WEBVTT
00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:10.640
Hello, I'm Maria.
00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:11.679
And I'm Suzanne.
00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:16.480
And welcome to Publishing Pals Podcast, a podcast where two pals talk about publishing.
00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:21.600
For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published.
00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:27.920
Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this gatekeeped, confusing, but also incredibly fun and rewarding industry.
00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:34.560
And today for our interview episode, we are joined by Lavanya Naidu and Deborah Shoemaker.
00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:36.399
Thank you so much for being here, guys.
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:47.280
Hi, so this is an author-illustrator duo who have worked together on a recent upcoming picture book.
00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:57.439
Deborah Shoemaker lives in the suburbs of Northern Virginia with her husband and two cats and is wrecked by James McGowan and Sophie Shoemaker, no relation, at Bookend's Literary Agency.
00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:07.760
She has been getting book deals since 2019 and is now the author of books such as Freaky Funky Fish, Peculiar Primates, Tell Someone, and Wind is a Dance.
00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:12.400
When she isn't reading or writing, she enjoys hiking, gardening, and watching Jeopardy.
00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:20.879
The book she wrote with illustrations by Lavanya Naidu, Sunday Scaries, is set for release in August of this year.
00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:28.319
And Lavanya Naidu is an artist with a degree in animation film design from the National Institute of Design.
00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:30.719
She is repped by Eliza R.
00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:39.200
Hoover at the Cat Agency and has illustrated books for a wide range of publishers and imprints, including Scholastic, Delacourt, Viking Books, and Candlewick.
00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:47.280
She has worked as an animator, pre-production artist, head of design, episodic director in animated content, and even worked on kids' games.
00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:53.280
Originally from Kolkata, she currently resides in Melbourne, Australia with her husband and dog.
00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:56.239
And we are so excited to have you on today.
00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:04.079
Correct.
00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:04.799
Yes.
00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:11.520
And I I know it's I when we logged on, you guys, uh, this is your first time meeting like virtually, right?
00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:12.719
Yes.
00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:16.879
It is really exciting to uh see her face.
00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:20.000
I know that this is a podcast, but I'm seeing her face right now.
00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:21.360
And um, it is.
00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:26.960
It's very exciting to do an interview with an illustrator of my book because I've this is the first time I've done something like this.
00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:28.080
No, same for me.
00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:37.120
I'm really excited to meet Deborah and also we could gain insights on, you know, how how Sunday Scaries came into being and all of the behind-the-scenes stuff.
00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:43.759
So I'm really excited to be meeting her in in person virtually as well, and all of you guys too.
00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:57.199
Yeah, and I think maybe there's some confusion um about the publishing industry just in general, and people think of having their book illustrated, how much communication there is between the artist and the author when it's not an author illustrator.
00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:05.520
Um, can you guys talk a little bit about like what amount of interaction have you guys had with either illustrators or authors before in previous books?
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:11.599
And and just like what input you get through like an art director, through their agent, et cetera.
00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:18.479
Um as is typical, I've never collaborated um with the illustrators.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:40.960
It's always I get information from the editor, I give feedback to the editor who goes to the art director and then the illustrator, or maybe maybe there's some communication between the editor and the illustrator, but uh there I've never had one-on-one contact with an illustrator until after the project is done.
00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:42.400
Oh wow.
00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:47.919
As someone not in the picture book world, that that definitely is shocking.
00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:50.479
You think we do mostly.
00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:50.800
Yeah.
00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:51.520
Yeah.
00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:53.840
Most people are shocked to hear that.
00:03:53.919 --> 00:04:02.240
Uh, when I do school visits, everyone assumes that, you know, all the little kids assume that we know each other, we're best friends, we're neighbors, or something or other.
00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:13.439
Um, but no, I've never uh had a conversation, like a I've had email conversations after um after the illustrations are finally done.
00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:21.040
I've then basically reached out and just you know expressed my gratitude and my awe in the process.
00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:29.519
But uh the traditionally both editors and art directors don't want that communication.
00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:48.319
And I think my my understanding is, which I agree with, they don't want the author directing, trying to micromanage the process because the art is it's it is uh just as important as the text.
00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:55.680
I mean, it it just adds so much to the story, and uh the illustrator is the professional in the art.
00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:57.600
I believe me, I am not.
00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:05.759
So um most people are shocked at how little, if any, collaboration we've had, and we've had none.
00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:13.040
I think it's very much the same as what Deborah's mentioned already in in the case of illustrators as well.
00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:18.079
Um, it's certainly post the project is when we connect.
00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:27.680
Um and now I think because we have social media and Instagram, we probably follow each other during the project and connect over that um for chats and things.
00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:35.680
And but it's it's never really um in that sense, you know, we don't work together, I guess, through the process of the book.
00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:38.319
And I I completely agree with what Deborah's saying as well.
00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:54.000
I think it's to keep sort of, I guess maybe it's we all kind of tend to have like a certain vision for something, and maybe it's to try and have as much of an unbiased, I guess, viewpoint um of how the book could be represented.
00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:57.439
So that's probably why, but it does make sense.
00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:01.519
But yeah, it's also it's also great just connecting afterwards as well.
00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:05.199
And you know, this this is amazing to really get to know the behind the scenes.
00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:09.199
Like I'm always curious, I'm like, oh, how did how did the author come up with this idea?
00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:12.240
And like, what was the the thought process and the journey?
00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:14.560
So I'm really excited to hear about that as well.
00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:16.480
I'm gonna learn lots about Sunday Scary System.
00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:17.839
I just know it.
00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:23.279
Yeah, maybe we should start there with like Deborah, what was your initial spark?
00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:31.199
So the longer I'm in the published world, the more I realize there is no typical.
00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:34.160
Uh, my first book was the typical.
00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:36.480
I wrote a book, I found an agent.
00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:39.279
Actually, I wrote the freaky funky fish.
00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:48.560
Well, after I had my first agent, um the first few books didn't sell, so but then she would submit to the editors, and that's how it goes.
00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:52.480
This book has a very interesting history.
00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:58.480
Um, Kanof actually bought a different picture book that I wrote way back.
00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:00.959
They offered in 2021, I think.
00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:05.120
And then the editor left Kanof.
00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:16.480
And then um Kanoff made a decision that that was not a book they no longer want wanted for their list.
00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.560
But they loved my writing, they wanted to work with me.
00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:27.519
Could I pitch them several ideas in the SEL space with a little bit of humor?
00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:33.199
So that was um very different.
00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:41.600
So it was two rounds of pitches, and um so you know, I thought back when I was a kid, what was I struggling with?
00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:44.879
And um did not call it Sunday Scaries.
00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:54.240
I actually the pitch I had it was called Sunday Night Blues, um, about a girl who would get a stomachache every Sunday night because she didn't want to go to school the next day.
00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:58.319
And that was in my second round of pitches, and then an editor grabbed on that.
00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:00.079
She's like, that's what we want.
00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:04.319
So then I had to write an outline and then the book.
00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:20.240
So it was actually much more of a collaborative process with my editor, uh, the new editor that you know I was assigned, um, that I've ever had, because usually it's the manuscript is written, my agent submits to several publishers, and then an editor falls in love and makes an offer on it.
00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:22.319
So this was backwards.
00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:24.480
I'm so curious.
00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:30.480
What was it like pitching directly to an editor instead of sending something to your agent and then then sending it out?
00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:33.279
Was it like really rough, like a log line you were pitching in?
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:50.320
It was, I mean, I did it with my agent, but um, it was like just six like three to four line paragraphs, like potential title, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, the kind of like I always think of a pitch as kind of like what the jacket copy might be type thing.
00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:50.799
Okay.
00:08:50.960 --> 00:09:03.360
Uh so it was, you know, and then once once one was accepted, then I actually had to write the story, which was the scariest thing ever, because my first four books are either nonfiction or concept.
00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:10.080
So I've never written a fiction, I've never successfully sold a fiction picture book with a plot until this one.
00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:15.759
So um it was scary, but it was also very fun.
00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.159
I it was it was such an unusual process this time around.
00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:25.759
But then again, if I look at my five books, they've all each one has its own unique story.
00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:30.080
So there there is very little typical in the publishing industry.
00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:47.360
I'm um I'm very curious what the um after you like got your notes together and everything and like submitted your final text for the book, um, what changed between you submitting it and the final version that Lav got to illustrate?
00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:55.440
Like I would do, I guess more just like for people listening, like illustrating like how things continue to evolve after you sell it.
00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:56.399
Yeah.
00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:04.159
So again, she asked for an outline, which I found very strange for a picture book.
00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:10.639
Um, so I wrote like two rough drafts and sent it to James, and he's like, okay, now kind of backtrack.
00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:12.879
They want an outline, we're gonna give them an outline.
00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:19.200
Okay, so I I wrote a very, I mean, like very rough draft and then made it to an outline.
00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:29.840
But then she gave me a lot of feedback on the outline, and you know, um it was a strange process, but um, but again, it was fun to collaborate with the editor.
00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.480
She really wanted this to succeed.
00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:36.080
Um, and um, I I loved the end result.
00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:38.720
Um, definitely some plot lines changed.
00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:47.919
Um, once I started writing it, then I realized I kind of had two different reasons going on initially about why Josie had such a stomachache.
00:10:48.159 --> 00:11:12.240
And I realized between the I don't know, three to five back and forths of the drafts, I guess, with Gianna, um you know, that the storyline things needed to be streamlined and maybe a little bit of a hint added somewhere just to kind of get the storyline to tie together.
00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:15.200
So it was an interesting process.
00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:31.440
Um and then um so what Lavana saw, um Yeah, I I don't think much changed once uh we kind of got the sign-off from the editorial team.
00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:33.279
I don't think that much changed.
00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:39.519
So, but it was definitely it started out as an outline that I fleshed out, and there's probably three and four.
00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:44.240
And I bring my critique book, like, okay, critique group, help me out here, you know.
00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.039
This is what she's hoping for, this is what I'm doing.
00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:57.600
And I am so thankful for my critique groups, like all of my critique groups who helped me through this process because it was not the typical way I've written a picture book.
00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:02.960
Yeah, I bet going from that uh from nonfiction must have been a completely different experience.
00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:03.759
Yeah.
00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:09.840
And the other book I had written was much more of a concept emotional type book.
00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.320
So there was a little bit of a plot, but not much.
00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:15.759
This is the first where you know there is an actual plot.
00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.080
So I've struggled with plot.
00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:23.840
So I'm so glad with how it turned out.
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:25.840
Well, the book is great, it's super cute.
00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:27.600
I love the illustrations, Lav.
00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:28.799
Your stuff is gorgeous.
00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:32.000
I was like so excited to interview you when I saw your website.
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:33.279
Um thank you.
00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:35.039
I I'm very curious.
00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:38.720
Uh Deborah, were there art notes that Lav got that you had written?
00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:43.440
And Lav, I'm curious how you go about interpreting art notes when you get them.
00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:45.440
Like what does your brainstorming process look like?
00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:47.919
What did what are things like on your end?
00:12:48.399 --> 00:13:04.159
So there were very few art notes, and I'm always curious if the editor ends up taking them out, but I think I had one where I just kind of wanted to explain the scene a little bit that she was like throwing fake snowflakes so that her parents would see snowflakes.
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:14.000
Um, I think I had that um just at the beginning, I wanted to be very clear that she was walking out of the school because my my my first draft had like a scuba bell ringing, and we just made that an illustrator's note.
00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:18.320
And then there was one I was looking at my revision process earlier today.
00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:28.799
There was one spot where the parents are also having their own Sunday scaries, and I had some lines in there about them checking their emails and whatever.
00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.279
And in the end, we actually took that out and I just put it as an illustration note.
00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:40.559
I wanted to make sure that Lav understood that their Sunday night routine wasn't the best routine either.
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.679
So um I think that was it, right, Love?
