Jon Tuttle from Codeseven

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Speaker 1: Hi there. I'm Zach Raff and I'm Donald Phason. We're real life best friends, but we met playing fake life best friends Turk and j D on the sitcom Scrubs. Twenty years later, we've decided to rewatch the series one episode at a time and put our memories into a podcast you can listen to at home. We're gonna get all our special guest friends like Sarah Chalk, John c McGinley, Neil Flynn, Judy Reyes, show creator Bill Lawrence, editors, writers, and even prop masters would tell us about what inspired the series and how we became a family. You can listen to the podcast Fake Doctors, Real Friends with Zack and Donald on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, and wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, what's up, everybody? Welcome to a hundred words or less the podcast I'm your host, Ray Harkins Present and accounted for in regards to the documentation of independent music in the form of an interview, Because what is better than a in depth interview with a person that you may or may not care about, but you definitely care about this whole music scene, this d I Y punk, hardcore, indie rock, whatever it is. You label it. That's what I'm trying to cover because it's uh, you know, I was actually reflecting and kind of like looking back on some previous episodes, and it's very rare where you could have you know, hardcore bands existing alongside pop punk bands existing alongside of you know, uh podcast host um singer songwriters like I just love the wide brush that I can paint with here and have you along for the journey. So thank you. I appreciate that. And we are continuing our march through the state of North Carolina and focused on that particular scene because it's always always engaged me and I've always found a large number of bands that have come out from that scene that have been very important to me. And today we've got John Tuttle, the bassist of Code seven, which is a often spoken about in certain circles, but frankly needs more recognition as far as I'm concerned, you know, because there's a ton of bands that exist out there that you know, have either been profoundly influenced by Code seven UM or toured with them back in the day with an old band of theirs that they are now creating new music that has been influenced by Code seven. What I am trying to say is Code seven is incredibly important, and I think you would be doing yourself a disservice if you did not check them out, if you hadn't heard of them before or revisited one of their old records, if you were like, oh man, that's right, Code seven. Really good band. But John Tuttle is the, like I said, the bassist, and he is one of three brothers in the band, which is crazy to think about, um, but yeah, I I got familiar with them, you know, be about I don't know, early two thousand, early and mid two thousands or whatever. But I got a chance to play a couple of shows with them and just great human beings, and I was excited that I was able to hook this up. More on that in a moment, But you need to rate review the show on whatever podcast platform you're listening to this on, whether it's Apple Podcast, Stitcher, wherever it is you consume this thing, Please leave a review because it helps percolate the shows to the top of the charts or whatever it is. But basically, there's so there's some intrinsic value in you doing that, and it's not going to take you any time at all. You know, even if you're writing a review, that'll probably take you two minutes, So I would appreciate that if you do that, And um, how am I doing? I appreciate you asking. I know that I've been kind of be laboring these points as of late this this, how are you doing? Because I think it's important. I think it's important to stop and like legitimately want to know how people are doing, and like whether that's friends, family, because you know, everybody, oh pretty good, you know, just moving around along, and sometimes it's obviously not appropriate to push, you know, if you're just like acquaintance with the person, completely understood. But I care about you in the way that I've felt you care about me as well. So I'm just keeping you up to date. Mental health is doing progressively better and I'm really really happy. So I'm visiting a therapist for a couple of weeks. I went to a psychiatrist last week, and I'm taking a low level anxiety medication. It's called lexapro Um. And you know, I mean I've only been on it for a couple of days, so I don't necessarily feel any different, but you know, I've been told like around two three weeks is when you start to feel you know, that that that kick in, whatever that may mean. And uh yeah, I'm just excited to go on this journey just to make sure that you know, all of the stuff that I'm experiencing in my head, am able to find a place for it and able to find you know, peace and calm and um you know, all those things that we were searching for, and all the discussions I've been having with friends, family, people that surround me. I just love the fact that we can talk about these real issues because um yeah, I I don't think that the older you get, the more you want to use your time appropriately and engaging in deep conversations with people. That's why I do this podcast. That's exactly why I do this podcast. So anyways, thank you very much for caring about me. And you can always email the show one hundred words Podcasts at gmail dot com to discuss anything, whether it's future guests, whether it's you know, your own mental health, whatever the case may be. Obviously I am not a licensed or professional person to be able to discuss anything medically with you, but you know, just just to be there as a you know, shoulder to uh lean on and you know, support or whatever it is that people say. You know, I think shoulder or cry on, but no you don't. You don't need to cry on my shoulder. I can just be in there in solidarity with you. So anyways, uh, John Tuttle, like I said, just a great guest and played in cod Sevan unbelievable band. And we get into it because they have such an interesting career and they definitely became a band's band where like every band wanted a tour with them, and they relentlessly toured for you know, a good four or five six years where they were just on the road constantly and always got to see them. They definitely stayed at my house a few times when they came through town, and you know, played a decent amount of shows with them. And I just always thought they were an unbelievable man. So here is Code seven, Here is John, and I will talk to you, of course after the episode is over. Vivila, North Carolina, you passed out, what is it? You must have come And I want to say that so I was working at Century Media in the early two thousand's, and I want to say that was where I first discovered like division of labor. And I can't remember if it was either something that was just kind of like in the office or someone mentioned it to me, but I was always excited what I heard bands that were like similar ish to take in because you know, whatever Melott of hardcore wasn't exactly like played by everybody, you know, Yeah, no it wasn't. So I was always like, oh, man, like there's another there's a kindred spirit out there. Yeah. And then, um, you know, from that point on, I was you know, obsessed with you guys, and uh, you know, really found not only the music compelling, but the fact that you guys had this really weird thing going on where you had, you know, two vocalists because no one did that really and to me, just as a listener, it seemed like a nightmare to put together, like it regards to like, oh, yeah, like you know, here's a you know, the singing part and here's the screaming part or whatever, and then like the layering you did on it. Um. And this may be just like a super simple question, but was was that difficult to like kind of figure out how that should all kind of like stack up together? Um? Or did it kind of come just sort of naturally as you guys worked all that stuff. Um. Yeah, we planned a lot of that stuff in advance. UM for sure. UM, a lot of this stuff on that record, the uh in between parts, especially like um, we recorded that with Kirk Bleu at God City and we I think he didn't want to Like I think there's a lot of interludes or stuff that's kind of chopped and paste together type thing that I don't I'm not. I think we did that in mastering, Um, some of those samples and stuff that we did. Um. But yeah, we definitely Uh, that was the first record where it was like, um, we really wanted to go in and have it all figured out like to you know what I mean, like more than just like okay, there's a song, but we wanted to go like over the top, you know, over dubs and kind of go go crazy with experimentation whatnot. Um. But we kind of knew going in because we didn't have a lot of time to do that record. UM, but we planned it way way in advance before going up there, so we you know, it's pretty well planned out. Sure. Sure, yeah, And I guess the a simpler way of of asking that is just the idea of like I presumed that you guys obviously had that stuff you know, worked out heading into the studio, but like like I said, it just seems, um, you know, an additional layer of you know, complication in regards that. Like you were talking about just the you know, editing process of it and being like our, kay, this this part is going to cut off and lead into you know, our other vocalists part. It just seemed like a lot of work. Oh yeah, well yeah vocally, Like, um, I can't say too much about that, Like I I stay completely out of that process. Sure, Um, so like how they matched it all together and whatnot, Like, um, I'm not exactly sure to be honest with you, or how they broke those parts up between each other even I don't really know for sure. Musically though, Um I could talk about and uh yeah it was it was. It was pretty over at the top. I remember being in the studio and this was it was recorded on two inch tape, and you know there's like, you know, to three band members current and everyone's trying to move faders down and mute stuff and move stuff up all while it's going to the final mix. I guess Um, it was. It was pretty intense. Um nowadays, I guess with pro tools you don't have to do stuff like that. But I remember all of us kind of being on the board trying to make these crazy moves and to create these transitions and whatnot. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. No, totally. And I think that's what really came across to me, Uh was just the fact this way it definitely didn't feel like you know, your average bands kind of like oh yeah, like you know here, like we're putting out a record. Yeah, of course we put some thought into it, Like this definitely seemed, you know, really an intense process as it were. Yeah, no, yeah, it definitely was. That was the first time where we feel like we were like, let's let's take this seriously, you know what I mean. Before it was kind of like, uh, can we do this, like, you know, just going through the recording process and it just kind of goofing off and having fun. And that was the first record where it's like, all right, you know, let's really try to try to stand above and like push things a little bit, you know what I mean. Yeah, absolutely, and and to where it's like, you know the fact that it was an EP and uh, you know, I mean I think it clocks in I don't know, probably around thirty minutes or so, maybe long. Yeah, right, And that's right, And that's what I was gonna say to where it's like, you know, most most people view EPs is like, you know, whatever, stop fillers between full lengths or what have you. But this felt the real substantial from that perspective too, right, and that the big reason for that was, Um, the record before that it came out when it came out, like it had been done for a really a pretty good while, over a year probably, um, maybe even longer than that, because we were the record before. That's where we started, you know, talking to labels and stuff, UM, and we got into negotiations with ear Ache Records, which went forever um, and then we ended up and decided not to do that UM. And then the guy that was running the US part of ear Ache started his label and then so there's this whole transition. But like we funded the what people consider our first record, there was technically one before, but a lot of those songs were written you know, in the mid nineties and kind of uh, we were so over those songs by the time they actually came out, we were we were such a different band, uh, and you know, and we were we didn't even really want to put it out. But because it took so long for that to finally come out, so like by the time that record came out, we were probably well into writing a lot of the Division stuff and uh and yeah, that's that's why it was so long, because we we had been building up a lot of stuff and um for quite a while. Even though the time I think, I'm not sure what what it says online Spotify of the release states for between the first record and Division, but uh, I know they look really close. Um, but yeah, they were really far apart, and we were just we were so ready to put out something new, even though that first record was technically new, right. Well, yeah, and to your point, you guys were a completely different band, like this was yeah, you know, as far as like the vision of what you wanted to do. It was like, Okay, yeah, we'll put this thing out, but like that isn't really us anymore, so let's rush this next thing out. Yeah. No, I mean yeah, when the first records and stuff, like half the band was in high school. I think Matt was probably in like ninth grade or tenth grade, and next thing, you know, like we're getting a record contract six records with the Earache Records, and half the band is still in high school and a couple of years away from even graduating, and that that kind of really threw us for a loop because we weren't expecting to get We weren't expecting anything. We had no plans. We just wanted to, uh you know, just get together and uh right and play music. But it was all for fun and whatnot, and that kind of through everything in a whirlwind, and uh it was it was a little too much like we were kind of we were pretty scared of the idea of being uh on a big record label because we we were metal heads grown up. I've got Earic records, you know, I know all about them, and um uh yeah, that really threw it for a loot and we were Yeah, half the band was really young when we started, so I think division was when everyone was out now out of high school at that point, and um yeah, it was like, okay, let's let's get serious about this now, you know. Uh yeah, yeah, I know for sure. Um and and we'll circle back to that. But I kind of wanted to focus on you know, you and and your upbringing within I presume were you born in you and your brother born in North Carolina? Yes? Okay, yeah, um, and so you know, I I imagine that the most people I mean at that time, you know, it's not like you know, punk, hardcore and metal had like completely infiltrated that area, like there was a general awareness, but like you know what, um, you know, I guess how do you get kind of exposed to that independent style of music? Yeah, um, let's see, like, uh, like we were well three three of the members of the band are all brothers, Me James or twins and then Matt is a little brother who's three years younger. He was the drummer. Um, and uh we were growing up we were straight metal, like you know, it started in the eighties with like glam and it was always kind of a quest to find uh uh the next heavy. It was always heavier, you know what I mean, Like we were always anything that we could find out seeing more progressive or heavier and the hard rock stuff that was all. You know, this is before internet obviously, so um that so it was the really aggressive music is you know, once you find thrash and you get MTV and it's like, oh, there's an anthrax udo or what ever. Uh So that was kind of our headspace. We weren't really into the We didn't know much about any of the punk stuff growing up um at all um and then you know, in high school we were still like it was like, we know, dream Theater and carcass and that's what we were still listening even in high school. And uh, I think in eleventh grade we went and took a class for music production and it's where all the schools within the city would come together. And that's where I first met some kids who were who already had bands, um, you know, and they were playing shows and they were making their own shirts, and uh, I had no idea you could even do that, you know. You know, my my mentality was like, oh, you just wait for a record label to offer you a contract or something like, you know what I mean. Um, And these kids like I, you know, meeting some of the kids from other schools who were who were a lot more punk rods stuff going on in those other schools, and you know, they already had bands. The big the venue here that there are playing shows at, they had recordings. I'm like, wait, is that can like, is this possible? You can do this? Yeah? No, it was. It was huge, uh, mind expanding and uh yeah, so that's when I started learning about that there is in the local scene. Uh. It wasn't really heavy though, and that's what we really liked. It was in in Winston. It was really just like punk. Um, maybe a little pop, a little cross, but mainly just like just regular straight ahead punk, which I you know, I wasn't really all that into, but I loved. I love seeing like the d I y thing and like seeing everyone just you know, we'll book the shows ourselves, We'll bring the p a you know, uh, we don't need it doesn't have to be a fancy or whatever. You know. That was where where it was like, oh okay, okay, and that's where we start learning about probably you know, quicksand um uh and then eventually uh, you know, the VIC records stuff like Earth Crisis and staff Case, and that's where everything really changed for us. Sure sure it was full steaming hit after that, right, right, And I imagine I mean it is not your guys experience is not common in regards to the fact that you know, three fifths of the band is sitting like that's just that's weird because normally, you know, yeah, maybe you're gonna get like, you know whatever, you know, two brothers playing in the band. But so I'm gonna guess too that a lot of the influence that you guys were um you know, kind of like learning from one another, where it's like, you know whatever, you would you would find a band and you show your brothers or you're one of your brothers would find a band and show it to you guys, Like were you all kind of like pink pawing off each other with that? H Yeah, yeah for sure. I mean it was um music discovery, like because we we had kind of hit a wall with with uh wouldn't metal anyway because I felt like extreme. I felt like were there was nobody was doing anything more extreme or progressive and anything started to sound the same. Uh So when finding like the hardcore world, uh that just like it was like this refreshing you know, everything, it was like, oh, everything sounded new and fresh, everything looked different, and and everything in metals had gotten so stale. It seemed like everyone was just doing the same thing, a different version of the same thing. And we were a way burned out on it. So when discovering the hardcore stuff, like it was just like so so fresh. Um, it's exactly what we needed. Um. And that's what just and it was one thing after the next, like uh you know, looking at the thanks thank you lists in the the records and whatnot, you know, and that's how we would find a lot of stuff. Sure sure, um you know. And how were your parents kind of reacting to this stuff? Like, you