Apple Showdown: Pie vs. Cake, featuring Erin McDowell

WEBVTT
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Hey bakers, before we get into the episode, I need to tell you something.
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Things bakers know listeners, get a discount.
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Okay, now let's get Jessica in here and start the episode.
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No, I like an album.
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Well, I was about to ask you, yeah, what are you gonna take aside or not?
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I no, I'm not gonna take a side because I do like them.
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No, you think you're better than me.
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From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Now.
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I'm David Tamarkin, employee owner at King Arthur Baking.
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And I'm Jessica Batalana, employee owner at King Arthur Baking.
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And today, befitting the season, we're talking about apples.
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Of course, because it's fall and also people are just obsessed with apples, but we wanted to overlay like a little competition onto this.
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Oh, yeah.
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I mean, I guess.
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So we we're talking about two baking rivals, apple pie versus apple cake.
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Right.
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So it's gonna be an all Jess Opinions episode.
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I can feel it now.
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Yeah.
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In the air.
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But I want to stop you there.
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I want to gas you up a little before we get into Jess Opinions.
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It's actually not gassing you up, it's gassing up the state that reared you.
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Okay.
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And and where you are off in where we are right now, the state we're in right now.
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Uh as listeners know, if they've been paying attention, uh, I'm from the Midwest.
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I'm a big booster of the Midwest, constantly talking about how great Ohio is.
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Yep, a lot of Ohio pride.
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And in Ohio, we like to tell ourselves that we have good apples there.
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My mom particularly, every fall is on the phone with me to be like, Well, you know we have great apples in Ohio.
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Okay.
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Which I used to think was true.
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And Ohio is one of the top ten apple producers in the country.
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Okay.
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And I live in New York now.
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The big apple.
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The big apple, exactly.
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Another famous, famous apple producing state.
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Sure.
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And the apples there are fine, you know, they're they're okay.
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Um and I used to like them more because I didn't know any better.
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But now, Jessica, after spending so much time in Vermont over the past five years, having spent so many falls in Vermont and going to the markets here, even the even the basic grocery stores and getting bushels, bushels of apples for myself, I now know what a real apple is supposed to taste like.
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The Vermont apples and the New Hampshire apples, since we're right here on the border, are unreal.
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Case closed Vermont apples are the best.
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Truly case closed.
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It's about it's it's about the cold nights, right?
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I think so.
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You know, they bring out the best in apples.
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Um, and so now whenever fall hits, truly, I find myself, you know, carting apples back to New York.
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I have an obsession with Vermont apples.
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It did something to my brain, it sort of ruined me.
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It especially ruined me for apples out of season.
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Because I will now dabble in New York State apples.
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If I'm in Ohio in the fall, yeah, sure I'll eat an apple there.
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And no, Shade, they are good.
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And an apple in season is a good thing.
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But these apples in March at the grocery store, apples in January, I'm not doing it.
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It's interesting to think about.
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I mean, I think there's some fruits that we we know are seasonal fruits.
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You know, we think about like your peaches, your strawberries, like people still, I think still, even in this like globalized world, they still are like, oh yeah, that's a su those are summer fruits.
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Right.
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But just because you can get them year round doesn't mean they're good year round.
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And this is now like this is the season.
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And I so I understand why people like all the search traffic, okay, no, maybe not all, but a lot of the search traffic on our site flips.
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Oh yeah.
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End of August.
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People are just like, apple bakes.
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Apple bakes.
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Apple bakes, apple bakes.
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And you know, it's August is not the wrong time, honestly.
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Summer apples are a delicious thing.
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You know, early apples, you know, have you ever had those?
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Like these kind of small summer apples?
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They're tart, they're crisp.
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I mean, they're do not discount the summer apple, but let's be very clear.
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A summer apple is a seasonal apple, right?
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It's an apple that is only it's not one of these evergreen apples that you find in a grocery store.
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I also think part of it is what I like to call the Vermont mystique.
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When I lived in California for a million years, we would still go apple picking.
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There are apples there.
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You know, there's interesting varieties of apples.
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Really?
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But you'd go and it would be like hot out.
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Oh no.
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You know, and that is not the apple picking experience I grew up with.
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It was like, oh no.
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You go on a day with like a bluebird day, bluebird sky, little touch of crispness.
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Like you go in the morning, you're wearing your sweater, but by the time you get there, you're like, it's warm enough to peel it off.
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You need to be in your vest.
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Yeah, you need to be in your vest.
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So it needs to be vest weather.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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Okay, I agree with you.
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And we've set the scene now.
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We've set the scene.
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We're in our vest.
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It's fall.
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And just like you're talking about, I have so many positive associations with fall and apples.
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I think that has a lot to do with what you're talking about.
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Perfect apple picking weather.
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Uh, but also, of course, Thanksgiving apple pie.
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Apple cake for Rosh Hashanah is a thing.
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Yep.
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And of course, the fall is sort of state fair time.
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Oh yeah.
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As I just mentioned, I grew up in Ohio and witnessed so much horrific bobbing for apples in my childhood.
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No, even as a kid, I knew that was not okay.
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Well, A, I'm sure it like taps into your fear of germs.
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Absolutely.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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How far do you get your face in?
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Sometimes you have to get your face really far because you need like to hit the apple against like the side of the thing or the bottom of the vessel in order to like bottom.
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Like to get like purchase on it with your teeth.
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It's also humiliating.
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It's like there you're like your head in a bucket of water, you're like drowning yourself.
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Like it makes no sense.
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For an apple.
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For an apple.
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But you know what?
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These were mine apples, maybe it's worth it.
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Well, you know, our producer really set this up because she was like, I want their, I want you guys to choose a side.
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Choose your fighter.
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She sure did.
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Apple pie or apple cake.
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And you and I were like, we were we won't do it.
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You know what?
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I love both apple cake and apple pie.
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What are some of your favorite apple desserts?
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Okay, well, I like cake better.
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If I bean okay, she forced my hand.
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I do love an apple cake.
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I like any apple cake that's a crumb cake with a pump topping.
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So like any apple coffee cake, but I also like a classic like apple bun cake.
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Maybe a little glaze on it or something.
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One of my favorite apple cakes is from Claire Savitz's first book.
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And the reason why I like it is because the apples are thinly sliced, but then you saute them in some butter and some sugar, and you get them really soft before you incorporate them into the batter.
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You know, there's two approaches.
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Well, there's more than two approaches, but there's a spectrum of apple cakes, right?
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And some of them, as you describe, have you cooking the apples first.
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Yeah.
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But others, which I like because I'm extremely lazy, just have you chopping up like our old-fashioned apple cake with the brown sugar frosting, which swept the nation last year when we were we were promoting as part of our all 49 must-bake recipes.
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It was like our top recipe to bake.
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Right.
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It has one gazillion.
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That's maybe a slight exaggeration, but it has hundreds of reviews.
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Yeah.
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People love it.
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And that has you dicing apples into small dice and then folding them into the battery.
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And when you look at that, you're like, this isn't gonna work.
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Exactly.
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I'm always a little bit scared about the is this apple going to cook through.
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I mean, I think the cake is sort of counting on the moisture coming out of those apples as part of the like you mix it together and you're like, there's barely enough batter.
