Why Buying Signals Are Sitting in Your CRM Already with Ronan Leonard

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This file was generated by Descript
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INTRO
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Today on the podcast, I'm joined by
Ronan Leonard, founder of Intelligent
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Resourcing and a certified innovation
officer and serial entrepreneur.
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In his work now with clients, he
essentially helps sales rep eliminate
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completely the forty percent of their
day manually looking up companies
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on Google and ZoomInfo, and instead
he gives his clients the buying
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signals they need right into the
CRM so the team just takes action.
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We also dove into our conversation around
AI and how that's going to evolve or
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change business models And Ronan used
an illustration of when he grew up in
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Wales, he described that sometimes it
would snow for weeks, and some days
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you would open up the curtains and
then the snow would be completely gone.
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And he's alluding that that is what may
happen with some business models today.
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Business models that you and I
see look totally fine, but then
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they might vanish overnight.
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This isn't doomerism.
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This is just, just an approach
of how business models have to
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evolve with the changing times,
technology, and opportunities.
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We dive into in the podcast why he
refuses to build software as a service,
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which is how we originally met o-
over ten years ago, actually, building
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software as a service companies.
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We also dive into what he means when
he talks about dark data, hiding in
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your own sales call transcripts, and
how pricing works more like a Coke in a
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vending machine versus a Coke at a bar.
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And a lot of people don't understand
the difference of how you can price the
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same product differently at different
locations depending on perception.
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And we have a genuinely honest
disagreement about co-risking deals
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and doing revenue share with clients,
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So let's dive into the
podcast and hope you enjoy it
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PODCAST
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Raul: overwhelmed as well,
like, with all the changes.
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And it's nice to hear that even
some, like if you hear Kaparthy on
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podcasts, it's like, oh yeah, even
I'm overwhelmed, like he's saying it.
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That means that everyone's overwhelmed.
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That means that even if you're working
in it every single day, it's still
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overwhelming of-- the pace of change.
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But let-- d-dive us backwards.
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How was it before AI
and the new tech stacks?
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Like you were doing like your business
systems and development and go-to-market.
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Can you walk me through
like what was life pre-AI?
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Ronan leonard: Pre-AI, I actually
had a different business, so
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you could see it coming, but it
doesn't apply to every business.
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It, it does in some way,
but in others it doesn't.
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You go, "Okay, well, we do
a lot of things manually.
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We do a lot of face-to-face things.
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There's not a lot there that
I could optimize using AI."
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So there are obviously certain
business models and, and use cases
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where it's gonna have minimal impact.
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But as, as the rapid chase of-- the
pace of change, there's others where
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it's, it's gonna complete-completely
smash your business model.
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you're either in this bubble,
which I think a lot of us
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Raul: Mm-hmm.
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Hmm.
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Hmm.
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Ronan leonard: I grew up in Wales, and
we'd have snow, and you play around
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for a week, and then one morning
you'd open the curtains, it was
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Raul: Hmm.
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Ronan leonard: It happens really,
really quickly, and this is what AI
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is doing to lots of business models.
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Raul: Okay, so this is a really key
thing that I'm helping people through,
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thinking through myself, writing a
lot on or thinking a lot on and hel-
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and being interviewed by my agents
to help me write and expand on it.
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How are you thinking through your own
business model, and how are you building
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moats to differentiate and protect?
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Because even, like you mentioned,
the tech's changing rapidly.
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It's almost every other day
of a new iteration, new cycle,
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something coming through.
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How are you thinking about current
state, building what needs to be, if
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then, then also future pacing or future
protection of how do I differentiate or
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keep my in-in-integral moat, go-to-market
structure, either value prop in integrity
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while also being open for change?
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Ronan leonard: one of the first things
that I've been thinking about for the
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last, sort of, six, nine months is
not to build any kind of SaaS or a
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Raul: Yeah.
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Ronan leonard: because you
can almost just rip it up.
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So it's- I'm focusing on what's
the latest thing that comes out
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or what's something new that
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Raul: Hmm.
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Ronan leonard: Before they were
doing all of that manually.
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it's just one more layer on top
of, we call it kind of signals.
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What are the signals or marketing
intelligence that we can deliver
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to you that before you had somebody
that was going out manually looking
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on Google, using outdated tools like
ZoomInfo and doing all this themselves
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when they're not GCM engineers, they
don't really know the tech stack.
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We now say, "Here's all the information
delivered to you into your CRM hit.
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Thank you very much.
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All I need to do is actually action
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Raul: Take action on it.
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And that's the hardest part of control
too, is like you got gold you're sitting
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on, why are you not taking action on it?
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But so you're, you're looking
at, okay, the basis of-- Or it's
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a key fundamental, go to market
in terms of the business model.
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And I think it's important to
un-understand the ingredients
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of a business model.
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And I'm saying it for the audience here.
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There's your value prop, then there's
your go to market, your customer
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relationships, your ICP, your cost
driver, like your revenue driver, how
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you price out, how you generate rev.
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Then on the back end is your key
activities, key relationships,
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cost structure, team admin,
strategy, finance, et cetera.
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That is essentially your business model.
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Here you're focusing on the key
ingredient, which is sales, which
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every business in the world needs.
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But also it's how you go to market
differently versus how in the past you
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would go to market with calling people up,
visiting the site, doing manual research.
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So you're able to amplify that, and you're
using the tech, from what I'm hearing,
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to find more ways to add value to the
client or more ways to give them an edge
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in their outreach, whatever that may be.
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Is that what I'm hearing correctly?
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Ronan leonard: Yeah.
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Hun-100%, so we look at
things like their dark data.
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So really kind of old school, one
of the things that I see more and
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more is you're gonna have this,
what we call an evergreen CRM.
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So again, one of our clients, 5,000
contacts in there, very minimal details.
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So the first thing we do is kind of
enrich their CRM so that we know if we
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pull a new ICP into there, it's not…
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It's brand new, and it's not
already kind of hidden there with an
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incorrect name or barely information.
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And we then put AI across all that,
so all of their existing clients,
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they're getting marketing intelligence
But this company is expanding.
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This company has just hired someone new.
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This, this, this has
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Raul: Mm-hmm.
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Ronan leonard: and if it's
relevant, we'll push it straight
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through to their account managers.
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We're also taking a lot of their
dark data, things like their sales
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transcripts and you're probably
doing this as well and saying, "Okay,
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let's analyze your sales transcript.
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What are the objections?
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What are all of the key things that five
or six sales reps individually kind of
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know it, but collectively they don't?"
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we're feeding that back into GEO, so
helping them with answer optimization
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for the LMMs because they've had some
great insights in these sales calls.
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The people have told them their
biggest pain points, the reason
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that they're switching or they're
going from manual to this SaaS.
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And so then we just feed that back
into their content because then it
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gets better because the audience
are looking for those questions.
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surface them up in their sales
calls, but they're not on their
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website and their brochures and
their information and their blogs.
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Raul: Yeah, it's kind of incredible,
just on a side note, how easy your SEO
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or A-J- AI SEO is, is now because of AI.
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Like it's like the full cycle,
like things that you wouldn't think
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that could just be like an add-on.
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In terms of how you're evolving
the business model, like what
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are you doing personally?
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Is it still net new value for
clients and expanding upon that?
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But how are you also operate
changing the operational structure
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or even the cost structure teams
versus agents versus tech stack?
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Ronan leonard: That's really
on an individual basis.
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I find that a lot of them are
still aren't kind of ready for
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Raul: Hmm.
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Ronan leonard: So what they've done is
they've scaled systems that don't scale.
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Raul: Hmm.
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Ronan leonard: And so some of
those you, you can't change
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a business model overnight.
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You know, I used to work on cruise
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Raul: Yep.
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Ronan leonard: It takes half an hour to
turn a cruise ship round if someone jumps.
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So you've got to kind of lead
them in a direction where what
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do they wanna focus on first?
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Okay, this part.
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Now, here's something
else we can add value to.
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So you prove yourself and
y- you, you add more value.
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Raul, you know what it's like.
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It, it's, it's very hard for
everybody to find customers.
