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Apprenticeship is a good way to give young people the opportunity to learn on the job as well as study, because by the time they're true, the apprenticeship you don't need to import them anymore.
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They have the experiences already.
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It's a great opportunity. Yes.
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One thing the employers may say might be, do we have the resources to help these people get to where they need to be?
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But I think give it a go and see how you get on.
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There's no one size fits all here.
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Welcome to Work.
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Plus the podcast that shines a light on the people doing good work across Northern Ireland.
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I'm your host, Richard Clarke, finder of work.
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Plus, I spent years working with employers, schools, colleges and universities, helping young people and career changers to make better informed career decisions.
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Each week I sit down with real people doing real jobs to explore how they got there, what they've learned and why their work matters.
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If you're a parent, teacher, carer or just curious about what good work looks like today, you're in the right place.
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Let's dive in.
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Esther, it's so great to have you on the podcast today.
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Thanks for joining us. Q Great to be here.
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Chris Esther Hard it to come to be in Northern Ireland and you're from Nigeria originally, is that right?
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Yes, I'm originally from Nigeria and moved to Northern Ireland because I got married and my husband worked here.
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So yeah, I'm straight over for a living and so and I've been here since then.
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How long that was back in 2010.
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Okay, so I've been here for quite some time.
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And tell us about your by your your career journey.
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Like, how did that all start?
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Start like, for you?
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You know, you mentioned, you know, we were talking earlier that I just about working in Asda and things like that customer service rules like.
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Yeah yeah I heard it all start like for you. Yes.
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So after moving from Nigeria to here, obviously I had to kind of like start, start again and the first job that I had was the, you know, census collector role, which I actually did over in England before settling in Northern Ireland.
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So it was quite interesting because he made me help me to get comfortable with people and knocking at people's door and taps into to other people, which then went straight into, you know, customer service role in Asda down in Downpatrick and yeah, that was also very good because I just love working with customers, I love working with people and going to work to chat to other people is something I enjoy doing anyway.
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And yeah, and that's, that's how I kind of like started and got pregnant and in between my maternity period, then I decided to, you know, enroll on an access course, which I did, and went back to uni at Queen's as a more trusted NCO and yeah, got my degree and this is me now.
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Well, how did you find out?
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How did you find out about the access course?
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And what was it that sparked you to think I'd like to do something else.
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Yeah, I think. What can you customers is great.
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I'm working as a customer service agent in Asda is great, but at the same time I once had more a think because I that wasn't what I wanted to do for the rest of my life and because I'd studied a polytechnic computer science at a polytechnic in Nigeria, I thought, yeah, I'd love to go back to that.
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And I think German, Métis spirit, I just kind of like came to that conclusion.
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If I'm going to do something, it's better to do it now.
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And that was why I, you know, went back to, to uni and the access course was the bona Mitchell said.
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And I had no A-levels, I only had two so I couldn't go straight in, see any from, you know, my GCSE.
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So I needed something that is equivalent to A-levels.
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And the access course was the best way to do it.
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And I actually got that done.
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And you know, one of the Sirk Institute, like the Southern Regional Colleges and yeah, I did that for a year, I think, and then off I went to uni.
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Brilliant.
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And so did you do full time uni or did you do part time.
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Yeah, I did full time.
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You know that's the worry about things like childcare and things like that.
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But we, we made do and it's just I think it was all about determination.
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I knew what I wanted to do and knew where I wanted to get to eventually.
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And inasmuch as it wasn't easy, but I got quite a lot of support because I think a lot of Mitchell students were children can get the support if they're going into full time education, education and when it comes to childcare and all the support.
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So that really helped because it helped to cover some of the fees for, you know, in order for me to go to uni and get the degree that I needed.
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So yeah, yeah, lots of it.
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And so you mentioned the computer science when you were back in your polytechnic in, in Nigeria.
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Is that something that, that a lot of a lot of girls were choosing in your class or.
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Well, you know, actually when it comes to software and computer science, you know, back in the days mostly back in the days, the kids, you know, talking about it almost the same thing is now when you think about that back in Nigeria, it was something that girls can go into as well.
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You know, there was many girls in my class at the time, so it wasn't just a boy, you know, course that only boys said only men did.
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But women were also quite, quite very much exposed to and have had the opportunity to do such degrees.
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And yeah, it's not it's not as I wouldn't say it's bad here because of noughties girls.
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You don't get many girls going into stem STEM courses or degrees and that's not something that is, you know, that I saw in my polytechnic years and it would be great to have the same, you know, the same thing here whereby we have many women and girls going to, you know, so-called men dominated in jobs or degrees.
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So, yeah.
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Do you think there are barriers for for young women thinking about computer science or software?
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Like do they understand what it is?
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It's not I wouldn't say necessarily.
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I think going into computer science or social engineering is something you need to have a passion for, because it's one thing saying we want more, more girls involved in social engineering, but if that's not what they really want to do, you know, a probably sign up to to the degree and dropouts eventually and because I saw quite a lot of that during my university is you get you get a class full of you know boys and girls almost and the same ratio.
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And after some time you see those that probably were doing software engineering or computer science automatically drifting.
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So things like business information technology.
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So those less heavy coding courses, I'm not sure what the reason is, but I think it's all it's all about passion and determination to in terms of your ambitions and what you want to do.
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And that's probably a gap We need to plug in secondary schools and you know, for our education and things like that. Yes.
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Yeah, yeah. It's a tricky one.
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I'm for you.
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You said it was something you wanted to do from a young age.
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What was it that attracted you to doing that?
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Oh, it's I just love the idea of, you know, sitting down and writing code and seeing it do something. You know?
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I like the like that, you know, that was something that motivated me because I want to see results, result.
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I'm a result driven person.
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So if I'm doing something, it has to have a purpose.
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And when it comes to could in itself, so development, when you sit down and you build something from scratch and you know, just an a click of a button, you see your, you know, your hard work, kind of like performing is set in, you know, events holds.
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That's that was what motivated me really, because I just like to tinker.
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I like to get into things and break things and see how they work and then fix it again.
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So software and computers, you know, software engineering, help me do that.
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And so tell us, like what are some of the things you've been working on then since you've so you did your degree to jump straight to work?
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Yes, I did my degree in Straight to Work because I set it off, you know, working.
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Once I said a uni, my unit, my degree pathway included placement year.
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So I kind of like set it off.
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Then Tesco me which was then acquired and now I don't.
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So that's why I've set in my career and you know, on still with the same company and of worked you know we do software development and that's that's what I've been much involved in after my placement went back as a graduate and dive straight into I, you know, into a support role and then you know develop, maintain and building features into our products.
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And yeah, it's been, it's been a long it's I love it.
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But at the same time the area when it comes to people management and you know having to make changes on a management level that that was where I wanted to take it, but also within the software industry because I do want to get away from that because it's something that I always loved and something I think I'll go through for quite some time.
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So yeah, give us an example and of, you know, you talked about you like to put in code and see what comes out the other side or yeah, what are some examples of things that you've created then.
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Yeah.
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So in one of the projects I walk or I walked on was because we, we as a software company, we'd produce software that, you know, local governments would use.
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But here in Northern Ireland and across, you know, I sort of Ireland as well as mainland UK.
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So some of the stuff so we have a custom of hotel whereby it's, you know, public facing and you know, those I had to build in a feature whereby the customers can be able to kind of like self-serve and do certain things that they usually wouldn't be able to do, you know, from the customer portal.
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And that even after today, whenever I see that feature and that you know, that aspect of of our products, I kind of like I say some of so yes, this is my ideal space and you know is still is still there, you know, and it's not going to go away, hopefully.
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And no, it's I think it's sometimes when it comes to software development, it's what motivates a lot of engineers would be building something that is useful and stays there for a very long time.
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And that was one of the projects I also seen is still been, you know, helping the customers or even, you know, the public be able to apply for products using our software and helping the customer do their own, you know, self-serve and not have to retail to us to do certain things.