00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:45.120
Yeah, pretty much.
00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.080
I think it's exactly uh they kept all of that.
00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:51.440
So I did receive all of that when I went through the first draft.
00:13:51.519 --> 00:14:05.679
And I think that's really useful as well because it gives me clues as to what are the most important story story points to hit visually as well, and what are the things that are important, I guess, for driving a certain point.
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:10.480
Like what you mentioned about her parents going through that sensation of having the Sunday scaries.
00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:12.720
I go through this every weekend.
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:19.279
Today's a public holiday, it's Monday here, so I'm just really chill because of that.
00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:26.480
But I absolutely, the minute I read the manuscript, I instantly connected with it because I think most people do, right?
00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:30.879
I mean, I've got this like love-hate thing with Mondays.
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:33.840
Um, I've I've known this my whole life.
00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:42.080
And um just being able to connect with the way that Josie feels, and I feel like it's just not not just kids who would connect with the book.
00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:49.519
I definitely feel like all of the adults, whoever's gonna be reading this to their kids as well, is going to really relate to this.
00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:56.720
Um so yeah, from that perspective, the art notes um were really helpful in in that instance.
00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:05.679
And um going into how to interpret that, I think for me, the challenge with the book was that this is a feeling that Josie has.
00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:16.320
And how do you give um physical form to something like that, which which allows kids to be able to process um what is really happening?
00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:22.879
So initially I was thinking, oh, it could be, you know, what can we do to it to give it physical form?
00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:29.440
It could be a monster, but then what if it's actually just Monday itself, you know, that's sort of creeping.
00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:36.639
It's all of its, you know, the letters have arms and they're sort of like creeping up on Josie as as the weekend comes to an end.
00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:43.759
Um, so yeah, that's that's pretty much yeah, where I went went off of one, yeah, creatively.
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:49.440
I want to chime in how much I love what you did with the Monday word.
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:52.960
And I mean, it's scary but kid friendly, scary.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:55.200
And it was just with the the creepiness of it.
00:15:55.440 --> 00:16:03.440
I think that I never really thought about what kind of visual I'm not a visual thinker, so I I never it never even crossed my mind.
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:05.919
Oh, I wonder what the illustrator will do with this.
00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.639
And I just love, love, love, love.
00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:14.480
I think it is so adorable, and you know, just with the little touch of the scary feeling.
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:16.720
And I I hope kids love it.
00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:17.519
Thank you.
00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:19.120
No, it was really beautiful.
00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:26.879
Um, did you were there a lot of revisions that it went through, or was that like your initial concept, and then you just were able to take it to final?
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.840
I think uh it was really collaborative.
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:36.480
And um, you know, my designer and um Gianna and Tallinn, they were really open to my ideas.
00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:41.440
So initially I just went ahead and explored a few different options of how we could represent it.
00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.399
Uh, Deborah, it was initially quite scary.
00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:49.600
And then I think I went to the extreme and then we paired it back.
00:16:49.840 --> 00:17:02.559
Um and if you see it through the book, it's actually it just gets a little, you know, the the hands and the fingers, they start to get a little creepier and slightly chunkier as well to kind of build that notion of fear.
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:21.279
Um, so it was it was great, like back and forth, and you know, really working with the team to try and land on something that would be um, like Deborah said, not too scary, but also at the same time really selling the um, you know, the concept of this being Josie's anxiety is building with every week that this happens.
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:22.079
Yeah.
00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:35.440
I'm curious now that the book is done and you guys are about to have it out in the world, um, I know more than it it was a few decades ago, artists and illustrators are expected to do a lot on more self-promotion when forthcoming books happen.
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:46.640
I'm curious as to what promotion looks like from the artist side and from the writer's side and how that is different and how maybe you collaborate with authors or illustrators for projects on things like this.
00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:55.599
For me, as I'm not based in the in the States, I a lot of my promotional stuff would be digital and how to go about things digitally.
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:57.279
So I am very excited.
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:13.119
I've got like a few reels and things planned for social media, uh, of course, pre-order links on my website and promoting that whenever you know um it's necessary to like bring the audience into getting some pre-order sales, but also art process.
00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:19.200
And I think that's something that I really, really actively want to start sharing with each of my picture books.
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:26.720
So I've started like a little YouTube channel that has screen recordings of my illustrations um on books.
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:28.319
And so you can tune into that.
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:35.119
I'll link all of that once it's out so that you can see the process of how you know specific illustrations in the book have worked.
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:42.799
I also want to do more breakdown style um videos or reels that's a bit quicker, I guess, to watch.
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:44.079
So I'll be doing some of that.
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:45.680
And I want to do some fun stuff with Josie.
00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.720
So I've got a few things planned that I'm really excited about.
00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.519
Um yeah, stay tuned, coming weeks.
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:53.359
That sounds fantastic.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:54.880
I can't wait to see it.
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:56.079
Thank you.
00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:13.920
Um, as for my end, you know, um, I live in an area that has lots of local independent bookstores, Northern Virginia, and they're spread out far enough where I feel like if I do one thing one weekend and another thing another weekend, that I'm not like hurting the business of the individual bookstores.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:17.920
So um I've got a couple events and I'm still working on scheduling a few more.
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:22.960
Um, I love doing book festivals, so I'm in the process of applying for book festivals.
00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:27.039
So that'll be like most book festivals they want a book within the last year.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:32.480
So it'll be from this fall through next summer that I'll apply for some book festivals.
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:37.279
Are there any favorite local bookstores or book festivals that you'd like to plug?
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:42.559
Uh Scrawl Books in Reston, Virginia is uh my go-to one.
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:45.119
Um, Leesburg also has one, Birch Tree Books.
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:51.359
Um yeah, they're both equidistant from me.
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:53.440
So um I utilize both.
00:19:53.599 --> 00:20:00.079
Um and then there's a fellow uh Virginian author who just opened up a bookstore in Aquaquan.
00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:05.519
So um I'm doing something with her the day before school starts for her county.
00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:08.720
So I felt like that that timing was working out really well.
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:13.920
So other than that, uh I mean, you know, I you feel like you're shouting into the wind.
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:20.559
I mean, it'll, you know, definitely, you know, I'm doing a pre-order campaign to, you know, give out some stickers and bookmarks.
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:24.880
If they order from scroll, I'll, you know, I'll put in the stickers and bookmarks.
00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:31.759
Um yeah, I promotion is a challenge.
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:39.440
I never know what's working or not working, but I love talking about books, and so I'll just do whatever feels right at the time.
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.079
How do you go about booking stuff like that?
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:46.000
Um, or like finding places or festivals to advertise at?
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:59.119
Um I created a list based off of like writers digest, and there's just signs some different lists that float around for um book festivals that include kids' books and adult books.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:00.799
And I have a spreadsheet.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:02.400
I like to keep track of things.
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:12.319
So um then I just, you know, put them when they typically are and when, you know, like last year when they were expecting admissions or not admissions, applications.
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.519
Um, so I just kind of have a spreadsheet where I'm keeping track of things.
00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:19.680
And um, if it's within driving distance, I'll apply.
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:28.000
Do you feel like your publisher is giving you any support, or do you feel like it's at this point mostly like self-driven?
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:34.720
I know the support is there as far as they're the ones sending it for the the reviews and things like that.
00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:36.960
That's something that I couldn't do.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:52.160
Um but the the the image that lots of movies give where you're being put on book tours and the publisher pays, you know, for all of that stuff.
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:56.319
That's not reality in picture book world, at least not for me.
00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.519
Um I mean, my publishers up until now have been pretty small.
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:08.160
So So um I can I certainly have the publicity department that I can ask questions and all of that stuff.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:22.960
So there's support, but you know, it's a new it's a new world where everyone in publishing is working so hard that I feel like I need to be doing stuff on my own.
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:24.240
And I like to do it.
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:28.799
I mean, I love doing book festivals and I like doing book store events, so I don't mind doing that stuff.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:29.839
I really enjoy it.
00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:34.000
Yeah, I feel like editors are just, you know, they want that.
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:40.079
They want that, but then the authors uh and illustrators, you know, you want the support.
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:47.599
It's just, you know, who's gonna, who's gonna take the lead, who's gonna make that, you know, move the needle.
00:22:47.759 --> 00:23:01.839
It's so I think especially for new authors, it's so confusing and people feel so intimidated by having to do the marketing uh in any form for their book because you know, I know a lot of us are introverts and putting yourself out there is tough.
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:04.559
So like kudos to you guys for like me.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:08.079
And I'm I'm glad Lav does the videos and the reels and all that stuff.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:10.559
But that is not my cup of tea whatsoever.
00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:22.240
I will do posts on Instagram and Facebook and Blue Sky, but uh again, there's just so many different avenues that you just feel like you're shouting into the yeah, yeah, the cloud.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:23.440
Definitely.
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:33.119
I feel like it can get quite overwhelming as well because you just don't know what's going to work and what which you know audience is going to connect with you at what time.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:43.359
So it's nice to put stuff out there and both Deborah and I just reshare each other's stuff whenever we're posting, so that you know, we're both kind of shouting into the this together.
00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:48.400
But it's it's great, and I get it.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:53.119
It's because you know, there's it's it's an there's an overwhelming number of books that's gonna come out.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:56.960
So you never really know what's going to catch someone's eye.
00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:59.519
So, you know, you just you just do what you can.
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:02.480
And I would love to give a shout out to my editor.
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:09.440
When she acquired the book, initially I called it Sunday Night Blues because I I had envisioned just kind of lots of little wordplay with musical terms.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:10.799
I thought that would be a lot of fun.
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:18.079
And when she acquired it, she's like, okay, there's one thing we're going to do, and that is change the title to Sunday Scaries.
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:19.200
And I'm like, oh, really?
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:19.519
Why?
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:20.640
She's like, Google it.
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:27.519
So I did, and I realized it's it's a feeling that we've all had, but I never knew it being called Sunday Scaries.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:30.480
And she's like, it is such a buzzword right now.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.279
And I mean, I think it's tied.
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:36.400
There's a commercial, I think it's tied.
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:39.359
Even my one of my sisters texted me during the Super Bowl.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:42.319
She's like, Oh, they just used the term Sunday Scaries.
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:43.599
I'm like, I know.
00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:49.279
So my editor was brilliant when she's like, it is going to be called Sunday Scaries, period.
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:50.400
I'm like, okay.
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:53.200
What a functive term for it, too.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:53.680
Yeah.
00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:54.079
Yeah.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:54.480
Yeah.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:58.880
It is a very I knew it was a common feeling.
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.680
I didn't realize there was like this term for it.
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:08.400
Um, so um, I want to give credit to you know, Gianna for insisting on the title change.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:14.640
And then again, the ill the the cover is just adorable with the little hands grabbing at Josie.
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:15.359
So laugh.
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:17.039
I I'm so thrilled with it.
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:19.680
So I do think that it's catchy.
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:31.200
So hopefully it'll grab the eyes of a lot of people as they're you know browsing in bookstores or or perusing online as we try to shout into the universe.
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:34.319
I hope so too.
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:36.240
I'm excited for your guys' release.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:47.200
Um I I think just talking about, you know, like getting your book acquired and and working on it, I know there's a lot of opaqueness in the industry regarding what authors and illustrators make for a given book.
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:51.519
Um, would you guys mind sharing the range of advances you've been offered for your various projects?
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:53.519
Because I think you've both done a fair amount.
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:58.240
Um, and what that was different about the deals that involve bigger versus smaller budgets.
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:05.599
Um yeah, so with me, um, my advances have ranged from 2,500 to um a little bit over 10.
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:06.640
I think it's 12.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.079
Um, and it's all based on the size of the publisher.
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:14.319
So the bigger publisher has given me more than the little publishers.
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:23.279
So um, and I think that's pretty much in line with most of the uh picture book authors that I know.
00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:34.319
It it's typically between that 3,000 and 10,000 range, again, for the people that I know who we uh share that information.
