Mission Evolution with Gwilda Wiyaka Interviews - COLM HOLLAND - Jesus: The Myth Behind the Man

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Welcome to Mission Evolution Radio show with
Gwilda Weaka, bringing together today's leading experts
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to uncover ever deepening spiritual truths and
the latest scientific developments in support of the
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evolution of humankind. For more information
on Mission Evolution Radio with Gwildawaka, visit
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www dot Mission evolution dot org.
And now here's the host of Mission Evolution,
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Miss Gwildaaka. Hello, thanks for
joining us on Mission Evolution. We're
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coming to you on x On TV
and Simul TV from our broadcast studios in
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Saint Catherine's, Ontario, Canada,
bringing the latest evolutionary information from today's leading
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experts. This hour, we'll take
a closer look at Jesus, the myth
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behind the Man. A few stories
have been topic of much debate as much
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as the life of Jesus. There
are as many renditions of this story as
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there are churches, each declaring their
version to be the authentic one. Yet,
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with all the years of study,
and today with all our scientific advancements,
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have we found proof that Jesus ever
walked the earth in physical form.
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Joining us this hour from England to
consider this mystery is Column Holland. Column
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is the original publisher of the global
bestseller The Alchemist by Paulo Coello Paulo Quillo
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Sorry, and author of the Amazon
number one book The Secret of the Alchemist
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and editor of the book by the
late Geoff Roberts, The True Origins of
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Jesus, The Myth Behind the Man, with a forward by Dean Wilkinson his
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website column Holland dot Com column.
Thanks so much for joining us on Mission
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Evolution. Hi, Guido, It's
lovely to be with you again. It's
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always such a like you're working with
you. So has a weather up there
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in England? Cold? Why isn't
that surprise me? Rate? It hasn't
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changed since about February. But we'll
any any day now we should be seeing
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some warm weather. Thank you.
All right, So what prompted your interest
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in re examining the life of Jesus. I encountered Jesus when I was about
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eighteen years old, and that encounter
I had with Jesus, as I'll call
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him, revolutionized my life. And
you know who I am today. Who
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I was after that experience that I
had in my own bedroom was transformative completely
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and to the point that I've devoted
the best part of my life since trying
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to understand so first of all what
actually happened in that moment, but also
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trying to build a context around it, to see what shape and form in
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terms of practical outliving of that experience, what that actually looked like. And
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of course, in the process of
that, I've tried lots of different things,
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including various versions of Christianity that you've
just described. So here I am
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seventy years old, quite a few
years since I was eighteen, and I
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think that an I might be older. Am I any wise and maybe not?
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But one of the things I am
certain of is that I have a
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better understanding in my own mind of
what that experience was. But in addition
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to that, what it can actually
mean for anybody who's actually searching for a
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deeper understanding of Christianity in general.
This is a huge subject, Guild or
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I acknowledge that I apologize in advance. We're hardly going to scrape the surface.
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But there are some things that I
wanted to just broach on that I
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thought were really important for anybody who
is personally seeking to understand maybe their own
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experience of Jesus or trying to expand
their own understanding of Christianity. The pros
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and the cons and that sort of
thing. Well, hopefully we will get
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into it and do you're our best
in the town that we have so can't.
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Do you consider yourself a Christian?
Yeah? Yeah, but in my
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definition after going through all the others, right, So we've been through a
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lot years. This is one of
the problems with religion way beyond Christianity of
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course, in general, is that
it really depends who you speak to and
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who you ask to give you a
definition of what Christianity is. One of
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the peculiar, slightly peculiar aspects of
of the Christian faith is that, generally
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speaking, the majority of versions of
Christianity, as you so rightly said earlier,
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I believe that there is some truism
to their particular version. That I
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would even go so far as to
say many of them believe that there's an
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absolutism to their particular version. So
whether you speak to a very literal Bible
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believing evangelical on the one hand,
or whether you speak to a Greek Orthodox
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or a Russian Orthodox believer on the
other hand, and sort of everything in
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between, including Roman Catholicism, that
generally speaking, one of the peculiar aspects
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of Christianity is that each has to
believe, according to their orthodox version of
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their faith, that there's is the
right version of Christianity. And that's that's
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very unfortunate, really, isn't it. It is a bit how many wars,
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if we hit so far up to
date have we had over that very
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tough outside of a New Testament?
Is there any historical evidence that Jesus was
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ever in physical form? Do you
want the long answer all the short tones
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kind of going between, Okay,
I'll give you the short tones. At
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first, The answer is no,
No, there is no what we would
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call historical evidence for the physical existence
of a Jesus of Nazareth. There's lots
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of a sort of word of mouth
evidence, there's lots of legacy evidence,
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there's lots of fable evidence, there's
lots of stories repeated on down through the
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centuries of the existence of a Jesus
nat. But if you apply hardcore academic
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historic research to the existence of a
Jesus of Nazareth, and pretty much all
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all scholars, whether they're Christian faith
believers or not, this is one of
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the things that they do agree on. And if you go to a decent
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academic theological college of any Christian persuasion
sort of behind closed doors. You know,
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don't let the congregation know this,
but behind closed doors they will admit,
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I mean, they have to admit
if they're going to treat it from
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an academic point of view, that
historically we've got plenty of evidence for other
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people around those eras, even you
know, much earlier. We know,
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we've got Plato, we've got Aristotle, we can we've got plenty of historical
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documentation to prove that these very important
people existed, whether they're politicians, whether
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they're philosophers, whether they're authors,
accept Jesus and I know and so on.
