How Do You Love Without Being Attached? | Kevin Griffin

WEBVTT
1
00:00:03.730 --> 00:00:11.570
This is the 10% Happier Podcast. I'm Dan Harris. Hey, hey,
2
00:00:11.609 --> 00:00:15.460
we're tackling some thorny Dharma questions on the show today.
3
00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:18.039
This is stuff that can trip a lot of us
4
00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:21.280
up pretty badly, actually. For example, how do you love
5
00:00:21.339 --> 00:00:25.260
somebody without being attached? Or how do you love yourself
6
00:00:26.059 --> 00:00:29.739
when the self is allegedly an illusion? We're going to
7
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:32.020
get into these questions and much, much more with my
8
00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:35.679
guest today, who's a repeat customer. His name is Kevin Griffin.
9
00:00:36.140 --> 00:00:38.439
The first time Kevin was on this show, we talked
10
00:00:38.460 --> 00:00:41.299
a lot about the nature of craving and addiction. I
11
00:00:41.340 --> 00:00:44.990
enjoyed that conversation immensely. Apparently, you did as well because
12
00:00:45.070 --> 00:00:48.409
the numbers were awesome. So we're bringing him back on.
13
00:00:48.530 --> 00:00:48.969
Kevin, welcome.
14
00:00:49.609 --> 00:00:53.109
For the uninitiated, is both a longtime Buddhist practitioner and
15
00:00:53.149 --> 00:00:56.880
also a 12-step participant. This time he's back with a
16
00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:02.759
semi-skeptical take on loving kindness, that venerable, if somewhat misunderstood,
17
00:01:02.859 --> 00:01:07.439
Buddhist concept and practice. Our conversation really is going to
18
00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:10.890
center around a book that Kevin wrote called Living Kindness,
19
00:01:11.230 --> 00:01:14.790
Buddhist Teachings for a Troubled World. Kevin's book is actually
20
00:01:14.810 --> 00:01:18.489
being re-released this month with a slightly new title, Living
21
00:01:18.579 --> 00:01:22.620
Kindness Metapractice for the Whole of Our Lives. So we
22
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:24.480
thought it would be a great time to share this
23
00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:28.920
episode again right here on this feed. In this conversation,
24
00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:32.879
we talk about the difference between loving kindness and living kindness,
25
00:01:33.500 --> 00:01:36.959
the dangers of modern loving kindness practice. He argues that
26
00:01:37.000 --> 00:01:39.689
if it stays on the cushion, it's focused on a feeling,
27
00:01:40.489 --> 00:01:43.849
and feelings are, of course, impermanent. We also talk about
28
00:01:43.870 --> 00:01:46.230
the idea that you don't have to feel love all
29
00:01:46.250 --> 00:01:48.569
of the time, but you can still seek to handle
30
00:01:48.629 --> 00:01:52.810
situations with this. And this is very much a non-malefluous
31
00:01:53.290 --> 00:01:57.129
Buddhist way of saying it, but non-ill will. And we
32
00:01:57.170 --> 00:02:01.290
talk about a Buddhist text called the Metta Sutta. I
33
00:02:01.329 --> 00:02:03.950
do want to note that the interview does include brief
34
00:02:04.019 --> 00:02:08.180
references to addiction. So heads up on that. Having said that,
35
00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:17.449
we'll get started with Kevin Griffin right after this. Kevin Griffin,
36
00:02:17.490 --> 00:02:18.330
welcome back to the show.
37
00:02:18.689 --> 00:02:21.849
Thank you, Dan. Thanks for having me back. I'm amazed.
38
00:02:21.949 --> 00:02:24.069
I assumed, you know, I'd be on the blacklist after
39
00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:27.759
my last time. I always assume the worst, so that's me.
40
00:02:29.180 --> 00:02:31.580
Oh, that might be a subject for discussion. We could
41
00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:37.180
do it another time. So we're talking about love and
42
00:02:37.219 --> 00:02:40.090
kindness today, and I know we're going to get into
43
00:02:40.490 --> 00:02:44.139
your view of what Some of us may kind of
44
00:02:44.180 --> 00:02:46.819
get wrong about this. But before we get into what
45
00:02:46.860 --> 00:02:50.020
we may get wrong about it, for the uninitiated, how
46
00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:55.659
would you describe love and kindness or metta, M-E-T-T-A, practice?
47
00:02:55.819 --> 00:03:00.509
What is it? So metta practice, as opposed to just
48
00:03:00.629 --> 00:03:01.629
metta itself.
49
00:03:02.569 --> 00:03:03.469
Either or both.
50
00:03:04.330 --> 00:03:07.990
Well, I mean, see, that's even a really important distinction
51
00:03:08.069 --> 00:03:11.840
for me. So there's a traditional metta practice. We call
52
00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:14.080
it traditional. The Buddha did not teach it, but it
53
00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:20.759
comes from, I think, about 500 AD, the Vasudhimagga, the
54
00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:25.139
path of purification, which was a commentary on the teachings
55
00:03:25.180 --> 00:03:29.759
of the Buddha. And in that, we find this practice,
56
00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:33.409
which really was made most famous by Sharon Salzberg, who
57
00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:37.909
I know you know well. And it's a very intentional
58
00:03:37.990 --> 00:03:44.090
way of of trying to develop loving feelings. And it
59
00:03:44.310 --> 00:03:49.530
uses phrases where you repeat phrases. Typically, may I be happy?
60
00:03:49.610 --> 00:03:51.629
May I be peaceful? May I be safe? May you
61
00:03:51.669 --> 00:03:54.210
be happy? May you be peaceful? May you be safe?
62
00:03:54.689 --> 00:03:57.129
And there are many other variations on the phrases, but
63
00:03:57.610 --> 00:04:01.310
along those lines. So they're just noticing that they are
64
00:04:01.349 --> 00:04:06.879
not sort of exactly prayers and they're not demands, but
65
00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:12.090
they're sort of requests. The systematic part, besides the phrases,
66
00:04:12.379 --> 00:04:17.129
is that we go through different categories of people, starting
67
00:04:17.149 --> 00:04:20.490
with the self, not necessarily, often starting with the self.
68
00:04:20.529 --> 00:04:24.329
Some people prefer to start with something easier, like your cat,
69
00:04:24.550 --> 00:04:27.500
you know, which is not a person, I guess, but
70
00:04:28.810 --> 00:04:31.899
could be helpful, easy one to feel love towards. So
71
00:04:31.939 --> 00:04:34.339
we kind of start with the easy ones and then
72
00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:38.050
work with our dear ones and And then work with
73
00:04:38.269 --> 00:04:40.750
what we call neutral people, which is just sort of
74
00:04:40.769 --> 00:04:47.430
like everybody that you don't know, essentially. And then into
75
00:04:47.529 --> 00:04:51.769
difficult people. And often it's just you pick one difficult person.
76
00:04:53.310 --> 00:04:58.790
And so after you've gone through those categories, repeating these
77
00:04:58.850 --> 00:05:01.850
phrases and kind of feeling the breath in your body
78
00:05:02.189 --> 00:05:04.740
and feeling the breath in your heart center in the
79
00:05:04.829 --> 00:05:07.110
middle of the chest, So you're trying to kind of
80
00:05:07.170 --> 00:05:11.709
connect with this feeling. And once you go through those categories,
81
00:05:11.750 --> 00:05:14.930
then you do a practice they call radiating, just sort
82
00:05:14.949 --> 00:05:18.819
of radiating loving kindness out to all beings ultimately. And
83
00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:21.160
I like to do that in sort of a almost
84
00:05:21.819 --> 00:05:26.480
geographical way, imagining where I live, my neighborhood, and then
85
00:05:26.540 --> 00:05:30.519
my city, and then outward, you know, around the planet.
86
00:05:31.490 --> 00:05:35.329
And you can do the whole universe if you're, you know, ambitious.
87
00:05:36.259 --> 00:05:41.019
So it's very systematic and fairly simple in terms of
88
00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.000
how it's done. And what I think, one of the
89
00:05:43.019 --> 00:05:45.790
things that's very appealing about it is that it gives
90
00:05:45.850 --> 00:05:49.009
us something very specific to do, you know, because a
91
00:05:49.050 --> 00:05:50.569
lot of times when you're just trying to follow your
92
00:05:50.610 --> 00:05:53.509
breath or just try to be mindful, it's hard to
93
00:05:54.250 --> 00:05:56.790
figure out what am I doing? Like the breath that
94
00:05:56.829 --> 00:06:01.779
seems so ephemeral, you know, like you're kind of drifting around.
95
00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:06.259
But so the meta form, really helps the mind, I think,
96
00:06:06.300 --> 00:06:09.980
to stay focused, which is, again, one of its values,
97
00:06:10.060 --> 00:06:11.579
one of its peripheral values.
98
00:06:12.620 --> 00:06:16.699
So that's the practice. But you made a distinction between
99
00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:19.399
the practice and the quality of mind.
