EdTech Adventures: Designing Tactile Tech with Dan Klitsner
[00:00:00] Charlotte Cheng: Welcome to EdTech Adventures. Join us as we explore the role of technology, STEM, and creative play in education. With expert guests, we'll discover how learning is always an adventure. Bop it! Twist it! Pull it! From the 90s and beyond, these sounds have been such an integral part of people's childhood. Dan Klitsner, the inventor of Bop It, and so much more, is with us today.
We'll be exploring how he has leveraged tactile technology to transform play experiences for kids. We'll also explore how we can apply what he's learned to educational opportunities as well. Dan Klitsner is an award-winning industrial designer specializing in concept ideation focused primarily on toy invention.
He has licensed hundreds of concepts including the mega hits, Bop It, Perplexus, and Simon Air. Before specializing in toys, Dan designed many well known bottles, such as Woodford Reserve, Hornitos Tequila, and the Clorox Toilet Cleaner bottle. Recently, Dan and his wife, Alicia have founded Bop It For Good to support organizations that can benefit the most from Bop It's unique popularity and accessibility.
Thanks so much for joining our podcast, Dan.
[00:01:10] Dan Klitsner: Hey, it's my pleasure Charlotte. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:13] Charlotte Cheng: Now let's start at the beginning of your journey. Could you describe a memorable education experience that you've had as a student?
[00:01:20] Dan Klitsner: One of the most memorable educational moments for me was when I was at Art Center in Industrial Design, and I was forced to take a typography class, which I said, “I don't want to take this class.” I want to build stuff, you know? I'm a three dimensional guy. And the class was that you had to study these different type fonts, like Helvetica and Kazlon and whatever else is out there, you know, Arial. And you had to pick some and actually duplicate them by hand with ink and get them perfect at a large scale.
And what I was so surprised is at how, by using my eyes this way, I probably learned more about form than I did by doing all the sculpting and things I did in three dimensions. Because every line width makes a difference when you're doing typography, when you're actually recreating fonts and seeing the spacing between them and how the words work.
And it really opened my eyes to design in a way that I don't think I would have if I hadn't taken that class. So I sort of, so, you know, it's almost like walk before you run. You have to be able to understand proportions, form, design, balance, all these things, which I still to this day can remember how much I learned from that.
[00:02:36] Charlotte Cheng: That's so great. I've taken topography classes. It's also not my favorite subject or topic to practice, but it's so important. The devil in the details, right?
[00:02:45] Dan Klitsner: Exactly.
[00:02:46] Charlotte Cheng: Now from there, so you said you went to the Art Center. Could you share how you became interested in designing toys for kids?
[00:02:53] Dan Klitsner: It's because I loved playing them when I was a kid.
And some of the best moments that are most memorable moments for me were playing games with friends and family. So I gravitated toward it and I used to collect toys, like tin toys, things that I love the lithography on metal toys. I used to kind of invent stuff as a kid, you know, build things and try to take toys apart and put them back together different ways.
So I think I just always liked taking things apart, making new things out of them. But I actually answered an ad in the San Francisco Chronicle for positions available for Discovery Toys in the East Bay and they were just starting to do their own products. And so I just happened to answer this ad and went there and started working on ideas with them.
I was really lucky to find something where I could, as a young designer, work closely with their engineers. They had engineers, but not designers. So, I was able to sort of learn a lot about Industrial Design on the fly and things like here, I've got one. This is uh, one of the rattles that I designed. If you're looking at it,
you can see that it's got a spin, let's see a twist a slide. Uh, I'm sure a kid can bop it. This is about 15 years before Bop It, but it is a rattle that kids, you know, very tactile, kind of a whimsical theme. Like it looks like outer space, there's a sun in the middle and Saturn spins like this. You can chew on it.
So it was really one of the first exercises in making a tactile product, of course, for an infant and also making it aesthetically something that the parent would want.
[00:04:43] Charlotte Cheng: We deal with that all the time too. We're thinking about, wait a second, we're not just designing for the kid. We're also designing for the parent or the educator who's evaluating whether or not to purchase this item, right?
[00:04:55] Dan Klitsner: Yeah, you know, everything you design, in my mind, you know, should be something meant to be left out or make your environment more cool by when you aren't playing with it, because that's usually more of the time than when you are playing with it. So, if you look at a lot of other products I eventually did, that was sort of one of my mantras was try to think of things that even if they were very functional, but they, they needed to have an aesthetic, you know, which is like, lots of design is based on.
[00:05:23] Charlotte Cheng: Right. Yes. Form and function. Now it sounds like at Discovery, you worked on a wide spectrum of different toys and for a wide variety of audiences too, and from there you went on and developed more products.
When it comes to design, which products are you the most proud of? And we'll save Bop It for the end of course. [laughs]
[00:05:42] Dan Klitsner: Yeah, well, I'm most proud of the Woodford Reserve bottle because it's still around 30 something years later. And whenever I go to a bar, I can see it. This is the toilet, the award I got for designing the Clorox Toilet Cleaner bottle, which was the under the rim thing.
And as time goes on, I'm, I'm very proud of those as having forms and functional forms that stood up over time. But on the toy side, I think I'm most proud of one that I don't have with me right now. It's called the Sand Digger. And it was an ergonomic claw that fits over your hand. Like a, like something that allowed kids to dig in the sand like a dog, you know, kind of with their hands like this, like, like you want to dig, but it's too hard or it's too hard or your fingers aren't big enough.
And it was just extension of your body, simple, one piece, blow molded, uh, inexpensive thing. And it's the first product that I actually licensed to a toy company. And I didn't know that much about licensing at the time. And there was some confusion about who was supposed to protect the IP. And I, at some point, it became shareware, everyone started knocking it off and then we couldn't really do anything about it.
But as a result, what's kind of cool. Is it's around 33 years later, I see it everywhere. I see lots of companies doing their own versions of it. I've been in other countries and I see it on the beaches and I'm like, I'm super proud of it because it's fine. You know, it didn't have to be that I owned it. It’s actually more important to me that I created something that people loved and then they've been using for 30 something years.