00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:40.559
I'm sure there's authors who get more, but um they're probably much more established than I am.
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:54.240
With illustrators, it could be, you know, it could range anywhere between for picture books specifically, it could range anywhere between like five to sometimes$30,000,$35,000.
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:56.880
So that's that's a really wide range.
00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:11.920
And again, like as what Deborah said, it could be the publisher, you know, the size of, you know, uh the say not the sales per se, but like what they assume the book might um do with numbers.
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:16.720
Uh so there's a lot of factors that go into budgets as well.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:24.400
And I think for chapter books, it's actually quite different as well, uh, with illustrators because the illustrations are in black and white.
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:30.640
Um, they're not sort of like a 50-50 balance, I guess, with chapter books, um, the way that they are in picture books.
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:34.880
So they can, the budgets can be really variable, really, really variable.
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:35.759
Yeah.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:39.359
I'm sure a lot of it it helps that you guys have some great agents.
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:47.920
Um, I know I I I want to give a shout out because the bookend YouTube channel that James McGowan does with Jessica Faust, I thought was tremendously helpful when I was first starting out.
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:49.200
I they seem great.
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:52.319
And I've heard so many good things about the Cat Agency Lab.
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:56.319
Um, I'd love to hear like your experience getting picked up by them.
00:27:57.519 --> 00:27:59.759
So shout out to my agent, Eliza.
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:01.680
I adore her.
00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:02.799
I think she's amazing.
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:05.519
She's such a great cheerleader support system.
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:31.759
Um, and just a really, you know, just a really great teammate to have um back for you as an illustrator because there's so many things like, you know, I think Suzanne mentioned early on that a lot of us are introverts and sometimes you just, you know, there's certain things that you just don't know how to address or how to ask for, you know, whether it's like what you think you're worth, whether it's things in your contract that maybe kind of make you question certain things.
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:44.480
Or and it's just really nice to have somebody who you can talk about these things freely with and, you know, um address some of that, do some of the work that perhaps you might be uncomfortable doing yourself.
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:51.599
Um so I was in animation for a long time before, you know, moving completely to books.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:29:06.799
I was also illustrating books, but it was something that I was doing off hours, you know, kind of like indulging in it, because um with animation and in leadership, you know, as you steadily um as your responsibilities increase, you tend to not draw as much.
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:12.480
And I think I was starting to realize that I really just wanted to draw and just be creative again.
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:35.279
And I experienced um a bit of burnout and then decided to take a bit of a break and just think about, you know, just kind of re-u-align myself a bit and think about what I wanted to do next and just focus on drawing, just enjoy the process and not think so much about, you know, deadlines or like, you know, um deliverables and all of that stuff.
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:39.119
And I found myself just feeling really, really good and really, really happy.
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:46.640
And it so happened that Eliza reached out to me at that precise point, which is really destiny.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:48.880
Yeah, it was just amazing.
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:52.160
The timing of it was just, you know, the right person, the right time.
00:29:52.400 --> 00:30:02.880
And I'd always kind of been on the fence about um representation just because I didn't have a lot of awareness about it, and I wasn't really, I hadn't taken a deep dive into publishing just as yet.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:07.279
So to me, um, I was open to having a chat.
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.279
So we did we got on a call and it was just it was amazing.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:19.519
I could just, you know, ask for everything and we had a really good discussion, and I felt like we were on the same page about just everything.
00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:25.279
So um I decided to take the, you know, take the leap of faith and um go for it.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:28.160
And I think it's been just an incredible decision.
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:52.960
The agency is amazing, um, very encouraging, very supportive, and also just connecting with all of the other artists and authors within the agency has been amazing because you know, if you're going through things on your project, you've got work in progress that you want to share, and you just want to get just some instant feedback from you know a group of people who you really just admire and respect.
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.119
It's yeah, I'm really thankful for that.
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:56.960
And of course, Eliza as well.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:57.920
So yeah.
00:30:58.480 --> 00:30:59.599
How did she find you?
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:11.759
From what I remember, I think she said that she'd been following my work for a while and had just decided to to reach out, which was yeah, I think I just I feel like I just live under a rock for most days.
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:17.599
So so uh to hear that, I was like, oh my god, that that's amazing.
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:18.400
That's insane.
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:20.079
Thank you so much for reaching out.
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:25.359
And um, yeah, so that's I guess that's how she she found me.
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:26.160
Yeah.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:27.920
What a great story.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:31.279
And how flattering to have like an agent fangirling over you.
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:33.519
And it's beautiful.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:35.519
Like I get it.
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:36.880
Honestly, I'm so lucky.
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:38.720
Yeah, that's amazing.
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:40.799
Um, and what was your story, Deborah?
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:42.559
You were querying, I believe, correct?
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:44.480
Yeah, I queried for a very long time.
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:48.559
So I wrote my first manuscript, um, gosh, in 2009.
00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:53.039
And I didn't sign with my first agent until until 2017.
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:59.599
And then it was a year and a half and five manuscripts before I got my first offer for freaky funky fish.
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:04.480
So um, and it was my fifth manuscript with um with my agent.
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:05.839
I I can't tell you.
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:14.000
I mean, that was my 15th picture book that I not just quickly wrote, that I wrote and revised and polished.
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:22.960
So it took me a long time to um A, find representation and then B to actually get um my first, yes, with a picture book contract.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:29.039
So um, but I mean I just did it the querying, you know, just following agents.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:35.519
I at that time I was on Twitter, that's where actually I was running PB Pitch, um Twitter pitch party.
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:51.680
I was a co-founder of PB Pitch, and it was in 2017 that um an editor who was becoming an agent that I wasn't aware of, she started hurting um pitches.
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:58.160
And so I messaged her saying, um, are you able to send submission guidelines?
00:32:58.240 --> 00:32:59.359
Because it looked like she was an editor.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:01.680
She's like, Oh, I have a big announcement in the next week.
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:05.759
So anyway, she became an agent and then I ended up submitting to her and signed with her.
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:11.920
Um and then she left, she left Bookends, and then I just stayed with Bookends and went to James McGowan.
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:16.240
And that's how um, but yeah, that was back in 2017.
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:33.279
So after querying a solid seven or eight years, taking some breaks, realizing I needed to re probably start some, you know, once some stories didn't get any traction, then it's like I probably need to write new stories and things like that.
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:35.599
But um, it was a long journey.
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.960
I feel that I've been querying for I think it'll be seven years this year.
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:39.279
Yeah.
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:41.759
I think we can both relate to that more than love.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:42.480
Yeah.
00:33:42.720 --> 00:34:02.000
Well, and and and truthfully, most writers I know, well, I would say at least 50% of the writers I know, um, it's probably right around that seven to ten year mark before their first, and this is picture books, um, their first picture book comes out.
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:08.719
So uh it is normal, it is normal to be querying for many, many, many years.
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:20.000
Yeah, we've heard so many different journeys, you know, now that we've been doing the podcast, and that's been my favorite part of this is that everyone, everyone has their own unique journey.
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:26.000
And you know, it it's just so this industry is so crazy.
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:28.159
It is.
00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:30.800
It is it I love it.
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:37.119
It's so much fun, but it is also so hard and so odd.
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:42.400
I feel like everyone has this like like idea of like, oh, once I get an agent, I've made it.
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:46.960
But I feel like every agent is very different, every deal is very different, every journey is very different.
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:51.920
Um, I'm curious, what is your guys' relationship with your agent like?
00:34:52.079 --> 00:35:02.719
Not not like uh on a super personal level, but um, could you talk a little bit about like how you communicate with your respective agents, what communication turnaround time looks like, like sort of the vibe?
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:10.960
Um, I guess just to show like to kind of normalize how different they are and to give people an idea of what they should expect when they have an agent that they like that is doing their job well.
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:19.119
To me, I think it's everything is kind of based on really open communication and trying to make sure that you're both on the same page about things.
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:42.159
So Eliza and I connect um pretty regularly, I would say, um, over everything from like new projects, possible new work, um uh contracts, you know, um, if it's just really good to have someone else's eyes on some of these things and someone who has a deep awareness of the industry and what to ask for, I guess.
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:47.119
Um and so yeah, we discussed all of these things pretty frequently.
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:52.159
I I think it's an initiative from both sides, to be honest.
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:58.159
Like it's you you you need to give if you want to get back, I guess, you know.
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:18.320
So just I try to keep things really clear, communication, communication-wise, if there's going to be any anticipated like changes in timelines for projects, um, just keeping each other aware of that so that she's able to go out there and you know ask for more time or you know, maybe negotiate.
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:28.480
Um, so yeah, I I I love that it's really collaborative and it it has been for me in my instance, and I yeah, I'm really appreciative of that.
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:32.480
When you say you talk frequently, do you mean like once a week, once a month?
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:34.079
Like what is frequent for you?
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:34.719
Right.
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:37.119
I think um it depends on the project, to be honest.
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:44.559
Like some projects, you know, are just really smooth sailing and there's really no hiccups, and then some might might need a quick chat.
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:47.760
So it could just be a spontaneous, like, hey, are you available?
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:51.440
Or, you know, something that we're just communicating over Slack or something like that.
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:56.960
So um it could be once a week, but sometimes it could just be maybe once a month.
00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:58.079
Um, yeah.
00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:11.840
And then we do have like catch-ups just about, you know, where my work is at, or like when I'm feeling like, okay, maybe we need to relook at the cat page and put up some of the new pieces, or she might be like, let's update your portfolio and let's put in some of the newer stuff.
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:16.079
Um, so yeah, I think it's it's it's a really good flow.
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:28.480
I guess it's not as structured in the sense that I'm not planning it in my calendar, but I know that I can reach out to her at any point of time and that she's gonna be available to yeah, discuss things.
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:30.880
That's actually pretty similar for me too.
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:42.239
Um I know that if I have a question, uh, we generally communicate through email, unless there's something we need to talk through or forget an offer, then then that that becomes a phone call.
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:52.800
But generally speaking, it's if I have a question, um, I have I'm co-agented with Sophie Shoemaker, who spells her name a little bit differently than mine, so we are not related, and James McGowan.
00:37:53.280 --> 00:38:02.159
Um and if if I have a question, I email it both of them, one of them, depending upon who gets to it first.
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:06.880
Um, but within 24 hours, I usually have a comment.
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:11.360
Um, if it's a specific question, or if it's like, here's a manuscript, I'd love some feedback on.
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:13.679
It's like, okay, great, you know, we'll put it in our queue.
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:18.960
I mean, it's it they always acknowledge my email very quickly, which is wonderful.
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:29.599
Um I always schedule a call at the beginning of the year, um, just to kind of like talk about like where my brain is at, what I'm thinking, and things like that.
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:42.960
Um, if I ever feel the need to call, um, you know, I'll email them and it's great we do it, but uh it's not we don't have like once a month we chat or you know by email or anything like that.
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:46.880
It's just it's kind of like whatever's going on, whatever we need.
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:58.960
Um so yeah, it's it's it's when when we need it, we will communicate, but it's not like um very regular, I guess.
00:38:59.039 --> 00:38:59.920
It's it's not a schedule.
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:02.400
You're not sending each other memes or anything throughout the day.
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:03.440
No, no.
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:07.920
And you know, and and it's I I think there are some people who have agents like that.
00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:14.320
Um I think that there's several clients that do that with James and Sophie, but I it's just not my style.
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:18.719
I mean, I'm just like I work, I'm very independent, all that stuff.
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:22.079
So I think that um it it's working great for us.
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:25.440
So um, you know, it works.
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:26.000
It works.
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:29.679
I I don't need them as a friend if that means anything.
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:30.880
You know what I'm saying?
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:38.159
Um gosh, with as many people as agents represent, I could imagine it would be very hard for to find any agent that's gonna act like that.
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:39.360
Right, right.