100
00:06:20.120 --> 00:06:24.550
Yeah. So my book, Living Kindness, kind of goes through this,
101
00:06:25.170 --> 00:06:28.370
is what was the Buddha really talking about? And are
102
00:06:28.410 --> 00:06:30.949
we getting it right? And in what ways are we
103
00:06:30.990 --> 00:06:33.769
getting it I don't even like to say wrong, but
104
00:06:34.110 --> 00:06:40.060
are we missing something? And so just the word loving
105
00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:44.500
kindness or the compound loving kindness is sort of awkward
106
00:06:44.579 --> 00:06:49.720
to start with and confusing because if it's love, why
107
00:06:49.740 --> 00:06:52.579
do you have to add kindness to it? And then,
108
00:06:52.620 --> 00:06:55.589
of course, we realize, well, because in our language, in
109
00:06:55.629 --> 00:06:57.790
our culture, love can mean a lot of different things
110
00:06:57.829 --> 00:07:02.579
that aren't about kindness, you know? They can be about sex.
111
00:07:03.180 --> 00:07:06.639
They can be about desire. It can be about, you know,
112
00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:10.970
food or, you know, your latest Netflix show. So we
113
00:07:11.029 --> 00:07:17.069
add kindness to clarify that. So, okay, but that still
114
00:07:17.149 --> 00:07:21.610
sort of doesn't explain too much to me. So I
115
00:07:21.629 --> 00:07:25.800
go back to the suttas, the early Buddhist teachings, to
116
00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:29.240
try to see what the Buddha's talking about. And this
117
00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:36.769
is where... For me, it becomes interesting because so much
118
00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:39.180
of what the Buddha talked about when he was talking
119
00:07:39.220 --> 00:07:45.120
about loving kindness was not loving kindness. It was non,
120
00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:48.879
what he would call, non-ill will. And so you have
121
00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:52.579
a typical, like we run into these phrases in the
122
00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:57.769
suttas that are sort of, what? What's he mean by that?
123
00:07:57.889 --> 00:08:00.050
Why is he even saying that? Why doesn't he just
124
00:08:00.089 --> 00:08:05.050
say love? And that then opens up a whole kind
125
00:08:05.089 --> 00:08:10.420
of area to think about. First of all, that the
126
00:08:10.449 --> 00:08:14.819
heart of the Buddhist teaching is about letting go. So
127
00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:19.019
if he says, you should love people, it's sort of
128
00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:24.439
creating the potential for craving and for attachment. So instead
129
00:08:24.459 --> 00:08:28.899
of that, he says, just don't hate people. It's an
130
00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:36.320
interesting distinction, because it I find it difficult to get
131
00:08:36.399 --> 00:08:43.690
that motivated necessarily to love everybody. I can have compassion
132
00:08:43.730 --> 00:08:46.450
and kind of a broad sense of caring for the world.
133
00:08:47.590 --> 00:08:50.490
But again, this word love sort of suggests that I'm
134
00:08:50.509 --> 00:08:54.370
supposed to feel something kind of juicy and warm and affectionate.
135
00:08:56.090 --> 00:08:59.250
You know, and that comes and goes. So if I'm
136
00:08:59.289 --> 00:09:03.240
supposed to be feeling love, well, Number one thing we
137
00:09:03.279 --> 00:09:06.539
know about feelings is that they are impermanent. So I'm
138
00:09:06.629 --> 00:09:10.990
putting myself into this sort of losing proposition already by saying,
139
00:09:11.330 --> 00:09:13.590
I'm going to cultivate loving kindness for all beings and
140
00:09:13.629 --> 00:09:15.929
I'm going to feel love for all beings. That means
141
00:09:15.970 --> 00:09:17.690
that a lot of the time I'm going to feel
142
00:09:17.730 --> 00:09:21.379
that I'm failing. That I'm going to be coming up short.
143
00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:23.519
I'm not going to be able to feel that all
144
00:09:23.570 --> 00:09:26.090
the time. So then what do I do? Do I
145
00:09:26.149 --> 00:09:29.070
feel bad about myself? Then I'm doing the opposite of
146
00:09:29.110 --> 00:09:31.049
what I'm supposed to be doing, right? So if I
147
00:09:31.110 --> 00:09:33.830
put that aside necessarily as my goal and just say,
148
00:09:33.870 --> 00:09:37.570
what if I can practice non-ill will? Oh, well, that's
149
00:09:37.629 --> 00:09:43.879
about letting go, right? And that's more natural to me
150
00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:46.590
in my practice, right? Because it's kind of what I'm
151
00:09:46.649 --> 00:09:49.519
taught from the beginning of my meditation practice is to
152
00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:53.799
let go. There is something kind of like, oh, you know,
153
00:09:53.820 --> 00:09:55.669
I'm taught so much about letting go. And then somebody
154
00:09:55.690 --> 00:09:57.230
comes in and says, oh, now we want you to
155
00:09:57.950 --> 00:10:00.919
add this thing, cultivate this thing. I mean, it's a
156
00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.769
beautiful practice and you can have beautiful experiences with it,
157
00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:08.399
but we can't hold on to those experiences. So I
158
00:10:08.419 --> 00:10:11.700
think it's really valuable to do the loving kindness practice,
159
00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:17.379
but then to take it beyond that and use it
160
00:10:18.179 --> 00:10:23.690
really as an insight practice. That is, what you see
161
00:10:23.850 --> 00:10:26.730
through doing the loving-kindness practice is what you want to
162
00:10:26.769 --> 00:10:31.730
carry with you that isn't so much impermanent. Our insights
163
00:10:31.809 --> 00:10:34.629
are things that we can sort of arouse in a moment,
164
00:10:34.669 --> 00:10:37.470
just like, oh, how do I want to think about this?
165
00:10:37.529 --> 00:10:40.210
How do I want to handle this situation? Oh, I
166
00:10:40.750 --> 00:10:43.200
want to handle it with kindness. I want to handle
167
00:10:43.250 --> 00:10:46.980
it with non-ill will. And so I don't have to
168
00:10:47.019 --> 00:10:52.870
necessarily feel love towards someone. but I can act then
169
00:10:53.149 --> 00:10:56.690
more skillfully, which is why I came up with this term,
170
00:10:56.909 --> 00:10:57.769
living kindness.
171
00:10:58.490 --> 00:11:00.250
I think it might be worth saying more about this
172
00:11:00.590 --> 00:11:04.230
distinction that exists in your mind between living kindness and
173
00:11:04.289 --> 00:11:04.970
loving kindness.
174
00:11:05.049 --> 00:11:10.710
Yeah. Yeah. So the first distinction is this distinction between
175
00:11:11.649 --> 00:11:17.269
doing a meditation practice and then the rest of your life,
176
00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:22.799
which is, Again, we know it can be great to meditate,
177
00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:25.500
and hopefully it's not always, but you can have these
178
00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:30.769
wonderful moments. But the real challenge for most of us
179
00:11:31.289 --> 00:11:33.230
is what do we do with that at the end
180
00:11:33.250 --> 00:11:35.129
of the retreat or at the end of the sitting?
181
00:11:35.750 --> 00:11:39.809
When I put the spiritual book down and walk into
182
00:11:39.850 --> 00:11:43.620
the kitchen and face a pile of dishes, how do
183
00:11:43.659 --> 00:11:48.679
I take this practice into my life that's realistic? you know, because,
184
00:11:49.080 --> 00:11:51.899
and I guess for me, it's not realistic to just
185
00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:56.870
walk around, you know, I love everybody. Everything is peace
186
00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:00.889
and joy. You know, it's, you know, I've had those moments,
187
00:12:01.590 --> 00:12:04.590
they come and go again. And so it's, how can
188
00:12:04.649 --> 00:12:09.509
I apply this? And so, so then there are these
189
00:12:10.370 --> 00:12:15.070
simple ideas, maybe simple, I don't know, sometimes very challenging,
190
00:12:15.110 --> 00:12:18.570
but But ideas that the Buddha is putting forth, there's
191
00:12:18.610 --> 00:12:23.070
a beautiful one in one of the suttas where the
192
00:12:23.090 --> 00:12:27.539
Buddha is asking one of his monks how he practices
193
00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:32.000
kind of in a harmonious way with these other monks
194
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:34.899
that he's living with. And they're kind of on a retreat,
195
00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:39.259
like the three of them out in the forest. And
196
00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:40.759
the Buddha is saying the phrase is, how do you
197
00:12:40.850 --> 00:12:45.820
blend like milk and water? And the monk Anuruddha says,
198
00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:50.159
I think to myself, why not put aside what I
199
00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:53.539
wish to do and do what these venerable ones wish
200
00:12:53.590 --> 00:12:59.070
to do? Well, that kind of epitomizes like living kindness
201
00:12:59.110 --> 00:13:03.230
to me, putting aside my own desires in the moment
202
00:13:03.350 --> 00:13:06.669
and doing things for someone else. And I actually came
203
00:13:06.750 --> 00:13:09.980
upon that sutta when my daughter was just like a
204
00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:14.889
toddler and And I thought, oh, this is parenting. This
205
00:13:14.950 --> 00:13:16.789
is exactly what you do as a parent. Put aside
206
00:13:16.830 --> 00:13:19.629
what I wish to do and do what this venerable one,
207
00:13:19.700 --> 00:13:24.059
this venerable two-year-old needs me to do. And that was
208
00:13:24.139 --> 00:13:27.960
very inspiring for me because, you know, if you're a
209
00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:32.659
serious meditator and you have kids, which I think you've
210
00:13:33.019 --> 00:13:36.820
had this experience, they can kind of intrude. They might
211
00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:42.100
seem to be intruding on your practice. And when you realize, oh, no,
212
00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:46.399
my practice is to take care of this venerable one,
213
00:13:46.850 --> 00:13:49.250
is to put aside what I wish to do, that
214
00:13:49.470 --> 00:13:53.809
I am practicing loving kindness when I do that. Oh,
215
00:13:54.590 --> 00:13:57.769
that's a gift to me. It's like, oh, okay, right.