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You let it sit five minutes and it loosens up, you know, as the apples start to release some of their moisture.
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And with pie, I feel like the risk of the apples not baking is a little lower.
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Correct me if you think I'm wrong here, but you can keep a pie going.
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You know, I don't I don't usually worry about over baking a pie.
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I feel like people chronically underbake their pies.
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I like a dark pie.
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Yes.
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I can keep cooking the pie until those, until I know those apples are done, until I see the piping, right?
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The piping in the middle of the pie.
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I think you're right.
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I think m far more people underbake their apple pies, which is a crime.
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Yeah.
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Because the dough is it's not raw, but it's not cooked enough.
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It's not like GBD, golden brown, delicious.
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And then the filling is like the apples can still actually be hard and also wet.
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It's hard, it's wet, it's hot.
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It's weird.
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I mean, that's weird.
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Are we both on teamcake?
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No, I like an apple pie.
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Well, I was about to ask you, yeah, what are you gonna take aside or not?
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I no, I'm not gonna take a side because I do like them.
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No, you think you're better than me.
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But I do think there are a lot more bad examples of apple pie.
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You know, I think it's harder to get an apple pie right.
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And I but there's a number of factors that go into that.
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I think I agree with that.
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I think I think in general, I think it's harder to get pie right than cake.
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Yeah, I think that's true.
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Regardless of apple.
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But I do think when a pie is great, an apple pie is great, it is a really magnificent showcase for the apples themselves.
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I agree with that as well.
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Yeah.
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Um, and I have early just opinion, I have feelings about what apples to use for pie.
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And I think that's part of it.
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We've actually talked about this before.
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And just to give a real brief primer to people, we I think we both agree that a good apple that's dependable, that is widely available, is a Bray burn.
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I like a Bray Burn.
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I think it's to me that's like a classic.
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Like, yeah, if you need, if you don't know what to pick and you need a good apple, a Bray Burn is a safe bet.
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I want to back up for one second, though, because I think about like apples on a spectrum, right?
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And I think that people get hung up on the particular variety when really you want to think more about like the category that it's filling.
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Like I would consider like a granny smith to be like very firm tart.
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Like, so that's on like one end of the spectrum.
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And then on the other end of the spectrum, I like take a Macintosh, which I think of as like very sweet and pretty soft.
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And so, you know, you want to like match your apple.
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I mean, we don't have to get crazy about it, but it's like you want to sort of match your apple to your bake.
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And then like within firm tart, there's lots of varieties that fall in that.
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Like firm sweet, soft and tart, soft and tart, soft and sweet.
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And so I think I'm soft and tart.
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You're soft and tart.
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I think that's my personality.
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Interesting.
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Yeah.
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Okay, I think that could be right.
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I'm more like I think I might just be firm and tart.
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I'm the granny smith.
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Oh, no wonder I had such a strong reaction.
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But I think like if you're say baking a pie, I would not want to use a sweet, soft apple because what's gonna happen?
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Welcome to Applesauce Town.
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I mean, apples, there is a spectrum of flavor, right?
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So that I think like it's nice to use a mix because you get some of the best qualities, especially in a pie.
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You know, you want to use a firmer, tartar apple for some structure so it doesn't turn to mush, along with a sweeter variety.
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I love a Cortland, that's one of my favorite apples.
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I think a Brayburn is really nice.
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For baking anything.
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For baking anything.
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Okay.
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So do you have a recommendation for like apple pie?
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I would use a mix.
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I would not include Macintosh in that mix.
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Okay.
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But I would use a Cortland, I would use a Bray Burn.
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I might use a Golden Delicious in a fractional amount.
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But I think like by mixing it, you it's sort of like a custom blend of coffee, right?
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Like you're getting some of the better elements of each.
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Right.
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You have to familiarize yourself with the apples, which, yeah, okay, you said it's a challenge.
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It's also the opportunity.
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It's the great thing.
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It's a great thing about right now.
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I mean, when I go to the farmer's market during this time, as you will not surprise you, I go a little crazy.
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Yeah.
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And I throw in two of each apple.
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Honestly, I don't remember what they are when I get them home, but it's the variety of the apples, you know, and how different they are and the different flavors and the different acidity levels that makes it fun to eat.
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And now I think more farmers are trying, like, you know, they're experimenting with different, you know, different varieties or they're resurrecting older trees.
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So there's like a bigger palette to paint from.
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Yes, right.
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Yeah.
00:12:20.629 --> 00:12:22.950
What do you think about the cosmic crisp apple?
00:12:23.269 --> 00:12:24.870
Oh, yeah, new on the scene.
00:12:25.110 --> 00:12:30.710
I mean, it's it's interesting to think about like a a new fruit being invented.
00:12:31.029 --> 00:12:31.750
But it was.
00:12:31.909 --> 00:12:35.669
Like it was it's the first apple ever bred in Washington State.
00:12:35.990 --> 00:12:45.350
And you know, Washington, big apple producing state, definitely in the top 10, may s maybe surpasses probably surpasses everything, honestly, just by sheer volume.
00:12:45.509 --> 00:12:46.149
I kind of liked it.
00:12:46.230 --> 00:12:47.350
It was like a sneaker drop.
00:12:47.429 --> 00:12:51.909
Like they released the cosmic crisp December, I think December of 2019.
00:12:52.149 --> 00:12:54.789
And it's made its way now, you know, to the East Coast too.
00:12:55.029 --> 00:12:58.309
I don't know that growers are growing it, but West Coast apples are making it to the East Coast.
00:12:58.470 --> 00:13:01.189
You know, even my mother-in-law was like, I'm really into this new apple.
00:13:01.269 --> 00:13:02.870
Have you tried the Cosmic Crisp?
00:13:03.110 --> 00:13:07.990
And I will say it is very true to the name, very crisp.
00:13:08.389 --> 00:13:09.269
Very crisp apple.
00:13:09.590 --> 00:13:11.029
It's a white-fleshed apple, right?
00:13:11.429 --> 00:13:13.269
A white flesh apple, very juicy.
00:13:13.830 --> 00:13:16.710
And it's sort of got a sweet tart balance.
00:13:16.950 --> 00:13:28.470
I would say, like, it may not be the most dynamically flavored apple out there, but I think for like an apple that you can find pretty broadly, like that's a good choice.
00:13:28.549 --> 00:13:28.710
Yeah.
00:13:28.870 --> 00:13:30.389
I mean, and I like a pink lady.
00:13:30.470 --> 00:13:36.070
I know you can also find those year-round, but I think those are nice, like again, on the firmer tart spectrum, but I think more interesting.
00:13:36.230 --> 00:13:41.990
I think both a cosmic crisp and a pink lady are more interesting than a granny smith and a red delicious, certainly.
00:13:42.230 --> 00:13:42.389
No.
00:13:42.710 --> 00:13:54.230
Anything that's local and in season, even a red delicious, is gonna be far superior than the apples you get in January out of season in your grocery store.
00:13:54.629 --> 00:13:58.149
Because they're just sitting in the storage facility somewhere and then being brought out.
00:13:58.309 --> 00:13:59.350
And they're often waxed.
