Evacuation or Occupation? Rethinking the End Times.

Wade: I think it's put the people of God, the Church in a position so that basically we're looking for evacuation rather than occupation. W we're We're trying to get off the earth When God wants to get on the earth through us.
Kent Holdeman: Alex actually came up with the idea and this might be a a little bit of a controversial topic to some people. I don't know. I d I really don't know what people think of this. But I I was doing some stud I was doing some studying on what so I I think it for some people it kind of rides the line between a secondary issue and a tertiary issue. Like none of us would say that this is a salvation issue. but I think it really does matter. Like it it changes how we look at life, how we believe about this. So I I guess I should say what w the subject actually is. So what we what we're talking about is dispensationalism versus the covenant theology. And I think for for us here, it would probably land in the secondary issues, like maybe not salvation issue, but we would probably decide which church we were going to based on what was believed here. Like, unless there just wasn't many options. Not to say that somebody who believes differently on this is you know just way off in left field, but I do believe what I've learned in the last few years about covenant theology, it has brought a freedom to my life, and I love the
Frank Koehn: Okay.
Kent Holdeman: way I feel like it lines up with the gospel. So I'm really anxious to hear what Wade has to say this evening. I know Alex, you were gonna. Save a couple of things there yet too, right?
Alex Becker: Yeah, I'd love to say just something real quick. You know, spending thirty years of my life in a you know, religiously dead system. not really understanding the vibrancy and the beauty of what Christ come to do when he established his kingdom, you know, here on earth. And then and then being introduced to, you know, leaving leaving that system and being introduced to all the different forms of eschatology, I feel like I kind of made the loop, you know, for a period of time I thought, well, this particular you know, version of eschatology might be correct. And then it kind of depended on who you who you listen to, who your teachers are, kind of on where you land on some of these issues, right? What church you go to, who the who the who the teachers are in your life, because face it, there's a lot of godly men in the in the church history
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Alex Becker: that have disagreed on these topics, right? And so it's kind of one of those things that, you know, we all have a an opinion on. But I really I really was so excited
Wade: Mm.
Alex Becker: when Wade started teaching me about eschatology and I realized the the proper view I feel like for the believer needs to be a view that gives us hope, not a view that like sparks fear or worry or confusion, but you know, a view where Christ ultimately is magnified and glorified in our view in our esc eschatology I can't anyways, our view of eschatology and then one that really is one in line in alignment with the kingdom of God when Jesus in his model prayer says to pray thus thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as in heaven. And then, you know, I
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Alex Becker: can't wait for Wade to share his testimony tonight. And I'd love for you, Wade, to, you know, go way back. How what was your first when you first like become a Christian, you know, how was you trained? What was your view on eschatology? And then How did that develop over the years? Cause there's some your story was fascinating to me, as you shared it often with me. And I just I would love for our viewers to listen to how your view has changed over the, you know, past fifty some years of ministry, in teaching on this topic, right?
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: Sure, I be before embarking on my pilgrimage, I I wanna take a little exception to what Kent just said. I I think I think it's more than a secondary issue. That
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Wade: doesn't mean that we break fellowship over it, but I think the implications of what you believe about the future are almost immeasurable as far as what the purpose of
Kent Holdeman: What is it
Wade: the people of God is for this for their time here on earth. And so
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: I I th I think it really I I think it's put the people of God, the Church in a position so that basically we're looking for evacuation rather than occupation. W we're We're trying to get off the earth When God wants to get on the earth through us. I I Dennis Peacock said that he was out jogging one time and the Lord spoke to him and said, "Dennis, you and I have opposite goals". Of course he's just speaking, he didn't he wasn't talking to an audible voice, it's in his spirit. And he said, "Well, Lord, how how is that? I want to get in line with with with you. And he said, "Well, your goal right now is to get off the earth as quick as you can. And my goal is to get on the earth but through through the redeemed people of God." So as long as our our view basically is that that the world is a sinking Titanic and we can't hope to have any impact on it other than to get a lifeboat and get as many in that lifeboat headed for heaven as we can. So I think it makes a world an incredible difference in the in the furtherance of the kingdom of God, of the gospel. and of the impact that God intends to have. And in fact, I think He's going to bury the group for as a whole. eventually they not many many of them seem to be wanting to change their eschatology. So he'll let them go on and die and raise up a generation that will will take serious the assignment to go to the ends of the earth until the end of time and extend the gospel into all dimensions of life. and not just have a salvific view of everything that's our a assignment that is to go to heaven when we die. So anyway, that's that's th that that's my correction of Kent there, so
Kent Holdeman: thank you so much, Wade. I actually agree
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: with that. I I I I want to be careful
Wade: Yeah, I thought you would. I just wanted to I wanted you
Alex Becker: Mm.
Kent Holdeman: to to not you know, I d I've I talk with people who don't agree with me on this. And, you know, I'm not
Wade: Well you I'm go I'm gonna give you thirty five years of history and and not only do people not agree, people get really upset and and leave. I probably
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: as a as a pastor, I probably had more people get upset with me and challenge me and many people leave the church because of my eschatological views. So so You know, one w w when I became a Christian when God benevolently ambushed me on October the third, nineteen sixty-six, in a little Baptist preacher's home in Middle Tennessee, the the vision of the church, the little missionary baptist church that I I I grew up in and and got baptized and became a member of, their view was, okay, you're saved. And I ask what's next, and they said, Next next thing is you go to heaven. So you you come and you sit here and you listen to the preacher and you listen to the Sunday school teacher and you read your Bible and pray and give some money and eventually you might grow enough to become a Sunday school teacher or even a deacon. But in the meantime there's nothing else to do, just hold on and hang out, and eventually you're gonna die and go to heaven. And that was I I mean, I'm
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: not exaggerating that. That's just the basic view. There
Alex Becker: Ha ha
Wade: wasn't Follow up, there wasn't any discipleship. That's it. You got it. And so the only thing the
Alex Becker: Mm.
Wade: only counsel I got was the first thing you need to do is get you a good Bible and the best Bible available according to the pastor, was the Schofield Reference Bible. So I followed his advice. I got me a Schofield Reference Bible. In fact, I still got it. And Look look at the it's duct taped together now. It it was excuse me. Wasn't the best most expensive
Frank Koehn: Okay.
Wade: Bible. I couldn't afford one. But I had this one probably nineteen sixty eight or something like that. And and what makes the Schofield Bible what makes people think it's the best around is not because it's a Bible, but because it's a commentary. It's not I mean it's King James Version, you can get all kind of different versions now i i w with in the schofield reference bible but what what made it so important and imperative to get one was his commentary on the bible it has the footnotes. So I got one, began to read it and and and study the footnotes. And the first thing you know I am a self proclaimed expert in Bible prophecy. Such an expert that in fact
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Wade: When God called me to preach, the first summer I preached in August of nineteen sixty nine, I preached on the second coming of Christ. Of course I used the Schofield notes. I didn't know anything beyond that.
Frank Koehn: You jumped in the deep end.
Wade: jumped in the deep end, but here's the amazing thing and and the the the embarrassing thing i i exhausted the entire eschatological concept of the second coming in 15 minutes it was done i i finished i just over i just basically read the notes i mean what else you gonna do but i made a commitment i said never again will i run out of something to say and everybody that knows me will tell tell you that I've lived up to that promise. So anyway, so
Alex Becker: Yeah. That's true.