know, were they just like oh my gosh, like all all of them are into this really weird stuff. We don't understand, um, you know, especially I'm sure as you guys started to you know, like dive into playing shows and do all this stuff that was you know, unconventional in their eyes. Like how you know, how did they, I guess kind of cope with that or how did they kind of treat you guys as you were getting into this weird subculture stuff? Yeah? Um no, I mean they were they were pretty open to it, um, um my or our most of the band grandparents like they had they were in like a gospel ban and stuff. And then they would they would go around and do shows every weekend and they would play churches and um, and we as kids, like as far back as I can remember, like on Sundays, you would jump in the van. They had a van. You'd load up a p A and load up on the gear and we would help them load and unload. They would do their show and then you know they would They never left you know, the region. You could always drive and get back the next day. There was never any overnight stays or anything. But like as far back as like as we can remember, like we're going to these shows, not necessarily something I would want to listen to, but the process and everything was there since we were babies, and so you know, we would go over their house and there's PA's and keyboards and guitars and music stuff everywhere. So having that carry over into our house was it was not weird at all because my I guess my mom grew up with that, um and they were her seeing her mom always playing and you know, um, you know, so it wasn't that weird of a thing, I don't think for them. Uh. And our house was the practice house too, um, so everything happened. We were making crazy, crazy noises, getting the cops called every couple of weeks um. But yeah, they didn't. They were they were pretty supportive. They didn't they didn't really care. That's cool, that's cool. I mean it's I I like that central concept two of the you know the gathering place. Like you know, every you know, teenage band that's fortunate enough to have that experience of you know whatever, one of the band members being like, oh yeah, like we're practicing at my place and my parents were cooled with us making noise from like twelve to four on a Saturday, and like the parents are happy because you know, all their kids are under their roof, under their supervision. You know, they can bring them you know, string cheese for you know, snacks and stuff. You know like that, just that protective nature can kind of be intact even though they may be doing something that is not um, you know, conventional from that perspective. Yeah, no, I mean they never really complain, even havn't. I mean we had the cops called him so many times, but they never really Uh. There were some neighbors who really just hated Yeah. I mean because there was a ton of kids that would come over and hang out and you know, get rowdy a little bit, you know, skateboarding everywhere. But they didn't like it. But uh but for the most part, they handled it pretty well. They to be honestly, they they may have handled better than uh than I would personally, because like you know, um, I don't know, I have a fifteen year old now and he's really into playing and stuff, so I may be getting a taste of that coming up pretty soon as well. But um, so they were. They handled it really like they were champs. Yeah. I just I really liked the idea of, you know, the call coming into the to the precinct and it's like, yeah, we gotta go to the tunnel house again. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. It was very much like that. And they were like, you guys sound pretty good. Uh, you know, that's so cool. They were always pretty cool about it. It's like, yeah, they're kind of crappy neighbors, I guess, but yeah, just turn it down or whatever, and you know, you guys, you guys at eight, can you please go down to like a six? And then I think we'll be okay for the day, right, Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean they knew it was a waste of tom and they thought it was It was a pretty positive thing, I think, just to see a bunch of kids trying to do something you know, together, that wasn't you know, destructive? Yeah yeah, yeah, I no. True, that's a very good point. I mean, like when you identify, you know, kids being passionate about something and being like creative whatever that may mean. Um, as long as it, you know, like you said, it's not harming someone. It's just like, oh yeah, kids, you know, messing around music in a basement like that's that's cool, that's pure. Oh and Halloween is almost here. Have you gotten your cool band merch yet? 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And plus they got everything you could possibly want, from beanies to long sleeves, to hoodies to posters to I'm fairly certain they have like scarves and like Necker chiefs. I don't know about Necker chiefs. That's maybe a stretch, but regardless, Rockabilly is the place to go for all of your band merch. I love them and I love the company so much so PC one words is the codecent off. Do it up right now and you'll just be You'll just be that much cooler. Okay, Now on with the show. You and your your brothers. Like you know, when once I started to get to know you guys, and like we played some shows together and stuff like that, you guys always struck me. Um, you know as very you know, quiet and reserved. Um. And I don't mean that in like a wallflower you're not friendly sort of way, but like the sort of people that you know, don't suck the air out of rooms when you walk into them because it's like, oh great, here's the here's the tunnel brothers again, like let's calm down. Um yeah, we were not like that. We stay in the back, prefer to go on unnoticed. Okay, yeah, right, have you guys always kind of like collectively sort of you know, been that or was there a time where you know, because I mean, especially coming from a twin perspective, I'm sure that there's that idea like Okay, I gotta have like my lane and like carve my own identity out from that. Um you know, how did that process kind of go for you guys? Um no, I yeah, no, I mean maybe like uh in a non musical way maybe a little bit, but um, I mean like right now I'm talking to like me and James have a business together, and we've always kind of worked together in music and even afterwards. Uh that's what we do now. We work every day together. Um. So like yeah, we were we always were on the same page with just about everything. Um. And so no, there wasn't really a lot of that, like we didn't. There wasn't as far as the twin thing goes. Uh, you know, you know, we we weren't the type that would wear the same clothes or something like that and try to really play it up or whatever. You know, we would try to go opposite of that, I guess, but yeah, we were just we always like just try to uh kind of just kind of fit in and just kind of stay unnoticed, I guess to a certain extent, Like UM, attention is not something uh either one of us really likes UM too much, you know what I mean? Sure, you're right, Yeah, you're you're like, we enjoyed doing what we're doing, but we don't we don't have to have a bunch of people paying attention to whatever it is that we're doing. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, it's usually for ourselves, you know for the most part, like whatever we do. Sure, no, I understand um. And kind of on that same tip, like did you know, as you guys started, were you know, graduating high school and stuff like that, Like what was the sort of life path as it were? You know, like did your you gonna follow in your your parents footsteps? Like what what was the idea? Um it was? Yeah, there was. College was not something I ever thought about at all. Uh. And if I was going to go to college, it was I was gonna have to pay for myself. Um. And I just I wouldn't have known what I wanted to do. And so the band started almost immediately after me and James graduated high school. Uh, and we met Jeff who had just graduated as where we're all through the same age uh and he, I guess didn't have plans for college either. Um, and so we were just like, uh, you know, we had all this time working a little bit, but it was just like, okay, like let's actually try this now. Um. And yeah, so it was it was pretty much I think we we all were pretty much like as soon as we get out of high school, Um, it's just like, let's really try, uh, and to to put a band together and like actually write songs. And you know, because Coad seven is basically our first band, Like there was not really anything before Code seven. Um and if I almost only banned to be honest with you, UM. So yeah, it was pretty much like get get high school out of the way for us, and then will try to put this thing together. And then Matt, you know, who's three years younger, so he still got a lot left high school left. But you know, he was he was into drums and we weren't, and they were they we had access to drums growing up, so he eventually learned how to play. Um. So that's just it was like, well, let's just do it, uh, for all three of us. But yeah, it was basically like, at least for me and James, he was like, let's get through this this finish line of high school and then just like let's just do band stuff. You know. Sure right, it's like the and so I guess your so your brother basically was was still in high school as you guys started to you know, I guess play out and tour and stuff like that, or had he was he able to kind of graduate before you guys really started to hit the road pretty heavily. Yeah, I mean like, um yeah, the first the first record and division we weren't doing. We it was a lot of like long cans. Uh you know, Um, I don't think we did a full US tour until like ninety nine or two thousand, so and uh so he was probably just finishing in high school when we did that. Um so when when this touring really kicked in. Uh yeah, I think everyone was definitely out God, I got it. Um And like you mentioned, you know, Codes have it is essentially your your first band, like you guys didn't have you know, those those first attempts at well. I mean, I guess technically you could look at the evolution of Code seven being like, well, yeah, yeah, they're like, oh yeah, we didn't know what we were doing at the beginning, and we kind of knew a little bit more a couple of years in or whatever. Um. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of documented if like every record is different. Uh, and maybe that is, you know, the growing up part is documented with our music, which I actually've noticed that in quite a few other bands too, where I feel like, uh, you know, once you get into your twenties, it's like it stays, seems to stabilize a little bit more. But um, yeah, for better or worse, it's it's definitely you can see it's it's it's there. You know, you can see what we were thinking as we were getting older. Yeah. No, well, and it is, you know, I mean people can point at other bands where it's just like yeah, I mean a band like a f I as an example, it's like, you know, that's like literally their first band, and you can see the evolution of that where it's just like oh yeah, like you know, they're a terrible punk band to begin with, and they get you got a little more polish on it or whatever, and so it's like, yeah, when you're able to do that, it's awesome because people can see the trajectory as opposed to like, you know, oh yeah, I was in a bad punk band initially and we were called this, but then you know, we broke up and now we're called this or whatever. It's like right, yeah, totally yeah, You're like, well, no, we're just called this one thing. We've just changed a lot. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And maybe we should have changed something I don't know, but we didn't, yeah, because the records are very different. I'm sure you guys. Did you guys have those discussions at one point, especially I'm sure once the rescue started to kind of come on your ear as far as being like a you know, a real dramatic shift, like, did you guys have that discussion of like should we change our band name? Um? I'm sure it was mentioned, I think when when when Dave left the band, so we went down to one singer between Division and Rescue. I know there was definitely thought about we thought about it, but um, I don't know, it didn't seem like that big of a deal. Um, but I don't think we knew what we were about to write either completely. Yeah, so we just kind of went with it. Um. And we were already under contract with the music Cartel. I think we had one record left for them, so um, so we just I don't know, we just we just kept it. Yeah, just stuck with it. Um. And something interesting that I find too about you know, the North Carolina scene in particular, and you know, you guys obviously contributing to that was the fact that, um, you know, there was because that the in the you know, mid nineties, obviously the internet did not exist in the way that it does now. And you know that's essentially when you guys to you know, play out and play shows and stuff like that. Um, you know, did you I guess kind of notice you know, fellow bands start to kind of pop up like that, not that really existed in the same sort of sonic template of what you guys were, but like, you know, did you kind of start to feel like a scene started to emerge once you guys started to play shows out or was it always kind of just like well, we're whatever show we could play, like, we'll do Um, yeah, I mean no, there was I feel like, uh yeah, there was definitely. I feel like every town that we would go to in the in the early days, it was there was definitely a scene that it may be really small, but you know it's like, um, there was definitely, uh, there was all there always seemed to be a scene. It wasn't necessarily very big, and maybe it was just a house show. Uh you know what I mean, a lot of B f W halls and house shows and stuff like that, but there was always I felt like everything that we were playing was was related to the same scene and with everyone listened to the same music. I think, Um, but it was you know in those early days, like for every little city could be just you know, twenty or thirty people. Uh, but you know, yeah, it was definitely I felt like everything was. I mean, we obviously did some shows, like especially like in the New York area where uh you would play with more uh bands that were maybe not maybe like almost numatally or something, especially in the nineties. Um, but yeah, it seemed it seemed to be like, you know, it's the type of thing like, oh you listen to blah blah, Well we have to be friends, you know, because like nobody really knows about this band, and if you know about him, then we're probably a lot of like and you just kind of you know, it's just well we're friends now, that's just how it works. Um. And and it seems like every city you went to it was like that's who you were playing with, like people who knew about the same music that you were into. Um yeah, no, no, for sure, that makes that makes total sense. Um. And something I know you mentioned and you know has been well documented it but is an interesting thought process where once you know, you guys started to have label interests, like you know, from Eric, like you said, but the idea of signing with a record label for you know, six or seven records was so daunting and overwhelming for you guys that it was like, well, I don't know if we want to do this, and um, you know, I guess kind of walk me through. Like you said that, you're not anticipating anybody paying attention to what you're doing. And then all of a sudden, some stuff starts to like pop off. Um. You like you said you guys did feel overwhelmed by the UM. I guess the business aspect of the band. UM. So like did you have these like really you know, intense band meetings where you guys were kind of like talking about all this stuff or was it pretty I guess easy as far as like okay, like you know, we know we can't do this with your ache like because of this No, I mean like no, we we were ready to go with your ache UM for sure. Like Uh. In the we had uh a lawyer in New York who was really really good, good guy, and he was he was working on it. Uh because we had before our first record, we had a demo that we did ourselves as well. UM and that ended up in Earreche's hands. UM. And next thing, you know, like you know, they're they're calling, uh there, send send us videos if you guys playing live, you know, it's come come up here and meet with us, um, which we did UM. And uh you know, but we were huge fans of Eric, like you know our you know, the carcass and tomb nip on Death, Like we were listening to that you know, just a few years beforehand. Um uh so yeah, yeah, we were we were like, okay, but the six Records was crazy. But I think that's on one of the things that were throwing us off because it started out smaller and then uh the number of kipt seemed to get higher and it was just taken forever and and the and I mean they're they're signing us on some of the pretty much the first music we ever wrote, like not just as a band, but maybe there was one or two songs before that, but those songs in the first demo, that's the first stuff like any of us really ever wrote. And and that is about to get a deal with Eeric Records, which was kind of like wait a second, Like I don't think this is how it's supposed to work. Half the band is in high school still, um. And it was just it was overload. Um. And then and you started to see a little bit of like a little bit of shadiness from ear A how they were trying to adjust contracts without saying anything, um a quarantar lawyer. And obviously we didn't notice any of that stuff. But um, so yeah, we were just like you know what, forget about it UM and the guy that ran the ear at the US part was starting a new label, uh, and he was like, we'll just do a couple of records and it'll be a chill um And we were like, well, that sounds like a better way to start UM, and that's what we ended up doing. But we were we were ready to go. I mean we I think got to the point where we it was like, okay, Tom to sign and in the last second something came up where they had changed something they didn't say, something matters or something I don't remember exactly, but um, and that's when we're like, you know what, we're not doing this, like, you know, just cut it off. Yeah, yeah, we don't need this right yeah, because I mean it is And that time two was very strange for bands that existed in you know, the hardcore or hardcore adjacent scenes, because it was like, well, you know, there there were labels that obviously trafficked within releasing hardcore stuff, but then like because you guys had this like additional weird element of you know, like having melody in the it's like people definitely had larger visions for it's i mean, like another band like vision of disorder, you know, where it's like a lot of people were like, oh yeah, like this can be bigger than you know, just the quote unquote hardcore scene or whatever. Oh yeah totally. And so you know, you guys for sure fit into that idea of like, oh, this can be larger than just you know this whatever, you know, guys screaming out one another or whatever. Right, But we were we were we were so like we were transitioning or had already transitioned out of the metal stuff like that kind of metal anyway, because it started to seem, uh, everyone seemed like they were doing the same thing, and we were head first into hardcore and we were looking through the eerche stuff and the only thing that was like like that was like we should do this is like Coalesce had done a split when Napalm Death on that, you know, and that was the only thing we could look at and say, well, they kind of I guess they're kind of into it. It did something calls um. That was the only thing that that was the that was actually the main thing that was like, Okay, maybe you should because we we love coals Um. Honestly, if if that release wasn't em on eeric. I'm not sure we would have even considered it because we were it seemed metal at that time, seemed really steal to us and like dated and like, uh it felt like we were everything was like back looking backwards too much. Um, except for that Coalesce released that was okay, well maybe it'll be all right. Yeah, I'm glad we didn't do it. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's tough to even like view what that would have looked like through the lens of like, you know, how that could have ping ponged, dear. I mean, most likely it would have just put you guys on tours that would have been really really difficult for you guys, you know, as opposed to you know, with the music Cartel, Like even though it was a you know, a random label for you guys to like work with, you have the relationship there, um, and you know, it's clearly like the only thing that could could be remotely attached to the style of music that you guys were playing, because like every other release was obviously you know, stoneer rock. Um. Yeah. And that's the thing which is really weird, because I we didn't like music Cartel was hadn't really formed yet when we Uh, I'm not sure we were the first bandit sign, but we were really close. So it was like the guy that runs uh Earche in the US, like or the generalmander for Eric or whatever, like, he started a new label, so we assumed, and yeah, we knew he was the guy. I think he was the one that signed Sleep to Earache, but you know, we assumed it would be kind of similar to like more of the heavier stuff, uh, you know, so, but it was a brand new label. He was out on his own. But we really liked him a lot. Uh. So it was it was new for us, but it was new for him, which I think we were kind of we kind of liked, but you know, we kind of I know for me anyway, I assumed it was going to be, you know a little closer to what Eric was doing. Um. And then I started seeing the releases come out. It's like, oh, crap, we're on a stone rock label. I had. I did not see that coming when we signed, which is fine, it's cool. Uh, he was were way ahead of the curve on that, to be honest with you. Um, but yeah, when we signed, we we had no idea that was the label that he was planning on building. Uh. It was just something new for him, and it was new for us, and it seemed like a baby step and we were way more comfortable with that in the world where everyone is confined to their homes. Society begins its largest bin watch to date in the hallowed library of Hulu, or perhaps on a shelf of DVDs you haven't looked at in a decade. Is there a show that perfectly encapsulates life in the early aughts and launched a friendship that would inspire millions. Hi, I'm Zach Braff and I'm Donald Phason. In two thousand one, we start in Scrubs, a sitcom that revealed a glimpse of what it was like to survive a medical internship. As Turk and j D, we explored guy love. Nearly twenty years later, a lot has changed. We're not Superman, but we're still best friends. 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Okay, you can do multiple things at once. But Bridge on Records is one of my favorite labels around and they're consistently putting out incredible, incredible music, including the spiral Head seven inch and they also have the new Beach Slang full length of for preorder that's coming out in January. I'm so excited about that. So thank you very much, Bridge nine. Visit B nine store dot com. By the spiral at seven inch prior to the agnostic front stuff, prior to the beach Sling stuff. Where you're at it, Okay, so do it all. Bridge nine Records is the place to be. Now here's the rest of the show, you know, because I'm gonna presume. I mean, and this is just sort of anecdotally speaking from like the stories I heard about, Um, you know that label kind of existing. Was that um, you know there was a um like you know, budgets were solid like it was. It was a basically a larger independent label that obviously had this sort of you know, upstart nature of being like, oh yeah, well, this isn't a label that's existed for you know, ten years. This is like brand new and we have some funding and stuff like that. It's like, I guess, did you guys feel supported from that perspective? Um? I mean, I mean the budgets compared to like a year ache were not even remotely close for what we would have gotten. But um, yeah, but like he you know, I think he had Caroline distribution, um when the label was getting going, and he had all the context and uh I think maybe maybe took a person or two from Erica. I'm not sure, but um, but yeah, we knew he had the distribution in place, which was the big thing, and we knew he had to know how because he's already doing it for a really big label already. So it just seemed like, uh, but it was a new for him to actually run the whole thing and started from the ground up. But because he had the distribution in place and you know, some expertise, it's it seemed like a good a good fit for us. Sure, sure, it makes sense. Um. And as he started to you know, get out and tour and obviously get some you know, momentum. From that perspective, did you initially like touring. Was that something that you were attracted you right away or did you have to kind of like learn to you know, find aspects of it that you enjoyed? Um? No, No, we loved it, um for sure, Like um, you know, being that young, you don't really care and it and it it's it was our college, I feel like in a lot of ways, um, where you just jump in the van and for the first time you have freedom, you know, because everyone was still living at home with the parents when all this started. Um, you know, and that was our like our getaway you know, to learn a lot about life. We did it together in the van, um, and it was amazing. Like I wouldn't trade it for the world. That's awesome, that's cool. Yeah, it is the only reason I asked that is because you know, certain personalities are definitely, um, you know, more tailored for touring. And you know, I mean when you're younger, you don't care because just that sense of adventure can kind of you know, lasting for a little bit. But you know, for some people it's definitely like, oh, this wasn't exactly what I thought it was going to be right now, And not like the idea of like, oh yeah, like I expected it to be on you know, tour buses or whatever, because clearly that's the case, but just the idea of like, oh, man, like it's pretty exhausting, you know being around people seven or whatever, and just like have that sort of you know, mental health component of it. Right. No, Um, I we were you know, there's we we got along grade it definitely. You know you could drive, you contribute crazy, I guess. But um, we were the type of band that you know, if there's a show ten hours away but it looks like to be good, but that's all we got, then we'll drop ten hours, uh to do it. And it it always made sense, even in a lot of times most of the time, to be honestly, we we never really made any money, but um, it was all going towards like you know, this overall goal of trying to just let people hear the music, and it always seemed worth it, you know, a ten hour drop to a show and then two an hour drop back right after you get get done playing. And we would totally do it. Um, as we got older, obviously, you know, in the later years the Coat seven for sure, Um, that's when it got harder. Not necessarily because of being with around each other a lot, but um, just like financially it's like, oh, crap, I'm an adult now. Somewhere along the way I turned into adult. I have responsibilities. Uh, kid is on the way. Uh, oh crap, this is getting a lot harder to do. And and you know that's those are the types of things where when it got hard, um, when the responsibility stuff started kicking in. Um. And and that's yeah, and that definitely pretty much wore the band down, to be honest with so in that respect, But it wasn't. If financially it was working out for us, we would have we probably would have kept on going. Uh you know what I mean. It wouldn't have been like, uh, it wouldn't have been like we can't handle each other. Maybe a little bit towards in Uh. But yeah, it was more it's like, oh, we're an adult now, we have these responsibilities, and it's getting harder to do those things. Um. You know, for us, we make money when we stay at home, not when we go on tour. Um. Uh you know what I mean, That's just how it always was for us. Total, totally, totally. But I mean yeah, like you you guys, it's it looked like and you know, from my experience with you guys on the road, it looks like you you obviously built your lives around the band where it's just like, okay, we'd you know, come home obviously, like you know, would either break even or make a little money, but not to the point of where obviously we'd be able to you know, subsist on that for you know, a couple of months at a time. So it's like, you know, you bring worked you know, transitionary jobs or whatever you had, like you know, working bars or whatever. Um. But that was the that was the hustle because you guys were like, well, yeah, we just want to still focus on the band because we're excited about these opportunities or whatever. I mean, it was it was I mean, it was it was our business, uh for the most part, and and we loved it and we were willing to do anything for it. And you know, sleeping in a Walmart parking lot it was what it was whatever, you know what I mean, like, um, that's just that was just part of it, you know. Um, And everybody in the band for the most part is um has ended up doing you know, kind of their own thing and uh in their own business. And I think all of us kind of had that that mentality of like this is, you know, this is our baby, and we want to see it grow and we want to nurture it. Uh. And we thought about it every day, um, you know for a decade, um. And then when that went away, you know, all of us are kind of doing our own thing now, I think, And I think that's one of the reasons why we were able to to, you know, maybe punish ourselves on some of those jobs and some of those uh things, because like, you know, it was it was we saw a little bit as like a business. We didn't necessarily treat it like a business because we definitely weren't good with money or keeping up with stuff like that or or anything. But uh, yeah, it was something that we wanted to see grow and we were extremely passionate about So yeah, we tucked it through a lot of stuff. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, and you guys, and I know this statement has been um, you know, echoed back to you many times, but you guys were, in my opinion, the definition of a band's band where you know, you guys got a lot of to our opportunities, not only because you people enjoyed being around you guys, and you guys were you know what I like to call an easy hang or it's like, oh yeah, I could say, dude, yeah, they're they're all they're all cool guys. Man, it's fun to hang out with. But on top of that, bands loved watching you guys play every night because the music was either um, you know, a departure from the usual package tours that existed or whatever. Um, did you you know, like, did you guys like recognize that pretty quickly as you know, tour offers like started to kind of come in or was that something that like you guys noticed kind of in retrospect after the band started to you know, to ur less and stuff like that. Um, No, No, we definitely knew knew that that was kind of the case, especially when The Rescue like that was I'd be like The Rescue was the first record where people really started taking notice of this, um and because it was it was a pretty out there from what we were doing, but we were still consider ourselves part of the you know, the hardcore scene or whatever. But it was like, let's just take that and you know, mix it with you know, brit pop and stuff that we were really into at the time and um and yeah and the weirdness of it or whatever. Really a lot of bands were like really into it for sure, um yeah. And to be honestly, that's one of the things to a certain extent that kind of made it hard because we I don't think we ever had a booking age at the entire time we existed, I don't think. But we were at by the end by the time we broke up, like we we could have stayed out on the road every day of the whole year if we wanted to, um, because it seemed like, I mean, we we were turning down so many, so many tours like we we were we had gotten really burned out at the very end. Uh, And I know the managers and labels were really not happy with us. But but we but so we were getting these offers um, and we were doing a lot of them, but financially they didn't pay all that well. But we were getting some great shows to play in front of a lot of people, um, which was really cool. Um. So it was kind of like a catch between two to where we could stay busy. Um. Even without it, I don't I still don't think we ever had a booking. Maybe one time we did, but but we were staying busy NonStop. But we weren't you know, we weren't making much money because you know, we weren't a huge straw or anything so um, so that we didn't we didn't. We were never paid all that much for some of those huge tours. But um, but it was a great opportunity, so you know, we did them. UM. So we were staying so busy it was ridiculous. But we were making almost nothing and coming home with nothing. So you know, it was like we we kind of we didn't really know what to do with that. Um. It was a weird situation to be and especially at the end when things went to like you know, the hot topic things and MTV and and that whole scene kind of turned into something crazy. Um, yeah, it was. It was the show is just you know, we're insanely big some of them, and um, but the crowds were extremely young, you know, the hot topic kids or whatever who her coming in on it with you know, what they see on TV or whatever. Uh. And we were way too weird. A lot of these tours that we did, like we were like way too weird, were creepy, creepy, creepy old dudes, I think for a lot of little kids. So we weren't we were playing for a lot of people, but we weren't really selling a whole lot of merch or anything. Uh. But it was a lot of fun. But it was kind of a catch twenty two because we uh, we were staying busy, but we weren't making a lot of money. And that really, uh was was wearing the band down as we were getting into adults. And you know, I've got a kid. I started missing tours at the very end because I now have a son, and like, uh, this has taken up all my time, which is great, and but I'm not I'm not able to pay my bills at once I get home, you know, because the kids aren't buying them, Marge, because we're this random, weird band that they don't care about. Yeah, sure, sure, Well I know, I think that's a really interesting thread to pull on because it's like, you know, most bands, um, you know, go around sort of you know, really looking for those you know, tour opportunities, feeling like, you know, if they just got this one tour or two tours, that their fortunes would switch around. And you guys, because you had all of these you know, really interesting, cool, dynamic opportunities where you're just like, oh, wow, like we get to do this, and wow we get to do that. Um Like, like that was exciting, and so I could easily see that sort of like carrot scenario of like oh man, well maybe this next one will change it for us or whatever or like, and but most bands don't even get to like have that opportunity. So you guys, you know, I'm sure you're having those conversations in your head where it's just like, man, like, yeah, we can stay busy for the next you know, twelve months or whatever, but like you know, like is any of this going to change anything? So I I, yeah, that's a weird scenario to in And I could tell you for without a doubt. For the most part, it didn't. And it was probably for us a waste of time. Uh, you know, even you know, keep fifteen under people night, I could tell you for us, for that crowd, especially at that time, praying where it was, you know, the hot thing on MTV, Like, it was a complete waste of time probably for us. I don't think we gained hardly any new fans doing those shows, uh for a lot of them anyway, and the ones that we turned down, I know, we probably wouldn't have made handy new fans on UM. But there were there were a few though here and there that that we're kind of surprising for us, UM and you know that we're like, you didn't expect it to be good, and it was amazing. So I'm not saying all of them were bad or by any means, but you know, when that whole thing started happening with that, when everything kind of went out of the basements and b f wie halls and you know, you know, and it started to get big and you start playing a nicer clubs and real clubs. Um, that's everything kind of got got a little weird. Um. I'm glad I got to see it and experience it, kind get caught up a little bit in it, you know what I mean. But yeah, it definitely wasn't um those we weren't writing music for those kids at all. That were you know, building up those huge venues. Yeah, for sure, And I totally get that. Um it did it did kind of feel like you know, as you guys, you know, did the rescue and kind of finish your business run with the music cartel. It felt like the move to equal vision was kind of the um alright, like and this is coming more so from sort of like the music industry band dude scenario where it's like, oh, like I think Code seven will have like that real shot now, like you know, they have a label that understands their identity, is able to kind of you know, put them in front of people who you know reasonably should like the band and stuff like that. Um, I'm guessing that was kind of the feel from you guys internally, where it's just like, okay, like you know this because I mean, you know that record was um you know, like there was a a lot of effort to put into it, even more so than maybe your previous stuff, just because you guys felt like you had that um, I guess platform to kind of share that on um am I was I Am I reading too much into that? Or did you guys feel like that was like the uh the larger platform that you could you know, maybe change things with. UM you know I think yeah for sure. UM yeah, Music Cartel. You know they ended up being the label that, like, I really didn't know a whole lot of the bands said they were signing you know what I mean, like and they did. They didn't have a big push for us. Most of everything that we we did and touring that was all us, you know what I mean? UM. And then Bambino, John Bambino and Jason wrote off. We eventually started working with them, uh and they really helped us out a lot, especially at the On the Rescue. UM. And they were the ones that really, uh you know, helped us start doing more touring while still in the Music Cartel and whatnot. UM. But yeah, yeah, and after The Rescue had finished up and we had teamed up with them for management, UM, that's when yeah, things got really crazy because we were done with our contract and those guys knew everybody. The next thing, I know, like every major label is coming out to the shows. You know, you know, it's the hot topic, error or whatever you want to call. MTV gets into the scene. So there's every every record label and now I was looking at you know, um this scene, you know, whatevery, and we were one of the bands that they were looking really hard at every label, I mean every freaking major label. I think there was one show at CBGBs where there was a representative from every pajor label there to see