliner matched on each side, not, How could
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I change the world for the better?
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Right. Exactly.
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Yeah.
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And I mean, I think it makes sense because her mom, Maggie,
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is a trauma psychologist. She goes into prisons and works
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with people and does amazing things. So, you know, she
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came from a very smart, driven woman as well. So
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Apple didn't fall from far from the tree there. So
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she ended up getting a scholarship to Eckerd College in St. Petersburg, Florida,
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where her dad lived. So she was also really excited
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for that because she... I don't know all the details,
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of course, but she didn't get to see her dad
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a ton. They lived in Oklahoma. So she was excited
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to get to spend more time with him.
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So.
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This all comes together. She's looking forward to a new
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chapter in her life. And I just kind of think
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about when I was this age, it was such an
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exciting time. Even when I was in community college and
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still living with my parents, it was like the whole
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world is in front of me and you're kind of
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overwhelmed with choice, but it's exciting. So in August of 2003,
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Brittany left her home in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and she headed
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southeast to Florida on a full ride chemistry scholarship. Initially,
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she was really excited, but after she started living in
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another state for a while, reality started to sink in
254
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for Brittany. She was living away from everything she'd ever known.
255
00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:57.759
She's away from her friends, her mom, who was basically
256
00:12:57.799 --> 00:13:01.509
like her best friend, and she just started getting really homesick.
257
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She wasn't seeing her dad as much as she had
258
00:13:04.350 --> 00:13:08.240
hoped either. And so about a year into her being there,
259
00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:11.100
she flew home for Christmas and she told her mom
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that this wasn't working out. And she ended up flying
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00:13:14.460 --> 00:13:18.750
back and moving to do community college classes in Oklahoma
262
00:13:18.769 --> 00:13:20.710
in May of 2004.
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00:13:20.690 --> 00:13:22.809
I think so many of us can relate to this
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00:13:22.850 --> 00:13:26.769
that first time. And you guys, so I graduated in
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00:13:26.769 --> 00:13:28.710
2003 as well. So her and I are exactly the
266
00:13:28.750 --> 00:13:31.840
same age. I don't think people realize there was cell phones,
267
00:13:31.889 --> 00:13:34.259
but they weren't like what we have today. I remember
268
00:13:34.299 --> 00:13:37.379
I moved and I had 500 minutes to my name
269
00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:40.659
to call anyone. And I'd moved out of state, same thing,
270
00:13:40.740 --> 00:13:42.590
and long distance phone calls. And so you had to wait.
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You weren't just a little disconnected from your home base.
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You were so far removed. So I think so many
273
00:13:50.009 --> 00:13:53.009
of us can understand that feeling of wanting to come
274
00:13:53.029 --> 00:13:54.940
back home. And good for her mom supporting her in that.
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00:13:55.019 --> 00:13:57.740
A lot of parents, I think, would be like, Pull
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00:13:57.779 --> 00:14:00.129
yourself up by your bootstraps and get back there. And
277
00:14:00.649 --> 00:14:02.870
she was like, no, you need to come home. Then
278
00:14:02.929 --> 00:14:03.870
I support you in that.
279
00:14:04.250 --> 00:14:05.309
Yeah, exactly.
280
00:14:05.690 --> 00:14:08.929
And I'm like a firm believer in go to whatever
281
00:14:08.970 --> 00:14:10.980
college you get into and save all the money that
282
00:14:11.019 --> 00:14:14.220
you can. So she ended up going to Tulsa Community College.
283
00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:16.860
And that was great for her because she was close
284
00:14:16.899 --> 00:14:19.080
to her mom. Her brother was also going to this
285
00:14:19.299 --> 00:14:22.730
same college. So it worked out well. She was also
286
00:14:22.789 --> 00:14:25.750
working during this time at Applebee's and Cheddar's. I'm not
287
00:14:25.789 --> 00:14:28.210
sure if she was a hostess or a server. But
288
00:14:28.309 --> 00:14:32.029
according to Brittany's mom, she did experience some harassment from
289
00:14:32.090 --> 00:14:35.039
some male patrons while she was working. So more than
290
00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:38.879
likely a server. And that plays into theories later.
291
00:14:38.899 --> 00:14:39.700
Mm hmm.
292
00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:42.899
So just a few months after Brittany moves back home,
293
00:14:43.240 --> 00:14:45.700
she started living on her own. So she gets her
294
00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:48.379
own place in Oklahoma. And at this point, it's August.
295
00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:51.620
She got a one bedroom apartment at a complex known
296
00:14:51.659 --> 00:14:54.350
at the time as Glen Eagles. So this place is
297
00:14:54.370 --> 00:14:56.450
still up and running, but now it's under a different name.
298
00:14:56.769 --> 00:15:01.250
And I think different management also. So this was at
299
00:15:01.250 --> 00:15:04.250
9407 East 65th Street. And Brittany was in one of
300
00:15:04.289 --> 00:15:08.639
the end units on the second floor, 3216. So Maggie
301
00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:12.470
says they picked this apartment out after doing extensive research.
302
00:15:12.669 --> 00:15:16.090
It was considered a safe location by all reports. And
303
00:15:16.129 --> 00:15:18.610
Brittany's new place was just about an hour from Maggie's
304
00:15:18.629 --> 00:15:22.330
house in Chandler, Oklahoma. So every other weekend, Brittany would
305
00:15:22.570 --> 00:15:25.090
go see her mom. And when she wasn't visiting her,
306
00:15:25.169 --> 00:15:27.429
they were pretty much in constant contact.
307
00:15:27.970 --> 00:15:28.789
And she's 18.
308
00:15:28.789 --> 00:15:31.009
So sometimes there's a couple days where she doesn't hear
309
00:15:31.110 --> 00:15:33.509
from her or whatever. But for the most part, they
310
00:15:33.529 --> 00:15:35.240
were talking pretty regularly.
311
00:15:36.159 --> 00:15:36.360
Yeah.
312
00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:38.820
And I'm sure how many of us living on our
313
00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:40.519
own for the first time did a second or third
314
00:15:40.580 --> 00:15:44.240
story apartment because we were told that it's safer that way.
315
00:15:44.299 --> 00:15:44.460
Right.
316
00:15:44.500 --> 00:15:46.690
I mean, like every apartment had to have.
317
00:15:47.110 --> 00:15:47.289
Yeah.
318
00:15:47.450 --> 00:15:48.269
Can't be bottom floor.
319
00:15:48.990 --> 00:15:49.750
Yeah.
320
00:15:50.210 --> 00:15:50.429
Yeah.
321
00:15:50.590 --> 00:15:53.710
You're seeing this pattern where these women are doing everything
322
00:15:53.750 --> 00:15:59.259
that they can to keep themselves safe from potential predators.
323
00:15:59.279 --> 00:15:59.360
Yeah.
324
00:16:00.220 --> 00:16:01.820
I didn't even think about that, but that's a very
325
00:16:01.840 --> 00:16:04.000
good point. It was in the end. So it's kind
326
00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:06.000
of tucked away in the back and it's on that
327
00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:09.539
second floor. I live on the bottom floor. I'm like
328
00:16:09.580 --> 00:16:11.179
in the back of my complex, but I am on
329
00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:14.830
the bottom and I'm constantly kind of worried, but it's
330
00:16:14.899 --> 00:16:18.049
like for a convenience thing for me. But yeah, the
331
00:16:18.110 --> 00:16:19.950
stairs do tend to be safer.
332
00:16:19.970 --> 00:16:22.950
No, and I point this out to my husband because
333
00:16:23.500 --> 00:16:27.299
obviously him growing up in a man's world versus me
334
00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.529
growing up in a woman's perspective in the world. I
335
00:16:30.610 --> 00:16:33.330
asked him one time, like, what do you think about
336
00:16:33.350 --> 00:16:34.730
when you're walking to your car? Where do you think
337
00:16:34.769 --> 00:16:36.210
you park your car if you know you're going to
338
00:16:36.250 --> 00:16:37.610
come back and the lights are down? Like, where do
339
00:16:37.629 --> 00:16:40.750
you look for your apartment? All of these things. He's like,
340
00:16:40.929 --> 00:16:44.279
I don't know. He could not grasp the concept that
341
00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:49.940
as women, we legitimately plan our lives almost sometimes day
342
00:16:49.980 --> 00:16:54.450
by day or location by location. to keep ourselves safe
343
00:16:55.509 --> 00:17:00.240
from most of the time predatory men and that we had,
344
00:17:00.620 --> 00:17:03.500
you know, our victimology could be very basic and simple.
345
00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:06.519
And it's still like, we have to think about these
346
00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:10.130
things in our mind 24 seven. I think that's really
347
00:17:10.150 --> 00:17:12.930
important for some nice people to realize that This is
348
00:17:12.970 --> 00:17:15.549
an unforeseen weight on women. And then for something to
349
00:17:15.630 --> 00:17:18.839
still go wrong and feel like I did everything we could.
350
00:17:19.299 --> 00:17:19.579
Right.
351
00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:20.359
Exactly.
352
00:17:20.779 --> 00:17:24.240
Because women aren't the problem. That's the thing.
353
00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:25.380
It doesn't matter what we do.
354
00:17:26.529 --> 00:17:31.099
And I would think knowing Maggie and her background, too,
355
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:34.180
I'm sure she talked to Brittany about these things. And
356
00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:36.839
we do know that Brittany would regularly lock her door
357
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.940
as well. So at this point, it's mid-September, just a
358
00:17:41.009 --> 00:17:44.130
few weeks before Brittany would be murdered. she went to
359
00:17:44.170 --> 00:17:47.329
visit one of her friends named kim now kim was
360
00:17:47.410 --> 00:17:49.670
over in padre island and this is 11 and a
361
00:17:49.730 --> 00:17:52.880
half hours away but kim was really going through a
362
00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:56.400
crisis and brittany ended up staying with her for five
363
00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:01.829
days so kim had been assaulted by an ex-boyfriend and
364
00:18:01.890 --> 00:18:05.789
was needing support and We don't know a lot about this.
365
00:18:05.809 --> 00:18:09.430
We don't know who this person was, really any details there.
366
00:18:09.630 --> 00:18:12.630
But this was something that Brittany's mom brought up in
367
00:18:12.650 --> 00:18:17.579
the timeline. And I think it's relevant because it's possible. Yes,
368
00:18:17.630 --> 00:18:20.460
it's 11 and a half hours, but it's possible this
369
00:18:20.500 --> 00:18:23.880
person maybe followed Brittany back. We don't we don't really know.
370
00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:27.680
So she stays with her for five days, comes back
371
00:18:27.720 --> 00:18:31.140
to Oklahoma. And now we're going to go to Monday,
372
00:18:31.220 --> 00:18:36.369
September 27th, 2004. So on this day, it was a Monday.
373
00:18:36.789 --> 00:18:38.910
Brittany decided that she wasn't going to go to her
374
00:18:38.990 --> 00:18:41.069
night class because she hadn't been feeling well.
375
00:18:41.130 --> 00:18:42.829
She was having like some sinus issues.
376
00:18:43.589 --> 00:18:45.930
And so basically, she just felt like she should rest.
377
00:18:46.130 --> 00:18:48.740
She was on campus during the day. We know this
378
00:18:48.779 --> 00:18:51.319
for sure because she was seen by her brother, Josh,
379
00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:54.460
and the cafeteria. They talked for a while. And then
380
00:18:54.500 --> 00:18:57.119
she ended up leaving with one of her friends named Lydia.
381
00:18:58.160 --> 00:19:01.299
Brittany and Lydia took Brittany's car, so I guess she
382
00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:03.710
just wanted a friend with her, and they went to
383
00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:06.869
the urgent care in Central Tulsa at about 6 o'clock
384
00:19:07.049 --> 00:19:09.730
so that she could be seen, get medicine, get to
385
00:19:09.769 --> 00:19:14.859
feeling better. Around 8.30 p.m., Brittany called Maggie, frustrated. because
386
00:19:14.900 --> 00:19:16.960
she had been waiting at this urgent care for two
387
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:20.099
hours and still had not been seen. So Maggie was like,
388
00:19:20.140 --> 00:19:23.099
if you can push through to the weekend and make
389
00:19:23.140 --> 00:19:26.099
it here, I'll help you find a doctor. Little did
390
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.059
Brittany and Maggie know this would be their final conversation.
391
00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:32.920
Brittany then allegedly, this is where the timeline starts getting murky,
392
00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:38.319
dropped Lydia back off at her apartment near 51st and Memorial.
393
00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:40.119
And I did look this up. It's just a couple
394
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.160
miles away. It's like a five minute drive. Then she
395
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.490
went to Bank of America near her apartment at 71st
396
00:19:46.529 --> 00:19:51.400
and 169, which is another five minute drive. then back home.
397
00:19:51.940 --> 00:19:57.039
Investigators believe no one heard from Brittany after about 945 p.m.,
398
00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:00.589
but it's not clear how this information was verified. We
399
00:20:00.630 --> 00:20:04.960
don't know for certain if she was Well, we'll get
400
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:07.680
into that in a second. But timeline gets tricky.
401
00:20:07.900 --> 00:20:08.359
How do they?
402
00:20:08.559 --> 00:20:10.799
Yeah, they have to have something that nailed that time down.
403
00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:12.740
But I'd be interested to hear what it is or
404
00:20:13.460 --> 00:20:14.980
how they came up with that magic number.
405
00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:16.200
Right.
406
00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:18.099
Yeah, we'll talk about that more in a second. But
407
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:20.450
even then, it's still kind of like, I don't know
408
00:20:20.470 --> 00:20:23.049
for sure how they how they did that. But basically,
409
00:20:23.269 --> 00:20:27.339
so this was a Monday night. Tuesday comes around and
410
00:20:27.539 --> 00:20:30.259
it seems like Brittany didn't go to class that day,
411
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:32.819
but we don't know for sure because they weren't able
412
00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:37.319
to verify if attendance was taken because teachers weren't always
413
00:20:37.700 --> 00:20:40.079
strict about that. You know, some were, some were not.
414
00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:43.160
It does seem like her lack of attendance was verified
415
00:20:43.309 --> 00:20:47.009
on Wednesday, the 29th. So she definitely wasn't in classes
416
00:20:47.329 --> 00:20:47.809
on Wednesday.