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Yeah that that that was very good one for me.
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Now you're in a you're an engineering manager in that role.
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So are you.
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You've got responsibility for for software engineers and in your team. Yes I did.
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About, about what that. Well I've recently come into this new role anyway.
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But prior to that I was the person support lead were also manage a small team of engineers who focused mainly on you know, customer support and on the technical side and yeah so team manager and is something that I've already started work at them.
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But now as a software engineer manager it's it's it's never easy money to manage in a team but it's it's an interesting role because now I'm you know I'm much more involved in a lot of decision making that I wouldn't have been in the first place, just making sure my team is working, you know, working effectively.
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They're happy, you know, because I think having a happy team means you're going to get work done.
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But if if the team isn't happy or motivated to do to do work, you're not going to get much out of them.
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So I think as a software engineer or manager, those things are important to me.
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Making sure that my team is happy and must be said.
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And, you know, in order for us to get results and get our products out there for our customers. And yeah, so yeah, it is challenging.
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So for our kids, you know, get in, get it in content, in contacts in what can well with stakeholders as well it's is really, really important in making you know making the team work well yeah.
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Are things there that you've that you've had to learn fresh or even looking back.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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And so yeah so tell us about more of I just, you know Yeah, there's so many, so much to learn now as a service.
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So to a manager because you know it's not I think it's the same for every, every role really once is you never stop learning inasmuch as you might have a lot, you know, as much as I might have a lot of knowledge already as a sort of a, you know, as a pretty spot lead managing it team and all of that.
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But that's also engineering manager takes it of not obeys sometimes the challenges I think in this is being able to work with other people and actually be patient enough, you know, to listen to others, to listen to their concerns and not having to jump into things quickly.
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You know, it's it's important to take a step back and see and see things from other people's perspective before decisions can be made and finalized.
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And that's something I'm learning to do more of as just listen to people more and understand why they are unhappy about certain things, especially, you know, when it comes to products and working with others.
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Because when it comes to social engineering, it's not just the software engineering team.
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It encompasses a lot of other stakeholders that are involved.
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There's a queuing saying, there's a product saying there's a project team.
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And you know, and when you think about bring all of those people together, that's a lot of people that you have to, you know, do it every single day.
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And it's important that everybody's on the same page.
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And that's the you know, that's my current telling.
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DEADLINE making sure that we're all on the same page and we're all kind of like, you know, singing the same notes.
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So, yeah, highly.
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Yeah, that's something.
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There might be some young people who are thinking, well, software engineering, it sounds like it's going to be me and my laptop.
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Yeah, by myself. By myself.
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But it sounds very different from the way you've just described it. There.
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So if they're thinking, I'm not sure this is for me, because I don't think I could do that by myself or just be in a room by this, what would you say?
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Oh, no, Software engineering is not just about you're sitting there on your laptop every single day.
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No, it involves you know, it's a team.
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I would say the team sports, you know, it can you can relate it to a team sport whereby you'd be working in a team.
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You know, you'll be talking to your team.
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You know, you kind of make sure you're building software that, you know, walks along the rest of your team.
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So it's not just a case of you sitting there and just walking, being alone.
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If you want to do that, I'm sure your team can make room for you to do that now and again.
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But it's also involves chatting to other people, making sure you're engaged and aware of what your other team members are working on.
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And yeah, just being in the loop and it's not it's not a one man band really.
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So it does involve other people.
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What are you, an introvert or an extrovert?
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As always, You know, there's room for you in software development, so please, please give it a go.
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I think it does that.
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You also know that.
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No, absolutely I don't.
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I think sometimes before people get young, people might get scared because, you know, they think or is just going to be myself on my laptop.
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No, it's not.
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And I think what we've tried to introduce within the team in my my company is to encourage people to come to the office and engage with others.
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Now and again, you know, their social aspects is also there and it just keeps us going.
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I guess parents aren't that well.
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We got to know each other.
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A couple of years ago when I'd started working with work, plus to think about bringing in talent and in a slightly different way.
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Can you tell us about about the journey that I was going on, you know, to get to the point where they were thinking about new talent pathways? Yes.
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So in the past, like like I said, I came into this company as came in as a summer intern at first in after my first year of uni, and then Kevin came back as a placements student.
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So it's something we've always, you know, had it's, we've always been open to news, been bringing new talents in and making sure we provide young people the opportunity to get the experience that they need and just to see what it's like being a software engineer and hopefully it's a concrete decision and then software engineers and those opportunities are always there.
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And so we made sure that we we keep that roots open.
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And I think a few years ago after we come in, you know, I first met you really kind of like we started thinking about apprenticeship and how we can get apprentices into our workplace and in order to make sure that we're still providing people with those opportunities.
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And just as as much as we can.
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And apprenticeship is one way that we thought we'll be able to, you know, give more to young, young people not just by offering placement positions, but also including apprentice apprenticeship as part of, you know, that that, you know, growth within the team.
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So and and it's something we've taken on so far and everybody is on board and it seems to be going well so far and now we're taking on more apprentices you know, this year as well.
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So it's a great opportunity and it also opens the door for young people that do not want to maybe do university degree Monday to Friday.
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Yeah, you know, it's a big opportunity whereby you get to study and you get to work and you get to earn at the same time.
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So if there's no reason for you to do apprenticeship, I think earning is one the hall of the last of them.
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But no, it's a huge opportunity for any young person.
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And apprenticeship, you know, apprenticeship is, is a good way to go.
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If you were talking to an employer who's only ever maybe thought a bite taken on graduates that maybe dipped their toe in the order of placements, how does apprenticeships fit into that hope?
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What would you say to them?
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A By a did apprenticeships if they were filling?
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Yeah, I'm not sure whether that's for us.
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I think we need to think, first of all as employers, how can we help our young people, you know, grow and make them better at what they do?
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Apprenticeship is a good way to give, feel, give young people that the opportunity to learn on the job as well as study, because by the time they're through the apprenticeship is you know you don't need to import them anymore.
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They have the experiences already.
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They're probably already involved in a lot of projects that the company is already, you know, ongoing projects.
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And it's a great opportunity. Yes.
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One thing the employers may say might be, do we have the resources to help these people get to where they need to be?
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But I think give it a go and see how you get on.
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You know, there's no there's no one size fits all here.
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Apprenticeship might differ from company to company.
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Before for us, we found it a good way to get young people in and get them growing and becoming more comfortable with our software over time and as the like, they they become part of the team and get that.
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And at the moment, one of our apprentices is currently helping other general, you know, like the placement sit ins coming in and other junior people as well to, you know, understand the products a bit more and they're much more they're doing bigger some big projects as well, which is, which is one thing I know some employers might think, oh a prince apprentices but on what are they going to be able to do for us was we bring them in but don't be afraid to challenge them.
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You know them.
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Brandon, who we have now, hopefully he's not going to mind me saying his name.
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He he's, he's been amazing and he's been offering me projects to bring his way.
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You know, he's ready to just jump in, I think.
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Give them the opportunity.
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I don't think they they don't have the knowledge to.
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They can only learn if you let them.
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So, so good to hear as a business, is there a better return on your investment from an apprentice compared to graduates?
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I wouldn't want to compare that way.
00:21:47.847 --> 00:21:59.442
Okay, So we really want to convey that way because I think whatever choice young people make in order to get to their career, you know, goal eventually is up to them.
00:21:59.817 --> 00:22:08.492
But as an employer, I know because if we start comparing it that way, we'll probably end up just hiring apprentices and not hire graduates.
00:22:08.492 --> 00:22:12.998
But we want to make sure graduate graduates have put in the work.
00:22:12.998 --> 00:22:18.836
They've been full time studies, you know, for three or four years, depending on which pathway they choose.
00:22:19.211 --> 00:22:20.588
And apprentices.