That really gave me confidence to know that it was possible to create something that was good and thoughtful and tactile and all these things. And that if it worked, you know, wow, now I could do more of those. So even though I kind of lost the intellectual property of it, because of not knowing, you know, I learned my lesson, but it was, it's, yeah, definitely the one I'm most proud of.
[00:07:47] Charlotte Cheng: Nice. And I'm noticing this theme of legacy. Like you said, it's just decades after it's still being used and appreciated. I mean, we feel the same way here. We make coding games and we're at the point we're 10 years old. So not as long as your products, but we're 10 years old.
So we're seeing grown adults coming up and saying, “Hey, I learned how to code with your game. And now I'm a full-time engineer.” Like things like that, where it's just so satisfying to know that something can last or stand the test of time. Right?
[00:08:17] Dan Klitsner: Yes, it's, it's, it really, you don't realize it at the time, but as time goes on, those things keep standing up to that test. It's really a great feeling.
[00:08:27] Charlotte Cheng: Right. Now, I saved the best for last is Bop It. I've played it so much. Uh, in fact, Dan and I met at KublaCon, which is a board game convention, and it was just so fascinating hearing the process of how you invented Bop It. You could talk forever about it, but what was the start of it?
[00:08:42] Dan Klitsner: I was freelancing for a lot of companies. And Memorex was one of them who wanted to do their own line of remote controls. So, in designing remotes for them, at the same time, I had freelance work with Discovery Toys and other toy companies, and I thought, boy, it sure seems like there could be a remote for kids that would be a lot more fun than just these black, boring things.
So I started to come up with ideas for remotes that were themed like funny things, like a couch potato was kind of a joke. You know, it looked like a potato and a ball, you know, like it looked like a football, but it was remote. And this one that I had, it's called the Remote By The Slice and here is. It actually got made, it's a remote control.
The pepperoni is like the volume and the mushroom is a mute control. And it's just like silly. Cause you could leave it on your coffee table. And it's just, I thought it was funny. Like, oh, there's pizza sitting there and you could pick it up, use it as a remote. When I was pitching them, there was one other idea that was a remote.
So when I was pitching them, there was one other idea that was a remote. My biggest idea I thought was a thing called The Channel Bopper. And it looked like this. It was a two-sided hammer that you could bop one way to go channel up and bop on the other side to go channel down. So you could bang on your coffee table to change channels.[laughs] And it had a twist knob that you twisted for volume and a pull for on/off.
So bop, twist, pull was channel change, volume, on/off. And they rejected it and instead took the pizza. So I always like to credit if I hadn't invented the pizza remote, maybe they would have taken the silly idea for a channel bopper and then it wouldn't have been sitting around on my desk, me wondering what else could I do with that?
And I kept pitching it until, you know, through lots of meetings, which is part of what the toy invention business is, you've got to keep pitching. You believe in an idea. You adjust it a little, you try a different company. And at some point someone said, maybe it's not a remote control? You know, I was like, of course it's a remote.
That's the whole concept. What a stupid comment. You know, why would you then, you know, as years, as years go by, you realize there are no comments that we, we don't use that word and, uh, that, um, that instead it was really learn to listen when someone throws an idea out there. Because later, I was like, maybe it isn't a remote, maybe it's a game.
And that's eventually, you know, what turned into Bop It. In fact, the remote was based on the idea of something that I think is really valuable for design and for teaching. It's to have the product's job be to animate the user. You know, that's what tactile design really is. But when you think about the reverse, it isn't about, Oh, look at my product and the form, even though I love things that are aesthetic when they're not being used.
And you are using it. What I like is to think that a product's job is to make you move. Because when you think at the time what games were, there were LCD games that you use your thumbs. And today we all use our phones and we look at someone and they're on their phone and their head's down and they're touching.
What are you doing? Are you texting? Are you playing a game? You know, I'm not involved at all. The whole idea of the channel bopper was when someone's doing something, you can sort of be part of it. And that led to this idea. It was actually trying to reinvent LCD push button games. A company called me and said, you need to come up with a better handheld electronic LCD game.
And I looked at this channel bopper and said, well, maybe that's a game that make it a lot more interesting than just using your thumbs. And eventually evolved into Bop It. It had a screen, in fact, officially, and it was this epiphany like, maybe it doesn't need the screen. If the person's entertaining enough to watch and they have movement, it actually kind of means the person becomes the screen.
And so, I like to joke that Bop It started as a remote control for kids to control a TV but ended up being a game that actually controls kids because it says to bop it and they do it. It says to twist it and they do it. So it's sort of funny that it does literally animate kids. But if you think about it with any design of children's products or probably almost anything, if you just get in that view and say, what happens if we look at this idea and say, if its job is to animate someone, it could just be to make them laugh. That's the easy one. Playing a game of cards, it might be that you have a feature where you have to slap down with your hand or you say, whatever it is, it'll always lead to something good if you say, animate the player.
[00:13:28] Charlotte Cheng: I love that. And part of it was like, at this board game convention KublaCon, you had a Bop It competition. And we're sitting around in a circle and no kidding about animation because you have this multi-player version too, where you know, you're passing it and we we're like on the edge of our seats trying to figure out how to beat the next person.
So truly animating the player, you're almost conducting them too. What else do you think makes Bop It so approachable and engaging? What other features do you think has made it stand the test of time?
[00:13:58] Dan Klitsner: The big thing that Bop It has is a very tactile, nature. The twist knob looks and feels like a twist knob. The pull knob looks and feels like a pull knob.
The Bop It, you wanna Bop It. This original one I'm holding up, and then the later ones, that's what's really different about it is you can feel it and not a lot of products did that or have done that. So that's one of the things that led to us working with LightHouse for the Blind.
It's finding that it's tactile nature, even though it wasn't intended to be something for people who are blind or low vision, became the most popular game basically over the last 25 years for almost anyone who's blind or has blind family members. They all know Bop It and have played it together. And probably that's, when you say what makes me most proud, I think that unintended result is hearing stories from people saying, I was blind, I couldn't play with the other kids when I was little, and all of a sudden someone brought a Bop It, and I could learn to play it quickly, and we could play together, and at some point it melted away, that they had no vision because they could play equally, and just as, you know, well or better, because it was audio and tactile.