216
00:13:57.789 --> 00:14:01.149
Because we can turn our practice into this precious little
217
00:14:01.629 --> 00:14:05.750
thing of like, oh, it's this meditation. And when I'm
218
00:14:05.769 --> 00:14:09.399
in these particular states, you know, and I'm feeling all
219
00:14:09.419 --> 00:14:13.279
this love, That's my practice. The rest of my life,
220
00:14:13.740 --> 00:14:14.360
not so much.
221
00:14:15.539 --> 00:14:19.799
The way the Buddha talks about love or loving kindness,
222
00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:22.340
and I guess we could parse those words, might be
223
00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:24.360
worth doing that at some point. But the way he
224
00:14:24.379 --> 00:14:29.490
talks about metta, at least, it seems at times inaccessible
225
00:14:29.529 --> 00:14:31.470
to me. You have a quote from the Buddha that
226
00:14:31.509 --> 00:14:35.419
you've highlighted in your book. where he said, even if
227
00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:38.580
your limbs are being sawed off by bandits, if a
228
00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:41.480
thought of ill will arises in the mind, you are
229
00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:42.980
not practicing what I teach.
230
00:14:43.000 --> 00:14:47.960
Yeah. One of my favorite lines, just because it's so,
231
00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:51.080
I don't know, I guess I'm kind of perverse in
232
00:14:51.139 --> 00:14:55.659
some way. It seems so ridiculous. And it certainly will
233
00:14:55.759 --> 00:15:00.730
undercut any spiritual pride we might have, you know, any
234
00:15:00.769 --> 00:15:04.559
spiritual ego. If we think we have evolved, to the
235
00:15:04.620 --> 00:15:08.710
point of being enlightened in some way. All we have
236
00:15:08.750 --> 00:15:11.389
to do is ask someone to start sawing off our
237
00:15:11.450 --> 00:15:15.190
limbs and see how we handle it. So, you know,
238
00:15:15.210 --> 00:15:21.389
I talked to one of my monastic teachers, Ajahn Pasano,
239
00:15:21.429 --> 00:15:24.649
who actually was really kind enough to help me with
240
00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:28.549
this manuscript. And he takes more of an attitude of
241
00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:36.929
this is more symbolic, that it's not. And maybe. I mean,
242
00:15:36.970 --> 00:15:41.009
he should know more than I do. But it was interesting.
243
00:15:41.029 --> 00:15:45.940
I was teaching this sutta to some college students at
244
00:15:45.980 --> 00:15:49.860
a Catholic college where I sometimes do a little teaching.
245
00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:53.590
And in the middle of offering it, I realized, oh,
246
00:15:53.629 --> 00:15:56.389
this is kind of the story of Christ on the cross.
247
00:15:58.309 --> 00:16:00.519
I thought, that's really interesting. What am I going to
248
00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.059
do with that? Because before that, I thought, well, no
249
00:16:03.139 --> 00:16:05.679
one could do this. Then I thought, well, that's actually
250
00:16:06.299 --> 00:16:11.519
sort of an archetype of Western spirituality, of the Judeo-Christian
251
00:16:11.620 --> 00:16:16.809
tradition of this person being crucified and saying, forgive them, Lord,
252
00:16:17.129 --> 00:16:19.580
they know not what they've done, you know. I think
253
00:16:19.620 --> 00:16:22.320
he also has some complaints to God after that. I'm
254
00:16:22.610 --> 00:16:25.509
not sure which comes first, the why have you forsaken me?
255
00:16:25.929 --> 00:16:30.210
But we do have this ideal here. So maybe it's
256
00:16:30.429 --> 00:16:37.269
not so unrealistic. There's another story of a Chinese monk
257
00:16:38.029 --> 00:16:41.950
who was attacked by the Red Guard. I guess this
258
00:16:41.990 --> 00:16:46.460
was in the 60s. And he was like in his
259
00:16:46.980 --> 00:16:49.590
80s or something. And All his students ran away. He
260
00:16:49.809 --> 00:16:51.750
stayed in the monastery and the Red Guard came and
261
00:16:51.789 --> 00:16:54.409
beat him nearly to death. And when his students came
262
00:16:54.450 --> 00:16:57.669
back to the monastery, they found him and they were
263
00:16:57.700 --> 00:17:01.700
saying to him, it's okay. It seems like you're trying
264
00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:04.660
to hang on to your life and don't hold on
265
00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:08.559
to your life for us. And he said, I'm not
266
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:10.670
holding on to my life for you. I'm holding on
267
00:17:10.690 --> 00:17:13.509
to it for those Red Guards because the karma for
268
00:17:13.529 --> 00:17:16.529
them would be just too terrible if I were to die.
269
00:17:17.349 --> 00:17:21.269
And so he recovered and apparently lived quite a few
270
00:17:21.309 --> 00:17:26.990
more years afterward. So another sort of model of this
271
00:17:27.650 --> 00:17:33.809
just unimaginable compassion and forgiveness. I try to take the
272
00:17:33.849 --> 00:17:38.829
Buddhist teachings as literally as possible and accept my own
273
00:17:38.950 --> 00:17:43.049
shortcomings in regard to them and say, whether the Buddha
274
00:17:43.089 --> 00:17:45.329
meant this or not, I know I can't do that.
275
00:17:46.210 --> 00:17:49.349
I can't be that person, but that's okay. I don't
276
00:17:49.390 --> 00:17:54.980
have to be that person. I'm not perfect. I'm not enlightened.
277
00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:59.720
I have this vision, and I think spiritual teachings are
278
00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:04.339
often about an idealized vision. Enlightenment itself is a kind
279
00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:09.430
of idealized vision that really, you know, what is it?
280
00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:13.339
Is it real? I think one of the things that
281
00:18:13.420 --> 00:18:18.210
keeps us motivated on our path is to have these
282
00:18:18.730 --> 00:18:22.619
visions of some kind of perfection. And maybe the humility
283
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:26.880
of knowing you're not achieving it is something healthy.
284
00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:30.900
So we can look at enlightenment, which is classically defined
285
00:18:30.940 --> 00:18:33.430
as the uprooting of greed, hatred, and delusion. Or we
286
00:18:33.470 --> 00:18:37.150
can look at loving kindness, which the bar has been
287
00:18:37.210 --> 00:18:39.529
set by the Buddha of not feeling any ill will
288
00:18:39.549 --> 00:18:42.819
while somebody's sawing off your limbs. We can look at
289
00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:47.160
this as... We might look at the speed with which
290
00:18:47.660 --> 00:18:52.940
Michael Phelps swims a lap as part of the extreme
291
00:18:53.019 --> 00:18:56.240
end of the human repertoire, but shouldn't discourage us from
292
00:18:56.339 --> 00:18:57.079
trying to swim.
293
00:18:57.099 --> 00:19:02.009
Yeah, fair enough. I think that's a good analogy. I
294
00:19:02.069 --> 00:19:04.289
also like to come back to something very simple, which
295
00:19:04.349 --> 00:19:07.369
is why I like this idea of just non-ill will,
296
00:19:07.869 --> 00:19:12.509
you know, that's a nice sort of ideal to live
297
00:19:12.569 --> 00:19:16.390
toward is, can I just not Have ill will. There's
298
00:19:16.819 --> 00:19:20.460
one of the interesting pieces in the Vasudha Magga that
299
00:19:21.339 --> 00:19:24.839
I talked about where this form of meditation comes from.