Wade: then in in November, November fourteenth, nineteen seventy-one I got ordained to the gospel ministry and they said, What kind of Bible do you want? I said, I want a school fill. I want a good school fill. This is in the day this was top of the line, the most expensive one you can buy. And so that was given to me November the fourteenth, nineteen seventy one. This November will be fifty five years in full time vocational gospel ministry. So I still got it. Present company included. So anyway. So that that was the beginning of my my eschatological instructions and
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Wade: teachings, self-taught, autodidactic. So anyway, I I I I embraced that wholeheartedly, and then when I got to the place where I could afford to buy some books, I started buying everything I could get my hands on as far as Bible prophecy was concerned. It was all from a Schofield dispensational perspective. And I had I had probably a hundred books
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, okay.
Wade: different subjects related to the second coming, probably fifty books on Revelation,
Kent Holdeman: fifty new
Wade: and all that. And then in nineteen about nineteen eighty four, eighty five, I was preaching to Grace Baptist Baptist in those days, Grace Baptist Fellowship on Sunday evening through the book of Revelation. And when I got to chapter 13, I can show you the notes. I got them. Hand handwritten notes. When I got to chapter 13, I concluded, just the Lord in me. I said, Lord, whatever the interpretation of this book is, what I'm what I'm preaching can't be it. Because number one, I'm as confused as a termite in a yo-yo. And secondly, these people, these people are ready to commit Harry Carry. They're ready to jump off. Th th there's no hope for Th all they can see is doom and gloom. It's just, you know, it's gonna go from bad to worse. The quicker the sinner fries, the quicker we fly. And and our our h our our hymn for the church was I'll fly away. Just a few more weary just a few more weary days and then I'll fly away.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: My question is who in heaven That's if you're young but want to join some organization that's trying to go out of business all the time and and and singing I'll fly away just a few more weary days. I I mean a weary day, not a good day, just a few more weary days. So I said then that night, I didn't tell the well I did tell the pay, I just said, Look, whatever the interpretation of this book is, this can't be right. And it was down the line typical dispensational position. And I said, I'm never going to preach on it again until I have a better understanding. And and I I've taught it since then, but it took me about it took me about fifteen years to come to what I believe a is a i is is a correct position, at least it's correct for me. Is it's a position where basically I'm not going to change anymore. I already changed too many times.
Kent Holdeman: Probably put out that one thing but you can
Wade: And I'm not going to change again. I don't know it all. But I know enough to be comfortable in the position I have and in the interpretation I have of biblical prophecy and of the book of Revelation. So that again, I've been doing all the talking to get you up to the up to the point that I am, so you're free to question, interject, do whatever.
Alex Becker: One thing I think would be helpful, Wade, is if you could give a quick overview of maybe the mainstream views of of eschatology. Could you just give us kind of a quick over a quick running overview of the different ones? Yeah.
Wade: Yeah. Yeah, very quickly because I don't want to take all the time, but but of course the first thing you need to do is define the meaning of the word we're using. May maybe people are watching that n are not sure. Escatos means last and the other part of the word means a study of last things. So that includes
Kent Holdeman: Thanks, Luke.
Wade: death and resurrection and judgment and the second coming and
Kent Holdeman: I can tell.
Wade: new heaven. It includes all that relates to last things.
Kent Holdeman: I have to
Wade: All right, so in in that position, there are three major positions, and then one was added in the eighteen thirties that became
Kent Holdeman: What do you think?
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: really popular with a in England, Plymouth, England, by a guy named John Nelson Darby. Then was eventually brought to the US and became widespread through the publication of the Scoville Reference Bible in nineteen nine.
Kent Holdeman: I got a thing to build Darby. I think you know still ever spotted
Wade: So it's been around for a while. But it's relatively new kid on the ball. But but before dispensational
Kent Holdeman: Okay.
Wade: premillennialism, there was a premillennial view. And notice all these views relate to the word millennium. And that's interesting because it's only used in Revelation twenty about the millennium. That's
Kent Holdeman: video.
Wade: millennium mean Latin for a thousand, it's a thousand year reign. So premillennialism basically called itself historic premillennialism. And that is the belief that there's going to be at the end of history, there's going to be a thousand year reign of Christ where everything is is is good, pretty good. Not perfect, but pretty good. And then I'll come back to the dispensational aspect. But then there's a an omillenal position, which basically
Kent Holdeman: Well thank you.
Wade: excuse me, which basically says that the millennium is spiritual and it elevates everything to kind of a spiritual level.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. Yeah.
Wade: And a lot of good people that I know, a lot of good books that I have are are all millennialists. But they basically
Kent Holdeman: I like
Wade: I I don't mean this to be unkind. They're they're just dispensational pre millennialists without any h earthly hope. At least the at least the premillennialist has an earthly hope of a good period of time. The Omillenist says, No, it's all it's all this and it's gonna get worse and eventually his Jesus will come back and that'll be the end of history.
Kent Holdeman: Right.
Wade: So premillennialism, millennialism, and then post millennialism.
Kent Holdeman: Okay.
Wade: of course, meaning no millennial, and post meaning after the millennium. That's the belief that there's going to be such success for the gospel, not not some kind of liberal human humanistic approach where people just trained and taught and they get better and better just get better. No, it's the fact that the gospel is the power of God into salvation and it's stronger than the devil's lie and it wins in history. And so both odd millennial odd millennialism and post millennialism believe that
Kent Holdeman: yeah.
Wade: we're in the millennium now. And that there's going to be a continuing unfolding
Kent Holdeman: Okay.
Wade: of that in a victorious way. Not so everybody's a Christian, but so the majority of the world espouses a Christian view. And then in eighteen thirty there was interjected this dispensational view. Now let me just quickly say about the dispensational view. It simply it simply says there's seven dispensations in history. And a dispensation is is a period in which God does certain things, a period of testing or a period in which he works out certain details. And and first period is innocent the innocent in innocent period, innocent. I have hard time with that. Second is conscience. The third is human government.
Kent Holdeman: And that's on the
Wade: The fourth is promise. The fifth is law. And then the sixth one is grace, which is what we are supposed to be living under now. And then
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: the seventh one will be the kingdom dispensation. And that'll be at the second coming. Because
Kent Holdeman: Second coming.
Wade: you see the dispensationalist believes That there was a a a prophetic clock that stopped when Jesus died on the cross and rose and went to heaven. And the church age, which was not anticipated in the Old Testament, comes in. This is the age of grace, and and it goes on until the rapture of the church. And when the church is taken up, there's a seven year period in which God resumes dealing with the people of Israel. There's a temple already in place and during this period there's a person that on the scene called the Antichrist. He makes a covenant with the nation of
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Wade: Israel, a covenant of peace. He breaks it off in in the middle of that seven year period, puts himself up as the ultimate authority in the temple himself, begins to persecute the Jews. Actually they don't like to talk about it, but they believe that two thirds of the Jews will die during that period. And then finally there's a battle of Armageddon. Jesus comes back and slices and dices and and then enters into the enters into the temple and sits himself down where he reigns there sitting on the temple, on the throne in the temple for a thousand years and the Jews rule the world.
Kent Holdeman: Well yeah I'll get a couple for a file to
Wade: And even that doesn't turn out, so at the end of the thousand years the devil is loose, there's a rebellion, and Jesus comes back and
Kent Holdeman: Okay.
