holly: Hey Amigas, I'm Holly Beck, founder of Surf with Amigas Women's Surf Coaching Retreats. Back in 2010, I retired from professional surfing and started hosting retreats because I wanted to live full-time in Central America. My favorite part of being a professional surfer had been traveling the world, having awesome adventures with other badass women, and I really didn't want to lose that. Surf with Amigas allows me to continue living the dream. Bouncing down dirt roads in beat-up trucks packed with surfboards, paddling out to fun waves with positive people, and then sitting around a table with good food and interesting, inspiring conversations. Second Breakfast, the podcast, is a way to share that connection, empowerment, and storytelling with the wider community, even in between retreats. So grab your favorite beverage and let's get into it.
Barbara: my product for me has such a purpose. I love what I do. I love that I have something that helps people to surf more free because that sense of freedom that you have when you know you're protected from the sun, also the eyes, you're in the shade so you can surf better, That's always for me this, you know, giving this freedom. I don't want to be like skin cancer, scary, you know, that's we all know about this. I then had a bucket where I put salt water in black sand and had, you know, like mashed up the different fabrics. had them sit for weeks in the sun and see how they perform, how the sand gets into the fabric. So was doing back then like my hands-on research. So I went the really long road. I didn't kind of say, okay, know, get someone in to develop this for me. I wanted to develop it.
holly: thank you barra for for connecting I am in favones and I think you are too is that right
Barbara: I meant that one as to Holly, good to see you again.
holly: Yeah, good to see you too. How long have you been here? 'Cause I know you bounce back and forth like I do.
Barbara: came back two months ago but I I pretty much live here full-time for 11 years now.
holly: Wow, crazy. I I feel like sometimes when I see you you're like, I just got back but maybe it's just because
Barbara: Yeah, I travel, but like since COVID, this is my home base. Yeah. Yeah.
holly: Nice. Awesome. And ha have you been surfing? Did you get in the water today?
Barbara: I went last week and I got an ear infection. You know the troubles we have here. So I'm trying to fight that off.
holly: Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, I went today to the beach break up the way and it was not very exciting, but I was able to surf with my kids, so th the nice thing about the the kids surfing is that at the at this rate, like where I'm at right now, like even if the waves aren't super fun, it's just like fun to go out and surf with them. So it helps get me in the water on days that otherwise I would not really be that interested.
Barbara: Exactly, and they get excited by anything, It's not like us. I've become
holly: That's right. Yeah, they're not very picky.
Barbara: so picky. I've become incredibly picky.
holly: I hear that. I feel that way too. So yeah, i that has been helpful. but anyway, I so I wanna hear and partly because I don't actually know myself, like can you tell your story of like where are you from originally and how did you get into surfing?
Barbara: Absolutely. I'm a late starter with surfing. So I'm German and I only started to surf the first time. It was exactly October 2012 was the first time I was in the water. Well, not the first time in the water, first time surfing. I had up to that, I had a very normal, boring life. Hi. So after finishing school, I went to the UK. I lived in London for 17 years and had a full-on corporate career, married live, long-term relationship. being very serious, know, being incredibly serious. And then things unfolded. I got a divorce. I was not enjoying work anymore. Like I spent my life just working. That was everything. And I decided to book a surf trip to Brazil by myself. And that was just three weeks. and it was the happiest I have ever been. I was obviously, first time surfing, I mean everything was hurting. I was incredibly bruised, I bruised very easily, so I was totally bruised, sunburned, exhausted but so happy, so energized and so free. But yeah, mean, it sounds so stupid, right? But it changed my life. So I went back to my normal career. And then I had, you know what? I need to resign. Then my boss said, no, no, take a sabbatical. Six months. And so I packed my bags, and I decided to surf the entire coast of Brazil. And when I say surfing, I was a total beginner. Like a total beginner. I was just floating around. I didn't even take surf classes. And I was just floating around, traveling by myself. I then ended up, yeah, my entire life suddenly was around surfing without, you know, being a surfer. I was a total cook. But somehow everything changed. Like, I suddenly, you know, even before that in London, I went to surf film festivals. I looked at, are there any dating sites for just surfers? Everything was suddenly, I even ordered a surf bikini from Costa Rica. had nothing to do with Costa Rica back then. I ordered a Bicoco bikini when they were really small. so everything suddenly was around surfing and without me having any skills to be but it just gave me freedom and happiness. So that's how I somehow got into it.
holly: That's such a great story. and is it something that you were even had been aware of when you were younger, but just felt like, no, I need to I need to be serious and I need to, you know, pursue these this corporate job and all that? Or or did you just like suddenly discover surfing when you were ready to do something different?
Barbara: So I rediscovered adventure. I was, as a child, was adventurous. I was a swimmer as well, so always liked the water. And I always liked the ocean. yeah, somehow I got London life sucked you into this, you know, in London called the rat race, you know, where you just care about promotion and like care about money and care about corporate career. And that all imploded. And suddenly I came back to being me again, you know, where like adventure came out. And for me, like, you know, booking that trip to Brazil was like a crazy thing to do. And but it felt it felt so energizing. And yet, for me, it was freedom. It was freedom. And being in the water, like surfing, it gave me that sense of nothing else matters. Everything I had been striving for before, like why bother? So yes, I always had the adventurous side in me, and I always had the water ocean side in me. But I didn't know about surfing before in my life, ever.
holly: So when you went to Brazil was the intention to surf or you just went to Brazil and then okay.
Barbara: Yes, I booked a surf trip. So that was for me like, my God, I'm going surfing. That sounded like the best thing I could do at this point in life. And it was. But yeah.
holly: So then you so you went back to the UK and your boss was like, Don't quit, take a sabbatical and then
Barbara: Yeah.
holly: after like at what point in the in the six months were you like, No, I can't go back?
Barbara: I went back. I went back after six months. So six months I spent in... mostly in Brazil, but also Panama and Costa Rica. And then I went back to my job and I tried so hard to fit in again. thought, Barbara, you can do this. Come on, you can do this. And after three months, I said, I cannot get back into my normal life. I just cannot. And I then decided that I would leave. I made an arrangement with my boss to stay another six months to finish a project. And then I packed my bags and I left for good. And so that was quite a, quite a, big jump right from a secure you know I had a good, I mean, the only thing is I had good savings. had a good income. So that allowed me to basically say, okay, and my plan was to just take time off, like at least a year. That was the plan. At least a year, just not do anything. I had the financial funds to do that. And so I moved from high, you know, intense job in London to a small town in Costa Rica. And I never looked back. And then there was a beach bum for two years. I was surfing every day. I didn't do anything. had no commitments whatsoever. And that was exactly what I needed back then. So I never ever felt guilty. I don't know how I managed that. I know so many people feel guilty. But I not once felt guilty. I really felt I deserved that. And I was happy. And that's all that mattered back then.
holly: And w was it hard to slow down? Like was it I I would imagine like if you're in this like high stress thing, but maybe maybe the challenge of learning to surf was like enough that it gave you that like good stuff.
Barbara: It gave me my purpose. My purpose was to surf. because then I had time, I always self-taught myself because I never had this, okay, now I have two weeks and I only need to learn. So I just took it easy I was never competitive in surfing. I was very competitive in my job, but in surfing, was always just, I was just so happy. And obviously I wanted to get better and I got better. But I was always just happy to be out there. even if I had bad days, wasn't, I never got frustrated that much. know many people get frustrated. I never had that. So somehow for me, this was a, yes, this sense of just happy in the ocean on my board and seeing whatever I can get. and a totally different personality that I am, you know, in work where I'm very dedicated in surfing somehow I let go of those ambitions, funnily enough. Yeah.
holly: Which is awesome because I I feel like a lot of people like they just take that work, you know, drive and like identity, like I have to be good at this, and then they just like bring that into surfing. So that's awesome that you were able to keep that separate. Like, no, in surfing I'm a different person.
Barbara: I tend to keep things separate. I'm a very extremist person, so I do everything or nothing. But in surfing, for me, everything was just to surf without necessarily pushing myself. And I remember meeting you at my very early days, and you always, I have a horrible pop-up. And you always said, Barbara, do you have an injury? I said, no, that's just the way I pop up. So I know there's so much I could do better. But I have somehow find my peace with being just happy in the ocean.
holly: And and after having spent so much time in Brazil and then it sounds like a little bit in Panama and Costa Rica, like did you know right away when you wanted to come back to live this life exactly where you wanted to be or or how did you choose where to go?
Barbara: So I was between Brazil and Costa Rica. Brazil, I love the culture, that vibrant, happy culture was fantastic. I spent a lot of time in Itacaré, which is like a surf town in Bahia, which the waves are shitty, to be honest, but the vibes there were beautiful and it was just, yeah, that happy vibe. So I liked that, but... I fell in love with Costa Rica for the wave. It was just a better wave and I'm a goofy and it just suited me better. And then on top Brazil can be more dangerous. you know, I did all that by myself, you know, I decided that Costa Rica, nice goofy wave, safe town, just made sense. So that was, yeah, it was a pretty easy decision to be honest. Yeah. And then I lived in...
holly: And what a contrast what a contrast from London to the
Barbara: Sorry? yes.
holly: end of the world, end of the road, you know, like remote Costa Rica.