00:22:20.588 --> 00:22:34.394
From my own perspective as a company, I think apprentices for us is is valuable because okay, like I said earlier, you're already equipping them with all the tools they need to be part of the company.
00:22:34.685 --> 00:22:54.873
But when a credit comes in, you know, even though it's after three years or four years of of degree of study and you're going to have to spend time to embody them and get them up to speed whereby an apprentice who is probably two or three years into their, you know, degree pathway have already surpassed, you know, a grade has had their say.
00:22:54.873 --> 00:23:08.345
So if you put it into those two prospective, you can say maybe apprentice apprenticeship is much more value, but every, every pathway has its own benefits at the same time.
00:23:08.428 --> 00:23:09.762
Yeah, Yeah.
00:23:09.762 --> 00:23:45.132
Trying to be a political hand you know it's I was I was I was talking to a very large organization recently and they said that they had stopped their graduate and take because apprentices have been so powerful both for bringing in new people, young people, but also bringing in people who are career changers. You because for someone to get into that organization, if they just if they just had graduate positions, they a person would need to go and get a degree, maybe much like you had to do.
00:23:45.423 --> 00:23:45.757
Yeah.
00:23:45.757 --> 00:23:50.470
Esther And then prove themselves that they got that degree to get the job as a graduate.
00:23:50.470 --> 00:23:55.182
But the company has said they're bringing in 40 or 50 per year.
00:23:55.182 --> 00:23:58.185
Yeah, they're saying we just want to keep the door as open as possible.
00:23:58.185 --> 00:24:04.067
And they've had people actually they've a lady who's a a grandmother who's just become an apprentice.
00:24:04.483 --> 00:24:09.489
So so the other end of the spectrum and if they if they just maybe had that graduate in tech.
00:24:09.489 --> 00:24:20.291
But anyway it's I know that's unusual for a company to make a complete shift, but I'm always interested to understand the how the company thinks about those.
00:24:20.291 --> 00:24:20.625
Yeah.
00:24:20.625 --> 00:24:30.009
No, no, the reason they are thinking, you know, is actually quite valid, you know, But at the same time, we don't want to shut down graduates pathway.
00:24:30.009 --> 00:24:36.974
You know, we still want to keep it open and give everybody equal opportunity whatever path.
00:24:36.974 --> 00:24:38.727
Yes, I totally, totally.
00:24:38.727 --> 00:24:46.442
You mentioned both some of the costs of bringing in an apprentice in terms of onboarding them, etc., and their salary and all that because it's a job.
00:24:46.859 --> 00:24:55.035
But mentoring can be something which employers would say, Oh, actually we don't have the capacity to mentor an apprentice.
00:24:55.035 --> 00:24:57.203
But tell us a bit about what your experience has been.
00:24:57.203 --> 00:24:59.538
Yeah, main trend is one.
00:24:57.203 --> 00:24:59.538
One thing.
00:24:59.538 --> 00:25:06.046
I think that is something that will be number one thing to think about first before we even think about costs.
00:25:06.046 --> 00:25:29.986
Because when you think about the time, it would take another engineer and they'd say no, those similarly mid mid-level engineers who are on board or mentor an apprentice, when you think about all of that, you you wonder in terms of the the corporate goal and objectives, does this actually align with what we're aiming for or how is it going to affect us?
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:32.196
So you need to think about the resources.
00:25:32.196 --> 00:25:41.373
If you don't have the manpower to, you know, mentor and give time to those apprentices, I think you'll be doing them, you know, a disfavor kind of.
00:25:41.373 --> 00:25:49.005
So you need to make sure you have the people there to mentor, guide them and get them to where they need to be, you know, in their career.
00:25:49.381 --> 00:25:52.299
And that that should be the first thing ever company should think about.
00:25:52.299 --> 00:26:05.564
First of all, before we even bring in the idea of the cost of getting The Apprentice into the company is a quite similar to in terms of the responsibility of that mentor to a graduate coming in.
00:26:05.980 --> 00:26:07.691
Or is it is it is it more onerous?
00:26:07.691 --> 00:26:09.483
Is it less onerous?
00:26:07.691 --> 00:26:09.483
Is it about the same?
00:26:09.483 --> 00:26:24.958
I think I think that's that's why when it comes to graduates, it would and I don't think it would require the same amount of time you give a grant a mentor would give a graduates you know to be given to an apprentice as well because apprentices will be coming in straight out.
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:36.344
You know, most of them will be coming straight out of secondary school and they've got no you know, I don't want to say they've got no maturity, you know, because they are much they're going into work.
00:26:36.635 --> 00:26:43.934
But you know, being in university, I suppose, is due to more of the things than, you know, coming in as an apprentice.
00:26:43.934 --> 00:26:50.650
So they're going to need more time to get them into that idea of this is you now working and learning.
00:26:50.650 --> 00:26:57.365
And, you know, sometimes young people can take their time getting off to the idea of being in work.
00:26:57.365 --> 00:27:02.202
And yeah, that that also takes some time.
00:27:02.453 --> 00:27:43.619
Well, and the ability for them to grasp things as well not having done some study in in relation to the role can be a bit of a setback but I think would would a great mentoring hand it should be it should be okay to get them up to speed, but it will take more time with an apprentice getting them on, boarded them or getting a mental ID than you would give to graduate because a graduate knows every bit of software principles and and yeah, so they can deal with it much faster defined apprentices are better placed for work and that they're still used to the routine if they've come from school.
00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:55.714
Yeah, but they're still used to the routine of going to school compared to graduate has come out, has maybe had ten or 12 hours of lectures per week, maybe more of a social life.
00:27:55.714 --> 00:27:56.090
Yeah.
00:27:56.090 --> 00:27:59.760
Do you, do you notice any differences and not sense or.
00:27:59.803 --> 00:28:03.847
Not really, no. From experience, no.
00:28:03.972 --> 00:28:08.644
I think once someone decides to be an apprentice, they know what it entails.
00:28:08.644 --> 00:28:12.356
They know this is you know, this is full time, technically full time.
00:28:12.356 --> 00:28:17.319
Work with it with a day at uni and they know what they're getting themselves into.
00:28:17.653 --> 00:28:25.077
And they they are very equipped to go straight into those work life and they're, they're happy to do that.
00:28:25.494 --> 00:28:38.508
And well, most, most of them would be what I say, you know, you know, so most of them would be and but when it comes to a graduate, they might be used to, you know, the freedom of going to lecture.
00:28:38.508 --> 00:28:44.263
And some of them, if they wish to or not, but they and be more involved socially as well.
00:28:44.263 --> 00:28:59.194
So work isn't something they would have experience if their degree did not include a placement year or, you know, and unless they've experienced that in their placement year, they wouldn't know what to expect when it comes to work.
00:28:59.362 --> 00:29:07.787
But if it's a three straight year of straight three year degree, it might kind of like not prepare them enough for the world of work.
00:29:07.787 --> 00:29:14.085
But, you know, the hope is that every young person who has done a degree would know what to expect afterwards.
00:29:14.085 --> 00:29:17.337
And yeah, I guess straight into the night.
00:29:17.337 --> 00:29:19.965
What can it's not easy.
00:29:17.337 --> 00:29:19.965
It's it's never easy.
00:29:19.965 --> 00:30:05.220
I'm sure a lot of people would attest to even a lot of our young people who go into apprenticeship or even, you know, degree pathway as a university grad who would would be working anyway, many of them would be would be doing the evening jobs and and things like that prior to the path the pathway they've chosen. So yeah, I think maybe I'm doing them a disservice by saying to my not well equipped, but I think they would be if they've been involved in work prior to finishing school and if we've so, you know, if we've any parents or young people or teachers, I think there so you're you're saying there but those who have done work had some sort of evening job or hospitality working as a census worker.
00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:08.431
Yeah. Or 17 or whatever.
00:30:08.431 --> 00:30:15.355
Is that something you're looking for whenever applicants are coming through the subject of our experience, does that make them stand, though?