Wade: deals with the devil at the battle of Gog and Magog resurrection of the wicked, they're cast into hell.
Kent Holdeman: I draw up. Yeah.
Wade: That's dispensationalism. Boy, it became really, really popular. I mean, it's so popular that if you don't believe that, you're considered pretty much a a heretic. So Tim LaHay wrote
Kent Holdeman: No, I I do consider pretty much button. Okay, but
Wade: a a a book. Actually he didn't write it. Jerry Jenkins did wrote a series of books called Left Behind. They made movies and all that. And and here's I'm gonna show you, I got it out of his book called Charting
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, I have all
Wade: the End Times. I I took this out. You can see here's a here's the dispensational view. It's got all
Kent Holdeman: wow.
Wade: of these Yeah. So you if you can master that, I mean I've seen I've seen pastors have this blown up. They have it it's twenty feet tall behind the pulpit. And they they you know you sound like an expert.
Kent Holdeman: Yep.
Wade: And and and that's it. But the bottom line, here's the bottom line. Here's what really upsets me. The bottom line is the church fails. The church is a failure in history. It winds up apostate, it winds up lukewarm, it winds up with just a handful of remnant. And and so God comes and and rescues them before they're totally apostate. And then he gets back online with his main program, which is with the Jews. So you got two covenants still operative, you got two people, you got two ways of dealing with those people. And so that and again, that used to be my position. And if you disagreed with me, then probably you were a last day scoffer, mocking, you were anti Semitic, and all those things that I've been called. You're a super secessionist and a replacement theologian, to which
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: I lead. Gladly, guilty, whatever you want to call me, I I'm I'm okay with where I am. So that's a that's a quick overview of systematic theology, the doctrine of eschatology in in a few minutes.
Kent Holdeman: Well, I really I enjoyed that. I I think we're planning to do a lot of listening tonight, Wade, 'cause I I really I I also want to hear, you know, where you've come to and why. I think that would be really interesting. But
Wade: Okay.
Kent Holdeman: that that
Alex Becker: And also.
Kent Holdeman: yeah, go ahead, Alex.
Alex Becker: Well and and I think the main thing for me tonight, I I want all of our listeners to hear in light of the gospel, in light of the good news that Christ in in
Kent Holdeman: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: light of the good news that Jesus came and and gives us like how because man, when you're talking about dispensationalism, there's no good news to that. That sounds that that that sounds pretty terrifying. You know, and I know people like you said that have believed that hookline and sinker, they're ready to sell all they have, move to the heels and just, you know, survive the survive the the apocalypse 'cause doom and gloom and all these terrible things are coming. So
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Alex Becker: in the light of of us being representatives of our king and living life in the kingdom, I I wanna h hear how that specifically has shaped your view of where you are today.
Frank Koehn: Yep.
Alex Becker: 'Cause I
Kent Holdeman: Thanks.
Alex Becker: believe it has, right Way?
Wade: yeah, shape my view. Actually actually what happened to really cause me, besides my preaching through Revelation, a y a young man came along and challenged me. Not too many
Kent Holdeman: Okay.
Wade: people challenge me, but if you challenge me right and with the right attitude, you we we'll do fine.
Kent Holdeman: Thanks.
Wade: but if you come at me with sword drawn, it's gonna be a bloodbath before it's over. So but he n he knew better.
Kent Holdeman: That's okay.
Wade: He was he was his occupation was in sales so he knew how to make a sale. So so he approached me the right way. And and he just came in and and and said, I want to ask you a just a couple of questions. And boy, they sent me reeling back on my heels. I had to I had to rethink the whole start rethinking the whole thing. Number one, can can you be saved in any period And not be chosen in Christ and once you're saved, can you be saved and not be in Christ? No th that that kind of w when you put that in res in in alongside dispensationalism,
Kent Holdeman: Okay so.
Wade: where you got two peoples,
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: you got the you got two distinct people. That's the one thing you've got to maintain as a dispensational premillennialist. You've got to have Israel,
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: which is the apple of God's eye, and then you gotta have this parenthesis called the church, which is kind of like plan B. But but you've got to maintain that distinction. So the question is,
Kent Holdeman: Right. Okay.
Wade: was a Jew in the Old Testament, a citizen of Israel, ever saved based on race or has salvation always been based on grace? And then secondly, not only based on grace, but based on the fact that every saved person was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. So you go all the way back to whomever the first person was that was saved. Well, I hope it was Adam. But if he was saved, it was saved he was saved because he was chosen in Christ. So ultimately, there's only one body, there's only one church, there's only one people. And and and to to me, I mean that that that just blew my dispensationalism out of the water because the emphasis on hey, there's two people. And basically the primary emphasis, the major stress
Kent Holdeman: Hey.
Wade: is on Israel. Everything is Israel. Hey, y e ev I I've known people they didn't know enough theology, y they could th they couldn't fill out a a paste it note with the amount of theology they knew. I mean they didn't know any but they but they they remembered this. Hey, you can't mess with them Jews, boy. Those the the them Jews I'm I'm using bad grammar, but that's Tennessee grammar. Them Jews got a special standing with God. Based on what? Based on race. They've never had a special standing based on race. Because they they they've never been just one unified people. There's always been a people who are who are with them that are that are not Jews. In fact,
Alex Becker: Okay.
Wade: you we know from the New Testament That it was never ethnicity to begin with.
Alex Becker: Right.
Wade: That's what we're dealing with in Romans. So th th that's the that's the big issue. That's the ultimate issue is what what is the position, what is the place of Israel. Because when you depart from this position, what you're accused of is robbing Israel. Robbing them of what? A little strip of land in the Mid East? Robbing them of thinking that one day they're gonna rule the world? Listen. There's only one Jew that's gonna rule the world, and he's ruling the world now, and his name is Jesus.
Alex Becker: Amen. Yeah.
Wade: He's the ultimate truth of God. So what
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, that's right. Mm-hmm.
Wade: you gotta see is that that that the Bible is not about Jews. It's written by Jews, all of it except two books, Acts and Luke. But it's not about Jews. Jews had a particular role to fulfill, and that is to bring the Messiah into space time history. And they did exactly that. They brought the Messiah
Alex Becker: Okay.
Wade: in. And and so in doing that then, he is the true Israelite. He put an end to all the sacrifices. There'll never be another temple built. There may be one built, but God won't put his imprimator upon it. Jesus will never sit on another earthly throne. He'll never go into another box. God is not going to get into another box.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm. Amen.
Wade: Hear me close. We are not going to make a a redemptive U turn. That's what let me let me give you the summation of dispensationalism. It's the
Alex Becker: Okay.
Wade: restoration of the Mosaic law, Mosaic Restorationism. It's a we go along in this new covenant reality, and suddenly Jesus comes and snatches the church out of the way and he gets back online and then we go back. Go back to what? Go back to temple. Go back to priests, go back to sacrifices. Well they said the sacrifices are only memorials. Nonsense. Read Ezekiel, read read those prophecies and this sin offerings and all that. There's never going to be another lamb die that God accepts. There's never He's he He's made the old covenant. Listen, according to Hebrews eight,
Kent Holdeman: That's acrobatic.
