Deconstruction?

Frank Koehn: So Alex, when you said we should talk about deconstruction tonight, I had to laugh because I'm like, it's just a little topic. It ain't much. We'll cover it in about thirty minutes. I don't know what all you want to talk about, but I'm looking forward to it.
alex: What do I want to talk about? man. It's a big broad topic that I mean we can talk about all kind of things, but I think all three of us have been through a version of deconstruction of some port of s you know, of s of some to some degree and probably in multiple different areas. And honestly as I look around, a lot of people that I know personally pro are deconstructing from you know, in different areas of their life as well. And it's just an interesting topic. I don't know that I have any huge reason for wanting to talk about it other than that. I just find it a interesting topic and I'd like to pick you guys brains on on it and hear your thoughts. And I don't have any I don't have any any wise, you know, thoughts or ideas on it, but I have questions because I think that it's something that Maybe I
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: don't know, y'all correct me if I'm wrong on this, but maybe everybody should go through at some point in time in their life. Maybe there's false ideas and false beliefs that we all need to deconstruct and then yeah and and how to do that in a healthy way. How to deconstruct in a healthy way and to end up after a deconstruction process to where you're not, you know, worse off than when you begin it.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm. Well, after you suggested that we talk about it a little bit, I started listening to some some different stuff online about deconstruction and I I realized that there's different the different people use the word differently. And there's there's two different definitions here. I I guess you'd call them definitions, but it the one says that many people use deconstruction. To mean leaving church, rejecting ev evangelicism, questioning morality, rejecting biblical authority, and reconstructing a personalized spirituality. And so I don't really think that's what we went through exactly. Although we did, I guess we did leave a church, but I wouldn't say we left the church. But then it said others use it to mean removing unhealthy traditions. examining inherited beliefs, separating Christ from cultural baggage, and returning to scripture itself. And that I can very much relate with. I'm like, I like all of that. So yeah.
alex: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's interesting. So you found those two definitions online somewhere?
Frank Koehn: Well, yeah, sort of. I well I started listening to some stuff and then I started having some communication with my chat bot, you know, how we do.
alex: Your buddy? Yeah.
Frank Koehn: But one reason I started thinking about it was because the one podcast, I wish I could remember who it was. It was two ladies. And whenever they used deconstruction, it was about leaving God. I mean that in their
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: mind, deconstruction meant leaving God. And I was like, well I don't think that's what it means. And so I started looking stuff up and yeah, that's where I I finally came up with these two these two different views of it. And then there's another definition here that I liked. It said deconstruction. is the process of critically examining beliefs, traditions, assumptions, and identity. The process itself is morally neutral. What matters is whether it moves someone toward truth or away from it. So I thought that was a good good definition. you're pursuing truth, that's a good thing.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: So anyway, I just I thought it was maybe important for us to to just acknowledge that when we talk about deconstruction in our lives, we're not talking about the first definition of moving away from God, but rather
alex: Right.
Frank Koehn: moving toward God.
Kent Holdeman: It's interesting. Deconstruction is is almost a buzzword today, I think. And
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: you know, you have you have people condemning any type of deconstruction. I think this goes back to a subject that we want to do a podcast on soon is is the definition of words. What do words mean? And that
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: if you're gonna have a good conversation around anything You have to be talking the same language. You have to be
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: you have to know what the other person means when he says what he's saying.
alex: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: So so yeah, I really like it that you're starting off here by defining deconstruction. Like when we say that what what what are we actually saying? you know, it comes from a philosopher like years and years ago, and it was more around I I can't remember what your that one definition you were saying there, Frank. Maybe you already said this. But
Frank Koehn: Well, I think you're referring to the part where it says that deconstruction is the process of critically examining beliefs. Or is that not what you're talking about?
Kent Holdeman: So this philosopher would have said d deconstruction asserts that human language at best communicates not absolute truth, but how a certain individual conceives of truth at a certain moment in time in the context of his cultural, political, religious, environmental, and experiential influences. So we all have We have a world view based on a lot of different things, right?
Frank Koehn: Yep.
Kent Holdeman: Based on our childhood,
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: based on books we've read, sermons we've listened to, what kind of content we're filling our minds with today. and we have this thing called a worldview. And so deconstructing when I think of what I did eight years ago, would definitely put that under deconstructing because
alex: Mm.
Kent Holdeman: my worldview was heavily influenced by the religion I was a part of and when when the one domino fell at least for me it it endangered at least and maybe toppled all the rest of them. And like
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: I didn't know what to believe. I didn't know what
Frank Koehn: Right.
Kent Holdeman: was truth anymore. For whatever reason, I never doubted the
Frank Koehn: So I'd I'd like to
Kent Holdeman: Bible, but I did doubt just about everything I believed about it.
alex: Right.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: Go.
Frank Koehn: Well, I was just wondering, you said when that first domino fell, all the other dominoes kind of fell as well. So at that point, like all that stuff that you had believed, why do you believe it?
Kent Holdeman: well there wasn't much foundation there, I can tell you that.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: I believed it because I'd been told that. And
Frank Koehn: Right.
Kent Holdeman: you know, that it's kind of funny. I knew I was supposed to have convictions against listening to music. I was supposed to have these. And at some level I think I did. And yet there was always these questions there, I couldn't make things make sense.