Barbara: Yes, and from being like a high-driven career person to just, you know, I had a little, I had a bicycle, you know, just riding the bicycle down to check the waves. And that was my life. And yeah, and as I said, I never felt guilty. never... had any like sense of my god you should be doing more surfing was it and obviously you know nature I really I think I also like I don't know but maybe I was like close to a burnout or something like I definitely had nervous system regulation problems at work I mean it was high intensity and so I think here like this unwinding My body was happy, my mind was happy. I always thought, why do people do mindfulness? Because I was just relaxed. I surfed and I was in my hammock. sometimes just for an hour or two hours, I didn't do anything. I was never bored. I sometimes didn't even read a book. And it was, I think, my body just coming down. And I needed that time to really find my balance and find myself again.
holly: It it almost
Barbara: Yeah.
holly: seems like yeah, it was the thing that your your body had actually wanted because I think a lot of people, like we said, like people that I see that come on a trip and they think, my gosh, this is amazing, like this is what I need, but then you and I both know that the reality of living here is not just laying in a hammock, right? Like, yes, that's amazing that you do have the time and space to to do that and and that you can be comfortable in that and lean into that, but w as you make the transition into actually living here and you know all of the things. It's a really small community and finding a place to live or like a you know, eventually moving from the bicycle to like having a vehicle to be able to you know, all the life stuff. Like how was that? Like did you speak Spanish before you came here?
Barbara: Yes, I was always fluent in Spanish. I'm German so it's easy for us to speak languages because we have to learn them early on. I was fluent in Spanish, I wasn't a problem. So I had the transition then after one and half years where I felt, OK, this is not my body is good now. My mind is good. I obviously can't continue this forever. Like you need a purpose again. Like obviously the purpose to serve was fantastic. But then like. was missing and I obviously wanted to do something but I could not imagine going back into a corporate career and then I started to like already all these these two years I kind of started to slowly form the idea that some protection might be something missing in the market and so I played around with it. My corporate career was in management consulting and strategy and I was working bank and strategy. So I started to make business plans and so playing around with the idea. So I, it's now called Coyote Surf Hats, but back then it was just an idea of making a better surf hat. And I played around that for a long time. And after one and a half years, I slowly started to develop the idea. But then after two years, I said, okay, I'm going for this. And when I say I go for it, I go for it again, like extra like 100%. But my life is kind of all or nothing. And that's why I said from London to nothing for two years. And then it went quite high up again. And I'm now trying after several years of being quite high, I'm trying to find that middle ground, which for me is very, very difficult.
holly: Okay, so it it sounds like there is a combination of things 'cause I think like I my interpretation of your story before hearing this was like, okay, you were looking for a surf hat that worked well and you couldn't find one and so then you decided to like make one for yourself. So as you described the story then it was like also like, okay, I'm I've been chilling, I can only you know, I spent two years being quiet in a hammock and surfing, and now I need something to do. Which one was more? Was like was it equal fifty percent I need a good surf hat?
Barbara: It was equal because and again this is like the Such a cliche, like I couldn't find what I needed and I made my own. So that definitely came up. But then also with me, actually, I needed a purpose again. And it's somehow just lined up because the business case, like I did lots of market research. I myself like bought all the surf hats that were available at that time. And I tried them all. So I made so much market research and then like modeled all the different, you know, business cases. And realized there is a market here. and I need some time to find to do and I am quite passionate about it so it just aligned and that's why I then decided okay I need to go for it but yeah there was an equal needing to find something to do and the perfect thing just came and
holly: Awesome.
Barbara: yeah and but I mean It sounds great, but I had no clue how to do this because I knew how to write a business plan, but I had no experience in manufacturing and fabrics and execution. I could develop a strategy, but actually doing something had no idea. So it was...
holly: And what was that what was that learning curve like? Like when you were embarking upon that, was it like I can do this, if I can write the plan, then I can implement and then as you started doing it was harder than you expected?
Barbara: Yes, I went for it. I went for it. I actually, I then moved to Portugal for two years to set this up because I wanted to be in Europe, which was kind of my background when kind of, you know, starting a company. Also, yeah, like Europe is kind of very controlled when it comes to sustainability. So I felt more comfortable. again, like it was OK, if I moved to Europe, I need to be somewhere where can surf. Then, you know, Portugal has amazing manufacturing So it was all a theoretical decision, practical, very logical decision to move to Portugal. And I didn't know how to get started. I spoke some Portuguese, but Brazilian Portuguese, which is totally different to Portuguese Portuguese. And I had no, I didn't know anyone. I didn't know how to start but somehow... I just went step by step. was sometimes incredibly stressful because I woke up in the middle of the night, what the hell are you doing? But I just said, OK, Portugal. lived in Itisada, which is a beautiful surf town. It's close to Lisbon, which back then was the perfect freelancer hub for getting great talent at a decent price, because obviously I was bootstrapping everything. And then I, you know, went, I spoke to people and I kind of tried to go into my network that didn't work. So I just, for example, I found a found a sports designer through a contact who was helping me on the sports design, you know. But then I said, OK, I actually need a hat maker because I want I knew exactly what I wanted. Right. So I had all the different hats. I knew exactly the ingredients I needed to make the perfect surfer. So I said to myself, I'll make the perfect surfer. I then, for example, said, okay, I want someone who knows about head shapes and like really to make something that fits really well. So I I need a head maker. So I went to all the head shops in Lisbon. trying to see if someone maybe, you know, can help me. And to this one shop, went four times until I found the owner. And she then introduced me to a head maker, which was a, I think she's over 80. She was about 80 back then. and she helped me to make my first prototype. she had been doing hats all her life. So she knew about head shapes and everything. And so we developed with an 80-year-old lady, at least the fit, not the design, but the fit, that we have the perfect fit. And then I had...
holly: And as you're going to all these hat makers and you know you're speaking imperfect Portuguese and you're this blonde woman, you're like, I wanna make a surf hat Are they like looking at you like, What the heck are you doing?
Barbara: Of course, everyone thought like, you know, what are you doing? But this one lady who I went four times to her shop, I'm really good friends with her now because we ended up becoming great friends, you know, and she then introduced me to that lady. But I was, I'm very tenacious. If I want something, I try and try and try and try and try until I get it. And... And so, yeah, so then, for example, also like with fabrics, I went to Paris to one of the biggest fabric shows, you know, to get sample fabrics. And I didn't have a business card, nothing. And then I went to another one in Germany. So I tried to, you know, have these companies send me fabric samples. And it was even when I was still in Costa Rica. I then had a bucket where I put salt water in black sand and had, you know, like mashed up the different fabrics. had them sit for weeks in the sun and see how they perform, how the sand gets into the fabric. So was doing back then like my hands-on research. So I went the really long road. I didn't kind of say, okay, know, get someone in to develop this for me. I wanted to develop it. I wanted to develop it like bottom-up and it took me a long time. And then finding the manufacturer also was a nightmare. but in the end I had a great manufacturer who I could then, with my prototype, go to and together we developed. And again, this was like over 50 prototypes. And I can't... like I had so many sessions with them. We tried everything. We all cried together because I was never happy. know, like I'm like, I'm such a perfectionist and then like trial and error, trial and error, trial and error. When in the end I had a, okay, that's it. You know, I had the fabrics, I had the design to make it fit well. And then I had the sports designer to kind of also see how we can make it look nice, have the correct materials. And in the end I got prototype and I was happy with it.
holly: So, what were some of the things that were like very important to you? Like when you set out to make the perfect surf hat and you've tried all these other options that are available on the market, if you had to list like the top three or four things that you were like, it has to be this. Like, what was most important to you that you weren't finding in the other products on the market?
Barbara: it was top number one was definitely fit. Like it had to fit really well, not come off, not strangle you, not bother your vision. had to like fit like you basically can forget about it and it doesn't impair your surfing that you worry that you can't see like wear it and forget about it. That was the
holly: And then how are you deciding, like because like obviously, you know, fit in anything is so specific to each individual. So like if it fits Yeah. Okay.
Barbara: I the hat maker who knows about head shapes, you know? It's like if you use a standard hat, for example, like from the top, you know, you have like one to one and like we decided to make it deep in the back. So we all have this bone in the back so that you secure it below the bone. But top three. Number one,
holly: Yeah. Toughly.
Barbara: functionality. Number two is looks. most surf heads, now there are pretty options out there, but back then most surf heads were incredibly unflattering and like these big neoprene chin straps, like I always thought I was going horseback riding. So that was the second one and then the third one was quality, like I wanted a quality, you know, sustainable fabrics, something that lasts really long rather than just being a season. So those are my top three, but then there were many things in between all features that I wanted. Like for example that it's a multi-use product that you can you know strap away the chin straps and use it outside of the water. So I over obsessed on every single detail and step by step I got there and it was not just me I obviously spoke to many people along the way to surface right. So you know what you know why first of all why you're not wearing a surfer so what's the hurdle to wearing a surfer in the first place and then if you wear one what do like what you don't like. And so all these ingredients came together and then I had my first SanFed in the end. then obviously one thing is having a SanFed and then one thing is starting to sell them, right?
holly: Well, I I think I I just wanna say that like I also, you know, being a a blonde, you know, like kind of pale woman who is a little bit older because you look and you see like even these like white pale women in their twenties that like don't care at all. But you know, once you get thirty and up, then all of a sudden I think for most people then sun protection starts becoming more important. And so I had tried surf hats. I had worn, you know, FCS surf hats, I had worn was I think One that we were selling in the early days called Sunday morning. And like they they were like you said, they were ugly and they were uncomfortable. And like because they have like the big neoprene like chin strap, then you would get a weird tan so that when you weren't weren't wearing it, you'd have like this white like line under
Barbara: Yes.
holly: your chin, and and I also have a small head. And so one thing that I really didn't like is that a lot of the surf hats would sit really low, like right above my eyebrows. I would be constantly kind of like Yeah.