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One of these sort of the challenges
that I really this is my main
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reason for coming on here today with
you, Gilder, is to say to
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everyone, really, is how prepared
would you be, given your devotion to
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being sort of academically and correct and
looking for real evidence in so many other
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areas of your life. I mean, if you approach your own health,
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if your own physical health, you
want to talk to somebody who's got a
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really good academic understanding of the human
body, especially before they start cutting you
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up and going in and you know, playing with things. But with our
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faith. This is what's sort of
ironic. Really with our faith, it's
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almost as if we don't really want
to go there in terms of academically,
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what evidence is there? Now?
What I want to also add to that
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challenge, you know, how academically
prepared are we to examine faith and the
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basis for our faith? But are
we prepared to accept that there's a possible
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other version of faith? And that
actually, moving academia aside and historical record
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aside, the real original, perhaps
intention of the story of the life of
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Jesus was always ever meant to be, just that it was actually meant to
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be a story. And when you
have an allegory or a metaphor, a
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metaphor and allegory a myth is part, you know, it's a new mythology.
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And when you examine other religions,
of which there are hundreds of course,
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from that era approximately two thousand years
ago plus, there are plenty of
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stories of lots of different religions or
permeating around, particularly the Middle East at
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that time. And the shocking thing
that you do discover if you are prepared
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to academically you have a good look
at the origins of those religions and what
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they believed, and who who was
promoting them, and which geographical regions they
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applied to, is that they they
probably nearly all of them, only ever
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thought of them a story. Interesting. So, how long after Jesus's purported
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death was the New Testament written?
I mean, I know a lot of
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the modern day faith is built on
the Bible, but how long after his
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death was that written? Okay,
So I was doing a bit of research
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earlier today and I found this fabulous
page on Wikipedia, which I will send
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to you quote I know, if
you're able to add notes after the show,
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but I've got this fabulous in Wikipedia. There's a page called the Development
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of the New Testament. I'm just
having a look at it now. So
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the earliest writings of the story of
Jesus what the Church calls its official canon.
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That's a church name for what we
now know as the Bible, particularly
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the New Testament, So the New
Testament Canon or the New Testament, but
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as we know it today was round
about the third version of documents that the
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Church was prepared to recognize. So
the first document really over the life of
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Jesus that the Church was prepared to
recognize in the first century Common Era BC.
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Common Era was in fact a document
by a theologian who was based in
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Rome called Marcion, And anybody who's
studied church history will know who is.
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And Marcion was the only story of
Jesus that was around one hundred and thirty
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one hundred and forty a d.
And if you then we've found some other
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documents have been discovered, other translations
have been discovered from the Greek around about
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one hundred and seventy two, getting
closer towards two hundred. Suddenly, out
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of nowhere we have these four stories
of Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke,
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and John. And what's interesting is
that before those gospels were written,
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there was another gospel that also talked
about the life of Jesus, which many
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people have heard, of course,
the Gospel of Thomas. But here's how
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it goes. Most academic theologians will
say, and many of these people are
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believers. These are not agnostics or
atheistses of believing Christian theologians will say that
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if you look closely at the Marsian
Bible, who he was later labeled by
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the early Church as a heretic,
he was sort of thrown out. But
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if you take a really good look
at it, and there's a very close
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similarity with the Gospel of Luke.
So many of them would say that the
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story of Luke, which is probably
one of many people's favorite stories of Luke,
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wasn't originated by this unknown person who
we think had something to do with
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Saint Paul. That maybe not,
but it was probably an edited version of
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the Marsian Gospel. So we eat
the first two real stories that cut along
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story short of an account of Jesus
was in the first century going into the
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second century, and they went neither
of them with Mark, Matthew, Mark,
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Luke or John. They were the
Gospel of Marcian and the Gospel of
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Thomas. So so I'm to understand
you to say that the even the first
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one, if we look at it
this way, it was a good what
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hundred years after a lot of information
gets torked in a hundred years, doesn't
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Yeah, Well, I don't know
about you, but I found information can
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change in half an hour. As
you know, we're going to have to
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continue with this discussion on the other
side of a station break column and I
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will return shortly, So don't you
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at work. Hello again, this is
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Mission Evolution, Mission Evolution dot org. With this this hour discussing different perspectives
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on Jesus is column Holland his website
column Holland dot Com column. We were
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talking about how the first writings about
Jesus happened at least one hundred years after
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his death. Do the historical facts
of the life of Jesus in the four
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Gospels of the New Testament agree with
it with each other? Um, yeah,
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great question. I'm going to give
you the short answer straightaway. No,
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No, they don't. And this
is a real conundrum for lots of
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committed Christians of all persuasions. So
when you start laying out the gospel's side
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by side, what you soon discover
is that there are certainly three versions of
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the story of the life of Jesus. The Gospel of Saint John, of
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course, isn't really what they call
a synoptic gospel. In other words,
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it's not trying to say this is
what Jesus did and this is where he
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went, and so it's not about
his life. That's more of a spiritual
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gospel in the sense of it,
in a many ways more prophetic gospel as
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well. So, yeah, they
disagree with each other even in their own
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versions. And one of the places
that they massively disagree, believe it or
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not, is around the virgin birth. So the virgin birth, certainly in
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my experience of Orthodox Christianity, is
pretty much the central tenet of the Christian
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faith. I mean I can quote
or kind of mainstream theologians of all persuasions
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who would say, and including in
the Bible itself, that if if Jesus
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wasn't born of a virgin directly you
know, from God then and she she
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who was she wasn't he wasn't conceived
through Mary, you know, through through
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normal consummation, then our faith,
it says, is in vain. In
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other words, we don't really have
a Christian faith. And rather than getting
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to a massive explanation of what the
I mean, I encourage people to do
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what I do. Just read the
first parts of Matthew and Luke in particular,
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and compare them. You know,
whether we've got wise men or we
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don't have wise men, Whether whether
Jesus went off to Egypt after he was
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born or he didn't go off to
Egypt after he was born, I mean,
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they just vary enormously. And that
also you know, from from for
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somebody who has been raised, or
has been tutored, or has been preached
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that to believe in Jesus properly,
our faith has to be based on the
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fact that he was genuinely born,
he was born in a place called Bethlehem,
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and that he was born of a
virgin, and that he was actually
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God coming to earthly. That that's
the whole premise of the fact. That
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there is no historical evidence for that. Of course it can be ignored.