Frank Koehn: Right. You know what I think
Kent Holdeman: And
Frank Koehn: those actually were? You can you can keep going in just a minute, but this really just struck me is that I think what we had we had a deep conviction that our religion was against those things. I think that's what I had, more than me being convinced that it was wrong. I was convinced that my my church knew that it was wrong. Anyway, sorry, I interrupted you terribly.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, you did, but I'm used to that. so
alex: Like that you threw the word terribly in there, but anyways.
Frank Koehn: Hey, it was appropriate that time.
Kent Holdeman: So Yeah,
alex: It was actually appropriate. I'll
Kent Holdeman: right.
alex: give you that. Yeah. All right. Carry on, can't
Kent Holdeman: That well, I forgot where I was. I'm trying to remember where I was at.
Frank Koehn: that's I'm so sorry.
alex: About your convictions about your convictions that you
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
alex: you know, the basis of your convictions, I think. Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: So you it there
Frank Koehn: Like you knew you were supposed to have a conviction that you shouldn't listen to music.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there wasn't there was at at some level, like I said, I think I did have a conviction that I wasn't supposed to, and yet I didn't really have a foundation for it. And what what I think has become very, very precious to me today is the foundations that I have for my beliefs. But To get there, I had to basically take apart just about everything I believed.
Frank Koehn: Yep. Well, that makes sense with what you said.
Kent Holdeman: And and that was that was painful.
Frank Koehn: Right. And it makes sense with what you said about that you didn't have a foundation for the beliefs that you were holding to. So if something doesn't have a foundation, you do have to take everything apart.
Kent Holdeman: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: Start building at the foundation. That's the logical place to begin. And that's really difficult.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. I I yeah, I don't know if I don't know where you were wanting to go with this Alex, but I guess when you when you suggested this, that's kind of where my mind went. Like it's a buzzword that
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: a lot of people use and and I think that people have strong opinions about what it is and the dangers of it and I think there are dangers, definitely dangers
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: in this whole process. But The truth is, is I think everybody does end up at this spot at some point in their life. A lot of people do anyways.
alex: Yeah, I agree. I think that I think that you're right. It is it is used in a context or a term that is real distasteful and real ungodly. When you think about people that use the word deconstruction and they're talking about walking away from, you know, Christ, God, you know, their faith, everything. and that's that's heartbreaking. But I think yeah, the the context that I'm thinking of is I think we're always either building, constructing, or deconstructing, right? Like we're either our subconscious is never sleeping. And so we're always whether we're intentionally doing it or whether it's just in our subconscious, I think that is that process is always happening on many different topics at the same time. I think, you know, you guys mentioned it. The music we listen to, the books we listen to, the people we surround ourselves with, the pastors that that we, you know, listen to, you know, the teaching, the the the church we go to, all of that stuff is is influencing and shaping and molding and constructing our world view. And then there's times, like you said, where we come face to face with with error or something that's not right. And then, you know, I think it's a gift to be able to start deconstructing that, I think there's a danger when when we don't do it properly and and I'd love to talk about that tonight because I feel like that there's some people there's some people that there there's a there if if I can use a a reference here tonight, you guys are familiar with Sean Ryan and his show and I I I like listening to him. I I'm not hating on Sean Ryan tonight, but if you've listened to him recently, he's incredibly negative. And he's like, everything's a lie. Everything's a lie. He'll he'll just say that over and over again. It's all a lie. I think that we have to be careful that that's not the way we deconstruct where it's everything's a lie. But it needs to be a a a careful deconstruction of you know through prayer and through logic and through, you know, others around us. And it just we don't burn the whole house down, but we take out the pieces that are faulty or error and not just burn the whole thing around and become some sort of a cynical, depressed, no hope, the you know, future's
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: dark type personality or, you know, person. I don't think that's God's plan. So then, you know, how how do we deconstruct in a healthy way to where we don't just walk away from, you know, the church and our faith and God and say, it's all evil, it's all wrong, it's bad. No, there are probably aspects of it that We need to probably tear down and rebuild and let the gospel shape that shape that, you know. so yeah, I don't know, that was a little disjointed.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, let me let me let me read to you some verses about a beautiful deconstruction. So
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: this is this is in Acts. So this is in Acts and it involved Jews. So these guys have I
Frank Koehn: You say that like it's a disclaimer. Yeah, wait, go ahead.
Kent Holdeman: Well, I'm trying to set the I'm trying to set the context for this because I think it's important. Because these
alex: The context, yeah. Right.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: people were deeply religious. And
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: Okay, yeah.
Kent Holdeman: these people I think, you know, who how do we know? But they probably loved God and they wanted to serve
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: him and they were making a real effort to serve him. So this is in Acts seventeen, ten to twelve. And I'm just struck by how They were deconstructing. This is what was going on here. So the brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica. They received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men. So they're in a Jewish synagogue. So the at least here in that synagogue they would have been talking to Jews. Jews
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: who were probably deeply religious. And it says they searched the scriptures to see if these things were so so what when you deconstruct What I I guess what I'm trying to answer in my own mind is what's the right way to do it, what's the wrong way to do it? What's the d what's the dangerous way that we deconstruct? if you read this, these guys were looking f for truth.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: They weren't just throwing away willy-nilly everything they believed. They actually had a goal in mind. And to me that that's
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: that's impressive to me. Or I think it it's relevant to this to that question about what's the right way, what's the wrong way.
alex: And they they also had a touchstone or they had like a benchmark. They they had a place to go, you know, they had the word, they had they had truth. Truth wasn't subjective It it was it
Kent Holdeman: No.
alex: was like they knew they could go to the word to find truth. And so they started, you know, comparing things to something that they knew was true. The teaching that, you know. Paul was bringing them, they was they wasn't just believing it for the sake of believing it. They said, okay, well, let's go back and let's make sure that this lines up with the word. I think that's so important in this whole process. And I think that's where I think without that, man, deconstruction is the most dangerous thing that a human could ever do if you do not have a source to go to to actually, you know. ground yourself in in in in truth or i in something, you know.
