WEBVTT
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Hey everyone, welcome to the Multiple Network podcast.
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My name is Paul Fraser.
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Thanks for jumping on today, as we finish up - as part of our Every Church A Multiplying Church initiative - Eight Objections to Church Multiplication.
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And we are on the last episode. I know this has taken a while, but it will be worth it, I'm sure of it, for you. It's going to be great.
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And it's great because we're welcoming back the co-host of this series, Michael Bronson.
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And Michael, how are you today in sunny Binbrook or Dundas? Where are you at today?
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Binbrook today. Binbrook today. Good to see you, Paul.
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I can't believe it's been eight already.
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I don't --.
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Well, it depends.
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Sometimes it feels like it's only been two.
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Sometimes it feels like it's been 20. So I don't know that episode we're on. But, this is great.
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This is great. It's good to see you.
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Well, we had goals.
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We had goals of having this done in the fall.
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But here we are today at number eight.
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And hey, we're fulfilling our vows.
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We said we were going to do eight and we're going to do eight.
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And maybe we've saved the best for last.
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Oh, I like that. I like that.
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Yeah.
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You know, you saved the best for last...
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(singing) What song is that?
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You don't even know that.
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You don't even know that song.
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Never mind.
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No, who is--? What song is it?
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Let's welcome on the guest before this gets out of control.
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(Laughter) We are so excited to have a very good friend of mine and a friend of the Multiply Network too.
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He currently works as a Regional Director for the Western Ontario District and oversees many, many, many churches, along with the leadership team there.
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He's been a church planter.
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He's been a senior pastor.
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He's also, while he was senior pastor, help plant another church.
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He's done a lot of things that I--. He's been to New Zealand, I think, to see the Lord of the Rings, where they filmed the Lord of the Rings. I guess a big Lord of the Rings guy. And an excellent carpenter. Ladies and gentlemen, would you welcome to the podcast, Sam Sibley! Dada ta da da da! Hey everybody.
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So tell us about The Lord of the Rings trip.
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Yeah. Actually, it was more my son that was interested in it that.
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I was just interested in the, just the adventure. So, we went for two weeks, fantastic trip.
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I mean, you can't go wrong going to New Zealand. It's just absolutely stunning. So. And had a great time away with my son too.
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It was good.
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Oh, very good. Yeah.
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Have you actually seen the movies, though?
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Oh yeah. Yeah, I've seen them.
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And then very cool to kind of see the places where they were filmed, right?
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Oh yeah.
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Like that would be wild because it -- because that was like one of the first movies that was really like, took the digital CGI and all of that stuff to the next level.
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But to actually see how much of it was like real life rolling hills, how they built the stages and scenes. Yeah, it was amazing.
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Did you guys watch the Amazon series and did you like it or not?
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My son did and he liked it, but I didn't watch that one.
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Okay.
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I loved Rings of Power. It was very good.
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But yeah, I don't know where they--.
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Did they film it in the same place?
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They probably didn't.
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I don't even know.
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Michael, quit taking us down these rabbit holes that just have nothing to do--.
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(Laughter) I like the Lord of the Rings. It's good. Okay. Sorry.
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We'll move on. We've got important things to talk about today.
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I know, I do too! Well, did you like, Michael, did you like Rings of Power?
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You know, at first it was a little slow, but I thought it was good in the end. Yeah.
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Yeah, I did.
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It was slow. But yeah, it turned out good. The second season was very, very good.
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But anyways.
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But maybe Sam has an objection to the Rings of Power.
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And speaking of objections, I was looking for a really terrible segway, and that was it.
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(Laughter) This one is an interesting one, and I've heard it.
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I don't know that it's like one of the top three most common, but I've definitely heard it.
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Leaders who plant have unhealthy motives.
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And we know that there are some stories out there that would prove it. So I think this one definitely has legitimacy.
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Michael, what do you think?
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Is this something that you've seen, heard, thought about?
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Yeah, I think it's-- it may not be one that's always talked about.
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Of well, if someone's doing that, it's because of this.
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It's definitely something that some of us feel, at least as we're planting. So I think it's important that we're talking about it.
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I think it's important where we're ending with it, too.
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It's just a good cap on the whole series.
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But yeah, it's definitely legit from one angle. Because we all know that that happens sometimes, right?
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Of course, there's the really good, pure hearted kingdom minded times where that happens.
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But there's definitely the times where someone plants and it's all about them and it's just filled with pride and it's about, you know -- we'll get into that, I'm sure, about control and this sort of thing.
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But yeah, I just one that immediately stuck out in my mind when we first were thinking about this, was I remember meeting someone and he was just ranting to me about how bad his boss was and how he's going to start a church in the same city, and he's going to show his boss how to actually do it.
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And then, from my understanding, is they met together, there was about ten of them, kind of as they started as a house church, and they wanted to grow into big Sunday service church. And I'm pretty sure they just would rant about the other church that they all came from and how bad it was and how good their church was going to be. And then last time I checked, the church wasn't running, still, obviously.
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But yes, this definitely exists in real world.
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And it's something that we need to talk about.
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Sam, have you bumped into this?
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I mean, you're new to your role, but you were on the district executive before.
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You have a huge heart for church multiplication.
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Any thoughts?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, no, definitely.
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You do see it.
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I don't know if we see it all the time, like Michael said, but you definitely do see it.
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And it, you know, it can be very discouraging because when you're trying to plant out a pure motives and you see the guy down the street, maybe out of not so pure motives, you know, as Michael said, you know, maybe a discontent with your lead pastor.
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You can even, you know, I can do it better than somebody else.
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All too common.
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And I think it's because we're human, right? We're fallible.
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We're sinful humans.
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And that's going to show up in what we do.
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It's going to show up in the heartbeat and in the DNA, ultimately, even of the church.
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You're going to see it ultimately bleed through in the DNA of the church when that church is started out of impure motives.
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So we're talking about these impure, unhealthy motives. Like, maybe let's describe some of them.
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So I've heard, you know, pride, maybe control.
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Sam, any any others that roll around in your head that would be like red flags for you to approve someone to be a church planter?
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Yeah. So I think selfishness is obviously a big one as well.
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You know, I want to do it my way.
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I want control.
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You know, I want to be the boss.
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That's definitely a big one for me.
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You know, we've gone through periods where church planting has been the cool thing to do.
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And so somebody might say, hey, listen, I want to-- You know, I'm a cool guy, and I want to do what cool people do.
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I would actually interpret that as, Do you really have a calling to do it, right?
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You know, it's really not for the faint of heart. You've got to make sure that there's a calling there.
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You know, lots of just impure, selfish motivations as to why we do these things.
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It's unfortunate, again, because you're starting something from brand new, so I'm really cognizant of the DNA side of things.
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And when you're starting it, cognizant of how much that DNA is going to be established by your impure motive or by your pure motive.
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Yeah.
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Michael, your thoughts around this?
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Yeah, well, I definitely think bitterness can be something as well.
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And I've heard of stories, too, where sometimes people apply for lead pastor positions and they really, you know, think they've got a vision for something that they could do it and they just can't seem to get that chair.
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So they think to themselves, you know, well, if no one will hire me to be the lead, I'll just make my own and then I'll be the lead. And then I get to do it my way. And it's just heartbreaking here hearing these stories.
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But the good news is, you know -- and I'm sure we'll get into this later -- there's so many more stories where the opposite is true.
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This, I would say, is more the exception.
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But it's something that we've got to be aware of.
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Because you never know what's lurking behind, even our own hearts, as we're planting.
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So it's important to think about.
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I think, Sam, you mentioned it -- because I actually think this really, really matters is the motives. Like, the why are you doing this?
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So I get when someone says, hey, I'm interested in church planting.
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Okay, tell me why you want to church plant, tell you why you want to multiply your church.
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And as soon as you start hearing, Well, I want to and I -- like you're looking in the mirror a lot.
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And anytime I hear rebellion -- Like, they don't know how to do it and now I'm going to do it. So that's pride.
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But the second one is when you have to prove.
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Like, they're not resting in this idea of like, I'm a son or daughter of God, I have nothing to prove.
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We can achieve.
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There's nothing wrong with achieving, but you don't have to perform. And when I start hearing planters going, Well, I have to do this so I can get that.
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And it's like performing to get affirmation, performing to get acceptance maybe by others, maybe even by God.
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And you just want to stop and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The motivation here is -- The reason why you want to plant, to reach lost people and do all those things is great.
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But the motivation behind it, the heart behind it, you have to make sure that that is pure. Because - and again, can anyone ever be totally, like, 100% pure in church planting? I don't think so.
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But for us to have a hard conversation with people.
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Like, in my excitement to have church planters added and new churches started, I think I've sometimes maybe, maybe just moved too fast through this process of, okay, I need to know why you want to do it.
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Because as a director as --.
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And boy, those have never worked out good when I haven't dug into the why.
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Right? Sam, any comments about that?
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Yeah, no, that's a good point.
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And I do think that ultimately church planting actually magnifies our shortcomings.
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You know, because we're the ones who started it. We're the ones who have chosen the name.
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We're the ones who have made up the core values. We're the ones who established, again, that DNA.
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And it's really built around that one leader.
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And that leader's life and heartbeat is really under the microscope, you know, more than maybe in a normal church.
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Right? So I do think it magnifies it. So we've got all the more responsibility to dig deep as leaders and say, what is the why with you? What are your motives?
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And and I think those will, those will bleed through.
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Like, these are perhaps even character issues, right?
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You can't cover up character issues with a coat of paint.
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It's not going to work.
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It's going to bleed through.
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And you can't put gifting above character.
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You just can't do it.
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Yeah, right, Exactly.
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You brought up a good point because so much of church planting reflects the leader's heart or the couple, you know, that's leading.
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Michael, I was there at your church this past Sunday.
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And, you know, a lot of it is reflected in your passion and your ministry and your calling, that sets the culture of the church.
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So any comments to Sam?
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Because I totally --.
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When you're a planter and you're walking in with unhealthy motives, or emotionally unhealthy, that is going to show up in the culture of your church.
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Yes, absolutely.
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And that's the importance of having a solid team, right.
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And it not being built on one person.
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There's multiple people that are helping carry the weight, but then there's people that can call you out if needed as well.
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And having the right mentors in your life, having the right friends in your life that you can have those conversations with, where they're saying, Hey, why are you doing this? I remember when we were starting our second location.
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It was a replant in Dundas. And I remember a close friend of mine just had a list of questions and said, That's so cool.
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Question one, Question two, Question Three. And just went through this list of --.
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And they were all very personal of like, I know that you really like this. Is this why you're doing this?
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What about this? Is this why you--?
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And just very specific, very detailed questions.
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And I like, just I felt so vulnerable. Like, wait, what--?
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What do you know?
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But it was a healthy conversation because now all of a sudden it's making me think about things.
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Where, Whoa, I think I had a blindspot there.
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Am I doing this because of this?
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Oh, this is actually a good point.
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And here's someone that knows me and knows what my natural inclinations would be.
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And it just was really healthy.
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So I wonder if all of our planters need to be thinking that through.
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And anyone wondering about planting, you know, who are the people close to you?
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Can you have those conversations?
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And if you don't have that kind of relationship, what are the steps of where we could start building and investing into that kind of relationship? Because accountability is huge. And along with that too, being a part of our local section, being a part of our district, being at district events. And, like, I know sometimes when you don't know people, it's awkward at first, but just breaking through, creating those relationships to have that safeguard, to have that accountability. That's definitely really important.
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Well, yeah, you got to have someone that can ask you the hard questions and you'll tell them the truth.
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But I do think, you know, I do think when we talk about the heart, I mean, Solomon gives us the greatest wisdom of all. Above all else, guard your heart, for it determines the course of your life.