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I mean you can say, well, you do these people knew something the
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historians didn't know at the time,
and that's fine. But I actually what
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I want to spend a bit more
time, if I may, in our
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talked day conversation today, is to
say that at the time, both even
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when I'm not saying that Luke wasn't
telling the truth and I'm not saying that
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Matthew wasn't trying to say something really
important, they all the gospel writers were
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trying to say something really really important. And what they were trying to say
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is that there is a reality within
the human experience of an experience of God
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and what they know their own definitions
of God at the time. But more
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so than that, there is this
persona if you like, that is also
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a reality, and that person is
Jesus, the persona of Jesus, and
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what they were really doing. And
this is going to jump us several centuries
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nearly two thousand years to a chap
called Professor Carl Jung. But what they
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know, he's not alone in many
other theologians of philosophers who say that the
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human psyche has a natural tendency to
imagine God and to want there to be
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a God, and that there is
a particular experience of God and it comes,
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in the case of Christianity, in
a person a persona who they called
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Jesus. Jesus. So this is
a Jesus that is a mythological persona,
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and he appears, you know,
in the Christian myth and the Christian story.
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But the same kind of persona appears
in multiple other mythologies and stories.
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I mean, he's you know,
they're not not alone in this. Well,
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what was what was interesting is the
early church leaders exclude many of the
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writings from their early versions of the
New Testament. Even so, in addition
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to nobody agreeing we have censorship,
what was the purpose behind those exclusions?
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Um, well, we'd have to
ask them. I think I can.
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I can hypothesize a bit about why
they possibly did. There were hundreds of
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versions of the story of Jesus at
in those early days, those first two
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centuries, and the Church, for
reasons of more than I think they sincerely
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wanted there to be a single version
or you know, if there's going to
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be a Jesus story, can we
please agree that it's this one, you
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know, it's not all of these, and believe it or not. There
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was a conference, you know,
in the fourth century, there was a
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conference in Rome of all the bishops
at the time, and you know,
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they had to come to some kind
of conclusion about which version of the Jesus
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story. So what we see in
the New Testament is ultimately this is the
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one that they were all prepared to
support, which just meant that anybody who's
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supported different versions, of which there
were several. There was a whole group
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of Christians at the time who we
now call the Gnostics, who held a
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very different radical view of the of
the New Testament and its relationship to the
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Old Testament. They are worth mentioned. Let me just mention that group that
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we now call the Gnostics. So
there was a group, and that these
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also then later were known as the
Scenes and the scenes were the people who
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wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, which
in nineteen forty seven were discovered. And
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any anybody who's a Christian who who
not researched the existence of the Dead Sea
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Scrolls, again, I'd recommend it, because these were people writing these were
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a branch of an ancient Judaic tradition
who also in many ways regarded themselves as
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Christians and would talk about Jesus as
well. Can I interrupt and ask you
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how long after his death were those
written? But well, the Dead Sea
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Scrolls were being written at the time
supposedly when Jesus existed. Ah. Interesting,
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Okay, so there's not much delay
there at all. So there's a
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coexisting version of a faith that is
christian like at the time of the supposed
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existence of Jesus. And so another
quick question I have for you is,
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you know, they think where there's
smoke, there's fire. So about this
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time in history, all of a
sudden, there's all these different renditions of
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Christ. What was going on do
you think, if indeed this is you
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know, a myth or an allegory, what do you think was going on
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that prompted it all to happen at
that point? Okay? I blame a
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guy called Zarathusta. So Zarathustro.
I'm sure many of your listeners have heard
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of Zarathustra. So Zarathustra was a
prophet that could go that hit. Many
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scholars have gotten dated back to two
thousand years before the supposed existence of Jesus,
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going back much later. So just
for the sake of argument, let's
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let's date him two thousand years before. He was sort of the father of
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many of the religious traditions that ended
up happening around, as you said,
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around the time that that supposedly Jesus
existed, well, certainly at the beginnings
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of Christianity. And let me just
read you this little quote. This was
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This was a Greek philosopher, sorry, Roman philosopher called Celsus, who was
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writing at the same time as the
New Testament was written. It's changed into
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modern English so we can understand it. But what he said is that many
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of the nations of the world hold
doctrines. This is at his time,
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so he's writing at the time that
the New Testament was written, many of
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the nations of the world hold doctrines
like those espoused by Christians. So he
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was saying, you know, I've
looked at Christianity, and I just want
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to tell you this, so that
there is teachings of Homer. There are
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teachings from the druids of Gaul.
I mean, he knew about all of
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these different faiths. There are doctrines
of Christianity and Judaism, Linus Massius,
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Orpheus, Zoroaster who Zoroist, who
was Zarathusta, the Persian Pythagoras, all
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of these also believe many similar doctrines
to that of Christianity. In other words,
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even and he mentions two. They
even also fabricated in his words,
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to use his words, the story
of the virgin birth. So many of
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those religions also had of a virgin
birth. So it was in a way
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got to answer you a question,
really to give you a proper answer.
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At that time, certainly the world
was different and religion wasn't as we see
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it today. Religion was really part
of life. It was part of people,
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and people would switch and change religions
based on who they were being invaded
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by. Chaptered a lot. Who
you know, who they who the latest
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fashion was, who had the most
power in their society at the time.
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And one of the things that Marcian
did, who I mentioned earlier, was
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he made a complete break between what
he believed Christianity should be and Judaism.