us at one show. And we're not to interart to train of thought, but like, was that, um, I guess we're you guys nervous about those opportunities or was it just like all kind of exciting and new Uh yeah, well that particularly show we blew. It was one of the worst shows we were to play, which is I guess that goes totally totally So yeah, I mean, and there was a lot I don't remember what there was, like two of two of the labels, the bigger labels. Uh that we're like really pretty, really interested, but nobody was really pulling the trigger. Um, they're kind of string this as long as how it felt like, um, and we were getting sick and tired of waiting around and we had kind of already done that once with the are Ache, and we were, um, it felt like we were they were kind of string this along a little bit, so we just we had we told our lawyer just canceled everything. And what she didn't want to do, I don't think anybody wanted us to do. It was like if it's a major label and you're telling to him, tell him no, thank you. Um and and then I think I remember maybe our lawyers said, well, who who do you want? What do you want to do? Then? And the first label we blurred out was like, well, Equasition, Like we knew Dan, we've known Dan for forever, and we thought that they were they were really out of all of the hardcore labels. They seemed very versatile and we were liking some of the stuff that they were doing. Um, so it was like, well, equal Vision and she made a call and I feel like within a few days there was contracts getting drawn up and we were on Equation. That's that's it was really weird how that worked out. Yeah, um, that's so yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, we told her like that was the label we really wanted to do. Uh, and yeah, that's and that's what we ended up doing. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um. And so you know, as the band started to you know, kind of wind down because of obviously all of those pressures that you're talking about from that perspective of the real life and you know, not being able to like figure out like hey I need to be able to like make rent and everything like that. Um, did you feel you know, the I guess, the void in the identity because you know, you had been known for so long as like oh, like you know John from Code seven, like oh yeah, yeah, like that's you know, that's who he is. Um. Did you feel that kind of like void within your life from that perspective of like, Okay, now I'm not going to be on the road and now I'm not going to be you know, creating music under this moniker and stuff like that. Or was it kind of a relief in certain respects you know? And it was both? It was it was it was It was definitely really hard to deal with, um, because there was always you know, whether or not everything with Coats was always going up. There was never a spot where it was started to go backwards, you know what I mean. So, and but to pull the rug out of that and which was like that was the only thing I had, Like I'd spent a decade, uh right out of high school and just doing that every day, uh, every hour, something in my head is thinking about Coat seven and to to pull that out, uh where that's the only thing you've concentrated on for for a decade, like that was that was really hard for sure, because like, yeah, I'm not I'm just like I have I don't know what I'm gonna do now, you know what I mean. I didn't go to college because I wanted to jump in a van um. And uh it was like, yeah, it was rough, but at the same time it was huge way. It was definitely it felt really good too. Uh So it was both like because it really did feel like a huge way off your shoulders. I'm not sure why, but um yeah, it definitely both sure. Yeah, yeah, it's like that that mixture of like it's you know, it's scary, it's exciting, um because I can you know, all of a sudden, I have the not only the the physical space and time to be able to like do something else, but then you know, freeze you up mentally as well, where it's like oh wow, I can think about life in a different way rather than like, oh jeez, I gotta leave for tour in another three weeks or something like that. Oh yeah, totally. Yeah. When you know, you there's something on the horizon, and there's always something on the horizon like it, you know, the things that you do in your everyday life, like I feel like, you know, it's like, well I would do this, but I've got this coming up. There's always this thing that's coming up. So yeah, maybe let's just let's you know, every decision you make in your everyody life, uh is affective by those things because you know, well this is all there's always something that's coming up that you've gotta do. Uh. And and to not have to do that was really was awesome. It was a good feeling for sure. Sure sure. Um And so I mean you you mentioned you have a fifteen year old son, and you know, towards the end of the touring experience, like you know, you were not participating because obviously you wanted to be present in your son's life, um, right, you know, And so as stuff started to kind of like boomerang back around with with Code seven, when you guys, you know, did the reunion show and you know you did the tour with Circa and stuff like that. Um, we're I guess were you and maybe this is just more so specifically to you than obviously the rest of the band. Were you scared that that thing was going to kind of like, you know, come back into your life in like a pretty real and substantial way or was it always kind of measured like, oh, yeah, we'll just do these two things and then that's kind of it. Um, Yeah, I mean it actually almost did come back to life because of that. Um with the when we went on the tour and it thinks we're going pretty good. You know, at the start of that tour, for sure, everyone was feeling good about it, you know, and we always we kind of went in so yeah, maybe, uh maybe if things go good, we'll write a little bit and see what happens, you know what, you know what I mean? But sure, um, and I think we even stopped by Equal Vision on that tour. Uh. It was still pretty early on in the tour, and you know, we talked to Dan it was like, yeah, I don't know, because we were still I guess technically under a contract because we we only did one record, uh with with Equal Vision and we bolted. Uh. I don't even know how many records we signed with him, but I know we were goads having still technically under contract with him, and and yeah, Dan was like, yeah, if you guys are really wanting to do this, like you know, so you know, we knew there was an option. Equal Vision seemed like they were uh into putting it out if we were wanting to do another record. Um. But by the time we finished the tour and it was over, we were like, you know what, let's let's just keep this in bed, you know, like that's all it took was uh, you know, a few more weeks on the road, and it was like, oh, yeah, now remember while we broke up, right, Yeah, we don't need to do this right now. Yeah, yeah, I don't really want to get back into this mode. But at the beginning of the tour, we were we were we were pretty into the idea, um, and yeah, it definitely kind of came close. But yeah, by the end we were just like, yeah, let's just let's just leave it, leave it dead, yeah for sure. And I know that that um, you know, like as people start to I guess kind of you know, matriculate out of like the band that they you know, were known for and stuff like that, and then you know, do other projects because I know you guys did tell us screen there for a little bit as well. Um, you know what I guess kind of keeps you sort of um, you know engaged in uh you know, I guess paying attention to you know, this this scene and the style of music and stuff like that. Um, is that something that you, um that's just kind of like hard boiled in you or you know, has your um, you know, attention spand kind of waned as you you know obviously have other obligations to kind of you know, attend to and stuff like that. How has that relationship been you know for you obviously since you haven't you know, been active in it as far as the touring capacity, right, UM No, I still, uh for sure, I keep up with it, I think, Uh, right after the band broke up, I probably I didn't for a while. And I feel like when the band was together, to be honest with you, like there was a lot of the new stuff that was happening that I wasn't even aware of a lot of bands that were coming up that um, because we were so into what course Evan was doing, like we weren't really paying attention to to what what else was going on, you know what I mean? Um, And then after the band, I probably did and I wasn't uh don't the scene in general, at least the parts where I feel like we ended up uh touring with uh that that um I I don't know what the word of the genre you would call it, but um, you know, it wasn't something that we really listened to and it seemed like a lot of it was going that way, uh, and we weren't really yeah you know you know what I mean. So like we didn't really keep up with that part of it at all, but like you know, like I still we still definitely keep up with a scene and uh, but not the big stuff, you know what I mean? Like, uh, you know I saw Birds in Row not too long ago and loved it, like you know that that's the type of stuff like that's you know, that's why you know we got into this is you know, bands like that, you know what I mean? Like, um, uh, you know I just saw New Roses a couple of weeks ago to my son to see them, um, which I haven't seen them since, like n or something. I don't know why it took so long, but I really wanted my son to see him because he's gotten really into a lot of the same music that I like. Uh, and he has shown me a lot of stuff, like, uh of music that I didn't know about, um for sure for sure. But yeah, totally keep up like that. You know that I consider I think for for most of us. But