300
00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:30.779
You know, when you get to the meditation of sending
301
00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:37.470
loving kindness to the difficult person, many people obviously have
302
00:19:37.829 --> 00:19:42.730
trouble with that. And the Vasudha Magga actually suggests rather
303
00:19:42.769 --> 00:19:46.720
than trying to feel love for this difficult person or
304
00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:50.500
this enemy, they sometimes call it. just try to make
305
00:19:50.579 --> 00:19:55.019
them into a neutral person. And I like that one too,
306
00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.640
because it's again, kind of like, oh, here's something I
307
00:19:58.660 --> 00:20:02.700
can do. I can just stop hating that person. I'm
308
00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:06.900
not going to want to go and embrace them. And
309
00:20:06.940 --> 00:20:09.569
it's hard for me to wish for them to be
310
00:20:09.650 --> 00:20:13.650
really happy and have everything that they want. But I
311
00:20:14.130 --> 00:20:16.559
can maybe let go of hatred for them and just
312
00:20:16.650 --> 00:20:22.420
make them like a neutral person. So, you know, it's interesting.
313
00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:24.700
I don't know if I'm talking about out of both
314
00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:29.220
sides of my mouth, but on the one hand, suggesting, oh,
315
00:20:29.299 --> 00:20:32.359
it's great to have these ideals. And on the other hand, saying,
316
00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:40.619
let's have achievable tasks and as practitioners, as meditators, as
317
00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:45.079
people on some kind of, I guess, spiritual journey. You know,
318
00:20:45.180 --> 00:20:51.089
one of the other models that I really like, Bhikkhu Inalya,
319
00:20:51.170 --> 00:20:57.170
one of the great scholars and translators of the texts,
320
00:20:58.730 --> 00:21:01.670
sort of the next generation. He was a student of
321
00:21:01.710 --> 00:21:08.269
Bhikkhu Bodhi. He says that just following the five precepts
322
00:21:08.490 --> 00:21:12.130
of non-harming to not kill, not to steal, not to lie,
323
00:21:12.170 --> 00:21:17.500
not to harm people sexually, not using intoxicants to the
324
00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:22.039
point of heedlessness, just to follow those guidelines for living
325
00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:31.269
is an act of compassion because you're being non-harming. And wow,
326
00:21:31.309 --> 00:21:35.269
that's another one of those moments like the realizing that
327
00:21:36.190 --> 00:21:38.910
taking care of my daughter was an act of loving kindness.
328
00:21:39.369 --> 00:21:41.789
It's another one of those moments when I realize, oh,
329
00:21:42.210 --> 00:21:44.490
I'm already doing some of the good stuff. You know,
330
00:21:44.509 --> 00:21:48.390
I'm already, yeah, it is an act of compassion. And,
331
00:21:48.410 --> 00:21:53.009
you know, I think that when we get interested and
332
00:21:53.470 --> 00:21:58.329
excited about spiritual practice or Buddhism or whatever, and we
333
00:21:58.369 --> 00:22:00.670
start to have these ideals, you know, we see these
334
00:22:01.190 --> 00:22:04.089
goals and enlightenment and what she was saying, like not,
335
00:22:04.470 --> 00:22:06.569
you know, not being angry with people who are sawing
336
00:22:06.630 --> 00:22:11.869
off our limbs. And we lose sight of the fact
337
00:22:11.930 --> 00:22:16.859
that something as simple as taking the precept to not
338
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:21.900
steal is actually a big deal. You know, that can
339
00:22:21.940 --> 00:22:27.720
we imagine if everybody in the world followed the precept
340
00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:35.470
of not stealing or of not killing, the world would
341
00:22:35.509 --> 00:22:39.150
be a completely different place. As individuals, we might not
342
00:22:39.230 --> 00:22:42.180
feel that we've done anything particularly special because we haven't
343
00:22:42.220 --> 00:22:46.740
gone out and murdered anybody today. But when we know
344
00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:53.480
that people are being murdered and killed both through individual
345
00:22:54.259 --> 00:23:00.390
hatred and through state violence constantly, And we realize, oh,
346
00:23:00.410 --> 00:23:03.279
that actually is a big deal if I do that.
347
00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:08.299
I actually, I'm participating very much in a communal act
348
00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:09.200
of compassion.
349
00:23:09.779 --> 00:23:13.859
I want to go back to this non-ill will notion
350
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:14.440
for a second.
351
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:15.839
Please.
352
00:23:17.220 --> 00:23:21.440
My concern about it is that it feels a little neutral,
353
00:23:21.700 --> 00:23:25.099
a little dull in some way, you know, a little cold.
354
00:23:25.619 --> 00:23:29.210
You know, I'm attracted to the notion of You know,
355
00:23:29.230 --> 00:23:30.690
I talk about this a lot on the show. I
356
00:23:30.690 --> 00:23:33.670
don't want to pretend this is an original idea. I've
357
00:23:33.710 --> 00:23:36.329
stolen it from smarter people. But I'm attracted to the
358
00:23:36.390 --> 00:23:42.799
notion of defining love down to just the human capacity,
359
00:23:42.859 --> 00:23:47.059
the mammalian capacity to care. And, you know, it can
360
00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:51.230
range from slightly north of neutral to, you know, you
361
00:23:51.269 --> 00:23:55.009
complete me, Tom Cruise uttering, you know, famous love lines
362
00:23:55.089 --> 00:24:03.220
in a movie. But non-ill will seems... really firmly in neutrality.
363
00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:07.539
And I get that anything north of neutrality could be
364
00:24:07.619 --> 00:24:13.829
clinging or attachment and contrary to the Buddha's primary goal,
365
00:24:13.849 --> 00:24:18.750
which is non-attachment, letting go. So how do we compute
366
00:24:18.829 --> 00:24:21.650
all of this? Because caring seems to be pretty important
367
00:24:21.710 --> 00:24:23.990
in terms of the survival of the species.
368
00:24:24.049 --> 00:24:29.859
Yeah. Well, absolutely. And I think What I'm trying to
369
00:24:29.920 --> 00:24:34.460
suggest is let's have a baseline. Let's have our baseline
370
00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:39.240
be non-ill will. It's definitely not the end point. I mean,
371
00:24:39.779 --> 00:24:43.910
radiating kindness over the entire world. That's the line from
372
00:24:43.970 --> 00:24:50.630
the Metta Sutta. Absolutely. I mean, beautiful. And something to
373
00:24:51.150 --> 00:24:55.630
practice and to pursue. I just like the idea that
374
00:24:56.599 --> 00:25:01.099
on my bad days... I can practice non-ill will. On
375
00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:04.619
my good days, I can radiate kindness over the entire world.
376
00:25:05.500 --> 00:25:08.789
And so, certainly, I don't mean to suggest that that's
377
00:25:08.849 --> 00:25:13.309
the end point of practice. And I'm really actually pleased
378
00:25:13.410 --> 00:25:17.509
that you used the word care, because that's actually what
379
00:25:17.609 --> 00:25:22.029
I came to as I was particularly addressing the question
380
00:25:22.069 --> 00:25:29.720
of self-love was care. And I would suggest that care
381
00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:36.009
is living kindness because care is active, right? If we're
382
00:25:36.049 --> 00:25:39.150
talking about caring, not just I care about you, but
383
00:25:39.230 --> 00:25:43.029
I take care of you. I take care of me.
384
00:25:43.670 --> 00:25:47.559
I take care of the world. That's actually my, that's
385
00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:52.180
my translation for metta is care. And it's not, an
386
00:25:52.279 --> 00:25:56.359
accurate translation at all. It's not a translation of the Pali,
387
00:25:57.019 --> 00:26:02.099
but I'm completely unsatisfied with the translations that say, well,
388
00:26:02.140 --> 00:26:05.809
it's more like friendliness. I'm like, that leaves me kind
389
00:26:05.849 --> 00:26:10.970
of cold. But care, because this question of self-love, which
390
00:26:11.069 --> 00:26:15.670
is a persistent one in our culture and in the
391
00:26:16.279 --> 00:26:20.819
mindfulness community and in the Buddhist community, especially when people
392
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:25.859
are challenged to do loving kindness for themselves, I really
393
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:28.980
like the idea of, okay, again, I don't have to
394
00:26:29.259 --> 00:26:34.259
feel all warm and fuzzy necessarily. Often when we're asked
395
00:26:34.500 --> 00:26:42.180
to practice self-love, there's an immediate problem of grading ourselves or,
396
00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:45.750
you know, trying to ask ourselves if we deserve it,
397
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:49.190
if we've earned it. And sometimes, I don't think that's
398
00:26:49.470 --> 00:26:54.170
what the Buddha means by loving yourself. Like, oh, check
399
00:26:54.190 --> 00:26:58.940
your spiritual resume. Are you a good enough person? But rather,
400
00:26:59.819 --> 00:27:03.960
can you take care of yourself? And that comes back
401
00:27:04.099 --> 00:27:12.609
to very basic daily actions, behaviors. Do I feed myself?
402
00:27:12.660 --> 00:27:15.809
Do I rest when I'm tired? Do I exercise if
403
00:27:15.950 --> 00:27:21.160
I'm feeling tired? spiritual hole? Do I seek to fill
404
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:26.359
it with something healthy and nurturing or do I harm myself?