00:13:59.429 --> 00:14:03.509
And so, you know, they're like they're suffering a lot of indignities before they make it to the market.
00:14:03.750 --> 00:14:04.629
Oh, you don't gotta tell me.
00:14:04.710 --> 00:14:07.350
I I had to wax my face before we did this podcast.
00:14:07.509 --> 00:14:11.029
It and I it is it is dehumanizing.
00:14:11.429 --> 00:14:11.750
Yeah.
00:14:11.990 --> 00:14:18.149
We'll put a link in the show notes to a previous episode so you can listen to us participate about apples even more.
00:14:18.389 --> 00:14:26.230
For now, I'm gonna stop us because while I'm sure that you were correct in everything you say, um, I did want to bring in a different expert.
00:14:26.309 --> 00:14:29.269
Uh, and that's Erin McDowell, big friend of the uh brand.
00:14:29.350 --> 00:14:32.789
Yes, an absolute pie queen, one of the most talented bakers in the United States.
00:14:32.870 --> 00:14:37.350
She's the author of four cookbooks, including her new one, Bake Anything, which just came out last month.
00:14:37.509 --> 00:14:41.990
Erin's also on YouTube, and she's also instructor of some of our on-demand uh classes.
00:14:42.149 --> 00:14:44.549
And she teaches in person at the Vermont School a lot.
00:14:44.629 --> 00:14:46.149
So that's a hot ticket to get.
00:14:46.230 --> 00:14:51.590
So I have been fully converted now to Erin McDowell's pie crust method.
00:14:51.830 --> 00:14:52.470
It's a great one.
00:14:52.629 --> 00:14:52.789
Yeah.
00:14:52.870 --> 00:14:53.029
Yeah.
00:14:53.189 --> 00:14:58.149
I mean, I thought that I was an old dog that could be taught no new tricks, but I've been converted.
00:14:58.389 --> 00:14:59.830
So I'm excited to hear what she has to say.
00:14:59.909 --> 00:15:01.189
I know she's not a New Englander.
00:15:01.269 --> 00:15:04.070
I will forgive her that because I think she's got a lot of wisdom to impart.
00:15:04.309 --> 00:15:05.429
She's a Midwesterner.
00:15:05.590 --> 00:15:05.830
Yeah.
00:15:05.990 --> 00:15:06.309
Yeah.
00:15:06.789 --> 00:15:08.230
Okay, let's hear it.
00:15:09.029 --> 00:15:12.710
Erin Jean McDowell, friend of King Arthur, legendary baker.
00:15:12.789 --> 00:15:14.230
Thank you so much for coming on the show.
00:15:14.470 --> 00:15:16.070
Thank you so much for having me.
00:15:16.389 --> 00:15:22.950
We're here to talk about apples, and I'm gonna give you a hard one first, although I think I know the answer to this one.
00:15:23.110 --> 00:15:28.389
We've been debating, Jessica and I, like what's better, apple cake or apple pie.
00:15:28.710 --> 00:15:32.309
Just so you know, I started by saying, I don't think we need to debate these.
00:15:32.549 --> 00:15:33.830
I think they're both great.
00:15:33.909 --> 00:15:35.269
And then I landed somewhere.
00:15:35.429 --> 00:15:37.269
I chose one pretty easily.
00:15:37.509 --> 00:15:38.710
Do you have an opinion here?
00:15:38.870 --> 00:15:39.830
You have a preference?
00:15:40.309 --> 00:15:45.269
I mean, who would I even be if I did not say apple pie trumps apple cake?
00:15:45.429 --> 00:15:50.629
I would not, I would not be the sparkling baker chatting to you over the internet.
00:15:51.350 --> 00:15:52.309
I know, I know.
00:15:52.549 --> 00:15:56.230
But I do love an apple cake, and it's, you know, it is hard.
00:15:56.309 --> 00:16:05.350
It's it's almost apples and oranges only because one has such varying textures and one, I mean, I guess they both have a little bit of variance.
00:16:05.509 --> 00:16:07.509
I love what apples can do for a cake.
00:16:07.669 --> 00:16:10.070
I love the natural sweetness and the moistness.
00:16:10.230 --> 00:16:11.029
I love all of that.
00:16:11.189 --> 00:16:13.269
It's it should not be discounted.
00:16:13.509 --> 00:16:16.870
But a good apple pie, what is better than that?
00:16:17.029 --> 00:16:17.909
Absolutely nothing.
00:16:18.309 --> 00:16:19.909
Shocking response from you, Aaron.
00:16:20.230 --> 00:16:22.470
Shocking response from the author of the Book of Pie.
00:16:22.629 --> 00:16:24.470
Um so let's talk about pie.
00:16:24.629 --> 00:16:26.309
I'm sure you've put a lot of thought into this.
00:16:26.470 --> 00:16:28.789
What are your go-to apples for pie?
00:16:29.429 --> 00:16:33.909
Yes, I would say that I kind of have two primary go-tos.
00:16:34.549 --> 00:16:44.309
For many years, especially earlier in my career, I was all about the honey crisp, which, of course, when I started writing about the honey crisp, it was not nearly as popular of an apple as it is now.
00:16:44.470 --> 00:16:47.590
And now it's a very popular, very readily available apple.
00:16:47.830 --> 00:16:58.230
And along that same line, I really love for apple pie the cosmic crisp, which is a blend of honey crisp and another apple called Enterprise.
00:16:58.389 --> 00:17:01.269
It's a very, very juicy apple.
00:17:01.509 --> 00:17:07.269
So you do have to kind of know how to handle it, but it just packs so much flavor.
00:17:07.350 --> 00:17:17.190
And especially for pie, it retains the texture and kind of miraculously, they don't really turn brown, which is just an interesting, they don't really oxidize.
00:17:17.350 --> 00:17:19.110
I like the amount of apple flavor.
00:17:19.190 --> 00:17:34.070
I like how it retains its texture, but then also you really get enough juice out of them to sort of make like a saucy sort of mixture around the apples, which for me, that is the I can't call it a good apple pie unless it has a few different things.
00:17:34.549 --> 00:17:38.550
It has to retain a slice, it has to hold a slice shape.
00:17:38.630 --> 00:17:41.990
But retaining a slice doesn't mean it shouldn't be juicy at all.
00:17:42.150 --> 00:17:45.910
There should maybe be some juices like settling out.
00:17:46.070 --> 00:17:53.350
That's that, you know, but I don't necessarily, when you cut into the pie and it just all the filling falls out, to me, that's not a pie.
00:17:53.590 --> 00:17:59.350
That's more of a pandy situation where it's kind of soupier and cobbler-like.
00:17:59.430 --> 00:18:02.390
So yeah, those, those are, that's what I'm looking for in a good apple pie.
00:18:02.870 --> 00:18:09.670
You're known for uh making pies uh that can pass the sturdy piece.
00:18:10.550 --> 00:18:11.830
Sturdy pie challenge, right?
00:18:11.910 --> 00:18:17.670
People who are watching the podcast saw me sort of emulate this this move, but we can lift the whole pie out of the tin.
00:18:17.990 --> 00:18:18.710
So impressive.