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So he said this, and this
is really radical, and this is sort
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of where the Gnostics sat as well. So this is a whole branch of
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Christianity that was cut off, that
was severed from and you know, doesn't
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exist in most of our knowledge today, but it was very strong at the
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time. Which is this that the
God of Jesus, the God that Jesus
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spoke about, as reported in much
of the New Testament, was actually not
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Yahweh Yahweh. The God of the
Old Testament was what they called a local
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god. In other words, there
were there was a hierarchy of gods,
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and that the God that Jesus was
referring to was an omniscient, omnipresent god
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whose main additional love. In other
words, he understood what evil was,
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but he forgave evil because he could. He was standing at a much heart.
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You know, this god wasn't even
really he, but this God had
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the ability to see all things,
know all things, and in the great
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scheme of things, wasn't about to
wreak vengeance on people. He wasn't going
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to smite people. The God of
the Old Testament, you did a lot
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of smiting and did a lot of
revenging, and you know, counted the
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dead, you know, as a
result of his Yahweh's action. So m
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for the early Gnostics and Marcion and
some others there were there was a different
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version of God even and that that's
the God of the New Testament. It's
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some some even, I've talked to
modern theologians on this topic. Some even
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now sort of relent the fact that
the Church of constant time linked the New
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Testament and the Old Testament and the
reason they did. Yeah, I'm sorry,
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just for our audience. The Old
Testament, did it come from the
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Jewish? Jewish judition? Yeah,
the Old Testament that we have in the
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Bible now is pretty much the old
Yeah, the Jewish scriptures a certain number.
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You know, it's not the entire
Torah, but you know it's selected,
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but again selected by the early Christian
fathers. Well, we're going we're
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going to have to take a take
a break. Um, that's probably a
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pretty good place to break, so
that we can pick it up here on
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the other side. But on the
other side, I would like to get
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deeper into. Okay, so they
put together two different gods basically, and
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what do we have now? Okay? So Colum and I will be back
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to continue our discussion. You stay
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dot c a today. Hi there,
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00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:07.119
this is mission evolution, Mission evolution. Do our guess is? Sour Is
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00:34:07.159 --> 00:34:15.440
Calum Holland his website Colum Holland dot
com. Colum There's Um. It's been
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said that the story of Jesus actually
a myth or an allegory portraying astrological events.
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Are you familiar with that concept?
I am, and it is another
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subject of which I'm not an expert. So I'm not personally a student of
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astrology, but I know enough to
be able to say that if you if
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you do want to go down that
route and you want to have a look
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at that, there are some interesting
references within astrology, and these are also
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in the Bible. The main one, the big one, which a lot
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of people know, is that the
symbol for Jesus, of course, was
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the fish, and that astrologers believe
that we go we go through astrological epochs,
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and that these are big chunks of
time, you know, a thousand
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odd years whatever, and that Jesus
was around two thousand years ago at the
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time when we were going through a
transition from Pisces, the epoch of Pisces
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into the epoch of Aquarius, and
that he was a harbinger, if you
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like, of that shift between the
one another. So again I'm not an
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expert on it, but it's not
something I personally studied in a great detail,
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so I wouldn't start venturing too far
down that road. But yes,
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so there definitely is one of the
things that I do also want to mention
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if I may, and that is
we haven't mentioned two other elephants in the
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room from a religious point of view. One is Hinduism and one is Buddhism.
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So yes, I had those on
the list. Do tell us how
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those relate. So welcome to my
Hindu and Buddhist friends. So here I
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am. You know, I self
label self identify as a Christian, but
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I have a huge respect and take
and learn from you know, wherever I
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can, where I feel there is
truth. One of the slightly interesting conversations
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I had once with somebody, a
Hindu friend of mine, actually was was
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this, you know, why,
for example, has Christianity made such little
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impact where Hinduism already existed, Apart
from the cultural strength of the you know,
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already embedded religious of Hinda. In
other parts of the world, Christianity,
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you know, steamrollered its way through
but not not in Hindus. And
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he came back quite quite quite succinctly, and he said, we've already got
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Jesus. We don't need him.
Well, we don't need a new one
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because we've already got one. And
I said really, And he said yeah,
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Chrishna, And I said yeah,
but Christiana's Christian and Jesus is Jesus.
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He said, well, we've got
our own mythology which has got you
383
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know, so many similarities with Jesus. And I said, what kind of
384
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similarities And he said, well,
he's just a few. I've made a
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note of them. According to our
mythology and Hinduism, Christna was a son
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of God. Jesus was supposedly a
son of God. They both had adopted
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fathers. And guess what. They
were both carpenters. They were both supposedly
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of some royal descent, you know, in their own kingdom. True.
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And guess what. In the both
stories there are wise men, shepherds,
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and a star that occurs at the
time of their birth. What a coincidence.
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They both spend time in the wilderness. They're both associated with some form
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of resurrection. They performed miracles and
healed lepers, they both raised it dead,
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both claimed a miraculous birth, they
both taught forgiveness, and they both
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spent time in their mythological hell.
So I said, well, that's fine.
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He said yeah. It is just
one one catch though, and that
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is that the mythology of Christiana was
around several hundred years before the mythology of
397
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Jesus. Interesting, just to say
a couple of hundred years. I thought
398
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it would have been longer than that
in a defined form. Again, because
399
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various forms of Hinduism, various mythologies
coming together, but they were certainly all
400
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of those that I've just mentioned.