405
00:27:27.059 --> 00:27:30.109
Then I don't have to be grading myself and do
406
00:27:30.150 --> 00:27:33.410
I deserve love? I don't know, you know, but I
407
00:27:33.490 --> 00:27:36.990
do care about myself and I do take care of myself.
408
00:27:37.690 --> 00:27:42.019
And that's what I think in practical terms, that's loving myself.
409
00:27:42.420 --> 00:27:43.880
That's meta for myself.
410
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:47.599
Much more of my conversation with Kevin Griffin after this.
411
00:27:53.859 --> 00:27:59.400
How do you compute the seeming riddle of caring for
412
00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:01.599
yourself or others without attachment?
413
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:10.549
I'm glad you saved that one. Because that's a hard question.
414
00:28:11.250 --> 00:28:16.910
So my immediate response is kind of in the same
415
00:28:16.990 --> 00:28:21.220
way that if we see someone fall down, we just
416
00:28:21.259 --> 00:28:24.710
go and help just pick them up. It's not because
417
00:28:25.710 --> 00:28:28.869
we're attached to them that we help them to get up.
418
00:28:29.470 --> 00:28:35.180
So if we treat ourselves as just anybody, rather than
419
00:28:35.299 --> 00:28:38.259
as ourselves, just as we would treat another human being,
420
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:45.720
and maybe even, hopefully even just another being, then there's
421
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:52.630
a spontaneous response to suffering or to need. To the
422
00:28:52.690 --> 00:28:56.180
need for care. And there doesn't have to be any,
423
00:28:56.200 --> 00:29:01.099
I'm attached to myself or I'm doing this because it's me.
424
00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:03.440
But if it were someone else who was hungry, I
425
00:29:03.500 --> 00:29:06.180
wouldn't give them food. You know, I think that's what
426
00:29:06.220 --> 00:29:09.599
comes to mind. That might not be, you know, the
427
00:29:09.640 --> 00:29:14.359
most profound answer. Let's assume it's not the most profound answer. Yeah.
428
00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:18.660
I guess what I'm getting at, though, is not just
429
00:29:18.859 --> 00:29:24.319
how we feel about ourselves, but any being about whom
430
00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:25.240
we care.
431
00:29:25.900 --> 00:29:26.140
Yeah.
432
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:29.869
You know, let's take your then-toddler and now, I assume,
433
00:29:30.009 --> 00:29:34.490
somewhat older daughter. And I've got a son. I am
434
00:29:34.829 --> 00:29:36.150
very attached to my son.
435
00:29:36.410 --> 00:29:36.950
He's six.
436
00:29:37.710 --> 00:29:41.369
And so how can I love my son or my
437
00:29:41.410 --> 00:29:45.539
wife or my friends or my cats without clinging or
438
00:29:45.619 --> 00:29:46.740
without attaching?
439
00:29:47.660 --> 00:29:52.400
I would say you can't. And I have a chapter
440
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.740
on this sutta called Born from Those Who Are Dear.
441
00:29:56.559 --> 00:29:59.400
And it's another sutta that I discovered around that same
442
00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:04.200
time My daughter was a small one. Yeah, she is
443
00:30:04.579 --> 00:30:10.130
turning 23 this week. And I saw the title of
444
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:13.309
that sutta, and I thought, born from those who are dear. Oh,
445
00:30:13.329 --> 00:30:15.869
this is going to be about loving your children and
446
00:30:15.910 --> 00:30:19.869
how sweet and wonderful it is. No, not so much.
447
00:30:20.609 --> 00:30:23.009
What the Buddha says is born from those who are
448
00:30:23.049 --> 00:30:29.700
dear is suffering. He says, yes, so exactly what you're
449
00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:33.440
pointing to attachment causes suffering and it's a in the
450
00:30:33.500 --> 00:30:36.019
sutta a man comes to the buddha and his son
451
00:30:36.059 --> 00:30:42.720
has just died and he's you know going to the
452
00:30:42.769 --> 00:30:46.289
buddha for some kind of help like bring my child
453
00:30:46.349 --> 00:30:49.069
back to life or you know what am i supposed
454
00:30:49.109 --> 00:30:54.910
to do and the buddha says to him sorrow lamentation
455
00:30:54.970 --> 00:30:57.410
pain grief and despair are born from those who are
456
00:30:57.430 --> 00:31:03.869
dear okay, well, thanks for that, you know. It doesn't
457
00:31:03.930 --> 00:31:09.230
really seem like it's offering much hope. He tells this man,
458
00:31:09.789 --> 00:31:12.859
come to your senses, which I think is a very
459
00:31:12.930 --> 00:31:17.079
telling line. You know, it reminds me of John Kabat-Zinn's book,
460
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:22.880
Coming to Our Senses, I think it's called. And, you know,
461
00:31:22.900 --> 00:31:25.960
that's a common phrase in our language, come to your senses.
462
00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:30.109
But You know, if we think of it in mindfulness terms,
463
00:31:30.730 --> 00:31:33.730
come to our senses means come into your body, come
464
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:37.500
into your experience of your body. So he's trying to
465
00:31:37.539 --> 00:31:40.460
calm the man down by just telling him to be
466
00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:48.200
present with his experience. But as I've reflected on this
467
00:31:48.259 --> 00:31:53.250
sutta quite a bit, first of all, it's quite apparent
468
00:31:53.289 --> 00:31:56.750
that that's true. And the sutta goes on to kind
469
00:31:56.789 --> 00:32:00.529
of argue for the truth of that, that if we
470
00:32:00.569 --> 00:32:03.349
are attached to people, at some point we will have
471
00:32:03.450 --> 00:32:08.410
suffering around that attachment. It's not suggesting that having attachment
472
00:32:08.450 --> 00:32:12.559
to people is just continuous suffering, but that inevitably things
473
00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:16.500
will change. My daughter is living across the country, and
474
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:22.460
I miss her, and that's painful. But what I think
475
00:32:22.509 --> 00:32:28.799
the Buddha is talking about is having insight into the
476
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.539
truth and that if you have insight into the truth
477
00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:40.069
then you don't experience dukkha you can still experience pain
478
00:32:40.849 --> 00:32:44.970
but it's not confused you can remember like this is
479
00:32:45.049 --> 00:32:52.329
natural this is what's supposed to happen and that for
480
00:32:52.369 --> 00:32:55.809
me again a lot of what the buddha is saying
481
00:32:56.440 --> 00:33:00.759
is meant for me to understand the truth. And that
482
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:03.839
if I understand the truth and I hold that with wisdom,
483
00:33:03.900 --> 00:33:10.960
with acceptance, and yes, with compassion, then it doesn't create dukkha.
484
00:33:11.609 --> 00:33:18.049
Because dukkha implies ignorance. It implies you don't understand reality.
485
00:33:18.509 --> 00:33:22.569
And that's why it's particularly painful. Because there's nothing quite
486
00:33:22.609 --> 00:33:25.529
so painful as going through an experience that doesn't make
487
00:33:25.690 --> 00:33:28.880
sense to you that hurts. Whereas when you go through
488
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:31.670
something that makes sense to you, that hurts, you can
489
00:33:31.710 --> 00:33:34.650
be with that. You can hold it. Okay. They're going
490
00:33:34.670 --> 00:33:37.289
to stick a needle in my arm right now. It's
491
00:33:37.329 --> 00:33:40.430
going to hurt. That's okay. I'm doing that so that
492
00:33:40.450 --> 00:33:47.019
I'll become vaccinated. Ouch. That hurt. Okay. But I'm not suffering, right?
493
00:33:47.299 --> 00:33:51.079
It's not dukkha. So that to me is, it's just
494
00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:56.369
a really critical idea because everybody, including ourselves, It's going
495
00:33:56.380 --> 00:34:01.390
to die, you know. Hopefully we'll get old beforehand, you know,
496
00:34:01.769 --> 00:34:08.329
which is also difficult. How do you hold that? That's just,
497
00:34:08.969 --> 00:34:12.269
for me, especially as I get older, these are the
498
00:34:12.409 --> 00:34:15.750
really important questions about my practice. How do I hold
499
00:34:15.769 --> 00:34:20.889
these experiences? They're inevitably going to be difficult. The Buddha's
500
00:34:20.969 --> 00:34:24.909
not offering us, you know, a rose garden, you know.
501
00:34:25.900 --> 00:34:28.360
That's not the promise of the Dharma. The promise of
502
00:34:28.420 --> 00:34:31.929
the Dharma, to me, I know the ultimate promise is, oh,
503
00:34:31.969 --> 00:34:35.530
I'm going to let go of all attachment. But, you know, well,
504
00:34:35.590 --> 00:34:38.210
I've got it. Well, I've got attachment. To me, the
505
00:34:38.250 --> 00:34:41.949
promise is that if I understand the truth, I will
506
00:34:41.969 --> 00:34:45.889
not experience dukkha. I will still have pain, but I
507
00:34:45.909 --> 00:34:48.969
will not experience dukkha. Does that make sense to you?