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You could also say, Leader, Planter, above all else, guard your heart.
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It will determine the course of your church.
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It will reflect.
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It'll show up.
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If there's some things that are not-- if there's some wrong motives.
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Sam, you could--. You've raised a few kids, you know this.
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You can parent from a place of faith or you can parent from a place of fear and it can be the same exact action.
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Yup. It's true.
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Right? Like you can say, I don't want you to go to that party because, you know, whatever ever, ever could happen. Or you could do it from a place of faith. It's not good for your heart.
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It's not good for your soul, for your mind.
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It's not good to be around those people. I trust you to go. But it's like --.
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And I think we can do that with planting, too.
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It's like, you know, what is the motivation that's driving you?
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Is it a calling?
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Like talk about--. Like you planted, you've helped others plant. How important is burden to planting?
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Like, even more than like calling.
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How important is burden.
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Yeah, I think it's very much the same as that calling in the sense of, like I would never get into being a pastor if I didn't have that burden to care for people, you know? And it has to be, I think, same way in church planting.
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We can't just do it because it's something to do.
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There has to be a purpose in it and a burden, an overwhelming I can't get rid of this feeling of I need to do this, which to me translates back to that calling to do it.
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And it establishes in my heart a certainty that this is exactly what God is calling me to do.
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And so hopefully that causes me to overlook some of the shortcomings in my life and be exactly the kind of person that God needs me to be.
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Because so much of church planting is centered around the one person that's starting that church.
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Right? Or maybe two, as you said, with a couple. And so they really come out.
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And if I'm just doing it as a job, boy, the people are going to figure that out really quickly.
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I think if you don't have a burden, you'll quit too soon as well.
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If you don't have that deep conviction that this is what we're supposed to be doing, that could happen.
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The moment challenges come, right?
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The moment challenges come and the moment it becomes difficult.
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Exactly.
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And I think, when you have that deep burden and that deep care for people, your reliance for God increases as well. And I think one of the unhealthy motives is I can do this without Him.
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Of course you'd never say that, but you actually could act like that.
00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:39.298
Like, when you were first starting, Michael, how important was it for you to build dependency on God into your culture and team?
00:17:41.009 --> 00:17:42.598
Yeah, that's the whole thing.
00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:44.969
And it's funny when--.
00:17:44.970 --> 00:17:56.068
I remember in specific moments, where things would finally kind of get running and rolling, and I would realize, wait a minute, I used to spend, you know, these nights praying.
00:17:56.069 --> 00:17:57.749
I haven't done that in a while.
00:17:57.750 --> 00:18:05.578
Oh, things have, like, been established, so I feel comfortable now. This is one of the worst places I could be right now.
00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:07.679
I need to get back to that dependency.
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:10.739
And and I like what you guys are saying, like, back to that calling.
00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:18.989
It feels like every single one of these conversations always leads back to Is this a calling that God is bringing us to?
00:18:18.990 --> 00:18:20.429
And if not, we shouldn't do it.
00:18:20.430 --> 00:18:23.909
But if He is calling us to plant, then we have to plant.
00:18:23.910 --> 00:18:25.199
We have to do that.
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.019
And really, it just comes down to being obedient.
00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:38.219
And, you know, for those of us that are thinking, Okay, I've heard the nasty example over here, over here of this person with the bad attitude, this person with bad attitude.
00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:40.469
I don't want to be associated with that way of leading.
00:18:40.470 --> 00:18:41.470
You know.
00:18:41.970 --> 00:18:53.818
Sometimes we can think it's arrogant. Like, who am I that I think that that God has chosen me to go in and be used to set up and establish a local church.
00:18:53.819 --> 00:18:56.638
Like this is -- like, that's such a big deal.
00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:57.959
It's a big deal.
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:02.608
That God's establishing new spiritual families and new cities and new communities.
00:19:02.609 --> 00:19:18.358
I think sometimes we think if I, if I take that journey on, others will think, Oh, you must think you're something great. Or maybe I'll think I'm something great. So no, I want to avoid that. Make sure that others know I'm humble, make sure that I know myself, that I'm humble.
00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:19.318
And it's --. Wait, wait. Pause.
00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:20.969
It's not about what others think.
00:19:20.970 --> 00:19:22.259
It's not about even what we think.
00:19:22.259 --> 00:19:28.739
It's is God calling us to this, then we do it. That that's comes down to.
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:30.209
Insecurity and humility.
00:19:30.210 --> 00:19:36.959
There's a fine line, isn't there? And it's okay to be confident in the Lord.
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:43.648
And if He's going to get the glory in the end, then--. Check all those things in your heart. Where's my confidence?
00:19:43.650 --> 00:19:45.959
Who's going to get the glory?
00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:52.888
And when people ask me, you know, Oh man, this is so successful, are you going to point it and redirect it?
00:19:52.890 --> 00:20:00.744
Like, Hey, this is just God working through humble people, and God's doing something great with it.
00:20:00.746 --> 00:20:09.058
Now. So, I think we've done a good job of like, talking about the legitimacy of this.
00:20:09.059 --> 00:20:13.078
But should this stop us from multiplication?
00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:14.699
So we have a few bad examples.
00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:21.538
And unfortunately, it's those examples that you hear about. Well, you know that story about so-and-so.
00:20:21.539 --> 00:20:29.909
And it's like, you don't hear the other 99 stories of healthy church plants or healthy multi sites or healthy campuses that started.
00:20:29.910 --> 00:20:35.189
You just kind of get the bad news, hey? Why does bad news almost travel faster sometimes?
00:20:35.190 --> 00:20:50.398
And so I don't think this is--. While this is a legitimate argument, this should never be an objection, in my opinion, for us to not try it and not go for it, especially if God is calling us to it.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:51.400
Sam, what do you think?
00:20:52.650 --> 00:20:54.239
Yeah, no 100% agree.
00:20:54.240 --> 00:21:02.999
I think at the end of the day, you know, we just have to -- I think it was attributed to Gandhi where it said, be the change that you want to see in the world, that you wish to see in the world.
00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:11.818
Right? So don't let these objections or this shortcomings of other people ultimately take you away from what God wants you to do.
00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:23.878
And, you know, you said a word earlier, I want to pick up back up again. This idea of confidence, right? I do this kind of seminar that talks about confidence versus insecurity and arrogance.
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:36.568
One of things I talk about in there is just this idea that confidence is believing about yourself, what God believes about you, in spite of what we feel. It's about accepting what God has called you to, as Michael said earlier.
00:21:36.569 --> 00:21:48.749
And so this confidence really has to propel us into saying, in spite of perhaps some bad apples, in spite of a lack of finances, in spite of this, in spite of that, I am going to do it.
00:21:48.750 --> 00:21:59.359
I am not going to hold back on doing everything that God has called me to be. I cannot stop doing it and I'm going to be the change that I wish to see in the world.
00:21:59.361 --> 00:22:02.219
And I think it's really important that we do that.
00:22:02.220 --> 00:22:21.239
It's even really important that we just recognize that as leaders, we need to have more - as Michael said - we need to have more good churches out there, more good church plants out there that are doing a really good job and in really lessening the amount of churches that perhaps are birthed out of impure motives.
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:22.019
We need to be a leader.
00:22:22.019 --> 00:22:27.209
We need to influence others towards pure motives and make sure that we're doing our part.
00:22:27.210 --> 00:22:31.048
So, yeah, we can't stop church planting just because there's a few bad apples. Absolutely not.
00:22:31.049 --> 00:22:34.410
We just have to do it. We have to make sure that we're doing our part.
00:22:35.660 --> 00:22:38.209
And I mean, I need to own a little bit as too.
00:22:38.210 --> 00:22:42.108
You know, as a national leader hearing the different stories.
00:22:42.109 --> 00:22:44.388
I've got to get these stories out here.
00:22:44.390 --> 00:22:48.919
We've got to work hard at telling the good stories in our fellowship.
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:50.018
And I --.
00:22:50.019 --> 00:22:51.219
There are a ton of them.
00:22:51.220 --> 00:22:54.019
And in multiple denominations.
00:22:54.019 --> 00:23:04.489
I'm part of Church Planting Canada, and one of the denominations here in Canada started 55 new churches this year.
00:23:04.490 --> 00:23:12.378
They're about, maybe about a third to maybe, you know, somewhere our size.
00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:15.378
But they're just like -- they're just like all in.
00:23:15.380 --> 00:23:17.689
And it's like, man, we got to celebrate that.
00:23:17.690 --> 00:23:25.788
We got to get excited about these stories and stop worrying about being painted with the unhealthy motive brush.
00:23:25.789 --> 00:23:28.159
Well, you're just painting because you have unhealthy motives.
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:30.269
You don't know my heart.
00:23:30.269 --> 00:23:32.568
(Laughter) Because here's the thing.
00:23:32.569 --> 00:23:34.769
They don't even know their hearts.
00:23:34.769 --> 00:23:37.068
The Bible tells us you don't even know your own heart.
00:23:37.069 --> 00:23:39.588
How could you know someone else's?
00:23:39.589 --> 00:23:45.078
And so we've just got to let that go. Like people say, well, you're planting, you must have an unhealthy motive.
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:46.848
You can't find a job anywhere else.
00:23:46.849 --> 00:23:49.098
You must be -- That's why you're church planting.
00:23:49.099 --> 00:23:50.628
That's ridiculous.
00:23:50.630 --> 00:23:52.519
That just has to stop.
00:23:52.519 --> 00:24:00.618
And it should not be-- This, it is an objection, there's legitimacy to it -- but it really shouldn't be.
00:24:00.619 --> 00:24:02.439
Michael, your thoughts?
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:12.278
Yeah, that reminds me of a quote by Spurgeon about, you know, like, well, what if others think this, what if others think this about me and this sort of thing?
00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:19.898
There's a quote. He says, If someone thinks ill of you, don't be angry with them for you're worse than they think you to be.
00:24:19.900 --> 00:24:24.798
You know, that's like --. (Laughter) Like, we all have heart issues anyway.
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:27.278
It's like, what if this person thinks I'm a terrible person?
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:32.259
It's like, Yeah, without Jesus, we are terrible people. But we have Jesus, so it's okay.
00:24:32.259 --> 00:24:36.308
And Jesus makes us right and He makes us right with the Father.
00:24:36.309 --> 00:24:39.249
And He's changing our character day by day.
00:24:39.250 --> 00:24:40.628
And you know, it's funny.
00:24:40.630 --> 00:24:47.229
We were talking about the why. Why are the viral stories the bad stories?
00:24:47.230 --> 00:24:49.845
Right. It's just -- isn't that classic human being?
00:24:49.846 --> 00:24:53.979
It's like, what's the-- what's the-- that's a juicy detail.
00:24:53.980 --> 00:24:55.148
What else happened?
00:24:55.150 --> 00:25:02.378
What else happened? And I was just talking to our staff the other day about this. Is faithfulness is underrated.
00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:03.380
Because sometimes it's so boring.
00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:06.909
Sometimes there's no flash at all.
00:25:06.910 --> 00:25:14.858
Sometimes it's--. You know, sometimes what it is, is I showed up and I worked really hard and I didn't really see any result.
00:25:14.859 --> 00:25:16.239
And that was the week.
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:17.078
And then I showed up.
00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:18.060
I worked really hard.
00:25:18.061 --> 00:25:20.709
I prayed about it, and I didn't really see a result.
00:25:20.710 --> 00:25:27.429
But eventually, right, you plant the seed, eventually there's some growth. And I just have this conviction that one day we're all going to be in eternity.