Kent Holdeman: Right, right.
Frank Koehn: Okay. But I I've got a question because most of us don't decide to deconstruct. It it to me, it felt like it happened to me. Like I was living my life believing all the things I was taught all my life to believe, all my inherited beliefs that the definition referred to. And then some things happened that pushed me to the point where I'm like, Well, I I don't know what's true anymore. And it wasn't like I just was going down the road one day and I'm like, okay, now I'm gonna deconstruct and decide what's true and what's not, and I'm gonna make sure to keep the Bible in its proper place and God in his proper place.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: It was like I got knocked off my feet
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: and it happened. And so I like what y'all are saying that we need to do all of this stuff and that there's a a dangerous way to do it, but I mean I don't feel like I had a whole lot of choice in the matter. I got down to the point where I was pretty sure God existed and I I n I was pretty sure He loved me and I didn't know I mean, past that I really didn't know. And that's I mean, that's a pretty precar precarious place to be, really. I suppose.
Kent Holdeman: I don't know. I mean, what do you how much do you believe in a sovereign God? So di what what did Paul I don't think Paul was looking to deconstruct.
Frank Koehn: No, but boy, that man had a deconstruction experience that was a trip. I mean God done duck God just knocked
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. I think he got stuck.
Frank Koehn: him off his feet literally. Bam.
Kent Holdeman: But I don't know that I was looking for it either. Honestly. I I would
Frank Koehn: I don't know, I guess it just feels like it's Go ahead.
Kent Holdeman: No, I would I would love to hear what you were fixing to say.
Frank Koehn: Well, it just feels like the right now I can f I can find myself feeling real like I can feel myself having a tendency to sit there and say, Okay, this is the way it should be and we should you know, this is how it the this is the dangerous way and this is the way it should be. But when I look back, I mean, I feel like I got knocked off my feet and I laid there for a while trying to figure out which way was up. And there wasn't there was not a lot of l I don't know, I was gonna say logic, but It was kinda like a fight for my life almost.
alex: Mm.
Frank Koehn: And so I like your question, Kent, that you you said how much do you believe in a sovereign God? I mean, I think God is the one that did all of this to me or for me, however you want to look at it. And he's the one that got me through it. And he's the one that preserved me through it, but and I believe all of that. But then, like there's the one podcast that I listened to today where a person went through a similar thing that that we three did, and he ended up I mean he's in he's an agnostic. He he got to the point where he's like, he he has he can't say that he has no idea what truth is at all. And I'm like, well, that's really sad. So then I wondered why did he end up there and I ended up here because I I feel convinced that God is real and that I have a real relationship with him.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. Yeah, I I know we I think all three of us have read this this one guy who does a good bit of writing. today he's a pantheist, I think.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm. Yep.
Kent Holdeman: And he is he has an amazing insight into human nature. Like I I really, really enjoy his his his articles. They're well, I enjoy them at some level I guess. while they're not necessarily Christian, his view into human nature is is very, very interesting in how human nature responds to religion.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: But yeah, why I don't know if that's a question we can answer. You know, why does somebody end up where he is? That's that's tough, especially for somebody with such a talent.
Frank Koehn: Well, the one thing that I think we need to remember is that God works with us all individually in his own way and in his own time. And we never know where people are going to end up.
alex: Right.
Frank Koehn: People are always changing. And that's one thing
Kent Holdeman: The story isn't written yet.
Frank Koehn: Right, exactly. And that's one thing that I I thought was really cool about this guy that I listened to today that I that said he had that at this point he's an agnostic. He he was very humble in the fact that he said, you know. He was completely open, like if he had some kind of a well, he said revelation, if he had some kind of a revelation of truth, you know, that took him back toward religion, he said he was more than happy to go there. But at this point he just felt like he he couldn't know what was true. He couldn't know if there was a God. And so that level of humility is admirable, you know, because God may still be working with him to take him some other place. I don't know.