508
00:34:50.280 --> 00:34:50.659
It does.
509
00:34:50.739 --> 00:34:57.000
It might be worth explaining the word dukkha. For folks
510
00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:58.219
who are new to this.
511
00:34:58.340 --> 00:35:01.340
Right. So it's the term that shows up in these
512
00:35:01.460 --> 00:35:05.699
early teachings. And it's one of those words that's just,
513
00:35:06.139 --> 00:35:10.949
it can't be translated into English directly, which says something
514
00:35:11.010 --> 00:35:14.190
about both what the Buddha was teaching and the culture
515
00:35:14.230 --> 00:35:19.010
he was in. Its literal meaning is something like an
516
00:35:19.380 --> 00:35:24.010
axle or a wheel that's on a bent axle. So
517
00:35:24.289 --> 00:35:28.010
I like the image of the grocery cart with the
518
00:35:28.050 --> 00:35:31.949
bad tire. And when you're pushing, it doesn't work. It's
519
00:35:31.989 --> 00:35:36.599
this feeling that things aren't right. It's this discomfort in
520
00:35:36.639 --> 00:35:40.079
the world. And I think it does really imply this
521
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:45.000
confusion about reality. It is the pain of life. And
522
00:35:45.380 --> 00:35:48.070
that's kind of how the Buddha defines it. It's all
523
00:35:48.110 --> 00:35:53.440
the physical and mental pain of our existence. And yeah, fundamentally,
524
00:35:53.460 --> 00:35:59.039
he says that that's caused by our attachment. So maybe
525
00:35:59.059 --> 00:36:02.619
I'm exaggerating when I say that if we're not confused,
526
00:36:02.659 --> 00:36:04.940
we won't experience dukkha. Maybe we have to be fully
527
00:36:04.980 --> 00:36:09.110
enlightened not to experience dukkha. But to me, the real
528
00:36:10.619 --> 00:36:14.010
problem of it is when we're confused and we just
529
00:36:14.050 --> 00:36:16.230
don't understand. Why does this hurt?
530
00:36:17.289 --> 00:36:19.349
But I could see it being a turnoff for some
531
00:36:19.389 --> 00:36:22.329
people and maybe even me. If the end point of
532
00:36:22.389 --> 00:36:27.389
this path is we're not going to love the people
533
00:36:28.309 --> 00:36:30.340
that we love the most in the same way, in
534
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:32.099
other words, we're not going to be clinging, we're not
535
00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:35.019
going to be attached, that feels like a certain amount
536
00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:40.380
of frigidity is creeping into the relationship. Are you picking
537
00:36:40.420 --> 00:36:41.199
up what I'm putting down here?
538
00:36:41.300 --> 00:36:44.349
Absolutely. I think the Buddha is portrayed in this way,
539
00:36:44.570 --> 00:36:50.579
in the suttas, as really not having Emotions about people.
540
00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:53.679
And I don't believe that. I believe that it is
541
00:36:53.699 --> 00:37:01.039
a creation of the people who put together the suttas,
542
00:37:01.500 --> 00:37:05.500
that they wanted to create the image of this sort
543
00:37:05.539 --> 00:37:12.400
of perfected otherworldly being who was not affected by anything.
544
00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:16.110
And I don't think that's true. And I don't think
545
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:20.619
it's really what the Buddha is pointing to. Again, that's like,
546
00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:23.780
but we have to distinguish. I mean, first of all,
547
00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:29.599
let's distinguish attachment from love, right? Those are two very
548
00:37:29.659 --> 00:37:33.510
different things. When we're talking about attachment, and of course, again,
549
00:37:33.550 --> 00:37:36.210
we have to kind of define terms. I mean, we're
550
00:37:36.250 --> 00:37:40.409
talking about an unhealthy kind of attachment, a needy attachment.
551
00:37:40.750 --> 00:37:42.710
I need you to be the way you are, and
552
00:37:42.750 --> 00:37:45.150
I need you to stay the way you are, right?
553
00:37:47.099 --> 00:37:49.199
Which is like the problem, like I don't want my
554
00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:52.780
kid to grow up and leave me because she's abandoning me.
555
00:37:53.099 --> 00:37:57.070
You know, that's really unhealthy. And that's the kind of
556
00:37:57.130 --> 00:38:02.230
attachment I'm talking about. But love and caring for others.
557
00:38:02.309 --> 00:38:04.949
I mean, we see the Buddha as spending his whole
558
00:38:06.099 --> 00:38:11.739
life after an awakening, just giving everything. It said that
559
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:16.130
his 45 years of teaching were an act of compassion.
560
00:38:17.610 --> 00:38:19.849
But to make it a little personal about the Buddha,
561
00:38:20.289 --> 00:38:23.230
there's also this image that I like to call upon
562
00:38:23.969 --> 00:38:28.699
where late in his life, he lived to be 80.
563
00:38:28.699 --> 00:38:32.699
Late in his life, his best friends have died. And
564
00:38:33.079 --> 00:38:36.579
you can imagine this guy has now got all these followers.
565
00:38:37.619 --> 00:38:40.360
And a lot of them are young. And some of
566
00:38:40.380 --> 00:38:42.940
them are kind of annoying and behaving badly. And he
567
00:38:42.980 --> 00:38:47.210
has to deal with that. He's got this big organization now,
568
00:38:47.250 --> 00:38:52.389
you know. And I'm embellishing here. But this part I'm
569
00:38:52.429 --> 00:38:55.909
not embellishing. In one of the suttas, he says that
570
00:38:56.710 --> 00:39:01.510
the assembly of monks feels empty to him. And then
571
00:39:01.550 --> 00:39:05.389
he names a couple of his dear old friends, right?
572
00:39:06.030 --> 00:39:08.869
And then he quickly in the sutra says, I'm not suffering.
573
00:39:09.489 --> 00:39:13.039
I don't want you to misunderstand. Don't worry. I'm not suffering,
574
00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:16.800
you know. But I kind of go, yeah, who put
575
00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:19.800
that part in about how he's not suffering? Because I
576
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:22.969
believe the first part. I believe that he is sad.
577
00:39:22.989 --> 00:39:26.829
I believe that he misses them. I don't think it
578
00:39:26.909 --> 00:39:29.969
belittles the Buddha. I think it makes him a greater teacher.
579
00:39:30.610 --> 00:39:34.800
if we see him as having human emotions, because he
580
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:38.239
was a human, you know, and he was a father.
581
00:39:38.420 --> 00:39:41.440
And there are suttas where he's teaching his son, you know,
582
00:39:41.480 --> 00:39:46.000
his son ordains, you know, there's got to be emotions
583
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:49.239
going on there. So I don't think that we're not
584
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:52.760
supposed to love and care for people. It's that we
585
00:39:52.800 --> 00:39:55.750
have to watch out for the ways that our attachment
586
00:39:55.829 --> 00:40:00.510
creates suffering. And our attachment creates suffering if we expect
587
00:40:00.570 --> 00:40:03.750
them to stay this one way, or if we expect
588
00:40:04.269 --> 00:40:08.210
them never to get sick, or for us never to
589
00:40:08.250 --> 00:40:10.789
have a conflict with them, or for them not to
590
00:40:11.210 --> 00:40:16.829
leave us. So it's challenging, no doubt.
591
00:40:18.460 --> 00:40:21.059
Much more of my conversation with Kevin Griffin right after this.
592
00:40:26.510 --> 00:40:32.570
Let's go back to self-love. I sometimes think about like,
593
00:40:33.489 --> 00:40:36.230
so if love is probably the greatest cliche of all time,
594
00:40:36.289 --> 00:40:39.829
self-love is even greater. And yet, it's a very powerful idea.
595
00:40:39.849 --> 00:40:42.969
It's had a big impact on me. And yet again,
596
00:40:42.989 --> 00:40:47.780
if you're a Buddhist... doing anything that concretizes or builds
597
00:40:47.860 --> 00:40:51.449
up the idea of a self is kind of verboten.
598
00:40:51.610 --> 00:40:54.630
So I don't know, what do you do with all
599
00:40:54.650 --> 00:40:55.570
of the foregoing?
600
00:40:56.730 --> 00:40:59.750
I think it actually helps to maybe start with the external.
601
00:41:01.090 --> 00:41:04.030
So for me, getting sober was probably the biggest act
602
00:41:04.090 --> 00:41:09.750
of self-love I've ever done. And yet it comes in
603
00:41:09.769 --> 00:41:14.500
the framework of you're an alcoholic, you know, taking on
604
00:41:14.559 --> 00:41:18.250
that kind of Which sounds like I'd hate myself if
605
00:41:18.329 --> 00:41:24.179
I were an alcoholic, you know. So the idea that
606
00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:27.619
I'm an alcoholic is terrible. That doesn't sound like self-love
607
00:41:27.659 --> 00:41:29.639
at all. And it's probably one of the reasons people
608
00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:33.500
object to having to say they're an alcoholic, which nobody
609
00:41:33.539 --> 00:41:36.400
has to say it if they don't want to. But
610
00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:40.610
it was, oh, when I stopped drinking and smoking dope
611
00:41:40.659 --> 00:41:47.590
all the time, I was taking care of myself. much better.