And, of course, then the other people watching, like we did at KublaCon, you can't tell who's blind when two people are playing Bop It. So they become part of that really amazing, you know, the interaction and the interactivity of other observers watching you play is part of the fun and the laughter. So that really affected me, but I think that's what's so different about it.
There's a beat and music and all those things. There've been other things that are sort of musical, but it's the tactile. You know, three different actions or four, five, all in different X, Y axes. A twist is in this axis, a pull is in this one, bop…you know, there's a lot of extremely three dimensional things about it that when you really analyze other products, very few have that.
[00:15:55] Charlotte Cheng: Right. There's so much content for kids that are digitally consumed, but I feel like the Bop It highlights all of the aspects in which digital content can't cover. Especially when we have kids who are coming from distanced learning, they missed a lot of that. Right?
So what are some thoughts on how we could use these kinds of products in the world of education? For example, you're saying like the LightHouse for the Blind. That's an amazing way to build confidence for a kid who might be losing their vision and who doesn't have their vision. Have you seen any other examples of that?
[00:16:25] Dan Klitsner: Well, technically, I believe there's a whole nother, uh, door to open up with three-dimensional learning. You know how when you learn the alphabet, how did you learn it?
[00:16:35] Charlotte Cheng: I think through the song, the alphabet song, right?
[00:16:38] Dan Klitsner: And why is it that we remember things better with a song? It's a different part of you. It's not just focusing on this literal thing. And so to me, three-dimensional learning is this activation of both sides of the brain that sticks with you more in your subconscious, right? Though that's proven. And when you learn multiplication tables or where you learn things like certain things are kind of memory, but the memory is better when you do special tactile things.
And one of the things I've been playing with is how I've actually created some Bop It type of devices to use that for teaching like math, where just by having to twist and pull and bop and flick and do all these things as your answers, it sort of gets inside you differently. And it's fun. It's more fun. But I think anytime you get away from that linear way of thinking, I think it…it sticks inside you different, like, like the way music does, the way these subconscious right brain things do.
So I think there's a lot we could look at that I've learned as sort of a consequence of watching people play.
[00:17:44] Charlotte Cheng: That's what I've learned also in my experience. Sometimes you have to learn something in three different ways before it really locks in because you don't know which way is going to make it stick.
Right? So some it's the song, but maybe some like for my daughter, the tactile piece, they have the cut out shapes of the letters and she gets to pick them up and form the words and trace them physically. And that actually has helped her with her letter recognition way more than writing it or speaking or saying it out loud.
So mixing and mashing. That sounds like a really great place to start exploring and creating way better experiences for kids.
[00:18:21] Dan Klitsner: Yeah, maybe it's just my, my same mantra, animate the person, the user, whatever would that lead you to, it may be not have anything to do with a Bop It thing at all, of course. But I find that to be the answer and how I start most brainstorms or take a concept and say, how can I make this more three dimensional?
How can I do it? You know, Perplexes is one of the, the other ones that I'm known for. And it's this ball, you can hear it. It's like a labyrinth, but when you're trying to play it, just watching someone rotate this three dimensional labyrinth is a lot more engaging than the original labyrinths that were on a wooden box that sat on a table that everyone kind of had or saw.
And you used your fingers, two dials, and they're really fun. And, you know, you're animating, you're rolling the ball through this maze. This is sort of taking, again, the person, as you play it, you see people lift it up and turn it around. All of a sudden, they're part of the puzzle because the product made them move.
[00:19:24] Charlotte Cheng: I feel like that's a great strategy for us educators too, is to say, hey, always the default is a worksheet.
Often it's like print out a worksheet, have the kids fill it out. But that, like you say, that's very one dimensional. So thinking about, hey, how could I make that activity into something that animates the student, have them act it out, have them sing it out, have them play with a tactile piece, just like you're doing as well.
And Perplexus is a huge popular one at our board game nights too ‘cause people will see it and they want to be the next person to do it. It's like, not just animating the person and having them enjoy it but making someone see that person play and make them want to play as well. That seems like such a interesting concept there.
[00:20:07] Dan Klitsner: Yeah. That's kind of one of the main rules of what you're trying to do with the product is you see it, it looks like fun, and when you watch someone playing. It looks like even more fun. And then you have that feeling like I want to try it. You know, so the I want to try it is a huge part of testing your game ideas or anything, any product, like do people look at it stationary is the first one you want people to say, “I want to try that I'm intrigued,” but then especially when they see other people play it, they, they want to engage. Like you said, you know, you've succeeded if you can make education feel like that.
[00:20:42] Charlotte Cheng: Yeah. I'm putting that challenge out to all of us listeners to step it up, level up, make a curriculum like Bop It. Now, what are some current projects that you're working on and what excites you about them?
[00:20:55] Dan Klitsner: I'm doing a lot of projects that I'm super excited about. One, I'd say is what I was just doing before we got on this call was I'm in the backyard. I call it the cornhole killer. It’s a, a little aggressive. Cornhole is one of the most popular games, outdoor games and I love it. I love playing it, but I had this idea for something completely different, but it's sort of the same genre and it's nothing like it except it does use a very different type of beanbag and I'm going to be doing it probably as a Kickstarter later this year.
It's so unusual and it's so fun and humorous. Like there's a bunch of things about it. And it's one of those ones where usually I license things to toy companies, but in this case, I have some partners, actually the ones that work with me on Perplexus and we're looking at doing it as a special thing that we just try to try something different.
It's something that will be really fun to take around to beaches and let people try it, sort of get their authentic testimonials. And so, we're going to try a launch like that. So that's really exciting to me, just the whole process of it and making it ourselves. And, um, then there's a couple other things I'm working on like a card game that has this cool electronic feature that it's… really fun.
You know, just, I love things that are a new interaction, but super simple, basic, a lot of people, big group games where people can all play at the same time and have some new twists to it. But the type of genre that I like is still tactile games, and I'm also working on a lot of things because of Bop It's 25 year mark, there are a lot of experiences that it's time to sort of bring together like Bop It VR experiences.