Barbara: and then flopping down and you can see here.
holly: And and when I first got one of your hats, I think one of the things that I noticed first was that number one, like some of like the really cool, like good surfers at Pavones were wearing them. So there was that like cool factor, like the local surfers were wearing them, which is definitely like your marketing, which I'm sure we'll get to. But also, when I first wore one, I liked that it didn't go down all the way to my eyebrows. I think you were starting to say, and I remember that always stuck with me, and it's something that I have like passed on when I tell people about why I like your hats, is that it's not as deep, I guess, in the forehead as it is in the back. So it feels really secure in the back, but it doesn't sit as low, which again, I guess everybody's head's different, but for my head, that works really well. And then I love the super thin chin strap. Like I just love that part about it. And then finally, when you're talking about like the bucket hat, the brim is stiff. Because even now, like we have. Amigas come on retreats and they're wearing like the bucket hat that sits down, and I feel like they can't see. Yeah,
Barbara: You can't see anything.
holly: there's no peripheral vision. And so when I first wore the bucket hat, it's like it has a really stiff brim that goes all the way around. So I feel like number one, you get a little better coverage because it's like sticking out, and then also like you come up from a duck dive and it's up, it's not like down in your face. So the very first time I tried one, I was just like immediately like, yes, this is the best, this is the best surface. Yeah.
Barbara: it was that was like me trying all the different ones and then finding the correct shape and the correct materials, right? So for example, like when we talk about the the peak, right, that it has a an arch. and we made 30 different shapes of arches because if it's too arched it will come the top will come down you know if it's not arched it will be totally straight so finding that perfect arch that it adjusts to your forehead and builds the perfect angle you know so these were the level of details we went into and then like the the material inside right so it has to be semi-soft What we have been using is a from a German factory also went to that factory and talked to them. It's a shoe inlay Foam which is used for shoe inlays, which is like great for recovery So, you know when you bend it it jumps up again and it doesn't absorb water that also makes the hat float But that has this perfect and it's stiff enough to stay up But when you're duck diving it doesn't create the resistance either depends on your your duck dive head position it either folds down or up and then when you pop up again it pops up again so that's all the level of details which is a combination of the materials you use and the shapes you create you know but yeah so those are all the level of details I can get a I get I get so excited I can get lost in all the level of details on this one
holly: So once you finally have your hat where you're like, okay, this is what I want, this is the perfect hat, then what was that next step like about going out to actually get them in the hands of consumers?
Barbara: So I first did an Indiegogo campaign to raise money that totally flopped. was basically my mom mostly supporting it. So I made my target. But I had at least a nice video done for that. So it was helpful for building some marketing. And then I assumed having a great product, that's it. It will sell. That's obviously not the case. And I launched on the 1st of March 2020. That's when my website went live. So just before COVID.
holly: no.
Barbara: It actually, it then suddenly it took off. You know, not great, but like I did, I I did invest it into ads that worked initially really well. You know, you reached more people. then also was very lucky because I was picked up by some, publications. I didn't pay for them. I was listed in the inertia, in the top surf hats, in outside magazine there was an article. I didn't approach them. I was very lucky. then advertising help, but it wasn't really, it was also very expensive. So I spent a lot of money and yes, I got more heads in, but I stopped that after two years. And then I was also like, I was a very small company. had one person in Portugal doing order for films. Everything was in-house, you know. I kept the small apartment where we had, what we use as a warehouse that was basically just full of head boxes. We had an account with the post office and with FedEx and then she did order fulfillment. Everything was just sold via Shopify. So it's a very small operations, but not really scalable. And then also I decided the ads were getting too expensive. we were very lucky or I was very lucky because word of mouth kept me afloat. And I mean, it's the best thing that you suddenly see people recommending them. I mean, also you guys, it's... people suddenly loved my hats and were helping me and tagging me. So it was a product. wasn't me. I am a terrible marketeer. that also then eventually, at the moment, the company is on a standstill. I'm going to explain a little bit why that is. But I will need to now, going forward, need to invest into someone who knows about marketing, because that's just not my strength. So yeah, mostly it was word of mouth and the product speaking for itself. That was... You know, getting me at least not I'm still a really small company. So I haven't grown crazily. But also the US was my main market by far. And I have no no idea why I didn't target them. It just all developed. so in a way, I was lucky that somehow, you know, we're selling and we're selling to all the countries in the world, but mostly the US. And then in last year was a really bad year for the business. the US, I couldn't send to the US anymore directly because there were some trade changes. I couldn't ship individual packages anymore.
holly: Which is the the tariff like not like doing away with the small package like tariff function?
Barbara: Exactly, it's called the de minimis. So I couldn't send that anymore. I, the manufacturer who I had in Portugal was like I managed to get into the best manufacturer in Portugal. But in the end, and that was great for product development, in the end it was an issue because I didn't grow fast enough and I was incredibly demanding and they said, Barbara, we can't work with you anymore. You are our smallest client, but you are our most demanding client. You take up far too much of our time because I always... You know, like wanting the perfect product, was like always, you know, asking so many questions. Never happy with that. Never happy with that. Can we change this? Can we do this? Like, so I was without a manufacturer. I was without my biggest market. I also had some personal issues. My dad passed away. see, the last year was a nightmare. It was a real nightmare. And I am...
holly: And and in that moment of like, okay, like there's all these I've got personal things going on and dealing with grief, I imagine, and then you lose your biggest market and the the company that's making your hats is like I can't do it anymore. Like at that point, was there ever a moment where you're like, What am I doing? Like why am I putting
Barbara: Ha!
holly: so much energy into this? Like, is this a sign from the universe?
Barbara: But then, you know, the next day I say, I'm not giving up. Like, you know, there's moments of self doubt and obviously like, you know, I'm human and like things haven't, I haven't reached the growth that I anticipated, you know, I haven't, you know, made the money I thought I would be making. So it's been, it's been really tough, but I always know that I am doing something that will eventually have success. So my business model, the potential of that is still there. I haven't managed to do this and I've failed in many ways of really on execution. If I look at myself now as a management consultant outside in, I would say, what the fuck are you doing? But that's reality. When you try to do it by yourself, it's hard. But then I said, you know, no, no, I'm going to do this. And also, I forgot to mention, I got skin cancer from swapping as well. So on my lips, I had skin cancer. And that was when I was doing product developments in the very beginning. So my product for me has such a purpose. I love what I do. I love that I have something that helps people to surf more free because that sense of freedom that you have when you know you're protected from the sun, also the eyes, you're in the shade so you can surf better, so you can surf better and longer. That's always for me this, you know, giving this freedom. I don't want to be like skin cancer, scary, you know, that's we all know about this. And so that kept me going. and then the other thing is my customers, you know? Like I sometimes have to some people who I know more closely, I don't think I can do this. Don't give up. This is the best surfer. Like you have to continue. And like the reviews I get, those things really, really kept me going. And so I am now very close to re-emerging. relaunching, well not relaunching, it will be the same product because like why rock the boat when something's working well, but like with a new manufacturer. And I have now a plan to, you know, have a solution for the US. will have a, I will open up a US warehouse. I'm outsourcing.
holly: I will say that like one of the things I mean that there's so many you know, pieces that you've innovated to surf hats. Like the the things that we mentioned before about the fit and the chin strap. And and I don't want to this to sound like an advertisement, but like really I believe in the product. I I as I said on very honestly like I do think it's the best hat out there and with the importance of protecting our skin and the comfort and staying in the water longer, like yes, hundred percent. And the visor. I remember when you first gave me the visor and you're like, well I don't know but like wouldn't it be cute to like you know have your your Bun out the top, and then you still get you know the nice blonde look on the top of your head, and I don't know if it's gonna stay on. And you know, almost all of our surf instructors at Surf with Amigas who are spending all day in the water, who are having to turtle roll and duck dive alongside you know the amigas, we're all wearing visors. Like it is all of our favorite. I don't know that there's anyone on the team that prefers the hat. Like everyone loves a visor, and me particularly, because I can wear the bun out the top and I I just think it looks cute. And and I don't think I don't know of another surpat with an examizer.
Barbara: I'm the only one. I'm the only one. again, this was the first of all, you guys all look so cute with it. I look horrible in the eyes. have funny hair. know, my hair is no, no, but my hair
holly: No, Eula, come on.
Barbara: is is is like it goes crazy. My hair. So that's actually one of the things the surf had prevents my hair from tangling. I used to have such badly tangled hair. Like every time I got out of the ocean, like I nearly had to cut my hair off, you know, so prevent preventing it from But anyway, you guys look amazing in the visor. The visor, I'm the only one in the market. And the difficulty there when we developed this was if you don't have the crown, it can slide down. So we then experimented. So me with a factory that was still with my original manufacturer. How can we do this that it doesn't come down? Because if it slides down when you duck dive over your eyes and you don't see. We have made a double closure in the back, right? this is a normal one that is there's no stretch anywhere in this one, which is the one that holds in place. You know, like all the other one you have like, we make it more comfortable. We put a bit little bit of stretch in it that underwater then widens and falls off or falls back and strangles you. We have made an addition that is elastic, but that's not the one that holds you in place. An additional elasticated here. So that double closure in the back and it has like a cone form so it's the top is smaller than the bottom makes it fit you know and not not not not not slide and you won't lose it but it can slide down and so I think that's why no one has developed that but then again I am so happy that there are now more surf head brands coming into the market because that's I am
holly: Are you really? That was one of the questions I was gonna ask you because I mean I feel like these days there're so many surf hats. Like, you know, originally it was like all the big, you know, FCS and like hat companies or surf companies, but now I feel like there's so many like small women owned I I'm getting word surf of the meagus gets hit up like very regularly with like my friend is doing this hat maybe you want to sell it or like the ones with the like helmet inserts that I'm surprised to hear you say that you're so happy. Like tell me more. Like how why are you happy there's more competitors.