417
00:20:48.589 --> 00:20:50.829
Okay, but the last verified sighting we have of her
418
00:20:50.890 --> 00:20:53.400
is her with a physical person is with her friend.
419
00:20:53.779 --> 00:20:54.759
Yeah, exactly.
420
00:20:54.779 --> 00:20:57.119
A little after leaving the urgent care and it would
421
00:20:57.140 --> 00:20:58.210
have been maybe around like 8.30.
422
00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:00.559
Okay, so even on Monday and now we're at Wednesday
423
00:21:00.619 --> 00:21:04.839
before we have verification that no one has seen her. Yeah, exactly. Okay.
424
00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:08.960
So for the next few days, Brittany's mom, Maggie, is
425
00:21:09.259 --> 00:21:11.880
trying to check in with her, but Brittany's not answering
426
00:21:11.900 --> 00:21:16.210
her phone. Initially, Maggie wasn't concerned because she knew Brittany
427
00:21:16.250 --> 00:21:19.150
had classes. She's 18. Sometimes a couple of days goes
428
00:21:19.210 --> 00:21:22.369
by and they don't talk to each other. But by Tuesday,
429
00:21:22.549 --> 00:21:26.200
Maggie was leaving voicemails saying things like, I know you're OK,
430
00:21:26.500 --> 00:21:30.599
but please call me. So on Thursday, September 30th. So
431
00:21:30.619 --> 00:21:32.859
at this point, it's been a couple of days. No
432
00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:36.289
one had heard from Brittany. And so Lydia, that friend
433
00:21:36.309 --> 00:21:38.589
that had been at the urgent care with her, stopped
434
00:21:38.650 --> 00:21:42.490
by Brittany's apartment after she got out of class. She
435
00:21:42.569 --> 00:21:45.730
found Brittany's lights were on and the window was open.
436
00:21:47.029 --> 00:21:50.329
So Lydia starts knocking. No one answers the door.
437
00:21:50.390 --> 00:21:53.839
Did she have air conditioning? Do you know?
438
00:21:54.160 --> 00:21:54.920
That's a good question.
439
00:21:55.769 --> 00:21:59.099
Yeah, I'd be interested. And at that time, luxury, you
440
00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:00.299
would have had air conditioning.
441
00:22:00.819 --> 00:22:01.079
Right.
442
00:22:01.099 --> 00:22:04.009
Probably some places, but I would be interested to see
443
00:22:04.049 --> 00:22:05.809
if that was a common habit of hers to leave
444
00:22:06.009 --> 00:22:08.250
a window open in the summertime.
445
00:22:09.049 --> 00:22:13.319
Yeah, I mean, it being Oklahoma, it gets really hot.
446
00:22:13.339 --> 00:22:16.960
And this would be, yeah, the summer. So I would
447
00:22:17.000 --> 00:22:20.220
be surprised if they did not have some type of
448
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:23.660
at least like box unit. But yeah, that's a good point.
449
00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:26.960
Because if the windows open, then, you know, did she
450
00:22:27.019 --> 00:22:29.319
normally leave her window open? Or is that how someone
451
00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:29.839
got in?
452
00:22:30.259 --> 00:22:33.579
Yeah, exactly. And then did, why did Lydia go over
453
00:22:33.619 --> 00:22:35.539
and check? Was she concerned because she hadn't gotten a
454
00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:38.339
hold of her? Or had Maggie gotten in touch? with
455
00:22:38.380 --> 00:22:39.849
her friend to see if she could stop by I.
456
00:22:40.049 --> 00:22:42.650
Don't even think Maggie's like alarm bells were going off
457
00:22:42.670 --> 00:22:46.410
at this point but because Lydia hadn't heard from her
458
00:22:46.470 --> 00:22:47.690
for a few days and it seems like they were
459
00:22:47.730 --> 00:22:51.680
pretty close friends I think she just went unprompted to go.
460
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:53.420
Yeah last year she was sick so she's probably like
461
00:22:53.460 --> 00:22:56.440
my friend's probably on the floor miserable I can stop
462
00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:58.160
by and see if she needs anything okay right.
463
00:22:58.059 --> 00:23:01.589
That makes sense yeah okay so she's knocking nobody's answering
464
00:23:02.069 --> 00:23:05.369
So it's her best friend. So she jiggles the doorknob
465
00:23:05.569 --> 00:23:09.789
and she finds that the door is unlocked. Not normal
466
00:23:09.869 --> 00:23:13.589
for Brittany. So Lydia felt like something wasn't right. And
467
00:23:13.630 --> 00:23:16.430
she's scared. She doesn't want to go in the apartment.
468
00:23:17.430 --> 00:23:20.109
So she ended up calling her dad, who was actually
469
00:23:20.210 --> 00:23:24.769
a former district attorney in North County. So Lydia's dad
470
00:23:25.630 --> 00:23:28.750
basically says, if you want my advice, you should call
471
00:23:28.809 --> 00:23:32.200
the Tulsa police to do a welfare check. So that's
472
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:35.519
what Lydia did. And police would arrive at this point.
473
00:23:36.019 --> 00:23:40.119
It is just shy of 10 p.m. They would find
474
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:48.029
Brittany inside, deceased at 9.59. Around 1 a.m., a Lincoln
475
00:23:48.089 --> 00:23:52.369
County sheriff officer knocked on Maggie's door at her home
476
00:23:52.430 --> 00:23:55.640
in Chandler. The sheriff asked, are you Maggie Zingman?
477
00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:57.599
She said, yeah, I am.
478
00:23:57.619 --> 00:23:58.630
You know, what's going on?
479
00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:02.000
He handed her a paper and said, you need to
480
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:05.369
call this detective. Your daughter's been murdered. And then he left.
481
00:24:06.109 --> 00:24:08.529
So that's how Maggie found out that her daughter had
482
00:24:08.549 --> 00:24:09.049
been murdered.
483
00:24:09.069 --> 00:24:12.390
Yeah.
484
00:24:13.450 --> 00:24:13.869
Yeah.
485
00:24:14.450 --> 00:24:17.069
I'm always like, why did you take an oath to
486
00:24:18.329 --> 00:24:21.150
be in law enforcement if you cannot at the very
487
00:24:21.230 --> 00:24:24.559
basic have human decency to treat other people the way
488
00:24:24.579 --> 00:24:27.000
you would want yourself or your mother or your sister
489
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:31.220
or your loved one to be treated? What a terrible thing.
490
00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:34.039
And that's the way that Maggie described it. And she's
491
00:24:34.059 --> 00:24:37.279
talked about it in multiple interviews. So clearly it scarred
492
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:40.119
her and stayed with her. It seems like this was
493
00:24:40.980 --> 00:24:43.839
not a great way, you know, to deliver this news.
494
00:24:43.900 --> 00:24:45.160
It's extremely painful.
495
00:24:46.359 --> 00:24:49.920
Unexpected and so now she's in panic mode because she's
496
00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:53.400
an hour away from where britney's apartment is so of
497
00:24:53.460 --> 00:24:55.859
course she starts rushing over there trying to figure out
498
00:24:55.900 --> 00:24:59.920
what's going on calling people so let's flash over to
499
00:25:00.029 --> 00:25:03.890
the scene so britney was found on the floor they
500
00:25:03.910 --> 00:25:07.490
confirmed it was britney with her driver's license her pants
501
00:25:07.529 --> 00:25:10.210
were lying next to her The police believed there was
502
00:25:10.309 --> 00:25:13.190
evidence of a struggle in the bedroom, and based on
503
00:25:13.289 --> 00:25:16.269
marks on the wall, they believed the attacker had flung
504
00:25:16.349 --> 00:25:17.730
Brittany against the wall.
505
00:25:18.029 --> 00:25:19.849
The apartment was also in disarray.
506
00:25:20.430 --> 00:25:23.190
It may have been ransacked, but Maggie also later said
507
00:25:23.230 --> 00:25:25.490
when she looked at it, it just seemed like her
508
00:25:25.589 --> 00:25:29.690
messy daughter. The apartment had four windows, and all the
509
00:25:29.730 --> 00:25:33.210
window screens had been removed and were found inside of
510
00:25:33.250 --> 00:25:36.630
the apartment. So it's kind of a weird detail, but
511
00:25:36.650 --> 00:25:38.549
I wanted to bring it up. So it's like, was
512
00:25:38.589 --> 00:25:41.069
she cleaning them? Like, I don't know why all the
513
00:25:41.109 --> 00:25:42.089
screens would be removed.
514
00:25:42.190 --> 00:25:43.069
Maggie. Yeah.
515
00:25:43.170 --> 00:25:47.890
Acknowledge that her daughter is messy. Like, okay, fair. You,
516
00:25:48.190 --> 00:25:51.250
if you came into my house on an unannounced visit,
517
00:25:51.549 --> 00:25:54.349
you're going to think the same thing from time to time.
518
00:25:54.869 --> 00:25:58.089
Cleaning your screens, especially at an apartment, you don't own
519
00:25:58.130 --> 00:26:01.289
these screens. That is like an OCD level of clean.
520
00:26:01.309 --> 00:26:03.369
There's no, I cannot think of any way, shape or
521
00:26:03.410 --> 00:26:06.160
form why someone would do that.
522
00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:06.640
Right.
523
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:08.500
I've never done that. And I feel like I'm a
524
00:26:08.579 --> 00:26:09.940
pretty clean person.
525
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:12.119
The only other thing that I was wondering, because it's
526
00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:14.259
all four of the screens, I don't think this is
527
00:26:14.299 --> 00:26:17.509
something like an intruder would have done is maybe there
528
00:26:17.529 --> 00:26:20.069
was some type of maintenance or work order going on.
529
00:26:20.190 --> 00:26:21.769
And so they were replacing them.
530
00:26:22.009 --> 00:26:23.589
Replacing them. We don't know.
531
00:26:23.609 --> 00:26:24.349
Yeah.
532
00:26:24.769 --> 00:26:27.369
And if they were replacing them, if something had been damaged,
533
00:26:27.490 --> 00:26:29.559
could that have been an entry point?
534
00:26:30.450 --> 00:26:31.799
Just a question mark there.
535
00:26:31.819 --> 00:26:34.480
Yeah, is this a one bedroom or a studio?
536
00:26:35.539 --> 00:26:36.900
They just said one bedroom.
537
00:26:37.660 --> 00:26:37.940
Okay.
538
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:39.799
Yeah, that's a good question.
539
00:26:39.819 --> 00:26:41.160
I don't know if it's a studio because if it's
540
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:43.740
a studio, then more open concept.
541
00:26:43.849 --> 00:26:45.230
There's not necessarily a door.
542
00:26:46.170 --> 00:26:49.849
Now, they so Maggie did mention when we were talking,
543
00:26:49.890 --> 00:26:53.970
there was some type of like French door in the apartment.
544
00:26:54.509 --> 00:26:56.509
And when Maggie because she did end up getting to
545
00:26:56.549 --> 00:26:58.750
the apartment and like looking around and stuff when she
546
00:26:58.789 --> 00:27:01.269
was cleared to go in. When Maggie looked at these
547
00:27:01.329 --> 00:27:03.799
French doors, she did say it seemed like the top
548
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:06.680
had been kind of damaged, but she wasn't sure if
549
00:27:06.759 --> 00:27:11.339
it had been like that before. It wasn't like obviously
550
00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:12.420
broken or something.
551
00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:13.359
And she also.
552
00:27:13.380 --> 00:27:15.460
But almost like someone tried to like slam it shut.
553
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:19.539
Like maybe she was trying to guard herself in that room.
554
00:27:19.579 --> 00:27:19.700
Maybe.
555
00:27:20.140 --> 00:27:20.400
Maybe.
556
00:27:21.269 --> 00:27:24.089
Maybe she also told me when we were talking that
557
00:27:24.130 --> 00:27:27.000
there was a time that there was this guy who
558
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:29.680
was friends with Brittany and Brittany had basically gotten locked
559
00:27:29.819 --> 00:27:33.359
out of the apartment. And the guy was able to
560
00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:38.380
get into the apartment using the French doors is my understanding.
561
00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:39.490
Right.
562
00:27:39.789 --> 00:27:41.809
And they did end up looking at him later as
563
00:27:41.849 --> 00:27:44.190
a suspect. They looked at a lot of suspects.
564
00:27:44.309 --> 00:27:49.630
In the bedroom. There were. French doors. The French doors
565
00:27:50.069 --> 00:27:54.230
back then, they weren't that lockable. And I know they
566
00:27:54.250 --> 00:27:58.390
weren't that lockable because they were very flimsy. And Brittany
567
00:27:58.529 --> 00:28:01.539
once told me, I call her Brittany, she once told
568
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.460
me that she locked herself out of the apartment. And
569
00:28:05.500 --> 00:28:08.039
so she had to get a six foot two friend which,
570
00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:11.259
of course, we looked at as a suspect, to hike
571
00:28:11.299 --> 00:28:14.970
himself up on that porch and jimmy the door to
572
00:28:15.009 --> 00:28:18.950
get in. When I was cleaning up her apartment, I
573
00:28:18.990 --> 00:28:22.569
remember sitting out on the patio and looking at the
574
00:28:22.630 --> 00:28:26.400
doors and had little wood lattices that are crisscrossed. Sure.
575
00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:30.220
And thinking the ones on one side looked a little
576
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.339
bit bowed. And I thought, were they always bowed? I'll
577
00:28:33.380 --> 00:28:35.240
have to ask Brittany. And it was one of the
578
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:38.059
first times that I went, I can't ask her.
579
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:43.180
But yeah, the entryway, police were never able to determine
580
00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:45.160
like how the killer got in.
581
00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:47.789
How this person got in. But it does not appear
582
00:28:48.329 --> 00:28:51.049
that she was either expecting company or that maybe she
583
00:28:51.109 --> 00:28:53.529
willingly let someone in like we've seen in other cases.
584
00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:57.279
cases where maybe there was two glasses on the counter
585
00:28:57.539 --> 00:28:59.920
or it appears that there was a social visit or
586
00:28:59.960 --> 00:29:02.099
she opened the door and let someone in willingly. It
587
00:29:02.180 --> 00:29:05.740
seemed more like it was a little bit chaotic. Also,
588
00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:08.140
like with the open window and stuff like that.
589
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:08.980
It seems.
590
00:29:09.539 --> 00:29:10.180
Yeah. Yeah.