You could pinpoint somewhere in Hinduism at least
401
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two or three hundred years before the
existence suppose existence Christs. And then so
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that's my Hindu friends. But now
let's just have a quick chat to our
403
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Buddhist friends. Sadly he's now passed, but I did make a friendship with
404
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a guy who was one of the
world's leading sanscrit scholars. In other words,
405
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he was a translator of ancient Sanscript
and he was actually Danish. He
406
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was an academic, He was a
lectured at the university in Denmark, and
407
00:39:31.480 --> 00:39:36.639
he had no religious persuasion at all. In any way, he was just
408
00:39:36.760 --> 00:39:45.119
fascinated with ancient Indian texts which were
very closely aligned to Buddhism, of course,
409
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:50.840
and he would translate them. And
he said he was asked by a
410
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:59.400
monastery to translate some newly discovered but
really old texts of some relatively well known
411
00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:02.000
Buddhist writings, and he said he
would. He would have a look at
412
00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:05.960
them. And as he began to
translate them, he said, there was
413
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:12.199
a strange familiarity. And he said, I'm not but he couldn't pinpoint him.
414
00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:16.880
Why do he does this text feel
really familiar in passages within the text
415
00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:21.079
that he felt, you know,
I'm sure I've read this before, but
416
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:25.480
I've not read it in any Buddhist
texts before. But I've read this anyway.
417
00:40:25.639 --> 00:40:30.000
Cut along story short. He decided
to go to the Bible, to
418
00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:36.599
the New Testament, and he said, sure enough, it was the last
419
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:42.199
place I ever expected to find them. Martha, Mary, the Raising of
420
00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:47.440
Lazarus, the Sea of Galilee,
the Fisherman. He said, it was
421
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:53.960
all there, and this predated by
Gain several centuries before Christ. So it
422
00:40:54.119 --> 00:41:01.480
really got him and he actually went
and learned to read original Greek, and
423
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:10.159
he lectured to Christian theologians in Denmark
who were holding a conference on a subject
424
00:41:10.199 --> 00:41:16.440
called Q. Now that the word
Q in German means source. And there
425
00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:24.480
is this theological belief within Orthodox Christianity, which is that the lots of the
426
00:41:24.639 --> 00:41:30.639
sayings of Jesus are common across all
the gospels. So the one thing the
427
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:36.920
gospels do agree on is love your
enemies, do good to those who hurt
428
00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:43.159
you, all what we call the
beatitudes pretty much, both in Matthew and
429
00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:52.280
Luke in particular, and there's strong
theological evidence that these particular saints came from
430
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:57.159
another source, from an what they
call Q, an original source. My
431
00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:00.679
friend Christian Lintner, Professor Christian Lintner, he went the whole hog and he
432
00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:04.320
said, yeah, I'll tell you
where they came from. That was going
433
00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:07.800
to be my next question. Of
course, they came from Buddhism. It's
434
00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:10.679
not original to Christianity. And he
said, there's no harm in that.
435
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:15.800
He said, I'm not. It
doesn't diminish them in any ways. And
436
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:21.559
this brings me to my main point
that when we ask these questions, Guilder,
437
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:29.480
when we are prepared to be open
minded and to examine origins of Christianity,
438
00:42:29.599 --> 00:42:32.639
the sources of Christianity, the real
roots of the New Testament, and
439
00:42:32.679 --> 00:42:39.480
so on. Then we are potentially
on the verge of something which I think
440
00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:46.760
is more meaningful and can be more
transformative than even what most of us believe
441
00:42:46.840 --> 00:42:51.960
is orthodox Christianity. And I'm going
to tell you a little story that most
442
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:55.360
people don't know, even though there
was a movie made about it, and
443
00:42:55.480 --> 00:43:02.800
that is the very famous Reverend Billy
Graham, who is well known to all
444
00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:08.159
the people in the world of the
Southern Baptist world, most of whom take
445
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:14.679
the Bible absolutely literally. When he
went to theological college during a period of
446
00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:17.760
time he started to discover all the
things that I've just been talking about.
447
00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:27.880
Interesting he had good academic Bible historians
and Bible theologians who were prepared to be
448
00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:30.559
honest and say, you know,
academically, this is. And he had
449
00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:37.440
quite a crisis of faith. And
he used to work with another preacher who
450
00:43:37.480 --> 00:43:40.119
had the same crisis of faith about
the same time, and that particular preacher
451
00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:45.920
just fell away. He said,
I just can't preach the literal version of
452
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:51.920
Christianity anymore. And Billy Graham sat
down and I've got a great little addition
453
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:54.800
to this story. He sat down
with a couple of people who helped him
454
00:43:54.880 --> 00:44:00.159
significantly come to turn. And what
he decided was this that everything that I've
455
00:44:00.199 --> 00:44:08.000
just been talking about may be true, But does it change faith? Does
456
00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:15.880
it change belief? Does it change
the workings of the human psyche when it
457
00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:22.199
comes to the process of personal transformation? And if anybody preached personal transformation,
458
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:28.599
it was doctor Billian Great. His
version of being born again wasn't just some
459
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:32.519
wishy washy you know, I might
start thinking about Jesus occasionally. No,
460
00:44:32.519 --> 00:44:37.159
no, no, no, no, I mean Billy Graham's version of Christianity
461
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:45.199
was a real evidential transformation of a
life, of somebody's life. So do
462
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:52.320
you believe Do you believe that by
trying to take it literally or having these
463
00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:54.840
fairly I don't want to say dogmatic, but you get the idea locked down
464
00:44:55.599 --> 00:45:00.800
viewpoints of it being a physical event
and etcetera, etceter Do you think we're
465
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:07.360
throwing out the baby with the bathwater
and that there's a lot of transformational information
466
00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:09.960
that we're losing when we try to
think of it as a physical or a
467
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:17.159
literal event. So the answer to
that is both yes and no. So
468
00:45:17.239 --> 00:45:24.039
let me cover the yes and the
no. So yes if and I'm going
469
00:45:24.079 --> 00:45:29.559
to have to call him Professor Carl
Young. I'm sorry. A lot of
470
00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:35.519
people don't don't particularly adhere to his
philosophy on faith, but I am going
471
00:45:35.519 --> 00:45:38.519
to bring because he just helps explain
a few things. Not that I'm an
472
00:45:38.559 --> 00:45:42.920
one hundred percent supporter of what he
taught, by the way, but I
473
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:46.760
would say that he One of the
great things that I think Carl Young identified
474
00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:54.480
was this that the human psyche has
the ability to not only create story and
475
00:45:54.599 --> 00:46:01.360
mythology, but then to go another
step further, has the ability to adopt
476
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:10.400
it as if it is real,
and that's common across all human the human
477
00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:16.079
speechies. It's irrelevant what culture they're
from. In other words, there comes
478
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:22.760
a point when we don't question what
he would call the mythology or the stories
479
00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:30.760
that we believe, we accept them
and whether they're I don't know. I
480
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:38.760
guess in earlier days before the world
of science and the Reformation and that whole
481
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:46.039
period four hundred odd years ago when
academia came up, came up out of
482
00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:53.679
learning and universities and so on,
continuation of Greek and Roman learning. It
483
00:46:53.960 --> 00:47:00.199
was that the world was quite happy. Humans in general were quite happy to
484
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:07.400
believe the stories they were told,
and they were prepared to base their lives
485
00:47:07.400 --> 00:47:13.440
on them. They were prepared to
make decisions, a base certain rules,
486
00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:17.920
live their life in a particular way
based on their belief in those stories.