For instance, you can imagine it's crazy. We're working on that. I can say it's pretty obvious one. If you imagine what it would be like to be with the Bop It in VR. Talk about animating the player and lots of other things like that, that are just, you know, based on now that we have millennials who were kids when they first played a Bop It, what would they want to do now?
You know, with that experience, not just with their kids, but as an adult.
[00:23:12] Charlotte Cheng: I'm so excited. Sign me up for testing of these toys. [laughs] It does remind me I've gone the whole swing for board games and just game design where before I loved those super complicated three hour games. Yes. Sign me up! But more and more I'm gravitating towards, like you said, with that card game where I can explain it in a minute or less, and people can just hop in and they can learn very quickly and then immediately enjoy. So I'm looking forward to seeing those projects out there.
[00:23:40] Dan Klitsner: I just like things where you sit around, you laugh before you even, those, the cornhole game and this game, you sort of laugh at the theme.
It's got a, a whimsy to it that makes you want to try it. And then, you know, the proof is just really working hard on every detail of the game design, the form, execution…my little mantra that I give as well, it's a guidance, uh, that you can't really have a successful idea until everything is right. Or an idea won't succeed till everything's RITE.
And that stands for relationships, innovation, timing, and execution. And most people just think about their idea and think that's, what an amazing idea, isn't this great? Everyone's going to love it, get all excited. I get that excited every time I have an idea. And it's really important to know that maybe the idea is 25 percent at the most. I mean, Edison had this 1 percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration, which is definitely true, but I do think you have to also honor that the idea needs to be super powerful, you know, to be worth it.
So this is kind of a, a way to gauge your ideas, I kind of visualize that they sit on a table. You're trying to create this table for your idea, for it to succeed. And the four legs of the table are relationship, innovation, timing, and execution, and all of those need to be equally strong. You can't just say my idea is so good.
It's going to sell itself, you know, or all those kinds of things. So when you really break it down, having spent many years on your relationships. It's not just who you know, but how you know them, how you got to know them, all the history you have with that person or company to really inform you, like, is that the company, if you're going to license it to them that wants it and why do they want it?
And when do they want it? There's so much about that, that it all comes back to until you've spent the time doing that in any area. It's pretty hard to launch your idea without all of that. One simple exercise that I like to say is if you have an idea and you think it's great. And you think it's a 10 out of 10, just know that it's probably a five or just tell yourself it's five.
And what would you do to make it into a 10 and go through that exercise? It's like that leg of the table needs to be cut down and then bring it back up. And then when you think you've got it, you go and you say, okay, is the timing good? And then you build that leg up. Why would it be better? Can I research it?
Can I find it? Then the last one, the execution is that thing where everyone can have the same idea and the same time and the same everything, but they have widely different executions of that idea. It's how the devil in the details kind of thing. Like, how did you execute? And the problem with being an idea person is you'll probably have 10 things that you don't know which one to pick.
And really, this is just a way to say, which idea should I work on now? Which is the highest potential based on my relationships, the timing, the execution I can do. And that kind of cycling is really the business of how to finally build this really tall table that's taller than all the other tables you might have that fit all your other ideas on them until that's the one I'm going to commit to that one, here's how I'm going to do it, and you'll have a much better chance of succeeding when you've done that work.
But too often I learned from just crazy idea and then you find that it's a lot of time you spend without, you know, maybe you should have spent it on a better idea or one with higher potential. So I don't know how that applies to other things in the education space, except it's really more in the entrepreneurial or, or just when people are passionate about something.
It could be a presentation. It could be any concept is to break it down a little bit into four parts before jumping and saying, “that's the one.”
[00:27:33] Charlotte Cheng: I mean, it's very relevant, at least in the EdTech space when we're trying to decide what product to work on next. It's the same thing. We have this long list of things that we could possibly work on, but which one do we prioritize?
How do we assess which one's going to make the biggest impact? And we have to have this checklist to determine is it the right timing? Like you said, is the idea really a level tense? And I agree. Sometimes we have to push ourselves beyond what we think is, ah, this is the best we've got, but no, no, no, no.
Plus one, plus one. So all of those pieces, it really helps you figure out what to prioritize next. So thanks for that advice. I think it's relevant for anyone out there for sure. Now, what advice would you give to someone who's interested in developing tactile tech for kids, whether it's toys or maybe exploring how they could use this in an EdTech product or in the curriculum, where should they start?
[00:28:24] Dan Klitsner: Well, I’d do a lot of research on what's been done. And especially what's being done currently, there's so much, you know, going on right now with obviously AI and all the buzz about that stuff. But also just materials, sensors, you know, LEDs… I really feel what's exciting about a lot of the things and sometimes it's harder when you have too many choices, but there are a lot of things that inspire me by finding out what's possible that wasn't possible before, that's much less expensive than it was before and more chips and things available that are kind of able to do things at a good price to inspire your thinking. You know, I think if you kind of say what's possible, you're going to come up with ideas that'll affect everything, but it's also then what's happening with software on the other side, like with AI and everything, there's just so much happening quickly.
That I think that's the most juicy part is in that space is how to educate yourself on as much as you can what's happening and let that lead you to inspiration.
[00:29:26] Charlotte Cheng: Thanks for that advice. It's like right now we think our painter's palette is this many colors. And I think we have so many more now and they keep adding more colors. So it's good to know that full spectrum for sure.
[00:29:39] Dan Klitsner: Right. It's never been a better time, if you're a creative person with ideas to be able to find ways to get them done the execution side with fewer people, between the tech that's out there to help you get things done between 3d printing and people who can help instead on the AI side or the analyst.
There's so many things that used to be huge barriers that now the limit is truly more your ability to think outside the box and really go a little further than what most people would do with the same ingredients.
[00:30:14] Charlotte Cheng: Gotcha. Thank you so much for the advice and Dan, thanks so much for being part of our podcast!
[00:30:19] Dan Klitsner: I love it and I love talking about this stuff, as you can tell, and it's been great thinking about it through this EdTech filter is really interesting to me and I really appreciate you having me.
[00:30:31] Charlotte Cheng: Thanks for listening to EdTech Adventures. Please subscribe to catch more of our episodes and leave a review to support the show. For more resources and info, visit us at codecombat.com/podcast. I'm your host, Charlotte Cheng. We'll see you on our next learning adventure.