Barbara: because I got in at the right point so I already have a brand name developed number one I have a patent on it, so no one can copy it. And I think the market is still so big for surf heads. When I went in, it was really like this big market, no one really doing something specific for it. So I think I was the only one who came in with a very functional surf head, with the only purpose making the best surf head. So I went in at the right time. I have now a developed brand. I found my niche. The market is gigantic. The more people who likes to wear surf hats, then they might want to try different brands. the fact that people, the first hurdle when I was starting was still people not wanting to wear a hat because they thought, my god, this doesn't look cool. I look like a cook. And now it's becoming a lot more commonplace to wear surf hats. And so other brands are helping me to overcome this hurdle. And then the market is big. share it and everyone has their own little niche. I am the only real technical surfer out there. So I found my niche and I'm happy with that. you know exactly, so there are some really pretty ones. They might even be cuter than mine. You know, they have like patterns. I deliberately didn't go down that route because I wanted timeless. So for me, everything was because my products last for such a long time. I can't do seasonal, you know, because then they are out of season. mean, some people say you need to have stuff that don't last that long because your business model doesn't add up. You know, you need to sell more to people. I sell, you know, I'm happy that my products last because that's sustainable. me, sustainability is having a product that lasts as long as it can. That's the most important thing on sustainability.
holly: well, one question I have is I wonder if part of what has made surf hats become more popular is just how the demographic of surfing is changing. Like whether it's that more women are surfing who like
Barbara: Peace.
holly: don't care as much about cool not that women don't care about cool. Of course we care about cool, but like what is cool is also like protecting oneself. Like back in the day, like it wasn't that long ago that you would never wear leggings to surf. You know, and now like
Barbara: It's a lot about self care, right? Yeah.
holly: Yeah, so healthcare is cool. But I wonder what is the percentage of women versus men that are buying I mean your your hats are gender neutral, right? Like they're not for women, they're not surf hats for women or surf hats for men, they're just surf hats and Do you know how many are women versus men? Really? nice.
Barbara: It's 50-50. It's 50-50. It's 50-50. And I mean, we know that the women element in surfing is growing a lot faster. And it's hard, right? So on the one hand, it's great to have a unisex brand because you get both demographics. But in terms of marketing, it's really difficult to speak to both. So for example, for... Women, talk a lot more about self-care, but also performance. For men, it's often depends. If they're older and they get bold, yes, easy. But younger male surfer, there it's more about having better vision, being able to see better. so that surfing, longer surfing, better, which applies to many women as well. But for women, it's easier on top of that to also have some protection self-care element. I have also like I have, yeah, it's definitely 50-50, but it's easier, I think, to sell to women because they. they do want to look better. I mean, I have some photos of friends having their face completely covered white. So if you wear a surfer that sort of looks okay, you actually look better than having a white cast face.
holly: White face, I agree. I've never been into the whiteface look myself. Well, I as I'm hearing you, you know, all of the struggles that you've gone through and like the dedication and and knowing how much time that takes as like an individual with maybe one helper, I wonder if at some point you lose that feeling of freedom that you originally like moved to Central America to have. Like how do you start feeling like you're in the corporate rat race,
Barbara: I am definitely not as chilled anymore. I don't serve that much anymore. I sometimes feel anxious as well about my future because obviously all my great savings, all my life savings, have put everything, it's all bootstrapped, I've put everything into this. But I still really... love what I do because that's what I told you for this purpose like it's it's not a fashion product you know it's it's really perhaps and it's linked to health, it's linked to happiness because for me surfing is happiness and I can spread that and like hearing you know my customers die rather directly or someone who I don't know who suddenly writes a super nice review that keeps me going and Obviously, I hope what I said before, I hope I will find this from extreme, you know, finding a way. I now need to push really hard in the next few months, but I'm I'm hoping that eventually I will find this balance of continuing to do what I love, but have a little bit more freedom again. And that's the thing, you know, when you start your own business and I'm now all by myself, I don't even have anyone, it's just me right now, but I will. higher once I restock. So yes, sometimes I wish, you know, I think about the good old times when I didn't have anything to do, but then I think even further back and when I was sitting in a corporate office, I'm still so happy, so much better what I'm doing now. So I don't really, I would never do anything else. would... I wouldn't even have done it differently because if I hadn't gone the long road to develop everything by myself and do it slowly, like also if I had like, you know, straight away hired a gigantic team, I wouldn't, there were mistakes, you know, when you launch a company that if I had been too big by then it would have been disastrous. So being small sometimes gives you also more room for mistakes. and so I wouldn't have done anything differently. Not at all. And yeah, shit happens. It has been really hard. There hasn't been anything has been easy in this road. I've had so many roadblocks, like, you know, even the trademark, had like legal complaints when I tried to get my trademark through. need to have to pay people off to allow me to even travel to the US to try to convince someone to give to to allow me to get my trademark. So like crazy, crazy things. And then with a patent also like so much so much trouble to get there. And I think everything I did was difficult. But that made it even more something I want to do. And I think eventually this will all pay off. That's my belief.
holly: And yeah, and you'd have to have that belief in order to continue pursuing
Barbara: Yeah, otherwise, yeah. And then again, yes, there are times when I suddenly think, my god, you need to get a normal job again. But that doesn't last very long. My belief and my passion for what I do is stronger. Yes, I want to have more time to again. And I basically only surf weekends now. Unless it's really, like I said before, I've become quite picky. So when it's great, I go surfing. But otherwise, I reserve it to weekends because I have too much to do. if I don't do it now, like I think if I work really hard now, then eventually, you know, I will find my balance somehow.
holly: Yeah, and and I I I hope that you I feel like I see some like common elements between us and some of the stories that you've told and and I know for myself that I mean I I you you did show that you could go from crazy busy to like super chill, but I feel like for myself it's like I'm always saying like, i after this week or like after this month or once the season ends then the things are gonna slow down. In fact, Jackie actually got me This hat that said, What does it say? Like after this week things will chill out because it's like a
Barbara: Haha
holly: But like you never you never get there because once you get past that next hurdle then there's like the next one and there's always something. But I know that you are coming into a good time. So can you talk about the hats? Have not been available, it's all sold out on the website. I think in our Circuit Amigas boutique, I had somebody asking about hats yesterday and there was four left. You know, then then that's it. There's no more. But but the restock is coming soon.
Barbara: I'm, the research is coming, so I found, I looked for the right manufacturer for two years. I had prototypes done everywhere in the world and... they were just never good enough. you you think it shouldn't be that I have like, I have all the technical files, you know, like, how like the pattern and how they're made and everything. So anyone should be able to copy it. And the guests, they fit well, but like the details didn't they never met my standards. And so so many different factories in so many different countries where I had to ship the fabrics too, with everything, have the NDA signed, always came back, no, no, no, no, no. And I found, finally in March, I found the perfect manufacturer. They're no longer in Europe. Europe, I tried everywhere, but they will be in Taiwan, which I'm very excited about. Taiwan is actually, I haven't physically, I didn't physically went to see them, but Taiwan is pretty amazing. So it's quite a step up from China and the factory, they were amazing. So the prototypes are like top notch, great quality. And so yeah, I will, Next week, I'm getting the final round of prototypes for sign-off and then we're going to production. then I will, so I'm going to, at the moment it's just me and I'm outsourcing. So I'm outsourcing distribution. I will have a fulfillment center in Europe and one in the US so that all the US customers don't have to worry about import taxes. It's fast. It's a no-brainer. So we'll make it a lot easier. And I will also start, that's the one benefit of Europe was also my manufacture in Europe was getting so expensive the costs had more than doubled so my margin was although I'm premium priced my margins were tiny so now with Taiwanese production I will finally be able to go into wholesale as well so I will slowly slowly start to see if I can get into some very selected surf shops you know so this won't be like going everywhere I will select them well so I will create some volume because I need volume I need more volume. I need to grow. If I want to survive, I need to grow. And so yeah, I will get some marketing help. I know you guys have been always such great supporters. I'm so incredibly grateful. Like so many Amigas on your team. Like actually I have to do a shout out as well to Leila in Mexico. She was the one who always said, I want a visor, I want a visor. So. Yeah, like Angie, like, you know, in my first official photo shoot, you know, she was she was one of second official for she was helping out. then, you know, I mean, everyone, Shelly, you then Chloe also like, I don't know, Jackie, everyone has been fantastic. And I felt so supported. And particularly now, you know, times have been tough. The last year has been really, really hard. And So that really gets me going. so yeah, influencer marketing is definitely something I need to pick up. But I'm I, for example, personally, I hate Instagram. I can't deal with it. So I need to get help on that on that front. So, yes, I will select, you know, support where I need it. But obviously, I will remain a very lean company. I am a very small company. And then once things I definitely want to go into product development again. So I have some ideas up my sleeve of what else I can do and I'm very excited about that.
holly: Awesome. Well, I I am too. And yeah, I just want to say like what everything that Surf with Amigas believes in is like women supporting women and and helping each other grow and achieve one another's dreams. Like whether that's like getting your first barrel or nose right or making the perfect surf hat and if it we can it can benefit us too and our clients and even better. So if you're listening to this and you're in the market for a surf hat or you're coming on a retreat soon, then definitely Kayola is the best out there and not just Because we love you, Barbara, but actually we love the hats. And I'm so grateful
Barbara: Thank you.
holly: for you to share those stories. I think it's really inspirational, just like the whole trajectory of realizing that you're you're not feeling healthy in the rat race and moving to the jungle and really leaning into that time of rest and discovering what's next. And then once you've found it, just like charging full steam ahead and jumping over all the hurdles. So it thank you so much
Barbara: Thank you for having me. Always inspirational, Holly, what you guys are doing. I definitely think women supporting women is the only way to go. Although I'm a unisex brand, it's hard for me to speak to men sometimes. It's a lot easier for me to communicate and sell to women. I think that's so much easier and so much more fun for me as well. have to admit.
holly: It's the best hat on the market. We'll just leave it at that.