alex: But you said something and I agree with that, but you said something that really interests me. You said you didn't seek it out and it made me think, man, I don't know that anybody seeks it out. I don't know if deconstruction is ever an act of the will where you're like, I want to deconstruct from this particular thing. Usually it is it is I mean it's it's beliefs that we most of the time hold pretty close to our our heart and our you know, that we're quite convinced of.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: And it's like, I wonder if deconstruction is is most of the time, if not always, a gift from God. or I I I don't know about that. That that's not something I've thought of long enough to to say that because it could be that that a lack of faith sometimes could start you down a deconstruction journey as well. So it it could be that, you know, unbelief could spark a a whole, you know, downward spiral where you you started doubting everything or or not having faith. So I'm not sure about that, but I'm just thinking of the different times in my life where I've run across I've had questions and there seem to be no good answers. And what are you going to do at that point in time? Are you going to hold on to a an assumption or a belief just For the sake of itself, or are you going to actually pursue truth? I wonder sometimes if the more we love truth, if if more things start coming into question in our life with our, you know, our worldview and our our beliefs. And I'll tell you today, man, when it comes to even my faith, the older I get, and I believe the closer that I draw to the Lord and seek him in my life. the less dogmatic I become on certain on certain things,
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: the less I am to judge a brother for, you know, a differing a different you know, having a different view on on a on a, you know, secondary, you know, issue. I think I'm gonna hold pretty tightly to, you know, the core truth of what the gospel is and the fundamentals. But when it comes to some of this other stuff, I find myself becoming less dogmatic about some of that stuff than I I used to be. And I'm not sure exactly how I even feel about that. But it's not I don't think a lack of conviction, but it's more a awareness of my own my own ignorance, maybe or my own lack of understanding and and maybe it's actually a form of humility because I realize that I I'm not I'm I'm less educated and less learned. And have less knowledge than I thought I did as I as I get older. Do you guys know what I'm saying? Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Amen. I know exactly what you're talking about. You you can kind of think you knew quite a bit. In fact,
alex: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: the podcast that we recorded with your brother, he made that comment that that
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: he thought he knew quite a bit. And then all of sudden he re realized he didn't.
alex: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: yeah, I'm right there with you. But I want to address this thing you're talking about, Alex, because this is something I've been mulling over a lot. And I think maybe I mentioned to y'all mentioned it to you all in the chat at one point. But what do we do with the what's the relationship between certainty and faith and how does that relate to our our walk with other people like you said you're less dogmatic now than you were previously possibly on on certain things and I feel the same way I feel like I've turned loose of a lot of certainty like I I pretty much know what I believe on the core issues, but I hold on to most things quite loosely.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: And I don't want to be one of those people that it talks about in the Bible about being blown about by every wind of doctrine. But just like the podcast that I've made reference to where it was the there was two guys talking about their deconstruction journey, and the the one had been a pastor, and the he he's the guy that ended up that said he's agnostic. And you know, I could I could relate with pretty much everything he said. Like as he told about his journey, I'm like, well, I understand why he is where he is today. I didn't feel critical
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: at all at all toward him. He felt like the kind of person that I would enjoy hanging out with. Just because of his humility and his openness to truth. I mean, he ended up in a very different place than I did. And yet, okay, here's the here's I'm just gonna go ahead and get pretty open and honest here. I felt more of a kinship with that agn that agnostic man than evangelical people that I have seen posting on Facebook recently that are lashing out at people for not believing right. I'm like, that I don't want any part of, I don't like it, I don't want to even see it. Like it just turns me off terribly. And I'm like, I'll take the agnostic guy any day of the week over those people, but that's who I was. They're supposed to be my people.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: So what do you do with that? Because yeah, I've lost all my dogma. He done ran out of the yard.
alex: Yeah, I don't I don't think you've lost all your
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
alex: dogma. I don't think I don't think that's true. I think there's
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. Hang on. I'm gonna come up with some things to challenge you on yet, Frank.
alex: Yeah, and I don't think that
Frank Koehn: I'm sure I'm sure you can get a rise out of me.
alex: I I don't think that I don't know how to how to properly word this, can't Frank, but the behavior of the dogmatic Christian that's attacking everybody, I think is what repulse you. you know it's it's not it's not his it's not his faith itself, it's the behavior And and man, we all have we all have behaviors that, you know, I I I I ha I can't judge someone because I'm sure I have behaviors that are offensive as well. But I do understand that. I I feel I feel like you like it is there's something really repulsive to me of the dogmatic Christian that is just out there trying to, you know, beat up e everybody over the head with a cudgel because he doesn't agree with him. That to me is incredibly unchhristian or unchrist like and I'm like the the Christ followers should be the most gracious. We should be the most forgiving and the most understanding and the most loving instead of the most dogmatic, unpleasant, mean spirited people out there. And and and it's easy to look at one or two Christians like that and end up being so repulsed by it. We just paint that, you know, broad stroke, right? Of Christianity and Christians that are like that when Most of the Christians that I know are not like that. They're they are the kindest, most loving, you know, people in the world. So but but we all know a few and I think it's just there's something really, you know, super repulsive about that. But
Kent Holdeman: What why why do we go down that road? I I'm really curious about this right now because I have a friend who I think he has they have an exchange student that they've gotten to know quite well. the exchange student is a he's agnostic and like this friend I've had some interesting conversations with him about he said this guy's one of the nicest guys he knows. Like lot nicer than a lot of his Christian friends. And and why is it that I don't know how to I don't know how to explain my question very well here. when we see a situation like that, we tend to compare that with the most dogmatic Christians that we know.
alex: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: it's very true that there's some Christians out there that aren't a lot of fun to be around, especially if you don't agree with them. You know? That's true. I I mean, I think we all
Frank Koehn: It is very true.
Kent Holdeman: have we've been there done that. but why is it that is there a part of me that I I don't know. I was just trying to think through that. Why why is that appealing to be around somebody who's agnostic who is a nicer person than some some of the Christians I know. I don't know.