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So when you've find, found one really
smart to add more value to them
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and more value to them rather than
trying to take the new one, a new
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one and, and prove yourself all over
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Raul: Yeah.
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Ronan leonard: to say you wanna
be a jack of all trades and
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try and do everything for them.
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That's not the goal.
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But the goal is to say,
"Hey, we've solved this part.
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There's another component
we can do as well.
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Have you thought about this?"
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And just add more value, and so your cost
of acquisition goes down You become more
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sticky and you're just adding more value
because there's other areas you can see.
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But if you try and bite off that
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Raul: Yeah, yeah.
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Ronan leonard: don't believe you
or they just become overwhelmed
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and go, "No, no, it's too hard."
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Raul: Yeah, so you're pacing it
and, and increasing LTV as well.
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But so you're pacing it, you're looking
at around what you're able to do and
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what you also frankly want to do,
'cause everything that you're able
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to do, you may not want to do it.
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So I think there's also
that, that paradigm as well.
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Is there a specific tech stack
that you like to focus on, or is it
00:10:22.436 --> 00:10:23.966
always different per, per client?
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Is that-- And have you developed
your system to the point where the
00:10:27.266 --> 00:10:30.426
tech stack doesn't matter, and it's
the system and how you orient it
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and how you focus to drive value?
00:10:32.616 --> 00:10:35.366
Or do you have like a tried and true
specific tech stack that you like,
00:10:35.366 --> 00:10:39.906
like a CRM that you always fall back
to or like specific integrations
00:10:39.906 --> 00:10:41.586
or APIs that you use every time?
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Ronan leonard: No, they
just keep changing.
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Raul: Hmm.
00:10:44.256 --> 00:10:45.966
Ronan leonard: six
months ago, it was Clay.
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We're still using Clay, but there's
just different ways of doing things.
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You mentioned I've playing around with the
Caparthy methodology of looping agents.
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Raul: Yeah.
00:10:58.673 --> 00:10:59.253
Ronan leonard: we
00:10:59.330 --> 00:11:11.440
Raul: Hmm.
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Ronan leonard: for what
most of those people do.
00:11:14.103 --> 00:11:16.563
So they're doing very, very
complex things inside them.
00:11:16.803 --> 00:11:17.163
Sure.
00:11:17.223 --> 00:11:21.103
Very hard to rip out Salesforce
because the emotional pain
00:11:21.140 --> 00:11:21.890
Raul: Yeah.
00:11:22.623 --> 00:11:24.813
Ronan leonard: and everybody
uses it and knows where the
00:11:24.883 --> 00:11:26.283
fields are and what happens.
00:11:26.683 --> 00:11:35.213
But there native now AI CRMs that
20th of the price of that and can
00:11:35.213 --> 00:11:37.233
deliver similar, if not better value.
00:11:37.843 --> 00:11:38.953
it's just evolving.
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It really just depends what
they're comfortable with.
00:11:41.423 --> 00:11:43.753
I got one client that's locked into a CRM.
00:11:44.193 --> 00:11:46.113
We came in and said, "We could
do all this and we can give you
00:11:46.113 --> 00:11:48.703
a CRM that becomes evergreen."
00:11:48.703 --> 00:11:51.053
And now we're locked into this one.
00:11:51.453 --> 00:11:57.393
And again, in the larger sort of
space, there's that both fear change,
00:11:57.393 --> 00:11:59.683
but also somebody signed off on that.
00:11:59.793 --> 00:12:02.893
And so you don't want to step
on their toes and tell them
00:12:02.893 --> 00:12:04.313
that they've made a mistake.
00:12:04.783 --> 00:12:08.893
So you have to be, "Okay, look,
we'll work with that legacy CRM.
00:12:09.103 --> 00:12:10.583
We'll just plug in everything two-way.
00:12:10.583 --> 00:12:13.503
We'll do APIs and we'll push
the data in and we'll pull it
00:12:13.503 --> 00:12:15.543
out and we'll do that for you.
00:12:15.543 --> 00:12:17.023
And you keep your CRM.
00:12:17.383 --> 00:12:19.033
I'm not going to die on that hill."
00:12:19.380 --> 00:12:21.040
Raul: No, yeah, that's
always a difficult one.
00:12:21.040 --> 00:12:23.660
But you're not going to the point
where you're vibe coding the CRM.
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You're essentially-- I think it's
best to use like third-party providers
00:12:26.530 --> 00:12:30.650
that are API open or easier to use
through MCP, but ideally through CLI.
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Which ones do you pr- particularly
like to lean towards or do you actually
00:12:33.340 --> 00:12:35.270
vibe code the CRM for specific clients?
00:12:35.670 --> 00:12:37.770
Ronan leonard: We don't vibe code CRM.
00:12:37.800 --> 00:12:43.130
My main G2 engineer, he loves looking
at faults, and he finds he can hack
00:12:43.580 --> 00:12:46.980
some of the most advanced or well-known
00:12:47.267 --> 00:12:50.767
Raul: Yeah.
00:12:50.890 --> 00:12:51.230
Ronan leonard: pole."
00:12:51.620 --> 00:12:55.740
So we're also mindful of our customers'
kind of data, because when you're
00:12:55.740 --> 00:12:59.200
pushing and pulling data in and
out, especially when you're looking
00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:03.580
at five thousand, twenty thousand
records, you have to be careful.
00:13:03.580 --> 00:13:07.390
So vibe coding looks great
on paper and you can spin up
00:13:07.430 --> 00:13:08.530
things really, really quickly.
00:13:08.530 --> 00:13:11.950
So for example, we were tracking
all of our prompts inside of
00:13:11.950 --> 00:13:13.700
a software that does that.
00:13:14.190 --> 00:13:15.670
It's about three hundred dollars a month.
00:13:16.070 --> 00:13:20.010
One of our clients, we've got about two
hundred and fifty we built content for
00:13:20.010 --> 00:13:23.990
them over the last three, four months,
and we were tracking all of that, and
00:13:24.780 --> 00:13:26.550
built our own tool, cost us twenty
00:13:26.787 --> 00:13:26.997
Raul: Mm.
00:13:27.370 --> 00:13:31.000
Ronan leonard: So instead of three
hundred US, we now pay twenty, we know
00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:32.970
how to, to tap into the, the APIs.
00:13:32.970 --> 00:13:35.800
We can do the calls for
complexity, all those things.
00:13:36.030 --> 00:13:37.850
And also we've got a couple
additional features as well.
00:13:38.150 --> 00:13:41.840
But I would never front end that
and, and give it away to, to
00:13:41.997 --> 00:13:42.237
Raul: Mm-hmm.
00:13:42.670 --> 00:13:43.870
Ronan leonard: It's just for our use
00:13:43.957 --> 00:13:44.477
Raul: Internal.
00:13:44.900 --> 00:13:48.480
Ronan leonard: Again, internal, I
don't wanna build a SaaS at this
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:53.030
point because just believe someone's
gonna build it that's half the price.
00:13:53.160 --> 00:13:56.390
And, and again, when you're talking…
00:13:57.110 --> 00:14:00.000
It would cost you twenty dollars,
you can make it in half a
00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:02.000
day, where's the moat in that?
00:14:02.140 --> 00:14:05.340
'Cause someone else, even if you
try and sell that and promote it
00:14:05.340 --> 00:14:07.360
with a margin, someone else is gonna
00:14:07.492 --> 00:14:09.162
Raul: Yeah, but you're building on
something that's more important is right
00:14:09.162 --> 00:14:12.282
now you're-- where what I'm seeing is
building custom software internally.
00:14:12.512 --> 00:14:16.002
Obviously, you wouldn't for specific
clients who have specific compliance
00:14:16.002 --> 00:14:21.222
requirements, you're never gonna just like
overnight build a SOC 2 compliant data
00:14:21.222 --> 00:14:23.032
integration system or a HIPAA compliant.
00:14:23.272 --> 00:14:26.882
Like there's a lot of pieces that you
shouldn't before either visualization
00:14:26.882 --> 00:14:29.892
or workflow management or something that
can help you deliver more value quicker.