[00:00:00] Charlotte Cheng: Welcome to EdTech Adventures. Join us as we explore the role of technology, STEM, and creative play in education. With expert guests, we'll discover how learning is always an adventure. Bop it! Twist it! Pull it! From the 90s and beyond, these sounds have been such an integral part of people's childhood. Dan Klitsner, the inventor of Bop It, and so much more, is with us today.
We'll be exploring how he has leveraged tactile technology to transform play experiences for kids. We'll also explore how we can apply what he's learned to educational opportunities as well. Dan Klitsner is an award-winning industrial designer specializing in concept ideation focused primarily on toy invention.
He has licensed hundreds of concepts including the mega hits, Bop It, Perplexus, and Simon Air. Before specializing in toys, Dan designed many well known bottles, such as Woodford Reserve, Hornitos Tequila, and the Clorox Toilet Cleaner bottle. Recently, Dan and his wife, Alicia have founded Bop It For Good to support organizations that can benefit the most from Bop It's unique popularity and accessibility.
Thanks so much for joining our podcast, Dan.
[00:01:10] Dan Klitsner: Hey, it's my pleasure Charlotte. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:13] Charlotte Cheng: Now let's start at the beginning of your journey. Could you describe a memorable education experience that you've had as a student?
[00:01:20] Dan Klitsner: One of the most memorable educational moments for me was when I was at Art Center in Industrial Design, and I was forced to take a typography class, which I said, “I don't want to take this class.” I want to build stuff, you know? I'm a three dimensional guy. And the class was that you had to study these different type fonts, like Helvetica and Kazlon and whatever else is out there, you know, Arial. And you had to pick some and actually duplicate them by hand with ink and get them perfect at a large scale.
And what I was so surprised is at how, by using my eyes this way, I probably learned more about form than I did by doing all the sculpting and things I did in three dimensions. Because every line width makes a difference when you're doing typography, when you're actually recreating fonts and seeing the spacing between them and how the words work.
And it really opened my eyes to design in a way that I don't think I would have if I hadn't taken that class. So I sort of, so, you know, it's almost like walk before you run. You have to be able to understand proportions, form, design, balance, all these things, which I still to this day can remember how much I learned from that.
[00:02:36] Charlotte Cheng: That's so great. I've taken topography classes. It's also not my favorite subject or topic to practice, but it's so important. The devil in the details, right?
[00:02:45] Dan Klitsner: Exactly.
[00:02:46] Charlotte Cheng: Now from there, so you said you went to the Art Center. Could you share how you became interested in designing toys for kids?
[00:02:53] Dan Klitsner: It's because I loved playing them when I was a kid.
And some of the best moments that are most memorable moments for me were playing games with friends and family. So I gravitated toward it and I used to collect toys, like tin toys, things that I love the lithography on metal toys. I used to kind of invent stuff as a kid, you know, build things and try to take toys apart and put them back together different ways.
So I think I just always liked taking things apart, making new things out of them. But I actually answered an ad in the San Francisco Chronicle for positions available for Discovery Toys in the East Bay and they were just starting to do their own products. And so I just happened to answer this ad and went there and started working on ideas with them.
I was really lucky to find something where I could, as a young designer, work closely with their engineers. They had engineers, but not designers. So, I was able to sort of learn a lot about Industrial Design on the fly and things like here, I've got one. This is uh, one of the rattles that I designed. If you're looking at it,
you can see that it's got a spin, let's see a twist a slide. Uh, I'm sure a kid can bop it. This is about 15 years before Bop It, but it is a rattle that kids, you know, very tactile, kind of a whimsical theme. Like it looks like outer space, there's a sun in the middle and Saturn spins like this. You can chew on it.
So it was really one of the first exercises in making a tactile product, of course, for an infant and also making it aesthetically something that the parent would want.
[00:04:43] Charlotte Cheng: We deal with that all the time too. We're thinking about, wait a second, we're not just designing for the kid. We're also designing for the parent or the educator who's evaluating whether or not to purchase this item, right?
[00:04:55] Dan Klitsner: Yeah, you know, everything you design, in my mind, you know, should be something meant to be left out or make your environment more cool by when you aren't playing with it, because that's usually more of the time than when you are playing with it. So, if you look at a lot of other products I eventually did, that was sort of one of my mantras was try to think of things that even if they were very functional, but they, they needed to have an aesthetic, you know, which is like, lots of design is based on.
[00:05:23] Charlotte Cheng: Right. Yes. Form and function. Now it sounds like at Discovery, you worked on a wide spectrum of different toys and for a wide variety of audiences too, and from there you went on and developed more products.
When it comes to design, which products are you the most proud of? And we'll save Bop It for the end of course. [laughs]
[00:05:42] Dan Klitsner: Yeah, well, I'm most proud of the Woodford Reserve bottle because it's still around 30 something years later. And whenever I go to a bar, I can see it. This is the toilet, the award I got for designing the Clorox Toilet Cleaner bottle, which was the under the rim thing.
And as time goes on, I'm, I'm very proud of those as having forms and functional forms that stood up over time. But on the toy side, I think I'm most proud of one that I don't have with me right now. It's called the Sand Digger. And it was an ergonomic claw that fits over your hand. Like a, like something that allowed kids to dig in the sand like a dog, you know, kind of with their hands like this, like, like you want to dig, but it's too hard or it's too hard or your fingers aren't big enough.
And it was just extension of your body, simple, one piece, blow molded, uh, inexpensive thing. And it's the first product that I actually licensed to a toy company. And I didn't know that much about licensing at the time. And there was some confusion about who was supposed to protect the IP. And I, at some point, it became shareware, everyone started knocking it off and then we couldn't really do anything about it.
But as a result, what's kind of cool. Is it's around 33 years later, I see it everywhere. I see lots of companies doing their own versions of it. I've been in other countries and I see it on the beaches and I'm like, I'm super proud of it because it's fine. You know, it didn't have to be that I owned it. It’s actually more important to me that I created something that people loved and then they've been using for 30 something years.