487
00:47:19.480 --> 00:47:23.199
Now, what I will say is
is that Carl Young would say that actually
488
00:47:23.199 --> 00:47:29.159
that is promised possibly a really good
thing for you know, mental health,
489
00:47:29.239 --> 00:47:34.960
for the human mind to actually believe
those things and to follow those things at
490
00:47:35.000 --> 00:47:39.599
least gives us some stability, which
is really being challenged by our information rich
491
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:45.039
world right now, isn't it so? So a Christian who is prepared to
492
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:50.719
accept the literal version of the New
Testament and to base their life on it,
493
00:47:51.280 --> 00:47:57.519
without doubts, without questioning, that's
if a Carl Young would say,
494
00:47:57.639 --> 00:48:02.800
that is the psyche doing its job, and that's fine. As when it
495
00:48:04.199 --> 00:48:07.880
becomes not fine. In two ways
it becomes not fine. One is this
496
00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:13.039
is for the individual. By the
way that it's not good is when you
497
00:48:13.039 --> 00:48:19.360
could no longer do that in all
good intellectual conscience. In other words,
498
00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:25.719
when you begin to find there is
a gap between your intellectual life and your
499
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:31.800
faith life, and we have a
problem. We're to have an internal problem
500
00:48:31.480 --> 00:48:36.239
is we're going to have to pick
up on that thread on the other side
501
00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:39.519
of an other station break. So
please stay with us as Calumn and I
502
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:45.960
will continue to explore the history of
Jesus. This is Mission Evolution www.
503
00:48:45.119 --> 00:48:59.960
Dot Mission evolution dot org. Do
you have a product or service you'd like
504
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:05.360
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505
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506
00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:15.960
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507
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508
00:49:21.519 --> 00:49:27.400
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509
00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:31.480
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510
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511
00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:40.639
us at MPO Admission evolution dot org
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512
00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:45.880
so don't miss out on this great
opportunity. Email info Atmission evolution dot org.
513
00:49:45.960 --> 00:50:01.119
Today, Welcome back. This is
Evolution, Mission Evolution dot org.
514
00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:07.880
This hour, our expert yest Is
Calum holland his website Calum Harland dot com.
515
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:14.440
Calum was are there? Um?
Do have we covered the mystery religions
516
00:50:14.480 --> 00:50:20.000
and what those are? Um?
No, we haven't really, although I
517
00:50:20.039 --> 00:50:23.800
did mention them briefly. Yeah,
in that last session I did say that
518
00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:30.400
there were various Um. Remember Celsius
sells Us at the time said there are
519
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:34.480
there are all. Zarathusta was one
of the key ones, and as the
520
00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:40.440
Mithra's religion. Um, they were
competing religions at the time of Jesus for
521
00:50:40.519 --> 00:50:45.960
sure. Just about Zarathustra, for
example, I just read you this quickly.
522
00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:54.199
Um, this is quite an expert
guy. Zarathustra is probably the most
523
00:50:54.280 --> 00:51:00.000
important person recorded in the history of
religion bar none. He was the first
524
00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:05.679
man to promulgate a divinely revealed religion. Now, at the time of christ
525
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:14.320
Zarathustraanism was still really strong. It
was probably pre Christianity, one of the
526
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:22.280
top religions of the time. And
what he taught influenced the religions of Judaism.
527
00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:30.320
He influenced Christianity, even influenced Methriism, Islam, Northern Buddhism and so
528
00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:38.119
on. Even the Pagan Nordic religion. So the least talked about, least
529
00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:46.480
actually taught religion of that era we
don't we don't even know about today.
530
00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:52.679
It's just not covered. So it
was had a much wider and greater influence
531
00:51:52.719 --> 00:51:59.800
than Christianity at the time. And
so when you dig into his what he
532
00:52:00.000 --> 00:52:05.159
taught, and also the other faiths
that were influenced by him, the mystery
533
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:12.480
religions in particular, what you discover
is that they all bear many of the
534
00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:15.800
same characteristics. So a lot of
the experiences of Jesus, a lot of
535
00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:22.360
the teachings of Jesus are mirrored all
in all of those who a death,
536
00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:29.400
a violent death, of resurrection,
of virgin birth, teaching and healing,
537
00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:35.119
miracles, all of the things I
mentioned earlier. You know, they're repeated
538
00:52:35.119 --> 00:52:43.440
throughout many of these It just so
happens in our culture. And again this
539
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:47.760
has got historical basis to it.