00:14:29.892 --> 00:14:32.802
I think that's the key play is
building internal tools that become
00:14:32.802 --> 00:14:36.292
now your IP or either through skills
or agents or actual software that you
00:14:36.292 --> 00:14:37.812
use internally to service the client.
00:14:37.812 --> 00:14:40.782
And I think that's a key reframe
here to think about is the tool is
00:14:40.782 --> 00:14:42.502
not the value, it's the outcome.
00:14:42.902 --> 00:14:47.012
So selling the tool now is a
deflationary strategy, in my opinion.
00:14:47.482 --> 00:14:48.702
But when you sell the outcome,
00:14:48.900 --> 00:14:49.310
Ronan leonard: percent.
00:14:49.372 --> 00:14:52.932
Raul: use these deflated tool
costs to sell a bigger outcome
00:14:52.932 --> 00:14:54.342
or to focus on a bigger outcome.
00:14:54.732 --> 00:14:57.052
How are you structuring the
team based on that thesis?
00:14:57.452 --> 00:14:58.602
Ronan leonard: Structuring the team in,
00:14:58.652 --> 00:14:59.742
Raul: Like, are you building with,
00:14:59.845 --> 00:14:59.895
Ronan leonard: the
00:15:00.222 --> 00:15:03.702
Raul: like hiring more, more people
to run specific roles, or are you
00:15:03.702 --> 00:15:08.002
making every person AI native so they
have to build their stream of agents
00:15:08.002 --> 00:15:09.612
or flows of agents to support them?
00:15:10.002 --> 00:15:11.782
Is it a flat organizational structure?
00:15:11.782 --> 00:15:14.332
How are you currently structuring
thinking about growth for your own
00:15:14.332 --> 00:15:18.062
company based on the, you know,
being able to leverage the new tech?
00:15:18.462 --> 00:15:20.922
Ronan leonard: it kind of
depends on the employee.
00:15:20.922 --> 00:15:21.762
So we…
00:15:22.562 --> 00:15:26.902
Every week in our team meeting,
I say one of our few advantages
00:15:26.902 --> 00:15:28.102
is the rate at which we learn.
00:15:28.449 --> 00:15:44.949
Raul: Hmm.
00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:46.189
Yeah.
00:15:46.682 --> 00:15:48.552
Ronan leonard: it's-- I, I
don't know where it's gonna go.
00:15:48.552 --> 00:15:50.162
Do you go really, really deep?
00:15:50.582 --> 00:15:54.252
Or if you've got a subject matter
expert for twenty years, you can
00:15:54.462 --> 00:15:57.272
look at AI and, and the outcomes
of that and go, "That's rubbish.
00:15:57.272 --> 00:15:57.872
That's bad."
00:15:57.889 --> 00:16:12.079
Raul: Hmm.
00:16:12.142 --> 00:16:12.532
Ronan leonard: that.
00:16:12.692 --> 00:16:15.322
a-and now I've got to get an agent to
go out and double-check that's true."
00:16:16.012 --> 00:16:19.922
the first thing I do, because
otherwise, if you don't really
00:16:19.922 --> 00:16:22.362
know what you're looking at,
you just go, "That looks right.
00:16:22.469 --> 00:16:22.899
Raul: Oh,
00:16:23.142 --> 00:16:23.582
Ronan leonard: that to the
00:16:23.739 --> 00:16:23.859
Raul: yeah.
00:16:24.072 --> 00:16:25.302
Ronan leonard: or let's implement that."
00:16:25.362 --> 00:16:25.572
Yeah.
00:16:26.062 --> 00:16:30.392
But going back to your question I've
got a number of staff that just fit
00:16:30.392 --> 00:16:35.702
inside of their, their skills, and as
much as I encourage them to, to lean
00:16:35.702 --> 00:16:39.262
to new tools, and we give them all
these things to play, they're just not
00:16:39.262 --> 00:16:41.332
gonna really, really push themselves.
00:16:41.582 --> 00:16:44.412
And then I've got others that, you
know, I wake up in the morning, and they
00:16:44.412 --> 00:16:47.812
say, "Oh, look, overnight, I, I played
around with this and I've learnt this."
00:16:48.162 --> 00:16:52.702
So for the teams that into that, I
give them more and more autonomy.
00:16:52.882 --> 00:16:54.082
Tell me what tools you want.
00:16:54.492 --> 00:16:56.332
Go, go play, go experiment.
00:16:56.562 --> 00:16:57.152
Have some fun.
00:16:57.152 --> 00:16:58.092
Learn, learn into that.
00:16:58.452 --> 00:17:01.352
And then the others, I just have to
manage, manage them like traditional
00:17:01.352 --> 00:17:03.952
employees and say "Have you done this?
00:17:04.002 --> 00:17:05.172
What, what about that?"
00:17:05.342 --> 00:17:07.792
And, and, and they sort of
stay inside of their lane.
00:17:07.912 --> 00:17:11.352
So I've got two at the same time,
which is a little bit schizophrenic.
00:17:11.682 --> 00:17:13.262
So that's how I manage in the team
00:17:13.662 --> 00:17:16.462
Raul: And then in terms of agent
skills, like are you currently
00:17:16.462 --> 00:17:18.282
having specific internal…
00:17:18.282 --> 00:17:20.242
I mean, for the client delivery,
there's probably a plethora of
00:17:20.242 --> 00:17:21.962
skills and, and agents running.
00:17:22.292 --> 00:17:25.912
Internally, are you having any
agents run for you either on Cron or
00:17:25.912 --> 00:17:30.002
Heartbeats, or is that still based
on human in the loop, human leads,
00:17:30.032 --> 00:17:31.862
reviews work, reports back from agent?
00:17:31.862 --> 00:17:34.702
Or how are you using AI in
the actual org structure?
00:17:35.102 --> 00:17:38.182
Ronan leonard: Predominantly
human in the loop, so quite a lot.
00:17:38.332 --> 00:17:39.272
We've got to drink our own
00:17:39.634 --> 00:17:39.794
Raul: Yeah.
00:17:39.894 --> 00:17:58.234
There you go.
00:17:58.422 --> 00:18:00.392
Ronan leonard: I don't see us
hiring too many more people.
00:18:00.442 --> 00:18:04.602
The reason being is that, again,
my weekly meetings, like you
00:18:04.602 --> 00:18:08.772
default towards a process and a
system and automation once you've
00:18:09.044 --> 00:18:09.334
Raul: Mm-hmm.
00:18:09.582 --> 00:18:11.992
Ronan leonard: But you have to
kind of understand it and nail
00:18:11.992 --> 00:18:15.472
it first and say, "Is this worth
creating a system and a process?"
00:18:15.932 --> 00:18:18.592
And again, some of our systems
and processes have changed because
00:18:18.814 --> 00:18:19.344
Raul: fast.
00:18:19.584 --> 00:18:20.554
Yeah, it changes so fast.
00:18:20.582 --> 00:18:21.762
Ronan leonard: we've grown so fast.
00:18:22.234 --> 00:18:23.514
Raul: Once you harden the scaler.
00:18:23.552 --> 00:18:24.202
Ronan leonard: to find that right
00:18:24.234 --> 00:18:24.534
Raul: Yeah.
00:18:24.934 --> 00:18:26.014
how do you find that right balance?
00:18:26.014 --> 00:18:28.864
'Cause in the past, it would be you
SOP it out because you run that 100
00:18:28.864 --> 00:18:30.454
times or 20 times for the clients.
00:18:30.884 --> 00:18:32.964
You'd SOP it out, it document
it, then the team's like,
00:18:32.964 --> 00:18:33.994
"Okay, did you follow the SOP?
00:18:33.994 --> 00:18:34.764
Did you not do that?
00:18:34.764 --> 00:18:35.254
Okay, cool."
00:18:35.684 --> 00:18:40.594
Now, it's like you do it 20 times
and then you create a skill, and
00:18:40.594 --> 00:18:43.254
an agent runs the skill, and then
a team member manages that agent.