Frank Koehn: Well,
alex: I
Frank Koehn: I'd like
alex: don't
Frank Koehn: to make a suggestion. and I don't know if this is true or not, because I don't know this situation that you're talking about, but the podcast that I keep referring to, that man was not judging anybody. He he said he had no problem
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: with people who still had faith in God and and were part of whatever religion. Now he didn't have a whole lot of he didn't have a whole lot of use for the dogmatic people necessarily, but he wasn't judging anybody and saying, You have to believe like I believe. And that's where I think we Christians can really mess up because we should believe what we believe. We need to know why we believe it. We need to understand the truth of the Bible for ourselves and we need to offer it to other people. And I want to emphasize the word offer it to other people. But when we get to the point where we're telling people, you have to believe the way I believe, I think that's where so many Christians get it wrong. That and that's repulsive because humans don't like to be pushed or told what to do. It's just it just doesn't work. So I don't know.
alex: Yeah, I agree. I think that there's a some of us have are hyper allergic to judgment. And when we feel judgment from another person, that is one of the most distasteful, repulsive things, maybe because some of us have been on the receiving end of some judgment before and and it didn't go well. So You know, I think there's a a part we all want to be accepted. We wanna be we wanna be loved for who we are. And I I think that when we feel judged, criticized, condemned, it doesn't really matter where it comes from. If if the agnostic judges us, we hate it just as much as when the Christian
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: judges us. It's just it's just yeah. So I think it's it's probably that's probably just human nature and maybe Christians end up,
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: I don't know. There there is there is a there is something there that even even with myself I've had to try to overcome because I can become quite judgmental myself when people don't think and act like me. I get incredibly judgmental and mean spirited towards the judgmental mean spirited people. You know what I mean? Like I get incredibly nasty in my like the thoughts and attitudes of my heart.
Frank Koehn: Right. And you feel kind of justified doing it.
alex: Yeah, it's like you know better than they are.
Kent Holdeman: So but but here's something I think that we we can easily forget and that is that Jesus was extremely offensive.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: Yes, he was. Okay. Go on.
Kent Holdeman: He he was in a culture I yeah, let me expound here for a few minutes, Frank. he was in a culture that that did not accept him at any level and he was saying things to them that were so repulsive to them. Like it was going against everything they that they couldn't hardly stand to hear it. They would
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: rip their clothes. It it was It's just interesting to me to think of that. So we believe that Jesus, you know, never sinned. he was God, he couldn't sin. So what he did was not wrong. did he go about it in a different way? we say that we can't that that we don't we say that we offer Jesus to the people around us that don't believe in him, right? I think that's kind of the word you said there, Frank. So I guess what we're saying is we're not going to act like Jesus in this at least in this kind of a s setting.
Frank Koehn: Well, I would like to ask this then. I have some other things to talk about from before, but how often did did the did the sinners tear their clothes because of what Jesus told them? That was almost always the religious people, wasn't it?
Kent Holdeman: You're right.
Frank Koehn: I mean, he preached to the sinners, but it seemed like they they most often maybe they didn't convert, but they weren't the ones that got so angry at him. It was the
Kent Holdeman: They loved him.
Frank Koehn: Was the religious people? So I don't know. I don't know what to do with all of that. But I agree with you. Jesus was offensive to many people. And I think we need to be open about what we believe. I don't think we need to go tiptoeing around trying to hide what we believe. But there's something, I'm still hung up on this. There's something about a Christian who comes across with a dogmatic judgmental air that's so, in my opinion, is so the reason it's so distasteful is because it's anti Christian. Jesus. Like it's not what Jesus did at all, I don't think. And
alex: Right. Right.
Frank Koehn: so when you s okay, so if you if you have an arrogant atheist, that fits. I can understand why they're arrogant. They're that's part of the package, probably. But if you have an arrogant Christian, you're like, this person is supposed to be like Jesus, and here he is all dogmatic and judgmental, and you're like, something ain't right right there. That's just wrong. So
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: I think that's why that's so distasteful, maybe. I don't know.
alex: Yeah, I don't know either. I I feel like the most loving thing you can do to s someone or for someone is to tell them about Jesus. But then to turn around and to tell them exactly all the things that they're doing wrong that displeases Jesus is is like really repulsive and offensive. So I I don't know. But I do think being honest and to and and telling someone the truth about, you know, sin and the solution, which is Jesus,
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: salvation, I think is the most loving thing to do. And I don't think that that in itself, yes, there's probably that in itself probably does offend some people, but it's different if I tell you that this is what God thinks about sin, this is what the Bible says about sin, here's the solution and the answer to sin, and it's found in the same, you know, source versus when I come at you and I'm telling you. you you are doing all when it's when it's me, you know, when I can when I can bring someone the word, then am I being offensive or is the word being offensive? Is is the gospel being offensive? We know that the gospel's a stumbling block and that it is an offense and it's offensive, but do I have to be the offender in bringing it? Or can I in love bring something that they find offensive and still not be offensive? You know what mean? Me personally. I think that the gospel and the truth will offend them. But I think there's a way that if we're supposed to, the scripture talks about speaking the truth in love, there's probably a way that we should endeavor to bring it in a way that we ourselves are not the offender. But the gospel might offend, but at least we're not the offender. You know what I mean? So we can be Christ like while delivering the offensive message of the gospel to s a sinner who is, you know, set in their way. So I I don't know. something to think about, man. It's just something to really ponder because I really wonder how many times I'm just unnecessarily offensive, you know, when I I should I there's no reason to be.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
alex: Maybe it's a lack of faith on my part and trusting that the Holy Spirit's gonna do what he's gonna do and that the word of God itself is powerful enough without me having to sit here and try to be the authority behind it. You know? I
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
alex: don't know.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. So there's another aspect to this that I want to talk about. I don't know if we're finished with that angle or not, but
alex: I think so, yeah. Let's move on.