So just a quick, a quick little
540
00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:53.039
bit history of Christianity after Jesus and
what how why it's important to almost sort
541
00:52:53.039 --> 00:53:00.880
of stand back retrospectively and look back
down through the centuries to when Jesus supposedly
542
00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:07.239
existed, but certainly when the beginnings
of Christianity existed certain things and happened.
543
00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:15.119
That meant that you and I in
our cultures are surrounded predominantly with Christian belief.
544
00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:22.719
And that is mostly because of two
groups of people, the Hellenistic Jews,
545
00:53:22.360 --> 00:53:27.440
who were Jews that were influenced by
the Greek culture, but also the
546
00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:35.880
Roman Empire. We cannot, we
cannot. We wouldn't have the Christianity that
547
00:53:36.760 --> 00:53:39.599
people believed today if it hadn't been
for the Roman Empire. When the Roman
548
00:53:39.639 --> 00:53:45.239
Empire decided which I won't go into, to adopt Christianity as the official religion
549
00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:54.199
and then continue to conquer vast swathes
of the Mediterranean and Northern Europe. You
550
00:53:54.239 --> 00:54:00.840
know, that was really the way
that the our faith was spread with the
551
00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:06.440
sword. Okay said there were Anglo
Saxons in Britain and in Northern Europe as
552
00:54:06.480 --> 00:54:14.880
well who were Christians, But the
Roman version of Christianity was implanted by predominantly
553
00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:22.519
invasion. And isn't isn't that ironic
teachings? So we can't ignore that.
554
00:54:22.599 --> 00:54:28.320
And then if you follow through,
so the Roman Church in particular as far
555
00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:32.920
as Britain and America are concerned,
that was the big dominant faith until the
556
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:37.880
Reform at the period of the Reformation
in the sixteenth century in Britain and Europe,
557
00:54:38.239 --> 00:54:46.159
and then the exodus of the Pilgrim
Fathers from Europe and Britain. Just
558
00:54:46.239 --> 00:54:50.400
down the road from where I lived, Plymouth, they got on their their
559
00:54:50.440 --> 00:54:53.559
ships and set off for the New
World, and where they said, well,
560
00:54:53.599 --> 00:54:59.400
we're not going to be bound any
longer by the Roman faith. We're
561
00:54:59.400 --> 00:55:02.719
going We've got our own reformed faith
and we're going to And that's what happened
562
00:55:02.719 --> 00:55:09.000
in the US. So that became
the dominant faith version of Christianity. So
563
00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:15.119
our version of Christianity that culturally we've
we've grown up in or we've converted to,
564
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:24.320
has got historical roots, so to
be to not know all of that
565
00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:31.039
sitting in you know, the twenty
first century, labeling oneself as a Christian
566
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:39.079
is really to just deny your heritage, to deny. So that's okay.
567
00:55:39.920 --> 00:55:43.639
We can go to church on Sunday, we can read our Bible, we
568
00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:46.920
can listen to to great preachers and
all, and that's all fine, as
569
00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:51.199
long as we're prepared to know.
Car Young wou say, as long as
570
00:55:51.199 --> 00:55:57.880
you're prepared to throw in your entire
psyche with that, and that's you know,
571
00:55:58.039 --> 00:56:04.760
generally speaking, can lead to real
benefit for your mental well being or
572
00:56:04.760 --> 00:56:09.559
your psychic well being. The problem
begins to happen when, as I said
573
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:13.960
in the end of our our session, when we begin to doubt that,
574
00:56:14.679 --> 00:56:21.119
so at the point that we are
intellect begins to question, we do have
575
00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:23.599
a choice. The choice Billy Graham
made was he said, the Christian myth
576
00:56:24.760 --> 00:56:29.360
is so powerful that I'm not going
to call it a myth. I'm going
577
00:56:29.400 --> 00:56:34.719
to teach it as if it's that
it was, it's literally true, and
578
00:56:35.079 --> 00:56:37.679
I think there's parent and he was
right. I mean, he single handedly
579
00:56:38.840 --> 00:56:45.719
pretty much established the evangelical Christian faith
as we know in the USA today here
580
00:56:45.719 --> 00:56:49.199
and a few other guys, and
their legacy, you know, is what
581
00:56:49.239 --> 00:56:55.360
we see now in so many parts
of the US completely. And that's fine.
582
00:56:55.639 --> 00:57:01.199
But what Cale Young would say,
as well as saying that's you know,
583
00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:07.400
that's fine for the individual, there
is also a chance that that individual
584
00:57:07.480 --> 00:57:14.800
is missing out on something. And
what that potentially the individual is missing out
585
00:57:14.840 --> 00:57:24.079
on is actually a deeper transformational experience. And my problem was, at the
586
00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:30.760
age of eighteen, I genuinely had
a really mystical, deep, transformational experience
587
00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:36.480
of Jesus. It didn't seem to
have anything to do with the Bible.
588
00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:39.840
He was as real as I'm talking
to you, as far as my psyche
589
00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:47.320
was concerned. The sense, the
overwhelming sense of love and unconditional love made
590
00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:54.360
me a different person. And I
discovered myself and I threw myself wholeheartedly into
591
00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:59.079
the Christian place. The problem I
had over the years and decades, I'm
592
00:57:59.119 --> 00:58:04.280
talking decade of throwing myself or hrstily
into that. And there may be listeners,
593
00:58:04.280 --> 00:58:07.599
you know, out there right now
hearing me again saying yeah, I'm
594
00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:15.039
kind of with you here on this
column, which was that my inner experience
595
00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:23.360
of Jesus gradually and gradually and gradually
distanced itself from the Christianity that I was
596
00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:29.920
being taught and that I was seeing
represented in all different versions of the Church.