00:18:43.254 --> 00:18:45.714
But then there's a new way to
enhance it, so you would enhance
00:18:45.714 --> 00:18:46.934
the skill, test it, validate it.
00:18:47.454 --> 00:18:50.774
Is it just a constant iteration
where your SOPs or your agent
00:18:50.774 --> 00:18:52.154
skills are updated every month?
00:18:52.154 --> 00:18:55.394
Do you have a cycle, or is it
quarterly basis, or is it…
00:18:55.974 --> 00:18:57.024
how do you systemize that?
00:18:57.074 --> 00:19:00.654
'Cause I-- That's something that I'm
seeing is like the skills that I built…
00:19:01.014 --> 00:19:02.884
Well, there's some evergreen skills
that won't change, but there's
00:19:02.884 --> 00:19:04.134
some that are like cutting edge.
00:19:04.134 --> 00:19:07.944
Like something's gonna improve next week,
and one, the system's gonna get better
00:19:07.944 --> 00:19:11.504
because that improvement, but also there's
new tooling involved for an agent to
00:19:11.504 --> 00:19:12.994
actually work and get access to tools.
00:19:12.994 --> 00:19:16.639
How do you, how do you keep up with that
pace of change and Harden that within
00:19:16.639 --> 00:19:18.929
the actual agents or team member skills.
00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:21.559
And the skill that I'm referencing
for the audience is like the
00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:23.149
MD file that chains the agent.
00:19:23.549 --> 00:19:23.709
Ronan leonard: Yeah.
00:19:24.489 --> 00:19:28.309
I think is the, the perennial challenge.
00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:31.879
Having said that, I actually don't
think it's any different from
00:19:32.459 --> 00:19:34.619
business three, five years ago.
00:19:35.019 --> 00:19:37.469
whatever your biggest problem is in
business, once you've solved that,
00:19:37.469 --> 00:19:38.899
everything else gets a promotion.
00:19:39.046 --> 00:19:39.306
Raul: Yeah.
00:19:39.579 --> 00:19:42.769
Ronan leonard: So there's always
this list of, "I've got all of
00:19:42.769 --> 00:19:45.969
these things to do," and, and you
try and rank them in importance,
00:19:45.969 --> 00:19:49.679
and sometimes we, we as humans, we
do the things that are quite easy.
00:19:49.679 --> 00:19:52.109
You know, let's do number six and
seven, and let's leave number one.
00:19:52.109 --> 00:19:52.409
Let's leave
00:19:52.556 --> 00:19:52.926
Raul: Mm-hmm.
00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:55.359
Ronan leonard: Do number one
until it's kind of critical.
00:19:55.409 --> 00:19:59.779
So- it's just one of those things that
is always gonna be there because of
00:19:59.779 --> 00:20:03.709
the rate of change, and it's finding
what's the right balance, I don't know.
00:20:03.739 --> 00:20:05.459
My balance might be different to someone
00:20:05.641 --> 00:20:05.971
Raul: Mm-hmm.
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:12.459
Ronan leonard: So it, it, it is something
I'm acutely aware of because last month we
00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:14.599
we signed a contract with two new clients.
00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:17.429
We're all part of the same entity, and
they all want this kind of delivered
00:20:17.661 --> 00:20:17.911
Raul: Hmm.
00:20:18.439 --> 00:20:21.239
Ronan leonard: I've got three more
introductions, so And, and because
00:20:21.239 --> 00:20:26.599
we're doing different work for each
client, it's not like we do one skill
00:20:26.649 --> 00:20:28.259
and we do it for the same people.
00:20:28.949 --> 00:20:31.369
it's a challenge to get that right balance
00:20:31.371 --> 00:20:32.731
Raul: Yeah, ki- skill orchestration.
00:20:32.769 --> 00:20:33.509
Ronan leonard: on new clients.
00:20:34.041 --> 00:20:35.121
Raul: One of the things that I found…
00:20:35.689 --> 00:20:36.589
Ronan leonard: Give them what they want.
00:20:37.271 --> 00:20:39.131
Raul: Yeah, to that point, one of the
things that I found that was really
00:20:39.131 --> 00:20:43.681
useful is not making one master skill,
but creating a waterfall system of
00:20:43.681 --> 00:20:46.501
nine to 12 different skills for a
specific job to be done, and each
00:20:46.501 --> 00:20:50.681
skill has its own repository of
resources of how good looks like.
00:20:50.711 --> 00:20:55.411
But then also Python hardening to make
sure that it references the source
00:20:55.411 --> 00:20:59.801
code or it references the, the truth of
like what to do every single time, and
00:20:59.801 --> 00:21:01.601
then there's a pre-audit validation.
00:21:01.961 --> 00:21:04.591
Then from there, it can move on to
the waterfall for the next stage.
00:21:04.861 --> 00:21:07.951
And then that way, you can almost
have like a library of skills, and
00:21:07.951 --> 00:21:09.511
then you can custom combine them.
00:21:09.511 --> 00:21:12.011
Like, okay, this client only
needs this, this, and this, so
00:21:12.011 --> 00:21:14.081
we're gonna combine these skills
together, and then you can create
00:21:14.081 --> 00:21:15.781
orchestrator agents that can run that.
00:21:16.231 --> 00:21:18.421
And then obviously the team members
would have to know what the scope is.
00:21:18.421 --> 00:21:22.381
But instead of making one master
skill, I f- I found it to be much more
00:21:22.761 --> 00:21:28.311
accurate, faster time to value to have
a plethora of skills with the agents
00:21:28.311 --> 00:21:30.051
specifically knowing which ones to use.
00:21:30.051 --> 00:21:34.521
But the human has to know, like the, like
a, a simple-- even if it's a simple map.
00:21:35.061 --> 00:21:35.841
Here's what we're gonna use.
00:21:35.841 --> 00:21:39.891
Here's how we're gonna custom-
customize our options to execute.
00:21:40.291 --> 00:21:40.601
Ronan leonard: Nice.
00:21:40.601 --> 00:21:41.061
I like it.
00:21:41.061 --> 00:21:43.531
At the moment though, I don't
have two clients who are actually
00:21:43.531 --> 00:21:44.951
doing the same thing yet.
00:21:45.133 --> 00:21:46.103
Raul: Oh my gosh, Ronan.
00:21:46.631 --> 00:21:48.971
Ronan leonard: all doing almost completely
00:21:49.033 --> 00:21:50.013
Raul: Oh my gosh.
00:21:50.041 --> 00:21:51.331
Ronan leonard: They've
got a different CRM.
00:21:51.331 --> 00:21:54.401
I need this or I want something else.
00:21:54.401 --> 00:21:55.101
And look, it'll
00:21:55.473 --> 00:21:55.883
Raul: Yeah.
00:21:56.071 --> 00:21:57.411
Ronan leonard: It, it's just been the fact
00:21:57.493 --> 00:21:58.273
Raul: You're growing rapidly.
00:21:58.273 --> 00:21:59.163
It's at that stage.
00:21:59.341 --> 00:22:02.241
Ronan leonard: we also don't
work with really small companies,
00:22:02.331 --> 00:22:04.201
so which is a good thing.
00:22:04.201 --> 00:22:09.181
It's about sort of doing good work
for organizations where you can make
00:22:09.181 --> 00:22:10.821
this kind of meaningful difference.
00:22:10.821 --> 00:22:14.271
So if someone comes to me like,
"Oh, I've got one sales staff and,
00:22:14.271 --> 00:22:18.371
we're a team of six, and we want
to implement what you've got."
00:22:18.431 --> 00:22:20.351
It's like it's, you're just too, too small
00:22:20.493 --> 00:22:20.813
Raul: Yeah.
00:22:20.991 --> 00:22:24.331
Ronan leonard: Because the, the
process and the systems and, and,
00:22:24.571 --> 00:22:28.281
and how we would build all, all of
that probably isn't worth it for you
00:22:28.321 --> 00:22:32.211
unless you- the lifetime value of
customer is, is a reasonable size.