00:30:15.355 --> 00:30:16.897
Not necessarily.
00:30:16.897 --> 00:30:33.455
Not necessarily, because I think not everybody would have had the opportunity to to have done some bit of work before coming in as an apprentice or even even I say, you know, graduates of software engineer, not many of them would have had that opportunity.
00:30:33.748 --> 00:30:40.003
And we as a company would don't want to just, you know, as good people just because of that.
00:30:40.003 --> 00:30:42.382
We give everybody opportunity.
00:30:42.464 --> 00:30:50.138
It's more about the impression you make during interviews and how you come across and what your, you know, aspirations are.
00:30:50.138 --> 00:30:58.355
It's an obviously backs up with your maybe academic mix and any work experience you've done, which would be a plus.
00:30:58.355 --> 00:31:02.359
But it's not necessarily you know it doesn't cause a negative them.
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:09.741
Yeah if you don't have work experience so because we want to make it you know, we want to give everybody an equal opportunity as much as possible.
00:31:09.741 --> 00:31:11.118
Okay, great, Great.
00:31:11.118 --> 00:31:12.828
Esther, just a final question.
00:31:12.828 --> 00:31:15.999
Just as we as we close up the podcast today.
00:31:16.374 --> 00:31:21.546
So at workplace, we would leave work as really positive thing and do great things.
00:31:21.546 --> 00:31:24.798
And we've heard today about your the journey you've been on.
00:31:24.798 --> 00:31:27.093
But for you, what's so good about work?
00:31:28.135 --> 00:31:29.053
Work?
00:31:29.053 --> 00:31:33.432
Yes, I'm so good about who I work.
00:31:33.432 --> 00:31:37.144
Work for me is is an escape kind of place.
00:31:37.144 --> 00:31:40.147
You actually know what work is.
00:31:41.316 --> 00:31:43.276
There's how do I put it?
00:31:43.276 --> 00:31:49.656
I'm trying to put it in a way that is going to encourage people to go into work, especially young people.
00:31:50.365 --> 00:31:59.083
Work is, I think, is an important aspect of my life, really, because it means I go into work knowing that I'm making a difference.
00:31:59.500 --> 00:32:06.673
I go into work knowing that, you know, once when I get there, I get to interact with other people.
00:32:06.673 --> 00:32:13.181
I work with a great team of engineers who who, you know, I like talking to.
00:32:13.181 --> 00:32:15.642
And the social aspect of it is great.
00:32:15.974 --> 00:32:33.910
But at the same time, it's just going into work knowing that you'll you're producing software that is used by so many across the UK and Ireland and it's it just gives me joy to see to see that as you know, part of what I do every day.
00:32:33.910 --> 00:32:40.500
And yeah, don't get me wrong what can be it can be, you know, work is hard work, let's put it that way.
00:32:40.500 --> 00:32:46.088
It's never easy. And so nobody would have a delusion about that.
00:32:46.088 --> 00:32:50.218
But it's all about the positive aspects you get out of it in the end.
00:32:50.218 --> 00:32:53.512
It it outweighs whatever negatives there are.
00:32:53.887 --> 00:32:57.849
And yeah, getting up every day to go to work is is great for me.
00:32:57.976 --> 00:32:58.308
Okay.
00:32:58.308 --> 00:33:02.105
And my general, this question is I agree.
00:33:02.105 --> 00:33:03.690
I agree a great way to end.
00:33:03.690 --> 00:33:10.779
Esther wish you every success in your career all you're doing and thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today.
00:33:10.779 --> 00:33:12.949
You know, I appreciate you having me.
00:33:12.949 --> 00:33:15.326
And yeah, thank you very much. Okay.
00:33:15.367 --> 00:33:16.160
Thank you.
00:33:16.661 --> 00:33:17.953
Thanks for tuning in to work.
00:33:17.953 --> 00:33:26.295
Plus, if today's story gave you fresh perspective or helped you rethink what's possible, leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform or hit like and subscribe.
00:33:26.295 --> 00:33:28.297
It really does make a big difference.
00:33:28.297 --> 00:33:42.394
For more stories, resources and tools to help guide the next generation, visit Workplace Start up until next time.
00:00:00.041 --> 00:00:11.343
Apprenticeship is a good way to give young people the opportunity to learn on the job as well as study, because by the time they're true, the apprenticeship you don't need to import them anymore.
00:00:11.343 --> 00:00:13.054
They have the experiences already.
00:00:13.054 --> 00:00:15.390
It's a great opportunity. Yes.
00:00:15.974 --> 00:00:22.062
One thing the employers may say might be, do we have the resources to help these people get to where they need to be?
00:00:22.062 --> 00:00:25.817
But I think give it a go and see how you get on.
00:00:25.899 --> 00:00:28.152
There's no one size fits all here.
00:00:29.028 --> 00:00:29.946
Welcome to Work.
00:00:29.946 --> 00:00:35.243
Plus the podcast that shines a light on the people doing good work across Northern Ireland.
00:00:35.243 --> 00:00:37.829
I'm your host, Richard Clarke, finder of work.
00:00:37.871 --> 00:00:46.838
Plus, I spent years working with employers, schools, colleges and universities, helping young people and career changers to make better informed career decisions.
00:00:47.171 --> 00:00:54.179
Each week I sit down with real people doing real jobs to explore how they got there, what they've learned and why their work matters.
00:00:54.429 --> 00:01:01.143
If you're a parent, teacher, carer or just curious about what good work looks like today, you're in the right place.
00:01:01.478 --> 00:01:04.022
Let's dive in.
00:01:04.522 --> 00:01:07.316
Esther, it's so great to have you on the podcast today.
00:01:07.316 --> 00:01:10.153
Thanks for joining us. Q Great to be here.
00:01:11.780 --> 00:01:18.161
Chris Esther Hard it to come to be in Northern Ireland and you're from Nigeria originally, is that right?
00:01:18.286 --> 00:01:26.585
Yes, I'm originally from Nigeria and moved to Northern Ireland because I got married and my husband worked here.
00:01:26.753 --> 00:01:32.007
So yeah, I'm straight over for a living and so and I've been here since then.
00:01:32.007 --> 00:01:35.052
How long that was back in 2010.
00:01:35.219 --> 00:01:37.680
Okay, so I've been here for quite some time.
00:01:39.808 --> 00:01:42.519
And tell us about your by your your career journey.
00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:44.603
Like, how did that all start?
00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:44.603
Start like, for you?
00:01:44.646 --> 00:01:52.444
You know, you mentioned, you know, we were talking earlier that I just about working in Asda and things like that customer service rules like.
00:01:52.778 --> 00:01:54.822
Yeah yeah I heard it all start like for you. Yes.
00:01:54.822 --> 00:02:13.508
So after moving from Nigeria to here, obviously I had to kind of like start, start again and the first job that I had was the, you know, census collector role, which I actually did over in England before settling in Northern Ireland.
00:02:13.508 --> 00:02:43.955
So it was quite interesting because he made me help me to get comfortable with people and knocking at people's door and taps into to other people, which then went straight into, you know, customer service role in Asda down in Downpatrick and yeah, that was also very good because I just love working with customers, I love working with people and going to work to chat to other people is something I enjoy doing anyway.
00:02:43.955 --> 00:03:09.188
And yeah, and that's, that's how I kind of like started and got pregnant and in between my maternity period, then I decided to, you know, enroll on an access course, which I did, and went back to uni at Queen's as a more trusted NCO and yeah, got my degree and this is me now.
00:03:09.188 --> 00:03:10.606
Well, how did you find out?
00:03:10.606 --> 00:03:12.609
How did you find out about the access course?
00:03:12.609 --> 00:03:16.570
And what was it that sparked you to think I'd like to do something else.
00:03:16.570 --> 00:03:19.407
Yeah, I think. What can you customers is great.