Wade: he's made the old covenant obsolete. That then Jews don't get cheated. Instead of getting a little parcel of lamb, they get the whole world. That's what we got. And they didn't g
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: and and again, you you there's so many things that that I could talk about, but so let me let you guys talk. And let me get a dream.
Frank Koehn: So Pastor Wade, there there's several things on my mind. So first of all,
Wade: Go ahead.
Frank Koehn: you're you I don't know you very well, but you appear to me like you're somewhat opinionated, perhaps. And I'm intrigued by the fact that that this this pastor who had it all figured out suddenly changed his mind. I I r I really I'm intrigued by that and I admire it. And I wanna know why Why that happened? Where did that humility come from to admit that you were wrong on on something?
Wade: Well I'd already come to the conclusion that Like I said, trying to preach through Revelation.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: Whatever whatever deprives you of
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: hope, no I mean not hope to escape, but genuine hope here and now and the and the confidence in the gospel that the gospel really is the power of God to salv unto salvation and and the truth of God, the gospel of God is stronger than the lie of the devil. That's the main thing that I'd already thinking along those lines. I was thinking in terms of my mentor was a
Kent Holdeman: And that's what you're doing.
Wade: An adjunct professor at a at a Southern Baptist Bible College, Southern Baptist College in Nashville, Tennessee. He had twelve years of training beyond high school. And and I was making plans to go to university. I was gonna go on to seminary. And he said, No, don't do that.
Kent Holdeman: No.
Wade: He said, Number one, I went through all
Kent Holdeman: What?
Wade: that and it took me twelve years to get all that unbelief out of my heart. And in those days there was a lot of liberalism in Southern Baptist schools and Fortunately, praise to God, it's not not that way anymore, at least in the majority of them. But he said
Kent Holdeman: But I'm gonna work.
Wade: it I it took me years to work through all that unbelief. And he said, secondly, you have good reading habits, so you'll you're reading the old Puritans and getting some good theology. And then thirdly, we don't have time. Jesus will come before you finish all of that.
Kent Holdeman: Wow.
Wade: So that that had already happened before before I was challenged on this position. So I was already
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: having some serious reservations. And and another thing that just popped in my mind, Jesus said in in Luke, do business, occupy until I come. That word occupy means do business. And it occurred to me, we're advertising about our business for the kingdom. But we're also advertising we're going out of business any minute. So how can you do business when you're planning on going out of business any minute? So those are the some of the things that had gotten me. And then I I got exposed to to a a group of people who were basically post millennialists, and I began to read those people all the way from Jonathan Edwards on down through church history, and it impacted me tremendously. So that's I along those lines, I had a dear preacher friend, he's with the Lord now, and and he and I used to have lunch together and I'd we'd argue for two hours over this subject. He w he he was kind of a he wouldn't admit it, but he thought he was a kind of an expert on Bible prophecy from a dispensational perspective. And so I was telling him what I'd discovered and my position that I thought I was going to embrace and And after about three or four meetings in which we discussed these things, finally he said to me, Look, those are some very convincing art arguments, very convincing, even based on scripture. But I have written too much on the subject and I have too many sermons out there and I'm too late in my life and I can't afford to change now.
Frank Koehn: He was too invested.
Wade: At least he was honest. But
Frank Koehn: Right. So
Wade: I've always said, Lord, I you know, I'm I'm willing to change. I'm
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: one of my friends Well you done changed horses again in the middle of the stream. But you you know, gr growing le living things grow and growing things change. I mean, I haven't changed on the basics of the faith, but I've changed on some of these things that I think are important. And and so that's basically how how I came to the place where i if I i if you can show me from the scripture and the Holy Spirit confirms that to my heart, then I'm gonna be willing to at least be open to change in and the direction that He's taking me.
Alex Becker: Wait, you said
Frank Koehn: Yeah, I just I think it's admirable for a person to change like that when you have a deeply held belief. It's I mean, all three of us have gone through that. We know that it's not easy. Yes, sir. And I that's why I asked the question is because it's not a small thing. And
Wade: You've changed, all three of you've changed radically. More radically than me.
Frank Koehn: when I started thinking about you, I'm like, well, Wade's not wishy washy. He's opinionated and he had a strongly held belief. And so I was like, I wanna I wanna know why you changed. And the other thing
Wade: Yeah, you're right on all the all the above. I am opinionated. In fact they named they named a highway after me. One way.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. that's I like that. The other thing, this is a small thing, then I'll be finished. But so when when when you were struck with the the inspiration or or God ambushed you or whatever, how did that work with your congregation? Like you were in the middle of a pre preaching a series, I imagine. How how did that work?
Wade: I was preaching through Revelation. I quit. I didn't preach on I didn't preach on eschatology at all. I didn't I didn't
Frank Koehn: You just stop.
Wade: I didn't I didn't preach on it at all. No. I mean I w I usually I I I preached through books and
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: so you know I was preaching through Paul's letters. but I'd I I for s several years I don't know exactly how many, but for several years I never really dealt with anything other than the What you have to believe. I believe in order to be Orthodox, you gotta believe that j i in fact, let me let me just make that statement. I've I've got it written down here. I I think I think in order to be Orthodox, you gotta believe three things that are still future. Number one, the return of Christ. The return of Christ at the end of history. And we can debate it's gonna be before the millennium acts. But it I believe it's gonna be the bottom line is he's going to return. And he's gonna return visibly and bodily in a glorified body. I believe that. I believe that's essential. A lot of people are
Alex Becker: Victoria.
Wade: questioning that today. But secondly, the resurrection of the dead at the end of history, bodily, physical form, despite how difficult that might appear, it's not difficult for God. I don't know. You can again say, well, I was I knew a a a f person, he was on a ship, he fell overboard, he was eaten by Charlie the tuna, he got caught up, Charlie got caught in the net and got processed and w wound up in a thousand cans of tuna. And so how's how's God gonna resurrect John Doe in the ultimate resurrection? Well he's got all that figured out. He he knows
Frank Koehn: Yeah, sorry.
Wade: how to call together the DNA, do whatever. So I believe I believe number one, the return of Christ. Number two, the resurrection of the dead. And number three, the renewal of all creation. After the resurrection, new creation is established, a new heaven and a new earth. And this is the eternal form, the final version of the new heaven and the new earth. There's a sense in which it's now, but there's a not yet to that new heaven and new earth. And I believe those three things are absolutely essential. Now the other things good men, for example, I've got a whole roll books here from a different perspective than the one person I really admire. I I admire more than one person. But I I've got all these books and I'm looking one right in the middle. It's entitled, Come Lord Jesus by John Piper. Well John Piper is is not a disposal. He's a historic premillennialist. And so here's his book in the midst of all these others that are all millennialist and and post millennialist. So again, that doesn't I don't stop reading John Piper because
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: he's a he's a a pre millennius, historic pre millennialist. So anyway, those are the those are the essentials.
Alex Becker: Wade, you said something and you referred to Jonathan Edwards and you said something about post-millennialism and John Edwards. My question to you is when we look at the historic faith, we look at the reformers, we look at the true gospel being preached throughout hundreds of years, not just since eighteen whatever that was, or John you know, John Nelson Darby or or Schofield.
Wade: Eighteen thirty. Yeah.
Alex Becker: but we look at the historic form of eschatology, what what do we see?
Wade: You mean throughout church history? What?