Barbara: my product for me has such a purpose. I love what I do. I love that I have something that helps people to surf more free because that sense of freedom that you have when you know you're protected from the sun, also the eyes, you're in the shade so you can surf better, That's always for me this, you know, giving this freedom. I don't want to be like skin cancer, scary, you know, that's we all know about this. I then had a bucket where I put salt water in black sand and had, you know, like mashed up the different fabrics. had them sit for weeks in the sun and see how they perform, how the sand gets into the fabric. So was doing back then like my hands-on research. So I went the really long road. I didn't kind of say, okay, know, get someone in to develop this for me. I wanted to develop it.
holly: thank you barra for for connecting I am in favones and I think you are too is that right
Barbara: I meant that one as to Holly, good to see you again.
holly: Yeah, good to see you too. How long have you been here? 'Cause I know you bounce back and forth like I do.
Barbara: came back two months ago but I I pretty much live here full-time for 11 years now.
holly: Wow, crazy. I I feel like sometimes when I see you you're like, I just got back but maybe it's just because
Barbara: Yeah, I travel, but like since COVID, this is my home base. Yeah. Yeah.
holly: Nice. Awesome. And ha have you been surfing? Did you get in the water today?
Barbara: I went last week and I got an ear infection. You know the troubles we have here. So I'm trying to fight that off.
holly: Yeah, fair enough. Yeah, I went today to the beach break up the way and it was not very exciting, but I was able to surf with my kids, so th the nice thing about the the kids surfing is that at the at this rate, like where I'm at right now, like even if the waves aren't super fun, it's just like fun to go out and surf with them. So it helps get me in the water on days that otherwise I would not really be that interested.
Barbara: Exactly, and they get excited by anything, It's not like us. I've become
holly: That's right. Yeah, they're not very picky.
Barbara: so picky. I've become incredibly picky.
holly: I hear that. I feel that way too. So yeah, i that has been helpful. but anyway, I so I wanna hear and partly because I don't actually know myself, like can you tell your story of like where are you from originally and how did you get into surfing?
Barbara: Absolutely. I'm a late starter with surfing. So I'm German and I only started to surf the first time. It was exactly October 2012 was the first time I was in the water. Well, not the first time in the water, first time surfing. I had up to that, I had a very normal, boring life. Hi. So after finishing school, I went to the UK. I lived in London for 17 years and had a full-on corporate career, married live, long-term relationship. being very serious, know, being incredibly serious. And then things unfolded. I got a divorce. I was not enjoying work anymore. Like I spent my life just working. That was everything. And I decided to book a surf trip to Brazil by myself. And that was just three weeks. and it was the happiest I have ever been. I was obviously, first time surfing, I mean everything was hurting. I was incredibly bruised, I bruised very easily, so I was totally bruised, sunburned, exhausted but so happy, so energized and so free. But yeah, mean, it sounds so stupid, right? But it changed my life. So I went back to my normal career. And then I had, you know what? I need to resign. Then my boss said, no, no, take a sabbatical. Six months. And so I packed my bags, and I decided to surf the entire coast of Brazil. And when I say surfing, I was a total beginner. Like a total beginner. I was just floating around. I didn't even take surf classes. And I was just floating around, traveling by myself. I then ended up, yeah, my entire life suddenly was around surfing without, you know, being a surfer. I was a total cook. But somehow everything changed. Like, I suddenly, you know, even before that in London, I went to surf film festivals. I looked at, are there any dating sites for just surfers? Everything was suddenly, I even ordered a surf bikini from Costa Rica. had nothing to do with Costa Rica back then. I ordered a Bicoco bikini when they were really small. so everything suddenly was around surfing and without me having any skills to be but it just gave me freedom and happiness. So that's how I somehow got into it.
holly: That's such a great story. and is it something that you were even had been aware of when you were younger, but just felt like, no, I need to I need to be serious and I need to, you know, pursue these this corporate job and all that? Or or did you just like suddenly discover surfing when you were ready to do something different?
Barbara: So I rediscovered adventure. I was, as a child, was adventurous. I was a swimmer as well, so always liked the water. And I always liked the ocean. yeah, somehow I got London life sucked you into this, you know, in London called the rat race, you know, where you just care about promotion and like care about money and care about corporate career. And that all imploded. And suddenly I came back to being me again, you know, where like adventure came out. And for me, like, you know, booking that trip to Brazil was like a crazy thing to do. And but it felt it felt so energizing. And yet, for me, it was freedom. It was freedom. And being in the water, like surfing, it gave me that sense of nothing else matters. Everything I had been striving for before, like why bother? So yes, I always had the adventurous side in me, and I always had the water ocean side in me. But I didn't know about surfing before in my life, ever.
holly: So when you went to Brazil was the intention to surf or you just went to Brazil and then okay.
Barbara: Yes, I booked a surf trip. So that was for me like, my God, I'm going surfing. That sounded like the best thing I could do at this point in life. And it was. But yeah.
holly: So then you so you went back to the UK and your boss was like, Don't quit, take a sabbatical and then
Barbara: Yeah.
holly: after like at what point in the in the six months were you like, No, I can't go back?
Barbara: I went back. I went back after six months. So six months I spent in... mostly in Brazil, but also Panama and Costa Rica. And then I went back to my job and I tried so hard to fit in again. thought, Barbara, you can do this. Come on, you can do this. And after three months, I said, I cannot get back into my normal life. I just cannot. And I then decided that I would leave. I made an arrangement with my boss to stay another six months to finish a project. And then I packed my bags and I left for good. And so that was quite a, quite a, big jump right from a secure you know I had a good, I mean, the only thing is I had good savings. had a good income. So that allowed me to basically say, okay, and my plan was to just take time off, like at least a year. That was the plan. At least a year, just not do anything. I had the financial funds to do that. And so I moved from high, you know, intense job in London to a small town in Costa Rica. And I never looked back. And then there was a beach bum for two years. I was surfing every day. I didn't do anything. had no commitments whatsoever. And that was exactly what I needed back then. So I never ever felt guilty. I don't know how I managed that. I know so many people feel guilty. But I not once felt guilty. I really felt I deserved that. And I was happy. And that's all that mattered back then.
holly: And w was it hard to slow down? Like was it I I would imagine like if you're in this like high stress thing, but maybe maybe the challenge of learning to surf was like enough that it gave you that like good stuff.
Barbara: It gave me my purpose. My purpose was to surf. because then I had time, I always self-taught myself because I never had this, okay, now I have two weeks and I only need to learn. So I just took it easy I was never competitive in surfing. I was very competitive in my job, but in surfing, was always just, I was just so happy. And obviously I wanted to get better and I got better. But I was always just happy to be out there. even if I had bad days, wasn't, I never got frustrated that much. know many people get frustrated. I never had that. So somehow for me, this was a, yes, this sense of just happy in the ocean on my board and seeing whatever I can get. and a totally different personality that I am, you know, in work where I'm very dedicated in surfing somehow I let go of those ambitions, funnily enough. Yeah.
holly: Which is awesome because I I feel like a lot of people like they just take that work, you know, drive and like identity, like I have to be good at this, and then they just like bring that into surfing. So that's awesome that you were able to keep that separate. Like, no, in surfing I'm a different person.
Barbara: I tend to keep things separate. I'm a very extremist person, so I do everything or nothing. But in surfing, for me, everything was just to surf without necessarily pushing myself. And I remember meeting you at my very early days, and you always, I have a horrible pop-up. And you always said, Barbara, do you have an injury? I said, no, that's just the way I pop up. So I know there's so much I could do better. But I have somehow find my peace with being just happy in the ocean.
holly: And and after having spent so much time in Brazil and then it sounds like a little bit in Panama and Costa Rica, like did you know right away when you wanted to come back to live this life exactly where you wanted to be or or how did you choose where to go?
Barbara: So I was between Brazil and Costa Rica. Brazil, I love the culture, that vibrant, happy culture was fantastic. I spent a lot of time in Itacaré, which is like a surf town in Bahia, which the waves are shitty, to be honest, but the vibes there were beautiful and it was just, yeah, that happy vibe. So I liked that, but... I fell in love with Costa Rica for the wave. It was just a better wave and I'm a goofy and it just suited me better. And then on top Brazil can be more dangerous. you know, I did all that by myself, you know, I decided that Costa Rica, nice goofy wave, safe town, just made sense. So that was, yeah, it was a pretty easy decision to be honest. Yeah. And then I lived in...
holly: And what a contrast what a contrast from London to the
Barbara: Sorry? yes.
holly: end of the world, end of the road, you know, like remote Costa Rica.
Barbara: Yes, and from being like a high-driven career person to just, you know, I had a little, I had a bicycle, you know, just riding the bicycle down to check the waves. And that was my life. And yeah, and as I said, I never felt guilty. never... had any like sense of my god you should be doing more surfing was it and obviously you know nature I really I think I also like I don't know but maybe I was like close to a burnout or something like I definitely had nervous system regulation problems at work I mean it was high intensity and so I think here like this unwinding My body was happy, my mind was happy. I always thought, why do people do mindfulness? Because I was just relaxed. I surfed and I was in my hammock. sometimes just for an hour or two hours, I didn't do anything. I was never bored. I sometimes didn't even read a book. And it was, I think, my body just coming down. And I needed that time to really find my balance and find myself again.
holly: It it almost
Barbara: Yeah.
holly: seems like yeah, it was the thing that your your body had actually wanted because I think a lot of people, like we said, like people that I see that come on a trip and they think, my gosh, this is amazing, like this is what I need, but then you and I both know that the reality of living here is not just laying in a hammock, right? Like, yes, that's amazing that you do have the time and space to to do that and and that you can be comfortable in that and lean into that, but w as you make the transition into actually living here and you know all of the things. It's a really small community and finding a place to live or like a you know, eventually moving from the bicycle to like having a vehicle to be able to you know, all the life stuff. Like how was that? Like did you speak Spanish before you came here?