00:03:19.407 --> 00:03:39.218
I'm working as a customer service agent in Asda is great, but at the same time I once had more a think because I that wasn't what I wanted to do for the rest of my life and because I'd studied a polytechnic computer science at a polytechnic in Nigeria, I thought, yeah, I'd love to go back to that.
00:03:39.218 --> 00:03:44.348
And I think German, Métis spirit, I just kind of like came to that conclusion.
00:03:44.348 --> 00:03:47.060
If I'm going to do something, it's better to do it now.
00:03:47.518 --> 00:03:55.526
And that was why I, you know, went back to, to uni and the access course was the bona Mitchell said.
00:03:55.526 --> 00:04:02.407
And I had no A-levels, I only had two so I couldn't go straight in, see any from, you know, my GCSE.
00:04:02.407 --> 00:04:06.454
So I needed something that is equivalent to A-levels.
00:04:06.788 --> 00:04:09.998
And the access course was the best way to do it.
00:04:09.998 --> 00:04:12.168
And I actually got that done.
00:04:12.168 --> 00:04:23.137
And you know, one of the Sirk Institute, like the Southern Regional Colleges and yeah, I did that for a year, I think, and then off I went to uni.
00:04:23.137 --> 00:04:23.596
Brilliant.
00:04:23.596 --> 00:04:26.723
And so did you do full time uni or did you do part time.
00:04:26.766 --> 00:04:27.766
Yeah, I did full time.
00:04:27.766 --> 00:04:31.771
You know that's the worry about things like childcare and things like that.
00:04:31.853 --> 00:04:36.942
But we, we made do and it's just I think it was all about determination.
00:04:36.942 --> 00:04:41.738
I knew what I wanted to do and knew where I wanted to get to eventually.
00:04:42.156 --> 00:04:56.795
And inasmuch as it wasn't easy, but I got quite a lot of support because I think a lot of Mitchell students were children can get the support if they're going into full time education, education and when it comes to childcare and all the support.
00:04:57.170 --> 00:05:05.471
So that really helped because it helped to cover some of the fees for, you know, in order for me to go to uni and get the degree that I needed.
00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:07.807
So yeah, yeah, lots of it.
00:05:07.807 --> 00:05:12.644
And so you mentioned the computer science when you were back in your polytechnic in, in Nigeria.
00:05:13.603 --> 00:05:17.774
Is that something that, that a lot of a lot of girls were choosing in your class or.
00:05:17.983 --> 00:05:36.668
Well, you know, actually when it comes to software and computer science, you know, back in the days mostly back in the days, the kids, you know, talking about it almost the same thing is now when you think about that back in Nigeria, it was something that girls can go into as well.
00:05:36.961 --> 00:05:47.137
You know, there was many girls in my class at the time, so it wasn't just a boy, you know, course that only boys said only men did.
00:05:47.137 --> 00:05:54.103
But women were also quite, quite very much exposed to and have had the opportunity to do such degrees.
00:05:54.103 --> 00:06:01.569
And yeah, it's not it's not as I wouldn't say it's bad here because of noughties girls.
00:06:01.569 --> 00:06:24.216
You don't get many girls going into stem STEM courses or degrees and that's not something that is, you know, that I saw in my polytechnic years and it would be great to have the same, you know, the same thing here whereby we have many women and girls going to, you know, so-called men dominated in jobs or degrees.
00:06:24.216 --> 00:06:25.300
So, yeah.
00:06:25.300 --> 00:06:32.682
Do you think there are barriers for for young women thinking about computer science or software?
00:06:32.682 --> 00:06:34.476
Like do they understand what it is?
00:06:34.476 --> 00:06:37.646
It's not I wouldn't say necessarily.
00:06:37.646 --> 00:07:10.096
I think going into computer science or social engineering is something you need to have a passion for, because it's one thing saying we want more, more girls involved in social engineering, but if that's not what they really want to do, you know, a probably sign up to to the degree and dropouts eventually and because I saw quite a lot of that during my university is you get you get a class full of you know boys and girls almost and the same ratio.
00:07:10.387 --> 00:07:17.519
And after some time you see those that probably were doing software engineering or computer science automatically drifting.
00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:20.730
So things like business information technology.
00:07:20.730 --> 00:07:35.954
So those less heavy coding courses, I'm not sure what the reason is, but I think it's all it's all about passion and determination to in terms of your ambitions and what you want to do.
00:07:36.329 --> 00:07:45.755
And that's probably a gap We need to plug in secondary schools and you know, for our education and things like that. Yes.
00:07:45.964 --> 00:07:48.425
Yeah, yeah. It's a tricky one.
00:07:45.964 --> 00:07:48.425
I'm for you.
00:07:48.468 --> 00:07:50.761
You said it was something you wanted to do from a young age.
00:07:50.761 --> 00:07:53.930
What was it that attracted you to doing that?
00:07:53.930 --> 00:07:59.728
Oh, it's I just love the idea of, you know, sitting down and writing code and seeing it do something. You know?
00:07:59.769 --> 00:08:06.860
I like the like that, you know, that was something that motivated me because I want to see results, result.
00:08:07.110 --> 00:08:08.737
I'm a result driven person.
00:08:08.737 --> 00:08:11.156
So if I'm doing something, it has to have a purpose.
00:08:11.531 --> 00:08:27.048
And when it comes to could in itself, so development, when you sit down and you build something from scratch and you know, just an a click of a button, you see your, you know, your hard work, kind of like performing is set in, you know, events holds.
00:08:27.548 --> 00:08:32.720
That's that was what motivated me really, because I just like to tinker.
00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:37.975
I like to get into things and break things and see how they work and then fix it again.
00:08:37.975 --> 00:08:44.440
So software and computers, you know, software engineering, help me do that.
00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:52.322
And so tell us, like what are some of the things you've been working on then since you've so you did your degree to jump straight to work?
00:08:52.322 --> 00:08:57.370
Yes, I did my degree in Straight to Work because I set it off, you know, working.
00:08:57.370 --> 00:09:01.791
Once I said a uni, my unit, my degree pathway included placement year.
00:09:01.791 --> 00:09:04.125
So I kind of like set it off.
00:09:04.376 --> 00:09:08.297
Then Tesco me which was then acquired and now I don't.
00:09:08.339 --> 00:09:32.654
So that's why I've set in my career and you know, on still with the same company and of worked you know we do software development and that's that's what I've been much involved in after my placement went back as a graduate and dive straight into I, you know, into a support role and then you know develop, maintain and building features into our products.
00:09:33.114 --> 00:09:37.868
And yeah, it's been, it's been a long it's I love it.
00:09:38.410 --> 00:09:59.222
But at the same time the area when it comes to people management and you know having to make changes on a management level that that was where I wanted to take it, but also within the software industry because I do want to get away from that because it's something that I always loved and something I think I'll go through for quite some time.
00:09:59.222 --> 00:10:09.942
So yeah, give us an example and of, you know, you talked about you like to put in code and see what comes out the other side or yeah, what are some examples of things that you've created then.
00:10:10.025 --> 00:10:10.650
Yeah.
00:10:10.650 --> 00:10:21.828
So in one of the projects I walk or I walked on was because we, we as a software company, we'd produce software that, you know, local governments would use.
00:10:21.828 --> 00:10:27.626
But here in Northern Ireland and across, you know, I sort of Ireland as well as mainland UK.
00:10:27.876 --> 00:10:47.145
So some of the stuff so we have a custom of hotel whereby it's, you know, public facing and you know, those I had to build in a feature whereby the customers can be able to kind of like self-serve and do certain things that they usually wouldn't be able to do, you know, from the customer portal.
00:10:47.145 --> 00:11:03.078
And that even after today, whenever I see that feature and that you know, that aspect of of our products, I kind of like I say some of so yes, this is my ideal space and you know is still is still there, you know, and it's not going to go away, hopefully.