Alex Becker: Throughout church history, is it predominantly a post or a a or a pre millennialist view?
Wade: It it it varied from period to period. You know, s it's true that some of the early early church fathers were were premillenists.
Alex Becker: Like Augustine.
Wade: Augustine was more along the line of an ob millennialist, an optimistic ob millennialist.
Alex Becker: Really?
Wade: There there are those that don't want to embrace postmillenalism, but they're more optimistic than the typical ob millennials, so they call themselves optimistic omillenalists. So
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: but but you know the the accusers like to like to say well this is a new kid on the block and and a guy named Daniel Whitby established it in the you know 17 1800s but that that's not true there there are persons in church history who embraced what I call a victorious view of eschatology. Not things are going to get better and better but but that the gospel is going to have an effect on every aspect of culture, every aspect of life, not just in the believer's heart, so that they can go to heaven and the world goes to hell and gets worse and worse. I d that's what persuaded me listen, my position without any hesitation or reservation, is that of post millennialism. I believe listen, I I believe that we're just now getting started in history. Now you can say I don't agree. That's fine. It's okay. But my position is right now, if a thousand years in
Frank Koehn: Mm.
Wade: the Lord's economy is as one day, then we were only two thousand years since the resurrection. And therefore, that's two days. And that we're suffering from the terrible twos. You know, when a child is two years old, they call it the terrible twos. So we're going to grow up. Wha wh what if I mean guys like BB Warfield said he his belief was that there'd be at least another two hundred and forty thousand years of human history. And people say, no, AI's gonna finish that, it's gonna finish us off by twenty thirty, we'll be done. I don't think so. First of all, AI, man's not in control of history. It's it's his story, it's God's story. And and so I I have a long view. I I I believe I believe that For example, the parable of the leaven, dispensationalists say the leaven is corruption, evil, and eventually it gets into the flower and which is representative of the church and it corrupts the whole thing. Nonsense. Jesus didn't say that. I think the leaven involves a continuation of impact and effect upon whatever it's placed in. And so there's a slow process of growing. And people talk about the parable of the wheat. And the weeds. But listen, it's a wheat field, it's not a weed field.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: It's a wheat field. It's got some weeds in it, but it's not a weed field, and it's not going to the weeds. And so there there is a process involved that eventually is going to have an incredible impact. And and there's a position of postmillennialism that's called revival postmillennialism. Which means things go along and suddenly there's a big revival toward the end of history. I I don't I'm I'm not into that. I I I think there's going to be an ongoing, continuing, slow process of the gospel working itself out through the people of God in all parts of the world, so that in the end there's going to be a vast number, more more than the number of the unredeemed. Well, let me let me give you I got all kind of stuff here that we're gonna run out of time. postmillenalism is a system of eschatology rising from scripture that expects the proclaiming of the Spirit, Holy Spirit blessed gospel of Christ to win the vast majority of human beings to salvation in this present age. Increasing gospel success will gradually produce a time in history prior to Christ's return in which righteousness, peace, and prosperity will be will prefa prevail in the affairs of people and of nations. After an extensive era of such conditions, the Lord will return visibly bodily bodily and in great glory, ending history with a general resurrection and the great judgment of all mankind. That basically is a summation of of what I believe. So and you you can start digging up verses and you know I hear people all the time talking about how th how bad things are. Things are bad and gonna get worse and worse and worse. Thing things are not worse than they were a a thousand years ago. These are the best times we've ever lived in. I'm living better than I've ever lived. You have too. You may have had it easier times, but but you've never had better times as far as i overall conditions are concerned. I mean, look at us. Here four of us talking by some way and and we're miles apart and
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: and and There's no delay and then if we get off here we can get on the cell phone and talk to anybody in the world as God won't not just the technology but advances in being able to feed ourselves, advances in the gospel, the the number of people that are Christians and the number
Alex Becker: Okay.
Wade: of people that are becoming Christians. So that again
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Wade: that's I've taken too much time. So
Alex Becker: Okay.
Wade: Ask whatever you wish while you're witch waiting to ask. I mean I I wrote a book called The Joy Being Left Behind.
Alex Becker: I have
Wade: It's good.
Frank Koehn: I like the title. You have to give me a copy of that.
Wade: The joy I I'll s I I see on it.
Alex Becker: The way.
Wade: I don't sell books, I give away. The joy being left behind. Yeah.
Alex Becker: Wade so you you would say i i in church history the views pretty evenly split between the three positions or
Wade: probably there's probably more amillenalists than anything else. But again, some of those th it's it's kinda hard to you know, like like John Calvin in Geneva, postmillennialists claim him and I'm millennialists claim him. Jonathan
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Wade: Edwards, I millennialists claim him, and postmillenalists claim him. But but but he wasn't a premillenalist. So what What I believe is that the gospel is not gonna fail. And that
Alex Becker: Right.
Wade: God has a a one plan for one people and it's a big plan. And it's a family plan. And it's gonna have a family that's like the sand of the sea in number, when God's finished with this. And and I I that's that's I just have confidence in the gospel through frail creatures of dust who are who who are Who believe in that power
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: of the gospel of the kingdom of God and intend to invest it in others and others and others until the old hymn we used to sing victory, from victory unto victory, his army shall he lead till every foe is vanquished and Christ is Lord indeed. The hymn is called Stand Up, Stand Up for Jesus. You know that hymn? Yeah. Yeah, Jesus.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. yeah. Yeah, I I could hear it in my head while you were saying it.
Wade: Yeah. Listen again, from victory unto victory, his army shall he lead till every foe is vanquished, and Christ is Lord indeed. We we
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: Wow, that's awesome.
Wade: just gotta recover the confidence in the gospel.
Kent Holdeman: Mm-hmm.
Wade: This is a big this is a vast subject, guys. You know that and you you you you're trying to get me to to condense all this into we we mean we mean to do this again.
Frank Koehn: Well, I tell you what,
Alex Becker: Wait, I just
Frank Koehn: there are two things that really encourage me. And one of those is the fact that it took you a few years to figure out what you believed. Because today I was listening to some some different sermons and I I was feeling a little bad because I th I feel like I'm still trying to figure it out. But I think for those like the three of us in some of the changes that we've made in the past number of years, you you kind of go back to basics and you start building from there. And
Kent Holdeman: Okay.
Frank Koehn: so Hearing that it took you a little while gives me courage that maybe I can get there. And the other thing that I find even more encouraging is your positivity.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: I think I have had an escapist mentality for most of my life, and I just love to hear your positivasm. I think that's to me that lines up
Kent Holdeman: Mm-hmm.
Wade: Well
Frank Koehn: with the gospel.
Wade: again I think it's I think it's biblically based and I can answer questions like are there few saved and and I think that's related to Jesus addressing a particular group of people at a particular time and not
Frank Koehn: Yeah, yeah.
Wade: addressing the whole of history and the whole of the church. And my answer to that is no. He he wasn't expecting the answer for f the whole of history to be just a handful. And I've had a lot of dear friends. They're they're with the Lord now, some of them.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: That believe that there's only gonna be a few saved. Just
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: kinda me, my wife, John, his wife, us four and no more, type of deal, you know. And so but again he's gonna be in for a surprise because again, i every every everything Jesus shed his blood for is gonna be accomplished. And I believe
Alex Becker: I love it.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. I love the
Alex Becker: I I
Kent Holdeman: I love the way this Alex you can talk next, alright. I love the way this so lines up. I think I've said this multiple times, but lines up with the gospel. You know, that was one thing that I came to I think I came to first of all in my life, in in this journey of understanding
Wade: cool.