00:18:18.870 --> 00:18:19.510
I love that.
00:18:19.670 --> 00:18:23.670
And whenever I've been able to achieve that, I've thought of you and just been so proud of myself.
00:18:23.910 --> 00:18:29.590
And there are a number of ways to get there uh a lot of things to be cognizant about.
00:18:29.750 --> 00:18:34.950
But you know, jiciness and and you know, water content in the filling is certainly one of them.
00:18:35.110 --> 00:18:42.150
So, how do you balance getting that sort of juiciness that you want while making sure you're not gonna get a soggy bottom?
00:18:42.470 --> 00:18:43.270
Yeah, absolutely.
00:18:43.430 --> 00:18:47.590
No one wants a soggy bottom, especially when you're working so hard to make pies.
00:18:47.670 --> 00:18:49.270
I always say good pies take patience.
00:18:49.350 --> 00:18:54.310
And what's so frustrating is sometimes you don't realize that you've kind of made a mistake till the very end of the process.
00:18:54.550 --> 00:18:56.550
And so you're diving in, you know.
00:18:56.870 --> 00:19:05.830
So I think that pre-cooking apple fillings and fruit fillings in general is sort of my number one key to making sure that the pie sets.
00:19:05.990 --> 00:19:07.750
And there's a bunch of different reasons for this.
00:19:07.910 --> 00:19:12.550
For one, we can't necessarily predict how juicy any given fruit is.
00:19:12.630 --> 00:19:21.590
So even if you're using the same apple, but maybe you make one in September, maybe you make one in October, maybe you make one in November, each time they are gonna be a little bit different.
00:19:21.670 --> 00:19:26.230
And that is just the nature and the madness that is fruit pie baking.
00:19:26.310 --> 00:19:27.350
It's a little tricky.
00:19:27.590 --> 00:19:32.550
But the more we control it at every stage, the better the end result is gonna be.
00:19:32.790 --> 00:19:38.710
So pre-cooking the filling allows you, if you're dealing with not very juicy apples, you may not have to cook it as long.
00:19:38.870 --> 00:19:44.390
If they're really juicy, you may have to cook it longer, but the process is the same.
00:19:44.550 --> 00:19:53.910
And I think that there's something comforting in that, that we're following the same recipe, the same guidance, and just we're noticing, wow, there's a lot more juice in this than the last time I made it.
00:19:53.990 --> 00:19:56.630
I need to add another minute or two here on the stovetop.
00:19:57.030 --> 00:20:08.070
And it does make the process a little longer because we not only have to cook the filling, we also have to cool it completely before we can put it into our crust, lest we melt our delicious buttery pastry layers.
00:20:08.310 --> 00:20:10.390
So I think that that is the number one thing.
00:20:10.550 --> 00:20:23.430
The other thing is I always encourage beginner pie bakers to start with single crust pies, double crust pies, which we think of are they're so iconic, and that's you know, it's literally the pie emoji is a double crust pie.
00:20:23.910 --> 00:20:29.990
But the as soon as we get into double crust, we are at a different level of advanced.
00:20:30.310 --> 00:20:38.950
And so I always say when you're practicing pies, practice with single crust because you're gonna get a nice result uh more reliably.
00:20:39.030 --> 00:20:44.150
And that'll give you that confidence you need to go into double crust land, as it were.
00:20:44.310 --> 00:20:51.030
And when you're making a single crust pie, you've got to par bake or blind bake, but we're making an apple pie.
00:20:51.110 --> 00:20:52.150
So it would be par baking.
00:20:52.230 --> 00:20:54.310
You got to give that crust a little bit of a head start.
00:20:54.390 --> 00:20:57.430
You've got to set the structure before you put the filling in.
00:20:57.670 --> 00:21:01.350
And those results, they turn out really beautifully every single time.
00:21:01.510 --> 00:21:07.830
So single crust apple pie is your dipping your toe into the water of no soggy bottomness.
00:21:08.950 --> 00:21:09.830
That's a great tip.
00:21:09.990 --> 00:21:18.870
And I'm glad you're bringing up single crust apple pie because, of course, there are lots of apple pies and lots of variations from single crust to Dutch apple pie, which is, you know, it's got crumble on it.
00:21:18.950 --> 00:21:23.670
Um, and one of my favorite apple pies, maybe it was maybe it's technically a tart.
00:21:23.910 --> 00:21:27.830
I don't even know, but um, has got some cream in the filling.
00:21:28.070 --> 00:21:30.710
I believe that's a that's a that's a Dory Greenspan recipe.
00:21:30.870 --> 00:21:31.750
I guess it's a French.
00:21:32.230 --> 00:21:32.950
Oh, I know that one.
00:21:33.030 --> 00:21:33.670
That is so good.
00:21:33.830 --> 00:21:34.950
That is a great recipe.
00:21:35.110 --> 00:21:35.350
Yeah.
00:21:35.510 --> 00:21:38.470
What are your top three apple pies that you like to make?
00:21:38.630 --> 00:21:40.950
I mean, I'm assuming a double crust is one of them.
00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:42.870
I do love a double crust apple pie, though.
00:21:42.950 --> 00:21:54.070
What I will say is that these past few years at Thanksgiving, I have noticed that my family, I typically make a double crust apple pie and a crumb topped or Dutch apple pie, which is single crust.
00:21:54.230 --> 00:21:56.550
And that one always gets finished first.
00:21:56.710 --> 00:22:02.470
I find that a Dutch apple pie, at least among the places I'm taking pies, it tends to be more popular.
00:22:02.630 --> 00:22:03.830
I think that's really interesting.
00:22:04.070 --> 00:22:05.590
It's my favorite, I'll tell you.
00:22:05.830 --> 00:22:06.870
Yeah, I love it too.
00:22:06.950 --> 00:22:17.910
The cool thing is the crumb topping, especially depending on what style you use, it absorbs extra moisture in a way that if a crust absorbs that extra moisture, it's soggy.
00:22:17.990 --> 00:22:23.830
But if the crumbs absorb it, it's actually like jammy and delicious and yeah, so good.
00:22:24.150 --> 00:22:39.910
I really am obsessed with this one very unusual apple pie from my book, The Book on Pie, that is a Two layered pie, and the bottom layer is it's got apple pie, kind of a classic apple pie filling, and then also a buttercotch pudding layer.
00:22:40.390 --> 00:22:44.390
And again, it's sort of the best of a fruit pie and a cream pie.
00:22:44.470 --> 00:22:53.110
It I find that a lot of kids really like it, even if they may not like a classic apple pie, sort of like the apple pie with the ice cream already on it.
00:22:53.350 --> 00:22:54.550
It's really nice.
00:22:54.630 --> 00:23:00.470
And the flavor of butterscotch and apple are really so beautiful and festive together.
00:23:00.710 --> 00:23:08.790
And as much as I want to say a double crust as the third one, I think I might even say more like a galette because I feel like I might be making those more often.
00:23:09.030 --> 00:23:11.670
I love that thinner amount of filling.
00:23:11.750 --> 00:23:17.110
As a crust person, I'm I love a galette because it's like as much crust as filling in the best possible way.