00:25:27.430 --> 00:25:41.259
One day we're going to be all meeting the people from the scriptures and, you know, giving each others hugs and hearing the stories. And I think some of the most respected people in heaven, in eternity, we're going to look at and we're going to say, I've never heard of you before.
00:25:41.259 --> 00:25:48.068
What? Wow, I've never heard your story. I've never heard about what you've done. Because that's what good leaders do.
00:25:48.069 --> 00:25:49.088
It's not about them.
00:25:49.089 --> 00:25:50.919
There's humility, right?
00:25:50.920 --> 00:25:53.048
And they're remembering, it's about the calling.
00:25:53.049 --> 00:25:54.249
It's about being obedient.
00:25:54.250 --> 00:25:55.298
It's about the lost.
00:25:55.299 --> 00:25:56.358
That's the motivation.
00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:57.489
And it's just--.
00:25:57.490 --> 00:26:02.648
I don't know, I'm reminding myself of that. And I think just as planters, we got to be doing that.
00:26:02.650 --> 00:26:06.939
And I think it's also just reminding ourselves that you reap what you sow too, right?
00:26:06.940 --> 00:26:10.898
And making sure that we understand, what's the end game here?
00:26:10.900 --> 00:26:13.778
Like God's in the long game with us.
00:26:13.779 --> 00:26:17.358
And we need to remember that when it comes to church planting, we're in it for the long game.
00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:19.141
I was going to read it - I love what Galatians
00:26:20.529 --> 00:26:23.288
7 and on says, you know, Don't be deceived. God is not mocked.
00:26:23.289 --> 00:26:31.659
Whatever a person's sows, he'll also reap. And then it says, Those who live to satisfy their own sinful nature will harvest decay and death from that simple nature.
00:26:31.660 --> 00:26:39.900
But those who live to please the Spirit will harvest everlasting life in the Spirit. Then it says this. So let's not get tired of doing what is good.
00:26:39.901 --> 00:26:44.709
And at the right time we'll reap a harvest, a blessing if we don't give up.
00:26:44.710 --> 00:26:59.078
Therefore, whenever we have the opportunity, we should do good to everyone, especially those of the family of faith. And that's what we need to keep in mind when it comes to church planting. Yeah, there may be bad apples out there, but I'm in this for the long game and I'm not giving up. I'm not going to get tired. I'm not going to give in.
00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:02.409
I'm going to keep doing what is right and in due time, I'll repeat good harvest.
00:27:02.410 --> 00:27:03.999
I just love that verse.
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:05.000
Yeah.
00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:09.729
In other versions it says the proper time.
00:27:09.730 --> 00:27:13.439
At the proper time you will reap a harvest.
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:23.858
It's becoming one of my favorite verses because -- and I've talked about this before -- by the time you put an apple seed in the ground, it's seven years before you see any fruit.
00:27:23.859 --> 00:27:38.645
So there is a season, like, in everyone's growth journey in planting and everything, that there's -- you just don't reap right away. Like even in John 15 it says, you know, you will bear much fruit.
00:27:38.646 --> 00:27:45.159
You know, If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit. But Jesus does not say a time on it.
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:50.318
We assume that it happens right away because we like microwaves and, you know, we want everything quick.
00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:54.548
We love the journey -- Or we love the destination, not the journey, all of that stuff.
00:27:54.549 --> 00:27:57.404
So we think --. But there's actually time that fruitfulness takes.
00:27:57.405 --> 00:28:02.919
Which is why I like what Mark Batterson said, Long obedience in the same direction.
00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:05.078
That's what it is.
00:28:05.079 --> 00:28:14.499
And we've got to -- We've got to be aware that this objection is out there, but we can't be fearful of what other people think.
00:28:14.500 --> 00:28:21.680
And I don't -- I just wonder how many people have had a call in their life to start a new work.
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:26.960
But because somebody said something, they didn't do it.
00:28:27.789 --> 00:28:29.019
And that's so sad.
00:28:29.019 --> 00:28:35.588
That is so sad. Because we should --. If God said to do it, then that's all I need.
00:28:35.589 --> 00:28:37.328
That's all I need, right?
00:28:39.190 --> 00:28:40.689
Michael, Philippians 1.
00:28:40.690 --> 00:28:42.939
You've got some thoughts as well around this.
00:28:42.940 --> 00:28:47.828
Yeah, it's one of these scriptures that we come back to every once in a while.
00:28:47.829 --> 00:28:53.337
And it's Paul talking about why some people are are preaching the good news, right.
00:28:53.338 --> 00:28:57.338
15, Paul just kind of owns it.
00:28:57.339 --> 00:28:58.287
He acknowledges that it.
00:28:58.288 --> 00:29:02.618
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry.
00:29:02.619 --> 00:29:05.618
So these are people, Oh, look how good I look.
00:29:05.619 --> 00:29:07.388
Oh, I am better than this person.
00:29:07.390 --> 00:29:08.558
This person looks up to me.
00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:09.759
I get to control this.
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:13.148
But others out of goodwill.
00:29:13.150 --> 00:29:17.439
And I just, I really like how -- Yes, there's bad examples.
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:22.898
But listen, it's possible to plant a church with a pure heart.
00:29:22.900 --> 00:29:24.525
And what Paul says, out of goodwill.
00:29:24.526 --> 00:29:29.230
Like, truly out of I want the kingdom of God to grow. This is not about me.
00:29:29.231 --> 00:29:30.999
Lord, this is about you.
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:31.929
I'm lifting your name high.
00:29:31.930 --> 00:29:32.979
It's possible.
00:29:32.980 --> 00:29:33.818
And I just love this.
00:29:33.819 --> 00:29:40.989
How he says the latter do so out of love, knowing that I'm here for the defense of the gospel. And he just kind of goes on.
00:29:40.990 --> 00:29:44.169
But what does it matter?
00:29:44.170 --> 00:29:48.969
The important thing is that in every way, whether false motives or true, Christ is preached.
00:29:48.970 --> 00:29:51.338
I just love Paul's attitude here.
00:29:51.339 --> 00:29:56.648
He kind of acknowledges terrible leaders exist and are even leading churches.
00:29:56.650 --> 00:29:58.689
Anyways, I'm doing my thing.
00:29:58.690 --> 00:30:01.419
I'm not going to let it affect me.
00:30:01.420 --> 00:30:02.384
I'm just going to keep going.
00:30:02.385 --> 00:30:06.669
Because I know that why I'm doing it is for Jesus.
00:30:06.670 --> 00:30:09.679
And that's -- at the end of the day, that's what matters.
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:10.878
It reminds me of a quote.
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:12.848
I can't remember who said it.
00:30:12.849 --> 00:30:15.219
Local pastor, or church online or something.
00:30:15.220 --> 00:30:20.189
It was probably me--. (Laughter) You know what, Paul, I think it was you. The wisdom was from you.
00:30:20.190 --> 00:30:23.928
It was--. So what was that quote again, Paul? (Laughter) I don't know.
00:30:23.929 --> 00:30:24.833
No, it was it was --.
00:30:24.834 --> 00:30:27.319
There's --. (Laughter) So many.
00:30:29.019 --> 00:30:32.259
There's only grace for your race.
00:30:32.259 --> 00:30:37.929
And like, it's cheesy that it rhymes and stuff, but it's --. Wow, that's good. Just run your race.
00:30:37.930 --> 00:30:38.919
You know, we're--.
00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:40.179
You know, if we're not--.
00:30:40.180 --> 00:30:48.098
If someone's doing this over here and we don't have a say or that, well, just run your race well. And it's impossible to do it with a pure heart.
00:30:48.099 --> 00:30:49.239
So we run into that.
00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:50.048
We run into that.
00:30:50.049 --> 00:30:51.429
Yeah.
00:30:51.430 --> 00:30:58.028
I mean, I do have a message on grace for the race, but I don't think you've heard it. (Laughter) It was you, Paul.
00:30:58.029 --> 00:30:58.328
It was you.
00:30:58.329 --> 00:30:59.439
It wasn't me.
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:03.799
I don't know. But it's true that you--. God can't anoint who you pretend to be.
00:31:04.569 --> 00:31:07.778
You got to be-- You've got to be settled into who you are.
00:31:07.779 --> 00:31:12.128
And not worry about what other people are saying or doing.
00:31:12.130 --> 00:31:13.298
Just run your race.
00:31:13.299 --> 00:31:15.459
Stay in your lane. It's really, really good.
00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:26.439
So leaders who plant have unhealthy motives, we would say while there's some legitimacy, that is not enough to stop church multiplication.
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:36.578
A few bad examples shouldn't hold us back from using the New Testament model of church planting for the Great Commission.
00:31:36.579 --> 00:31:40.659
So if we believe that to be true, Sam, what should we be doing?
00:31:40.660 --> 00:31:41.709
Just doing it.
00:31:41.710 --> 00:31:42.500
Like going at it.
00:31:42.501 --> 00:31:46.204
Making sure that we have nothing holding us back.
00:31:46.205 --> 00:31:59.003
Invoking and asking for the power of God in everything that we do. Making sure that that it's more about Him than it is about us, you know, because church planting can be very much centered around a character or personality.
00:31:59.005 --> 00:32:06.788
But really making sure that we're saying, God, this is your church. I remember -- just a quick story.
00:32:06.789 --> 00:32:09.338
I said that for years in the church plant that I did.
00:32:09.339 --> 00:32:10.568
Guys, this isn't my church.
00:32:10.569 --> 00:32:11.979
This is God's church.
00:32:11.980 --> 00:32:12.759
We're going to honor Him.
00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:14.409
We're going to be faithful to that.
00:32:14.410 --> 00:32:23.078
And about a year after I left my church, actually about two years after I left my church, someone else had come in and taken over and the church actually folded.
00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:28.989
And I was so discouraged and just saying, God, what did you do? You know, why?
00:32:28.990 --> 00:32:32.220
And God took me back to that, what I had said for years.
00:32:32.221 --> 00:32:33.489
Wasn't my church.
00:32:33.490 --> 00:32:35.469
It was His church.
00:32:35.470 --> 00:32:38.949
And just reminding myself that it was not about me.
00:32:38.950 --> 00:32:41.588
It wasn't about, you know, look how I failed.
00:32:41.589 --> 00:32:43.778
Or look how the church that I planted is gone.
00:32:43.779 --> 00:32:44.648
Wasn't about me.
00:32:44.650 --> 00:32:47.439
It was always about God, right from the beginning.
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:56.199
And so, you know, I think we need to remind ourselves of that as we get into it, that it's not-- though God uses us -- it's not about us.
00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:58.959
It has to be about Him at every step.
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:02.949
Well, if it's not, then when it's going good, we get the glory.
00:33:02.950 --> 00:33:04.731
And when it goes bad, we take the L.
00:33:04.732 --> 00:33:07.838
You know, we take the loss.
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:08.769
We take the failure.
00:33:08.769 --> 00:33:14.108
I'm trying to think of that quote, Pray as if it depends on God.
00:33:14.109 --> 00:33:15.624
But work as if it depends on you.
00:33:15.625 --> 00:33:22.179
It's not saying you don't work hard, but just understanding that in the end it's God who makes it grow.
00:33:22.180 --> 00:33:29.229
You can plant. You can water. But it's God who makes it grow. Like I said, it shouldn't stop us from what's doing.
00:33:29.230 --> 00:33:30.368
Michael, your thoughts?
00:33:30.369 --> 00:33:33.068
We believe this counter statement to be true. What should we be doing?
00:33:33.069 --> 00:33:34.509
Yeah, this is what I challenge
00:33:34.509 --> 00:33:45.338
Be one of the good ones. Help change the narrative. You know, the more positive stories, the more stories that come out where people just did it for the kingdom.