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:50.000
So um, but I'm very and again, I am not a um lawyerly type person and a numbers person.
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:57.599
These royalty statements, this is I've got four three different publishers now and seem to be four.
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:02.320
You would think royalty statements would be similar.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:08.480
Each one, I I it's it's a completely different language to me.
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:11.920
I just I open it up and then I'll be like, okay.
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:14.239
I do have a couple questions, you know.
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:15.360
So it's just funny.
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:22.880
I'm so glad to have an agent or agents who deal with that stuff because it's not where my brain goes.
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:28.159
Um and I'm also a very introvert and I don't like conflict.
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:39.360
So if if there's something that I love the fact that I have an agent, if I need them to address something with an editor, that they will do that.
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:43.199
Um because that's not my strong point.
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:50.800
So it is great to have that person um as a partner on my side, um, looking out for my interests.
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.320
And I am so grateful that agents do that.
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:57.199
I'm glad you guys both found agents that really work for you.
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:03.119
Um I'm curious, when you had your agent call, are there things that you wish you had asked?
00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:09.280
And what are some things that you would recommend someone listening asking if they were to get an agent call?
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:14.800
Um, Deborah, do you want should I okay, I'll take this one first.
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:17.440
Um for me it was really spontaneous.
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:23.679
So I I I don't think I I don't think it landed uh with me that it was like an agent call.
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.199
So I went in really, really relaxed.
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:32.960
Um, I had a bunch of questions, which I thought um I was really curious about.
00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:42.639
And Eliza and I both had talked about, she said, you know, ask me anything, like be really transparent about everything that you have on your mind about what you expect out of representation.
00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:50.559
And um so yeah, I think for me personally, I love working on projects that I deeply connect with.
00:41:50.800 --> 00:42:03.840
And so um I'd love to be able to have a quick look if the publisher is happy to share, if the author is happy to share as well, like an initial manuscript or whatever's available when I am being considered for a project.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:11.199
Um, and if I connect with it, I'm I know that okay, I'm gonna be really sold on this, I'm gonna really want to work on this.
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:16.719
And so being on the same page about projects that come your way with your agent, I think is really important.
00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:21.679
Um, so that's something that I would really recommend to illustrators looking for that.
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:33.840
Like if you know the kind of work that you want to do and you're able to communicate that with your agent, your agent knows how to, you know, filter, I guess, like, you know, what comes your way and what to say no to, I guess.
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:40.320
Um, and then second to that, I would probably say transparency about budgets and what your worth is.
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:47.679
Um, like some that's something that I struggle with, and I know other illustrator friends have also struggled with in the past, especially now.
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.599
I feel like there's a lot more conversation happening about budgets and you know, things like that.
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:55.360
But um, when I first started, it wasn't it wasn't like that.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:59.519
So it was a bit more vague, I guess, or much more varied.
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:19.679
And so having an idea or and someone who who knows perhaps what picture books are receiving and has a has a has an idea of the range that um uh works for a picture book, but also what your worth, like your work's worth might be, um, to give you a better idea of like where you stand with that.
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:26.719
I think being open about that and knowing that the person's on your team, that's a that's a good thing to discuss with your agent as well.
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:28.159
Yeah, on that agent call.
00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:28.800
Yeah.
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:30.079
It's a great answer.
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:39.360
For me, um, you know, communication style, um, frequency of communication, um, you know, uh, those are definitely questions to ask.
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:46.719
And um, I've always asked for uh if I can reach out to some of their clients just to find out.
00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:49.440
So I think that's always very important to ask.
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:55.599
Um it was so long ago that I was querying.
00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:57.280
I don't really remember.
00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:13.039
Um, if they are a newer agent, um Uh I think it's very important to know if they're at an agency with some experienced agents because I do think that there's a lot of people who want to put out their hat and call themselves agents.
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:24.400
But if they've never agented before, um, if they're not, if they're trying to do it solo, I think don't think they'll have the context.
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:38.000
So I do think an agency with a record of sales um is very important, or if it's a new agent that, you know, have they agented at a different agency?
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:41.679
I think the experience and the context are very important.
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:52.079
So um just to be wary of new agents if they're not at an agency where they might be getting mentored.
00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:53.360
That's a good tip.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:45:01.519
I'm just curious if like if you guys would work together again, how often do you work with the same like illustrator or author?
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:03.119
Or do you just is this it?
00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:06.079
Is like this your project and then you go your separate ways.
00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:08.320
How does that how does that work?
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:10.559
Does it depend on how the book does?
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:16.639
Just gonna put this out into the universe that I would love to work with Deborah again if there's anyone listening.
00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:20.880
Yes, I I have visions for more Josie's stories.
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:22.000
So we will see.
00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:22.800
I'm here for it.
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:23.039
Yeah.
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:26.000
Again, a lot of it relies on how the book sells.
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:35.280
Um uh Freaky Funky Fish and Peculiar Primates are companion books with um with Running Press Kids, my first publisher.
00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:41.119
So um, those are two books that I worked with the same illustrator because they they are meant to be companions.
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:53.760
So I was grateful that Claire Powell did both of those books because, you know, again, the illustrators, the illustrations make our these books so much of what they are.
00:45:54.079 --> 00:46:03.039
So um I would absolutely if love, um, if I can come up with a good storyline for Josie, I would really hope that love would agree to.
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:05.199
Absolutely.
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:06.880
Oh my goodness, I would be honored.
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:08.639
I'd love to be considered for it.
00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:10.800
I would just love, I'm just gonna put it out there again.
00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:12.639
Like, you know, if anyone's listening, yeah.
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:13.280
Right.
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:13.760
Yes.
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:16.400
Um, no, her work is amazing.
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:22.400
I um it's fun to see a character come to life.
00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:24.639
It's really, really fun.
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:26.800
It's really fun to see words come to life.
00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:32.320
Um, I have been so amazed um with all of my books.
00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:35.199
Um, you know, I wrote a book about the wind.
00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:41.599
And how an illustrator takes those words and makes something physical out of it.
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:49.360
It's just it is the most amazing experience to get that email from your editor.
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:51.119
Do you want to see some first sketches?
00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:52.400
I'm like, yes.
00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:56.960
And um it it's such a fun process.
00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:00.719
It's a frustrating industry, but it is a fun, fun.
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:04.159
Um frustrating is the wrong word.
00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:08.719
It's it's a interesting publishing is interesting.
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:19.760
Um, but I can say the highlights uh is getting that contract or the offer, and then the when you get that email from your editor, we have her sketches.
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:26.559
And then seeing the black and white come to color, it it's just I can't say how fun it is.
00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:28.800
It's just the most fun I've ever had.
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:30.719
So love.
00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:32.320
Thank you so much.
00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:37.039
Josie is adorable, she's adorable.
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:40.639
So can I just share where this Josie name came from?
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:41.519
Yes, please.
00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:43.199
I've never written fiction.
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:48.000
Well, I started writing fiction, and I'm like, oh, now I have I get to come up with a character name.
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:54.559
So um I have three sons, and we've never found out with any of our boys if what the gender was.
00:47:54.880 --> 00:48:00.480
So um, when we were pregnant with our third, and I had a dream when I was pregnant with our first that we had two boys and a girl.
00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:04.159
So I was convinced our third child was going to be a girl.
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:08.480
And so my husband and I couldn't agree on boy names, and like it doesn't matter.
00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:15.760
And we were gonna, um, Margaret was gonna be the name until about two weeks before um our third child was due.
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:18.320
And my husband came home and he's like, you know what?
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:20.719
I think it'd be fun to have a little Josie.
00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:23.360
Um, little Josephine, call her Josie.
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:32.559
And I'm like, and I love the name because Joseph was the name that my parents were gonna name their first boy, and they never had a boy.
00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:35.920
So I'm like, oh gosh, Josephine, Josie would be so cute.
00:48:36.079 --> 00:48:39.199
And then our third child was a boy, so we never used it.
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:43.599
So now I'm using all these names when I read whenever I write kitchen.
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:45.440
I'm like, hmm, what name can I come up with?
00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:47.679
It was fun to make up a name, and that's what Josie.
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:51.199
Josie was going to be the girl that I never had.
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:52.719
So gosh.
00:48:56.559 --> 00:48:58.639
Yeah, so there's Josie.
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:03.519
So she was gonna be the daughter that I never had, but I love my son, Chateau.
00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:05.199
I love that.
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:12.559
I love this so meaningful too that you got to, you know, bring something in and the love got to like bring her to life.
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:15.440
It's such a magical process in so many ways.
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:16.639
Just it it is.
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:18.159
Magic is the right word.
00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:31.039
It is just magical um to see something that I've I always write my first draft in handwriting and type it up, but you know, just something that's black and white to become, you know, this.
00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:32.159
It's just, I don't know.
00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:33.199
It is magic.
00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:34.639
Magic is the right word.
00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:36.000
It's for anyone listening.
00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:39.199
She's holding up the beautiful cover that is about to come out.
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:47.920
Um, before we let you go, could we get you to pitch the book to anyone looking for a gorgeous illustrated uh picture book sometime in August?
00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:48.480
Sure.
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:51.840
This is a per Sunday Scaries is a perfect book for back to school.
00:49:52.000 --> 00:50:01.519
And for all of those kids who have that touch of anxiety that I think many of us face, um, Josie and her parents also experience Sunday Scaries.
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:11.360
And uh the book is about how the family turns the Sunday scaries around and Monday isn't quite as bad as it used to be.
00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:12.480
Amazing.
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:14.559
I am putting oh go ahead.
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:19.440
I'm definitely gonna pick it up for my five-year-old who's gonna enter kindergarten this fall.
00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:22.800
This seems perfect for yeah, something to help her.
00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:27.599
Yeah, and there is back there, there are tips in the back matter.
00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:33.599
Um, I worked with a school counselor, I'm not a counselor, but you know, I just wanted something helpful.
00:50:33.760 --> 00:50:39.360
Um, when I had them when I was a child, um we didn't talk about our feelings.
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:44.480
I don't know if that was my family or it's just back then in the 70s and early 80s.
00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:45.199
I I don't know.
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:47.840
I just felt like you bottled up your feelings.
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:56.639
So I just really wanted to let families know that they're not alone when their kid is going through this.
00:50:56.880 --> 00:51:01.440
Um, because I know there's many, many kids who go through this.
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:09.039
And um so I it's a sweet book, it's humorous, but I think it's also going to be helpful.
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:10.239
Yeah, definitely.
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:16.880
I will put that link in the show notes for anyone interested in pre-ordering or uh ordering, depending on when you listen to this.
00:51:17.039 --> 00:51:19.679
And yeah, thank you so much, Deborah and Lau for being here.
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:21.199
It was so nice to meet you both.
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:23.199
I can't wait for your book to come out.
00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:23.920
Thank you.
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:26.000
Thank you so much for having us.
00:51:26.719 --> 00:51:28.400
This was this was a lot of fun.
00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:29.199
Bye.
00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:10.640
Hello, I'm Maria.
00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:11.679
And I'm Suzanne.
00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:16.480
And welcome to Publishing Pals Podcast, a podcast where two pals talk about publishing.
00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:21.600
For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published.
00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:27.920
Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this gatekeeped, confusing, but also incredibly fun and rewarding industry.
00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:34.560
And today for our interview episode, we are joined by Lavanya Naidu and Deborah Shoemaker.
00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:36.399
Thank you so much for being here, guys.
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:47.280
Hi, so this is an author-illustrator duo who have worked together on a recent upcoming picture book.
00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:57.439
Deborah Shoemaker lives in the suburbs of Northern Virginia with her husband and two cats and is wrecked by James McGowan and Sophie Shoemaker, no relation, at Bookend's Literary Agency.
00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:07.760
She has been getting book deals since 2019 and is now the author of books such as Freaky Funky Fish, Peculiar Primates, Tell Someone, and Wind is a Dance.