That really gave me confidence to know that it was possible to create something that was good and thoughtful and tactile and all these things. And that if it worked, you know, wow, now I could do more of those. So even though I kind of lost the intellectual property of it, because of not knowing, you know, I learned my lesson, but it was, it's, yeah, definitely the one I'm most proud of.
[00:07:47] Charlotte Cheng: Nice. And I'm noticing this theme of legacy. Like you said, it's just decades after it's still being used and appreciated. I mean, we feel the same way here. We make coding games and we're at the point we're 10 years old. So not as long as your products, but we're 10 years old.
So we're seeing grown adults coming up and saying, “Hey, I learned how to code with your game. And now I'm a full-time engineer.” Like things like that, where it's just so satisfying to know that something can last or stand the test of time. Right?
[00:08:17] Dan Klitsner: Yes, it's, it's, it really, you don't realize it at the time, but as time goes on, those things keep standing up to that test. It's really a great feeling.
[00:08:27] Charlotte Cheng: Right. Now, I saved the best for last is Bop It. I've played it so much. Uh, in fact, Dan and I met at KublaCon, which is a board game convention, and it was just so fascinating hearing the process of how you invented Bop It. You could talk forever about it, but what was the start of it?
[00:08:42] Dan Klitsner: I was freelancing for a lot of companies. And Memorex was one of them who wanted to do their own line of remote controls. So, in designing remotes for them, at the same time, I had freelance work with Discovery Toys and other toy companies, and I thought, boy, it sure seems like there could be a remote for kids that would be a lot more fun than just these black, boring things.
So I started to come up with ideas for remotes that were themed like funny things, like a couch potato was kind of a joke. You know, it looked like a potato and a ball, you know, like it looked like a football, but it was remote. And this one that I had, it's called the Remote By The Slice and here is. It actually got made, it's a remote control.
The pepperoni is like the volume and the mushroom is a mute control. And it's just like silly. Cause you could leave it on your coffee table. And it's just, I thought it was funny. Like, oh, there's pizza sitting there and you could pick it up, use it as a remote. When I was pitching them, there was one other idea that was a remote.
So when I was pitching them, there was one other idea that was a remote. My biggest idea I thought was a thing called The Channel Bopper. And it looked like this. It was a two-sided hammer that you could bop one way to go channel up and bop on the other side to go channel down. So you could bang on your coffee table to change channels.[laughs] And it had a twist knob that you twisted for volume and a pull for on/off.
So bop, twist, pull was channel change, volume, on/off. And they rejected it and instead took the pizza. So I always like to credit if I hadn't invented the pizza remote, maybe they would have taken the silly idea for a channel bopper and then it wouldn't have been sitting around on my desk, me wondering what else could I do with that?
And I kept pitching it until, you know, through lots of meetings, which is part of what the toy invention business is, you've got to keep pitching. You believe in an idea. You adjust it a little, you try a different company. And at some point someone said, maybe it's not a remote control? You know, I was like, of course it's a remote.
That's the whole concept. What a stupid comment. You know, why would you then, you know, as years, as years go by, you realize there are no comments that we, we don't use that word and, uh, that, um, that instead it was really learn to listen when someone throws an idea out there. Because later, I was like, maybe it isn't a remote, maybe it's a game.
And that's eventually, you know, what turned into Bop It. In fact, the remote was based on the idea of something that I think is really valuable for design and for teaching. It's to have the product's job be to animate the user. You know, that's what tactile design really is. But when you think about the reverse, it isn't about, Oh, look at my product and the form, even though I love things that are aesthetic when they're not being used.
And you are using it. What I like is to think that a product's job is to make you move. Because when you think at the time what games were, there were LCD games that you use your thumbs. And today we all use our phones and we look at someone and they're on their phone and their head's down and they're touching.
What are you doing? Are you texting? Are you playing a game? You know, I'm not involved at all. The whole idea of the channel bopper was when someone's doing something, you can sort of be part of it. And that led to this idea. It was actually trying to reinvent LCD push button games. A company called me and said, you need to come up with a better handheld electronic LCD game.
And I looked at this channel bopper and said, well, maybe that's a game that make it a lot more interesting than just using your thumbs. And eventually evolved into Bop It. It had a screen, in fact, officially, and it was this epiphany like, maybe it doesn't need the screen. If the person's entertaining enough to watch and they have movement, it actually kind of means the person becomes the screen.
And so, I like to joke that Bop It started as a remote control for kids to control a TV but ended up being a game that actually controls kids because it says to bop it and they do it. It says to twist it and they do it. So it's sort of funny that it does literally animate kids. But if you think about it with any design of children's products or probably almost anything, if you just get in that view and say, what happens if we look at this idea and say, if its job is to animate someone, it could just be to make them laugh. That's the easy one. Playing a game of cards, it might be that you have a feature where you have to slap down with your hand or you say, whatever it is, it'll always lead to something good if you say, animate the player.
[00:13:28] Charlotte Cheng: I love that. And part of it was like, at this board game convention KublaCon, you had a Bop It competition. And we're sitting around in a circle and no kidding about animation because you have this multi-player version too, where you know, you're passing it and we we're like on the edge of our seats trying to figure out how to beat the next person.
So truly animating the player, you're almost conducting them too. What else do you think makes Bop It so approachable and engaging? What other features do you think has made it stand the test of time?
[00:13:58] Dan Klitsner: The big thing that Bop It has is a very tactile, nature. The twist knob looks and feels like a twist knob. The pull knob looks and feels like a pull knob.
The Bop It, you wanna Bop It. This original one I'm holding up, and then the later ones, that's what's really different about it is you can feel it and not a lot of products did that or have done that. So that's one of the things that led to us working with LightHouse for the Blind.
It's finding that it's tactile nature, even though it wasn't intended to be something for people who are blind or low vision, became the most popular game basically over the last 25 years for almost anyone who's blind or has blind family members. They all know Bop It and have played it together. And probably that's, when you say what makes me most proud, I think that unintended result is hearing stories from people saying, I was blind, I couldn't play with the other kids when I was little, and all of a sudden someone brought a Bop It, and I could learn to play it quickly, and we could play together, and at some point it melted away, that they had no vision because they could play equally, and just as, you know, well or better, because it was audio and tactile.