Frank Koehn: so I and I this may be something that I've spoken with y'all about privately as well, but I find I have I've been trying to figure out in my own life why I find well how do I say this? I I feel something within me that I don't want to read the Bible. Which is really bad for a Christian to say. But I think that the reason I find that within myself is because I've often read the Bible for the purpose of trying to figure out if I'm right or if I'm wrong, and whether the other people are right or wrong, or whether there's something like if there's a certain issue, you know, what what's right and wrong about it. And I you can you you're gonna have to help me on this, but I was I was thinking about this the other day. And it really impressed me that that's entirely the wrong reason to read the Bible. You shouldn't read the Bible for that purpose. You should read the Bible to learn to know Jesus. And that made sense. And that made me feel enthused. And I know that's that's elementary, very elementary. But I think that's kind of how I've been reading the Bible. Because, you know, I was raised in a system that said, We have the answers. This is right, this is wrong. And that was kind of That was kind of how that whole system worked. It had it all figured out out. It had the answers. And so I think my brain has kind of been working like that. And so I know that I know that there are many, many different positions that can be supported by the Bible that are contradictory to one another. Like all different religion or all different denominations and different types of people that all take the Bible and says, Well, here's what the Bible says and and this is what it means. And so therefore I'm right and you're wrong. And that's so distasteful to me. I like, I'm like, I don't even want to be a part of that. I don't want anything to do with that. And so often I'm like, well, I don't know if I want to read it. And that's really bad. Once again, I I know what I'm saying is really bad. But that's how I felt. And I was just really enthused and inspired by the thought that you can just forget about all that, lay all that aside, read the Bible to learn to know Jesus. And if you really do that, and if you actually get to know him, that'll take care of pretty much all the problems. So now s you can set me straight.
alex: Yeah, 'cause at the end of the day, it wasn't really matter who's right and who's wrong. I mean, we're not I mean, is that is is the world gonna stop spinning on its axis because I haven't rightly judged who's right and who's wrong on that matter? I mean, they're gonna believe what they're gonna believe, whether we agree with them or not. So I don't know. Sometimes I wonder if we just we care too much about that kind of stuff. Maybe it just doesn't
Frank Koehn: All
alex: matter.
Frank Koehn: right. I and I say Amen. But I went through a whole deconstruction experience because I decided some people were wrong and I was I was right. So
alex: Right, right.
Frank Koehn: that's the other side of it.
Kent Holdeman: Well how much how much did you think that you were right or did you were you were you more like, This is wrong. I know this is wrong.
Frank Koehn: Well, I knew I I got to the point where I knew for sure that something wasn't right about that.
alex: How much of it was you was seeking truth?
Frank Koehn: That was definitely that.
alex: I mean, isn't there like I think sometimes deconstruction the the process begins when we realize there's error and then then it's then that then sometimes I feel like it's like whatever it might be, whatever topic or or yeah, whatever the issue might be, is it's almost like a house of cards where all right, here's here's something, like you said that can earlier, like here's something that's wrong. And then it's just like it it crumbles, it fall whole thing falls apart. It's like a house of cards, and then it's like, all right, well, that was obviously wrong. So now what's the truth? And how do we where do we go from here? And I think,
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
alex: I think, man, that's gotta be the heart of any kind of deconstruction, reconstruction process is like, do you love the truth? And are you willing to go wherever it leads you? And if so, there's really nothing to fear because the truth isn't something that is fickle or can't be defended and I mean it it it's just at the end of the day it's truth, right? So we can trust and believe and and then I guess the question is where do we go for that truth? That kind of takes
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: us back to where we was at before. But I wonder sometimes if there is if a lot of it's based in fear. If I if I'm if I'm fearful of what this might this question, where this might lead or where it might take me, think that's a telltale sign on on maybe what you how you feel about truth and how how much you desire it you know
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: and then there's a question that I have is like where does that come from that has to be a gift you know to even desire it because
Frank Koehn: You mean to desire truth?
alex: yeah that's gotta be a gift from God to even want it or desire it right because i in my flesh I just kind of want things to go in the way I want them to go and I don't really want to Upset the Apple Court.
Kent Holdeman: Think I I think that desiring it we all desire it at some level but maybe you said this already something on the line of of we're afraid of it.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: We're afraid of where it's gonna take us. And I I do remember when I got to that point where I didn't care if what I learned shook or completely dismantled what I believe today. And that was a scary thing to actually get like a scary place to get to. It really it feels weird. But when you want truth so bad, you you're willing for wherever it takes you. That's a that's a I think that's w a healthy place to be.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: But it's a hard place to be.
Frank Koehn: Well yeah, I re I remember getting to that same plea place too of being willing to to literally lose everything that I had for the truth.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: And yeah, once I got there it was a good place to be, but getting there was really painful.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah. I like these verses they they meant so much to me during that time. And Frank when you were talking that I was I was reading these verses, I thought they just fit right in there. It's out of Colossians two. therefore as you receive Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him. I think that verse I read that so many times in for probably a couple of years. Because it it it just brings it right down to the basics. and as you're going through, you know, if you're deconstructing what you believe and you want truth and you're willing to to ask any question, and you read this verse, as you receive Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. So I remember that verse, that that part of that verse, just as you were taught. Screwing with my head, you know? Well, the way I was taught was this, and today I'm not real sure that all of that's true. But just keep reading and it it focuses on Christ again and again and again. I think it's
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: it's it's amazing.