00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:12.400
When she isn't reading or writing, she enjoys hiking, gardening, and watching Jeopardy.
00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:20.879
The book she wrote with illustrations by Lavanya Naidu, Sunday Scaries, is set for release in August of this year.
00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:28.319
And Lavanya Naidu is an artist with a degree in animation film design from the National Institute of Design.
00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:30.719
She is repped by Eliza R.
00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:39.200
Hoover at the Cat Agency and has illustrated books for a wide range of publishers and imprints, including Scholastic, Delacourt, Viking Books, and Candlewick.
00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:47.280
She has worked as an animator, pre-production artist, head of design, episodic director in animated content, and even worked on kids' games.
00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:53.280
Originally from Kolkata, she currently resides in Melbourne, Australia with her husband and dog.
00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:56.239
And we are so excited to have you on today.
00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:04.079
Correct.
00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:04.799
Yes.
00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:11.520
And I I know it's I when we logged on, you guys, uh, this is your first time meeting like virtually, right?
00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:12.719
Yes.
00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:16.879
It is really exciting to uh see her face.
00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:20.000
I know that this is a podcast, but I'm seeing her face right now.
00:02:20.240 --> 00:02:21.360
And um, it is.
00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:26.960
It's very exciting to do an interview with an illustrator of my book because I've this is the first time I've done something like this.
00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:28.080
No, same for me.
00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:37.120
I'm really excited to meet Deborah and also we could gain insights on, you know, how how Sunday Scaries came into being and all of the behind-the-scenes stuff.
00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:43.759
So I'm really excited to be meeting her in in person virtually as well, and all of you guys too.
00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:57.199
Yeah, and I think maybe there's some confusion um about the publishing industry just in general, and people think of having their book illustrated, how much communication there is between the artist and the author when it's not an author illustrator.
00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:05.520
Um, can you guys talk a little bit about like what amount of interaction have you guys had with either illustrators or authors before in previous books?
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:11.599
And and just like what input you get through like an art director, through their agent, et cetera.
00:03:11.919 --> 00:03:18.479
Um as is typical, I've never collaborated um with the illustrators.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:40.960
It's always I get information from the editor, I give feedback to the editor who goes to the art director and then the illustrator, or maybe maybe there's some communication between the editor and the illustrator, but uh there I've never had one-on-one contact with an illustrator until after the project is done.
00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:42.400
Oh wow.
00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:47.919
As someone not in the picture book world, that that definitely is shocking.
00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:50.479
You think we do mostly.
00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:50.800
Yeah.
00:03:51.199 --> 00:03:51.520
Yeah.
00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:53.840
Most people are shocked to hear that.
00:03:53.919 --> 00:04:02.240
Uh, when I do school visits, everyone assumes that, you know, all the little kids assume that we know each other, we're best friends, we're neighbors, or something or other.
00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:13.439
Um, but no, I've never uh had a conversation, like a I've had email conversations after um after the illustrations are finally done.
00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:21.040
I've then basically reached out and just you know expressed my gratitude and my awe in the process.
00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:29.519
But uh the traditionally both editors and art directors don't want that communication.
00:04:29.680 --> 00:04:48.319
And I think my my understanding is, which I agree with, they don't want the author directing, trying to micromanage the process because the art is it's it is uh just as important as the text.
00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:55.680
I mean, it it just adds so much to the story, and uh the illustrator is the professional in the art.
00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:57.600
I believe me, I am not.
00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:05.759
So um most people are shocked at how little, if any, collaboration we've had, and we've had none.
00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:13.040
I think it's very much the same as what Deborah's mentioned already in in the case of illustrators as well.
00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:18.079
Um, it's certainly post the project is when we connect.
00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:27.680
Um and now I think because we have social media and Instagram, we probably follow each other during the project and connect over that um for chats and things.
00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:35.680
And but it's it's never really um in that sense, you know, we don't work together, I guess, through the process of the book.
00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:38.319
And I I completely agree with what Deborah's saying as well.
00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:54.000
I think it's to keep sort of, I guess maybe it's we all kind of tend to have like a certain vision for something, and maybe it's to try and have as much of an unbiased, I guess, viewpoint um of how the book could be represented.
00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:57.439
So that's probably why, but it does make sense.
00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:01.519
But yeah, it's also it's also great just connecting afterwards as well.
00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:05.199
And you know, this this is amazing to really get to know the behind the scenes.
00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:09.199
Like I'm always curious, I'm like, oh, how did how did the author come up with this idea?
00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:12.240
And like, what was the the thought process and the journey?
00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:14.560
So I'm really excited to hear about that as well.
00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:16.480
I'm gonna learn lots about Sunday Scary System.
00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:17.839
I just know it.
00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:23.279
Yeah, maybe we should start there with like Deborah, what was your initial spark?
00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:31.199
So the longer I'm in the published world, the more I realize there is no typical.
00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:34.160
Uh, my first book was the typical.
00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:36.480
I wrote a book, I found an agent.
00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:39.279
Actually, I wrote the freaky funky fish.
00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:48.560
Well, after I had my first agent, um the first few books didn't sell, so but then she would submit to the editors, and that's how it goes.
00:06:48.879 --> 00:06:52.480
This book has a very interesting history.
00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:58.480
Um, Kanof actually bought a different picture book that I wrote way back.
00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:00.959
They offered in 2021, I think.
00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:05.120
And then the editor left Kanof.
00:07:05.839 --> 00:07:16.480
And then um Kanoff made a decision that that was not a book they no longer want wanted for their list.
00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.560
But they loved my writing, they wanted to work with me.
00:07:21.279 --> 00:07:27.519
Could I pitch them several ideas in the SEL space with a little bit of humor?
00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:33.199
So that was um very different.
00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:41.600
So it was two rounds of pitches, and um so you know, I thought back when I was a kid, what was I struggling with?
00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:44.879
And um did not call it Sunday Scaries.
00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:54.240
I actually the pitch I had it was called Sunday Night Blues, um, about a girl who would get a stomachache every Sunday night because she didn't want to go to school the next day.
00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:58.319
And that was in my second round of pitches, and then an editor grabbed on that.
00:07:58.480 --> 00:08:00.079
She's like, that's what we want.
00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:04.319
So then I had to write an outline and then the book.
00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:20.240
So it was actually much more of a collaborative process with my editor, uh, the new editor that you know I was assigned, um, that I've ever had, because usually it's the manuscript is written, my agent submits to several publishers, and then an editor falls in love and makes an offer on it.
00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:22.319
So this was backwards.
00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:24.480
I'm so curious.
00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:30.480
What was it like pitching directly to an editor instead of sending something to your agent and then then sending it out?
00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:33.279
Was it like really rough, like a log line you were pitching in?
00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:50.320
It was, I mean, I did it with my agent, but um, it was like just six like three to four line paragraphs, like potential title, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, the kind of like I always think of a pitch as kind of like what the jacket copy might be type thing.
00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:50.799
Okay.
00:08:50.960 --> 00:09:03.360
Uh so it was, you know, and then once once one was accepted, then I actually had to write the story, which was the scariest thing ever, because my first four books are either nonfiction or concept.
00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:10.080
So I've never written a fiction, I've never successfully sold a fiction picture book with a plot until this one.
00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:15.759
So um it was scary, but it was also very fun.
00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:20.159
I it was it was such an unusual process this time around.
00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:25.759
But then again, if I look at my five books, they've all each one has its own unique story.
00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:30.080
So there there is very little typical in the publishing industry.
00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:47.360
I'm um I'm very curious what the um after you like got your notes together and everything and like submitted your final text for the book, um, what changed between you submitting it and the final version that Lav got to illustrate?
00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:55.440
Like I would do, I guess more just like for people listening, like illustrating like how things continue to evolve after you sell it.
00:09:55.919 --> 00:09:56.399
Yeah.
00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:04.159
So again, she asked for an outline, which I found very strange for a picture book.
00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:10.639
Um, so I wrote like two rough drafts and sent it to James, and he's like, okay, now kind of backtrack.
00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:12.879
They want an outline, we're gonna give them an outline.
00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:19.200
Okay, so I I wrote a very, I mean, like very rough draft and then made it to an outline.
00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:29.840
But then she gave me a lot of feedback on the outline, and you know, um it was a strange process, but um, but again, it was fun to collaborate with the editor.
00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.480
She really wanted this to succeed.
00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:36.080
Um, and um, I I loved the end result.
00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:38.720
Um, definitely some plot lines changed.
00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:47.919
Um, once I started writing it, then I realized I kind of had two different reasons going on initially about why Josie had such a stomachache.
00:10:48.159 --> 00:11:12.240
And I realized between the I don't know, three to five back and forths of the drafts, I guess, with Gianna, um you know, that the storyline things needed to be streamlined and maybe a little bit of a hint added somewhere just to kind of get the storyline to tie together.
00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:15.200
So it was an interesting process.
00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:31.440
Um and then um so what Lavana saw, um Yeah, I I don't think much changed once uh we kind of got the sign-off from the editorial team.
00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:33.279
I don't think that much changed.
00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:39.519
So, but it was definitely it started out as an outline that I fleshed out, and there's probably three and four.
00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:44.240
And I bring my critique book, like, okay, critique group, help me out here, you know.
00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.039
This is what she's hoping for, this is what I'm doing.
00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:57.600
And I am so thankful for my critique groups, like all of my critique groups who helped me through this process because it was not the typical way I've written a picture book.
00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:02.960
Yeah, I bet going from that uh from nonfiction must have been a completely different experience.
00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:03.759
Yeah.
00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:09.840
And the other book I had written was much more of a concept emotional type book.
00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:12.320
So there was a little bit of a plot, but not much.
00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:15.759
This is the first where you know there is an actual plot.
00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:20.080
So I've struggled with plot.
00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:23.840
So I'm so glad with how it turned out.
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:25.840
Well, the book is great, it's super cute.
00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:27.600
I love the illustrations, Lav.
00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:28.799
Your stuff is gorgeous.
00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:32.000
I was like so excited to interview you when I saw your website.
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:33.279
Um thank you.
00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:35.039
I I'm very curious.
00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:38.720
Uh Deborah, were there art notes that Lav got that you had written?
00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:43.440
And Lav, I'm curious how you go about interpreting art notes when you get them.
00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:45.440
Like what does your brainstorming process look like?
00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:47.919
What did what are things like on your end?
00:12:48.399 --> 00:13:04.159
So there were very few art notes, and I'm always curious if the editor ends up taking them out, but I think I had one where I just kind of wanted to explain the scene a little bit that she was like throwing fake snowflakes so that her parents would see snowflakes.
00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:14.000
Um, I think I had that um just at the beginning, I wanted to be very clear that she was walking out of the school because my my my first draft had like a scuba bell ringing, and we just made that an illustrator's note.
00:13:14.159 --> 00:13:18.320
And then there was one I was looking at my revision process earlier today.
00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:28.799
There was one spot where the parents are also having their own Sunday scaries, and I had some lines in there about them checking their emails and whatever.
00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:33.279
And in the end, we actually took that out and I just put it as an illustration note.
00:13:33.360 --> 00:13:40.559
I wanted to make sure that Lav understood that their Sunday night routine wasn't the best routine either.
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.679
So um I think that was it, right, Love?
00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:45.120
Yeah, pretty much.
00:13:45.279 --> 00:13:48.080
I think it's exactly uh they kept all of that.
00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:51.440
So I did receive all of that when I went through the first draft.
00:13:51.519 --> 00:14:05.679
And I think that's really useful as well because it gives me clues as to what are the most important story story points to hit visually as well, and what are the things that are important, I guess, for driving a certain point.
00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:10.480
Like what you mentioned about her parents going through that sensation of having the Sunday scaries.
00:14:10.559 --> 00:14:12.720
I go through this every weekend.
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:19.279
Today's a public holiday, it's Monday here, so I'm just really chill because of that.