Kent Holdeman: grace. I I got a picture of the gospel. And It has been so interesting, like like Frank said, a lot of us probably do this. We have to go back to the basics. And in every one of these situations, all I had to do was compare it to the gospel. And it just there were so many of these decisions I was up against. It made sense. And and when it came to this view of eschatology, you read the end of Matthew there where Jesus tells he says, Go make disciples. Well that
Wade: Of all nations. He didn't say, Well, you can't leave out that. Go make disciples. Go therefore
Kent Holdeman: Of all the world.
Wade: and and yeah, the whole world. Ponti ethnic ethnicity.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. And that doesn't work very well with the escapist mentality. Like it just doesn't work. But when you hear this where we're I love what is it you say we're part of father and son enterprises or something like that. And we we have a mission. We we're not here trying to just say people to get off the ro earth.
Wade: we need to get you need to get your theology right. We're part of the family firm of Almighty and Sons. Kingdom Enterprise
Kent Holdeman: There you go.
Wade: Kingdom Enterprises Unlimited. You see, w I I would challenge I would challenge all three of you to add one more turn when you talk about the gospel. You need to talk about the gospel of the kingdom. Because that's what dispensationists says the kingdom was postponed. We're waiting. We're the the king is he's
Frank Koehn: Mm.
Wade: gonna be the soon the reigning king. Well he he he's not gonna be the reigning king when he returns. He's the reigning king now. And it's the gospel of the kingdom. What we present is the king, bow to the king right now, to the Lord. That means king. Christos, the the Christ. one one theologian he never uses the term Christ, he always uses King Jesus, because that's what the word Christos means. It's the it's the equivalent of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which is the anointed one, and the anointed
Kent Holdeman: What?
Wade: one was the King. So Christ it's the God Jesus said he came to preach the gospel of the kingdom. Paul closes Acts talking about the gospel of the kingdom. The kingdom is not postponed. We're presenting the king and declaring, bow your knee to the king and confess him. You confess Jesus Christ as Lord. You'll be saved. But if you don't confess him as Lord, then you're a rebel you're a continued rebel against his kingdom, and you're still in another kingdom of darkness. But what the gospel of the kingdom will do will translate you and
Kent Holdeman: Okay. Possible like that's where
Wade: transfer you from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his dear son, where we become king's kids in training for reigning. That's what this whole Amen.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm. That'll preach. That'll
Kent Holdeman: That's good.
Alex Becker: preach.
Kent Holdeman: Yes, sir.
Alex Becker: I love how to me the positive victorious view of the end. like what you presented tonight, like what that does for me in my own heart. You know what I mean? Like it's not something that it it gets it gets me fired up. It gets me excited. You know, it it really I believe makes us come alive when we believe that there is per that God has a purpose for us here on this earth. And it's not just to like you said get us off of the earth. It's for us to actually be on mission sharing and re representing Him
Kent Holdeman: That's true.
Alex Becker: to To the world around us and that his kingdom is is ever
Wade: Yeah.
Alex Becker: expanding. And also, you you mentioned this earlier about can't remember exactly how you worded it, Pastor Wade, but the idea of Christ receiving the full reward for his suffering is something that I've thought about a lot recently. And
Wade: Yeah. Yeah.
Alex Becker: I think that that should really get us fired up about his kingdom as well when we think about that, you know, if we I have a friend who is just ready to get snatched and just wants to get out of here. And he's like, Well, it's over. You know, and I'm like, Man, have you ever stopped to think about the fact that you should be praying as, you know, a child of God, that Christ receives the full reward of his suffering and that all would be saved, that he is chosen and predestined to come into the kingdom and to know him and to live in that, you know, loving relationship with Christ.
Wade: Another thing is to keep in mind how Jesus taught his disciples to pray in the model prayer. We call the Lord's prayer, it's really the model prayer. And that that is thy kingdom come.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Wade: And in what the way it's phrased in the Greek is imperative, it says, Kingdom of God come. Will of God be done. Name of God be hallowed. And so when we pray, we're saying, Kingdom of God come, let it be. Let it be on earth as it is in heaven.
Frank Koehn: Hm.
Wade: Let the below line up with the above. Now that doesn't mean there's not going hardships and and and difficulties and persecution and oppression. No, it doesn't mean that at all. It doesn't mean we advance the kingdom with with the with the bat with the the
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Wade: bullets nor ballots. It doesn't mean that. It means that we advance the kingdom through being a kingdom people loving the king and and extending. The good news of the gospel of the kingdom of God and that you can become a part of and and it's something that's God big, God planned and eternity long. And that's
Frank Koehn: Yeah, dress.
Wade: good news, boy. That's good news.
Alex Becker: That I'd like to I we're going through a book in a study called Gentle and Lowly. Wade, are you familiar? I think you're familiar with this book, Wade, Gentle and Lowly.
Wade: Yeah.
Alex Becker: there's a there's a quote in here. There's this German theologian Moltmann points out that miracles are not an interruption of the natural order, but the restoration of the natural order. We are so used to a fallen world that sickness, disease, pain, and death seem natural. In fact, they are the interruption. And I love that phrase. I love that phrase because I think oftentimes we're living, like you've stated often, you use the term nasty now. We're in the middle of it. It's the grind. It's hard. Life's tough. There's sickness and disease. And I think oftentimes we can we think that this is the natural order, what we're living in right now. But I think it does us good to remember that I You know, and it actually brings a lot of hope to me to know that that the the kingdom is progressing and that we are supposed to be and living that out, you know, with not only has God given us redemption, but then he's given us the Holy
Kent Holdeman: yeah.
Alex Becker: Spirit and this is something that is actually his purpose for us on this earth. And that excites me.
Wade: Yeah, amen. It's it's it's what Darrell Miller calls their Sunday church and then there's Monday church. And
Alex Becker: Mm.
Wade: Monday church is when you go to work and when you go to school and wherever you're going as you're going, you go as a king's kid in training for reigning in order to in order to make disciples and impact the world. Not going out just preaching every minute, but you take you take the kingdom
Alex Becker: But
Wade: atmosphere and the kingdom attitude with you And and you are a worshiper on Monday, not in the same way you are in an hour on Sunday, but you still worship because you're demonstrating ultimate value and worth of the king himself as you're doing whatever you're doing. Whether you
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: eat, whether you drink, whatever you do, do all for the glory of God. And so we need to have Monday church and not just Sunday church only. Yeah. And
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: that that gives significance in the sense that that The typical church, the typical Sunday church, and I'm for Sunday church, I'm there every Sunday if I'm not providentially hindered. But the the the problem with with with Sunday church is i i if you can't teach, if you can't preach, if you can't be a deacon, if you I call it teach, preach and deek, if you can't do those, then all you can do is take up the offering, sweep the floor and arrange the furniture. And And listen, that doesn't appeal to man. Man's got a warrior
Kent Holdeman: Good.