And, of course, then the other people watching, like we did at KublaCon, you can't tell who's blind when two people are playing Bop It. So they become part of that really amazing, you know, the interaction and the interactivity of other observers watching you play is part of the fun and the laughter. So that really affected me, but I think that's what's so different about it.
There's a beat and music and all those things. There've been other things that are sort of musical, but it's the tactile. You know, three different actions or four, five, all in different X, Y axes. A twist is in this axis, a pull is in this one, bop…you know, there's a lot of extremely three dimensional things about it that when you really analyze other products, very few have that.
[00:15:55] Charlotte Cheng: Right. There's so much content for kids that are digitally consumed, but I feel like the Bop It highlights all of the aspects in which digital content can't cover. Especially when we have kids who are coming from distanced learning, they missed a lot of that. Right?
So what are some thoughts on how we could use these kinds of products in the world of education? For example, you're saying like the LightHouse for the Blind. That's an amazing way to build confidence for a kid who might be losing their vision and who doesn't have their vision. Have you seen any other examples of that?
[00:16:25] Dan Klitsner: Well, technically, I believe there's a whole nother, uh, door to open up with three-dimensional learning. You know how when you learn the alphabet, how did you learn it?
[00:16:35] Charlotte Cheng: I think through the song, the alphabet song, right?
[00:16:38] Dan Klitsner: And why is it that we remember things better with a song? It's a different part of you. It's not just focusing on this literal thing. And so to me, three-dimensional learning is this activation of both sides of the brain that sticks with you more in your subconscious, right? Though that's proven. And when you learn multiplication tables or where you learn things like certain things are kind of memory, but the memory is better when you do special tactile things.
And one of the things I've been playing with is how I've actually created some Bop It type of devices to use that for teaching like math, where just by having to twist and pull and bop and flick and do all these things as your answers, it sort of gets inside you differently. And it's fun. It's more fun. But I think anytime you get away from that linear way of thinking, I think it…it sticks inside you different, like, like the way music does, the way these subconscious right brain things do.
So I think there's a lot we could look at that I've learned as sort of a consequence of watching people play.
[00:17:44] Charlotte Cheng: That's what I've learned also in my experience. Sometimes you have to learn something in three different ways before it really locks in because you don't know which way is going to make it stick.
Right? So some it's the song, but maybe some like for my daughter, the tactile piece, they have the cut out shapes of the letters and she gets to pick them up and form the words and trace them physically. And that actually has helped her with her letter recognition way more than writing it or speaking or saying it out loud.
So mixing and mashing. That sounds like a really great place to start exploring and creating way better experiences for kids.
[00:18:21] Dan Klitsner: Yeah, maybe it's just my, my same mantra, animate the person, the user, whatever would that lead you to, it may be not have anything to do with a Bop It thing at all, of course. But I find that to be the answer and how I start most brainstorms or take a concept and say, how can I make this more three dimensional?
How can I do it? You know, Perplexes is one of the, the other ones that I'm known for. And it's this ball, you can hear it. It's like a labyrinth, but when you're trying to play it, just watching someone rotate this three dimensional labyrinth is a lot more engaging than the original labyrinths that were on a wooden box that sat on a table that everyone kind of had or saw.
And you used your fingers, two dials, and they're really fun. And, you know, you're animating, you're rolling the ball through this maze. This is sort of taking, again, the person, as you play it, you see people lift it up and turn it around. All of a sudden, they're part of the puzzle because the product made them move.
[00:19:24] Charlotte Cheng: I feel like that's a great strategy for us educators too, is to say, hey, always the default is a worksheet.
Often it's like print out a worksheet, have the kids fill it out. But that, like you say, that's very one dimensional. So thinking about, hey, how could I make that activity into something that animates the student, have them act it out, have them sing it out, have them play with a tactile piece, just like you're doing as well.
And Perplexus is a huge popular one at our board game nights too ‘cause people will see it and they want to be the next person to do it. It's like, not just animating the person and having them enjoy it but making someone see that person play and make them want to play as well. That seems like such a interesting concept there.
[00:20:07] Dan Klitsner: Yeah. That's kind of one of the main rules of what you're trying to do with the product is you see it, it looks like fun, and when you watch someone playing. It looks like even more fun. And then you have that feeling like I want to try it. You know, so the I want to try it is a huge part of testing your game ideas or anything, any product, like do people look at it stationary is the first one you want people to say, “I want to try that I'm intrigued,” but then especially when they see other people play it, they, they want to engage. Like you said, you know, you've succeeded if you can make education feel like that.
[00:20:42] Charlotte Cheng: Yeah. I'm putting that challenge out to all of us listeners to step it up, level up, make a curriculum like Bop It. Now, what are some current projects that you're working on and what excites you about them?
[00:20:55] Dan Klitsner: I'm doing a lot of projects that I'm super excited about. One, I'd say is what I was just doing before we got on this call was I'm in the backyard. I call it the cornhole killer. It’s a, a little aggressive. Cornhole is one of the most popular games, outdoor games and I love it. I love playing it, but I had this idea for something completely different, but it's sort of the same genre and it's nothing like it except it does use a very different type of beanbag and I'm going to be doing it probably as a Kickstarter later this year.
It's so unusual and it's so fun and humorous. Like there's a bunch of things about it. And it's one of those ones where usually I license things to toy companies, but in this case, I have some partners, actually the ones that work with me on Perplexus and we're looking at doing it as a special thing that we just try to try something different.
It's something that will be really fun to take around to beaches and let people try it, sort of get their authentic testimonials. And so, we're going to try a launch like that. So that's really exciting to me, just the whole process of it and making it ourselves. And, um, then there's a couple other things I'm working on like a card game that has this cool electronic feature that it's… really fun.
You know, just, I love things that are a new interaction, but super simple, basic, a lot of people, big group games where people can all play at the same time and have some new twists to it. But the type of genre that I like is still tactile games, and I'm also working on a lot of things because of Bop It's 25 year mark, there are a lot of experiences that it's time to sort of bring together like Bop It VR experiences.
For instance, you can imagine it's crazy. We're working on that. I can say it's pretty obvious one. If you imagine what it would be like to be with the Bop It in VR. Talk about animating the player and lots of other things like that, that are just, you know, based on now that we have millennials who were kids when they first played a Bop It, what would they want to do now?