00:33:45.339 --> 00:33:50.169
And it wasn't about selfish ambition. It wasn't about looking good or this sort of thing.
00:33:50.170 --> 00:33:57.249
The more the narrative will start to change. So I just want to encourage you to do that. And just, really, all of us at the end of the day --.
00:33:57.250 --> 00:34:03.189
If we took an honest self-reflection, there's probably to some degree some mixed motive.
00:34:03.190 --> 00:34:04.568
There's a really good motive here.
00:34:04.569 --> 00:34:13.088
But, you know, sin is trying to latch on to that and go along for the ride and this sort of thing. So just, let's spend some time with Jesus and hash that out.
00:34:13.090 --> 00:34:16.927
Say Jesus, can you point out where there's some sin?
00:34:16.929 --> 00:34:19.177
Can you point out where there's some unhealthy motives?
00:34:19.179 --> 00:34:21.398
Okay. Lord, can you help me work through this?
00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:24.518
And I think beautiful things will happen when when we do that.
00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:27.548
And just, because I guess this is Episode Eight, right?
00:34:27.550 --> 00:34:28.478
This is it, Paul.
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:35.079
So to all of brave people that made it to Episode Eight, just at the end here.
00:34:35.079 --> 00:34:39.309
I would encourage you, go and plant the church if God's calling you to do it.
00:34:39.309 --> 00:34:41.918
If God's going to do it, He's with you, do it.
00:34:41.920 --> 00:35:02.889
And I can't express enough just the --. If you need support, if you need a sounding board, if you need just any help at all, Paul and the team is here. Multiply Network is here. Your district leaders are here. Like, we're a part of a greater church family and we help each other and we don't have to do it alone.
00:35:02.889 --> 00:35:04.476
And it's possible to plant well.
00:35:04.478 --> 00:35:11.918
It's possible to plant with a good motivation. And it's possible to make disciples like we've never done before.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:16.088
And I just, I'm believing that for Canada. The whole team here is believing that for Canada.
00:35:16.090 --> 00:35:18.458
So we're proud of you for making it to Episode Eight.
00:35:18.460 --> 00:35:21.920
Woohoo! Yay! We should send you a certificate.
00:35:23.110 --> 00:35:23.318
(Laughter) That's right.
00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:28.268
Certificate of finishing the eight-part series.
00:35:28.269 --> 00:35:31.958
Sam, any encouragement for people thinking about planting?
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:33.309
Who are planting right now?
00:35:33.309 --> 00:35:34.478
You've done it. You've lived it.
00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:35.918
You've helped others do it.
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:43.358
Now you're in a district role where you're working with church planters and you're working with new starts.
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:46.389
So any encouragement for those leaders out there?
00:35:46.389 --> 00:35:55.268
Yeah. When I planted my church, I had two words of advice from two great guys, one from Al Dairy and one from Jay Davis.
00:35:55.269 --> 00:35:57.248
And one of them said, Just do it.
00:35:57.250 --> 00:35:58.869
Like, don't talk about it.
00:35:58.869 --> 00:36:02.739
Don't dream about it for years and years and years. Just make it happen.
00:36:02.739 --> 00:36:07.719
And the other one said, Know exactly who you are and what kind of church you want to have.
00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:11.739
Because you'll have all kinds of people trying to take you in a different direction.
00:36:11.739 --> 00:36:16.389
And, you know, we had a person come into our church and she wanted to do worship a certain way.
00:36:16.389 --> 00:36:19.239
And, you know. And I said, no, we're doing it this way.
00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:21.668
And she lasted about three weeks, literally.
00:36:21.670 --> 00:36:30.039
So you just -- you really need to know who you are and you need to know what God has laid on your heart. The kind of core values that you in the church are going to be and stick to them.
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:36.608
Because there's a reason why He's called you to that place, to that church, to those people, to that community.
00:36:36.610 --> 00:36:40.719
There's a reason why. You know, the whole Esther thing, For such a time as this.
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:54.369
And so, you know, I would say be true to what God -- the dreams and visions that God has placed on your heart. And don't compromise them. Know that they're God's, for sure. But don't compromise on them. And God will bless and honor you in the midst of that.
00:36:54.369 --> 00:36:57.338
So, yeah, two really good words of encouragement that were given to me.
00:36:57.340 --> 00:37:00.458
I give them back to everybody listening today. I think it's really important.
00:37:00.460 --> 00:37:02.619
And don't do it alone.
00:37:02.619 --> 00:37:06.367
Don't do it alone. You know, you've got a lot of people that want to speak into your life.
00:37:06.369 --> 00:37:19.989
Find good people around you that will ask you good questions and will, you know, love you and are for you, but also won't be afraid to challenge you.
00:37:19.989 --> 00:37:25.179
And you will be better for it. And the days of church planting alone are over.
00:37:25.179 --> 00:37:27.938
Don't do it. It's just not worth it.
00:37:27.940 --> 00:37:31.478
You've got lots of interdenominational relationships.
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:33.579
Maybe you're part of a network or a fellowship.
00:37:33.579 --> 00:37:34.929
You've got those connections.
00:37:34.929 --> 00:37:36.429
Reach out to those leaders.
00:37:36.429 --> 00:37:38.739
Don't do it alone.
00:37:38.739 --> 00:37:41.559
And so thanks, Sam, for jumping on today.
00:37:41.559 --> 00:37:42.489
Appreciate you.
00:37:42.489 --> 00:37:47.438
I know you're a busy dude, and you got lots of things going on with the, you know, new role.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:48.759
You just moved.
00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:51.068
Lots of things. And here you are helping us out today.
00:37:51.070 --> 00:37:54.458
Appreciate it. And Michael, as always, thanks for jumping on.
00:37:54.460 --> 00:37:56.829
You've been a wonderful co-host for this series.
00:37:56.829 --> 00:38:11.295
I'm sure we'll do some other podcasts together, but just appreciate all the time and energy. And Jim Molloy, who's helped produce this whole thing behind the scenes. He's been on a couple of episodes, but he's been a part of everything as well. So thanks to all of you.
00:38:11.295 --> 00:38:14.679
And thanks everyone for listening.
00:38:14.679 --> 00:38:16.509
This has been our pleasure to do it.
00:38:16.510 --> 00:38:22.329
We've learned a lot in this process, of the Eight Objections to Church Multiplication.
00:38:22.329 --> 00:38:27.728
Out of all the podcast series or things we've done, this is the one we've got the most feedback on.
00:38:27.730 --> 00:38:29.858
So thanks so much for leaning in.
00:38:29.860 --> 00:38:30.699
We're here to help.
00:38:30.699 --> 00:38:39.137
If you want to know of some resources, if you want more information about something, we want to be part--. We are--.
00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:42.518
Our vision is to see every church a multiplying church.
00:38:42.519 --> 00:38:50.018
And so there's lots of ways that you can do that. Check out EveryChurch.ca for some resources that are there.
00:38:50.019 --> 00:38:54.068
And we'd love to help you and connect with you however we can.
00:38:54.070 --> 00:38:57.759
Thanks so much, everyone, for tuning in today and until next time.
00:38:57.760 --> 00:38:58.760
Have a great day.
00:38:59.739 --> 00:39:00.969
Well, thanks for listening today.
00:39:00.969 --> 00:39:03.509
We trust this conversation was encouraging.
00:39:03.510 --> 00:39:10.831
If you want more information on church multiplication resources or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey, reach out to us by email.
00:39:10.833 --> 00:39:16.119
MultiplyNetwork@paoc.org. Until next time.
00:00:03.419 --> 00:00:06.118
Hey everyone, welcome to the Multiple Network podcast.
00:00:06.120 --> 00:00:07.528
My name is Paul Fraser.
00:00:07.530 --> 00:00:19.048
Thanks for jumping on today, as we finish up - as part of our Every Church A Multiplying Church initiative - Eight Objections to Church Multiplication.
00:00:19.050 --> 00:00:28.919
And we are on the last episode. I know this has taken a while, but it will be worth it, I'm sure of it, for you. It's going to be great.
00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:34.978
And it's great because we're welcoming back the co-host of this series, Michael Bronson.
00:00:34.979 --> 00:00:41.548
And Michael, how are you today in sunny Binbrook or Dundas? Where are you at today?
00:00:41.549 --> 00:00:43.859
Binbrook today. Binbrook today. Good to see you, Paul.
00:00:43.859 --> 00:00:46.079
I can't believe it's been eight already.
00:00:46.079 --> 00:00:46.862
I don't --.
00:00:46.862 --> 00:00:48.029
Well, it depends.
00:00:48.030 --> 00:00:50.069
Sometimes it feels like it's only been two.
00:00:50.070 --> 00:00:54.749
Sometimes it feels like it's been 20. So I don't know that episode we're on. But, this is great.
00:00:53.820 --> 00:00:56.789
This is great. It's good to see you.
00:00:56.789 --> 00:00:59.338
Well, we had goals.
00:00:59.340 --> 00:01:02.098
We had goals of having this done in the fall.
00:01:02.100 --> 00:01:05.549
But here we are today at number eight.
00:01:05.549 --> 00:01:09.078
And hey, we're fulfilling our vows.
00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:12.138
We said we were going to do eight and we're going to do eight.
00:01:12.140 --> 00:01:16.040
And maybe we've saved the best for last.
00:01:17.299 --> 00:01:18.618
Oh, I like that. I like that.
00:01:18.620 --> 00:01:18.888
Yeah.
00:01:18.890 --> 00:01:22.938
You know, you saved the best for last...
00:01:22.939 --> 00:01:25.039
(singing) What song is that?
00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:25.849
You don't even know that.
00:01:25.849 --> 00:01:26.838
You don't even know that song.
00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:28.158
Never mind.
00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:28.578
No, who is--? What song is it?
00:01:28.579 --> 00:01:31.049
Let's welcome on the guest before this gets out of control.
00:01:33.530 --> 00:01:40.560
(Laughter) We are so excited to have a very good friend of mine and a friend of the Multiply Network too.
00:01:41.329 --> 00:01:53.719
He currently works as a Regional Director for the Western Ontario District and oversees many, many, many churches, along with the leadership team there.
00:01:54.829 --> 00:01:56.838
He's been a church planter.
00:01:56.840 --> 00:01:59.599
He's been a senior pastor.
00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:05.478
He's also, while he was senior pastor, help plant another church.
00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:26.329
He's done a lot of things that I--. He's been to New Zealand, I think, to see the Lord of the Rings, where they filmed the Lord of the Rings. I guess a big Lord of the Rings guy. And an excellent carpenter. Ladies and gentlemen, would you welcome to the podcast, Sam Sibley! Dada ta da da da! Hey everybody.
00:02:26.330 --> 00:02:29.229
So tell us about The Lord of the Rings trip.
00:02:29.229 --> 00:02:32.229
Yeah. Actually, it was more my son that was interested in it that.
00:02:32.229 --> 00:02:37.389
I was just interested in the, just the adventure. So, we went for two weeks, fantastic trip.
00:02:37.389 --> 00:02:44.688
I mean, you can't go wrong going to New Zealand. It's just absolutely stunning. So. And had a great time away with my son too.
00:02:44.689 --> 00:02:45.689
It was good.
00:02:46.270 --> 00:02:47.558
Oh, very good. Yeah.
00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:50.150
Have you actually seen the movies, though?
00:02:50.710 --> 00:02:52.128
Oh yeah. Yeah, I've seen them.
00:02:52.129 --> 00:02:56.479
And then very cool to kind of see the places where they were filmed, right?
00:02:57.218 --> 00:02:58.058
Oh yeah.