Frank Koehn: Yeah. something that's interesting to me, we we like to talk or we do talk about pursuing the truth and loving the truth and searching for the truth and all of that. And then you go read that verse where it says where Jesus says, I am the way, the truth, and the life. So he is the truth. And sometimes I wonder if we really realize what that might mean. I don't even know if I know what it might mean. But We we sometimes we talk about the truth like it's something out there somewhere that we have to go find and figure out.
alex: Yeah. Yeah, this elusive thing hard to read. Yeah.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, and it's Jesus, Jesus Christ,
alex: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: who is a person, a real live, genuine, authentic, real person who's alive with a body in heaven right now.
alex: We love to complicate things, don't we?
Frank Koehn: It's so simple that we can't quite grasp it, I think.
alex: It's the I mean it's the gospel. It seems too good to be true. And
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
alex: so we try to put spins on it every all the time to complicate it to make it a little more, you know, I guess attainable because it's just it we can't hardly we can't hardly wrap our mind around how how good the gospel really is, that it's just that simple, you know.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: Nothing else seems to be that simple. I'll say this the gospel or when it comes to faith, man, God's word. And just faith in Christ and the good the good news of the gospel is such a soft place to land, God's sovereignty. It's just such a soft place to land when you think about you know going on a journey and and needing to end up somewhere.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: and we can keep talking about that, but it's so different, it's such a stark difference in my mind. on that process in my life to all the other deconstruction journeys that I've been on when it comes to politics, when it comes to health, when it comes to finances, when it comes to all that stuff. I feel like there's there is no good, soft place to land, you know. I feel like a political nomad right now. I don't have a party or a land. I'm just wandering around as lost in a desert politically, you know, like
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
alex: I I just in the same way when it comes to a lot of other topics and you know, I've come to question I think this whole faith journey that I've been on has made me question not just my faith or my beliefs that I held for thirty years of my life, you know, when it comes to faith, but it's man has made me question everything when it comes to a lot of areas of my life. And I've not found any soft place to land in most of those other topics. you know, those other areas. I'm still trying to figure some of that out. And I can easily fall into a cynical worldview on most of those other issues, kind of like we I was talking about Sean Ryan before it's all a lie. I'd I kinda agree with him on a lot of that stuff, but just grateful that when it comes to our faith, there is a place we can actually land. There's actually a source of truth and that there's a way to deconstruct without completely, you know Just free falling forever. But there is a actual, you know, place to land with that one. And I don't know how much
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
alex: time we got. I'd but I'd love to hear, like, is this you guys I think have I think you guys could, you know, share s share similar testimonies of questioning more than just your faith, right? Is is it a is that something that sparked other other questions in your life? And then I mean, how have you processed through all of that? Break out the wisdom.
Frank Koehn: I'm gonna remain silent and wait on Kent to talk.
Kent Holdeman: Thought you were fixing to say something. Go for it, man.
Frank Koehn: No. I was gonna make a joke about the moon landing.
Kent Holdeman: Ha shoot.
alex: I mean we talk about flat earth, we could talk about
Frank Koehn: Not yeah, not not appropriate at all, I know. So yeah, that's why I decided
Kent Holdeman: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: to wait on you to talk.
alex: I'll talk about moon landing any day. You wanna go there?
Frank Koehn: No. I don't
Kent Holdeman: And No sir, I ain't going there with you.
alex: No, you Kent Kent doesn't want to lose his argument tonight. He's
Kent Holdeman: I wouldn't lose the argument. I'm good. Yeah, you yeah, you do get me distracted on that one now. so I think for me one of the things that deconstruction did for me was I used to be so certain that I knew everything or most everything that was important about everything. And I don't know, man. Like I I have learned so much in the last eight years about what I don't know and how much wisdom there is out there on just about any subject you want to pick, on being a good dad, on being a husband, on being a boss, on what how to work with customers. Like nay, the I mean when you when you said not just from a Christian perspective, but I d I don't know. I think I think there was a lot of breaking down happened in that whole process, not just from a Christianity perspective. I does that make sense?
alex: Ten years ago
Frank Koehn: It does make sense.
alex: ten years ago, Kent, what have you kind of viewed yourself as at the top of the food chain? Like you had all the answers, you had life figured out. You I mean, there I know at least as far as your faith was concerned, you was at the top, right? Like you you was a part of the one the one true visible church, the bride of Christ. You you was one of the few that actually had had it all figured out there. How much of that impacted all those other areas of your life? Like do you think it did in your subconscious? Maybe even if you didn't consciously like think it or believe it, just it was just there. And then in the in the in the in the process of of finding your security in Christ instead of a religion, did a lot of that other stuff kind of come toppling down as well? Or or what's your take on that?