00:11:03.078 --> 00:11:16.174
And no, it's I think it's sometimes when it comes to software development, it's what motivates a lot of engineers would be building something that is useful and stays there for a very long time.
00:11:16.174 --> 00:11:35.068
And that was one of the projects I also seen is still been, you know, helping the customers or even, you know, the public be able to apply for products using our software and helping the customer do their own, you know, self-serve and not have to retail to us to do certain things.
00:11:35.735 --> 00:11:38.489
Yeah that that that was very good one for me.
00:11:38.739 --> 00:11:42.076
Now you're in a you're an engineering manager in that role.
00:11:42.076 --> 00:11:43.785
So are you.
00:11:43.785 --> 00:11:48.039
You've got responsibility for for software engineers and in your team. Yes I did.
00:11:48.039 --> 00:11:55.423
About, about what that. Well I've recently come into this new role anyway.
00:11:55.423 --> 00:12:13.149
But prior to that I was the person support lead were also manage a small team of engineers who focused mainly on you know, customer support and on the technical side and yeah so team manager and is something that I've already started work at them.
00:12:13.149 --> 00:12:33.586
But now as a software engineer manager it's it's it's never easy money to manage in a team but it's it's an interesting role because now I'm you know I'm much more involved in a lot of decision making that I wouldn't have been in the first place, just making sure my team is working, you know, working effectively.
00:12:33.586 --> 00:12:39.048
They're happy, you know, because I think having a happy team means you're going to get work done.
00:12:39.048 --> 00:12:45.346
But if if the team isn't happy or motivated to do to do work, you're not going to get much out of them.
00:12:45.346 --> 00:12:50.436
So I think as a software engineer or manager, those things are important to me.
00:12:50.436 --> 00:12:52.687
Making sure that my team is happy and must be said.
00:12:52.687 --> 00:13:02.072
And, you know, in order for us to get results and get our products out there for our customers. And yeah, so yeah, it is challenging.
00:13:02.072 --> 00:13:14.710
So for our kids, you know, get in, get it in content, in contacts in what can well with stakeholders as well it's is really, really important in making you know making the team work well yeah.
00:13:14.876 --> 00:13:19.840
Are things there that you've that you've had to learn fresh or even looking back.
00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:22.927
Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:22.927 --> 00:13:30.683
And so yeah so tell us about more of I just, you know Yeah, there's so many, so much to learn now as a service.
00:13:30.683 --> 00:13:50.287
So to a manager because you know it's not I think it's the same for every, every role really once is you never stop learning inasmuch as you might have a lot, you know, as much as I might have a lot of knowledge already as a sort of a, you know, as a pretty spot lead managing it team and all of that.
00:13:50.287 --> 00:14:09.849
But that's also engineering manager takes it of not obeys sometimes the challenges I think in this is being able to work with other people and actually be patient enough, you know, to listen to others, to listen to their concerns and not having to jump into things quickly.
00:14:09.974 --> 00:14:19.399
You know, it's it's important to take a step back and see and see things from other people's perspective before decisions can be made and finalized.
00:14:19.774 --> 00:14:33.121
And that's something I'm learning to do more of as just listen to people more and understand why they are unhappy about certain things, especially, you know, when it comes to products and working with others.
00:14:33.121 --> 00:14:37.208
Because when it comes to social engineering, it's not just the software engineering team.
00:14:37.458 --> 00:14:40.546
It encompasses a lot of other stakeholders that are involved.
00:14:40.546 --> 00:14:43.756
There's a queuing saying, there's a product saying there's a project team.
00:14:43.756 --> 00:14:51.764
And you know, and when you think about bring all of those people together, that's a lot of people that you have to, you know, do it every single day.
00:14:51.764 --> 00:14:54.309
And it's important that everybody's on the same page.
00:14:54.309 --> 00:14:57.270
And that's the you know, that's my current telling.
00:14:57.270 --> 00:15:03.735
DEADLINE making sure that we're all on the same page and we're all kind of like, you know, singing the same notes.
00:15:03.735 --> 00:15:05.321
So, yeah, highly.
00:15:05.321 --> 00:15:06.947
Yeah, that's something.
00:15:06.947 --> 00:15:13.662
There might be some young people who are thinking, well, software engineering, it sounds like it's going to be me and my laptop.
00:15:13.662 --> 00:15:15.914
Yeah, by myself. By myself.
00:15:15.914 --> 00:15:19.626
But it sounds very different from the way you've just described it. There.
00:15:19.626 --> 00:15:30.053
So if they're thinking, I'm not sure this is for me, because I don't think I could do that by myself or just be in a room by this, what would you say?
00:15:30.053 --> 00:15:35.768
Oh, no, Software engineering is not just about you're sitting there on your laptop every single day.
00:15:35.768 --> 00:15:38.562
No, it involves you know, it's a team.
00:15:38.895 --> 00:15:46.486
I would say the team sports, you know, it can you can relate it to a team sport whereby you'd be working in a team.
00:15:46.903 --> 00:15:48.572
You know, you'll be talking to your team.
00:15:48.572 --> 00:15:54.495
You know, you kind of make sure you're building software that, you know, walks along the rest of your team.
00:15:54.495 --> 00:15:58.874
So it's not just a case of you sitting there and just walking, being alone.
00:15:58.874 --> 00:16:02.919
If you want to do that, I'm sure your team can make room for you to do that now and again.
00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:10.594
But it's also involves chatting to other people, making sure you're engaged and aware of what your other team members are working on.
00:16:10.594 --> 00:16:17.225
And yeah, just being in the loop and it's not it's not a one man band really.
00:16:17.225 --> 00:16:19.186
So it does involve other people.
00:16:19.186 --> 00:16:21.105
What are you, an introvert or an extrovert?
00:16:21.105 --> 00:16:26.652
As always, You know, there's room for you in software development, so please, please give it a go.
00:16:27.735 --> 00:16:29.947
I think it does that.
00:16:30.447 --> 00:16:32.073
You also know that.
00:16:32.073 --> 00:16:33.075
No, absolutely I don't.
00:16:33.075 --> 00:16:40.416
I think sometimes before people get young, people might get scared because, you know, they think or is just going to be myself on my laptop.
00:16:40.416 --> 00:16:41.917
No, it's not.
00:16:41.917 --> 00:16:50.466
And I think what we've tried to introduce within the team in my my company is to encourage people to come to the office and engage with others.
00:16:50.466 --> 00:16:56.222
Now and again, you know, their social aspects is also there and it just keeps us going.
00:16:56.264 --> 00:16:59.058
I guess parents aren't that well.
00:16:59.475 --> 00:17:00.601
We got to know each other.
00:17:00.601 --> 00:17:09.486
A couple of years ago when I'd started working with work, plus to think about bringing in talent and in a slightly different way.
00:17:09.486 --> 00:17:16.785
Can you tell us about about the journey that I was going on, you know, to get to the point where they were thinking about new talent pathways? Yes.
00:17:16.785 --> 00:17:28.380
So in the past, like like I said, I came into this company as came in as a summer intern at first in after my first year of uni, and then Kevin came back as a placements student.
00:17:28.380 --> 00:17:52.904
So it's something we've always, you know, had it's, we've always been open to news, been bringing new talents in and making sure we provide young people the opportunity to get the experience that they need and just to see what it's like being a software engineer and hopefully it's a concrete decision and then software engineers and those opportunities are always there.
00:17:52.904 --> 00:17:58.367
And so we made sure that we we keep that roots open.
00:17:58.868 --> 00:18:15.426
And I think a few years ago after we come in, you know, I first met you really kind of like we started thinking about apprenticeship and how we can get apprentices into our workplace and in order to make sure that we're still providing people with those opportunities.
00:18:15.426 --> 00:18:17.721
And just as as much as we can.
00:18:17.721 --> 00:18:36.615
And apprenticeship is one way that we thought we'll be able to, you know, give more to young, young people not just by offering placement positions, but also including apprentice apprenticeship as part of, you know, that that, you know, growth within the team.