591
00:29:10.220 --> 00:29:12.619
I mean, if she wasn't feeling good, I doubt she
592
00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:15.289
was expecting someone. And then we also know from cell
593
00:29:15.309 --> 00:29:19.490
phone pings that she wasn't calling anybody. I don't know
594
00:29:19.529 --> 00:29:21.789
if they looked at like the text messages or things
595
00:29:21.849 --> 00:29:25.559
like that. But, you know, she wasn't It doesn't seem
596
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:29.960
like she was expecting anybody. Semen and blood from an
597
00:29:30.140 --> 00:29:34.410
unknown person were found at the scene with the semen
598
00:29:34.430 --> 00:29:37.640
being found in Brittany's bed sheets and a small amount
599
00:29:37.660 --> 00:29:41.319
of blood. We're talking a drop of blood was found
600
00:29:41.500 --> 00:29:44.940
on a small hallway wall or the bedroom wall, depending
601
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:48.140
on the sources you read. It was later determined the
602
00:29:48.220 --> 00:29:52.250
semen and blood were from the same person. So what
603
00:29:52.269 --> 00:29:55.049
would you be thinking at this point? What was her
604
00:29:55.109 --> 00:29:57.970
manner of death? So we haven't talked about that yet.
605
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:03.519
But so with what you have so far, like her
606
00:30:03.579 --> 00:30:06.529
pants are found next to her. She's partially clothed. There's
607
00:30:06.609 --> 00:30:09.750
semen in the bed. There's a small drop of blood outside.
608
00:30:10.089 --> 00:30:12.589
It's from the same person. What would you be thinking?
609
00:30:12.609 --> 00:30:16.089
That she was sexually assaulted and possibly fought back. So
610
00:30:16.170 --> 00:30:19.150
he maybe had a scratch. Maybe, you know, she grabbed
611
00:30:19.170 --> 00:30:21.849
him or, you know, or did something. That would be
612
00:30:21.990 --> 00:30:22.849
my conclusion.
613
00:30:23.269 --> 00:30:24.150
Right, exactly.
614
00:30:24.259 --> 00:30:26.619
Something like really common that we would think.
615
00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:26.920
Mm-hmm.
616
00:30:28.400 --> 00:30:34.920
Problem is that seems to be what led police to
617
00:30:35.069 --> 00:30:39.089
ultimately have tunnel vision. They really locked in on this
618
00:30:39.349 --> 00:30:41.650
semen being in the bed, this one drop of blood
619
00:30:41.670 --> 00:30:43.609
being in the bed. They're from the same person must
620
00:30:43.650 --> 00:30:47.049
be from the killer, which again, very logical thing. I
621
00:30:47.099 --> 00:30:49.500
would think that as well. I also first thought that
622
00:30:49.539 --> 00:30:51.039
when I was reading through these notes, it was like,
623
00:30:51.140 --> 00:30:52.900
Oh my God, how have they not caught this person?
624
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:57.660
But yeah, You have to look at every possibility. And
625
00:30:57.700 --> 00:30:58.319
it seems like.
626
00:30:58.339 --> 00:31:01.960
You cannot eliminate things until you've eliminated them, which means
627
00:31:02.140 --> 00:31:04.960
there's a world where she had an intimate partner that
628
00:31:05.460 --> 00:31:09.119
she was consensually sleeping with. And there just happened. I mean,
629
00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:13.380
she is living on her own. She's allowed to have,
630
00:31:13.819 --> 00:31:17.089
you know, partners come over and spend time with her.
631
00:31:17.829 --> 00:31:18.109
Right.
632
00:31:18.460 --> 00:31:22.230
And so I'm sourcing that DNA is going to be
633
00:31:22.250 --> 00:31:25.720
important to find out from that person if this was
634
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:28.400
a relationship or was this not, but to get tunnel
635
00:31:28.420 --> 00:31:30.720
vision that it was only one or the other without
636
00:31:31.339 --> 00:31:35.359
any other piece of evidence to eliminate A or B,
637
00:31:35.500 --> 00:31:36.660
you have to keep them all open.
638
00:31:37.289 --> 00:31:37.710
Exactly.
639
00:31:38.309 --> 00:31:42.069
Unfortunately, there were no cameras at the complex either, except
640
00:31:42.130 --> 00:31:46.950
for one. And this camera erased every 24 hours. And
641
00:31:47.029 --> 00:31:50.970
she was found, you know, days later. Later, so it
642
00:31:51.009 --> 00:31:52.609
doesn't seem like they could get anything.
643
00:31:52.730 --> 00:31:53.410
I don't know.
644
00:31:53.430 --> 00:31:55.990
I would hope that they checked this camera footage, but
645
00:31:56.069 --> 00:31:59.230
that was something that was mentioned as well. So Maggie's
646
00:31:59.329 --> 00:32:03.289
obviously beside herself. I can't imagine going through something like this.
647
00:32:03.609 --> 00:32:05.130
And when she gets to the scene.
648
00:32:05.210 --> 00:32:09.440
She finds that Brittany's body has already been sent to
649
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:12.680
the medical examiner. So it's only been a couple hours
650
00:32:12.740 --> 00:32:15.599
at this point since she was initially found. So I
651
00:32:15.619 --> 00:32:16.900
feel like that's a little fast.
652
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:21.200
Yeah, you would... Preserving evidence at the scene would be
653
00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:25.339
super important, including photographs. Did they take pictures of the
654
00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:28.039
scene and all of that? That seems really rushed to
655
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:32.049
get the body out of the house. Was that standard
656
00:32:32.109 --> 00:32:34.289
protocol on their part?
657
00:32:34.630 --> 00:32:34.990
Right.
658
00:32:35.150 --> 00:32:37.950
Again, like things that I'm questioning. I know that they
659
00:32:37.990 --> 00:32:42.039
did take swabs from Brittany's body and like collected forensics
660
00:32:42.099 --> 00:32:44.160
from the scene. But it does just seem like they
661
00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:46.640
got her out kind of fast. So just a just
662
00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:50.700
a couple hours later. And other thing that I thought
663
00:32:50.740 --> 00:32:54.079
was really weird, this could be totally nothing, but it
664
00:32:54.220 --> 00:32:58.380
is concerning and something that the apartments, I hope they fixed.
665
00:32:59.109 --> 00:33:02.730
So there was a shared attic space in the unit
666
00:33:03.329 --> 00:33:07.349
that multiple units could have access to, as well as
667
00:33:07.410 --> 00:33:12.309
maintenance people and other apartment personnel and construction workers. One
668
00:33:12.329 --> 00:33:15.910
of the entry points to this attic space was directly
669
00:33:16.049 --> 00:33:21.049
above Brittany's closet. It was not securely locked, which could
670
00:33:21.190 --> 00:33:25.160
theoretically allow people to enter as many as seven units,
671
00:33:25.859 --> 00:33:29.539
including Brittany's. Now, police did go up there and look
672
00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:32.099
and they said there was no evidence of anyone having
673
00:33:32.140 --> 00:33:36.960
been up there. But that could potentially be an entry point.
674
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:42.119
Have you ever watched any of the true crime? I
675
00:33:42.140 --> 00:33:43.900
guess they're TV shows about frogging.
676
00:33:44.369 --> 00:33:47.529
Yes, I've done two episodes on frogging as well.
677
00:33:48.049 --> 00:33:50.789
It's terrifying to think that that and not even to
678
00:33:50.849 --> 00:33:53.789
disclose that to you see a young girl moving into
679
00:33:53.809 --> 00:33:56.829
your apartment complex with the manager and you can't say, hey,
680
00:33:56.890 --> 00:34:00.309
by the way, you might want to put a board
681
00:34:00.369 --> 00:34:02.150
over that or something. How terrifying.
682
00:34:02.210 --> 00:34:02.470
Yeah.
683
00:34:02.769 --> 00:34:04.609
Then there's going to be no evidence that anyone was
684
00:34:04.650 --> 00:34:06.730
in or out because how do you track that?
685
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:10.320
Maggie told me the story about how she found out
686
00:34:10.380 --> 00:34:13.940
about this attic space. And it was very chilling the
687
00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:16.760
way she explained it. So she basically was saying that
688
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:19.670
she was walking around the apartment with the lead detective.
689
00:34:20.230 --> 00:34:23.570
And the lead detective brought her into Brittany's closet. And
690
00:34:23.610 --> 00:34:25.929
he goes, have you seen this? And she was like,
691
00:34:25.969 --> 00:34:29.570
seen what? And he points up. And all he did
692
00:34:29.590 --> 00:34:33.630
was like, push the top of the closet. And it's
693
00:34:33.670 --> 00:34:37.610
basically just this small space, but something that a person.
694
00:34:37.289 --> 00:34:40.309
Could easily get through. And it was just open.
695
00:34:41.469 --> 00:34:41.730
Yeah.
696
00:34:41.789 --> 00:34:45.539
And it again, it led to other units. So, you know,
697
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:48.880
we have to look at maintenance workers, construction workers, other
698
00:34:48.940 --> 00:34:50.300
people who lived in the building.
699
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:52.900
What if there had been a maintenance worker and they're
700
00:34:52.940 --> 00:34:54.380
replacing screens?
701
00:34:54.820 --> 00:34:56.550
Right. Exactly.
702
00:34:56.570 --> 00:34:58.369
And they know about this.
703
00:34:58.389 --> 00:34:59.210
Mm hmm.
704
00:35:00.110 --> 00:35:02.989
It makes you wonder, and no one from the apartment complex,
705
00:35:03.010 --> 00:35:07.170
were they ever interviewed to find out why, maybe if
706
00:35:07.230 --> 00:35:11.710
they had, if any maintenance, because everything's, from my understanding,
707
00:35:11.730 --> 00:35:14.429
an apartment has to be filed with paperwork because it
708
00:35:14.570 --> 00:35:17.309
comes out of some sort of expense or a work order.
709
00:35:17.929 --> 00:35:20.130
Do we know if the police ever looked into work
710
00:35:20.230 --> 00:35:22.969
orders or anything like that around her apartment complex?
711
00:35:22.989 --> 00:35:23.059
Yes.
712
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:24.280
That's a good point.
713
00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:25.559
Or her unit specifically?
714
00:35:26.260 --> 00:35:29.739
Work orders, I don't know. That's a good point. And
715
00:35:29.860 --> 00:35:31.880
I know that Maggie's going to listen to this too.
716
00:35:32.019 --> 00:35:34.510
So Maggie, let us know. I know that they interviewed
717
00:35:34.550 --> 00:35:39.610
a ton of people, including apartment personnel, maintenance people, other tenants,
718
00:35:39.670 --> 00:35:40.389
stuff like that.
719
00:35:40.730 --> 00:35:43.809
Jeff was asking me questions about the apartment. And then
720
00:35:43.849 --> 00:35:48.380
he went into the closet, which was typical, pretty messy.
721
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:52.409
And he said... does this look like somebody's been through here?
722
00:35:52.429 --> 00:35:54.730
And I said, I don't know, but she's always messy.
723
00:35:54.909 --> 00:35:57.650
And so after that, he said, were you aware of this?
724
00:35:57.809 --> 00:36:01.630
And he points up and I go, what? And then he,
725
00:36:01.710 --> 00:36:07.119
because he's so tall, lifts up and can pull himself
726
00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:10.719
up into there. And when he went up in there
727
00:36:11.079 --> 00:36:14.380
and I was able to look briefly, but a young
728
00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:17.659
kid who was part of a criminal justice class actually
729
00:36:18.260 --> 00:36:21.860
went up there and I think took some pictures. But
730
00:36:21.929 --> 00:36:26.369
from what I remember is right then in 04, that
731
00:36:26.489 --> 00:36:30.980
shared attic space didn't have blocks between the four apartments.
732
00:36:31.019 --> 00:36:33.860
So you have two apartments in the front and two
733
00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:36.880
apartments in the back. Gritty was in the back. But
734
00:36:37.059 --> 00:36:40.510
all four of those apartments had the square in the
735
00:36:40.570 --> 00:36:44.630
closet to get up in there. So that means public service,
736
00:36:44.809 --> 00:36:50.170
wire layers, telephone, because in 2004, not everybody had the
737
00:36:50.409 --> 00:36:55.320
cell phones yet. And then two, if you look at
738
00:36:55.619 --> 00:36:58.699
the outside of the building, both front and back, both
739
00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:01.500
of them had steps that went up like this. Then
740
00:37:01.539 --> 00:37:03.619
they went around the curve and then they went up
741
00:37:03.659 --> 00:37:07.179
to the second. You could stand. on the railing of
742
00:37:07.340 --> 00:37:12.670
those steps going up to the upper apartments and hike
743
00:37:12.710 --> 00:37:17.110
yourself up on the attic. And I'm pretty sure there
744
00:37:17.130 --> 00:37:18.849
was some access up there.
745
00:37:19.010 --> 00:37:20.769
So the apartments are still there.
746
00:37:20.949 --> 00:37:24.110
Yes, but they were able to go in and look around.
747
00:37:24.130 --> 00:37:27.349
And I'm not sure, but I think they saw in
748
00:37:27.389 --> 00:37:32.050
that one that now there are barriers up in between.
749
00:37:32.349 --> 00:37:36.269
But as far as I know, There weren't back then.
750
00:37:36.329 --> 00:37:39.289
And even if they were, people could have climbed over them.
751
00:37:39.369 --> 00:37:42.170
So I know they looked for evidence because one of
752
00:37:42.190 --> 00:37:46.010
the ideas was he could have been waiting for her.
753
00:37:46.429 --> 00:37:50.159
So let's go to the medical examiner's report and talk
754
00:37:50.179 --> 00:37:52.380
a little bit more about the cause of death and
755
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:53.000
things like that.
756
00:37:53.099 --> 00:37:56.440
So Dr. Sibley was the medical examiner.
757
00:37:56.699 --> 00:37:56.960
Dr.
758
00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:59.780
Sibley did go to the scene as well to look
759
00:37:59.820 --> 00:38:01.579
at Brittany before they brought her out.
760
00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:02.840
So Dr.