00:22:32.261 --> 00:22:35.921
You know, do what you-- continue to
do what you do or do manually or, you
00:22:35.921 --> 00:22:40.521
know, do, do components of it yourself
at a small, small bit so yeah, because
00:22:40.521 --> 00:22:43.761
we're working with organizations that,
as you said, you know, sort of, eight
00:22:43.761 --> 00:22:50.551
sales staff, 22, 50, there's that sort
of level of complexity and, and that is,
00:22:50.911 --> 00:22:55.991
is quite unique to, to their problems
versus a universal, "Hey, I just need
00:22:56.381 --> 00:22:58.371
these five, seven things done for me."
00:22:58.593 --> 00:22:58.783
Raul: Yeah.
00:22:58.783 --> 00:23:01.463
I would challenge that, 'cause even
with custom work, you can build
00:23:01.513 --> 00:23:04.123
the meta principles into skills.
00:23:04.643 --> 00:23:06.603
At least that's how I view
it when I would leverage it.
00:23:06.633 --> 00:23:09.263
Because you would take that baseline,
and then you would build on top of
00:23:09.263 --> 00:23:10.483
it, so you can get to done ready.
00:23:10.483 --> 00:23:13.033
But again, that's just-- I haven't
looked behind the scenes, but
00:23:13.033 --> 00:23:14.523
that's just a way to think about it.
00:23:14.753 --> 00:23:16.063
How are you thinking about pricing too?
00:23:16.063 --> 00:23:16.873
'Cause I-- One of these…
00:23:16.873 --> 00:23:19.053
So I'll tell you a story, and I think--
I'm not sure if you read the post or,
00:23:19.243 --> 00:23:22.693
or the pod, but one of the guys I was
talking to is that their agency gave
00:23:22.693 --> 00:23:26.173
an AI discount because like, "Oh,
we're gonna use AI for your account."
00:23:26.463 --> 00:23:27.253
So they gave a discount.
00:23:27.593 --> 00:23:29.483
But that's pretty much like
discounting your innovation.
00:23:29.963 --> 00:23:31.193
You can also price per outcome.
00:23:31.193 --> 00:23:34.393
You can also price per
base fees plus outcome.
00:23:34.393 --> 00:23:35.983
Like how are, how are you
thinking about pricing?
00:23:36.363 --> 00:23:39.993
Knowing the cost to deliver is either more
effective or you can go deeper with more
00:23:39.993 --> 00:23:42.273
value, which I'm more of the value play.
00:23:42.663 --> 00:23:44.213
But how are you currently
thinking about pricing?
00:23:44.263 --> 00:23:48.233
Traditional agency pricing, retainer
pricing, fee pricing, or are you now like
00:23:48.233 --> 00:23:52.913
questioning how you should price based
on your availability to the tools and
00:23:52.983 --> 00:23:54.293
the ability for you to add more value?
00:23:54.693 --> 00:23:55.523
Ronan leonard: it's a good question.
00:23:55.523 --> 00:23:59.403
one of the things I look at is
what's their existing cost base?
00:23:59.493 --> 00:24:02.773
What is the traditional
sort of agency model?
00:24:03.173 --> 00:24:06.873
and where do we sit that we can
probably add three to five X value?
00:24:06.885 --> 00:24:07.185
Raul: Hmm.
00:24:07.473 --> 00:24:11.063
Ronan leonard: And, and, and that's,
that's kind of about my price point.
00:24:11.103 --> 00:24:15.963
You know, I look at traditional
SEO companies that, that say,
00:24:15.963 --> 00:24:17.153
I'm gonna use Australian dollars
00:24:17.165 --> 00:24:17.365
Raul: Mm-hmm.
00:24:17.765 --> 00:24:19.105
" Ronan leonard: Hey,
you're a mid-tier company.
00:24:19.105 --> 00:24:22.175
We're gonna charge you, we have
been charging you five, $6,000
00:24:22.175 --> 00:24:23.515
a month to do SEO for you.
00:24:23.915 --> 00:24:27.455
and we'll write you two blog
posts or four blog posts, and
00:24:27.455 --> 00:24:28.995
we'll give you two backlinks."
00:24:29.395 --> 00:24:34.605
And then you just go, you know, I can
give you 16 pieces of content or 24 pieces
00:24:34.605 --> 00:24:37.515
of content for close to half that price.
00:24:37.825 --> 00:24:41.315
And we can track you in the
GEO and all that included."
00:24:41.315 --> 00:24:45.125
So I'm working somewhere between
three to five times price point.
00:24:45.125 --> 00:24:51.385
If you look at staff, again these teams
have had six, eight BDMs and I ask
00:24:51.385 --> 00:24:52.545
them, you know, what are they doing?
00:24:52.675 --> 00:24:56.765
40% of their day is based on just
the manual research of looking this
00:24:56.765 --> 00:24:58.685
company up and all these things.
00:24:58.685 --> 00:25:01.025
Say, okay, right, what does that cost you?
00:25:01.425 --> 00:25:06.315
if we can improve that and give you a
whole, a whole group of ICPs that you
00:25:06.405 --> 00:25:12.595
haven't found on your CRM, that's again,
that's worth three, five, seven 10X.
00:25:13.225 --> 00:25:15.055
and so I'm just looking
at that price point.
00:25:15.105 --> 00:25:19.695
if I can't add three, 3X to what
they're already doing, again,
00:25:19.847 --> 00:25:21.077
Raul: Yeah, it has to make sense.
00:25:21.155 --> 00:25:22.155
Ronan leonard: a no for both sides.
00:25:22.187 --> 00:25:22.987
Raul: has to make sense.
00:25:23.297 --> 00:25:27.587
So you're thinking in terms of
consolidation for their costs to-- of
00:25:27.917 --> 00:25:33.007
spreading the fees across these different
peripherals or adjacent things you could
00:25:33.007 --> 00:25:37.527
be doing, just work with us, and we'll be
able to do more with that same base fee.
00:25:37.737 --> 00:25:38.437
Is that what I'm hearing?
00:25:38.437 --> 00:25:40.937
Is like you're, you're helping--
Like a cost savings angle?
00:25:41.337 --> 00:25:45.077
Ronan leonard: Well, some of those only--
So you-- we put a proposal together to
00:25:45.077 --> 00:25:47.907
this client, and then it's only when we
got under the hood that we found all these
00:25:48.159 --> 00:25:48.449
Raul: Yeah.
00:25:48.637 --> 00:25:53.557
Ronan leonard: They were using an agency
who were, five times the price of us, when
00:25:53.557 --> 00:25:57.917
they were delivering these leads qualified
they were different value proposition.
00:25:57.917 --> 00:25:59.827
They were actually doing all
the phone calls and booking a
00:25:59.829 --> 00:26:00.609
Raul: Oh, the SDR, yeah.
00:26:00.847 --> 00:26:01.787
Ronan leonard: sending out emails.
00:26:02.187 --> 00:26:02.417
Yeah.
00:26:02.697 --> 00:26:07.667
And then of the, the leads that they
booked in didn't meet the client's ICP.
00:26:08.019 --> 00:26:08.439
Raul: Oh, wow.
00:26:08.789 --> 00:26:08.989
Yeah.
00:26:09.287 --> 00:26:10.517
Ronan leonard: they were
five times our price.
00:26:10.757 --> 00:26:14.607
And then I found our clients also
using ZoomInfo, $20,000 a year.
00:26:14.687 --> 00:26:16.097
Like, you don't need ZoomInfo anymore.
00:26:16.517 --> 00:26:17.647
"Oh, we're doing this."
00:26:17.647 --> 00:26:18.687
You don't need that anymore.
00:26:19.017 --> 00:26:21.407
So all of a sudden the, the
value proposition just got better
00:26:21.407 --> 00:26:22.447
and better as we looked under
00:26:22.449 --> 00:26:22.879
Raul: Mm-hmm.
00:26:23.367 --> 00:26:26.277
Ronan leonard: So it, it
really, everyone's different.
00:26:26.289 --> 00:26:26.519
Raul: Yeah.
00:26:26.527 --> 00:26:28.487
Ronan leonard: a, it's you don't
need this tool stack anymore.
00:26:28.797 --> 00:26:30.767
You don't need to do this process anymore.