00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:26.480
But I absolutely, the minute I read the manuscript, I instantly connected with it because I think most people do, right?
00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:30.879
I mean, I've got this like love-hate thing with Mondays.
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:33.840
Um, I've I've known this my whole life.
00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:42.080
And um just being able to connect with the way that Josie feels, and I feel like it's just not not just kids who would connect with the book.
00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:49.519
I definitely feel like all of the adults, whoever's gonna be reading this to their kids as well, is going to really relate to this.
00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:56.720
Um so yeah, from that perspective, the art notes um were really helpful in in that instance.
00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:05.679
And um going into how to interpret that, I think for me, the challenge with the book was that this is a feeling that Josie has.
00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:16.320
And how do you give um physical form to something like that, which which allows kids to be able to process um what is really happening?
00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:22.879
So initially I was thinking, oh, it could be, you know, what can we do to it to give it physical form?
00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:29.440
It could be a monster, but then what if it's actually just Monday itself, you know, that's sort of creeping.
00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:36.639
It's all of its, you know, the letters have arms and they're sort of like creeping up on Josie as as the weekend comes to an end.
00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:43.759
Um, so yeah, that's that's pretty much yeah, where I went went off of one, yeah, creatively.
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:49.440
I want to chime in how much I love what you did with the Monday word.
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:52.960
And I mean, it's scary but kid friendly, scary.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:55.200
And it was just with the the creepiness of it.
00:15:55.440 --> 00:16:03.440
I think that I never really thought about what kind of visual I'm not a visual thinker, so I I never it never even crossed my mind.
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:05.919
Oh, I wonder what the illustrator will do with this.
00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.639
And I just love, love, love, love.
00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:14.480
I think it is so adorable, and you know, just with the little touch of the scary feeling.
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:16.720
And I I hope kids love it.
00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:17.519
Thank you.
00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:19.120
No, it was really beautiful.
00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:26.879
Um, did you were there a lot of revisions that it went through, or was that like your initial concept, and then you just were able to take it to final?
00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.840
I think uh it was really collaborative.
00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:36.480
And um, you know, my designer and um Gianna and Tallinn, they were really open to my ideas.
00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:41.440
So initially I just went ahead and explored a few different options of how we could represent it.
00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.399
Uh, Deborah, it was initially quite scary.
00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:49.600
And then I think I went to the extreme and then we paired it back.
00:16:49.840 --> 00:17:02.559
Um and if you see it through the book, it's actually it just gets a little, you know, the the hands and the fingers, they start to get a little creepier and slightly chunkier as well to kind of build that notion of fear.
00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:21.279
Um, so it was it was great, like back and forth, and you know, really working with the team to try and land on something that would be um, like Deborah said, not too scary, but also at the same time really selling the um, you know, the concept of this being Josie's anxiety is building with every week that this happens.
00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:22.079
Yeah.
00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:35.440
I'm curious now that the book is done and you guys are about to have it out in the world, um, I know more than it it was a few decades ago, artists and illustrators are expected to do a lot on more self-promotion when forthcoming books happen.
00:17:35.599 --> 00:17:46.640
I'm curious as to what promotion looks like from the artist side and from the writer's side and how that is different and how maybe you collaborate with authors or illustrators for projects on things like this.
00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:55.599
For me, as I'm not based in the in the States, I a lot of my promotional stuff would be digital and how to go about things digitally.
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:57.279
So I am very excited.
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:13.119
I've got like a few reels and things planned for social media, uh, of course, pre-order links on my website and promoting that whenever you know um it's necessary to like bring the audience into getting some pre-order sales, but also art process.
00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:19.200
And I think that's something that I really, really actively want to start sharing with each of my picture books.
00:18:19.279 --> 00:18:26.720
So I've started like a little YouTube channel that has screen recordings of my illustrations um on books.
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:28.319
And so you can tune into that.
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:35.119
I'll link all of that once it's out so that you can see the process of how you know specific illustrations in the book have worked.
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:42.799
I also want to do more breakdown style um videos or reels that's a bit quicker, I guess, to watch.
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:44.079
So I'll be doing some of that.
00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:45.680
And I want to do some fun stuff with Josie.
00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.720
So I've got a few things planned that I'm really excited about.
00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.519
Um yeah, stay tuned, coming weeks.
00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:53.359
That sounds fantastic.
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:54.880
I can't wait to see it.
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:56.079
Thank you.
00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:13.920
Um, as for my end, you know, um, I live in an area that has lots of local independent bookstores, Northern Virginia, and they're spread out far enough where I feel like if I do one thing one weekend and another thing another weekend, that I'm not like hurting the business of the individual bookstores.
00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:17.920
So um I've got a couple events and I'm still working on scheduling a few more.
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:22.960
Um, I love doing book festivals, so I'm in the process of applying for book festivals.
00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:27.039
So that'll be like most book festivals they want a book within the last year.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:32.480
So it'll be from this fall through next summer that I'll apply for some book festivals.
00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:37.279
Are there any favorite local bookstores or book festivals that you'd like to plug?
00:19:37.839 --> 00:19:42.559
Uh Scrawl Books in Reston, Virginia is uh my go-to one.
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:45.119
Um, Leesburg also has one, Birch Tree Books.
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:51.359
Um yeah, they're both equidistant from me.
00:19:51.519 --> 00:19:53.440
So um I utilize both.
00:19:53.599 --> 00:20:00.079
Um and then there's a fellow uh Virginian author who just opened up a bookstore in Aquaquan.
00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:05.519
So um I'm doing something with her the day before school starts for her county.
00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:08.720
So I felt like that that timing was working out really well.
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:13.920
So other than that, uh I mean, you know, I you feel like you're shouting into the wind.
00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:20.559
I mean, it'll, you know, definitely, you know, I'm doing a pre-order campaign to, you know, give out some stickers and bookmarks.
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:24.880
If they order from scroll, I'll, you know, I'll put in the stickers and bookmarks.
00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:31.759
Um yeah, I promotion is a challenge.
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:39.440
I never know what's working or not working, but I love talking about books, and so I'll just do whatever feels right at the time.
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.079
How do you go about booking stuff like that?
00:20:42.160 --> 00:20:46.000
Um, or like finding places or festivals to advertise at?
00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:59.119
Um I created a list based off of like writers digest, and there's just signs some different lists that float around for um book festivals that include kids' books and adult books.
00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:00.799
And I have a spreadsheet.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:02.400
I like to keep track of things.
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:12.319
So um then I just, you know, put them when they typically are and when, you know, like last year when they were expecting admissions or not admissions, applications.
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:15.519
Um, so I just kind of have a spreadsheet where I'm keeping track of things.
00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:19.680
And um, if it's within driving distance, I'll apply.
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:28.000
Do you feel like your publisher is giving you any support, or do you feel like it's at this point mostly like self-driven?
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:34.720
I know the support is there as far as they're the ones sending it for the the reviews and things like that.
00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:36.960
That's something that I couldn't do.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:52.160
Um but the the the image that lots of movies give where you're being put on book tours and the publisher pays, you know, for all of that stuff.
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:56.319
That's not reality in picture book world, at least not for me.
00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.519
Um I mean, my publishers up until now have been pretty small.
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:08.160
So So um I can I certainly have the publicity department that I can ask questions and all of that stuff.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:22.960
So there's support, but you know, it's a new it's a new world where everyone in publishing is working so hard that I feel like I need to be doing stuff on my own.
00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:24.240
And I like to do it.
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:28.799
I mean, I love doing book festivals and I like doing book store events, so I don't mind doing that stuff.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:29.839
I really enjoy it.
00:22:30.079 --> 00:22:34.000
Yeah, I feel like editors are just, you know, they want that.
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:40.079
They want that, but then the authors uh and illustrators, you know, you want the support.
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:47.599
It's just, you know, who's gonna, who's gonna take the lead, who's gonna make that, you know, move the needle.
00:22:47.759 --> 00:23:01.839
It's so I think especially for new authors, it's so confusing and people feel so intimidated by having to do the marketing uh in any form for their book because you know, I know a lot of us are introverts and putting yourself out there is tough.
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:04.559
So like kudos to you guys for like me.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:08.079
And I'm I'm glad Lav does the videos and the reels and all that stuff.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:10.559
But that is not my cup of tea whatsoever.
00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:22.240
I will do posts on Instagram and Facebook and Blue Sky, but uh again, there's just so many different avenues that you just feel like you're shouting into the yeah, yeah, the cloud.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:23.440
Definitely.
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:33.119
I feel like it can get quite overwhelming as well because you just don't know what's going to work and what which you know audience is going to connect with you at what time.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:43.359
So it's nice to put stuff out there and both Deborah and I just reshare each other's stuff whenever we're posting, so that you know, we're both kind of shouting into the this together.
00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:48.400
But it's it's great, and I get it.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:53.119
It's because you know, there's it's it's an there's an overwhelming number of books that's gonna come out.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:56.960
So you never really know what's going to catch someone's eye.
00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:59.519
So, you know, you just you just do what you can.
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:02.480
And I would love to give a shout out to my editor.
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:09.440
When she acquired the book, initially I called it Sunday Night Blues because I I had envisioned just kind of lots of little wordplay with musical terms.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:10.799
I thought that would be a lot of fun.
00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:18.079
And when she acquired it, she's like, okay, there's one thing we're going to do, and that is change the title to Sunday Scaries.
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:19.200
And I'm like, oh, really?
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:19.519
Why?
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:20.640
She's like, Google it.
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:27.519
So I did, and I realized it's it's a feeling that we've all had, but I never knew it being called Sunday Scaries.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:30.480
And she's like, it is such a buzzword right now.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:33.279
And I mean, I think it's tied.
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:36.400
There's a commercial, I think it's tied.
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:39.359
Even my one of my sisters texted me during the Super Bowl.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:42.319
She's like, Oh, they just used the term Sunday Scaries.
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:43.599
I'm like, I know.
00:24:43.839 --> 00:24:49.279
So my editor was brilliant when she's like, it is going to be called Sunday Scaries, period.
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:50.400
I'm like, okay.
00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:53.200
What a functive term for it, too.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:53.680
Yeah.
00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:54.079
Yeah.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:54.480
Yeah.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:24:58.880
It is a very I knew it was a common feeling.
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.680
I didn't realize there was like this term for it.
00:25:01.759 --> 00:25:08.400
Um, so um, I want to give credit to you know, Gianna for insisting on the title change.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:14.640
And then again, the ill the the cover is just adorable with the little hands grabbing at Josie.
00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:15.359
So laugh.
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:17.039
I I'm so thrilled with it.
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:19.680
So I do think that it's catchy.
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:31.200
So hopefully it'll grab the eyes of a lot of people as they're you know browsing in bookstores or or perusing online as we try to shout into the universe.
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:34.319
I hope so too.
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:36.240
I'm excited for your guys' release.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:47.200
Um I I think just talking about, you know, like getting your book acquired and and working on it, I know there's a lot of opaqueness in the industry regarding what authors and illustrators make for a given book.
00:25:47.359 --> 00:25:51.519
Um, would you guys mind sharing the range of advances you've been offered for your various projects?
00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:53.519
Because I think you've both done a fair amount.
00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:58.240
Um, and what that was different about the deals that involve bigger versus smaller budgets.
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:05.599
Um yeah, so with me, um, my advances have ranged from 2,500 to um a little bit over 10.
00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:06.640
I think it's 12.
00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.079
Um, and it's all based on the size of the publisher.
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:14.319
So the bigger publisher has given me more than the little publishers.
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:23.279
So um, and I think that's pretty much in line with most of the uh picture book authors that I know.
00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:34.319
It it's typically between that 3,000 and 10,000 range, again, for the people that I know who we uh share that information.
00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:40.559
I'm sure there's authors who get more, but um they're probably much more established than I am.