612
00:41:49.469 --> 00:41:54.880
And so that was, as I say, the external. But
613
00:41:55.159 --> 00:42:00.099
on the internal, from the meditative standpoint, I think it's
614
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:08.409
watching how you are creating suffering for yourself. So when
615
00:42:08.429 --> 00:42:12.650
we watch our thoughts and we see the ones that
616
00:42:12.690 --> 00:42:16.650
are really not helpful, when we realize that our thoughts
617
00:42:16.789 --> 00:42:22.360
are not who we are, then we can step away
618
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:31.940
from them and not believe the self-hatred in the thoughts.
619
00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:41.010
If you start to watch your mind in meditation, after
620
00:42:41.050 --> 00:42:43.769
a while, you start to see that the thoughts are
621
00:42:43.829 --> 00:42:49.230
just coming. They're just pouring out. And some of them
622
00:42:49.510 --> 00:42:53.409
will feel intentional, but then a lot of them won't.
623
00:42:55.769 --> 00:43:00.489
And as we establish mindfulness, we start to realize that
624
00:43:00.670 --> 00:43:05.230
we have this capacity to just watch, which means there's
625
00:43:05.289 --> 00:43:12.820
some aspect of mind that can just be aware that's
626
00:43:13.000 --> 00:43:19.920
separate from this, you know, just profusion of words and
627
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:24.940
images and ideas that are pouring out or pouring through
628
00:43:25.030 --> 00:43:30.449
the mind. And so having that experience allows me then
629
00:43:30.469 --> 00:43:37.630
to question the thoughts because I see that the thoughts
630
00:43:37.670 --> 00:43:40.500
can be contradictory. One day or one minute, I can
631
00:43:40.539 --> 00:43:43.000
have one thought and five minutes later I can have
632
00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:47.769
another thought that's in total disagreement. So if I think
633
00:43:47.789 --> 00:43:51.550
that I am my thoughts, how can my thoughts contradict
634
00:43:51.590 --> 00:43:57.489
each other? So as I gain that kind of distance
635
00:43:58.030 --> 00:44:02.840
from the thoughts, then the ones that sort of embody
636
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:09.659
this negative self-image or self-hatred or the ways that I
637
00:44:09.699 --> 00:44:14.510
don't like myself, I can start to just see that oh,
638
00:44:14.570 --> 00:44:19.989
that's just part of the crap that's being generated out
639
00:44:20.030 --> 00:44:24.929
of this. And it comes and goes. It's not me.
640
00:44:24.989 --> 00:44:30.750
It's not true. And that allows me then to be
641
00:44:32.849 --> 00:44:38.670
more kind to myself, to say, oh, well, maybe I'm
642
00:44:38.730 --> 00:44:40.989
not just a loser or a d * * *
643
00:44:40.309 --> 00:44:45.539
hole or a jerk, you know? Maybe that's just an idea.
644
00:44:47.260 --> 00:44:51.260
Maybe the highest form of self-love is to see that
645
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:55.480
there's no self at all. So you described seeing your
646
00:44:55.519 --> 00:44:59.530
thoughts and how contradictory they are, and the inference there
647
00:44:59.590 --> 00:45:02.389
is that there can't be some solid, coherent self from
648
00:45:02.429 --> 00:45:07.650
which they're emanating. They're just little quantum bursts of energy
649
00:45:07.670 --> 00:45:10.369
in the mind. And that once you see that there
650
00:45:10.429 --> 00:45:14.469
isn't some... homunculus of you between your ears, that it's
651
00:45:14.650 --> 00:45:19.230
just a messy process, often causing a lot of pain,
652
00:45:19.250 --> 00:45:24.030
then you can kind of direct some more care in
653
00:45:24.070 --> 00:45:27.250
your own direction. Am I anywhere near the point here?
654
00:45:27.949 --> 00:45:31.800
That makes perfect sense to me, yeah. And I think
655
00:45:31.949 --> 00:45:38.739
it does somewhat go back to that instinctive response to suffering, right?
656
00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:43.039
That's not about earning it. You know, if somebody's rolled
657
00:45:43.099 --> 00:45:47.420
into the hospital on a gurney, the doctor doesn't go, well,
658
00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:52.079
are you a good person? So getting back to our
659
00:45:52.179 --> 00:45:57.840
individual response, just as you're saying, if we're not judging ourselves,
660
00:45:59.800 --> 00:46:05.099
then we're just going to respond as we would to
661
00:46:05.980 --> 00:46:08.679
the suffering of any being. I think that that's what
662
00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:12.150
the Buddha is saying when he's talking about really unconditioned
663
00:46:12.230 --> 00:46:18.460
love meta it's just not about individuals it has a
664
00:46:18.500 --> 00:46:23.380
practice where oftentimes when the buddha describes practicing loving kindness
665
00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:27.340
in the sutras he just describes it as ascending loving
666
00:46:27.380 --> 00:46:32.030
kindness in like the ten directions you know it's it's
667
00:46:32.070 --> 00:46:37.869
very it's sort of there's no emotion there particularly it's
668
00:46:37.909 --> 00:46:42.469
just this it's this radiating which it's kind of a
669
00:46:42.510 --> 00:46:45.750
beautiful practice when you can get to that place where
670
00:46:45.769 --> 00:46:49.610
you just sit and you just imagine that out of your,
671
00:46:49.969 --> 00:46:52.679
from your whole, all the pores in your body and
672
00:46:52.739 --> 00:46:55.280
from your mind and your heart and everything, there's just
673
00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:59.860
this like beaming rays of love going out and spreading
674
00:46:59.900 --> 00:47:03.449
and imagining it surrounding the world. And even I like
675
00:47:03.469 --> 00:47:06.090
the image even of holding the world, you know, imagining
676
00:47:06.130 --> 00:47:08.170
that you have the earth in your arms and you're
677
00:47:08.230 --> 00:47:10.929
holding it and touching all the beings, you know. It's
678
00:47:11.730 --> 00:47:15.840
really a lovely way to just connect and to feel
679
00:47:16.260 --> 00:47:20.079
loving kindness, which I was sort of somewhat discounting. I mean,
680
00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:24.159
it's beautiful. I love to feel loving kindness. Again, just
681
00:47:24.980 --> 00:47:27.679
I warn against the urge to feel it all the time,
682
00:47:27.699 --> 00:47:28.360
you know.
683
00:47:29.739 --> 00:47:31.860
Or the urge to make it into some special precious
684
00:47:31.900 --> 00:47:33.820
thing that only happens on the cushion, but then you
685
00:47:33.860 --> 00:47:35.760
walk around in your actual life and are a jerk
686
00:47:35.780 --> 00:47:36.139
to people.
687
00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:42.869
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, and really, my most common daily
688
00:47:42.969 --> 00:47:48.409
experience of loving kindness is when I'm outside and I
689
00:47:48.469 --> 00:47:52.739
look at trees and listen to birds, basically. Those are
690
00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:55.480
kind of the things that birds and trees kind of
691
00:47:55.719 --> 00:47:58.679
like trigger it for me. I can just like stop.
692
00:47:59.139 --> 00:48:03.780
Sometimes clouds, you know. So nature, you know, I think
693
00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:08.900
nature is a, it evokes loving kindness from us very naturally.
694
00:48:09.619 --> 00:48:12.360
It's one of the reasons, you know, I mean, the
695
00:48:12.380 --> 00:48:17.269
Buddha lived outside, right? And he says, go sit under
696
00:48:17.309 --> 00:48:19.489
a tree. You know, what does he say? Go sit
697
00:48:19.550 --> 00:48:22.489
under a tree. It's not like a random thing. And
698
00:48:22.789 --> 00:48:25.369
he became enlightened under a tree. And supposedly he was
699
00:48:25.449 --> 00:48:29.460
born under a tree. And then he died under two trees,
700
00:48:29.500 --> 00:48:32.539
two solid trees. So, you know, I think there's a
701
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:37.860
whole story about the Buddha and nature that we don't
702
00:48:37.929 --> 00:48:38.780
tell enough.
703
00:48:39.789 --> 00:48:42.489
I think I misspoke about self-love now that I think back.
704
00:48:42.769 --> 00:48:45.090
When I say the highest form of self-love is to
705
00:48:45.110 --> 00:48:46.969
see there's no self at all, I guess, I think
706
00:48:47.010 --> 00:48:49.269
what I really should have said was more that it's
707
00:48:49.349 --> 00:48:52.139
kind of an act of mercy to yourself to see
708
00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:57.719
that there's no solid self there to hate or to
709
00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:01.739
be pissed off at all the time. To stop taking
710
00:49:01.760 --> 00:49:05.500
yourself so seriously, that seems like an act of self-love.