Kent Holdeman: so I I'm a fairly efficient worker. I enjoy being efficient. I enjoy trying to figure out ways of of speeding up processes and making things work better. You know, there's that's something I enjoy. Now I don't hold a candle to my brother Marcus. He can work circles around me. But I enjoy that. And So I don't know how much relin the religion I was a part of had to do with my mindset, Alex. I I I'm not sure. I I could see where it probably did have an effect. I don't know, but part of it's just who I am. I thought that everybody needed to do it my way. And I thought that
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: that was the way that would make everything work well, you know? And when you have two or three people working for you that can kind of work. You you you'd have employees that maybe don't stay with you for forever.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: but you can kind of make things work and you can make things efficient and and so I don't know what all that, you know, if that was influenced by religion? I just I can't say for sure. I would say that
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: coming doing the deconstructing and starting to read books, starting to go to conferences and and f and trying to learn from other people and realizing that Having one brain trying to figure everything out and eight robots on the shop floor just trying to do what they're told is a terrible way to run a business.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: And that my place isn't even though maybe I have talents in some areas, it's not my place, like it doesn't work well. You know? I thought I had all
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: the answers. The truth is, is I needed to get interested in other people. And I needed to figure
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: out what made them tick. I needed to figure out, you know, how what inspires them. What do they really want in life? And when you start at least being interested in their needs and filling the needs that you can, you know, you all of a sudden you start getting brains on the floor that are thinking for themselves. And they're doing things
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: you can go way, way, way beyond yourself. But it takes actually being interested in somebody else.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Kent Holdeman: And and and that was that was something that I had very little interest
Frank Koehn: Yeah.
Kent Holdeman: in, and I'm ashamed to say that today. But I didn't really care what other people thought.
Frank Koehn: Mm-hmm. Well, I'm suspicious, and maybe I said this already, but I'm suspicious that growing up in a religion that said it's the one true church, and I they really I think kind of felt like and still feel like they have the answers. I think that creates
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: a certain level of arrogance in a person's mind on a lot of different levels. And what it reminds me of is the analogy that Socrates used. When he was teaching his, I think it was Plato, was his student, and he talked about the people in the cave, which I mean everybody I think knows that analogy that you have people in a cave that are facing a wall. There's a fire burning behind them, and all they see on the wall are shadows of the things that are going on behind them. They're just facing this, and all they see is is moving shadows. And that they think that's reality. But if you turn around from that blank wall, all of a sudden you realize there's this whole world out there.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: That's alive and in color and real life. It's not shadows on a wall. And that's what it reminds me of. That's what it feels like to have turned from from this thing that I thought was real. And all of a sudden you realize that's not right. That's not real. This over there's and then it it creates the arrogance is dead, it's killed because you completely lose it. I mean, that's when you get
alex: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: knocked off your feet like Paul on that road. He had no arrogance left. He knew
alex: Yeah.
Frank Koehn: he was broken. And then all of a sudden you're like, well, we have this whole thing and we can spend eternity trying to figure it out, not just life. I mean,
alex: Yeah. Yeah.
Frank Koehn: even in through eternity, we can learn to know God and we can learn to know more of tr of of Jesus and the truth, because he is the truth. And to me, that's what I see in my mind when I and even like Kent, when you talk about your business, you went from from you doing things your way and trying to teach these three guys to do things your way to now having 20 guys or however many it is. Who think for themselves and they all have different perspectives. And just what you said, it it it takes things to an entirely different level because that's far more valuable than you micromanaging three people. Anyway, that was a rant.
alex: a good rant. I like that. I think that's true. I think so much has changed in all of our lives. I feel it in my own life for sure often. You know, I I I I look back to my, you know, previous life and just like, man, I really I really was arrogant. I really did think that I I had it all figured out. How little did I I mean, you know, just how little I really knew is just unbelievable that anybody could have those kind of thoughts, that kind of arrogance when you start like you said, when you turn around and you start seeing the world for what it really is, it's like, man, God becomes so much bigger. He's become so much bigger and so much greater, so much more powerful, so much more awesome and beautiful to me as well, you know, than he w used to be, you know, when had it all figured out. Had God in this little tiny box and man and he never was in the box, but you know, in my mind he was he was you know, this big this big, you know, and kinda had it figured out. So yeah, and I think that opens up the whole the whole world opens up like you said. It's just and and I really do think, I mean, I I I hope that if anybody listens to this, they don't leave feeling depressed about deconstruction and reconstruction 'cause I really do think that there's a way to do it. man, where it's healthy and where that there that there are
Kent Holdeman: Mm-hmm.
alex: There's a good way to do it. And that there is a way where honestly you start seeing, like you said, the world in color. You start seeing the world and it and it becomes beautiful. The future start looks, you know, starts to look brighter.
Frank Koehn: You're right.
alex: and that God becomes bigger and takes a a greater place in our life and and he becomes more to us and the gospel becomes beautiful and that other people and you know, our relationships, I think everything can be more fulfilled. through that process if it's if it's done with the heart that's seeking truth through it all.
Kent Holdeman: Sounds good.
Frank Koehn: So there's a couple of verses here I I'd like to read if we're finished.
Kent Holdeman: Yeah, go for it.
Frank Koehn: This is out of 1 Thessalonians 5, 16 through, I don't know, 20, maybe. Says, Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, and give thanks in all circumstances, for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you. Do not quench the spirit. And then this, this is the part. It says, Do not despise prophecies, and I think that's talking about the preaching of the gospel. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything. Hold fast to that which is good.
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: Those two little verses that say test everything. Hold fast to what is good. To me, that's what we're talking about here this evening. Like
alex: Mm-hmm.
Frank Koehn: test the thing test everything and throw out all the garbage, the stuff that doesn't matter and is worthless, and hold on to the good stuff and keep going forward in that. I just I just like that.
alex: That's good.
Kent Holdeman: Good stuff.
Frank Koehn: Y'all have a good night.
alex: That's awesome. Same to you guys. Yeah. Take
Kent Holdeman: All right.
Frank Koehn: Yeah, good talking.
alex: care.