597
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:35.920
So my problem was not with Jesus. The problem I was experiencing was
598
00:58:35.960 --> 00:58:43.000
with the outward manifestation as represented by
his Church in all its various forms,
599
00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:47.880
which I won't go into because it's
going to vary significantly. You know,
600
00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:52.960
it's a personal thing that you know, that gap between my experience with accept
601
00:58:53.000 --> 00:59:01.159
this that still I was able to
hold onto an experience of Jesus that only
602
00:59:01.239 --> 00:59:07.079
made sense once I began to recall
Young, and that might in my book
603
00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:09.280
The Secret of the Alchemist. That's
that's really what I'm talking about, that
604
00:59:09.639 --> 00:59:16.159
which was again re expressed in recent
times in the book The Alchemist by Paolo
605
00:59:16.239 --> 00:59:27.199
Kalo, which sorry just in a
nutshell, which is that our experience of
606
00:59:27.400 --> 00:59:36.159
Christ Jesus is something which car Young
called the realization of the self. That
607
00:59:36.199 --> 00:59:40.159
there is what he called archetypes in
the psyche, and that one of those
608
00:59:40.280 --> 00:59:47.920
archetypes is represented in the persona of
Jesus. And one of the reasons Carl
609
00:59:47.960 --> 00:59:53.199
Young was so keen to try and
explain this to Christians was this. He
610
00:59:53.199 --> 00:59:59.800
said, you have a very very
very powerful myth. The myth of Jesus
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is extremely transformative, but potentially you're
going to miss out on its real transformational
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power. And it's only when I
began to realize that Saint Paul and others
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did actually talk about this, and
this is another reason why the Christian myth
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is so strong, is when he
began to say, you know, it's
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the Christ within, it's Jesus in
you, said, Saint Paul, who
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is the hope of glory. In
other words, there is an inner ability
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of the psyche, whether it's whether
it's experiences this in the persona of Jesus,
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or whether it experiences it in the
persona of Christna, or whether it
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experiences it in the persona of Buddha. Car you would say, you know,
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some have got more value than others. You know, I'm not going
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to say which, but he would
say some have got more value than others
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to particular individuals. But essentially,
what's your discovery when you discover Jesus is
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the divine within and that Jesus is
a persona of the divine within, and
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that's what the transformation is. So
it took me. I hope it doesn't
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01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:22.000
take other people as long as it
took me a long time for that penny
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to drop. It's that it's that
time in the program when I have to
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ask you what is your mission?
My mission is that everybody can find the
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divine within. And whatever I can
do to help people discover that, then
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I feel like fulfill my mission.
It's a very worthy mission when when we're
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01:01:45.760 --> 01:01:52.280
looking, you know, at the
evidence that indicates that Jesus was never alive
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physically. Yet from what you're saying, each one of us is can be
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01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:02.920
the life of Christ because it comes
from within. Is that an accurate summary
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01:02:04.000 --> 01:02:06.960
of what we were saying here.
Yes, that's the power of the mythology
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01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:15.079
of Jesus. Yes, absolutely that
the experiences supposed experience of Jesus on earth
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can also be in our experiences within
our own psyche. The death and the
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01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:29.440
Resurrection is by far the best example. So there is an inner death of
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01:02:29.480 --> 01:02:35.559
the ego and a resurrection that comes
out of the unconscious, which is the
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01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:40.679
self. So the death of the
ego a rebirth of the coming together of
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01:02:42.079 --> 01:02:46.079
the consciousness and unconscious, which is
the birth of the self. That's one
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01:02:46.119 --> 01:02:52.320
of the one of the reasons why
Christianity is so powerful, because it encapsulates
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01:02:52.360 --> 01:02:59.239
that inner truth. And the reason
why I call it the inner truth is
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01:02:59.280 --> 01:03:05.880
that the same experience is also possible
to anybody believing in the Hindu faith or
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01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:10.360
the Buddhist faith, or Judaism,
and lots of other faiths as well.
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01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:17.519
So it's not unique Christianity, except
Christianity is culturally the background that we've grown
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01:03:17.599 --> 01:03:21.960
up in, so it makes more
sense to us. We're about out of
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01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.800
time. But do you think that
the story of the life of Christ is
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01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:31.599
actually a mapping of our process as
we come into this self realization. Yeah.
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01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:37.400
Koyang called it individuation, which he
said the psyche is going to do
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01:03:37.519 --> 01:03:40.119
anyway, whether you join in with
it or you don't join any with it.
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01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:45.760
The psyche wants to reach a point
of what he called wholeness. And
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01:03:46.119 --> 01:03:52.880
if it's one thing that we all
religion and people with no religion who want
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01:03:53.960 --> 01:04:01.239
to see the full benefit of self
realization, as Young called it, then
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01:04:01.440 --> 01:04:08.199
it has to be wholeness, beautiful
pursuit of wholeness. Yes, unfortunately we
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01:04:08.239 --> 01:04:10.760
are out of time. Column,
thank you so much for coming on.
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01:04:10.760 --> 01:04:15.360
The show's been a real pleasure.
Our guest is Our has been publisher,
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01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:19.159
editor and author Column Holland. We've
been discussing the book by the late Geoff
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01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:24.679
Roberts, The Origins of Jesus,
The Myth behind the Man. Column's website
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01:04:24.880 --> 01:04:29.800
Column Holland dot com. This has
been Mission Evolution with Guildaweeka. For more
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01:04:29.840 --> 01:04:34.679
information or to enjoy past archived episodes, visit www dot Mission evolution dot org.
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01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:39.639
Please be sure to join us right
here next time as this mission will
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01:04:39.679 --> 01:04:43.719
continue bringing information and resources to evolving
world