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:54.240
With illustrators, it could be, you know, it could range anywhere between for picture books specifically, it could range anywhere between like five to sometimes$30,000,$35,000.
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:56.880
So that's that's a really wide range.
00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:11.920
And again, like as what Deborah said, it could be the publisher, you know, the size of, you know, uh the say not the sales per se, but like what they assume the book might um do with numbers.
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:16.720
Uh so there's a lot of factors that go into budgets as well.
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:24.400
And I think for chapter books, it's actually quite different as well, uh, with illustrators because the illustrations are in black and white.
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:30.640
Um, they're not sort of like a 50-50 balance, I guess, with chapter books, um, the way that they are in picture books.
00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:34.880
So they can, the budgets can be really variable, really, really variable.
00:27:35.519 --> 00:27:35.759
Yeah.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:39.359
I'm sure a lot of it it helps that you guys have some great agents.
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:47.920
Um, I know I I I want to give a shout out because the bookend YouTube channel that James McGowan does with Jessica Faust, I thought was tremendously helpful when I was first starting out.
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:49.200
I they seem great.
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:52.319
And I've heard so many good things about the Cat Agency Lab.
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:56.319
Um, I'd love to hear like your experience getting picked up by them.
00:27:57.519 --> 00:27:59.759
So shout out to my agent, Eliza.
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:01.680
I adore her.
00:28:01.839 --> 00:28:02.799
I think she's amazing.
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:05.519
She's such a great cheerleader support system.
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:31.759
Um, and just a really, you know, just a really great teammate to have um back for you as an illustrator because there's so many things like, you know, I think Suzanne mentioned early on that a lot of us are introverts and sometimes you just, you know, there's certain things that you just don't know how to address or how to ask for, you know, whether it's like what you think you're worth, whether it's things in your contract that maybe kind of make you question certain things.
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:44.480
Or and it's just really nice to have somebody who you can talk about these things freely with and, you know, um address some of that, do some of the work that perhaps you might be uncomfortable doing yourself.
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:51.599
Um so I was in animation for a long time before, you know, moving completely to books.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:29:06.799
I was also illustrating books, but it was something that I was doing off hours, you know, kind of like indulging in it, because um with animation and in leadership, you know, as you steadily um as your responsibilities increase, you tend to not draw as much.
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:12.480
And I think I was starting to realize that I really just wanted to draw and just be creative again.
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:35.279
And I experienced um a bit of burnout and then decided to take a bit of a break and just think about, you know, just kind of re-u-align myself a bit and think about what I wanted to do next and just focus on drawing, just enjoy the process and not think so much about, you know, deadlines or like, you know, um deliverables and all of that stuff.
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:39.119
And I found myself just feeling really, really good and really, really happy.
00:29:39.279 --> 00:29:46.640
And it so happened that Eliza reached out to me at that precise point, which is really destiny.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:48.880
Yeah, it was just amazing.
00:29:49.039 --> 00:29:52.160
The timing of it was just, you know, the right person, the right time.
00:29:52.400 --> 00:30:02.880
And I'd always kind of been on the fence about um representation just because I didn't have a lot of awareness about it, and I wasn't really, I hadn't taken a deep dive into publishing just as yet.
00:30:03.200 --> 00:30:07.279
So to me, um, I was open to having a chat.
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:11.279
So we did we got on a call and it was just it was amazing.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:19.519
I could just, you know, ask for everything and we had a really good discussion, and I felt like we were on the same page about just everything.
00:30:19.759 --> 00:30:25.279
So um I decided to take the, you know, take the leap of faith and um go for it.
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:28.160
And I think it's been just an incredible decision.
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:52.960
The agency is amazing, um, very encouraging, very supportive, and also just connecting with all of the other artists and authors within the agency has been amazing because you know, if you're going through things on your project, you've got work in progress that you want to share, and you just want to get just some instant feedback from you know a group of people who you really just admire and respect.
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.119
It's yeah, I'm really thankful for that.
00:30:55.279 --> 00:30:56.960
And of course, Eliza as well.
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:57.920
So yeah.
00:30:58.480 --> 00:30:59.599
How did she find you?
00:30:59.839 --> 00:31:11.759
From what I remember, I think she said that she'd been following my work for a while and had just decided to to reach out, which was yeah, I think I just I feel like I just live under a rock for most days.
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:17.599
So so uh to hear that, I was like, oh my god, that that's amazing.
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:18.400
That's insane.
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:20.079
Thank you so much for reaching out.
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:25.359
And um, yeah, so that's I guess that's how she she found me.
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:26.160
Yeah.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:27.920
What a great story.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:31.279
And how flattering to have like an agent fangirling over you.
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:33.519
And it's beautiful.
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:35.519
Like I get it.
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:36.880
Honestly, I'm so lucky.
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:38.720
Yeah, that's amazing.
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:40.799
Um, and what was your story, Deborah?
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:42.559
You were querying, I believe, correct?
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:44.480
Yeah, I queried for a very long time.
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:48.559
So I wrote my first manuscript, um, gosh, in 2009.
00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:53.039
And I didn't sign with my first agent until until 2017.
00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:59.599
And then it was a year and a half and five manuscripts before I got my first offer for freaky funky fish.
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:04.480
So um, and it was my fifth manuscript with um with my agent.
00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:05.839
I I can't tell you.
00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:14.000
I mean, that was my 15th picture book that I not just quickly wrote, that I wrote and revised and polished.
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:22.960
So it took me a long time to um A, find representation and then B to actually get um my first, yes, with a picture book contract.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:29.039
So um, but I mean I just did it the querying, you know, just following agents.
00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:35.519
I at that time I was on Twitter, that's where actually I was running PB Pitch, um Twitter pitch party.
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:51.680
I was a co-founder of PB Pitch, and it was in 2017 that um an editor who was becoming an agent that I wasn't aware of, she started hurting um pitches.
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:58.160
And so I messaged her saying, um, are you able to send submission guidelines?
00:32:58.240 --> 00:32:59.359
Because it looked like she was an editor.
00:32:59.440 --> 00:33:01.680
She's like, Oh, I have a big announcement in the next week.
00:33:01.759 --> 00:33:05.759
So anyway, she became an agent and then I ended up submitting to her and signed with her.
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:11.920
Um and then she left, she left Bookends, and then I just stayed with Bookends and went to James McGowan.
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:16.240
And that's how um, but yeah, that was back in 2017.
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:33.279
So after querying a solid seven or eight years, taking some breaks, realizing I needed to re probably start some, you know, once some stories didn't get any traction, then it's like I probably need to write new stories and things like that.
00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:35.599
But um, it was a long journey.
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.960
I feel that I've been querying for I think it'll be seven years this year.
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:39.279
Yeah.
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:41.759
I think we can both relate to that more than love.
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:42.480
Yeah.
00:33:42.720 --> 00:34:02.000
Well, and and and truthfully, most writers I know, well, I would say at least 50% of the writers I know, um, it's probably right around that seven to ten year mark before their first, and this is picture books, um, their first picture book comes out.
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:08.719
So uh it is normal, it is normal to be querying for many, many, many years.
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:20.000
Yeah, we've heard so many different journeys, you know, now that we've been doing the podcast, and that's been my favorite part of this is that everyone, everyone has their own unique journey.
00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:26.000
And you know, it it's just so this industry is so crazy.
00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:28.159
It is.
00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:30.800
It is it I love it.
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:37.119
It's so much fun, but it is also so hard and so odd.
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:42.400
I feel like everyone has this like like idea of like, oh, once I get an agent, I've made it.
00:34:42.480 --> 00:34:46.960
But I feel like every agent is very different, every deal is very different, every journey is very different.
00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:51.920
Um, I'm curious, what is your guys' relationship with your agent like?
00:34:52.079 --> 00:35:02.719
Not not like uh on a super personal level, but um, could you talk a little bit about like how you communicate with your respective agents, what communication turnaround time looks like, like sort of the vibe?
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:10.960
Um, I guess just to show like to kind of normalize how different they are and to give people an idea of what they should expect when they have an agent that they like that is doing their job well.
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:19.119
To me, I think it's everything is kind of based on really open communication and trying to make sure that you're both on the same page about things.
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:42.159
So Eliza and I connect um pretty regularly, I would say, um, over everything from like new projects, possible new work, um uh contracts, you know, um, if it's just really good to have someone else's eyes on some of these things and someone who has a deep awareness of the industry and what to ask for, I guess.
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:47.119
Um and so yeah, we discussed all of these things pretty frequently.
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:52.159
I I think it's an initiative from both sides, to be honest.
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:58.159
Like it's you you you need to give if you want to get back, I guess, you know.
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:18.320
So just I try to keep things really clear, communication, communication-wise, if there's going to be any anticipated like changes in timelines for projects, um, just keeping each other aware of that so that she's able to go out there and you know ask for more time or you know, maybe negotiate.
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:28.480
Um, so yeah, I I I love that it's really collaborative and it it has been for me in my instance, and I yeah, I'm really appreciative of that.
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:32.480
When you say you talk frequently, do you mean like once a week, once a month?
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:34.079
Like what is frequent for you?
00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:34.719
Right.
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:37.119
I think um it depends on the project, to be honest.
00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:44.559
Like some projects, you know, are just really smooth sailing and there's really no hiccups, and then some might might need a quick chat.
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:47.760
So it could just be a spontaneous, like, hey, are you available?
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:51.440
Or, you know, something that we're just communicating over Slack or something like that.
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:56.960
So um it could be once a week, but sometimes it could just be maybe once a month.
00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:58.079
Um, yeah.
00:36:58.239 --> 00:37:11.840
And then we do have like catch-ups just about, you know, where my work is at, or like when I'm feeling like, okay, maybe we need to relook at the cat page and put up some of the new pieces, or she might be like, let's update your portfolio and let's put in some of the newer stuff.
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:16.079
Um, so yeah, I think it's it's it's a really good flow.
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:28.480
I guess it's not as structured in the sense that I'm not planning it in my calendar, but I know that I can reach out to her at any point of time and that she's gonna be available to yeah, discuss things.
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:30.880
That's actually pretty similar for me too.
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:42.239
Um I know that if I have a question, uh, we generally communicate through email, unless there's something we need to talk through or forget an offer, then then that that becomes a phone call.
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:52.800
But generally speaking, it's if I have a question, um, I have I'm co-agented with Sophie Shoemaker, who spells her name a little bit differently than mine, so we are not related, and James McGowan.
00:37:53.280 --> 00:38:02.159
Um and if if I have a question, I email it both of them, one of them, depending upon who gets to it first.
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:06.880
Um, but within 24 hours, I usually have a comment.
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:11.360
Um, if it's a specific question, or if it's like, here's a manuscript, I'd love some feedback on.
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:13.679
It's like, okay, great, you know, we'll put it in our queue.
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:18.960
I mean, it's it they always acknowledge my email very quickly, which is wonderful.
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:29.599
Um I always schedule a call at the beginning of the year, um, just to kind of like talk about like where my brain is at, what I'm thinking, and things like that.
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:42.960
Um, if I ever feel the need to call, um, you know, I'll email them and it's great we do it, but uh it's not we don't have like once a month we chat or you know by email or anything like that.
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:46.880
It's just it's kind of like whatever's going on, whatever we need.
00:38:47.119 --> 00:38:58.960
Um so yeah, it's it's it's when when we need it, we will communicate, but it's not like um very regular, I guess.
00:38:59.039 --> 00:38:59.920
It's it's not a schedule.
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:02.400
You're not sending each other memes or anything throughout the day.
00:39:02.719 --> 00:39:03.440
No, no.
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:07.920
And you know, and and it's I I think there are some people who have agents like that.
00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:14.320
Um I think that there's several clients that do that with James and Sophie, but I it's just not my style.
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:18.719
I mean, I'm just like I work, I'm very independent, all that stuff.
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:22.079
So I think that um it it's working great for us.
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:25.440
So um, you know, it works.