You know, with that experience, not just with their kids, but as an adult.
[00:23:12] Charlotte Cheng: I'm so excited. Sign me up for testing of these toys. [laughs] It does remind me I've gone the whole swing for board games and just game design where before I loved those super complicated three hour games. Yes. Sign me up! But more and more I'm gravitating towards, like you said, with that card game where I can explain it in a minute or less, and people can just hop in and they can learn very quickly and then immediately enjoy. So I'm looking forward to seeing those projects out there.
[00:23:40] Dan Klitsner: I just like things where you sit around, you laugh before you even, those, the cornhole game and this game, you sort of laugh at the theme.
It's got a, a whimsy to it that makes you want to try it. And then, you know, the proof is just really working hard on every detail of the game design, the form, execution…my little mantra that I give as well, it's a guidance, uh, that you can't really have a successful idea until everything is right. Or an idea won't succeed till everything's RITE.
And that stands for relationships, innovation, timing, and execution. And most people just think about their idea and think that's, what an amazing idea, isn't this great? Everyone's going to love it, get all excited. I get that excited every time I have an idea. And it's really important to know that maybe the idea is 25 percent at the most. I mean, Edison had this 1 percent inspiration, 99 percent perspiration, which is definitely true, but I do think you have to also honor that the idea needs to be super powerful, you know, to be worth it.
So this is kind of a, a way to gauge your ideas, I kind of visualize that they sit on a table. You're trying to create this table for your idea, for it to succeed. And the four legs of the table are relationship, innovation, timing, and execution, and all of those need to be equally strong. You can't just say my idea is so good.
It's going to sell itself, you know, or all those kinds of things. So when you really break it down, having spent many years on your relationships. It's not just who you know, but how you know them, how you got to know them, all the history you have with that person or company to really inform you, like, is that the company, if you're going to license it to them that wants it and why do they want it?
And when do they want it? There's so much about that, that it all comes back to until you've spent the time doing that in any area. It's pretty hard to launch your idea without all of that. One simple exercise that I like to say is if you have an idea and you think it's great. And you think it's a 10 out of 10, just know that it's probably a five or just tell yourself it's five.
And what would you do to make it into a 10 and go through that exercise? It's like that leg of the table needs to be cut down and then bring it back up. And then when you think you've got it, you go and you say, okay, is the timing good? And then you build that leg up. Why would it be better? Can I research it?
Can I find it? Then the last one, the execution is that thing where everyone can have the same idea and the same time and the same everything, but they have widely different executions of that idea. It's how the devil in the details kind of thing. Like, how did you execute? And the problem with being an idea person is you'll probably have 10 things that you don't know which one to pick.
And really, this is just a way to say, which idea should I work on now? Which is the highest potential based on my relationships, the timing, the execution I can do. And that kind of cycling is really the business of how to finally build this really tall table that's taller than all the other tables you might have that fit all your other ideas on them until that's the one I'm going to commit to that one, here's how I'm going to do it, and you'll have a much better chance of succeeding when you've done that work.
But too often I learned from just crazy idea and then you find that it's a lot of time you spend without, you know, maybe you should have spent it on a better idea or one with higher potential. So I don't know how that applies to other things in the education space, except it's really more in the entrepreneurial or, or just when people are passionate about something.
It could be a presentation. It could be any concept is to break it down a little bit into four parts before jumping and saying, “that's the one.”
[00:27:33] Charlotte Cheng: I mean, it's very relevant, at least in the EdTech space when we're trying to decide what product to work on next. It's the same thing. We have this long list of things that we could possibly work on, but which one do we prioritize?
How do we assess which one's going to make the biggest impact? And we have to have this checklist to determine is it the right timing? Like you said, is the idea really a level tense? And I agree. Sometimes we have to push ourselves beyond what we think is, ah, this is the best we've got, but no, no, no, no.
Plus one, plus one. So all of those pieces, it really helps you figure out what to prioritize next. So thanks for that advice. I think it's relevant for anyone out there for sure. Now, what advice would you give to someone who's interested in developing tactile tech for kids, whether it's toys or maybe exploring how they could use this in an EdTech product or in the curriculum, where should they start?
[00:28:24] Dan Klitsner: Well, I’d do a lot of research on what's been done. And especially what's being done currently, there's so much, you know, going on right now with obviously AI and all the buzz about that stuff. But also just materials, sensors, you know, LEDs… I really feel what's exciting about a lot of the things and sometimes it's harder when you have too many choices, but there are a lot of things that inspire me by finding out what's possible that wasn't possible before, that's much less expensive than it was before and more chips and things available that are kind of able to do things at a good price to inspire your thinking. You know, I think if you kind of say what's possible, you're going to come up with ideas that'll affect everything, but it's also then what's happening with software on the other side, like with AI and everything, there's just so much happening quickly.
That I think that's the most juicy part is in that space is how to educate yourself on as much as you can what's happening and let that lead you to inspiration.
[00:29:26] Charlotte Cheng: Thanks for that advice. It's like right now we think our painter's palette is this many colors. And I think we have so many more now and they keep adding more colors. So it's good to know that full spectrum for sure.
[00:29:39] Dan Klitsner: Right. It's never been a better time, if you're a creative person with ideas to be able to find ways to get them done the execution side with fewer people, between the tech that's out there to help you get things done between 3d printing and people who can help instead on the AI side or the analyst.
There's so many things that used to be huge barriers that now the limit is truly more your ability to think outside the box and really go a little further than what most people would do with the same ingredients.
[00:30:14] Charlotte Cheng: Gotcha. Thank you so much for the advice and Dan, thanks so much for being part of our podcast!
[00:30:19] Dan Klitsner: I love it and I love talking about this stuff, as you can tell, and it's been great thinking about it through this EdTech filter is really interesting to me and I really appreciate you having me.
[00:30:31] Charlotte Cheng: Thanks for listening to EdTech Adventures. Please subscribe to catch more of our episodes and leave a review to support the show. For more resources and info, visit us at codecombat.com/podcast. I'm your host, Charlotte Cheng. We'll see you on our next learning adventure.