Wade: spirit in him. He's got a conquering dimension
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Wade: to his life. He wants challenges. And what challenge is there to go into a place and shuffle a few chairs around and say, I've been to church. But if you tell him, hey, your assignments take on the whole world, how you doing at that? Your assignment, if you were the only person in the world, that'd still be your assignment. Go to the ends of the earth. You've got to get a different view than the one you've got now. And when you get that, you'll know that you're a kingdom person on assignment wherever you go for the king. No days off. Now, again, we're not talking about teaching and preaching. We're talking about taking the life of the kingdom of God with all of its variations and dimensions, taking it into the kingdom of darkness, being salt and light and and and pushing back by the power of love. And the power of spirit filled life and the power
Kent Holdeman: That was that was
Wade: of spirit given truth, pushing back darkness and exposing the lies of the enemy,
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: and advancing from victory unto victory until every foe is vanquished in Christ is Lord indeed. Is that going to happen in my lifetime? No, heavens no. Remember again, I think we're suffering from the terrible twos. So what if
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, but
Wade: what if there's maybe not a quarter million? What if what if there's this a thousand more years? And you say, Well, I can't see that. Well, it doesn't make any difference whether you can see it or not. God's got that time figured out and and he's got it figured out where you won't be able to figure it out. So I I I live I I I live like I could die at any minute and I very well can.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: I I'd live if Jesus comes wonderful. That'd be f wonderful, it'd be good. But on the other hand, it'll only be good for me because there's There's still billions of people that have never even heard the name of Jesus one time. And
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: the church is still suffering from terrible immaturity. So you know, that any moment coming, I I'm I I I don't believe that's the case from from my understanding that that he could come today. Yeah, i i in a sense he could, but just based on my observations of where his people are now and the number of people I believe he's going to save. I I I believe there's some there's plenty of time to do the will of God.
Kent Holdeman: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Wade: Well the so we gotta get a clear vision
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: and confidence
Kent Holdeman: Okay.
Wade: that the gospel is a power of God unto salvation, not just to save my soul, but to save every aspect of my being and and extend that to the ends of the earth until the end of time. Does that mean I don't get have a tendency to get fearful at things times because of what I see coming on there? No. It's easy to do that. Especially if all you would do is watch the evening news, you know. I pretty much quit
Kent Holdeman: But yeah.
Wade: doing that. What I do is wind up getting mad and go to bed mad, you know. I I almost almost tempted to cuss, but I that doesn't get me anywhere, so And the only the only news you see is bad news because good news doesn't sell. You
Frank Koehn: Yep. Yeah.
Alex Becker: Right.
Wade: can't sell advertisements for good good stories. You gotta get the worst th and the the worst the better it sells. So anyway.
Alex Becker: Wait, I have one last question for you tonight.
Wade: Okay.
Alex Becker: What what if there's people listening to this and they're like, Well, I don't really know what I am. I you know, I r was raised maybe in a dispensational environment, but I've got questions about that. Or they like, well, but my Pastor teaches a prehistoric mill millennial or teaches all millennial and then I I I've heard Yeah.
Wade: Historic, not prehistoric. Not prehistoric. Historic, not prehistoric.
Alex Becker: hi there you go, historic premillennialism.
Wade: Priest before Easter. I'm gonna get that th I'm gonna get that slip r right, you know. Historical pre millennial, not prehistoric.
Alex Becker: I that's not the first time that I've butchered that one. Anyways, obviousnialism and then they listen to you tonight and they're I really like what Pastor Wade says about post millennial. Is it okay if in my confusion, not having it all figured out, I just say, Guys, I don't know, I'm a pan millennialist. I just believe it's gonna pan out the way God intends and not put any focus or heart or thought into that up past that, or would you what what are your what's your thoughts on that way?
Wade: Well, I used to th I used to say that, but I wound up getting convicted of just basically a smart edit remark and I quit saying it. So
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: a panmillenist. What the heck does that mean? No y y you know,
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: my position would be okay, right now I'm I'm still got a lot of historic premillennialism in me, or I got a lot of dispensationalism in me, but I wanna have a teachable spirit, what's
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: available to help me get better insight.
Alex Becker: Mm-hmm.
Wade: rather than being like Francis Schaefer's Schaefer said the humanist was, he's got both feet firmly planted in midair. So so
Alex Becker: Yeah. Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. But so with your question there, Alex, I think we have to walk at the speed that God leads us because just like I was saying to Pastor Wade before, sometimes you're working through
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: some very basic stuff and this may not be one of those basic essential things that you're having to deal with. But I do think it's important to eventually get to that because I can feel I can feel a difference in how I think. When when I'm when I sit here and listen to to Pastor Wade's viewpoints and I'm not saying I agree with everything. I don't know if I do for sure, but I love the hope and the positivity and then the enthusiasm as opposed to the way I grew up thinking. And so to me there's there's direction. I mean it's like I I'm being pulled that that way. And
Wade: So so so with that I would add this. If you continue to do the same thing you've been doing, you're gonna get the same thing you've been getting. So you're gonna have to you're gonna have to read and study outside of the position that you hold rather than try to reinforce the position you are. So you have to you have to look at some of these others. there there there are a number of books, some of them are more difficult to come by than others. But but but there's
Kent Holdeman: Okay, well.
Wade: there's there's a there's a book called An Eschatology of Victory. I don't know if it's in print anymore or not, but I've got a copy here, but it's the guy's got a funny name, Marcellus Kick. K I K. The the i it it's primarily about Matthew twenty four and Revelation twenty. And then my friend Dudley Hall get on this he he's got a ton of stuff. He just he he's got one book that's called Glad to Be Left Behind. I wrote mine before he did on the joy of being left behind. He wrote one called Glad to Be Left Behind and he just got one out now, put one out recently called At Lac. Yeah. It's very good. Dudley
Frank Koehn: Right.
Wade: is he's optimistic. He's pretty much in in line with where where I find myself. So there are a lot of good material out there that you need to explore And and not just say, Well, this is my position and I'm gonna continue to read people that argue from that position because if you do then you'll just get more confirmed in in in in the position. So th that's
Frank Koehn: So an eschatol eschatology of victories it's available on on Amazon if anybody wants it. and the other thing is so you mentioned Dudley Hall. Kent dragged me out to Dudley Hall's what do they call that thing? That
Kent Holdeman: Exactly.
Frank Koehn: seminar we went to? Epic conference. Kent
Alex Becker: Epic conference, epic
Kent Holdeman: Epic.
Frank Koehn: kind of he kinda dragged me out there last year. And man, I wanna tell you something. I'm seriously thinking about going back because I like Dudley's enthusiasm too. It's it's like you said, it's he's he's very positive and upbeat.
Wade: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Enjoyed it a lot.
Wade: Yeah, Dudley and I used to be able to spend a lot of time together. I had him in a Bible conference and w I had him every year and we got to spend a lot of time together. But he's basically, although I haven't talked with him recently, Dudley is like me. He's in the last quarter of probably the the last of the last quarter of his life. And I think he's pretty much found a heel that he's willing to die on, and that's he has seen the negative impact that a defeatist only get to go to heaven is the whole essence of the gospel, the impact that and influence that that's had, and he's trying with
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: his very gracious non opinionate he's got an opinion. But he's got a Christian way of doing it and presenting it unlike me. So for that reason I say I want to be like Dudley when I grow up. But he he's having a tremendous impact through like T B N that he he Matt Lowry did a a series on T B N and I can't remember the name of it. You can you can it it Maybe you guys know it, but I've already seen it twice. It's really good. And it's costing T B N some viewers because his father and the whole system was all dedicated dyed in the wool dispensational pre millennials. And so some really good guys, good guys all over the country that are that are teaching and writing and and doing podcasts that That are exposing the people of God to another position. That's that's encouraging, not optimistic in the sense that
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: you know, I'm just I'm just that kind of person. I everything's gonna turn out alright. Everything's not gonna turn out alright.