00:02:58.060 --> 00:03:09.579
Like that would be wild because it -- because that was like one of the first movies that was really like, took the digital CGI and all of that stuff to the next level.
00:03:09.580 --> 00:03:18.729
But to actually see how much of it was like real life rolling hills, how they built the stages and scenes. Yeah, it was amazing.
00:03:18.729 --> 00:03:22.808
Did you guys watch the Amazon series and did you like it or not?
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My son did and he liked it, but I didn't watch that one.
00:03:26.650 --> 00:03:27.459
Okay.
00:03:27.460 --> 00:03:30.669
I loved Rings of Power. It was very good.
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But yeah, I don't know where they--.
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Did they film it in the same place?
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They probably didn't.
00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:37.759
I don't even know.
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Michael, quit taking us down these rabbit holes that just have nothing to do--.
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(Laughter) I like the Lord of the Rings. It's good. Okay. Sorry.
00:03:46.270 --> 00:03:47.572
We'll move on. We've got important things to talk about today.
00:03:49.550 --> 00:03:52.699
I know, I do too! Well, did you like, Michael, did you like Rings of Power?
00:03:52.699 --> 00:03:56.219
You know, at first it was a little slow, but I thought it was good in the end. Yeah.
00:03:56.449 --> 00:03:57.049
Yeah, I did.
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It was slow. But yeah, it turned out good. The second season was very, very good.
00:03:59.509 --> 00:04:00.830
But anyways.
00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:06.318
But maybe Sam has an objection to the Rings of Power.
00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:11.389
And speaking of objections, I was looking for a really terrible segway, and that was it.
00:04:15.469 --> 00:04:20.958
(Laughter) This one is an interesting one, and I've heard it.
00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:25.728
I don't know that it's like one of the top three most common, but I've definitely heard it.
00:04:25.730 --> 00:04:30.769
Leaders who plant have unhealthy motives.
00:04:30.769 --> 00:04:40.668
And we know that there are some stories out there that would prove it. So I think this one definitely has legitimacy.
00:04:40.670 --> 00:04:41.689
Michael, what do you think?
00:04:41.689 --> 00:04:44.809
Is this something that you've seen, heard, thought about?
00:04:44.810 --> 00:04:49.009
Yeah, I think it's-- it may not be one that's always talked about.
00:04:49.009 --> 00:04:52.848
Of well, if someone's doing that, it's because of this.
00:04:52.850 --> 00:04:59.178
It's definitely something that some of us feel, at least as we're planting. So I think it's important that we're talking about it.
00:04:59.180 --> 00:05:02.119
I think it's important where we're ending with it, too.
00:05:02.120 --> 00:05:04.369
It's just a good cap on the whole series.
00:05:04.370 --> 00:05:12.408
But yeah, it's definitely legit from one angle. Because we all know that that happens sometimes, right?
00:05:12.410 --> 00:05:16.338
Of course, there's the really good, pure hearted kingdom minded times where that happens.
00:05:16.339 --> 00:05:28.608
But there's definitely the times where someone plants and it's all about them and it's just filled with pride and it's about, you know -- we'll get into that, I'm sure, about control and this sort of thing.
00:05:28.610 --> 00:05:47.478
But yeah, I just one that immediately stuck out in my mind when we first were thinking about this, was I remember meeting someone and he was just ranting to me about how bad his boss was and how he's going to start a church in the same city, and he's going to show his boss how to actually do it.
00:05:47.480 --> 00:06:08.449
And then, from my understanding, is they met together, there was about ten of them, kind of as they started as a house church, and they wanted to grow into big Sunday service church. And I'm pretty sure they just would rant about the other church that they all came from and how bad it was and how good their church was going to be. And then last time I checked, the church wasn't running, still, obviously.
00:06:08.449 --> 00:06:11.269
But yes, this definitely exists in real world.
00:06:11.269 --> 00:06:14.478
And it's something that we need to talk about.
00:06:14.480 --> 00:06:16.098
Sam, have you bumped into this?
00:06:16.100 --> 00:06:20.178
I mean, you're new to your role, but you were on the district executive before.
00:06:20.180 --> 00:06:22.428
You have a huge heart for church multiplication.
00:06:22.430 --> 00:06:23.269
Any thoughts?
00:06:23.269 --> 00:06:24.439
Yeah.
00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:25.639
Yeah, no, definitely.
00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:26.478
You do see it.
00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:29.749
I don't know if we see it all the time, like Michael said, but you definitely do see it.
00:06:29.750 --> 00:06:41.718
And it, you know, it can be very discouraging because when you're trying to plant out a pure motives and you see the guy down the street, maybe out of not so pure motives, you know, as Michael said, you know, maybe a discontent with your lead pastor.
00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.204
You can even, you know, I can do it better than somebody else.
00:06:44.206 --> 00:06:46.189
All too common.
00:06:46.189 --> 00:06:49.158
And I think it's because we're human, right? We're fallible.
00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:50.238
We're sinful humans.
00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:53.119
And that's going to show up in what we do.
00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:57.978
It's going to show up in the heartbeat and in the DNA, ultimately, even of the church.
00:06:57.980 --> 00:07:03.999
You're going to see it ultimately bleed through in the DNA of the church when that church is started out of impure motives.
00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:11.689
So we're talking about these impure, unhealthy motives. Like, maybe let's describe some of them.
00:07:11.689 --> 00:07:16.910
So I've heard, you know, pride, maybe control.
00:07:18.050 --> 00:07:26.610
Sam, any any others that roll around in your head that would be like red flags for you to approve someone to be a church planter?
00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:31.009
Yeah. So I think selfishness is obviously a big one as well.
00:07:31.009 --> 00:07:32.538
You know, I want to do it my way.
00:07:32.540 --> 00:07:34.369
I want control.
00:07:34.370 --> 00:07:35.809
You know, I want to be the boss.
00:07:35.810 --> 00:07:37.908
That's definitely a big one for me.
00:07:37.910 --> 00:07:42.079
You know, we've gone through periods where church planting has been the cool thing to do.
00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:47.370
And so somebody might say, hey, listen, I want to-- You know, I'm a cool guy, and I want to do what cool people do.
00:07:48.709 --> 00:07:52.309
I would actually interpret that as, Do you really have a calling to do it, right?
00:07:52.310 --> 00:07:56.120
You know, it's really not for the faint of heart. You've got to make sure that there's a calling there.
00:07:57.319 --> 00:08:03.168
You know, lots of just impure, selfish motivations as to why we do these things.
00:08:03.170 --> 00:08:10.350
It's unfortunate, again, because you're starting something from brand new, so I'm really cognizant of the DNA side of things.
00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:19.939
And when you're starting it, cognizant of how much that DNA is going to be established by your impure motive or by your pure motive.
00:08:19.939 --> 00:08:20.988
Yeah.
00:08:20.990 --> 00:08:22.399
Michael, your thoughts around this?
00:08:23.870 --> 00:08:29.718
Yeah, well, I definitely think bitterness can be something as well.
00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:44.149
And I've heard of stories, too, where sometimes people apply for lead pastor positions and they really, you know, think they've got a vision for something that they could do it and they just can't seem to get that chair.
00:08:44.149 --> 00:08:56.869
So they think to themselves, you know, well, if no one will hire me to be the lead, I'll just make my own and then I'll be the lead. And then I get to do it my way. And it's just heartbreaking here hearing these stories.
00:08:56.870 --> 00:09:05.328
But the good news is, you know -- and I'm sure we'll get into this later -- there's so many more stories where the opposite is true.
00:09:05.330 --> 00:09:07.339
This, I would say, is more the exception.
00:09:07.340 --> 00:09:09.446
But it's something that we've got to be aware of.
00:09:09.447 --> 00:09:14.599
Because you never know what's lurking behind, even our own hearts, as we're planting.
00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:16.969
So it's important to think about.
00:09:16.970 --> 00:09:26.119
I think, Sam, you mentioned it -- because I actually think this really, really matters is the motives. Like, the why are you doing this?
00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:29.894
So I get when someone says, hey, I'm interested in church planting.
00:09:29.894 --> 00:09:34.639
Okay, tell me why you want to church plant, tell you why you want to multiply your church.
00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:42.379
And as soon as you start hearing, Well, I want to and I -- like you're looking in the mirror a lot.
00:09:42.379 --> 00:09:51.318
And anytime I hear rebellion -- Like, they don't know how to do it and now I'm going to do it. So that's pride.
00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:54.229
But the second one is when you have to prove.
00:09:55.549 --> 00:10:04.578
Like, they're not resting in this idea of like, I'm a son or daughter of God, I have nothing to prove.
00:10:04.580 --> 00:10:05.599
We can achieve.
00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:13.099
There's nothing wrong with achieving, but you don't have to perform. And when I start hearing planters going, Well, I have to do this so I can get that.
00:10:13.100 --> 00:10:21.019
And it's like performing to get affirmation, performing to get acceptance maybe by others, maybe even by God.
00:10:21.019 --> 00:10:30.408
And you just want to stop and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The motivation here is -- The reason why you want to plant, to reach lost people and do all those things is great.
00:10:30.409 --> 00:10:44.448
But the motivation behind it, the heart behind it, you have to make sure that that is pure. Because - and again, can anyone ever be totally, like, 100% pure in church planting? I don't think so.
00:10:44.450 --> 00:10:47.568
But for us to have a hard conversation with people.
00:10:47.570 --> 00:11:07.538
Like, in my excitement to have church planters added and new churches started, I think I've sometimes maybe, maybe just moved too fast through this process of, okay, I need to know why you want to do it.
00:11:07.539 --> 00:11:09.085
Because as a director as --.
00:11:09.086 --> 00:11:16.908
And boy, those have never worked out good when I haven't dug into the why.
00:11:16.909 --> 00:11:19.339
Right? Sam, any comments about that?
00:11:19.340 --> 00:11:20.928
Yeah, no, that's a good point.
00:11:20.929 --> 00:11:26.568
And I do think that ultimately church planting actually magnifies our shortcomings.
00:11:26.570 --> 00:11:30.019
You know, because we're the ones who started it. We're the ones who have chosen the name.
00:11:30.019 --> 00:11:34.188
We're the ones who have made up the core values. We're the ones who established, again, that DNA.
00:11:34.190 --> 00:11:37.158
And it's really built around that one leader.
00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:43.818
And that leader's life and heartbeat is really under the microscope, you know, more than maybe in a normal church.
00:11:43.820 --> 00:11:51.948
Right? So I do think it magnifies it. So we've got all the more responsibility to dig deep as leaders and say, what is the why with you? What are your motives?
00:11:51.950 --> 00:11:55.158
And and I think those will, those will bleed through.
00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:57.239
Like, these are perhaps even character issues, right?
00:11:57.240 --> 00:12:01.359
You can't cover up character issues with a coat of paint.
00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:02.509
It's not going to work.
00:12:02.509 --> 00:12:03.288
It's going to bleed through.
00:12:03.289 --> 00:12:06.589
And you can't put gifting above character.
00:12:06.590 --> 00:12:08.259
You just can't do it.
00:12:08.259 --> 00:12:08.989
Yeah, right, Exactly.
00:12:08.990 --> 00:12:16.668
You brought up a good point because so much of church planting reflects the leader's heart or the couple, you know, that's leading.
00:12:16.669 --> 00:12:19.308
Michael, I was there at your church this past Sunday.
00:12:19.309 --> 00:12:29.089
And, you know, a lot of it is reflected in your passion and your ministry and your calling, that sets the culture of the church.
00:12:29.090 --> 00:12:32.058
So any comments to Sam?
00:12:32.059 --> 00:12:33.722
Because I totally --.