like that's that scene and whatnot. Like it, it's just it's kind of like definitely kind of who we are, Like that's how I how I see everything kind of revolves around like that ideology and whatnot, you know what I mean. Well, like I may not be active in it or go to as many shows, um, but yeah, it's definitely part of the DNA for sure. Well and it's exciting too that you can be influenced by you know, like your son showing new stuff and like that's uh, you know, that's pretty exciting to be like, oh, yes, like here's another you know, collaborator, Like I can show him stuff and he can show me stuff and yeah, I wasn't yeah that you weren't expecting that at some point, but it's just like that's cool if that exists. No, it's it blows my mind. Like he's got he's went through my whole catalog and he actually listens to it. Like if my dad had done that with me, you know, forget about it. You know, I wouldn't went the opposite direction totally. You're like, I am not even participating in any of this, right exactly. Oh but wait, Dannan, Yeah exactly, dude, I can't. I cannot like the music that my dad likes. That is so lame. Yeah, I know it totally. I don't. I still can't figure that out. But I don't. I don't tell him that. I just go with it and hope that and I think he is going to stick with it, like he's even getting into he was more metal, uh and progressive. He really liked, you know, the more progressive stuff. But like he's been. He was like just the other days like have you heard the new Counterparts song? Um? So I was like, okay, okay, all right, thanks for these? Are these are good? Yeah? Totally it's a yeah, a lot of Cardcore is still alive. It's beautiful. I love it totally totally. Uh. The last thing I already hit on him was the like you mentioned, I mean as the band was dissolving. Um, you know, you and your brother you know, have done have worked together obviously when you were in the band, and you know, you and your brother you know have been doing you know, a variety of different businesses since you guys have obviously you know, ramped the band down and stuff like that. Um, I'm guessing that you know, kind of evolving into a you know, business aspect rather than just kind of be you know, sort of creative component of what it takes obviously put together a band. Um, you guys, like, do you think there's any way that you can like work I guess separately from each other? Um Like, And I don't mean that in a like oh like you guys are you know, like because you're twins you can't separate or whatever. But it just seems like you guys have such a good um to use a horrible business from like synergy. So we we have we have the uh uh like you know, let's just say we want the same things, you know, you know what I mean, whether it's in music or or you know, like I don't you know, I don't want to boss. You know, he doesn't want to boss either, But I know no one wants a boss, but like you know, we're we're willing to to, you know, to try to find a way to not have to have one, you know, and we haven't had one in in probably a decade now, I guess, um, you know, and we we want the same things, uh. In the in the business, I feel like, um, you know, starting something and try to build and grow it in a very it's very similar to a band, um, I think. And we haven't been very active in writing music. Uh. And I think a lot of it is because some of the satisfactions that we got out of music I can still kind of get, or that we get and um uh in in trying to run a small business. Um and Eric has a brewery and he's about to up in a second bar, you know. Uh, and Matt's been mastering and all of us sort of kind of gone down our own path that I think we get similar. It's definitely not the same. It's probably not quite as good as being getting to really be creative with music, but like I think it kind of keeps us uh somewhat satisfied. I guess because we haven't been very active since uh tail screen was kind of active, but we none of us have really done anything since then. Um, and maybe that's partly because of it, I'm not sure. Yeah. Well, I mean the idea of you know, building you know, a business, no matter how large or small the ambitions are. You know, it can feel obviously very similar to doing what a you know, the same sort of work and machinations of what a band is. And so I could easily see the um why why that would be like, well, yeah, like this, this feels like this is my creative output now as opposed to you know, getting upon stage and playing bass or whatever. Yeah, I mean totally and we tried. I think all of us have tried to do the band stuff and I'm totally hoping to do I say it every year as I'm gonna get through the holiday season and this is going to be the year and it doesn't happen. But um, the desires there. Oh, it's so much like like, there's so much creativity. I think it's being built up like I could do something pretty quick. But um, I don't like the idea of like, uh and I tried it. I did try it once with a band, uh to where like oh, every Wednesday you get up for a couple of hours after work and you know, drink e spirit and try to write some music. And and I tried that, and I just did not like that at all. I don't, you know, I didn't. I want to put everything into it, you know what I mean, like, um, the idea of just casually doing it, and like, you know, like I want to. I want to write something. If I'm gonna take the time to write music, I want to. And and it's how the Coats haven't. How we thought as a band was like, let's push things farther. Let's really try to do something that's like it's going to be different and gonna make people think a little bit, and like really try like and you know, because just writing some songs it's not that hard. But to write something that that we're that I'm happy with anyway, it takes a lot of work and I want to devote every second of every day for months, uh thinking about it, which is how we did back in the day. Um, and like that, I just don't have the time to do that right now. Um, so I think, so I I really don't want to do it if I can't do it the way that I want to do it. I really I tried. I tried the whole Wednesday night practice and it just wentn't for me. Yeah. Well, I mean in the same way that like bands that um you know, are able to like write over the internet and send riffs back and forth on drop Box and like do that. Like you know, that can work for some people, but then other creative collaborations like that just won't work. And so yeah, you know, you know, especially as you get older, it's like you know yourself where it's like, oh, yeah, this is how I know I can be successful in this, and like, yeah, it's just you know, it's not the time of the place right now. So I completely shander you're coming from. Yeah, I want to if I'm gonna do it, I really want to try, you know what I mean. I don't want to do it because like I have this urge to get on stage, uh you know and get free beer. You know, I really want to like put my best foot forward, and if I can't do that, I'd rather not do it, you know what I mean. Yeah, I think a lot of people maybe they don't feel that way, but I think for me, for James, I think as well, Um, yeah, like it's it's really it's a passion. We're extremely passion about music and writing, and like the idea of not putting everything into it. Um, yeah, I just don't really want to do that. I don't want to put it out anything with my name on it that it doesn't didn't have everything put into you know what I mean? Yeah, oh no, I totally get it. Well, there you have it. That is the definitive history, as spoken by John Tuttle in his experience with Code seven. But it was also just really nice to get to know him a little bit more because you know, like I said, played a few shows with him, um and his band and there. You know, sometimes these relationships developed very very quickly, and then other people it's like cool, I get to know you and a hang out with you a little bit, but then um, you know, no follow up after that. It's kind of honestly, it's kind of like how people in sort of the entertainment industry in Hollywood. Um, you know, you do a movie with person, you have a really intense experience, and then you don't see him again for ten years, and that's a that's kind of what that's like. Playing in bands, you know, really intensive experiences and then you move right along. But and that's not a bad or good thing. That's just you know, that's the way that life is. But next month or next month, next week is the conclusion of our North Carolina month, and we have Johnny Smurdell, who is the bassist from Beloved and he also played an Advent. I just I adore both of those bands, and I was really excited to have Johnny on the show because, yeah, I you know, we got to talk about a lot of stuff that I was always curious about because you know, both particularly Beloved, they had such an interesting impact on you know, sort of a lot of hardcore and heavy music that a lot of people just you know, came and went really really quickly, you know, only one LP and one EP, so that's what we got next week. And I think he was always to Bridge nine and Rockabilly for supporting the show and until then, be safe, everybody. Hi there. I'm Zach Braff and I'm Donald Phason. We're real life best friends, but we met playing fake life best friends Turk and j D on the sitcom Scrubs. Twenty years later, we've decided to rewatch the series, one episode at a time and put our memories into a podcast. You can listen to at home. We're Gonna Get all our special guest friends like Sarah Chalk, John c McGinley, Neil Flynn, Judy Reyes, show creator Bill Lawrence, editors, writers, and even prop masters would tell us about what inspired the series and how we became a family. You can listen to the podcast Fake Doctors, Real Friends with Zack and Donald on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, and wherever you get your podcasts.