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:26.000
It works.
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:29.679
I I don't need them as a friend if that means anything.
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:30.880
You know what I'm saying?
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:38.159
Um gosh, with as many people as agents represent, I could imagine it would be very hard for to find any agent that's gonna act like that.
00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:39.360
Right, right.
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:50.000
So um, but I'm very and again, I am not a um lawyerly type person and a numbers person.
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:57.599
These royalty statements, this is I've got four three different publishers now and seem to be four.
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:02.320
You would think royalty statements would be similar.
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:08.480
Each one, I I it's it's a completely different language to me.
00:40:08.559 --> 00:40:11.920
I just I open it up and then I'll be like, okay.
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:14.239
I do have a couple questions, you know.
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:15.360
So it's just funny.
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:22.880
I'm so glad to have an agent or agents who deal with that stuff because it's not where my brain goes.
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:28.159
Um and I'm also a very introvert and I don't like conflict.
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:39.360
So if if there's something that I love the fact that I have an agent, if I need them to address something with an editor, that they will do that.
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:43.199
Um because that's not my strong point.
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:50.800
So it is great to have that person um as a partner on my side, um, looking out for my interests.
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.320
And I am so grateful that agents do that.
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:57.199
I'm glad you guys both found agents that really work for you.
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:03.119
Um I'm curious, when you had your agent call, are there things that you wish you had asked?
00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:09.280
And what are some things that you would recommend someone listening asking if they were to get an agent call?
00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:14.800
Um, Deborah, do you want should I okay, I'll take this one first.
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:17.440
Um for me it was really spontaneous.
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:23.679
So I I I don't think I I don't think it landed uh with me that it was like an agent call.
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:27.199
So I went in really, really relaxed.
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:32.960
Um, I had a bunch of questions, which I thought um I was really curious about.
00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:42.639
And Eliza and I both had talked about, she said, you know, ask me anything, like be really transparent about everything that you have on your mind about what you expect out of representation.
00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:50.559
And um so yeah, I think for me personally, I love working on projects that I deeply connect with.
00:41:50.800 --> 00:42:03.840
And so um I'd love to be able to have a quick look if the publisher is happy to share, if the author is happy to share as well, like an initial manuscript or whatever's available when I am being considered for a project.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:11.199
Um, and if I connect with it, I'm I know that okay, I'm gonna be really sold on this, I'm gonna really want to work on this.
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:16.719
And so being on the same page about projects that come your way with your agent, I think is really important.
00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:21.679
Um, so that's something that I would really recommend to illustrators looking for that.
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:33.840
Like if you know the kind of work that you want to do and you're able to communicate that with your agent, your agent knows how to, you know, filter, I guess, like, you know, what comes your way and what to say no to, I guess.
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:40.320
Um, and then second to that, I would probably say transparency about budgets and what your worth is.
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:47.679
Um, like some that's something that I struggle with, and I know other illustrator friends have also struggled with in the past, especially now.
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:51.599
I feel like there's a lot more conversation happening about budgets and you know, things like that.
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:55.360
But um, when I first started, it wasn't it wasn't like that.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:59.519
So it was a bit more vague, I guess, or much more varied.
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:19.679
And so having an idea or and someone who who knows perhaps what picture books are receiving and has a has a has an idea of the range that um uh works for a picture book, but also what your worth, like your work's worth might be, um, to give you a better idea of like where you stand with that.
00:43:19.760 --> 00:43:26.719
I think being open about that and knowing that the person's on your team, that's a that's a good thing to discuss with your agent as well.
00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:28.159
Yeah, on that agent call.
00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:28.800
Yeah.
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:30.079
It's a great answer.
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:39.360
For me, um, you know, communication style, um, frequency of communication, um, you know, uh, those are definitely questions to ask.
00:43:39.519 --> 00:43:46.719
And um, I've always asked for uh if I can reach out to some of their clients just to find out.
00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:49.440
So I think that's always very important to ask.
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:55.599
Um it was so long ago that I was querying.
00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:57.280
I don't really remember.
00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:13.039
Um, if they are a newer agent, um Uh I think it's very important to know if they're at an agency with some experienced agents because I do think that there's a lot of people who want to put out their hat and call themselves agents.
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:24.400
But if they've never agented before, um, if they're not, if they're trying to do it solo, I think don't think they'll have the context.
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:38.000
So I do think an agency with a record of sales um is very important, or if it's a new agent that, you know, have they agented at a different agency?
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:41.679
I think the experience and the context are very important.
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:52.079
So um just to be wary of new agents if they're not at an agency where they might be getting mentored.
00:44:52.639 --> 00:44:53.360
That's a good tip.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:45:01.519
I'm just curious if like if you guys would work together again, how often do you work with the same like illustrator or author?
00:45:01.599 --> 00:45:03.119
Or do you just is this it?
00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:06.079
Is like this your project and then you go your separate ways.
00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:08.320
How does that how does that work?
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:10.559
Does it depend on how the book does?
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:16.639
Just gonna put this out into the universe that I would love to work with Deborah again if there's anyone listening.
00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:20.880
Yes, I I have visions for more Josie's stories.
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:22.000
So we will see.
00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:22.800
I'm here for it.
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:23.039
Yeah.
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:26.000
Again, a lot of it relies on how the book sells.
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:35.280
Um uh Freaky Funky Fish and Peculiar Primates are companion books with um with Running Press Kids, my first publisher.
00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:41.119
So um, those are two books that I worked with the same illustrator because they they are meant to be companions.
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:53.760
So I was grateful that Claire Powell did both of those books because, you know, again, the illustrators, the illustrations make our these books so much of what they are.
00:45:54.079 --> 00:46:03.039
So um I would absolutely if love, um, if I can come up with a good storyline for Josie, I would really hope that love would agree to.
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:05.199
Absolutely.
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:06.880
Oh my goodness, I would be honored.
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:08.639
I'd love to be considered for it.
00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:10.800
I would just love, I'm just gonna put it out there again.
00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:12.639
Like, you know, if anyone's listening, yeah.
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:13.280
Right.
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:13.760
Yes.
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:16.400
Um, no, her work is amazing.
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:22.400
I um it's fun to see a character come to life.
00:46:23.280 --> 00:46:24.639
It's really, really fun.
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:26.800
It's really fun to see words come to life.
00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:32.320
Um, I have been so amazed um with all of my books.
00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:35.199
Um, you know, I wrote a book about the wind.
00:46:35.679 --> 00:46:41.599
And how an illustrator takes those words and makes something physical out of it.
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:49.360
It's just it is the most amazing experience to get that email from your editor.
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:51.119
Do you want to see some first sketches?
00:46:51.199 --> 00:46:52.400
I'm like, yes.
00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:56.960
And um it it's such a fun process.
00:46:57.119 --> 00:47:00.719
It's a frustrating industry, but it is a fun, fun.
00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:04.159
Um frustrating is the wrong word.
00:47:04.239 --> 00:47:08.719
It's it's a interesting publishing is interesting.
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:19.760
Um, but I can say the highlights uh is getting that contract or the offer, and then the when you get that email from your editor, we have her sketches.
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:26.559
And then seeing the black and white come to color, it it's just I can't say how fun it is.
00:47:26.719 --> 00:47:28.800
It's just the most fun I've ever had.
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:30.719
So love.
00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:32.320
Thank you so much.
00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:37.039
Josie is adorable, she's adorable.
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:40.639
So can I just share where this Josie name came from?
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:41.519
Yes, please.
00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:43.199
I've never written fiction.
00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:48.000
Well, I started writing fiction, and I'm like, oh, now I have I get to come up with a character name.
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:54.559
So um I have three sons, and we've never found out with any of our boys if what the gender was.
00:47:54.880 --> 00:48:00.480
So um, when we were pregnant with our third, and I had a dream when I was pregnant with our first that we had two boys and a girl.
00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:04.159
So I was convinced our third child was going to be a girl.
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:08.480
And so my husband and I couldn't agree on boy names, and like it doesn't matter.
00:48:08.559 --> 00:48:15.760
And we were gonna, um, Margaret was gonna be the name until about two weeks before um our third child was due.
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:18.320
And my husband came home and he's like, you know what?
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:20.719
I think it'd be fun to have a little Josie.
00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:23.360
Um, little Josephine, call her Josie.
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:32.559
And I'm like, and I love the name because Joseph was the name that my parents were gonna name their first boy, and they never had a boy.
00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:35.920
So I'm like, oh gosh, Josephine, Josie would be so cute.
00:48:36.079 --> 00:48:39.199
And then our third child was a boy, so we never used it.
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:43.599
So now I'm using all these names when I read whenever I write kitchen.
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:45.440
I'm like, hmm, what name can I come up with?
00:48:45.519 --> 00:48:47.679
It was fun to make up a name, and that's what Josie.
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:51.199
Josie was going to be the girl that I never had.
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:52.719
So gosh.
00:48:56.559 --> 00:48:58.639
Yeah, so there's Josie.
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:03.519
So she was gonna be the daughter that I never had, but I love my son, Chateau.
00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:05.199
I love that.
00:49:05.519 --> 00:49:12.559
I love this so meaningful too that you got to, you know, bring something in and the love got to like bring her to life.
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:15.440
It's such a magical process in so many ways.
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:16.639
Just it it is.
00:49:17.039 --> 00:49:18.159
Magic is the right word.
00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:31.039
It is just magical um to see something that I've I always write my first draft in handwriting and type it up, but you know, just something that's black and white to become, you know, this.
00:49:31.119 --> 00:49:32.159
It's just, I don't know.
00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:33.199
It is magic.
00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:34.639
Magic is the right word.
00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:36.000
It's for anyone listening.
00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:39.199
She's holding up the beautiful cover that is about to come out.
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:47.920
Um, before we let you go, could we get you to pitch the book to anyone looking for a gorgeous illustrated uh picture book sometime in August?
00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:48.480
Sure.
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:51.840
This is a per Sunday Scaries is a perfect book for back to school.
00:49:52.000 --> 00:50:01.519
And for all of those kids who have that touch of anxiety that I think many of us face, um, Josie and her parents also experience Sunday Scaries.
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:11.360
And uh the book is about how the family turns the Sunday scaries around and Monday isn't quite as bad as it used to be.
00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:12.480
Amazing.
00:50:12.719 --> 00:50:14.559
I am putting oh go ahead.
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:19.440
I'm definitely gonna pick it up for my five-year-old who's gonna enter kindergarten this fall.
00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:22.800
This seems perfect for yeah, something to help her.
00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:27.599
Yeah, and there is back there, there are tips in the back matter.
00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:33.599
Um, I worked with a school counselor, I'm not a counselor, but you know, I just wanted something helpful.
00:50:33.760 --> 00:50:39.360
Um, when I had them when I was a child, um we didn't talk about our feelings.
00:50:39.440 --> 00:50:44.480
I don't know if that was my family or it's just back then in the 70s and early 80s.
00:50:44.559 --> 00:50:45.199
I I don't know.
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:47.840
I just felt like you bottled up your feelings.
00:50:48.000 --> 00:50:56.639
So I just really wanted to let families know that they're not alone when their kid is going through this.
00:50:56.880 --> 00:51:01.440
Um, because I know there's many, many kids who go through this.
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:09.039
And um so I it's a sweet book, it's humorous, but I think it's also going to be helpful.
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:10.239
Yeah, definitely.
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:16.880
I will put that link in the show notes for anyone interested in pre-ordering or uh ordering, depending on when you listen to this.
00:51:17.039 --> 00:51:19.679
And yeah, thank you so much, Deborah and Lau for being here.
00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:21.199
It was so nice to meet you both.
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:23.199
I can't wait for your book to come out.
00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:23.920
Thank you.
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:26.000
Thank you so much for having us.
00:51:26.719 --> 00:51:28.400
This was this was a lot of fun.
00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:29.199
Bye.