761
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:06.340
Sibley mentioned in their report that Brittany's bedroom door, which
762
00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:09.960
led to an outdoor balcony, was open. But it's not
763
00:38:10.019 --> 00:38:12.679
clear if this was because the police had opened it
764
00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:15.099
to like air things out or if it was found
765
00:38:15.139 --> 00:38:19.949
that way. A used dried tampon was also found near
766
00:38:19.989 --> 00:38:24.289
Brittany's body. Her face was congested and purple. There were
767
00:38:24.329 --> 00:38:28.590
numerous towels on her. Rigor mortis was minimal. She had
768
00:38:28.750 --> 00:38:33.570
mild decomposition and abrasions were found on her neck, indicative
769
00:38:33.610 --> 00:38:37.039
of strangulation. There were signs of sexual assault and the
770
00:38:37.079 --> 00:38:41.420
cause of death was either strangulation or suffocation. Hemorrhaging was
771
00:38:41.460 --> 00:38:44.639
found around her eyes. The lack of ligature marks and
772
00:38:44.699 --> 00:38:47.909
her hyoid bone being intact made it most likely that
773
00:38:47.929 --> 00:38:50.690
she had been suffocated with either a pillow or with
774
00:38:50.750 --> 00:38:52.130
a hand over her face.
775
00:38:53.090 --> 00:38:54.730
Her toxicology report was clean.
776
00:38:55.329 --> 00:38:58.820
Was she on her cycle or her period at the
777
00:38:59.019 --> 00:39:00.539
time of her death?
778
00:39:02.389 --> 00:39:03.030
I don't know.
779
00:39:03.050 --> 00:39:06.469
I would think because of the dried tampon being found next.
780
00:39:06.230 --> 00:39:06.719
To her, but....
781
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:09.920
That's all I know about that.
782
00:39:09.940 --> 00:39:12.139
Because girls don't take their tampons out in their bedrooms
783
00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:14.179
and throw them to the side. But that seems to
784
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:18.119
me like a possibility where an angry person who was
785
00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:22.250
maybe planning on sexually assaulting somebody, because we've heard it
786
00:39:22.289 --> 00:39:24.889
from other... I can't think of the guy off the
787
00:39:24.909 --> 00:39:29.150
top of my head, but he was convicted of assaulting
788
00:39:29.190 --> 00:39:32.019
many women and he ended up brutally like murdering the
789
00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:33.880
women that he found out were on their periods when
790
00:39:33.920 --> 00:39:36.619
he went to assault them because he was disgusted with
791
00:39:36.659 --> 00:39:38.900
them because they were on their periods and they like
792
00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:40.539
ruined it for him so then it was of course
793
00:39:40.619 --> 00:39:46.219
their fault and I wonder if there is a world
794
00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:50.300
where the end of that string could be looked at
795
00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:53.250
or tested for any sort of, oh my gosh, I'm
796
00:39:53.269 --> 00:39:55.570
so sorry, I dropped my phone, trace DNA or anything
797
00:39:55.590 --> 00:40:00.050
at all like that because women do not discard their
798
00:40:00.070 --> 00:40:00.889
tampons that way.
799
00:40:01.369 --> 00:40:03.179
Right, yeah, there were some sources.
800
00:40:03.260 --> 00:40:05.599
I can't remember where I was reading this, but it
801
00:40:05.619 --> 00:40:07.780
might've just been some online theories where someone was like,
802
00:40:08.159 --> 00:40:10.019
could the tampon have just like fallen out?
803
00:40:10.099 --> 00:40:10.780
And I was like, what?
804
00:40:10.800 --> 00:40:10.860
No.
805
00:40:12.710 --> 00:40:14.489
No, they don't just do that.
806
00:40:14.590 --> 00:40:15.989
It works. Right.
807
00:40:16.050 --> 00:40:17.269
Yeah, no, exactly.
808
00:40:17.449 --> 00:40:20.449
I feel like what makes the most sense is the
809
00:40:20.710 --> 00:40:24.809
killer removed it or it fell out of the trash somehow.
810
00:40:24.929 --> 00:40:26.829
If it was in like a total disarray from like
811
00:40:26.949 --> 00:40:29.309
a struggle. Those are the two scenarios that make the
812
00:40:29.349 --> 00:40:32.750
most sense to me. But there were several glaring issues
813
00:40:32.869 --> 00:40:36.659
with Dr. Sibley's report. There was no mention of Brittany's
814
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:40.320
body temperature. And it was noted that the food that
815
00:40:40.380 --> 00:40:44.219
Brittany had eaten looked recently digested. So one of the
816
00:40:44.239 --> 00:40:47.719
other things I've been researching this week, and it's not
817
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:52.329
the most accurate scientific method, but one of the ways
818
00:40:52.349 --> 00:40:54.849
that they'll help determine cause of death is through body
819
00:40:54.889 --> 00:40:57.809
temperature and food digestion. And with the food digestion, the
820
00:40:57.869 --> 00:41:02.710
general consensus is if something looks like it's been recently digested,
821
00:41:02.730 --> 00:41:06.670
we're talking she died within like a few hours.
822
00:41:08.980 --> 00:41:12.400
So they found her Thursday.
823
00:41:11.619 --> 00:41:14.500
Or Thursday night, early Friday morning.
824
00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:16.119
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
825
00:41:16.599 --> 00:41:20.780
So this is where timeline gets really confusing because we're
826
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:24.880
saying her last sighting was Monday. We find her Thursday
827
00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:30.750
and she's not apparently talking to people or being seen Tuesday, Wednesday,
828
00:41:30.829 --> 00:41:34.309
but she wasn't killed possibly until Thursday.
829
00:41:34.730 --> 00:41:35.829
But yeah, Dr.
830
00:41:35.869 --> 00:41:38.789
Sibley made a different determination. So there's a lot of
831
00:41:38.849 --> 00:41:42.510
confusion of like, when did this happen? 70 swabs had
832
00:41:42.550 --> 00:41:46.480
been collected from Brittany's body, including underneath her fingernails, which
833
00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:49.199
we're going to talk more about later. According to the
834
00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:52.659
lead detective, all these swabs were collected and analyzed, but
835
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:56.530
those swabs were not mentioned in the medical examiner's report.
836
00:41:56.909 --> 00:41:59.090
So that was another issue that they found with Dr.
837
00:41:59.130 --> 00:42:02.650
Sibley's report. Maggie was also told her daughter was raped
838
00:42:02.809 --> 00:42:06.590
before she was killed, but Dr. Sibley's report makes no
839
00:42:06.659 --> 00:42:08.980
mention of a rape kit being done.
840
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:11.400
Yeah, because there was semen found on the bed, but
841
00:42:11.460 --> 00:42:13.699
did they do a vaginal swab?
842
00:42:14.460 --> 00:42:14.900
Exactly.
843
00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:15.590
We don't know.
844
00:42:16.639 --> 00:42:18.380
How was that cause of, yeah, how.
845
00:42:18.300 --> 00:42:21.239
Can you note sexual assault and not do a swab?
846
00:42:21.610 --> 00:42:24.969
Part of what's really difficult about this is that the,
847
00:42:25.130 --> 00:42:26.590
and I'm just going to put it in the words
848
00:42:26.630 --> 00:42:30.309
that Maggie put it in, the police chief, the prime
849
00:42:30.349 --> 00:42:32.489
detective that she was working really close with, he no
850
00:42:32.530 --> 00:42:36.269
longer works there. The Tulsa PD is now under a
851
00:42:36.320 --> 00:42:40.599
new chief and that chief is not talking to Maggie
852
00:42:41.420 --> 00:42:45.199
and they are not open to having other cold case
853
00:42:45.300 --> 00:42:49.550
units look at Brittany's case. They don't want outsider help.
854
00:42:50.190 --> 00:42:53.289
So we don't know a lot of things, in my opinion,
855
00:42:53.409 --> 00:42:57.400
because Maggie doesn't have a lot of information because she's
856
00:42:57.420 --> 00:42:58.260
getting stonewalled.
857
00:42:58.619 --> 00:43:02.880
When my best detective, Jeff Felton, left, he's not been
858
00:43:02.920 --> 00:43:06.539
allowed access back to the files. He can answer a
859
00:43:06.579 --> 00:43:09.239
lot of questions and I still communicate with them every month.
860
00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:13.000
They won't allow any of the old retired detectives or
861
00:43:13.059 --> 00:43:16.659
the retired heads of homicide to go back and review
862
00:43:16.699 --> 00:43:20.820
the case file. They won't allow anybody like the sheriff
863
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:24.710
who was my detective for years One year before he
864
00:43:24.750 --> 00:43:27.639
became head sheriff, they won't allow his cold case task
865
00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:31.699
force to review the files. So some of these descriptions
866
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:35.579
may be a little bit off because we can't get
867
00:43:35.619 --> 00:43:39.469
back to access to the files. And the current cold
868
00:43:39.510 --> 00:43:45.210
case detective is not allowed to answer my questions specifically.
869
00:43:45.250 --> 00:43:47.769
They're starting to a little bit now because we know
870
00:43:47.829 --> 00:43:51.550
some national people are asking them questions. I write them
871
00:43:51.659 --> 00:43:55.219
every month. And I was told about five years ago,
872
00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:56.900
I was told, if you don't write us so often,
873
00:43:56.940 --> 00:44:00.480
if you write us short, emails will respond to you.
874
00:44:00.500 --> 00:44:03.389
So I stopped writing so often. And so every month
875
00:44:03.449 --> 00:44:06.090
I ask the same question. And for six to seven months,
876
00:44:06.170 --> 00:44:08.329
I don't get an answer. And then we do a
877
00:44:08.389 --> 00:44:11.590
news story. Why won't you all respond? Then they respond.
878
00:44:12.030 --> 00:44:14.750
And then they won't respond for another six to eight months.
879
00:44:14.789 --> 00:44:19.400
And I can't keep playing games. this information game. When
880
00:44:19.420 --> 00:44:22.389
we ask them why they won't, they just go, oh,
881
00:44:22.610 --> 00:44:25.849
families just find it hard to understand criminal justice. And
882
00:44:25.889 --> 00:44:29.349
I have to always say, I've been studying criminal justice
883
00:44:29.389 --> 00:44:32.849
for 22 years. Plus, I was taught by some of
884
00:44:32.889 --> 00:44:36.429
the best in the field the first 12 years. Yeah.
885
00:44:36.590 --> 00:44:39.320
Well, if the detective at Jubilee's listens to this, my
886
00:44:39.420 --> 00:44:41.940
personal opinion is, is Can I cuss on this?
887
00:44:43.119 --> 00:44:44.840
Yes, you can cuss on this podcast. Get the fuck
888
00:44:44.960 --> 00:44:45.760
over yourself.
889
00:44:46.150 --> 00:44:46.329
Right.
890
00:44:46.349 --> 00:44:47.139
It's not about you.
891
00:44:47.489 --> 00:44:47.949
Exactly.
892
00:44:47.969 --> 00:44:50.030
This does not make you any less of a man
893
00:44:50.170 --> 00:44:52.289
or any less of a measuring contest you want to
894
00:44:52.309 --> 00:44:56.119
have because you want to mark your territory like a dog. Yeah,
895
00:44:56.159 --> 00:45:00.119
what's the harm? What is the harm in letting somebody else...
896
00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:03.800
I always go back to lately with the Brian Koberger
897
00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:06.949
case in Idaho for a little tiny town in Idaho.
898
00:45:07.030 --> 00:45:09.190
The very first thing the chief of police said is
899
00:45:09.809 --> 00:45:13.809
we need help. Why not reach out to other units
900
00:45:13.989 --> 00:45:17.329
or the federal level? Because there's money and resources there
901
00:45:17.769 --> 00:45:20.980
and time. And I get that local law enforcement. are
902
00:45:21.099 --> 00:45:25.280
so inundated and overloaded that they don't have time to
903
00:45:25.360 --> 00:45:29.420
dedicate hours and hours to cases, especially cold ones. So
904
00:45:29.659 --> 00:45:33.539
why not do the right thing? It makes you a
905
00:45:33.639 --> 00:45:36.760
bigger man. It makes you a better person. Get the
906
00:45:36.800 --> 00:45:37.619
fuck over yourself.
907
00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:38.320
Yes.
908
00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:39.800
I couldn't agree more.
909
00:45:39.820 --> 00:45:41.420
I get fired up over that stuff.
910
00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:41.760
Sorry.
911
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:46.559
No, you're good. So the time of death, according to Dr. Sibley,
912
00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:48.699
was estimated to be somewhere between 9 p.m.
913
00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:50.030
On the 27th and 8.30 a.m. on the 28th. So
914
00:45:50.050 --> 00:45:51.449
the 27th was the Monday.
915
00:45:51.449 --> 00:45:51.630
8.30 a.m.
916
00:45:51.650 --> 00:45:52.889
Is the Tuesday. So that would mean.
917
00:46:00.110 --> 00:46:04.260
At the latest, two days had gone by before she
918
00:46:04.300 --> 00:46:06.980
had been found. And again, this is not based on
919
00:46:07.099 --> 00:46:11.380
body temperature or, you know, she is mild, rigor mortis,
920
00:46:11.760 --> 00:46:15.960
partially digested food. They based Brittany's time of death on
921
00:46:16.019 --> 00:46:19.610
her cell phone ping, the last contact with her loved ones.
922
00:46:20.070 --> 00:46:21.230
That's my understanding.
923
00:46:21.489 --> 00:46:26.409
That has nothing to do with her activity. Whether or
924
00:46:26.510 --> 00:46:28.980
not her phone pinged, she was at home.
925
00:46:29.980 --> 00:46:33.340
So I think that's part of the problem is there
926
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:36.820
wasn't a good medical examiner report, in my opinion.
927
00:46:38.409 --> 00:46:40.289
Timeline is not clearly established.
928
00:46:40.900 --> 00:46:45.500
And police, again, in my opinion, got tunnel vision on
929
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:47.139
this DNA thing with the.
930
00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:47.900
Semen and the blood.
931
00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:51.610
Investigators obviously are having trouble building this case because there's
932
00:46:51.699 --> 00:46:54.289
not a clear timeline. And so for a long time,
933
00:46:54.570 --> 00:46:58.269
investigators really thought that they could solve this thing with
934
00:46:58.510 --> 00:47:01.190
the DNA recovered from the scene. This is the kind
935
00:47:01.230 --> 00:47:02.969
of clue that would solve a case.
936
00:47:02.849 --> 00:47:04.030
On TV in like 45 minutes.
937
00:47:04.050 --> 00:47:04.190
But.