Barbara: Yes, I was always fluent in Spanish. I'm German so it's easy for us to speak languages because we have to learn them early on. I was fluent in Spanish, I wasn't a problem. So I had the transition then after one and half years where I felt, OK, this is not my body is good now. My mind is good. I obviously can't continue this forever. Like you need a purpose again. Like obviously the purpose to serve was fantastic. But then like. was missing and I obviously wanted to do something but I could not imagine going back into a corporate career and then I started to like already all these these two years I kind of started to slowly form the idea that some protection might be something missing in the market and so I played around with it. My corporate career was in management consulting and strategy and I was working bank and strategy. So I started to make business plans and so playing around with the idea. So I, it's now called Coyote Surf Hats, but back then it was just an idea of making a better surf hat. And I played around that for a long time. And after one and a half years, I slowly started to develop the idea. But then after two years, I said, okay, I'm going for this. And when I say I go for it, I go for it again, like extra like 100%. But my life is kind of all or nothing. And that's why I said from London to nothing for two years. And then it went quite high up again. And I'm now trying after several years of being quite high, I'm trying to find that middle ground, which for me is very, very difficult.
holly: Okay, so it it sounds like there is a combination of things 'cause I think like I my interpretation of your story before hearing this was like, okay, you were looking for a surf hat that worked well and you couldn't find one and so then you decided to like make one for yourself. So as you described the story then it was like also like, okay, I'm I've been chilling, I can only you know, I spent two years being quiet in a hammock and surfing, and now I need something to do. Which one was more? Was like was it equal fifty percent I need a good surf hat?
Barbara: It was equal because and again this is like the Such a cliche, like I couldn't find what I needed and I made my own. So that definitely came up. But then also with me, actually, I needed a purpose again. And it's somehow just lined up because the business case, like I did lots of market research. I myself like bought all the surf hats that were available at that time. And I tried them all. So I made so much market research and then like modeled all the different, you know, business cases. And realized there is a market here. and I need some time to find to do and I am quite passionate about it so it just aligned and that's why I then decided okay I need to go for it but yeah there was an equal needing to find something to do and the perfect thing just came and
holly: Awesome.
Barbara: yeah and but I mean It sounds great, but I had no clue how to do this because I knew how to write a business plan, but I had no experience in manufacturing and fabrics and execution. I could develop a strategy, but actually doing something had no idea. So it was...
holly: And what was that what was that learning curve like? Like when you were embarking upon that, was it like I can do this, if I can write the plan, then I can implement and then as you started doing it was harder than you expected?
Barbara: Yes, I went for it. I went for it. I actually, I then moved to Portugal for two years to set this up because I wanted to be in Europe, which was kind of my background when kind of, you know, starting a company. Also, yeah, like Europe is kind of very controlled when it comes to sustainability. So I felt more comfortable. again, like it was OK, if I moved to Europe, I need to be somewhere where can surf. Then, you know, Portugal has amazing manufacturing So it was all a theoretical decision, practical, very logical decision to move to Portugal. And I didn't know how to get started. I spoke some Portuguese, but Brazilian Portuguese, which is totally different to Portuguese Portuguese. And I had no, I didn't know anyone. I didn't know how to start but somehow... I just went step by step. was sometimes incredibly stressful because I woke up in the middle of the night, what the hell are you doing? But I just said, OK, Portugal. lived in Itisada, which is a beautiful surf town. It's close to Lisbon, which back then was the perfect freelancer hub for getting great talent at a decent price, because obviously I was bootstrapping everything. And then I, you know, went, I spoke to people and I kind of tried to go into my network that didn't work. So I just, for example, I found a found a sports designer through a contact who was helping me on the sports design, you know. But then I said, OK, I actually need a hat maker because I want I knew exactly what I wanted. Right. So I had all the different hats. I knew exactly the ingredients I needed to make the perfect surfer. So I said to myself, I'll make the perfect surfer. I then, for example, said, okay, I want someone who knows about head shapes and like really to make something that fits really well. So I I need a head maker. So I went to all the head shops in Lisbon. trying to see if someone maybe, you know, can help me. And to this one shop, went four times until I found the owner. And she then introduced me to a head maker, which was a, I think she's over 80. She was about 80 back then. and she helped me to make my first prototype. she had been doing hats all her life. So she knew about head shapes and everything. And so we developed with an 80-year-old lady, at least the fit, not the design, but the fit, that we have the perfect fit. And then I had...
holly: And as you're going to all these hat makers and you know you're speaking imperfect Portuguese and you're this blonde woman, you're like, I wanna make a surf hat Are they like looking at you like, What the heck are you doing?
Barbara: Of course, everyone thought like, you know, what are you doing? But this one lady who I went four times to her shop, I'm really good friends with her now because we ended up becoming great friends, you know, and she then introduced me to that lady. But I was, I'm very tenacious. If I want something, I try and try and try and try and try until I get it. And... And so, yeah, so then, for example, also like with fabrics, I went to Paris to one of the biggest fabric shows, you know, to get sample fabrics. And I didn't have a business card, nothing. And then I went to another one in Germany. So I tried to, you know, have these companies send me fabric samples. And it was even when I was still in Costa Rica. I then had a bucket where I put salt water in black sand and had, you know, like mashed up the different fabrics. had them sit for weeks in the sun and see how they perform, how the sand gets into the fabric. So was doing back then like my hands-on research. So I went the really long road. I didn't kind of say, okay, know, get someone in to develop this for me. I wanted to develop it. I wanted to develop it like bottom-up and it took me a long time. And then finding the manufacturer also was a nightmare. but in the end I had a great manufacturer who I could then, with my prototype, go to and together we developed. And again, this was like over 50 prototypes. And I can't... like I had so many sessions with them. We tried everything. We all cried together because I was never happy. know, like I'm like, I'm such a perfectionist and then like trial and error, trial and error, trial and error. When in the end I had a, okay, that's it. You know, I had the fabrics, I had the design to make it fit well. And then I had the sports designer to kind of also see how we can make it look nice, have the correct materials. And in the end I got prototype and I was happy with it.
holly: So, what were some of the things that were like very important to you? Like when you set out to make the perfect surf hat and you've tried all these other options that are available on the market, if you had to list like the top three or four things that you were like, it has to be this. Like, what was most important to you that you weren't finding in the other products on the market?
Barbara: it was top number one was definitely fit. Like it had to fit really well, not come off, not strangle you, not bother your vision. had to like fit like you basically can forget about it and it doesn't impair your surfing that you worry that you can't see like wear it and forget about it. That was the
holly: And then how are you deciding, like because like obviously, you know, fit in anything is so specific to each individual. So like if it fits Yeah. Okay.
Barbara: I the hat maker who knows about head shapes, you know? It's like if you use a standard hat, for example, like from the top, you know, you have like one to one and like we decided to make it deep in the back. So we all have this bone in the back so that you secure it below the bone. But top three. Number one,
holly: Yeah. Toughly.
Barbara: functionality. Number two is looks. most surf heads, now there are pretty options out there, but back then most surf heads were incredibly unflattering and like these big neoprene chin straps, like I always thought I was going horseback riding. So that was the second one and then the third one was quality, like I wanted a quality, you know, sustainable fabrics, something that lasts really long rather than just being a season. So those are my top three, but then there were many things in between all features that I wanted. Like for example that it's a multi-use product that you can you know strap away the chin straps and use it outside of the water. So I over obsessed on every single detail and step by step I got there and it was not just me I obviously spoke to many people along the way to surface right. So you know what you know why first of all why you're not wearing a surfer so what's the hurdle to wearing a surfer in the first place and then if you wear one what do like what you don't like. And so all these ingredients came together and then I had my first SanFed in the end. then obviously one thing is having a SanFed and then one thing is starting to sell them, right?
holly: Well, I I think I I just wanna say that like I also, you know, being a a blonde, you know, like kind of pale woman who is a little bit older because you look and you see like even these like white pale women in their twenties that like don't care at all. But you know, once you get thirty and up, then all of a sudden I think for most people then sun protection starts becoming more important. And so I had tried surf hats. I had worn, you know, FCS surf hats, I had worn was I think One that we were selling in the early days called Sunday morning. And like they they were like you said, they were ugly and they were uncomfortable. And like because they have like the big neoprene like chin strap, then you would get a weird tan so that when you weren't weren't wearing it, you'd have like this white like line under
Barbara: Yes.
holly: your chin, and and I also have a small head. And so one thing that I really didn't like is that a lot of the surf hats would sit really low, like right above my eyebrows. I would be constantly kind of like Yeah.