00:26:31.117 --> 00:26:34.217
Or if you've got five, six staff doing
this, they don't need to anymore.
00:26:34.217 --> 00:26:36.747
They can be more focused on,
the, the job that they're
00:26:36.747 --> 00:26:38.197
supposed to do, which is sales.
00:26:38.917 --> 00:26:41.757
and so it becomes that combination,
that value proposition.
00:26:42.329 --> 00:26:45.629
Raul: Yeah, it's everything is a
consultative sale, but-- and I'm
00:26:45.629 --> 00:26:48.659
not trying to dig into specifically,
"Oh, this is how you're gonna
00:26:48.659 --> 00:26:49.809
price exactly every time."
00:26:49.809 --> 00:26:52.539
But it's just good to know the
framing, 'cause this is a key thing
00:26:52.539 --> 00:26:55.109
that people come to me with like,
"Hey, how do I price differently now?"
00:26:55.109 --> 00:26:59.019
Or, "How do I think about pricing
based on what I'm able to do?"
00:26:59.499 --> 00:27:02.679
And I think to your point, that
is a huge competitive advantage.
00:27:02.679 --> 00:27:04.789
it's not saying that you're the
cheapest option, which I don't
00:27:04.789 --> 00:27:05.799
think that's your positioning.
00:27:06.109 --> 00:27:09.519
But your positioning is, here's
immediate cost savings, and then
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:12.339
here's how we're gonna get more
value without spending more.
00:27:12.339 --> 00:27:15.359
So it's almost the trifecta of
it's, quote unquote, "cheaper."
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.369
Not, I'm not anchoring towards cheap, but
it's cheaper, faster, and better quality.
00:27:19.769 --> 00:27:23.499
But you're positioning it that-- in
a way where you're not competing on
00:27:23.979 --> 00:27:27.329
price, you're competing on value,
but everything else comes together
00:27:27.329 --> 00:27:29.639
because AI and everything that
we're doing is more deflationary
00:27:29.639 --> 00:27:31.119
in terms of tool cost and usage.
00:27:31.509 --> 00:27:33.149
But your anchor is towards the outcome.
00:27:33.149 --> 00:27:38.369
And so there is a mix of value pricing
but a mix of here's how we're gonna be
00:27:38.369 --> 00:27:41.939
able to like day one get you effective
savings and do more quality work for you.
00:27:42.429 --> 00:27:45.369
There's no wrong way to price either,
except if you're doing by the hour.
00:27:45.369 --> 00:27:48.099
I definitely don't recommend
anyone ever price by the hour.
00:27:48.129 --> 00:27:50.039
But it's just interesting to hear that.
00:27:50.679 --> 00:27:53.309
it's cool to hear how you're
in real life doing it.
00:27:53.709 --> 00:27:56.729
Ronan leonard: Well, p-pricing
is incredibly elastic, right?
00:27:56.729 --> 00:28:01.879
If you, if you dive into it, you
know, you can buy a, a Coke in a, in a
00:28:01.879 --> 00:28:03.689
vending machine and pay a certain price.
00:28:03.909 --> 00:28:06.289
You can buy it in a bar where it's
on tap, it's a different price.
00:28:06.289 --> 00:28:07.519
You can buy it in a supermarket.
00:28:07.949 --> 00:28:12.549
So pricing is incredibly elastic
depending on the, the value.
00:28:12.639 --> 00:28:15.679
So if you understand what
value you're providing to the
00:28:16.026 --> 00:28:16.306
Raul: Mm-hmm.
00:28:16.469 --> 00:28:19.639
Ronan leonard: by, by digging a
little bit deeper, then you can price
00:28:19.639 --> 00:28:23.689
accordingly to value rather than the
price, and also what's important to them.
00:28:24.089 --> 00:28:28.529
So I have one client that didn't really
care about the, the cost of the…
00:28:28.529 --> 00:28:31.699
the sunk cost of the staff, even
though we said with this amount,
00:28:31.699 --> 00:28:34.229
we'll save them because they're
doing all this manual task.
00:28:34.629 --> 00:28:37.859
about the pipeline and, and,
and, and lead generation.
00:28:37.859 --> 00:28:41.769
So sometimes people are very
cost-conscious or about certain
00:28:41.769 --> 00:28:45.219
things and others aren't, and so
it's finding that balance, and
00:28:45.219 --> 00:28:46.149
sometimes you just don't know.
00:28:46.149 --> 00:28:49.539
You go in and you've got this proposal
and you've done all the work and you
00:28:49.539 --> 00:28:51.799
push on this, and that's not the thing
00:28:51.936 --> 00:28:52.476
Raul: It bites.
00:28:52.489 --> 00:28:53.739
Ronan leonard: motivates or drive them.
00:28:53.739 --> 00:28:55.009
It- it's something else.
00:28:55.329 --> 00:28:56.679
A-and so pricing is…
00:28:56.989 --> 00:28:59.039
As you said, you have these
conversations all the time.
00:28:59.039 --> 00:28:59.619
It's difficult.
00:29:00.009 --> 00:29:00.319
It is.
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:01.419
It's incredibly elastic.
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:02.249
It,
00:29:02.336 --> 00:29:03.026
Raul: It's an art.
00:29:03.126 --> 00:29:03.396
Yeah
00:29:03.796 --> 00:29:03.986
Ronan leonard: Yeah.
00:29:04.436 --> 00:29:08.656
You know Damien Hirst sold a,
a shark for I think 16 million.
00:29:09.056 --> 00:29:10.996
He paid $250,000 for that.
00:29:10.996 --> 00:29:11.946
He bought it from Australia.
00:29:11.946 --> 00:29:16.086
He put it in formaldehyde and then
said, "Hey, this shark is worth 16
00:29:16.086 --> 00:29:17.286
million," and someone bought it.
00:29:17.546 --> 00:29:17.816
So,
00:29:18.216 --> 00:29:19.076
Raul: It's all perception.
00:29:19.126 --> 00:29:23.186
Are you finding room or wiggle
room to do more co-risk offers?
00:29:23.746 --> 00:29:26.146
Like we-- It's, it's not new to
take the risk of the client, like
00:29:26.146 --> 00:29:28.846
with the client and, and take
a, participate in the upside.
00:29:29.236 --> 00:29:33.186
Are you finding yourself more
bullish using the tech to do that?
00:29:33.626 --> 00:29:36.046
Or are you still traditionally just
doing value-based pricing and then
00:29:36.046 --> 00:29:38.406
just focusing on deliverables and
make sure that the client's happy?
00:29:38.676 --> 00:29:41.216
But are you now looking at how can
I participate in the upside for
00:29:41.216 --> 00:29:42.546
what the client wins that I get?
00:29:42.946 --> 00:29:49.196
Ronan leonard: I, I'd love to do that, but
I find that it is incredibly challenging.
00:29:49.266 --> 00:29:52.736
And, and the reason behind
it is Robert Cialdini, who
00:29:52.736 --> 00:29:54.176
talks about kind of influence.
00:29:54.486 --> 00:29:56.506
I learned this seven, eight years ago.
00:29:56.906 --> 00:29:59.306
Whenever you do a favor for
someone, it's like bread and wine.
00:29:59.956 --> 00:30:04.566
And so the person giving that favor,
over time it comes better and better.
00:30:04.566 --> 00:30:08.356
It's like a great bottle of wine
and, and you r-remember fondly.
00:30:08.756 --> 00:30:11.656
For the person who received
that gift, it's like bread.
00:30:11.656 --> 00:30:14.836
It might be artisanal, it could be
lovely, but eventually it goes stale.
00:30:15.586 --> 00:30:19.456
And so what happens with that pricing
model is you could say to someone,
00:30:19.456 --> 00:30:25.716
"Right I wanna take 25% of all of the
upside, and if we make a million, I make
00:30:25.716 --> 00:30:27.746
a quarter, you make three quarters."
00:30:28.196 --> 00:30:31.446
And so someone who doesn't have that
million says, that sounds fantastic."