00:12:33.724 --> 00:12:42.288
When you're a planter and you're walking in with unhealthy motives, or emotionally unhealthy, that is going to show up in the culture of your church.
00:12:43.419 --> 00:12:44.469
Yes, absolutely.
00:12:44.470 --> 00:12:47.798
And that's the importance of having a solid team, right.
00:12:47.799 --> 00:12:49.989
And it not being built on one person.
00:12:49.990 --> 00:12:56.318
There's multiple people that are helping carry the weight, but then there's people that can call you out if needed as well.
00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:08.182
And having the right mentors in your life, having the right friends in your life that you can have those conversations with, where they're saying, Hey, why are you doing this? I remember when we were starting our second location.
00:13:08.183 --> 00:13:18.700
It was a replant in Dundas. And I remember a close friend of mine just had a list of questions and said, That's so cool.
00:13:20.139 --> 00:13:23.918
Question one, Question two, Question Three. And just went through this list of --.
00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:29.589
And they were all very personal of like, I know that you really like this. Is this why you're doing this?
00:13:29.590 --> 00:13:30.969
What about this? Is this why you--?
00:13:30.970 --> 00:13:33.999
And just very specific, very detailed questions.
00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.817
And I like, just I felt so vulnerable. Like, wait, what--?
00:13:36.818 --> 00:13:38.078
What do you know?
00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:43.599
But it was a healthy conversation because now all of a sudden it's making me think about things.
00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:46.339
Where, Whoa, I think I had a blindspot there.
00:13:46.340 --> 00:13:48.639
Am I doing this because of this?
00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:49.719
Oh, this is actually a good point.
00:13:49.720 --> 00:13:54.875
And here's someone that knows me and knows what my natural inclinations would be.
00:13:54.875 --> 00:13:56.769
And it just was really healthy.
00:13:56.769 --> 00:14:00.609
So I wonder if all of our planters need to be thinking that through.
00:14:00.610 --> 00:14:05.379
And anyone wondering about planting, you know, who are the people close to you?
00:14:05.379 --> 00:14:07.298
Can you have those conversations?
00:14:07.299 --> 00:14:33.879
And if you don't have that kind of relationship, what are the steps of where we could start building and investing into that kind of relationship? Because accountability is huge. And along with that too, being a part of our local section, being a part of our district, being at district events. And, like, I know sometimes when you don't know people, it's awkward at first, but just breaking through, creating those relationships to have that safeguard, to have that accountability. That's definitely really important.
00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:39.759
Well, yeah, you got to have someone that can ask you the hard questions and you'll tell them the truth.
00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:52.869
But I do think, you know, I do think when we talk about the heart, I mean, Solomon gives us the greatest wisdom of all. Above all else, guard your heart, for it determines the course of your life.
00:14:52.870 --> 00:14:56.859
You could also say, Leader, Planter, above all else, guard your heart.
00:14:56.860 --> 00:14:59.090
It will determine the course of your church.
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:04.509
It will reflect.
00:15:04.509 --> 00:15:05.499
It'll show up.
00:15:05.500 --> 00:15:09.919
If there's some things that are not-- if there's some wrong motives.
00:15:13.090 --> 00:15:16.538
Sam, you could--. You've raised a few kids, you know this.
00:15:16.539 --> 00:15:23.360
You can parent from a place of faith or you can parent from a place of fear and it can be the same exact action.
00:15:23.970 --> 00:15:24.900
Yup. It's true.
00:15:24.902 --> 00:15:35.158
Right? Like you can say, I don't want you to go to that party because, you know, whatever ever, ever could happen. Or you could do it from a place of faith. It's not good for your heart.
00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:37.798
It's not good for your soul, for your mind.
00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:42.484
It's not good to be around those people. I trust you to go. But it's like --.
00:15:42.485 --> 00:15:45.119
And I think we can do that with planting, too.
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:51.389
It's like, you know, what is the motivation that's driving you?
00:15:51.389 --> 00:15:53.519
Is it a calling?
00:15:53.519 --> 00:15:58.259
Like talk about--. Like you planted, you've helped others plant. How important is burden to planting?
00:15:58.259 --> 00:16:00.298
Like, even more than like calling.
00:16:00.299 --> 00:16:02.190
How important is burden.
00:16:03.529 --> 00:16:14.869
Yeah, I think it's very much the same as that calling in the sense of, like I would never get into being a pastor if I didn't have that burden to care for people, you know? And it has to be, I think, same way in church planting.
00:16:14.870 --> 00:16:17.808
We can't just do it because it's something to do.
00:16:17.809 --> 00:16:30.918
There has to be a purpose in it and a burden, an overwhelming I can't get rid of this feeling of I need to do this, which to me translates back to that calling to do it.
00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:35.658
And it establishes in my heart a certainty that this is exactly what God is calling me to do.
00:16:35.659 --> 00:16:44.328
And so hopefully that causes me to overlook some of the shortcomings in my life and be exactly the kind of person that God needs me to be.
00:16:44.330 --> 00:16:49.668
Because so much of church planting is centered around the one person that's starting that church.
00:16:49.669 --> 00:16:55.099
Right? Or maybe two, as you said, with a couple. And so they really come out.
00:16:55.100 --> 00:16:59.808
And if I'm just doing it as a job, boy, the people are going to figure that out really quickly.
00:16:59.809 --> 00:17:02.419
I think if you don't have a burden, you'll quit too soon as well.
00:17:04.130 --> 00:17:10.559
If you don't have that deep conviction that this is what we're supposed to be doing, that could happen.
00:17:11.838 --> 00:17:12.943
The moment challenges come, right?
00:17:12.944 --> 00:17:15.769
The moment challenges come and the moment it becomes difficult.
00:17:15.769 --> 00:17:17.179
Exactly.
00:17:17.180 --> 00:17:29.308
And I think, when you have that deep burden and that deep care for people, your reliance for God increases as well. And I think one of the unhealthy motives is I can do this without Him.
00:17:29.309 --> 00:17:32.898
Of course you'd never say that, but you actually could act like that.
00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:39.298
Like, when you were first starting, Michael, how important was it for you to build dependency on God into your culture and team?
00:17:41.009 --> 00:17:42.598
Yeah, that's the whole thing.
00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:44.969
And it's funny when--.
00:17:44.970 --> 00:17:56.068
I remember in specific moments, where things would finally kind of get running and rolling, and I would realize, wait a minute, I used to spend, you know, these nights praying.
00:17:56.069 --> 00:17:57.749
I haven't done that in a while.
00:17:57.750 --> 00:18:05.578
Oh, things have, like, been established, so I feel comfortable now. This is one of the worst places I could be right now.
00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:07.679
I need to get back to that dependency.
00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:10.739
And and I like what you guys are saying, like, back to that calling.
00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:18.989
It feels like every single one of these conversations always leads back to Is this a calling that God is bringing us to?
00:18:18.990 --> 00:18:20.429
And if not, we shouldn't do it.
00:18:20.430 --> 00:18:23.909
But if He is calling us to plant, then we have to plant.
00:18:23.910 --> 00:18:25.199
We have to do that.
00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.019
And really, it just comes down to being obedient.
00:18:28.019 --> 00:18:38.219
And, you know, for those of us that are thinking, Okay, I've heard the nasty example over here, over here of this person with the bad attitude, this person with bad attitude.
00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:40.469
I don't want to be associated with that way of leading.
00:18:40.470 --> 00:18:41.470
You know.
00:18:41.970 --> 00:18:53.818
Sometimes we can think it's arrogant. Like, who am I that I think that that God has chosen me to go in and be used to set up and establish a local church.
00:18:53.819 --> 00:18:56.638
Like this is -- like, that's such a big deal.
00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:57.959
It's a big deal.
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:02.608
That God's establishing new spiritual families and new cities and new communities.
00:19:02.609 --> 00:19:18.358
I think sometimes we think if I, if I take that journey on, others will think, Oh, you must think you're something great. Or maybe I'll think I'm something great. So no, I want to avoid that. Make sure that others know I'm humble, make sure that I know myself, that I'm humble.
00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:19.318
And it's --. Wait, wait. Pause.
00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:20.969
It's not about what others think.
00:19:20.970 --> 00:19:22.259
It's not about even what we think.
00:19:22.259 --> 00:19:28.739
It's is God calling us to this, then we do it. That that's comes down to.
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:30.209
Insecurity and humility.
00:19:30.210 --> 00:19:36.959
There's a fine line, isn't there? And it's okay to be confident in the Lord.
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:43.648
And if He's going to get the glory in the end, then--. Check all those things in your heart. Where's my confidence?
00:19:43.650 --> 00:19:45.959
Who's going to get the glory?
00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:52.888
And when people ask me, you know, Oh man, this is so successful, are you going to point it and redirect it?
00:19:52.890 --> 00:20:00.744
Like, Hey, this is just God working through humble people, and God's doing something great with it.
00:20:00.746 --> 00:20:09.058
Now. So, I think we've done a good job of like, talking about the legitimacy of this.
00:20:09.059 --> 00:20:13.078
But should this stop us from multiplication?
00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:14.699
So we have a few bad examples.
00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:21.538
And unfortunately, it's those examples that you hear about. Well, you know that story about so-and-so.
00:20:21.539 --> 00:20:29.909
And it's like, you don't hear the other 99 stories of healthy church plants or healthy multi sites or healthy campuses that started.
00:20:29.910 --> 00:20:35.189
You just kind of get the bad news, hey? Why does bad news almost travel faster sometimes?
00:20:35.190 --> 00:20:50.398
And so I don't think this is--. While this is a legitimate argument, this should never be an objection, in my opinion, for us to not try it and not go for it, especially if God is calling us to it.
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:51.400
Sam, what do you think?
00:20:52.650 --> 00:20:54.239
Yeah, no 100% agree.
00:20:54.240 --> 00:21:02.999
I think at the end of the day, you know, we just have to -- I think it was attributed to Gandhi where it said, be the change that you want to see in the world, that you wish to see in the world.
00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:11.818
Right? So don't let these objections or this shortcomings of other people ultimately take you away from what God wants you to do.
00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:23.878
And, you know, you said a word earlier, I want to pick up back up again. This idea of confidence, right? I do this kind of seminar that talks about confidence versus insecurity and arrogance.
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:36.568
One of things I talk about in there is just this idea that confidence is believing about yourself, what God believes about you, in spite of what we feel. It's about accepting what God has called you to, as Michael said earlier.
00:21:36.569 --> 00:21:48.749
And so this confidence really has to propel us into saying, in spite of perhaps some bad apples, in spite of a lack of finances, in spite of this, in spite of that, I am going to do it.
00:21:48.750 --> 00:21:59.359
I am not going to hold back on doing everything that God has called me to be. I cannot stop doing it and I'm going to be the change that I wish to see in the world.
00:21:59.361 --> 00:22:02.219
And I think it's really important that we do that.
00:22:02.220 --> 00:22:21.239
It's even really important that we just recognize that as leaders, we need to have more - as Michael said - we need to have more good churches out there, more good church plants out there that are doing a really good job and in really lessening the amount of churches that perhaps are birthed out of impure motives.
00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:22.019
We need to be a leader.
00:22:22.019 --> 00:22:27.209
We need to influence others towards pure motives and make sure that we're doing our part.
00:22:27.210 --> 00:22:31.048
So, yeah, we can't stop church planting just because there's a few bad apples. Absolutely not.
00:22:31.049 --> 00:22:34.410
We just have to do it. We have to make sure that we're doing our part.
00:22:35.660 --> 00:22:38.209
And I mean, I need to own a little bit as too.
00:22:38.210 --> 00:22:42.108
You know, as a national leader hearing the different stories.