00:18:36.906 --> 00:18:49.336
So and and it's something we've taken on so far and everybody is on board and it seems to be going well so far and now we're taking on more apprentices you know, this year as well.
00:18:49.670 --> 00:19:00.305
So it's a great opportunity and it also opens the door for young people that do not want to maybe do university degree Monday to Friday.
00:19:00.346 --> 00:19:07.145
Yeah, you know, it's a big opportunity whereby you get to study and you get to work and you get to earn at the same time.
00:19:07.145 --> 00:19:13.527
So if there's no reason for you to do apprenticeship, I think earning is one the hall of the last of them.
00:19:13.902 --> 00:19:17.114
But no, it's a huge opportunity for any young person.
00:19:17.114 --> 00:19:20.741
And apprenticeship, you know, apprenticeship is, is a good way to go.
00:19:20.867 --> 00:19:32.296
If you were talking to an employer who's only ever maybe thought a bite taken on graduates that maybe dipped their toe in the order of placements, how does apprenticeships fit into that hope?
00:19:32.296 --> 00:19:33.337
What would you say to them?
00:19:33.337 --> 00:19:35.632
A By a did apprenticeships if they were filling?
00:19:35.632 --> 00:19:38.009
Yeah, I'm not sure whether that's for us.
00:19:38.009 --> 00:19:49.188
I think we need to think, first of all as employers, how can we help our young people, you know, grow and make them better at what they do?
00:19:49.605 --> 00:20:03.743
Apprenticeship is a good way to give, feel, give young people that the opportunity to learn on the job as well as study, because by the time they're through the apprenticeship is you know you don't need to import them anymore.
00:20:03.743 --> 00:20:05.412
They have the experiences already.
00:20:05.412 --> 00:20:11.167
They're probably already involved in a lot of projects that the company is already, you know, ongoing projects.
00:20:11.542 --> 00:20:15.005
And it's a great opportunity. Yes.
00:20:15.631 --> 00:20:22.596
One thing the employers may say might be, do we have the resources to help these people get to where they need to be?
00:20:22.596 --> 00:20:26.432
But I think give it a go and see how you get on.
00:20:26.432 --> 00:20:30.519
You know, there's no there's no one size fits all here.
00:20:31.230 --> 00:20:33.898
Apprenticeship might differ from company to company.
00:20:33.898 --> 00:20:49.664
Before for us, we found it a good way to get young people in and get them growing and becoming more comfortable with our software over time and as the like, they they become part of the team and get that.
00:20:49.664 --> 00:21:18.734
And at the moment, one of our apprentices is currently helping other general, you know, like the placement sit ins coming in and other junior people as well to, you know, understand the products a bit more and they're much more they're doing bigger some big projects as well, which is, which is one thing I know some employers might think, oh a prince apprentices but on what are they going to be able to do for us was we bring them in but don't be afraid to challenge them.
00:21:18.734 --> 00:21:20.362
You know them.
00:21:20.362 --> 00:21:24.199
Brandon, who we have now, hopefully he's not going to mind me saying his name.
00:21:24.199 --> 00:21:28.537
He he's, he's been amazing and he's been offering me projects to bring his way.
00:21:28.537 --> 00:21:30.998
You know, he's ready to just jump in, I think.
00:21:31.205 --> 00:21:32.582
Give them the opportunity.
00:21:32.582 --> 00:21:36.044
I don't think they they don't have the knowledge to.
00:21:36.252 --> 00:21:38.380
They can only learn if you let them.
00:21:39.256 --> 00:21:45.470
So, so good to hear as a business, is there a better return on your investment from an apprentice compared to graduates?
00:21:45.470 --> 00:21:47.763
I wouldn't want to compare that way.
00:21:47.847 --> 00:21:59.442
Okay, So we really want to convey that way because I think whatever choice young people make in order to get to their career, you know, goal eventually is up to them.
00:21:59.817 --> 00:22:08.492
But as an employer, I know because if we start comparing it that way, we'll probably end up just hiring apprentices and not hire graduates.
00:22:08.492 --> 00:22:12.998
But we want to make sure graduate graduates have put in the work.
00:22:12.998 --> 00:22:18.836
They've been full time studies, you know, for three or four years, depending on which pathway they choose.
00:22:19.211 --> 00:22:20.588
And apprentices.
00:22:20.588 --> 00:22:34.394
From my own perspective as a company, I think apprentices for us is is valuable because okay, like I said earlier, you're already equipping them with all the tools they need to be part of the company.
00:22:34.685 --> 00:22:54.873
But when a credit comes in, you know, even though it's after three years or four years of of degree of study and you're going to have to spend time to embody them and get them up to speed whereby an apprentice who is probably two or three years into their, you know, degree pathway have already surpassed, you know, a grade has had their say.
00:22:54.873 --> 00:23:08.345
So if you put it into those two prospective, you can say maybe apprentice apprenticeship is much more value, but every, every pathway has its own benefits at the same time.
00:23:08.428 --> 00:23:09.762
Yeah, Yeah.
00:23:09.762 --> 00:23:45.132
Trying to be a political hand you know it's I was I was I was talking to a very large organization recently and they said that they had stopped their graduate and take because apprentices have been so powerful both for bringing in new people, young people, but also bringing in people who are career changers. You because for someone to get into that organization, if they just if they just had graduate positions, they a person would need to go and get a degree, maybe much like you had to do.
00:23:45.423 --> 00:23:45.757
Yeah.
00:23:45.757 --> 00:23:50.470
Esther And then prove themselves that they got that degree to get the job as a graduate.
00:23:50.470 --> 00:23:55.182
But the company has said they're bringing in 40 or 50 per year.
00:23:55.182 --> 00:23:58.185
Yeah, they're saying we just want to keep the door as open as possible.
00:23:58.185 --> 00:24:04.067
And they've had people actually they've a lady who's a a grandmother who's just become an apprentice.
00:24:04.483 --> 00:24:09.489
So so the other end of the spectrum and if they if they just maybe had that graduate in tech.
00:24:09.489 --> 00:24:20.291
But anyway it's I know that's unusual for a company to make a complete shift, but I'm always interested to understand the how the company thinks about those.
00:24:20.291 --> 00:24:20.625
Yeah.
00:24:20.625 --> 00:24:30.009
No, no, the reason they are thinking, you know, is actually quite valid, you know, But at the same time, we don't want to shut down graduates pathway.
00:24:30.009 --> 00:24:36.974
You know, we still want to keep it open and give everybody equal opportunity whatever path.
00:24:36.974 --> 00:24:38.727
Yes, I totally, totally.
00:24:38.727 --> 00:24:46.442
You mentioned both some of the costs of bringing in an apprentice in terms of onboarding them, etc., and their salary and all that because it's a job.
00:24:46.859 --> 00:24:55.035
But mentoring can be something which employers would say, Oh, actually we don't have the capacity to mentor an apprentice.
00:24:55.035 --> 00:24:57.203
But tell us a bit about what your experience has been.
00:24:57.203 --> 00:24:59.538
Yeah, main trend is one.
00:24:57.203 --> 00:24:59.538
One thing.
00:24:59.538 --> 00:25:06.046
I think that is something that will be number one thing to think about first before we even think about costs.
00:25:06.046 --> 00:25:29.986
Because when you think about the time, it would take another engineer and they'd say no, those similarly mid mid-level engineers who are on board or mentor an apprentice, when you think about all of that, you you wonder in terms of the the corporate goal and objectives, does this actually align with what we're aiming for or how is it going to affect us?
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:32.196
So you need to think about the resources.
00:25:32.196 --> 00:25:41.373
If you don't have the manpower to, you know, mentor and give time to those apprentices, I think you'll be doing them, you know, a disfavor kind of.