Kent Holdeman: That kind of person I've got one.
Wade: But the gospel is going to win in history. It's not a loser.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: Mm-hmm.
Wade: That's the whole thing. Yes.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. Yeah.
Wade: We need to talk about this some more and let let me talk about. why w what what the bottom line is. Let me just give you four things very quick without any comment. This is barred from a guy named Kendall Langford. He's a pastor up in Massachusetts. Christ is Israel concentrated and the covenants consummated. That is, Christ is. Israel concentrated, he's a true Israel, and the covenants consummated. Secondly, the people of God are now defined Christologically and not ethnically. Thirdly, the land promise is expanded to the world. A little parcel of land in the Mideast has been expanded to the whole world. Number four, circumcision, the priesthood, and the sacrifices
Kent Holdeman: Thank you for fine.
Wade: are fulfilled and abrogated, that is brought to an end in the new code.
Kent Holdeman: Perfect.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: The final covenant. So that all the promises of God find their yes and amen in Jesus Christ. Yeah.
Alex Becker: Amen.
Kent Holdeman: Man. Yeah. That'll make you enthused.
Frank Koehn: You know, Wade, if you keep doing this, we're gonna keep having you on, I'm afraid.
Wade: Well you I my deal is I eat a light meal, I watch a little bit of T V and then my wife gets sleepy and goes to bed at eight thirty and I try to stay up until ten and that's my night. That doesn't sound too exciting, but it's where it's
Kent Holdeman: Ha ha ha.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: where I am. So this is thrilling. It'll it'll take me another two hours to get unwound just from just from just from the opportunity to to get excited
Frank Koehn: Well
Wade: about what excites me and that is
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: gospel of the kingdom of God, especially the presentation of the king himself. And so th this
Frank Koehn: Yep. It's good stuff.
Wade: this is this is good stuff. And it's desperately needed on on the behalf of the people of God who've embraced this defeatist mentality of the best is behind us. And the the best we can hope for is just to get out of here as quickly as we can. Because
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: it's just gonna go from bad to worse. And that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. If you can't do anything about it, you just back up and retreat. And so, you know, I I I I've even opposing the word retreat now. We have retreat We I I had a saying when I was pastor, we're we're done with this meat eat and retreat. That's what we do, meat eat and retreat. It's time to snack. it's time to snack, smack and attack. In a spiritual sense. No more eating, meeting and retreating. Onward Christian
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: I hadn't heard
Wade: soldier.
Kent Holdeman: that one. my goodness.
Wade: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: man. Well,
Kent Holdeman: That's good.
Frank Koehn: thank you for joining us. It's been good.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. Thanks a lot, Wade.
Wade: It's a delight for did me good and helped me too. I love you guys. It's an
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Alex Becker: Wade, thank you so much. Thank you so much, Wade.
Wade: enjoyment to do this. Anytime. Next time I'll try to have some questions that I'll present to you guys.
Alex Becker: Yeah, I really wait, I hey, I really appreciate
Kent Holdeman: All right.
Alex Becker: it. And I wanted to just say one one last thing real quick. this was great. Eschatology is fun. It's awesome. But there's one topic that I would like for you to do kind of the similar thing you did tonight on even more than this, and that is your experience with the Holy Spirit and how that all transpired in your life. So I would love it if you would will you come back on and and share that testimony with us.
Wade: Sure. You want me to give a message
Alex Becker: I would love that.
Wade: in tongues and an interpretation as well?
Alex Becker: Yeah, I'd love that. Yeah. Let's do it.
Frank Koehn: Ha ha.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, 'cause ain't none of us interpreting it yet.
Wade: Well I can do my own interpretation though. Yeah, I'd be glad to. That's another thing, you know.
Frank Koehn: man.
Wade: I used to be I used to be just dead set against that, you know. And my old friend now in heaven, Jack Taylor, he said, I'll tell you one thing, if God if God can capture Wade Tremmer and get him full of the Holy Ghost, he can do it to anybody. Because
Kent Holdeman: yeah.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: I was so I was so I was so reformed I needed to be dehorned.
Alex Becker: Yeah.
Wade: John Calvin. John Calvin had John Calvin had five points. I had ten.
Frank Koehn: Ha ha.
Kent Holdeman: I I think the story about
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: w you took Chad Prater to a church or something,
Wade: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: didn't you? and and and he and he
Wade: Yeah, yeah.
Kent Holdeman: he he was determined that he wasn't gonna hit the floor and he did and he ran around to the end of the line because he didn't believe it and got dropped again. Is that actually a true
Wade: Happened again.
Kent Holdeman: story?
Wade: a true story. Happen happened at Forest
Kent Holdeman: I just
Wade: Drive Baptist Church in Columbia, South Carolina. Yeah. That's
Kent Holdeman: Ugh, I laugh every time I think about that.
Wade: another story for another time. But I don't mind. I I don't have anything to lose. You know, I'm I I am I'm not pastoring anymore and I don't have an audience of a million people and the the the people who love me, they most of them agree with me and those that don't agree with me like me anyway and so You know, I'm I'm just I'm in I'm enjoying the I'm enjoying
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: the trip, the journey. That's what I was telling the Lord today. I can't believe He's given me the privilege of fifty five years of doing what doing what I love to do, and that is
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: study and read and preach and teach. And it it's been an incredible, incredible adventure. So so that, you know, i if I had it to was given the opportunity to do that all over, I'd start out in the morning. and especially if I could start out knowing what I know now.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: And not having to, you know, just run into a wall and say, that's not a door, that's a wall. I need to go another direction. So and and being having a teachable spirit, not saying, you know, like saying like saying like one of my friends, and I know Frank, you'll have to cut this off. We've gone two hours. But but not not saying Well, I tell you one thing, I've been in the I've been in the faith fifty five years and what I believed fifty five years ago I believe now. Well I don't believe that. I believe
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Wade: the essentials, the things that were essential to the faith. But if if I haven't changed in fifty five years, I hadn't changed my theology in fifty five years
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, I've regarded this about this.
Wade: then then I I'm so narrow that th there there's one person said he is so narrow a fly could light on his nose and kick and black both of his eyes at the same time. That's an arrow.
Kent Holdeman: That's good.
Wade: No.
Frank Koehn: shoot.
Wade: So if it means you gotta change you gotta change horses, change horses, you know.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: Shoot the old one, take the saddle off and put it onto another one and and
Frank Koehn: Keep on going.
Wade: keep on going,
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: yeah. That's right. Amen. Well it's good.
Kent Holdeman: That's good.
Frank Koehn: Well, okay then. I think we should close it out, but I I believe we're we're gonna do it again at some point, Pastor Wade.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Wade: Anytime I'm ready. Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night.
Kent Holdeman: All right, sounds good.
Frank Koehn: Sounds good. All right, y'all have a good night. Yeah.
Alex Becker: All right. Yeah, have a good evening. See ya.
Wade: All right, bye bye.