00:23:17.190 --> 00:23:20.710
And with apples, it's just so easy because again, no pre-cooking involved.
00:23:20.790 --> 00:23:22.870
It's like the simpler apple pie.
00:23:22.950 --> 00:23:27.350
So when I want to get from zero to pie as quickly as possible, it's gonna be a galette.
00:23:28.790 --> 00:23:29.350
I love that.
00:23:29.510 --> 00:23:31.910
Getting me from zero to pie as quick as possible.
00:23:32.070 --> 00:23:32.790
Life goals.
00:23:32.870 --> 00:23:38.070
So let's move on from pie because I don't want anybody to have the impression that all you do is pie.
00:23:38.150 --> 00:23:41.030
You do so many things, and your new book is bake anything.
00:23:41.190 --> 00:23:44.390
So, really, throwing down the gauntlet, like you can bake anything with Aaron T.
00:23:44.470 --> 00:23:44.950
McDowell.
00:23:45.190 --> 00:23:52.630
We were talking a little bit before we pressed record, and you were talking about how apples could really come into play in so many chapters in this book.
00:23:52.870 --> 00:24:00.870
So let's play a game because right now I'm looking at the contents of your new book, and I'm gonna see where I might see an opportunity for apples.
00:24:00.950 --> 00:24:08.790
And one place that I immediately see uh the last chapter in the book is yeasted puff pastry, and my mind immediately goes to like an apple turnover.
00:24:08.870 --> 00:24:10.870
Could I do something like that, like make an apple filling?
00:24:11.190 --> 00:24:12.550
Absolutely, or apple butter.
00:24:12.710 --> 00:24:17.350
I love apple butter as a filling for pies or turnovers, pastries in general.
00:24:17.590 --> 00:24:28.950
There's a really good laminated biscuit pastry that I make that has a very yeasted puff kind of vibe, but with no yeast, it's just as I'm making a biscuit dough with a little bit of extra butter.
00:24:29.030 --> 00:24:29.830
How can that be bad?
00:24:29.910 --> 00:24:33.750
And there I make it with sort of like a cream cheese filling and a crumb topping.
00:24:33.990 --> 00:24:38.070
Imagine apple butter in with that, or in place of the cream cheese topping.
00:24:38.150 --> 00:24:39.670
I think that would be so good.
00:24:39.830 --> 00:24:45.830
In the brioche section, there's a monkey bread, a kind of a caramelized praline monkey bread.
00:24:45.990 --> 00:24:49.350
Chopping up some apples and putting it in that would be incredible.
00:24:49.590 --> 00:24:51.910
I also just love yeasted puff.
00:24:51.990 --> 00:25:02.630
And I will not follow what everybody else says that it's not worth it to make at home, because I think anything that is delicious eaten fresh from the oven is a worthwhile thing to make from home.
00:25:02.790 --> 00:25:17.110
Because you can go to a great bakery that makes croissants Danish, absolutely, and you should, but you're rarely going to get that thing warm unless you show up at the crack of dawn or you ask them to warm it falsely in a toaster oven.
00:25:18.230 --> 00:25:28.070
And I just think that there's something so magical about whether it's a perfect croissant or it's a little subpar, eating it warm while it's steaming and buttery from the oven.
00:25:28.230 --> 00:25:32.950
That is an experience that bakers not only should have, but they deserve to have.
00:25:33.270 --> 00:25:40.550
Yeah, basically I'm looking at the table contents and I can see apples being incorporated to any chapter except except maybe chocolate cake.
00:25:41.190 --> 00:25:42.390
No, I'm with you.
00:25:42.710 --> 00:25:46.710
Thank you, Aaron, for talking to us so enthusiastically about apples.
00:25:46.870 --> 00:25:49.590
Um, your love for apples is really inspiring, actually.
00:25:49.670 --> 00:25:49.990
You know.
00:25:50.310 --> 00:25:51.910
Thank you so much for having me.
00:25:52.070 --> 00:25:55.830
And there's no better time of year to bake than apple season.
00:25:55.910 --> 00:25:58.470
So thank you to all my friends at King Arthur.
00:25:59.990 --> 00:26:02.310
This episode is brought to you by Cabot Creamery.
00:26:02.470 --> 00:26:08.550
Cabot Creamery is a farmer-owned cooperative dedicated to making delicious, high-quality cheese and dairy products.
00:26:08.790 --> 00:26:13.270
100% of profits go back to the farm families that own Cabot Creamery.
00:26:13.430 --> 00:26:17.350
And Cabot Creamery is the butter choice of the King Arthur Test Kitchen.
00:26:17.510 --> 00:26:19.030
Have extra apples from your pie?
00:26:19.190 --> 00:26:23.270
Cabot's bold and creamy cheeses pair perfectly with sweet and juicy apples.
00:26:23.510 --> 00:26:31.510
Enjoy the pairing as a snack, add them to your next charcuterie board, or dip the apples into gooey melty cheese during a fondue night.
00:26:31.750 --> 00:26:38.870
Or indulge in the very Vermont tradition of a slice of apple pie served with a slice of cheddar cheese alongside.
00:26:39.110 --> 00:26:49.270
Every ingredient in your favorite recipe is important, but fresh creamery butter, like Cabot's unsalted and salted butter, is the key to the best pastries, sauces, frostings, and flaky pie crusts.
00:26:49.350 --> 00:26:58.310
You can visit Cabot's website, cabotcreamery.com, for recipes, pairing suggestions, and a curated selection of gift boxes for every occasion.
00:26:58.470 --> 00:27:00.790
That's CabotCreamery.com.
00:27:01.750 --> 00:27:04.150
This episode is brought to you by Supernatural.
00:27:04.390 --> 00:27:15.270
Supernatural makes sprinkles, food colors, and flavors that are completely colored by plants, fully traceable, and totally free from anything artificial or synthetic.
00:27:15.670 --> 00:27:17.030
And it's just a proven fact.
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It is just a proven fact that sprinkles make everything more fun.
00:27:21.990 --> 00:27:28.310
So you can add them to your pancake batter, you can sprinkle them on your ice cream, and of course, you can use them to top a frosted cake.
00:27:28.630 --> 00:27:29.910
Yeah, or a brownie.
00:27:30.470 --> 00:27:31.030
Or a brownie.
00:27:31.510 --> 00:27:33.990
There's a very popular brownie out there that has sprinkles on it.
00:27:34.230 --> 00:27:36.710
I don't mess with that, but I will mess with this.
00:27:37.750 --> 00:27:43.270
Supernatural Sprinkles, food colors, flavors, and more at KingArthurbaking.com.
00:27:43.350 --> 00:27:47.270
And the full line is available at supernaturalkitchen.com.
00:27:49.430 --> 00:27:52.390
It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers.
00:27:52.470 --> 00:27:54.390
For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you.
00:27:54.550 --> 00:28:02.630
If you have a baking question for us, head to KingArthurbaking.com forward slash podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show.
00:28:02.790 --> 00:28:06.310
That's kingarthurbaking.com forward slash podcast.
00:28:06.550 --> 00:28:15.030
And of course, if you have a baking question that absolutely cannot wait, you can always reach out to the Bakers Hotline via phone, email, or online chat.