00:22:42.109 --> 00:22:44.388
I've got to get these stories out here.
00:22:44.390 --> 00:22:48.919
We've got to work hard at telling the good stories in our fellowship.
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:50.018
And I --.
00:22:50.019 --> 00:22:51.219
There are a ton of them.
00:22:51.220 --> 00:22:54.019
And in multiple denominations.
00:22:54.019 --> 00:23:04.489
I'm part of Church Planting Canada, and one of the denominations here in Canada started 55 new churches this year.
00:23:04.490 --> 00:23:12.378
They're about, maybe about a third to maybe, you know, somewhere our size.
00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:15.378
But they're just like -- they're just like all in.
00:23:15.380 --> 00:23:17.689
And it's like, man, we got to celebrate that.
00:23:17.690 --> 00:23:25.788
We got to get excited about these stories and stop worrying about being painted with the unhealthy motive brush.
00:23:25.789 --> 00:23:28.159
Well, you're just painting because you have unhealthy motives.
00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:30.269
You don't know my heart.
00:23:30.269 --> 00:23:32.568
(Laughter) Because here's the thing.
00:23:32.569 --> 00:23:34.769
They don't even know their hearts.
00:23:34.769 --> 00:23:37.068
The Bible tells us you don't even know your own heart.
00:23:37.069 --> 00:23:39.588
How could you know someone else's?
00:23:39.589 --> 00:23:45.078
And so we've just got to let that go. Like people say, well, you're planting, you must have an unhealthy motive.
00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:46.848
You can't find a job anywhere else.
00:23:46.849 --> 00:23:49.098
You must be -- That's why you're church planting.
00:23:49.099 --> 00:23:50.628
That's ridiculous.
00:23:50.630 --> 00:23:52.519
That just has to stop.
00:23:52.519 --> 00:24:00.618
And it should not be-- This, it is an objection, there's legitimacy to it -- but it really shouldn't be.
00:24:00.619 --> 00:24:02.439
Michael, your thoughts?
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:12.278
Yeah, that reminds me of a quote by Spurgeon about, you know, like, well, what if others think this, what if others think this about me and this sort of thing?
00:24:12.279 --> 00:24:19.898
There's a quote. He says, If someone thinks ill of you, don't be angry with them for you're worse than they think you to be.
00:24:19.900 --> 00:24:24.798
You know, that's like --. (Laughter) Like, we all have heart issues anyway.
00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:27.278
It's like, what if this person thinks I'm a terrible person?
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:32.259
It's like, Yeah, without Jesus, we are terrible people. But we have Jesus, so it's okay.
00:24:32.259 --> 00:24:36.308
And Jesus makes us right and He makes us right with the Father.
00:24:36.309 --> 00:24:39.249
And He's changing our character day by day.
00:24:39.250 --> 00:24:40.628
And you know, it's funny.
00:24:40.630 --> 00:24:47.229
We were talking about the why. Why are the viral stories the bad stories?
00:24:47.230 --> 00:24:49.845
Right. It's just -- isn't that classic human being?
00:24:49.846 --> 00:24:53.979
It's like, what's the-- what's the-- that's a juicy detail.
00:24:53.980 --> 00:24:55.148
What else happened?
00:24:55.150 --> 00:25:02.378
What else happened? And I was just talking to our staff the other day about this. Is faithfulness is underrated.
00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:03.380
Because sometimes it's so boring.
00:25:02.380 --> 00:25:06.909
Sometimes there's no flash at all.
00:25:06.910 --> 00:25:14.858
Sometimes it's--. You know, sometimes what it is, is I showed up and I worked really hard and I didn't really see any result.
00:25:14.859 --> 00:25:16.239
And that was the week.
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:17.078
And then I showed up.
00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:18.060
I worked really hard.
00:25:18.061 --> 00:25:20.709
I prayed about it, and I didn't really see a result.
00:25:20.710 --> 00:25:27.429
But eventually, right, you plant the seed, eventually there's some growth. And I just have this conviction that one day we're all going to be in eternity.
00:25:27.430 --> 00:25:41.259
One day we're going to be all meeting the people from the scriptures and, you know, giving each others hugs and hearing the stories. And I think some of the most respected people in heaven, in eternity, we're going to look at and we're going to say, I've never heard of you before.
00:25:41.259 --> 00:25:48.068
What? Wow, I've never heard your story. I've never heard about what you've done. Because that's what good leaders do.
00:25:48.069 --> 00:25:49.088
It's not about them.
00:25:49.089 --> 00:25:50.919
There's humility, right?
00:25:50.920 --> 00:25:53.048
And they're remembering, it's about the calling.
00:25:53.049 --> 00:25:54.249
It's about being obedient.
00:25:54.250 --> 00:25:55.298
It's about the lost.
00:25:55.299 --> 00:25:56.358
That's the motivation.
00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:57.489
And it's just--.
00:25:57.490 --> 00:26:02.648
I don't know, I'm reminding myself of that. And I think just as planters, we got to be doing that.
00:26:02.650 --> 00:26:06.939
And I think it's also just reminding ourselves that you reap what you sow too, right?
00:26:06.940 --> 00:26:10.898
And making sure that we understand, what's the end game here?
00:26:10.900 --> 00:26:13.778
Like God's in the long game with us.
00:26:13.779 --> 00:26:17.358
And we need to remember that when it comes to church planting, we're in it for the long game.
00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:19.141
I was going to read it - I love what Galatians
00:26:20.529 --> 00:26:23.288
7 and on says, you know, Don't be deceived. God is not mocked.
00:26:23.289 --> 00:26:31.659
Whatever a person's sows, he'll also reap. And then it says, Those who live to satisfy their own sinful nature will harvest decay and death from that simple nature.
00:26:31.660 --> 00:26:39.900
But those who live to please the Spirit will harvest everlasting life in the Spirit. Then it says this. So let's not get tired of doing what is good.
00:26:39.901 --> 00:26:44.709
And at the right time we'll reap a harvest, a blessing if we don't give up.
00:26:44.710 --> 00:26:59.078
Therefore, whenever we have the opportunity, we should do good to everyone, especially those of the family of faith. And that's what we need to keep in mind when it comes to church planting. Yeah, there may be bad apples out there, but I'm in this for the long game and I'm not giving up. I'm not going to get tired. I'm not going to give in.
00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:02.409
I'm going to keep doing what is right and in due time, I'll repeat good harvest.
00:27:02.410 --> 00:27:03.999
I just love that verse.
00:27:04.000 --> 00:27:05.000
Yeah.
00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:09.729
In other versions it says the proper time.
00:27:09.730 --> 00:27:13.439
At the proper time you will reap a harvest.
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:23.858
It's becoming one of my favorite verses because -- and I've talked about this before -- by the time you put an apple seed in the ground, it's seven years before you see any fruit.
00:27:23.859 --> 00:27:38.645
So there is a season, like, in everyone's growth journey in planting and everything, that there's -- you just don't reap right away. Like even in John 15 it says, you know, you will bear much fruit.
00:27:38.646 --> 00:27:45.159
You know, If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit. But Jesus does not say a time on it.
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:50.318
We assume that it happens right away because we like microwaves and, you know, we want everything quick.
00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:54.548
We love the journey -- Or we love the destination, not the journey, all of that stuff.
00:27:54.549 --> 00:27:57.404
So we think --. But there's actually time that fruitfulness takes.
00:27:57.405 --> 00:28:02.919
Which is why I like what Mark Batterson said, Long obedience in the same direction.
00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:05.078
That's what it is.
00:28:05.079 --> 00:28:14.499
And we've got to -- We've got to be aware that this objection is out there, but we can't be fearful of what other people think.
00:28:14.500 --> 00:28:21.680
And I don't -- I just wonder how many people have had a call in their life to start a new work.
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:26.960
But because somebody said something, they didn't do it.
00:28:27.789 --> 00:28:29.019
And that's so sad.
00:28:29.019 --> 00:28:35.588
That is so sad. Because we should --. If God said to do it, then that's all I need.
00:28:35.589 --> 00:28:37.328
That's all I need, right?
00:28:39.190 --> 00:28:40.689
Michael, Philippians 1.
00:28:40.690 --> 00:28:42.939
You've got some thoughts as well around this.
00:28:42.940 --> 00:28:47.828
Yeah, it's one of these scriptures that we come back to every once in a while.
00:28:47.829 --> 00:28:53.337
And it's Paul talking about why some people are are preaching the good news, right.
00:28:53.338 --> 00:28:57.338
15, Paul just kind of owns it.
00:28:57.339 --> 00:28:58.287
He acknowledges that it.
00:28:58.288 --> 00:29:02.618
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry.
00:29:02.619 --> 00:29:05.618
So these are people, Oh, look how good I look.
00:29:05.619 --> 00:29:07.388
Oh, I am better than this person.
00:29:07.390 --> 00:29:08.558
This person looks up to me.
00:29:08.559 --> 00:29:09.759
I get to control this.
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:13.148
But others out of goodwill.
00:29:13.150 --> 00:29:17.439
And I just, I really like how -- Yes, there's bad examples.
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:22.898
But listen, it's possible to plant a church with a pure heart.
00:29:22.900 --> 00:29:24.525
And what Paul says, out of goodwill.
00:29:24.526 --> 00:29:29.230
Like, truly out of I want the kingdom of God to grow. This is not about me.
00:29:29.231 --> 00:29:30.999
Lord, this is about you.
00:29:31.000 --> 00:29:31.929
I'm lifting your name high.
00:29:31.930 --> 00:29:32.979
It's possible.
00:29:32.980 --> 00:29:33.818
And I just love this.
00:29:33.819 --> 00:29:40.989
How he says the latter do so out of love, knowing that I'm here for the defense of the gospel. And he just kind of goes on.
00:29:40.990 --> 00:29:44.169
But what does it matter?
00:29:44.170 --> 00:29:48.969
The important thing is that in every way, whether false motives or true, Christ is preached.
00:29:48.970 --> 00:29:51.338
I just love Paul's attitude here.
00:29:51.339 --> 00:29:56.648
He kind of acknowledges terrible leaders exist and are even leading churches.
00:29:56.650 --> 00:29:58.689
Anyways, I'm doing my thing.
00:29:58.690 --> 00:30:01.419
I'm not going to let it affect me.
00:30:01.420 --> 00:30:02.384
I'm just going to keep going.
00:30:02.385 --> 00:30:06.669
Because I know that why I'm doing it is for Jesus.
00:30:06.670 --> 00:30:09.679
And that's -- at the end of the day, that's what matters.
00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:10.878
It reminds me of a quote.
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:12.848
I can't remember who said it.
00:30:12.849 --> 00:30:15.219
Local pastor, or church online or something.
00:30:15.220 --> 00:30:20.189
It was probably me--. (Laughter) You know what, Paul, I think it was you. The wisdom was from you.
00:30:20.190 --> 00:30:23.928
It was--. So what was that quote again, Paul? (Laughter) I don't know.
00:30:23.929 --> 00:30:24.833
No, it was it was --.
00:30:24.834 --> 00:30:27.319
There's --. (Laughter) So many.
00:30:29.019 --> 00:30:32.259
There's only grace for your race.
00:30:32.259 --> 00:30:37.929
And like, it's cheesy that it rhymes and stuff, but it's --. Wow, that's good. Just run your race.
00:30:37.930 --> 00:30:38.919
You know, we're--.
00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:40.179
You know, if we're not--.
00:30:40.180 --> 00:30:48.098
If someone's doing this over here and we don't have a say or that, well, just run your race well. And it's impossible to do it with a pure heart.
00:30:48.099 --> 00:30:49.239
So we run into that.
00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:50.048
We run into that.