711
00:49:06.480 --> 00:49:09.599
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I like that. It's an act
712
00:49:09.639 --> 00:49:13.679
of mercy, yes. I think that's right. You know, it's
713
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:20.159
an insight, the understanding of how we create self. is
714
00:49:20.199 --> 00:49:24.019
an insight. And when we have that and we realize
715
00:49:24.059 --> 00:49:27.420
that it's a creation, then we are letting go of
716
00:49:27.460 --> 00:49:34.130
the attachment to self, which is ending suffering. And ending
717
00:49:34.190 --> 00:49:39.309
suffering brings happiness, which is another way of talking about love.
718
00:49:41.590 --> 00:49:44.409
Can you get enlightened doing loving kindness practice? Because that
719
00:49:44.610 --> 00:49:48.519
certainly seems like it would argue that, yes, you can.
720
00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:54.539
And yet, it's often that there's a concept, many listeners
721
00:49:54.559 --> 00:49:56.619
will be familiar with this, but just for those who aren't,
722
00:49:56.880 --> 00:50:02.579
there's a concept of relative versus ultimate. What is ultimately
723
00:50:02.659 --> 00:50:05.760
true is that nothing is really solid and stable. Everything's
724
00:50:05.800 --> 00:50:08.780
changing all the time. Nothing has a true essence, including you.
725
00:50:09.500 --> 00:50:12.360
What is relatively true is that you, Kevin, exist and
726
00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:14.530
I exist and we have to put our pants on
727
00:50:14.550 --> 00:50:16.829
in the morning and make appointments for ourselves, et cetera,
728
00:50:16.889 --> 00:50:21.989
et cetera. This practice of loving kindness is often described
729
00:50:22.010 --> 00:50:27.570
as a relative practice. I am sending good wishes to you.
730
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:31.019
And so would seem to be precluded that you could
731
00:50:31.039 --> 00:50:34.199
get enlightened doing this because you're failing to see the
732
00:50:35.099 --> 00:50:36.400
ultimate truth, perhaps.
733
00:50:36.900 --> 00:50:42.840
Well... Anything I say will just be my own opinion.
734
00:50:42.860 --> 00:50:47.599
I have not become enlightened through doing this practice, and
735
00:50:47.780 --> 00:50:52.030
I prefer to speak from personal experience, but since I'm
736
00:50:52.070 --> 00:50:54.849
on a podcast and being asked a question, I'll try
737
00:50:54.869 --> 00:51:01.090
to say something useful. I think it does point to,
738
00:51:01.230 --> 00:51:04.969
first of all, that the Buddha is not talking about
739
00:51:06.449 --> 00:51:09.059
love in the sense that we conventionally think of it.
740
00:51:09.869 --> 00:51:13.309
And that in fact, it is a practice of letting go.
741
00:51:13.329 --> 00:51:17.449
And that when we are radiating kindness through the entire world,
742
00:51:18.309 --> 00:51:22.690
there is a letting go of self in that there
743
00:51:22.750 --> 00:51:25.550
is almost a kind of merging. So there is this
744
00:51:25.719 --> 00:51:29.960
kind of oneness that we are trying to work toward
745
00:51:30.019 --> 00:51:32.760
in this practice. It's not really meant to be a
746
00:51:32.780 --> 00:51:35.199
dualistic practice. It's probably one of the things that I
747
00:51:35.239 --> 00:51:39.949
don't love about doing it in that formal way. May
748
00:51:39.989 --> 00:51:41.969
you be happy, may you be happy, and thinking of
749
00:51:42.530 --> 00:51:46.550
individual people and trying to project out to them. It
750
00:51:46.630 --> 00:51:50.429
feels much more natural to just sort of radiate love
751
00:51:50.489 --> 00:51:54.619
or be love. And in that sense, yeah, I think
752
00:51:54.659 --> 00:51:58.500
that there's an awakening that can happen through that. You know,
753
00:51:58.739 --> 00:52:01.960
Jack Kornfield has a great essay called If you've never
754
00:52:02.019 --> 00:52:05.480
read it, it's called Enlightenment's Plural. I think it's in
755
00:52:05.960 --> 00:52:09.159
one of his books, Bringing Home the Dharma, something like that.
756
00:52:10.460 --> 00:52:15.210
And in it, you know, he makes the argument that
757
00:52:16.150 --> 00:52:21.969
enlightenment takes many different forms. And then he talks about
758
00:52:22.010 --> 00:52:26.239
the Dalai Lama as sort of the embodiment of compassion and,
759
00:52:26.820 --> 00:52:30.239
you know, some other teacher as the embodiment of emptiness.
760
00:52:30.980 --> 00:52:34.820
And then another teacher as the embodiment of just mindfulness.
761
00:52:34.880 --> 00:52:40.199
And so he kind of says that enlightenment isn't one thing.
762
00:52:41.239 --> 00:52:46.590
Of course, the different schools will tell you that, no,
763
00:52:46.670 --> 00:52:49.969
enlightenment is what we tell you it is. And the
764
00:52:50.030 --> 00:52:54.710
Theravadans have a very specific kind of map for it.
765
00:52:55.989 --> 00:52:58.239
And as you referred to, I guess we've talked about
766
00:52:58.280 --> 00:53:00.380
a little bit, And as it says in the Sutta,
767
00:53:00.679 --> 00:53:07.079
there's something fundamentally about letting go of greed, hatred, and delusion.
768
00:53:07.099 --> 00:53:12.119
So it seems like loving kindness practice is a practice
769
00:53:12.219 --> 00:53:15.280
of letting go of greed, hatred, and delusion. It's certainly
770
00:53:15.300 --> 00:53:19.010
a practice of letting go of hatred. And I would
771
00:53:19.110 --> 00:53:22.650
say that the risk in it is that it doesn't
772
00:53:22.789 --> 00:53:29.619
let go of greed for the feeling, if we're practicing
773
00:53:29.719 --> 00:53:33.510
for the feeling that we are staying attached there. And
774
00:53:33.530 --> 00:53:36.670
it can be also not letting go of delusion because
775
00:53:36.710 --> 00:53:38.909
we can be trying to hold on to that feeling.
776
00:53:39.610 --> 00:53:47.239
So clearly it is letting go of hatred. But I
777
00:53:47.280 --> 00:53:50.159
think the Metta Sutta is trying to point to all
778
00:53:50.219 --> 00:53:53.860
three of these things. I think the practice, if done correctly,
779
00:53:55.389 --> 00:53:59.929
really in its essence, absolutely is a path to awakening,
780
00:54:00.210 --> 00:54:03.610
a certain kind of enlightenment, you know, the enlightenment of
781
00:54:03.670 --> 00:54:04.389
loving kindness.
782
00:54:05.710 --> 00:54:09.650
This has been great, as always. Before we go, can
783
00:54:09.670 --> 00:54:12.550
you just remind everybody of the name of the book
784
00:54:12.730 --> 00:54:15.170
and any other books that are worth mentioning that you've
785
00:54:15.190 --> 00:54:17.630
written and where we can find you online, et cetera.
786
00:54:17.650 --> 00:54:20.769
Et cetera? So, yeah, the book I've been talking about
787
00:54:20.829 --> 00:54:26.650
is Living Kindness, Buddhist Teachings for a Troubled World, And
788
00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:33.739
my website is kevingriffin.net, where my five other books get
789
00:54:33.760 --> 00:54:36.599
talked about. This is the one book that is not
790
00:54:36.639 --> 00:54:40.940
about addiction and recovery. So the others are.
791
00:54:41.860 --> 00:54:43.769
Thank you very much for doing this. Really appreciate it.
792
00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:48.380
Yeah. Thanks, Dan. I really appreciate you highlighting this and
793
00:54:49.019 --> 00:54:50.420
being interested in it. It's great.
794
00:54:52.219 --> 00:54:54.170
Thanks again to Kevin. Thanks as well to everybody who
795
00:54:54.210 --> 00:54:57.269
worked so hard on this show. 10% Happier is produced
796
00:54:57.349 --> 00:55:01.010
by DJ Kashmir, Gabrielle Zuckerman, Justine Davey, and Lauren Smith.
797
00:55:01.550 --> 00:55:05.150
Our supervising producer is Marissa Schneiderman. Kimmy Regler is our
798
00:55:05.190 --> 00:55:09.139
managing producer, and our executive producer is Jen Poyant. We
799
00:55:09.159 --> 00:55:12.360
get our scoring and mixing from Peter Bonaventure over at
800
00:55:12.599 --> 00:55:16.400
Ultraviolet Audio. We'll see you all on Friday for a
801
00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:17.840
bonus episode.