Barbara: and then flopping down and you can see here.
holly: And and when I first got one of your hats, I think one of the things that I noticed first was that number one, like some of like the really cool, like good surfers at Pavones were wearing them. So there was that like cool factor, like the local surfers were wearing them, which is definitely like your marketing, which I'm sure we'll get to. But also, when I first wore one, I liked that it didn't go down all the way to my eyebrows. I think you were starting to say, and I remember that always stuck with me, and it's something that I have like passed on when I tell people about why I like your hats, is that it's not as deep, I guess, in the forehead as it is in the back. So it feels really secure in the back, but it doesn't sit as low, which again, I guess everybody's head's different, but for my head, that works really well. And then I love the super thin chin strap. Like I just love that part about it. And then finally, when you're talking about like the bucket hat, the brim is stiff. Because even now, like we have. Amigas come on retreats and they're wearing like the bucket hat that sits down, and I feel like they can't see. Yeah,
Barbara: You can't see anything.
holly: there's no peripheral vision. And so when I first wore the bucket hat, it's like it has a really stiff brim that goes all the way around. So I feel like number one, you get a little better coverage because it's like sticking out, and then also like you come up from a duck dive and it's up, it's not like down in your face. So the very first time I tried one, I was just like immediately like, yes, this is the best, this is the best surface. Yeah.
Barbara: it was that was like me trying all the different ones and then finding the correct shape and the correct materials, right? So for example, like when we talk about the the peak, right, that it has a an arch. and we made 30 different shapes of arches because if it's too arched it will come the top will come down you know if it's not arched it will be totally straight so finding that perfect arch that it adjusts to your forehead and builds the perfect angle you know so these were the level of details we went into and then like the the material inside right so it has to be semi-soft What we have been using is a from a German factory also went to that factory and talked to them. It's a shoe inlay Foam which is used for shoe inlays, which is like great for recovery So, you know when you bend it it jumps up again and it doesn't absorb water that also makes the hat float But that has this perfect and it's stiff enough to stay up But when you're duck diving it doesn't create the resistance either depends on your your duck dive head position it either folds down or up and then when you pop up again it pops up again so that's all the level of details which is a combination of the materials you use and the shapes you create you know but yeah so those are all the level of details I can get a I get I get so excited I can get lost in all the level of details on this one
holly: So once you finally have your hat where you're like, okay, this is what I want, this is the perfect hat, then what was that next step like about going out to actually get them in the hands of consumers?
Barbara: So I first did an Indiegogo campaign to raise money that totally flopped. was basically my mom mostly supporting it. So I made my target. But I had at least a nice video done for that. So it was helpful for building some marketing. And then I assumed having a great product, that's it. It will sell. That's obviously not the case. And I launched on the 1st of March 2020. That's when my website went live. So just before COVID.
holly: no.
Barbara: It actually, it then suddenly it took off. You know, not great, but like I did, I I did invest it into ads that worked initially really well. You know, you reached more people. then also was very lucky because I was picked up by some, publications. I didn't pay for them. I was listed in the inertia, in the top surf hats, in outside magazine there was an article. I didn't approach them. I was very lucky. then advertising help, but it wasn't really, it was also very expensive. So I spent a lot of money and yes, I got more heads in, but I stopped that after two years. And then I was also like, I was a very small company. had one person in Portugal doing order for films. Everything was in-house, you know. I kept the small apartment where we had, what we use as a warehouse that was basically just full of head boxes. We had an account with the post office and with FedEx and then she did order fulfillment. Everything was just sold via Shopify. So it's a very small operations, but not really scalable. And then also I decided the ads were getting too expensive. we were very lucky or I was very lucky because word of mouth kept me afloat. And I mean, it's the best thing that you suddenly see people recommending them. I mean, also you guys, it's... people suddenly loved my hats and were helping me and tagging me. So it was a product. wasn't me. I am a terrible marketeer. that also then eventually, at the moment, the company is on a standstill. I'm going to explain a little bit why that is. But I will need to now, going forward, need to invest into someone who knows about marketing, because that's just not my strength. So yeah, mostly it was word of mouth and the product speaking for itself. That was... You know, getting me at least not I'm still a really small company. So I haven't grown crazily. But also the US was my main market by far. And I have no no idea why I didn't target them. It just all developed. so in a way, I was lucky that somehow, you know, we're selling and we're selling to all the countries in the world, but mostly the US. And then in last year was a really bad year for the business. the US, I couldn't send to the US anymore directly because there were some trade changes. I couldn't ship individual packages anymore.
holly: Which is the the tariff like not like doing away with the small package like tariff function?
Barbara: Exactly, it's called the de minimis. So I couldn't send that anymore. I, the manufacturer who I had in Portugal was like I managed to get into the best manufacturer in Portugal. But in the end, and that was great for product development, in the end it was an issue because I didn't grow fast enough and I was incredibly demanding and they said, Barbara, we can't work with you anymore. You are our smallest client, but you are our most demanding client. You take up far too much of our time because I always... You know, like wanting the perfect product, was like always, you know, asking so many questions. Never happy with that. Never happy with that. Can we change this? Can we do this? Like, so I was without a manufacturer. I was without my biggest market. I also had some personal issues. My dad passed away. see, the last year was a nightmare. It was a real nightmare. And I am...
holly: And and in that moment of like, okay, like there's all these I've got personal things going on and dealing with grief, I imagine, and then you lose your biggest market and the the company that's making your hats is like I can't do it anymore. Like at that point, was there ever a moment where you're like, What am I doing? Like why am I putting
Barbara: Ha!
holly: so much energy into this? Like, is this a sign from the universe?
Barbara: But then, you know, the next day I say, I'm not giving up. Like, you know, there's moments of self doubt and obviously like, you know, I'm human and like things haven't, I haven't reached the growth that I anticipated, you know, I haven't, you know, made the money I thought I would be making. So it's been, it's been really tough, but I always know that I am doing something that will eventually have success. So my business model, the potential of that is still there. I haven't managed to do this and I've failed in many ways of really on execution. If I look at myself now as a management consultant outside in, I would say, what the fuck are you doing? But that's reality. When you try to do it by yourself, it's hard. But then I said, you know, no, no, I'm going to do this. And also, I forgot to mention, I got skin cancer from swapping as well. So on my lips, I had skin cancer. And that was when I was doing product developments in the very beginning. So my product for me has such a purpose. I love what I do. I love that I have something that helps people to surf more free because that sense of freedom that you have when you know you're protected from the sun, also the eyes, you're in the shade so you can surf better, so you can surf better and longer. That's always for me this, you know, giving this freedom. I don't want to be like skin cancer, scary, you know, that's we all know about this. And so that kept me going. and then the other thing is my customers, you know? Like I sometimes have to some people who I know more closely, I don't think I can do this. Don't give up. This is the best surfer. Like you have to continue. And like the reviews I get, those things really, really kept me going. And so I am now very close to re-emerging. relaunching, well not relaunching, it will be the same product because like why rock the boat when something's working well, but like with a new manufacturer. And I have now a plan to, you know, have a solution for the US. will have a, I will open up a US warehouse. I'm outsourcing.
holly: I will say that like one of the things I mean that there's so many you know, pieces that you've innovated to surf hats. Like the the things that we mentioned before about the fit and the chin strap. And and I don't want to this to sound like an advertisement, but like really I believe in the product. I I as I said on very honestly like I do think it's the best hat out there and with the importance of protecting our skin and the comfort and staying in the water longer, like yes, hundred percent. And the visor. I remember when you first gave me the visor and you're like, well I don't know but like wouldn't it be cute to like you know have your your Bun out the top, and then you still get you know the nice blonde look on the top of your head, and I don't know if it's gonna stay on. And you know, almost all of our surf instructors at Surf with Amigas who are spending all day in the water, who are having to turtle roll and duck dive alongside you know the amigas, we're all wearing visors. Like it is all of our favorite. I don't know that there's anyone on the team that prefers the hat. Like everyone loves a visor, and me particularly, because I can wear the bun out the top and I I just think it looks cute. And and I don't think I don't know of another surpat with an examizer.
Barbara: I'm the only one. I'm the only one. again, this was the first of all, you guys all look so cute with it. I look horrible in the eyes. have funny hair. know, my hair is no, no, but my hair
holly: No, Eula, come on.
Barbara: is is is like it goes crazy. My hair. So that's actually one of the things the surf had prevents my hair from tangling. I used to have such badly tangled hair. Like every time I got out of the ocean, like I nearly had to cut my hair off, you know, so prevent preventing it from But anyway, you guys look amazing in the visor. The visor, I'm the only one in the market. And the difficulty there when we developed this was if you don't have the crown, it can slide down. So we then experimented. So me with a factory that was still with my original manufacturer. How can we do this that it doesn't come down? Because if it slides down when you duck dive over your eyes and you don't see. We have made a double closure in the back, right? this is a normal one that is there's no stretch anywhere in this one, which is the one that holds in place. You know, like all the other one you have like, we make it more comfortable. We put a bit little bit of stretch in it that underwater then widens and falls off or falls back and strangles you. We have made an addition that is elastic, but that's not the one that holds you in place. An additional elasticated here. So that double closure in the back and it has like a cone form so it's the top is smaller than the bottom makes it fit you know and not not not not not slide and you won't lose it but it can slide down and so I think that's why no one has developed that but then again I am so happy that there are now more surf head brands coming into the market because that's I am
holly: Are you really? That was one of the questions I was gonna ask you because I mean I feel like these days there're so many surf hats. Like, you know, originally it was like all the big, you know, FCS and like hat companies or surf companies, but now I feel like there's so many like small women owned I I'm getting word surf of the meagus gets hit up like very regularly with like my friend is doing this hat maybe you want to sell it or like the ones with the like helmet inserts that I'm surprised to hear you say that you're so happy. Like tell me more. Like how why are you happy there's more competitors.