938
00:47:05.590 --> 00:47:09.550
The DNA recovered in Brittany's apartment took Tulsa PD down
939
00:47:09.590 --> 00:47:14.980
a road that lasted decades and ultimately led nowhere. By 2012,
940
00:47:14.980 --> 00:47:18.840
Detective Jeff Felton, the lead detective that has been working
941
00:47:18.900 --> 00:47:20.840
on this the whole time, the one who was talking
942
00:47:20.920 --> 00:47:26.079
to and helping Maggie, Jeff ended up looking at about 2,000 suspects.
943
00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:31.730
Holy crud. Well, yeah, when you're, you don't have a
944
00:47:31.849 --> 00:47:34.880
time to even like establish evidence It's such a big
945
00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:36.639
window in the world of true crime or in the
946
00:47:36.679 --> 00:47:39.340
world of a crime being committed. Your suspect list is
947
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:40.639
going to be huge.
948
00:47:41.070 --> 00:47:41.340
Yeah.
949
00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:45.309
So obviously they were working really hard at this point.
950
00:47:45.369 --> 00:47:48.730
They were trying, you know, to look at 2000 suspects.
951
00:47:49.230 --> 00:47:51.690
It's not fair to say they weren't doing anything. They
952
00:47:51.730 --> 00:47:55.070
were working very, very hard. It's just, I feel like
953
00:47:55.090 --> 00:47:57.469
they made a mistake with this whole DNA thing.
954
00:47:57.550 --> 00:47:59.769
To kick the can down the road by being like, well,
955
00:47:59.809 --> 00:48:01.909
when the DNA comes in, then we'll know. So they
956
00:48:01.929 --> 00:48:04.550
were able to kind of like, Does that make sense?
957
00:48:04.590 --> 00:48:06.590
I could totally see where it's like, well, yeah, the
958
00:48:06.630 --> 00:48:08.409
crock pot's going off. The timer is going to like,
959
00:48:08.469 --> 00:48:11.929
we'll get to that later. And then we'll know. And
960
00:48:11.949 --> 00:48:14.369
so we don't have to invest a ton of time
961
00:48:14.389 --> 00:48:15.469
into it up front.
962
00:48:15.750 --> 00:48:20.179
They did also find there were 276 sex offenders living
963
00:48:20.500 --> 00:48:24.340
in or near the apartment complex. And keep in mind...
964
00:48:25.050 --> 00:48:28.130
They had seen from reports that this was a safe
965
00:48:28.230 --> 00:48:31.909
place for her to be. So that makes me question
966
00:48:31.929 --> 00:48:35.730
the validity of these reports. And that's that's a lot
967
00:48:35.789 --> 00:48:36.570
of sex offenders.
968
00:48:36.909 --> 00:48:37.159
Yeah.
969
00:48:37.550 --> 00:48:40.780
So they entered this DNA that they had recovered from
970
00:48:40.820 --> 00:48:44.440
the scene, the semen and blood DNA into CODIS. And
971
00:48:44.500 --> 00:48:47.800
they were using this DNA and comparing it to these
972
00:48:47.800 --> 00:48:49.360
2000 suspects.
973
00:48:49.960 --> 00:48:50.579
Does it match?
974
00:48:50.739 --> 00:48:53.260
Yes or no. If it doesn't match, it's not our guy.
975
00:48:53.980 --> 00:48:55.880
If it doesn't match, it's not our guy. That's how
976
00:48:55.920 --> 00:48:58.760
they did it every time. So of course, every single
977
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:01.679
DNA comparison came back negative, hence how they ended up
978
00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:05.579
with 2000 suspects. And now we're going to flash all
979
00:49:05.619 --> 00:49:09.730
the way forward to 2019. So with new developments in
980
00:49:09.769 --> 00:49:13.929
DNA technology, investigators got another idea. What if they tried
981
00:49:14.050 --> 00:49:18.360
out forensic genetic genealogy in Britney's murder? The same kind
982
00:49:18.380 --> 00:49:21.349
of technology that has cracked major cases like the Golden
983
00:49:21.369 --> 00:49:25.309
State Killer. This type of testing generates a composite sketch
984
00:49:25.550 --> 00:49:29.599
from the crime scene DNA using phenotype or a computer
985
00:49:29.659 --> 00:49:34.099
generated image. So they're able to use genetic makeup to
986
00:49:34.340 --> 00:49:37.500
get a good idea of what the killer physically looks like.
987
00:49:37.659 --> 00:49:39.739
And then they can take that and put a sketch
988
00:49:39.920 --> 00:49:43.380
out into the media, see if they can find a match.
989
00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:48.110
And this is different than like what we've seen with genetics.
990
00:49:49.050 --> 00:49:53.739
like typing like through trying to figure out, oh, it's
991
00:49:54.010 --> 00:49:57.500
a cousin or a father or somebody within a genetic tree, correct?
992
00:49:57.900 --> 00:49:59.420
This is two different things, right?
993
00:49:59.820 --> 00:50:03.699
Yeah, phenotype is just more so like, okay, based on
994
00:50:04.179 --> 00:50:08.449
this genetic makeup, there's a 98% chance that this person
995
00:50:08.550 --> 00:50:12.550
is European descent. There's this many percent chance that their
996
00:50:12.590 --> 00:50:14.869
chin looks like this and their eye color is like this.
997
00:50:15.230 --> 00:50:17.030
So that's what they're doing now.
998
00:50:17.769 --> 00:50:17.949
Okay.
999
00:50:18.550 --> 00:50:22.440
So ultimately, this phenotype testing generated an image and police
1000
00:50:22.500 --> 00:50:25.440
were able to create a composite sketch and start putting
1001
00:50:25.460 --> 00:50:28.199
it out into the media. The sketch was that of
1002
00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:32.059
a Caucasian male with light colored hair, most likely blonde,
1003
00:50:32.550 --> 00:50:36.670
and of Northern European ancestry with either blue or green eyes.
1004
00:50:37.469 --> 00:50:40.250
Police also hoped that this could narrow down their list
1005
00:50:40.269 --> 00:50:45.690
of suspects. And Maggie was so certain that this was,
1006
00:50:45.710 --> 00:50:49.170
you know, good and accurate, understandably, that she put this
1007
00:50:49.250 --> 00:50:52.860
sketch on her car at one point, the caravan. And
1008
00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:55.659
so she was driving everywhere with this sketch on it.
1009
00:50:55.760 --> 00:50:58.360
And people were calling her, giving her tips. This is
1010
00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:01.880
who people were looking for. Ultimately, they land on one
1011
00:51:01.940 --> 00:51:06.579
man matching this profile, a man who knew Brittany Phillips personally.
1012
00:51:07.550 --> 00:51:12.500
This man had been dating Brittany's friend back in 2004.
1013
00:51:12.500 --> 00:51:14.519
We don't know which friend this was. At first, I
1014
00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:16.079
kind of wondered if it was Lydia, but they don't
1015
00:51:16.099 --> 00:51:18.139
make it clear. So I don't know for sure. We
1016
00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:20.320
just know that he was dating one of Brittany's friends
1017
00:51:20.840 --> 00:51:22.639
in this area, and he lived out of town.
1018
00:51:23.449 --> 00:51:26.730
Okay, and it wasn't the friend that had been assaulted
1019
00:51:26.829 --> 00:51:28.809
by her boyfriend that she went to go visit?
1020
00:51:30.409 --> 00:51:32.389
It doesn't seem that way, but again, like, I don't
1021
00:51:32.409 --> 00:51:34.650
know for sure. So basically....
1022
00:51:35.139 --> 00:51:37.300
Or this girl also might have lived out of town.
1023
00:51:37.780 --> 00:51:39.820
We know that he for sure lived out of town,
1024
00:51:40.400 --> 00:51:44.070
but he was dating one of Britney's friends. And when
1025
00:51:44.119 --> 00:51:48.690
he was questioned by police, he put himself in Britney's apartment.
1026
00:51:49.090 --> 00:51:51.530
He claimed he and his girlfriend had come into town
1027
00:51:51.869 --> 00:51:55.050
and stayed in her bedroom while Britney slept on the couch.
1028
00:51:55.409 --> 00:51:59.079
And he and his girlfriend had sex on Britney's bed.
1029
00:51:59.739 --> 00:52:02.300
Which is how his semen ended up there. His blood
1030
00:52:02.340 --> 00:52:05.900
and semen did match. They confirmed it. The DNA that
1031
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:09.010
was found at the scene. So initially when I heard
1032
00:52:09.030 --> 00:52:11.869
this story, I was skeptical. I was like, you know,
1033
00:52:11.909 --> 00:52:16.110
how convenient you're putting yourself there. But then I'm thinking
1034
00:52:16.150 --> 00:52:18.139
back to like when I was 18 and I would
1035
00:52:18.179 --> 00:52:20.380
have random friends come crash with me all the time.
1036
00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:20.469
And.
1037
00:52:22.610 --> 00:52:23.800
You're 18.
1038
00:52:23.800 --> 00:52:25.300
You. Yeah. I'm sorry.
1039
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:28.760
You have sex wherever you can. What do you.
1040
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:29.159
Yeah.
1041
00:52:29.199 --> 00:52:33.000
So they they had sex in her room. That's why
1042
00:52:33.039 --> 00:52:36.199
it was there. There's one drop of blood. And according
1043
00:52:36.280 --> 00:52:40.599
to police, he had an airtight alibi. Now, keep in mind,
1044
00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:44.340
this is 14 years later. So I don't know.
1045
00:52:44.780 --> 00:52:45.820
Like, I wouldn't.
1046
00:52:45.530 --> 00:52:47.530
Airtight alibi 14 years later.
1047
00:52:48.050 --> 00:52:50.610
Well, and how do you have an airtight alibi when
1048
00:52:50.630 --> 00:52:54.769
we don't know anything? the specific timeline of when she
1049
00:52:54.789 --> 00:52:57.250
was killed was she killed on the 27th the 28th
1050
00:52:57.349 --> 00:53:01.519
the 29th so when were you there and again that's
1051
00:53:01.579 --> 00:53:03.860
also really hard to remember 14 years later.
1052
00:53:03.679 --> 00:53:09.679
Yeah i wonder if the potential ex-girlfriend could at least
1053
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:13.130
verify that at some point her and her boyfriend had
1054
00:53:13.170 --> 00:53:14.710
hooked up in her friend's bed.
1055
00:53:14.829 --> 00:53:18.349
Right because you'd probably at least remember that Yeah. The
1056
00:53:18.389 --> 00:53:21.210
specifics of this man's alibi have never been made public,
1057
00:53:21.250 --> 00:53:23.679
hence why we don't know who this person is.
1058
00:53:24.179 --> 00:53:24.440
Yeah.
1059
00:53:24.940 --> 00:53:26.579
All that time gone for nothing.
1060
00:53:27.070 --> 00:53:27.809
He was ruled out.
1061
00:53:28.409 --> 00:53:31.920
I was on my, I don't know, 15th, 16th tour
1062
00:53:32.099 --> 00:53:36.800
in Washington state. And I got a call from the detective,
1063
00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:40.960
then the second detective, Eddie Majors. And he said, CeCe
1064
00:53:40.980 --> 00:53:44.449
Moore made a direct match, not a brother, like sometimes
1065
00:53:44.469 --> 00:53:48.289
they find, not an uncle. She identified whose DNA that was,
1066
00:53:48.730 --> 00:53:52.869
meaning it could not be anybody else's, only this one person.
1067
00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:56.099
And then his second word stabbed me in the heart.
1068
00:53:56.679 --> 00:54:00.860
He said, and he's not our killer. And I went, what?
1069
00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:04.449
And I said, how could that be? And he said, oh,
1070
00:54:04.510 --> 00:54:07.110
he has an airtight alibi. And I said, what is that?
1071
00:54:07.530 --> 00:54:08.769
And he said, I can't tell you. So.
1072
00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:13.570
This, okay, so this leads us to another twist. So
1073
00:54:13.650 --> 00:54:17.090
flashing forward about another four years, so very recently, we're
1074
00:54:17.469 --> 00:54:21.949
at 2023 now, Maggie received shocking news from her ex-husband,
1075
00:54:22.429 --> 00:54:26.590
the one who lived in Florida. So way back in 2004,
1076
00:54:26.590 --> 00:54:30.269
the year Brittany was murdered, Brittany's father received a letter
1077
00:54:30.550 --> 00:54:34.610
from Brittany in the mail. This letter was timestamped for
1078
00:54:34.650 --> 00:54:41.289
September 29th, 2004. And it was in Brittany's handwriting. This
1079
00:54:41.329 --> 00:54:46.320
would directly contradict Brittany's supposed time of death, according to Dr.
1080
00:54:46.380 --> 00:54:46.820
Sibley.
1081
00:54:47.099 --> 00:54:49.480
This would be at least one day, if not two,
1082
00:54:50.099 --> 00:54:51.480
after they're thinking she was dead.
1083
00:54:51.500 --> 00:54:52.519
Mm-hmm.
1084
00:54:53.690 --> 00:54:56.969
So Brittany had mailed a birthday card for her grandfather,
1085
00:54:57.030 --> 00:54:59.469
but she couldn't remember his address. So she mailed it
1086
00:54:59.510 --> 00:55:02.809
to her dad first to forward along. And the way
1087
00:55:02.849 --> 00:55:06.840
that this timestamping worked is it was timestamped via a kiosk.
1088
00:55:07.380 --> 00:55:09.380
So you would buy a stamp and the machine would
1089
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:13.739
print the stamp with a date, time and origin. So
1090
00:55:13.800 --> 00:55:16.639
we know for sure whoever mailed this out, whether it
1091
00:55:16.659 --> 00:55:20.179
was her or the killer or a friend, it went
1092
00:55:20.300 --> 00:55:20.960
out on the 29th.
1093
00:55:22.250 --> 00:55:24.349
And he didn't tell anybody about this?
1094
00:55:25.050 --> 00:55:25.289
Right.
1095
00:55:25.309 --> 00:55:28.469
Because where was this kiosk? Where did she mail it from?
1096
00:55:28.510 --> 00:55:31.650
Where did she purchase the stamp from? That could have
1097
00:55:31.670 --> 00:55:35.239
had CCTV or some sort of surveillance system or something
1098
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:38.139
along those lines. Or at bare minimum, hey, you sold
1099
00:55:38.179 --> 00:55:40.659
a stamp to a young girl. Do you remember what
1100
00:55:40.699 --> 00:55:42.679
time she came in or was there a young girl
1101
00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:44.420
or was it a guy or was it this?