00:30:31.846 --> 00:30:34.406
But what happens when they go
to cut the quarter of a million
00:30:34.406 --> 00:30:38.896
dollar check, start going, "Well
they've barely done anything."
00:30:38.926 --> 00:30:43.216
and so I find it tends to
ruin relationships because…
00:30:43.266 --> 00:30:47.396
and because of that, that
deep psychological thing
00:30:47.478 --> 00:30:47.718
Raul: Hmm.
00:30:48.176 --> 00:30:50.666
Ronan leonard: what happens
and why it changes over time.
00:30:51.326 --> 00:30:53.556
and so it's fraught with danger.
00:30:53.586 --> 00:30:54.886
Tried it a few times.
00:30:55.326 --> 00:30:58.556
Find people, you know, when they
don't have something they're really,
00:30:58.556 --> 00:31:00.276
really appreciative, and then
once they've got it they're like,
00:31:00.346 --> 00:31:01.656
"Well, I don't wanna give that
00:31:01.918 --> 00:31:03.018
Raul: Yeah, interesting.
00:31:03.136 --> 00:31:06.436
Ronan leonard: I, I've yet to find
a client that I would really do
00:31:06.436 --> 00:31:10.216
that for because I've seen it in
smaller ways, and I've seen that
00:31:10.626 --> 00:31:15.126
bread and wine thing play out again
and again and again on small things.
00:31:15.126 --> 00:31:18.716
And so it gonna play out on a,
on quarter of a million dollars?
00:31:19.088 --> 00:31:19.478
Raul: Interesting.
00:31:19.478 --> 00:31:20.118
I've had the…
00:31:20.156 --> 00:31:20.416
Ronan leonard: that's
00:31:20.528 --> 00:31:21.038
Raul: It's a good--
00:31:21.106 --> 00:31:21.606
Ronan leonard: my take on it.
00:31:21.898 --> 00:31:24.338
Raul: No, it's a good experience, 'cause
I, I also have, Not actually as similar.
00:31:24.338 --> 00:31:28.528
I have the, the opposite happen hitting
either we hit performance markers
00:31:28.528 --> 00:31:30.808
and/or like deal closes, et cetera.
00:31:31.268 --> 00:31:35.438
But I think that, and I'm not saying
this is maybe why the difference
00:31:35.438 --> 00:31:39.018
is, but I think one of the things
that I, that I believe to be true,
00:31:39.048 --> 00:31:43.768
and I'm betting on it as well, is
that there's a belief layer on the
00:31:43.768 --> 00:31:45.148
relationship between you and the client.
00:31:45.148 --> 00:31:47.738
Obviously, this depends on client
relationships, industry offer,
00:31:47.738 --> 00:31:49.998
what they offer, their mindset,
their leadership, et cetera.
00:31:50.498 --> 00:31:51.178
But I think you're right.
00:31:51.178 --> 00:31:54.858
It's also anchoring the offer
based on the mindset of the ideal
00:31:54.858 --> 00:31:55.818
target that you're gonna buy.
00:31:56.128 --> 00:32:00.278
If they just wanna hit the thing, and
you're helping them achieve that goal
00:32:00.278 --> 00:32:03.808
and that metric, and the relationship is,
"Hey, we're just gonna do this for that,
00:32:03.808 --> 00:32:05.338
for that reason," then maybe you're right.
00:32:05.338 --> 00:32:09.448
Maybe it's best not to co-risk and go, go
into, into it together with the payout.
00:32:09.768 --> 00:32:10.748
I've seen it in my experience.
00:32:10.748 --> 00:32:14.148
Obviously, different industry,
different founder mentality,
00:32:14.428 --> 00:32:16.028
different delivery, different system.
00:32:16.028 --> 00:32:19.248
So it's, it's not to say one
is true and one isn't true.
00:32:19.718 --> 00:32:23.048
But I think it all depends on the
mindset of the founder and the belief
00:32:23.048 --> 00:32:25.498
that you bring to the table when
you're working with that founder.
00:32:25.978 --> 00:32:27.298
But I, I do see what you're saying.
00:32:27.298 --> 00:32:29.718
Sometimes it's, it's easier when
you don't have it, it's easier
00:32:29.718 --> 00:32:30.468
to say, "Yeah, you can take it."
00:32:30.468 --> 00:32:32.788
But then when push comes to
shove, it's like, "Oh, wait, we
00:32:32.788 --> 00:32:34.138
gotta, we gotta think about this.
00:32:34.138 --> 00:32:34.758
Gotta talk about it."
00:32:35.258 --> 00:32:39.128
It's like startup founders giving away
equity way too soon, and like they
00:32:39.128 --> 00:32:40.358
give half the company away with…
00:32:40.858 --> 00:32:41.728
And it's like two people.
00:32:42.328 --> 00:32:42.978
That's interesting.
00:32:43.268 --> 00:32:46.668
Are you, though, more confident in your
ability to deliver value now that you
00:32:46.668 --> 00:32:50.048
have access to the tools and you're
developing agents and AI around it?
00:32:50.188 --> 00:32:53.638
Are you more bullish on outcomes,
or are you less bullish or the same?
00:32:54.038 --> 00:32:55.588
Ronan leonard: It, it's
a combination, isn't it?
00:32:55.588 --> 00:33:01.228
Because it's also much as you can
a certain amount of things inside
00:33:01.228 --> 00:33:03.948
their business, they still have to
have a very good business model.
00:33:03.948 --> 00:33:05.708
They have to execute on all of those
00:33:05.830 --> 00:33:06.060
Raul: Mm-hmm.
00:33:06.128 --> 00:33:07.648
Ronan leonard: So it's a combination.
00:33:08.048 --> 00:33:12.378
We've got everything from a private
equity company, who we're doing
00:33:12.428 --> 00:33:17.078
in several divisions for, through
that's got a business partner and,
00:33:17.078 --> 00:33:19.068
and a not chief operations manager.
00:33:19.068 --> 00:33:20.768
So there's different dynamics in there.
00:33:21.168 --> 00:33:24.548
it's navigating, as always, it
always comes back to people.
00:33:24.548 --> 00:33:27.568
it's navigating those who's it right for?
00:33:27.598 --> 00:33:30.538
What's the right value
proposition or what's important
00:33:30.538 --> 00:33:32.288
to them and, and finding that.
00:33:32.338 --> 00:33:35.408
I do think the tech stack is, is…
00:33:35.458 --> 00:33:38.958
And the, the technology is gonna
change and change and change.
00:33:39.378 --> 00:33:44.528
I think we're on this huge
upward, exponential curve, which
00:33:44.528 --> 00:33:46.358
most people just have no idea
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:47.220
Raul: Yeah, we're starting it.
00:33:47.638 --> 00:33:49.018
Ronan leonard: and so they
can't predict the future.
00:33:49.188 --> 00:33:50.078
Even we can't.
00:33:50.188 --> 00:33:52.928
People try and predict the future,
just n- nearly all of them are
00:33:52.928 --> 00:33:54.888
wrong in, in so many ways and, and
00:33:55.320 --> 00:33:55.660
Raul: Yeah.
00:33:56.060 --> 00:33:57.180
Ronan leonard: So who
knows where it's going?
00:33:57.220 --> 00:34:00.760
I think as long as you are you only need
to be one step ahead of your clients.
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:03.080
Like, you need to learn
something today that you can
00:34:03.840 --> 00:34:05.190
around and play with tomorrow.
00:34:05.490 --> 00:34:08.600
That's, that's half the time,
that's half the battle, just
00:34:08.600 --> 00:34:10.900
being one step ahead of, of them.
00:34:11.180 --> 00:34:15.380
And if you look at, the vast majority of
businesses, you're two, three, four steps
00:34:15.380 --> 00:34:20.760
ahead because they are so focused on BAU
that they're just not looking at the…
00:34:20.790 --> 00:34:21.870
this curve coming.
00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:22.470
You know, they're…
00:34:22.890 --> 00:34:25.710
As I said, you know, you've got
50 sales staff, you're, you're
00:34:25.710 --> 00:34:27.430
managing them day in, day out.
00:34:27.430 --> 00:34:28.220
Well, what are they doing?