00:30:50.049 --> 00:30:51.429
Yeah.
00:30:51.430 --> 00:30:58.028
I mean, I do have a message on grace for the race, but I don't think you've heard it. (Laughter) It was you, Paul.
00:30:58.029 --> 00:30:58.328
It was you.
00:30:58.329 --> 00:30:59.439
It wasn't me.
00:30:59.440 --> 00:31:03.799
I don't know. But it's true that you--. God can't anoint who you pretend to be.
00:31:04.569 --> 00:31:07.778
You got to be-- You've got to be settled into who you are.
00:31:07.779 --> 00:31:12.128
And not worry about what other people are saying or doing.
00:31:12.130 --> 00:31:13.298
Just run your race.
00:31:13.299 --> 00:31:15.459
Stay in your lane. It's really, really good.
00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:26.439
So leaders who plant have unhealthy motives, we would say while there's some legitimacy, that is not enough to stop church multiplication.
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:36.578
A few bad examples shouldn't hold us back from using the New Testament model of church planting for the Great Commission.
00:31:36.579 --> 00:31:40.659
So if we believe that to be true, Sam, what should we be doing?
00:31:40.660 --> 00:31:41.709
Just doing it.
00:31:41.710 --> 00:31:42.500
Like going at it.
00:31:42.501 --> 00:31:46.204
Making sure that we have nothing holding us back.
00:31:46.205 --> 00:31:59.003
Invoking and asking for the power of God in everything that we do. Making sure that that it's more about Him than it is about us, you know, because church planting can be very much centered around a character or personality.
00:31:59.005 --> 00:32:06.788
But really making sure that we're saying, God, this is your church. I remember -- just a quick story.
00:32:06.789 --> 00:32:09.338
I said that for years in the church plant that I did.
00:32:09.339 --> 00:32:10.568
Guys, this isn't my church.
00:32:10.569 --> 00:32:11.979
This is God's church.
00:32:11.980 --> 00:32:12.759
We're going to honor Him.
00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:14.409
We're going to be faithful to that.
00:32:14.410 --> 00:32:23.078
And about a year after I left my church, actually about two years after I left my church, someone else had come in and taken over and the church actually folded.
00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:28.989
And I was so discouraged and just saying, God, what did you do? You know, why?
00:32:28.990 --> 00:32:32.220
And God took me back to that, what I had said for years.
00:32:32.221 --> 00:32:33.489
Wasn't my church.
00:32:33.490 --> 00:32:35.469
It was His church.
00:32:35.470 --> 00:32:38.949
And just reminding myself that it was not about me.
00:32:38.950 --> 00:32:41.588
It wasn't about, you know, look how I failed.
00:32:41.589 --> 00:32:43.778
Or look how the church that I planted is gone.
00:32:43.779 --> 00:32:44.648
Wasn't about me.
00:32:44.650 --> 00:32:47.439
It was always about God, right from the beginning.
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:56.199
And so, you know, I think we need to remind ourselves of that as we get into it, that it's not-- though God uses us -- it's not about us.
00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:58.959
It has to be about Him at every step.
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:02.949
Well, if it's not, then when it's going good, we get the glory.
00:33:02.950 --> 00:33:04.731
And when it goes bad, we take the L.
00:33:04.732 --> 00:33:07.838
You know, we take the loss.
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:08.769
We take the failure.
00:33:08.769 --> 00:33:14.108
I'm trying to think of that quote, Pray as if it depends on God.
00:33:14.109 --> 00:33:15.624
But work as if it depends on you.
00:33:15.625 --> 00:33:22.179
It's not saying you don't work hard, but just understanding that in the end it's God who makes it grow.
00:33:22.180 --> 00:33:29.229
You can plant. You can water. But it's God who makes it grow. Like I said, it shouldn't stop us from what's doing.
00:33:29.230 --> 00:33:30.368
Michael, your thoughts?
00:33:30.369 --> 00:33:33.068
We believe this counter statement to be true. What should we be doing?
00:33:33.069 --> 00:33:34.509
Yeah, this is what I challenge
00:33:34.509 --> 00:33:45.338
Be one of the good ones. Help change the narrative. You know, the more positive stories, the more stories that come out where people just did it for the kingdom.
00:33:45.339 --> 00:33:50.169
And it wasn't about selfish ambition. It wasn't about looking good or this sort of thing.
00:33:50.170 --> 00:33:57.249
The more the narrative will start to change. So I just want to encourage you to do that. And just, really, all of us at the end of the day --.
00:33:57.250 --> 00:34:03.189
If we took an honest self-reflection, there's probably to some degree some mixed motive.
00:34:03.190 --> 00:34:04.568
There's a really good motive here.
00:34:04.569 --> 00:34:13.088
But, you know, sin is trying to latch on to that and go along for the ride and this sort of thing. So just, let's spend some time with Jesus and hash that out.
00:34:13.090 --> 00:34:16.927
Say Jesus, can you point out where there's some sin?
00:34:16.929 --> 00:34:19.177
Can you point out where there's some unhealthy motives?
00:34:19.179 --> 00:34:21.398
Okay. Lord, can you help me work through this?
00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:24.518
And I think beautiful things will happen when when we do that.
00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:27.548
And just, because I guess this is Episode Eight, right?
00:34:27.550 --> 00:34:28.478
This is it, Paul.
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:35.079
So to all of brave people that made it to Episode Eight, just at the end here.
00:34:35.079 --> 00:34:39.309
I would encourage you, go and plant the church if God's calling you to do it.
00:34:39.309 --> 00:34:41.918
If God's going to do it, He's with you, do it.
00:34:41.920 --> 00:35:02.889
And I can't express enough just the --. If you need support, if you need a sounding board, if you need just any help at all, Paul and the team is here. Multiply Network is here. Your district leaders are here. Like, we're a part of a greater church family and we help each other and we don't have to do it alone.
00:35:02.889 --> 00:35:04.476
And it's possible to plant well.
00:35:04.478 --> 00:35:11.918
It's possible to plant with a good motivation. And it's possible to make disciples like we've never done before.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:16.088
And I just, I'm believing that for Canada. The whole team here is believing that for Canada.
00:35:16.090 --> 00:35:18.458
So we're proud of you for making it to Episode Eight.
00:35:18.460 --> 00:35:21.920
Woohoo! Yay! We should send you a certificate.
00:35:23.110 --> 00:35:23.318
(Laughter) That's right.
00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:28.268
Certificate of finishing the eight-part series.
00:35:28.269 --> 00:35:31.958
Sam, any encouragement for people thinking about planting?
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:33.309
Who are planting right now?
00:35:33.309 --> 00:35:34.478
You've done it. You've lived it.
00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:35.918
You've helped others do it.
00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:43.358
Now you're in a district role where you're working with church planters and you're working with new starts.
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:46.389
So any encouragement for those leaders out there?
00:35:46.389 --> 00:35:55.268
Yeah. When I planted my church, I had two words of advice from two great guys, one from Al Dairy and one from Jay Davis.
00:35:55.269 --> 00:35:57.248
And one of them said, Just do it.
00:35:57.250 --> 00:35:58.869
Like, don't talk about it.
00:35:58.869 --> 00:36:02.739
Don't dream about it for years and years and years. Just make it happen.
00:36:02.739 --> 00:36:07.719
And the other one said, Know exactly who you are and what kind of church you want to have.
00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:11.739
Because you'll have all kinds of people trying to take you in a different direction.
00:36:11.739 --> 00:36:16.389
And, you know, we had a person come into our church and she wanted to do worship a certain way.
00:36:16.389 --> 00:36:19.239
And, you know. And I said, no, we're doing it this way.
00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:21.668
And she lasted about three weeks, literally.
00:36:21.670 --> 00:36:30.039
So you just -- you really need to know who you are and you need to know what God has laid on your heart. The kind of core values that you in the church are going to be and stick to them.
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:36.608
Because there's a reason why He's called you to that place, to that church, to those people, to that community.
00:36:36.610 --> 00:36:40.719
There's a reason why. You know, the whole Esther thing, For such a time as this.
00:36:40.719 --> 00:36:54.369
And so, you know, I would say be true to what God -- the dreams and visions that God has placed on your heart. And don't compromise them. Know that they're God's, for sure. But don't compromise on them. And God will bless and honor you in the midst of that.
00:36:54.369 --> 00:36:57.338
So, yeah, two really good words of encouragement that were given to me.
00:36:57.340 --> 00:37:00.458
I give them back to everybody listening today. I think it's really important.
00:37:00.460 --> 00:37:02.619
And don't do it alone.
00:37:02.619 --> 00:37:06.367
Don't do it alone. You know, you've got a lot of people that want to speak into your life.
00:37:06.369 --> 00:37:19.989
Find good people around you that will ask you good questions and will, you know, love you and are for you, but also won't be afraid to challenge you.
00:37:19.989 --> 00:37:25.179
And you will be better for it. And the days of church planting alone are over.
00:37:25.179 --> 00:37:27.938
Don't do it. It's just not worth it.
00:37:27.940 --> 00:37:31.478
You've got lots of interdenominational relationships.
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:33.579
Maybe you're part of a network or a fellowship.
00:37:33.579 --> 00:37:34.929
You've got those connections.
00:37:34.929 --> 00:37:36.429
Reach out to those leaders.
00:37:36.429 --> 00:37:38.739
Don't do it alone.
00:37:38.739 --> 00:37:41.559
And so thanks, Sam, for jumping on today.
00:37:41.559 --> 00:37:42.489
Appreciate you.
00:37:42.489 --> 00:37:47.438
I know you're a busy dude, and you got lots of things going on with the, you know, new role.
00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:48.759
You just moved.
00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:51.068
Lots of things. And here you are helping us out today.
00:37:51.070 --> 00:37:54.458
Appreciate it. And Michael, as always, thanks for jumping on.
00:37:54.460 --> 00:37:56.829
You've been a wonderful co-host for this series.
00:37:56.829 --> 00:38:11.295
I'm sure we'll do some other podcasts together, but just appreciate all the time and energy. And Jim Molloy, who's helped produce this whole thing behind the scenes. He's been on a couple of episodes, but he's been a part of everything as well. So thanks to all of you.
00:38:11.295 --> 00:38:14.679
And thanks everyone for listening.
00:38:14.679 --> 00:38:16.509
This has been our pleasure to do it.
00:38:16.510 --> 00:38:22.329
We've learned a lot in this process, of the Eight Objections to Church Multiplication.
00:38:22.329 --> 00:38:27.728
Out of all the podcast series or things we've done, this is the one we've got the most feedback on.
00:38:27.730 --> 00:38:29.858
So thanks so much for leaning in.
00:38:29.860 --> 00:38:30.699
We're here to help.
00:38:30.699 --> 00:38:39.137
If you want to know of some resources, if you want more information about something, we want to be part--. We are--.
00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:42.518
Our vision is to see every church a multiplying church.
00:38:42.519 --> 00:38:50.018
And so there's lots of ways that you can do that. Check out EveryChurch.ca for some resources that are there.
00:38:50.019 --> 00:38:54.068
And we'd love to help you and connect with you however we can.
00:38:54.070 --> 00:38:57.759
Thanks so much, everyone, for tuning in today and until next time.
00:38:57.760 --> 00:38:58.760
Have a great day.
00:38:59.739 --> 00:39:00.969
Well, thanks for listening today.
00:39:00.969 --> 00:39:03.509
We trust this conversation was encouraging.
00:39:03.510 --> 00:39:10.831
If you want more information on church multiplication resources or if you think we can help you in your church multiplication journey, reach out to us by email.
00:39:10.833 --> 00:39:16.119
MultiplyNetwork@paoc.org. Until next time.