1102
00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:45.599
Exactly.
1103
00:55:45.639 --> 00:55:47.659
And the problem now is it's 2023.
1104
00:55:47.659 --> 00:55:53.110
This was 2004. So Maggie, as soon as she gets
1105
00:55:53.150 --> 00:55:56.550
this information, turns it over to the police, turns the card,
1106
00:55:56.610 --> 00:55:59.880
turns the stamp over and police collected it as evidence.
1107
00:56:00.590 --> 00:56:03.059
Maggie has heard nothing about this since.
1108
00:56:04.099 --> 00:56:08.119
Was the stamp licked? Was the envelope licked?
1109
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:10.219
Great questions.
1110
00:56:12.260 --> 00:56:15.460
They're under that new chief now. And so we we
1111
00:56:15.500 --> 00:56:19.119
don't know. You also have to question who mailed this letter.
1112
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:21.760
Was it Brittany shortly before her murder or was it
1113
00:56:21.860 --> 00:56:26.059
someone else? So now not only has it been more
1114
00:56:26.079 --> 00:56:30.239
than 20 years since 18 year old Brittany Phillips was murdered,
1115
00:56:30.849 --> 00:56:34.230
but police are back to square one. They have no suspect.
1116
00:56:34.949 --> 00:56:37.949
They have no clear time of death. And for Maggie,
1117
00:56:38.050 --> 00:56:41.429
she said this news was like Brittany had died all
1118
00:56:41.489 --> 00:56:41.909
over again.
1119
00:56:42.369 --> 00:56:42.989
All over again.
1120
00:56:43.230 --> 00:56:43.449
Yeah.
1121
00:56:43.889 --> 00:56:47.250
Additionally, if this DNA sample police had been using ruled
1122
00:56:47.349 --> 00:56:52.289
out this one man, this means police have been cross-comparing
1123
00:56:52.610 --> 00:56:57.170
with the wrong DNA sample this entire time. They have
1124
00:56:57.190 --> 00:57:00.210
ruled out thousands of suspects, quote unquote, for the last
1125
00:57:00.309 --> 00:57:03.329
two decades, but they've ruled them out using the wrong DNA.
1126
00:57:04.050 --> 00:57:06.070
Yeah, they ruled them out on something that doesn't matter.
1127
00:57:07.130 --> 00:57:07.530
So now.
1128
00:57:08.769 --> 00:57:12.070
They have to theoretically look at all of these people again.
1129
00:57:12.449 --> 00:57:16.969
Which is where a cold case detective who specializes at
1130
00:57:17.090 --> 00:57:19.590
starting at the very beginning, how many times have we
1131
00:57:19.610 --> 00:57:22.400
been told by cold case detectives, you go back like
1132
00:57:22.440 --> 00:57:26.519
you're there day one, chronologically through whatever evidence is left,
1133
00:57:26.599 --> 00:57:30.239
because you never know what is important now that maybe
1134
00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:33.159
didn't get flagged as important then, what got missed. Everyone
1135
00:57:33.179 --> 00:57:33.989
makes mistakes.
1136
00:57:34.360 --> 00:57:34.610
Mm-hmm.
1137
00:57:35.210 --> 00:57:35.650
Exactly.
1138
00:57:35.889 --> 00:57:39.449
And to not allow a quote, someone that specializes in
1139
00:57:39.570 --> 00:57:44.400
working in reverse is asinine, frankly, and irresponsible.
1140
00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:49.000
So what they're saying is, guess what? That phenotype sketch
1141
00:57:49.139 --> 00:57:51.889
is still valid. We just got a bad tip from it.
1142
00:57:52.489 --> 00:57:57.750
Versus Cece Moore made a direct match. To that DNA,
1143
00:57:57.969 --> 00:58:00.659
we went out and interrogated him and he's not a killer.
1144
00:58:00.760 --> 00:58:05.119
You're invalidating that phenotype sketch. But they've not done that
1145
00:58:05.219 --> 00:58:07.579
and they continue to do that. And a good example
1146
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:10.739
of the problem is somebody was sending me a tip
1147
00:58:10.780 --> 00:58:13.369
two days ago and they sent it in to TPD
1148
00:58:13.409 --> 00:58:16.869
and I did too. And I mentioned this problem to them.
1149
00:58:17.090 --> 00:58:19.750
They said, oh, here, have you looked at this, this, this,
1150
00:58:19.869 --> 00:58:24.639
this and this person? because they have very similar assault
1151
00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:28.650
histories to Britney's crime. And then their second statement was,
1152
00:58:28.789 --> 00:58:31.550
but I'm not sure if they're all white. And from
1153
00:58:32.150 --> 00:58:34.690
what I'm reading, the DNA says he's white.
1154
00:58:35.190 --> 00:58:37.369
Right, so it's limiting your suspects.
1155
00:58:38.190 --> 00:58:40.969
Yeah, so if they're continuing to say that the tip
1156
00:58:41.030 --> 00:58:46.949
was a phenotype, from the phenotype picture, they're saying that white, Caucasian, blue-eyed, blonde-haired,
1157
00:58:47.010 --> 00:58:49.539
even though that can alter a bit, is still valid.
1158
00:58:49.579 --> 00:58:53.639
They've never invalidated it. And from what insiders tell me,
1159
00:58:53.900 --> 00:58:56.760
they haven't gone back over these stuff because that's what
1160
00:58:56.820 --> 00:59:01.179
killed me. What's killed me was the fact that That
1161
00:59:01.530 --> 00:59:04.550
when they said, and he's not our killer, me still
1162
00:59:04.570 --> 00:59:08.110
being not that learned in DNA, knew that all the
1163
00:59:08.150 --> 00:59:12.280
suspects that we had compared. to blood and semen should
1164
00:59:12.320 --> 00:59:15.960
have gone back to ground zero. They should have gone back.
1165
00:59:16.099 --> 00:59:18.039
And every time I ask, have you gone back over
1166
00:59:18.079 --> 00:59:20.440
those old suspects? They go, we don't need to. We
1167
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:22.659
already ruled them out. Well, do Did you rule them
1168
00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:25.599
out with the first DNA or did you rule them
1169
00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:29.789
out with other DNA? Because there's other samples. Even the
1170
00:59:29.829 --> 00:59:34.210
detective was not aware that there was DNA underneath the nails.
1171
00:59:34.510 --> 00:59:40.699
Maggie also recently learned different DNA was found under Brittany's fingernails.
1172
00:59:41.969 --> 00:59:44.690
And as far as we know, this was never tested
1173
00:59:44.710 --> 00:59:48.579
until much more recently. And that testing is still ongoing.
1174
00:59:48.900 --> 00:59:51.440
There's no clear leads. So that is what I mean
1175
00:59:51.480 --> 00:59:56.960
by tunnel vision. Going back to Dr. Sibley's medical examiner report,
1176
00:59:57.059 --> 00:59:59.460
it wasn't clear what type of testing was done to
1177
00:59:59.500 --> 01:00:04.400
determine sexual assault. According to Maggie, when Dr. Sibley came
1178
01:00:04.500 --> 01:00:07.820
on to work initially for Tulsa, they had previously been
1179
01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:11.260
fired from their last job and were hired at Tulsa
1180
01:00:11.360 --> 01:00:12.400
under restrictions.
1181
01:00:13.219 --> 01:00:13.500
Dr.
1182
01:00:13.559 --> 01:00:17.070
Sibley was later fired in Tulsa as well. And we
1183
01:00:17.090 --> 01:00:19.510
don't know the details of why. This could be nothing.
1184
01:00:19.869 --> 01:00:22.349
But I do think that's important to think about.
1185
01:00:22.369 --> 01:00:26.630
I'd be interested because the female anatomy, if she was
1186
01:00:26.730 --> 01:00:29.389
on her period, can look very different. Like he said
1187
01:00:29.429 --> 01:00:34.380
sexual assault, but that didn't perform. a rape kit, I mean,
1188
01:00:35.960 --> 01:00:39.239
what was the determining factor of the assault other than
1189
01:00:39.300 --> 01:00:41.420
the possibility that her pants were off?
1190
01:00:41.820 --> 01:00:45.940
Well, and maybe Dr. Sibley did perform a rape kit,
1191
01:00:46.280 --> 01:00:47.840
but it wasn't documented.
1192
01:00:48.159 --> 01:00:50.170
And what do we always say? If it wasn't documented,
1193
01:00:50.190 --> 01:00:51.230
it didn't happen.
1194
01:00:51.250 --> 01:00:53.730
No, in our world of working in real estate, if
1195
01:00:53.789 --> 01:00:55.969
it's not on paper, it's not written down, it doesn't count.
1196
01:00:56.369 --> 01:00:56.809
Exactly.
1197
01:00:56.829 --> 01:00:57.630
Mm-hmm.
1198
01:00:58.570 --> 01:01:01.369
Rainbows and wishes, people. Like, do your job. Exactly.
1199
01:01:01.389 --> 01:01:04.239
Yeah, we're seeing that in the Lindsay Clancy case right now.
1200
01:01:04.380 --> 01:01:07.260
If it wasn't documented, it didn't happen. It doesn't count.
1201
01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:07.840
We don't know.
1202
01:01:07.900 --> 01:01:09.480
We don't know if a rape kit was done or not.
1203
01:01:10.019 --> 01:01:13.559
Maggie also asked investigators a number of times where the
1204
01:01:13.619 --> 01:01:16.440
medical examiner's notes are and if a rape kit was
1205
01:01:16.539 --> 01:01:19.099
actually done or not. No one seems to have that answer.
1206
01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:22.519
Maggie would like for other cold case units to be
1207
01:01:22.559 --> 01:01:25.530
allowed to look at Brittany's case and help. And she
1208
01:01:25.590 --> 01:01:28.030
says Tulsa PD has been very resistant.
1209
01:01:28.949 --> 01:01:32.150
I cry every day. Right. I don't beat myself up
1210
01:01:32.230 --> 01:01:34.070
about the losing. But I miss her when I go
1211
01:01:34.110 --> 01:01:36.670
through a mountain or I go over a river or
1212
01:01:36.750 --> 01:01:39.840
I see a rainbow or something because it reminds me
1213
01:01:39.909 --> 01:01:42.480
of her and I miss her. But yeah. And in
1214
01:01:42.500 --> 01:01:47.139
case some people, when they listen to these podcasts, they go, oh,
1215
01:01:47.239 --> 01:01:51.000
they just don't understand and they just hate the police. No. No.
1216
01:01:51.500 --> 01:01:54.489
I had the best team for the first 12 years.
1217
01:01:55.119 --> 01:01:58.969
I still have police officers on the beat, on the road,
1218
01:01:59.090 --> 01:02:02.130
in the cars, who stop me and sometimes I think
1219
01:02:02.170 --> 01:02:04.769
I'm getting in trouble or something, but they just stop
1220
01:02:04.789 --> 01:02:07.469
me to tell me, we ran this DNA for Jeff.
1221
01:02:07.690 --> 01:02:10.329
Or every time I hear about your case, my heart
1222
01:02:10.389 --> 01:02:13.000
goes out. Or I used to work in evidence and
1223
01:02:13.039 --> 01:02:15.380
I wanted to analyze things so much more and they
1224
01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:21.909
were because I have met right there. And then the sheriff,
1225
01:02:22.230 --> 01:02:25.070
the head sheriff, if it wasn't for him and his
1226
01:02:25.250 --> 01:02:30.280
cold case task force, they all got my back. Cheryl McCollum, back.
1227
01:02:30.760 --> 01:02:35.420
I've worked with so many criminal justice, retired FBI's. I've
1228
01:02:35.780 --> 01:02:39.699
got so many people. So it's not not understanding. And
1229
01:02:40.099 --> 01:02:43.090
it's I don't know how somebody can be in a
1230
01:02:43.329 --> 01:02:47.929
job that requires such compassion and be so cruel. Because
1231
01:02:47.949 --> 01:02:51.530
if that gets to another family, they could be devastated
1232
01:02:51.610 --> 01:02:55.210
by it. It would be almost as bad as them
1233
01:02:55.269 --> 01:02:59.960
telling a person that somebody's died by treating them that way.
1234
01:03:00.039 --> 01:03:01.880
Not me. You do something to me, I'm going to
1235
01:03:01.900 --> 01:03:03.860
start standing up for every other victim.
1236
01:03:04.340 --> 01:03:08.639
As for other leads and potential suspects... Two other suspects
1237
01:03:08.699 --> 01:03:11.840
police looked at were brothers who lived nearby that had
1238
01:03:11.900 --> 01:03:13.400
expressed interest in Brittany.
1239
01:03:13.780 --> 01:03:14.980
That is all I know about them.
1240
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:16.440
Okay.
1241
01:03:17.079 --> 01:03:21.119
Another one, I thought this was interesting, was a security
1242
01:03:21.159 --> 01:03:24.909
guard at the apartment complex who Brittany went on one
1243
01:03:25.110 --> 01:03:29.050
single date with. Brittany ended up blocking this person from
1244
01:03:29.090 --> 01:03:33.550
her phone and email. And he refused to give a
1245
01:03:33.550 --> 01:03:34.289
DNA sample.
1246
01:03:38.380 --> 01:03:38.639
Huh.
1247
01:03:39.050 --> 01:03:39.650
Interesting.
1248
01:03:40.349 --> 01:03:41.429
Interesting.
1249
01:03:41.750 --> 01:03:44.909
Police did get a warrant to do a buccal swab
1250
01:03:45.099 --> 01:03:49.280
from him, but DNA ruled him out.
1251
01:03:49.840 --> 01:03:50.119
But.
1252
01:03:50.909 --> 01:03:54.059
This was with the semen and blood DNA. So no,
1253
01:03:54.320 --> 01:03:54.639
it didn't.
1254
01:03:54.659 --> 01:03:57.000
So it didn't rule him out. Yeah, exactly.
1255
01:03:57.559 --> 01:03:58.320
So we don't know.
1256
01:03:58.920 --> 01:04:01.280
Maybe they can test his DNA with that fingernail DNA.
1257
01:04:01.679 --> 01:04:02.000
Yeah.