00:25:41.373 --> 00:25:49.005
So you need to make sure you have the people there to mentor, guide them and get them to where they need to be, you know, in their career.
00:25:49.381 --> 00:25:52.299
And that that should be the first thing ever company should think about.
00:25:52.299 --> 00:26:05.564
First of all, before we even bring in the idea of the cost of getting The Apprentice into the company is a quite similar to in terms of the responsibility of that mentor to a graduate coming in.
00:26:05.980 --> 00:26:07.691
Or is it is it is it more onerous?
00:26:07.691 --> 00:26:09.483
Is it less onerous?
00:26:07.691 --> 00:26:09.483
Is it about the same?
00:26:09.483 --> 00:26:24.958
I think I think that's that's why when it comes to graduates, it would and I don't think it would require the same amount of time you give a grant a mentor would give a graduates you know to be given to an apprentice as well because apprentices will be coming in straight out.
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:36.344
You know, most of them will be coming straight out of secondary school and they've got no you know, I don't want to say they've got no maturity, you know, because they are much they're going into work.
00:26:36.635 --> 00:26:43.934
But you know, being in university, I suppose, is due to more of the things than, you know, coming in as an apprentice.
00:26:43.934 --> 00:26:50.650
So they're going to need more time to get them into that idea of this is you now working and learning.
00:26:50.650 --> 00:26:57.365
And, you know, sometimes young people can take their time getting off to the idea of being in work.
00:26:57.365 --> 00:27:02.202
And yeah, that that also takes some time.
00:27:02.453 --> 00:27:43.619
Well, and the ability for them to grasp things as well not having done some study in in relation to the role can be a bit of a setback but I think would would a great mentoring hand it should be it should be okay to get them up to speed, but it will take more time with an apprentice getting them on, boarded them or getting a mental ID than you would give to graduate because a graduate knows every bit of software principles and and yeah, so they can deal with it much faster defined apprentices are better placed for work and that they're still used to the routine if they've come from school.
00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:55.714
Yeah, but they're still used to the routine of going to school compared to graduate has come out, has maybe had ten or 12 hours of lectures per week, maybe more of a social life.
00:27:55.714 --> 00:27:56.090
Yeah.
00:27:56.090 --> 00:27:59.760
Do you, do you notice any differences and not sense or.
00:27:59.803 --> 00:28:03.847
Not really, no. From experience, no.
00:28:03.972 --> 00:28:08.644
I think once someone decides to be an apprentice, they know what it entails.
00:28:08.644 --> 00:28:12.356
They know this is you know, this is full time, technically full time.
00:28:12.356 --> 00:28:17.319
Work with it with a day at uni and they know what they're getting themselves into.
00:28:17.653 --> 00:28:25.077
And they they are very equipped to go straight into those work life and they're, they're happy to do that.
00:28:25.494 --> 00:28:38.508
And well, most, most of them would be what I say, you know, you know, so most of them would be and but when it comes to a graduate, they might be used to, you know, the freedom of going to lecture.
00:28:38.508 --> 00:28:44.263
And some of them, if they wish to or not, but they and be more involved socially as well.
00:28:44.263 --> 00:28:59.194
So work isn't something they would have experience if their degree did not include a placement year or, you know, and unless they've experienced that in their placement year, they wouldn't know what to expect when it comes to work.
00:28:59.362 --> 00:29:07.787
But if it's a three straight year of straight three year degree, it might kind of like not prepare them enough for the world of work.
00:29:07.787 --> 00:29:14.085
But, you know, the hope is that every young person who has done a degree would know what to expect afterwards.
00:29:14.085 --> 00:29:17.337
And yeah, I guess straight into the night.
00:29:17.337 --> 00:29:19.965
What can it's not easy.
00:29:17.337 --> 00:29:19.965
It's it's never easy.
00:29:19.965 --> 00:30:05.220
I'm sure a lot of people would attest to even a lot of our young people who go into apprenticeship or even, you know, degree pathway as a university grad who would would be working anyway, many of them would be would be doing the evening jobs and and things like that prior to the path the pathway they've chosen. So yeah, I think maybe I'm doing them a disservice by saying to my not well equipped, but I think they would be if they've been involved in work prior to finishing school and if we've so, you know, if we've any parents or young people or teachers, I think there so you're you're saying there but those who have done work had some sort of evening job or hospitality working as a census worker.
00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:08.431
Yeah. Or 17 or whatever.
00:30:08.431 --> 00:30:15.355
Is that something you're looking for whenever applicants are coming through the subject of our experience, does that make them stand, though?
00:30:15.355 --> 00:30:16.897
Not necessarily.
00:30:16.897 --> 00:30:33.455
Not necessarily, because I think not everybody would have had the opportunity to to have done some bit of work before coming in as an apprentice or even even I say, you know, graduates of software engineer, not many of them would have had that opportunity.
00:30:33.748 --> 00:30:40.003
And we as a company would don't want to just, you know, as good people just because of that.
00:30:40.003 --> 00:30:42.382
We give everybody opportunity.
00:30:42.464 --> 00:30:50.138
It's more about the impression you make during interviews and how you come across and what your, you know, aspirations are.
00:30:50.138 --> 00:30:58.355
It's an obviously backs up with your maybe academic mix and any work experience you've done, which would be a plus.
00:30:58.355 --> 00:31:02.359
But it's not necessarily you know it doesn't cause a negative them.
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:09.741
Yeah if you don't have work experience so because we want to make it you know, we want to give everybody an equal opportunity as much as possible.
00:31:09.741 --> 00:31:11.118
Okay, great, Great.
00:31:11.118 --> 00:31:12.828
Esther, just a final question.
00:31:12.828 --> 00:31:15.999
Just as we as we close up the podcast today.
00:31:16.374 --> 00:31:21.546
So at workplace, we would leave work as really positive thing and do great things.
00:31:21.546 --> 00:31:24.798
And we've heard today about your the journey you've been on.
00:31:24.798 --> 00:31:27.093
But for you, what's so good about work?
00:31:28.135 --> 00:31:29.053
Work?
00:31:29.053 --> 00:31:33.432
Yes, I'm so good about who I work.
00:31:33.432 --> 00:31:37.144
Work for me is is an escape kind of place.
00:31:37.144 --> 00:31:40.147
You actually know what work is.
00:31:41.316 --> 00:31:43.276
There's how do I put it?
00:31:43.276 --> 00:31:49.656
I'm trying to put it in a way that is going to encourage people to go into work, especially young people.
00:31:50.365 --> 00:31:59.083
Work is, I think, is an important aspect of my life, really, because it means I go into work knowing that I'm making a difference.
00:31:59.500 --> 00:32:06.673
I go into work knowing that, you know, once when I get there, I get to interact with other people.
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I work with a great team of engineers who who, you know, I like talking to.
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And the social aspect of it is great.
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But at the same time, it's just going into work knowing that you'll you're producing software that is used by so many across the UK and Ireland and it's it just gives me joy to see to see that as you know, part of what I do every day.
00:32:33.910 --> 00:32:40.500
And yeah, don't get me wrong what can be it can be, you know, work is hard work, let's put it that way.
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It's never easy. And so nobody would have a delusion about that.
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But it's all about the positive aspects you get out of it in the end.
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It it outweighs whatever negatives there are.
00:32:53.887 --> 00:32:57.849
And yeah, getting up every day to go to work is is great for me.
00:32:57.976 --> 00:32:58.308
Okay.
00:32:58.308 --> 00:33:02.105
And my general, this question is I agree.
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I agree a great way to end.
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Esther wish you every success in your career all you're doing and thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today.
00:33:10.779 --> 00:33:12.949
You know, I appreciate you having me.
00:33:12.949 --> 00:33:15.326
And yeah, thank you very much. Okay.
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Thank you.
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Thanks for tuning in to work.
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Plus, if today's story gave you fresh perspective or helped you rethink what's possible, leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform or hit like and subscribe.
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It really does make a big difference.
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