Barbara: because I got in at the right point so I already have a brand name developed number one I have a patent on it, so no one can copy it. And I think the market is still so big for surf heads. When I went in, it was really like this big market, no one really doing something specific for it. So I think I was the only one who came in with a very functional surf head, with the only purpose making the best surf head. So I went in at the right time. I have now a developed brand. I found my niche. The market is gigantic. The more people who likes to wear surf hats, then they might want to try different brands. the fact that people, the first hurdle when I was starting was still people not wanting to wear a hat because they thought, my god, this doesn't look cool. I look like a cook. And now it's becoming a lot more commonplace to wear surf hats. And so other brands are helping me to overcome this hurdle. And then the market is big. share it and everyone has their own little niche. I am the only real technical surfer out there. So I found my niche and I'm happy with that. you know exactly, so there are some really pretty ones. They might even be cuter than mine. You know, they have like patterns. I deliberately didn't go down that route because I wanted timeless. So for me, everything was because my products last for such a long time. I can't do seasonal, you know, because then they are out of season. mean, some people say you need to have stuff that don't last that long because your business model doesn't add up. You know, you need to sell more to people. I sell, you know, I'm happy that my products last because that's sustainable. me, sustainability is having a product that lasts as long as it can. That's the most important thing on sustainability.
holly: well, one question I have is I wonder if part of what has made surf hats become more popular is just how the demographic of surfing is changing. Like whether it's that more women are surfing who like
Barbara: Peace.
holly: don't care as much about cool not that women don't care about cool. Of course we care about cool, but like what is cool is also like protecting oneself. Like back in the day, like it wasn't that long ago that you would never wear leggings to surf. You know, and now like
Barbara: It's a lot about self care, right? Yeah.
holly: Yeah, so healthcare is cool. But I wonder what is the percentage of women versus men that are buying I mean your your hats are gender neutral, right? Like they're not for women, they're not surf hats for women or surf hats for men, they're just surf hats and Do you know how many are women versus men? Really? nice.
Barbara: It's 50-50. It's 50-50. It's 50-50. And I mean, we know that the women element in surfing is growing a lot faster. And it's hard, right? So on the one hand, it's great to have a unisex brand because you get both demographics. But in terms of marketing, it's really difficult to speak to both. So for example, for... Women, talk a lot more about self-care, but also performance. For men, it's often depends. If they're older and they get bold, yes, easy. But younger male surfer, there it's more about having better vision, being able to see better. so that surfing, longer surfing, better, which applies to many women as well. But for women, it's easier on top of that to also have some protection self-care element. I have also like I have, yeah, it's definitely 50-50, but it's easier, I think, to sell to women because they. they do want to look better. I mean, I have some photos of friends having their face completely covered white. So if you wear a surfer that sort of looks okay, you actually look better than having a white cast face.
holly: White face, I agree. I've never been into the whiteface look myself. Well, I as I'm hearing you, you know, all of the struggles that you've gone through and like the dedication and and knowing how much time that takes as like an individual with maybe one helper, I wonder if at some point you lose that feeling of freedom that you originally like moved to Central America to have. Like how do you start feeling like you're in the corporate rat race,
Barbara: I am definitely not as chilled anymore. I don't serve that much anymore. I sometimes feel anxious as well about my future because obviously all my great savings, all my life savings, have put everything, it's all bootstrapped, I've put everything into this. But I still really... love what I do because that's what I told you for this purpose like it's it's not a fashion product you know it's it's really perhaps and it's linked to health, it's linked to happiness because for me surfing is happiness and I can spread that and like hearing you know my customers die rather directly or someone who I don't know who suddenly writes a super nice review that keeps me going and Obviously, I hope what I said before, I hope I will find this from extreme, you know, finding a way. I now need to push really hard in the next few months, but I'm I'm hoping that eventually I will find this balance of continuing to do what I love, but have a little bit more freedom again. And that's the thing, you know, when you start your own business and I'm now all by myself, I don't even have anyone, it's just me right now, but I will. higher once I restock. So yes, sometimes I wish, you know, I think about the good old times when I didn't have anything to do, but then I think even further back and when I was sitting in a corporate office, I'm still so happy, so much better what I'm doing now. So I don't really, I would never do anything else. would... I wouldn't even have done it differently because if I hadn't gone the long road to develop everything by myself and do it slowly, like also if I had like, you know, straight away hired a gigantic team, I wouldn't, there were mistakes, you know, when you launch a company that if I had been too big by then it would have been disastrous. So being small sometimes gives you also more room for mistakes. and so I wouldn't have done anything differently. Not at all. And yeah, shit happens. It has been really hard. There hasn't been anything has been easy in this road. I've had so many roadblocks, like, you know, even the trademark, had like legal complaints when I tried to get my trademark through. need to have to pay people off to allow me to even travel to the US to try to convince someone to give to to allow me to get my trademark. So like crazy, crazy things. And then with a patent also like so much so much trouble to get there. And I think everything I did was difficult. But that made it even more something I want to do. And I think eventually this will all pay off. That's my belief.
holly: And yeah, and you'd have to have that belief in order to continue pursuing
Barbara: Yeah, otherwise, yeah. And then again, yes, there are times when I suddenly think, my god, you need to get a normal job again. But that doesn't last very long. My belief and my passion for what I do is stronger. Yes, I want to have more time to again. And I basically only surf weekends now. Unless it's really, like I said before, I've become quite picky. So when it's great, I go surfing. But otherwise, I reserve it to weekends because I have too much to do. if I don't do it now, like I think if I work really hard now, then eventually, you know, I will find my balance somehow.
holly: Yeah, and and I I I hope that you I feel like I see some like common elements between us and some of the stories that you've told and and I know for myself that I mean I I you you did show that you could go from crazy busy to like super chill, but I feel like for myself it's like I'm always saying like, i after this week or like after this month or once the season ends then the things are gonna slow down. In fact, Jackie actually got me This hat that said, What does it say? Like after this week things will chill out because it's like a
Barbara: Haha
holly: But like you never you never get there because once you get past that next hurdle then there's like the next one and there's always something. But I know that you are coming into a good time. So can you talk about the hats? Have not been available, it's all sold out on the website. I think in our Circuit Amigas boutique, I had somebody asking about hats yesterday and there was four left. You know, then then that's it. There's no more. But but the restock is coming soon.
Barbara: I'm, the research is coming, so I found, I looked for the right manufacturer for two years. I had prototypes done everywhere in the world and... they were just never good enough. you you think it shouldn't be that I have like, I have all the technical files, you know, like, how like the pattern and how they're made and everything. So anyone should be able to copy it. And the guests, they fit well, but like the details didn't they never met my standards. And so so many different factories in so many different countries where I had to ship the fabrics too, with everything, have the NDA signed, always came back, no, no, no, no, no. And I found, finally in March, I found the perfect manufacturer. They're no longer in Europe. Europe, I tried everywhere, but they will be in Taiwan, which I'm very excited about. Taiwan is actually, I haven't physically, I didn't physically went to see them, but Taiwan is pretty amazing. So it's quite a step up from China and the factory, they were amazing. So the prototypes are like top notch, great quality. And so yeah, I will, Next week, I'm getting the final round of prototypes for sign-off and then we're going to production. then I will, so I'm going to, at the moment it's just me and I'm outsourcing. So I'm outsourcing distribution. I will have a fulfillment center in Europe and one in the US so that all the US customers don't have to worry about import taxes. It's fast. It's a no-brainer. So we'll make it a lot easier. And I will also start, that's the one benefit of Europe was also my manufacture in Europe was getting so expensive the costs had more than doubled so my margin was although I'm premium priced my margins were tiny so now with Taiwanese production I will finally be able to go into wholesale as well so I will slowly slowly start to see if I can get into some very selected surf shops you know so this won't be like going everywhere I will select them well so I will create some volume because I need volume I need more volume. I need to grow. If I want to survive, I need to grow. And so yeah, I will get some marketing help. I know you guys have been always such great supporters. I'm so incredibly grateful. Like so many Amigas on your team. Like actually I have to do a shout out as well to Leila in Mexico. She was the one who always said, I want a visor, I want a visor. So. Yeah, like Angie, like, you know, in my first official photo shoot, you know, she was she was one of second official for she was helping out. then, you know, I mean, everyone, Shelly, you then Chloe also like, I don't know, Jackie, everyone has been fantastic. And I felt so supported. And particularly now, you know, times have been tough. The last year has been really, really hard. And So that really gets me going. so yeah, influencer marketing is definitely something I need to pick up. But I'm I, for example, personally, I hate Instagram. I can't deal with it. So I need to get help on that on that front. So, yes, I will select, you know, support where I need it. But obviously, I will remain a very lean company. I am a very small company. And then once things I definitely want to go into product development again. So I have some ideas up my sleeve of what else I can do and I'm very excited about that.
holly: Awesome. Well, I I am too. And yeah, I just want to say like what everything that Surf with Amigas believes in is like women supporting women and and helping each other grow and achieve one another's dreams. Like whether that's like getting your first barrel or nose right or making the perfect surf hat and if it we can it can benefit us too and our clients and even better. So if you're listening to this and you're in the market for a surf hat or you're coming on a retreat soon, then definitely Kayola is the best out there and not just Because we love you, Barbara, but actually we love the hats. And I'm so grateful
Barbara: Thank you.
holly: for you to share those stories. I think it's really inspirational, just like the whole trajectory of realizing that you're you're not feeling healthy in the rat race and moving to the jungle and really leaning into that time of rest and discovering what's next. And then once you've found it, just like charging full steam ahead and jumping over all the hurdles. So it thank you so much
Barbara: Thank you for having me. Always inspirational, Holly, what you guys are doing. I definitely think women supporting women is the only way to go. Although I'm a unisex brand, it's hard for me to speak to men sometimes. It's a lot easier for me to communicate and sell to women. I think that's so much easier and so much more fun for me as well. have to admit.
holly: It's the best hat on the market. We'll just leave it at that.