1258
01:04:02.460 --> 01:04:05.079
The apartment complex still stands, but is now under a
1259
01:04:05.139 --> 01:04:09.420
different name. I hope they fixed that shared attic bullshit.
1260
01:04:09.780 --> 01:04:12.429
And I did look up some reviews online just to
1261
01:04:12.510 --> 01:04:15.210
see if I can find anything concerning. I did not.
1262
01:04:15.289 --> 01:04:18.550
So that's good as far as like safety stuff. Brittany
1263
01:04:18.590 --> 01:04:21.920
was buried on October 4th, 2004 on what would have
1264
01:04:21.940 --> 01:04:25.539
been her 19th birthday. Dr. Maggie is still left with
1265
01:04:25.599 --> 01:04:28.639
no answers, but she has turned her pain into purpose.
1266
01:04:29.519 --> 01:04:32.780
She is doing amazing things. She works on advocacy for
1267
01:04:32.840 --> 01:04:36.849
legal reform for DNA laws. And three years after her
1268
01:04:36.869 --> 01:04:40.809
daughter's murder is when she started caravan to catch a killer.
1269
01:04:41.849 --> 01:04:45.329
She got a van wrapped with her daughter's photo in
1270
01:04:45.369 --> 01:04:49.650
her favorite colors, pink and purple. and her favorite, butterflies,
1271
01:04:49.969 --> 01:04:53.070
to spread awareness of her daughter's unsolved murder from state
1272
01:04:53.110 --> 01:04:57.429
to state. And when we talked about this on the interview,
1273
01:04:57.469 --> 01:05:00.050
I thought it was really cool. She said that she
1274
01:05:00.210 --> 01:05:03.550
found this guy who has been wrapping cars for years
1275
01:05:03.750 --> 01:05:06.030
and learned about her story and was like, I will
1276
01:05:06.070 --> 01:05:08.769
wrap your car for free. And anytime you need another
1277
01:05:08.829 --> 01:05:11.829
car wrapped, I'll do it again. And so she's been
1278
01:05:11.869 --> 01:05:13.510
working with him this entire time.
1279
01:05:13.530 --> 01:05:15.449
Good for him.
1280
01:05:15.469 --> 01:05:16.760
See, police.
1281
01:05:17.349 --> 01:05:19.050
Chief, that's how you do it. You just do the
1282
01:05:19.090 --> 01:05:20.949
right thing and you're the good person and then you
1283
01:05:20.969 --> 01:05:21.610
get to be the hero.
1284
01:05:23.349 --> 01:05:27.929
As of 2025, Maggie has completed roughly 25 caravans and
1285
01:05:27.949 --> 01:05:30.510
driven through 48 states. The most recent one that she
1286
01:05:30.550 --> 01:05:32.969
did that she was telling me about is on Route 66.
1287
01:05:32.969 --> 01:05:34.639
In the last.
1288
01:05:34.420 --> 01:05:36.980
Decade, her trips have started to focus more and more
1289
01:05:37.079 --> 01:05:40.840
on other cold cases. She's helping families get their stories
1290
01:05:40.980 --> 01:05:43.440
out in front of the media. She also teaches them
1291
01:05:43.480 --> 01:05:47.690
about DNA laws, victims' resources, and just shows up so
1292
01:05:47.710 --> 01:05:50.650
that they're not alone. It's been nearly 22 years, and
1293
01:05:50.690 --> 01:05:54.960
Brittany Phillips' case remains open. According to Maggie, investigators have
1294
01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:58.300
more DNA that they have collected from Brittany's body and
1295
01:05:58.320 --> 01:06:00.519
the scene that they could work with, but it still
1296
01:06:00.559 --> 01:06:03.880
has not been tested. The DNA, again, found under Brittany's
1297
01:06:04.019 --> 01:06:08.369
fingernails is still being tested. So I'm hoping that they'll
1298
01:06:08.469 --> 01:06:11.389
continue to do that. But it's just it's been such
1299
01:06:11.449 --> 01:06:15.489
a long time. I can't imagine waiting that long for answers. No,
1300
01:06:15.610 --> 01:06:18.590
especially when it's sitting there. If you're not going to
1301
01:06:18.909 --> 01:06:22.010
use it, then turn it over to somebody who will.
1302
01:06:22.380 --> 01:06:26.079
So here's what Maggie is asking for and what you
1303
01:06:26.099 --> 01:06:29.679
guys can do to help. She wants her daughter's story
1304
01:06:29.739 --> 01:06:33.030
to make it to national news. It has made local news.
1305
01:06:33.110 --> 01:06:36.070
It has never made national news. And Maggie feels like
1306
01:06:36.210 --> 01:06:38.590
that is what we need to get more attention. Think
1307
01:06:38.650 --> 01:06:41.869
about the big cases going on right now. Lindsay Clancy,
1308
01:06:42.289 --> 01:06:45.199
Gabby Petito was another big one that went national.
1309
01:06:45.219 --> 01:06:46.199
Oh my gosh.
1310
01:06:46.420 --> 01:06:48.820
Who's the older woman who's missing right now? Why am
1311
01:06:48.860 --> 01:06:51.710
I forgetting her name? Nancy Guthrie. There we go.
1312
01:06:52.389 --> 01:06:54.389
Nancy Guthrie, her story went national.
1313
01:06:54.409 --> 01:06:57.210
That's in my hometown here where I live. Yeah, Nancy Guthrie.
1314
01:06:57.429 --> 01:06:58.510
Yeah, I went blank.
1315
01:06:58.690 --> 01:07:01.139
So you guys, you know, the ones that you know,
1316
01:07:01.599 --> 01:07:04.519
you know them because they've made national news. So she
1317
01:07:04.559 --> 01:07:08.719
feels like this could also give investigators that push to
1318
01:07:09.500 --> 01:07:13.469
solve her murder, to get help from other cold case units.
1319
01:07:14.050 --> 01:07:16.949
She essentially feels like the investigators right now in Tulsa
1320
01:07:16.969 --> 01:07:17.929
have stonewalled her.
1321
01:07:18.150 --> 01:07:19.010
They don't talk to her.
1322
01:07:19.030 --> 01:07:21.849
They're under this new chief. She has no idea where
1323
01:07:21.869 --> 01:07:24.190
they're at with the case. So she is asking for
1324
01:07:24.269 --> 01:07:27.010
everyone to do two things and they are very simple.
1325
01:07:27.809 --> 01:07:31.690
Take five minutes to write your local news stations. All
1326
01:07:31.710 --> 01:07:33.429
you have to do is say something like, have you
1327
01:07:33.449 --> 01:07:36.250
heard about Maggie Zingman, the woman who's driving all over
1328
01:07:36.309 --> 01:07:38.769
the U.S. in her van, caravan to catch a killer?
1329
01:07:39.230 --> 01:07:42.489
She's bringing awareness to her daughter's unsolved cold case while
1330
01:07:42.530 --> 01:07:47.150
helping other families. Tell five friends to do the same thing.
1331
01:07:47.670 --> 01:07:50.610
Then those five friends, tell them to tell five friends
1332
01:07:50.690 --> 01:07:53.750
and so on. This is called the spider effect. I
1333
01:07:53.789 --> 01:07:57.230
want to ask you, what do you want to leave
1334
01:07:57.250 --> 01:08:00.190
the people with that are listening to this? Do you
1335
01:08:00.230 --> 01:08:03.050
have any particular calls to action or things you want
1336
01:08:03.090 --> 01:08:05.929
people to remember your your message, if you will?
1337
01:08:06.050 --> 01:08:10.400
Yeah, I guess I have two main things. One. is
1338
01:08:10.940 --> 01:08:15.039
when Nancy Guthrie was all over the media, I had
1339
01:08:15.079 --> 01:08:18.300
a lot of missing cold case families call me and say, God,
1340
01:08:18.340 --> 01:08:20.359
this is just hurting my heart. I wish we had
1341
01:08:20.439 --> 01:08:24.420
gotten such coverage and stuff. I tried to explain the
1342
01:08:24.939 --> 01:08:28.279
idea of why media does these more well-known stories. But
1343
01:08:28.319 --> 01:08:30.649
what I started doing and a number of people started
1344
01:08:30.689 --> 01:08:33.130
doing is talking to our own local media and saying,
1345
01:08:33.189 --> 01:08:37.369
can you please publish this story? And what we said
1346
01:08:37.649 --> 01:08:41.880
is that if you're feeling just heartbroken for Nancy Guthrie
1347
01:08:41.909 --> 01:08:45.640
and her family or the Idaho murders or Gabby's family
1348
01:08:45.739 --> 01:08:48.359
and you feel powerless, what you need to do is
1349
01:08:48.439 --> 01:08:51.739
turn around. Look in your own city because hidden in
1350
01:08:51.760 --> 01:08:55.369
the shadows are all these missing and cold case families.
1351
01:08:55.630 --> 01:08:58.989
And that compassion that you have towards these national families,
1352
01:08:59.090 --> 01:09:02.109
turn it local. reach out, say, can I do anything
1353
01:09:02.180 --> 01:09:04.479
for you? Can I be there to just listen to
1354
01:09:04.520 --> 01:09:07.720
you vent? Can I help hand out flyers? Do you
1355
01:09:07.760 --> 01:09:10.539
want me to help you organize an event? Can I
1356
01:09:10.600 --> 01:09:14.300
share your story on Facebook? It can be something so little,
1357
01:09:14.319 --> 01:09:19.729
but so many families. are feeling alone and isolated. That's
1358
01:09:19.829 --> 01:09:23.500
part of my mission for these Caravan to Catch the Killers.
1359
01:09:23.619 --> 01:09:26.180
I try to reach out to families like in St. Louis.
1360
01:09:26.579 --> 01:09:30.000
None of these families knew each other. They knew of
1361
01:09:30.100 --> 01:09:34.189
each other. They knew the stories. But After they all met,
1362
01:09:34.409 --> 01:09:36.449
they now are going to have a monthly or every
1363
01:09:36.529 --> 01:09:40.029
other month meeting. They now have a network. So that's
1364
01:09:40.090 --> 01:09:43.100
what you can do. So if you're not a part
1365
01:09:43.260 --> 01:09:46.659
of a missing or cold case family, but you're involved
1366
01:09:46.699 --> 01:09:49.939
because of true crime, reach out to the families because
1367
01:09:50.100 --> 01:09:53.590
that is so powerful. That's the one thing. And then
1368
01:09:53.600 --> 01:09:58.279
I can beg. So I'm 71. I've done 350,000 miles
1369
01:09:58.319 --> 01:10:00.199
through 48 states on 25 caravan to catch a killer tourist.
1370
01:10:05.060 --> 01:10:07.739
I'm not sure how many more I can do. The
1371
01:10:08.020 --> 01:10:11.430
odd thing is I've never got national coverage. So we've
1372
01:10:11.479 --> 01:10:14.470
got to get this story out on national news. Here's
1373
01:10:14.510 --> 01:10:16.810
an easy way to do it. Three or four sentences.
1374
01:10:16.930 --> 01:10:20.350
Are you aware of the mom who has traveled 350,000
1375
01:10:20.350 --> 01:10:24.909
miles through 48 states on 25 tours originally to solve
1376
01:10:24.949 --> 01:10:28.689
her daughter's murder, but after 10 years learned of thousands
1377
01:10:28.850 --> 01:10:32.829
of cold case families with stories untold? And so now
1378
01:10:33.149 --> 01:10:37.689
she reaches out to families. to help them have advocacy.
1379
01:10:38.090 --> 01:10:42.149
But it's not just reaching out. It's called the spider effect.
1380
01:10:42.369 --> 01:10:46.130
So if you can go on Facebook, Instagram, you can
1381
01:10:46.229 --> 01:10:51.949
find NBC, CBS, CNN, Fox, MSNOW. You can find all
1382
01:10:51.970 --> 01:10:55.770
of them on Instagram or on Facebook. You can find
1383
01:10:55.810 --> 01:10:58.989
their emails, send snail mails. But when you do that,
1384
01:10:59.329 --> 01:11:02.390
ask five of your friends to do that. Tell them
1385
01:11:02.630 --> 01:11:05.569
to ask five of their friends. and tell them to
1386
01:11:06.069 --> 01:11:08.850
ask five of their friends. Because the only time I
1387
01:11:09.449 --> 01:11:12.819
ever got an almost national news, I asked them, I
1388
01:11:12.840 --> 01:11:15.300
was so shocked that they called me. I said, so
1389
01:11:15.359 --> 01:11:17.260
why did you call me? She said, it was the
1390
01:11:17.300 --> 01:11:21.090
first time we had 26 people contact us who weren't
1391
01:11:21.149 --> 01:11:24.550
associated with the story, but were telling us about the story.
1392
01:11:25.279 --> 01:11:28.279
And so whether it's my story, which I hope you will,
1393
01:11:28.319 --> 01:11:30.199
because I want to get this out to all the
1394
01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:34.310
families or somebody else's story, the more people you can get.
1395
01:11:34.590 --> 01:11:37.729
That's why Gabby's story. That's why the home murders. That's
1396
01:11:37.770 --> 01:11:41.930
why Nancy Guthrie. That's all those stories go because they
1397
01:11:41.989 --> 01:11:45.449
know millions are interested. We may not have millions, but
1398
01:11:45.489 --> 01:11:49.439
we can get a good 20, 30 or 40 and stuff.
1399
01:11:49.500 --> 01:11:51.140
So that's that's my bed.
1400
01:11:51.939 --> 01:11:54.420
Maggie believes this is what we need to get Brittany
1401
01:11:54.460 --> 01:11:57.779
and her loved ones some semblance of closure. So I'm
1402
01:11:57.819 --> 01:12:00.470
going to put a little snippet in the show notes
1403
01:12:00.529 --> 01:12:01.989
if you guys need an idea of.
1404
01:12:01.989 --> 01:12:02.590
What to write.
1405
01:12:03.770 --> 01:12:06.569
And I will also put the homicide tip line, the
1406
01:12:06.670 --> 01:12:10.340
email for homicide and the Crime Stoppers. So the homicide
1407
01:12:10.380 --> 01:12:13.739
tip line is 918-798-8477.
1408
01:12:14.319 --> 01:12:16.319
The email is cityoftulsa.org.
1409
01:12:16.939 --> 01:12:21.279
Crime Stoppers, if you want to be anonymous, is 918-596-COPS.