00:34:28.260 --> 00:34:29.250
What are their KPIs?
00:34:29.720 --> 00:34:30.440
What's working?
00:34:30.690 --> 00:34:34.940
So few business owners and
leaders take that time to
00:34:35.197 --> 00:34:35.697
Raul: Oh, yeah.
00:34:35.947 --> 00:34:36.497
Very few.
00:34:36.617 --> 00:34:37.747
I think less than 5%.
00:34:38.147 --> 00:34:38.327
Ronan leonard: yeah.
00:34:38.727 --> 00:34:41.017
And so do you wanna work
with those, those people?
00:34:41.017 --> 00:34:41.817
That, that's it.
00:34:41.817 --> 00:34:42.107
Yeah.
00:34:42.197 --> 00:34:44.007
Even six months ago, we had…
00:34:44.647 --> 00:34:46.857
we had a meeting and, and CEO said…
00:34:47.657 --> 00:34:49.137
And we said, "We can do
this, this, and this."
00:34:49.137 --> 00:34:51.487
And he said, "Well, maybe I just
wait three months and someone's
00:34:51.487 --> 00:34:52.877
gonna build that tech stack."
00:34:53.084 --> 00:34:54.114
Raul: Oh, wow.
00:34:54.114 --> 00:34:54.374
Good luck.
00:34:54.944 --> 00:34:55.004
Yeah.
00:34:55.404 --> 00:34:56.664
Ronan leonard: 'cause
he'd been vibe coding.
00:34:56.694 --> 00:34:57.334
You know, going back to
00:34:57.451 --> 00:34:58.471
Raul: Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:34:58.724 --> 00:34:58.944
Ronan leonard: he'd been
00:34:58.991 --> 00:34:59.191
Raul: Hey.
00:34:59.214 --> 00:34:59.554
Ronan leonard: coding.
00:34:59.954 --> 00:35:02.634
So he was like, "Oh, well potentially,
you know, someone's gonna build that."
00:35:02.854 --> 00:35:05.784
Well, if they did, for all of the
things that you've told us you want
00:35:05.784 --> 00:35:10.264
to do and, and all the manual process
you're doing, they did, it would
00:35:10.264 --> 00:35:13.694
cost you $100,000 a month probably.
00:35:14.154 --> 00:35:14.584
So
00:35:14.671 --> 00:35:14.731
Raul: Yeah,
00:35:14.934 --> 00:35:15.234
Ronan leonard: yeah,
00:35:15.321 --> 00:35:15.531
Raul: those are lies.
00:35:16.141 --> 00:35:16.201
Yeah.
00:35:16.201 --> 00:35:16.551
Some people
00:35:16.744 --> 00:35:16.974
Ronan leonard: And there
00:35:17.021 --> 00:35:44.251
Raul: believe the
00:35:44.594 --> 00:35:45.094
Ronan leonard: team,
00:35:45.451 --> 00:35:45.601
Raul: though.
00:35:45.634 --> 00:35:46.214
Ronan leonard: with Claude
00:35:46.281 --> 00:35:49.631
Raul: That's the key thing.
00:35:49.631 --> 00:35:51.196
Some people don't know truth from
fiction 'cause they've never done it
00:35:51.596 --> 00:35:52.426
Ronan leonard: Yeah exactly.
00:35:52.516 --> 00:35:56.316
And so it's, it's it's both
managing the expectations both
00:35:56.316 --> 00:35:57.616
internally and externally.
00:35:58.138 --> 00:36:17.758
Raul: Hmm.
00:36:18.158 --> 00:36:20.758
Ronan leonard: So I've done that to
a client, said, "We think we can take
00:36:21.018 --> 00:36:26.868
the of where your trucks go, then we'll
find more clients along that route
00:36:27.170 --> 00:36:27.650
Raul: That's cool.
00:36:28.088 --> 00:36:31.368
Ronan leonard: that you can then
increase the, the value of that run
00:36:31.368 --> 00:36:32.988
because you've got this sunk cost."
00:36:33.398 --> 00:36:36.648
I said, "I can't guarantee it's gonna
work, but I'm pretty sure it will.
00:36:36.878 --> 00:36:40.148
Let's get the data and let's
run that additional experiment."
00:36:40.548 --> 00:36:43.968
it's about- I believe now
it's about creativity.
00:36:44.298 --> 00:36:47.158
How creative are you in the
business to go, that wasn't
00:36:47.158 --> 00:36:48.488
possible, even two years ago.
00:36:48.788 --> 00:36:51.738
You look at how ChatGPT came
out and okay, it's gone back
00:36:51.768 --> 00:36:53.298
and forth and that's brilliant.
00:36:53.328 --> 00:36:57.098
But then it's memory and, and all
those things like it's just forgotten
00:36:57.098 --> 00:36:58.468
what it told me five minutes ago.
00:36:58.468 --> 00:36:59.508
It's had to hallucinate.
00:37:00.278 --> 00:37:03.768
But if you look now and you
just go find a data point and
00:37:03.768 --> 00:37:05.288
find is that important to you?
00:37:05.288 --> 00:37:07.988
Let's go look, see if we can
find it and feed that into your
00:37:07.988 --> 00:37:09.848
intelligence for your business.
00:37:10.370 --> 00:37:11.320
Raul: Yeah, and then from there, iterate.
00:37:11.320 --> 00:37:13.650
It's creating that loop,
that self-improving loop,
00:37:13.650 --> 00:37:14.750
then you're orchestrating it.
00:37:15.310 --> 00:37:17.720
Ronan, I think there's a lot of
different angles that we can continue
00:37:17.720 --> 00:37:20.140
the conversation with, and I think
we'll have you back to, to share
00:37:20.140 --> 00:37:23.200
how, how you're growing from nine
to maybe 20 or 30 people, if you
00:37:23.200 --> 00:37:26.880
decide to go that way, or nine people
and 50 agents running the business.
00:37:27.310 --> 00:37:30.490
But between now and then, where's the
best place for people to, one, thank you
00:37:30.490 --> 00:37:32.680
for being on and to learn more about you?
00:37:33.080 --> 00:37:37.470
Ronan leonard: LinkedIn, they'll be in the
show notes and just check out our website.
00:37:37.470 --> 00:37:39.280
We- we've grown so quickly.
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:41.710
It's, it's probably about
10 videos I wanna put up.
00:37:41.740 --> 00:37:43.870
I just haven't, haven't had the time.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:44.830
It's an excuse.
00:37:44.830 --> 00:37:44.940
Just
00:37:45.173 --> 00:37:45.313
Raul: Yeah,
00:37:45.600 --> 00:37:45.820
Ronan leonard: been a
00:37:45.953 --> 00:37:46.653
Raul: it's all good.
00:37:46.710 --> 00:37:49.760
Ronan leonard: So we're, we're, we're
trying to share some of the things
00:37:49.760 --> 00:37:52.860
that, that, that we are working
and seeing what's working for us.
00:37:53.220 --> 00:37:54.800
It's just, it's happening so fast.
00:37:54.850 --> 00:37:58.990
It's-- you put it up there and, and
then it's superseded in three months.
00:37:59.390 --> 00:38:00.680
yeah LinkedIn or, or our
00:38:01.043 --> 00:38:02.513
Raul: I will put the
links to the show notes.
00:38:02.943 --> 00:38:06.123
Definitely try last 30 days and
then auto research so that your…
00:38:06.123 --> 00:38:08.103
whatever you develop,
it just trains itself.
00:38:08.503 --> 00:38:08.873
Ronan leonard: Nice.
00:38:09.053 --> 00:38:09.303
Yeah.
00:38:11.553 --> 00:38:13.063
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00:38:13.083 --> 00:38:15.293
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00:39:39.413 --> 00:39:41.233
Again, that's DoGoodWork.
00:39:41.233 --> 00:39:42.643
io forward slash apply.
00:39:43.083 --> 00:39:46.583
As always, it's an honor to be
a small part in your journey.
00:39:46.883 --> 00:39:48.033
This is Raul Hernandez.
00:39:48.483 --> 00:39:48.913
Do good work.