00:28:15.110 --> 00:28:21.830
Just go to kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline or call us 855-371-2253.
00:28:22.070 --> 00:28:25.110
That's 2253 as in B-A-K-E Bake.
00:28:25.430 --> 00:28:28.070
Let's hear this week's questions all about apples.
00:28:28.390 --> 00:28:31.510
We use Granny Smith apples for our pie.
00:28:31.990 --> 00:28:37.830
How do we avoid the apples baking down and the crust leaving the dough?
00:28:38.870 --> 00:28:41.190
Oh my god, this is so triggering for you, Jessica.
00:28:41.270 --> 00:28:43.830
And we've already established Granny Smith.
00:28:44.070 --> 00:28:46.870
I mean, the question is not what apples should I be using for my pie.
00:28:47.190 --> 00:28:55.510
All I will say, in brief, is that if you're using Granny Smith, consider, you know, mixing in a different variety.
00:28:55.670 --> 00:28:57.190
I know why you like Granny Smith.
00:28:57.270 --> 00:28:59.110
They don't turn to mush, which is a pro.
00:28:59.270 --> 00:28:59.750
They're tart.
00:28:59.990 --> 00:29:03.990
You know, they're not just, but I think there's more interesting firm tart apples out there.
00:29:04.070 --> 00:29:05.910
So I would encourage you to try.
00:29:06.070 --> 00:29:10.070
You could still keep some granny Smith in the mix, but maybe work in some other varieties.
00:29:10.150 --> 00:29:11.750
But that's not the question I'm being asked.
00:29:11.910 --> 00:29:15.030
And I do think this is a common problem.
00:29:15.190 --> 00:29:20.790
You've got like a nice mount of apples, put on that top crust, it feels like everything's good.
00:29:20.870 --> 00:29:28.790
And then inevitably, as your apples cook, they release moisture, they shrink, and then you have that gap.
00:29:29.590 --> 00:29:31.110
I mean, is it a flaw?
00:29:31.350 --> 00:29:34.230
I can see why people would consider it like to be a flaw.
00:29:34.550 --> 00:29:34.710
Right.
00:29:34.790 --> 00:29:35.270
I understand.
00:29:35.430 --> 00:29:39.110
You understand why people cut through and they're like, ugh, there's all this space.
00:29:39.510 --> 00:29:39.750
Gapping.
00:29:39.990 --> 00:29:42.310
I didn't make an I didn't want to make an air pie.
00:29:42.390 --> 00:29:42.870
Yeah, exactly.
00:29:43.030 --> 00:29:43.910
I wanted an apple pie.
00:29:44.070 --> 00:29:49.110
And I also think like there's something about like a dense wedge of pie where it's like apples crust to crust that's very satisfying.
00:29:49.190 --> 00:29:49.430
Yep.
00:29:49.590 --> 00:29:50.870
Both to eat and to look at.
00:29:51.430 --> 00:29:52.710
So a few things to do.
00:29:52.950 --> 00:29:57.270
One is you can just really pack your apples in, your raw apples.
00:29:57.350 --> 00:30:09.430
Like if you're committed to using raw apples in your pie filling, you just like really pack them in, press down, put more apples than you think you need, really mound them up, but like also give it some compression so that you've like eliminated the air between it.
00:30:09.670 --> 00:30:11.510
It's kind of like Tetris almost.
00:30:11.670 --> 00:30:19.270
Like you really have to like when you see people, the pros do this, they're really finding every space and jamming it in.
00:30:19.510 --> 00:30:26.950
But I honestly think there's still a challenge, which is that those apples are gonna lose water weight and therefore volume.
00:30:27.110 --> 00:30:27.270
Yeah.
00:30:27.670 --> 00:30:32.630
So if it really bothers you, I think the other approach is to pre-cook the apples.
00:30:32.790 --> 00:30:41.830
So you take your sliced apples, the sugar, whatever spices you're using in a saucepan on the stove, and you cook them just for 10 to 15 minutes until they release some of that water.
00:30:41.910 --> 00:30:45.110
And they're not gonna be mush, especially if you're starting with a tart apple.
00:30:45.270 --> 00:30:51.510
But they'll be, you know, like they will have lost some of their crispness, which is okay, but they will have also lost some of their water.
00:30:51.750 --> 00:30:53.350
And then you let that mixture cool.
00:30:53.510 --> 00:30:59.590
I would not put like your hot apple mixture into your cold crust because you're gonna get gummy town USA.
00:31:00.390 --> 00:31:02.710
But then you've eliminated the moisture at the outset.
00:31:02.950 --> 00:31:05.990
And you can pack even more apples in because they've got even more apples in.
00:31:06.070 --> 00:31:09.430
And we have recipes on the site, we'll link them in the show notes that use this approach.
00:31:09.510 --> 00:31:11.430
And I think it's a good approach.
00:31:11.590 --> 00:31:15.990
This is also, I mean, it sounds like this caller is committed to a double crusted pie.
00:31:16.470 --> 00:31:18.630
But shall we consider the Dutch apple pie?
00:31:19.030 --> 00:31:19.510
Oh, yeah.
00:31:19.830 --> 00:31:20.150
We shall.
00:31:20.470 --> 00:31:20.870
We shall.
00:31:21.110 --> 00:31:24.710
I mean, to me, I'm just I think every pie is better when it's a crumb top.
00:31:24.790 --> 00:31:26.070
So oh, every pie is there.
00:31:26.230 --> 00:31:27.110
Give me Dutch every pie.
00:31:27.350 --> 00:31:28.310
Give me the Dutch pies.
00:31:28.390 --> 00:31:29.110
Give me the Dutch pie.
00:31:29.270 --> 00:31:29.910
Give me the Dutch.
00:31:30.070 --> 00:31:30.870
Take me to Amsterdam.
00:31:31.110 --> 00:31:31.270
Yeah.
00:31:31.350 --> 00:31:33.670
I mean, I think it's nice, like a layer of strusel on top.
00:31:33.750 --> 00:31:39.590
And also, not only does that add sweetness and texture, but it also gives you sort of like an open surface.
00:31:39.830 --> 00:31:42.470
So more of the liquid is evaporating from the pie.
00:31:42.710 --> 00:31:48.150
Also, this wasn't asked, but I just feel like if I don't say this 75 times in the episode, people aren't going to retain it.
00:31:48.310 --> 00:31:51.990
Like, please, people, you have to cook your pie all the way through.
00:31:52.150 --> 00:31:57.990
In our Thanksgiving pie episode, we talk a lot about tactical tips like what pans we use, using a baking steel or stone.
00:31:58.230 --> 00:31:59.190
These are all important.
00:31:59.270 --> 00:32:01.990
And I would encourage pie aficionados to go back and listen to that.
00:32:02.150 --> 00:32:09.510
But if there's one takeaway here from this episode, one thing you retain fully baked, that can take more than an hour.
00:32:10.230 --> 00:32:20.630
And I start mine high, like 450, 20 minutes, then turn it down to 375, and like really let it go till the juices are thick and bubbling in the middle, like or through the vent.