1410
01:12:21.979 --> 01:12:22.800
And that is.
1411
01:12:22.779 --> 01:12:25.850
The story of the unsolved murder of Brittany Phillips and
1412
01:12:25.930 --> 01:12:27.909
the work that her mother Maggie is doing.
1413
01:12:28.909 --> 01:12:34.770
Yeah, awesome. That Oh, this poor, this poor mother. The
1414
01:12:34.909 --> 01:12:38.010
other thing that I actually thought of is one thing
1415
01:12:38.050 --> 01:12:40.729
that people pay attention to because eyes are on it.
1416
01:12:41.250 --> 01:12:43.170
If everyone listening to this and so on and so
1417
01:12:43.189 --> 01:12:48.199
forth simply got on either Instagram, X, TikTok, Facebook, whatever
1418
01:12:48.220 --> 01:12:52.260
your social media of choice is, and made a comment
1419
01:12:52.319 --> 01:12:55.899
about why this hasn't been solved or when is the
1420
01:12:55.920 --> 01:12:59.779
DNA going to be tested, some sort of hook that
1421
01:12:59.800 --> 01:13:02.729
people pay attention to. Why have we let, you know,
1422
01:13:02.739 --> 01:13:06.069
a cold case go on for this long? This woman
1423
01:13:06.109 --> 01:13:10.270
deserves justice. And you tag the city and the police
1424
01:13:10.489 --> 01:13:13.270
and anyone, if you can get the chiefs, you know,
1425
01:13:13.289 --> 01:13:18.170
that it gets paid attention to because now everyone is
1426
01:13:18.210 --> 01:13:18.869
looking at it.
1427
01:13:19.399 --> 01:13:20.220
That's a great point.
1428
01:13:20.819 --> 01:13:23.840
And so, I mean, I'd highly encourage send that email
1429
01:13:23.939 --> 01:13:27.279
and then take just one line out of that post
1430
01:13:27.319 --> 01:13:29.659
it on social media and tag the right people in it.
1431
01:13:29.699 --> 01:13:32.300
And enough of us do that or share it when
1432
01:13:32.340 --> 01:13:36.050
we see other people doing it. I've learned that that's
1433
01:13:36.090 --> 01:13:38.689
a PR nightmare. And then usually when it's a PR nightmare,
1434
01:13:39.149 --> 01:13:42.760
things get done. My love is with Dr. Maggie. I
1435
01:13:42.800 --> 01:13:45.100
met her briefly at CrimeCon as we were kind of
1436
01:13:45.119 --> 01:13:48.609
going to and from places because she is a spitfire
1437
01:13:48.670 --> 01:13:51.189
at CrimeCon. I don't think she sat down the whole
1438
01:13:51.250 --> 01:13:53.609
time we were there. She was literally like eating food
1439
01:13:53.630 --> 01:13:56.029
and walking as I think we were going to the
1440
01:13:56.529 --> 01:14:01.729
90s party where we were dressed ridiculous and met her briefly.
1441
01:14:01.760 --> 01:14:06.430
But Every person that I saw her talking to was
1442
01:14:06.590 --> 01:14:10.590
either a victim's family or advocacy or, you know, talk
1443
01:14:10.970 --> 01:14:13.869
author and being there is probably huge for her trying
1444
01:14:13.890 --> 01:14:17.210
to build a relationship there because they are sometimes the
1445
01:14:18.189 --> 01:14:20.619
gold standard. They are the gold standard and they've helped
1446
01:14:20.699 --> 01:14:24.020
solve so many crimes, but they need police to send
1447
01:14:24.119 --> 01:14:26.899
them the DNA. They are not a law enforcement database.
1448
01:14:27.260 --> 01:14:27.439
Exactly.
1449
01:14:27.460 --> 01:14:31.590
They can't just... get a warrant and grab that DNA.
1450
01:14:31.899 --> 01:14:35.569
And so I can't imagine... I have children and pain...
1451
01:14:37.310 --> 01:14:39.470
can do so much to people and to turn her
1452
01:14:39.529 --> 01:14:44.770
pain into this work that has rotten people, someone to
1453
01:14:44.810 --> 01:14:47.289
stand beside them in their darkest of times or help
1454
01:14:47.329 --> 01:14:50.810
people get answers or find resources and putting her own
1455
01:14:50.850 --> 01:14:54.529
pain aside at the same time shows obviously why her
1456
01:14:55.310 --> 01:14:57.289
daughter was the way that she was and the plans
1457
01:14:57.310 --> 01:14:58.890
that she had. It seems like she took a lot
1458
01:14:58.970 --> 01:15:03.899
after her mother. Yeah, beautifully said. I couldn't agree more. Yeah,
1459
01:15:04.199 --> 01:15:07.050
I really I really enjoyed talking with Dr. Maggie.
1460
01:15:07.329 --> 01:15:10.130
And like I said, the audio you hear throughout this episode,
1461
01:15:10.170 --> 01:15:14.069
I'll splice some of that interview in the full interview,
1462
01:15:14.430 --> 01:15:16.310
except for there's a couple of things she told me
1463
01:15:16.350 --> 01:15:19.220
to take out that she wanted off record. But so
1464
01:15:19.239 --> 01:15:22.560
other than that, the full interview will be on Patreon.
1465
01:15:23.680 --> 01:15:25.640
I am going to read a couple of Spotify comments
1466
01:15:25.659 --> 01:15:28.600
I got this week. But before I do that, Sierra,
1467
01:15:28.619 --> 01:15:31.430
I would love if you tell everybody about your show
1468
01:15:31.479 --> 01:15:32.250
and where they can find you.
1469
01:15:33.020 --> 01:15:36.779
Okay, so I'm Sierra. I'm one of two people that
1470
01:15:37.060 --> 01:15:40.840
are the host of the Unsolved Couple podcast. So what
1471
01:15:40.970 --> 01:15:44.649
we do, one of the reasons I absolutely love your
1472
01:15:44.710 --> 01:15:48.430
podcast is because in the same realm, I think weirdly
1473
01:15:48.470 --> 01:15:53.520
that true crime... And weird, creepy, mystical stuff have a
1474
01:15:53.899 --> 01:15:57.020
beautiful crosshair with each other. So my husband and I
1475
01:15:57.319 --> 01:16:01.189
recap episode by episode, case by case of the original
1476
01:16:01.390 --> 01:16:06.119
Unsolved Mysteries. We call it the original gateway into true crime. Well,
1477
01:16:06.140 --> 01:16:08.640
my husband's looking in my window right now. Speaking of him,
1478
01:16:08.680 --> 01:16:11.300
he's a goofball. And then we give you the updates
1479
01:16:11.319 --> 01:16:13.899
that you missed out on, you know, because back in
1480
01:16:13.920 --> 01:16:15.779
the 90s when we watched it, we didn't find out
1481
01:16:15.819 --> 01:16:18.039
how they ended. And actually, a lot of them have
1482
01:16:18.119 --> 01:16:22.529
been solved because of Unsolved Mysteries. Again, it goes to
1483
01:16:22.590 --> 01:16:25.750
show how important sharing these stories are because you never
1484
01:16:25.770 --> 01:16:28.770
know who's going to phone in that tip. And the
1485
01:16:29.510 --> 01:16:32.789
secondary side of that is my husband is the biggest
1486
01:16:33.029 --> 01:16:36.029
skeptic in the world and hates true crime. And I
1487
01:16:36.060 --> 01:16:38.140
believe in everything. Like I've shown him so many of your,
1488
01:16:38.180 --> 01:16:40.619
I'm like, look what my friend said. Look what Kedra said,
1489
01:16:40.659 --> 01:16:43.840
because she also agrees that dragons are just extinct.
1490
01:16:43.920 --> 01:16:47.010
Like, Oh, he's not into like the paranormal stuff. No,
1491
01:16:47.489 --> 01:16:48.029
I gotcha.
1492
01:16:49.449 --> 01:16:52.590
It, you know, it creates a really fun back and
1493
01:16:52.630 --> 01:16:56.420
forth because I believe everything. He believes nothing. And yet
1494
01:16:56.699 --> 01:16:59.319
we have a ton of fun. So That's our podcast
1495
01:16:59.359 --> 01:17:02.060
in a nutshell. It's banter. It's a little bit more
1496
01:17:02.439 --> 01:17:05.439
lighthearted on some episodes when we get to talk about
1497
01:17:05.539 --> 01:17:07.039
like how you do. We get to talk about some
1498
01:17:07.060 --> 01:17:07.760
of the fun things.
1499
01:17:08.119 --> 01:17:08.380
Right.
1500
01:17:08.720 --> 01:17:12.520
We are victim focused. We want to see these, you know,
1501
01:17:12.659 --> 01:17:14.979
crimes solved. We are very sad how many times we've
1502
01:17:15.020 --> 01:17:18.340
seen something that was even potentially covered on a nationwide
1503
01:17:18.479 --> 01:17:21.760
and there hasn't been a single blurb about it since, hey,
1504
01:17:21.840 --> 01:17:25.119
local story was an unsolved mysteries and nothing's happened from
1505
01:17:25.220 --> 01:17:29.260
those things. And so, yeah, we like getting to share
1506
01:17:29.279 --> 01:17:32.010
these stories and we would love to be put out
1507
01:17:32.029 --> 01:17:34.170
of business as far as the true crime part and
1508
01:17:34.250 --> 01:17:38.170
only talk about, you know, weird mystical stuff and things
1509
01:17:38.189 --> 01:17:40.750
like that because everything's been solved and people are kind
1510
01:17:40.789 --> 01:17:43.380
to each other again. But yeah, you can find us
1511
01:17:43.439 --> 01:17:46.239
anywhere you find your podcasts, Unsolved Couple and follow us
1512
01:17:46.319 --> 01:17:48.039
on social media. We have a lot of fun over
1513
01:17:48.060 --> 01:17:50.159
there and yeah. Love it.
1514
01:17:50.539 --> 01:17:51.439
Thanks, Sierra.
1515
01:17:51.800 --> 01:17:53.659
Yeah, of course. Thanks so much for having me on.
1516
01:17:53.920 --> 01:17:57.670
Yeah, absolutely. Let's read a couple Spotify comments.
1517
01:17:57.989 --> 01:18:00.649
And I'm also just going to start reading like YouTube comments,
1518
01:18:00.670 --> 01:18:02.840
Patreon comments, because I just want you guys to comment.
1519
01:18:03.119 --> 01:18:03.539
It helps.
1520
01:18:03.619 --> 01:18:04.760
And I want to hear what you guys think.
1521
01:18:05.390 --> 01:18:07.649
On Spotify and on YouTube, I know it helps with
1522
01:18:07.670 --> 01:18:09.930
like algorithm stuff. So I love when you guys do that.
1523
01:18:10.529 --> 01:18:12.720
So this was for, I'm on a little bit of
1524
01:18:12.760 --> 01:18:16.600
a backlog. This was for my underwater UFO episode. So
1525
01:18:16.779 --> 01:18:20.060
Luanna V said, I loved this podcast for a long
1526
01:18:20.119 --> 01:18:23.750
time now. It just keeps getting better. Alien emoji, heart emoji.
1527
01:18:24.010 --> 01:18:28.510
Greetings from Brazil, where a lot of alien sightings are.
1528
01:18:28.529 --> 01:18:29.109
That's sweet.
1529
01:18:31.520 --> 01:18:34.909
Jesse C said UFOs rule and you rule Kedra. This
1530
01:18:34.970 --> 01:18:37.909
episode's awesome. Keep up the good work. Love your shirt.
1531
01:18:37.949 --> 01:18:38.989
Have a wonderful day as well.
1532
01:18:39.489 --> 01:18:41.850
I had a don't talk to strangers shirt on with
1533
01:18:41.869 --> 01:18:43.250
my my alien.
1534
01:18:43.430 --> 01:18:45.369
Unless they come from an alien ship, then you can
1535
01:18:45.409 --> 01:18:46.859
talk to them.
1536
01:18:47.899 --> 01:18:51.310
And then Alicia, my friend from Truly Twisted, commented on
1537
01:18:51.390 --> 01:18:54.390
YouTube and said, another great episode, my girl, and even
1538
01:18:54.409 --> 01:18:57.390
more of a reason for me not to enter the water.
1539
01:18:58.210 --> 01:18:58.529
Agreed.
1540
01:19:00.729 --> 01:19:04.310
So if you guys enjoyed today's episode and you wanna
1541
01:19:04.529 --> 01:19:07.399
spread the word, help get the word out for Brittany Phillips,
1542
01:19:07.439 --> 01:19:11.720
for Maggie, share this story. Remember the spider effect. Five friends,
1543
01:19:11.779 --> 01:19:15.579
tell them to tell five friends. Drop some comments, like, share, interact.
1544
01:19:15.619 --> 01:19:19.420
It really helps so much. Go check out Unsolved Couple.
1545
01:19:20.000 --> 01:19:20.899
And I think.
1546
01:19:20.739 --> 01:19:25.039
That's all of my calls to action. But you all
1547
01:19:25.079 --> 01:19:28.239
are amazing. I hope you have a great week. Please
1548
01:19:28.430 --> 01:19:33.350
stay safe. And I will talk to you next week.
1549
01:19:33.369 --> 01:19:33.439
Bye.
1550
01:19:34.430 --> 01:19:38.609
Perplexity, a mystery podcast is hosted, written and produced by me,
1551
01:19:39.090 --> 01:19:41.810
Kedra Brannon. This show is proud to be a part
1552
01:19:41.869 --> 01:19:45.779
of the Black Cat Network. Editing is by myself and
1553
01:19:45.880 --> 01:19:50.470
Charlie Leopold. Theme song by Patrick Thompson. If you want
1554
01:19:50.609 --> 01:19:53.909
ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content, you can always
1555
01:19:53.949 --> 01:19:59.020
join the perplexed society at patreon.com slash perplexity mystery podcast.
1556
01:19:59.680 --> 01:20:02.260
If you have a topic request or a listener story,
1557
01:20:02.579 --> 01:20:07.239
you can always submit those to perplexity mystery podcast at gmail.com.
1558
01:20:07.880 --> 01:20:11.300
Business inquiries can be sent via email. Additional support links
1559
01:20:11.479 --> 01:20:14.359
along with merch can be found in the episode description.
1560
01:20:15.229 --> 01:20:17.609
Until next week, stay curious.