00:32:20.790 --> 00:32:33.830
Also, this isn't apropos of this question, like venting, you know, if you do a double crusted pie, venting it with some like not just some like some puny little like paring knife tip, but like true vents, which allow the steam to escape.
00:32:33.990 --> 00:32:37.750
Also gives you like a place to look for the bubbling juices to see if it's fully thickened.
00:32:37.910 --> 00:32:38.070
Yeah.
00:32:38.310 --> 00:32:40.070
So I think those would all help.
00:32:40.470 --> 00:32:40.790
Yeah.
00:32:41.110 --> 00:32:43.590
In that spirit, let's go to the next question.
00:32:44.150 --> 00:32:45.270
Hi, King Arthur.
00:32:45.430 --> 00:32:49.270
I see a lot of King Arthur recipes that call for boiled cider.
00:32:49.510 --> 00:32:50.710
What is that exactly?
00:32:50.870 --> 00:32:53.270
And if I can't find it, can I leave it out?
00:32:53.430 --> 00:32:55.030
Or is there a good substitute?
00:32:55.270 --> 00:32:55.670
Thank you.
00:32:55.910 --> 00:32:56.630
Well, here we are.
00:32:56.870 --> 00:32:59.350
Back talking about my favorite ingredient.
00:32:59.510 --> 00:33:00.550
The sponsor of the show.
00:33:00.710 --> 00:33:00.950
Yeah.
00:33:01.190 --> 00:33:01.830
Boiled cider.
00:33:02.070 --> 00:33:03.030
The MVP of the show.
00:33:03.430 --> 00:33:04.870
It's exactly what it sounds like.
00:33:04.950 --> 00:33:12.150
It's cider that's been reduced uh to a very concentrated syrup that has a very strong, sweet tart flavor.
00:33:12.310 --> 00:33:15.110
What did I say earlier that I was I was soft and tart?
00:33:15.510 --> 00:33:15.830
Yeah.
00:33:15.990 --> 00:33:16.230
Yeah.
00:33:16.390 --> 00:33:16.630
Yeah.
00:33:16.950 --> 00:33:18.870
Sort of like the flavor of that's sort of like the flavors.
00:33:19.110 --> 00:33:21.270
It's soft, soft and tart flavor.
00:33:21.430 --> 00:33:23.670
It's a great way to get apple flavor into any baked goods.
00:33:23.910 --> 00:33:24.390
What's the question?
00:33:24.470 --> 00:33:25.510
Is there a good substitute?
00:33:25.750 --> 00:33:28.710
So I'm gonna say I don't know one, honestly.
00:33:28.790 --> 00:33:31.990
I mean, you may be like me and think, you know what?
00:33:32.230 --> 00:33:36.390
I don't need to buy boiled apple cider from KingArthurbaking.com.
00:33:36.710 --> 00:33:38.790
I can just boil my own apple cider.
00:33:38.870 --> 00:33:40.070
How did the cavemen do it?
00:33:40.150 --> 00:33:42.150
They didn't have KingArthurbaking.com.
00:33:42.230 --> 00:33:43.990
They were boiling that stuff on a hot stone.
00:33:44.150 --> 00:33:44.870
I have done that.
00:33:44.950 --> 00:33:45.190
Yeah.
00:33:45.430 --> 00:33:52.630
And it is a fool's errand uh because it's very difficult to know when to stop and what the consistency should be.
00:33:52.950 --> 00:34:01.750
I ended up basically making an apple cider taffy, like a very, very, very thick caramel dentist's nightmare, you know.
00:34:01.910 --> 00:34:02.390
Oh yeah.
00:34:02.630 --> 00:34:08.230
Uh and it was good, but like look, listen, it's something basically that we should let the pros handle.
00:34:08.389 --> 00:34:08.550
Yeah.
00:34:08.710 --> 00:34:09.750
Um so I don't know.
00:34:09.909 --> 00:34:13.989
I guess one of the things I think about one of the benefits beyond the apple flavor is the acidity.
00:34:14.070 --> 00:34:19.590
So if you are really into pinch and you and you have to move forward, maybe like a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar.
00:34:19.829 --> 00:34:20.230
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:20.389 --> 00:34:20.550
You know?
00:34:20.789 --> 00:34:23.909
That's a secret trick to add a little apple cider vinegar to your apple bakes.
00:34:24.150 --> 00:34:25.590
I think it's it adds that tartness.
00:34:25.750 --> 00:34:28.869
It does have, especially, you know, the ones that aren't processed to death.
00:34:28.949 --> 00:34:31.750
Like the, you know, they have they retain some apple flavor.
00:34:31.909 --> 00:34:32.389
Yeah, for sure.
00:34:32.630 --> 00:34:34.949
But I do think, you know, a boiled cider is singular.
00:34:35.030 --> 00:34:40.869
And it makes me think of like boiled cider is to apple juice as like tomato paste is to canned apples.
00:34:41.190 --> 00:34:41.750
Canned tomatoes.
00:34:41.829 --> 00:34:42.390
Canned tomatoes.
00:34:42.550 --> 00:34:42.630
Yes.
00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:43.510
Cheese Louise.
00:34:43.829 --> 00:34:43.910
Yeah.
00:34:44.230 --> 00:34:44.789
Cheese Louise.
00:34:45.030 --> 00:34:45.430
Cheese Louise.
00:34:46.070 --> 00:34:46.550
Get it together.
00:34:46.869 --> 00:34:47.269
Come on.
00:34:47.590 --> 00:34:50.309
You can see I didn't do so well in that part of the SATs.
00:34:51.670 --> 00:34:53.110
But I think, yeah, it's hard to replicate.
00:34:53.750 --> 00:34:54.309
Yeah, look at me now.
00:34:54.390 --> 00:34:55.110
It's hard to replicate that.
00:34:55.510 --> 00:34:56.390
Posting a baking podcast.
00:34:56.789 --> 00:34:58.550
Very concentrated apple flavor.
00:34:58.789 --> 00:35:04.390
And also, you know, we would be remiss if we didn't, I know it's a baking podcast, but there are also savory applications for it.
00:35:04.470 --> 00:35:06.630
Like that drizzled over roast pork.
00:35:06.789 --> 00:35:10.470
You do like apples and onions in the dish, like a pork roast with that drizzled over the top.
00:35:10.630 --> 00:35:11.030
Oh, yeah.
00:35:11.190 --> 00:35:11.590
Very nice.
00:35:12.309 --> 00:35:13.349
So duck could be good on duck.
00:35:13.430 --> 00:35:14.550
Maybe it's like some roasted squash.
00:35:14.710 --> 00:35:15.430
Yeah, it'd be delicious.
00:35:15.590 --> 00:35:16.789
Like a glazed for roasted squash.
00:35:16.869 --> 00:35:18.869
So it's uh you'll go through that bottle faster than you think.
00:35:19.110 --> 00:35:19.510
Yeah.
00:35:19.829 --> 00:35:20.869
Did we answer the question?
00:35:20.950 --> 00:35:22.390
Or did we answer the question that we wanted to answer?
00:35:23.590 --> 00:35:24.390
I think we answered it.
00:35:24.630 --> 00:35:26.070
The question was, can you leave it out?
00:35:26.390 --> 00:35:26.630
Dumb.
00:35:26.869 --> 00:35:27.110
Yes.
00:35:27.190 --> 00:35:28.550
I mean, you can leave it out.
00:35:28.869 --> 00:35:31.670
But um, I wouldn't, there's nothing to substitute for, really.
00:35:31.829 --> 00:35:31.990
Yeah.
00:35:32.070 --> 00:35:32.150
Yeah.
00:35:32.390 --> 00:35:32.950
It's worth getting.
00:35:33.349 --> 00:35:35.349
You will regret it for the rest of your life, this answer.
00:35:35.910 --> 00:35:36.710
Is there another question?
00:35:37.110 --> 00:35:38.150
Yeah, we've got one more question.
00:35:38.309 --> 00:35:38.710
One more.
00:35:39.190 --> 00:35:40.150
Hi, King Arthur.
00:35:40.309 --> 00:35:46.390
I was wondering if you have any tips or advice for making apple pie ahead of time, especially around the holidays.
00:35:46.550 --> 00:35:47.510
Thanks so much.
00:35:48.150 --> 00:35:49.110
Do we ever?
00:35:49.430 --> 00:35:50.789
We have a whole recipe for this.
00:35:50.950 --> 00:35:55.510
I I just want I want to bake and make all my holiday food like weeks in advance.
00:35:55.590 --> 00:35:57.190
I'm tired of baking on the holiday.
00:35:57.269 --> 00:35:58.150
I want to relax.
00:35:58.390 --> 00:36:02.309
Well, I mean, I think it's like there's some things that you can't do ahead, right?
00:36:02.470 --> 00:36:03.349
Especially for the holidays.
00:36:03.510 --> 00:36:04.950
Like you're just like, there's no choice.
00:36:05.030 --> 00:36:06.230
There's things that you can't do ahead.
00:36:06.390 --> 00:36:11.110
So then I think you've got to take the off-ramps for things that you can bake ahead that don't suffer at all.
00:36:11.590 --> 00:36:15.670
And happily, pies, apple pies are one of those things.
00:36:15.829 --> 00:36:16.070
Yeah.
00:36:16.309 --> 00:36:21.349
I mean, we've talked before about like, of course, you can do your crust ahead, you know, if you're doing pumpkin pies, things like that.
00:36:21.510 --> 00:36:24.230
But for apple pies, you can do the whole kitten caboodle.
00:36:24.390 --> 00:36:27.430
So you can pre-cook your filling.
00:36:27.670 --> 00:36:27.990
Okay.
00:36:28.309 --> 00:36:37.510
You can make your crust, then you can assemble your pie, wrap it in plastic, put it in a or put it in a bag, and freeze the whole assembled pie.
00:36:37.750 --> 00:36:38.070
Wow.
00:36:38.309 --> 00:36:40.070
And then you have choices.
00:36:40.230 --> 00:36:49.030
You can either take the pie out the night before, let it thaw in the refrigerator and bake it in the morning, or lazy person like me, I'm not going to remember to take it out the night before.
00:36:49.110 --> 00:36:50.789
I just bake it from frozen.
00:36:51.190 --> 00:36:53.190
In which case you do have to add some extra time.
00:36:53.269 --> 00:36:59.910
Like it's going to take another 15 or 20 minutes to get truly, you know, again, you can't really over bake a pie, but it works great.
00:37:00.070 --> 00:37:00.309
Yeah.
00:37:00.470 --> 00:37:04.230
I do it just not just for the holidays, but I feel like there is some economy of scale.
00:37:04.309 --> 00:37:08.630
Like if you have freezer space, like if you're going to make one pie, why not make two pies?
00:37:08.789 --> 00:37:13.510
Like then you have a dessert at the ready, you can gift somebody a frozen pie, which is a really nice thing to do.
00:37:14.150 --> 00:37:15.590
So um, it works great.
00:37:15.750 --> 00:37:21.750
And I I actually think Harold McGee, who we should honestly have on this podcast, because he would be like, that's wrong.
00:37:21.829 --> 00:37:44.070
Your science is but he has some theories that are probably backed up by actual science and research about freezing pies actually being advantageous to the texture of the crust because you're freezing the water droplets in it, and then when you put it in a hot oven, like you're getting like the steam from the water as well as the steam from the butter, you know, like, and so you get extra flaky crust.
00:37:44.309 --> 00:37:44.630
Wow.
00:37:44.789 --> 00:37:49.590
I haven't done enough A-B comparisons to really know, but the point is like your crust is not gonna suffer.
00:37:49.750 --> 00:37:51.030
In fact, it might even be better.
00:37:51.269 --> 00:37:58.150
Also, you know, the it's not so much about the the labor, although, yes, the labor, but also the oven space.
00:37:58.470 --> 00:38:03.190
You know, you gotta get some stuff baked ahead because you gotta get that bird in there.
00:38:03.269 --> 00:38:04.070
Yeah, you know?
00:38:04.470 --> 00:38:14.789
Well, and that brings me to my approach, which is just to just bake the pie start to finish the the day before.
00:38:14.950 --> 00:38:15.110
Yeah.
00:38:15.349 --> 00:38:17.269
Even the morning before, it's it's gonna be fine.
00:38:17.590 --> 00:38:18.630
And then not refrigerate it.
00:38:18.789 --> 00:38:22.150
Don't refrigerate, just put it out, make sure no one gets their grubby hands on it.
00:38:22.309 --> 00:38:22.470
Yeah.
00:38:22.710 --> 00:38:23.990
And it's going to be fine.
00:38:24.309 --> 00:38:24.950
It's going to be great.
00:38:25.190 --> 00:38:28.550
In fact, because it takes a long time for a pie to cool.
00:38:28.789 --> 00:38:28.950
Yes.
00:38:29.110 --> 00:38:31.349
Like people are always like, Why are my slices so soupy?
00:38:31.430 --> 00:38:33.829
And some of that I think is the thickener you use, sure.
00:38:34.150 --> 00:38:36.869
But all too often I think people are cutting into hot pies.
00:38:36.950 --> 00:38:38.869
And then it's like, welcome to the stuff.
00:38:39.030 --> 00:38:40.230
That's why you're not getting your perfect slice.
00:38:40.390 --> 00:38:41.349
Yeah, that's why you're not getting it.
00:38:41.430 --> 00:38:42.390
You really got to let it set up.
00:38:42.470 --> 00:38:44.070
And you know, apples have a lot of pectin.
00:38:44.710 --> 00:38:50.230
So once it's like cooled and fully set, like you're gonna get that like beautiful diner style slice.
00:38:50.390 --> 00:38:50.550
Yeah.
00:38:50.789 --> 00:38:57.030
But you know, say your pie is baking for 90 minutes, that's not outside of the realm of possibility, and then you're letting it fully cool for five hours.
00:38:57.190 --> 00:39:01.670
Like, that's basically unless you've gotten up at the crack of dawn, that's a whole day to bake your pie.
00:39:01.750 --> 00:39:01.990
Yeah.
00:39:02.230 --> 00:39:03.670
And wait for it to be ready to cut.
00:39:03.750 --> 00:39:05.269
So doing it the day ahead is smart.
00:39:05.510 --> 00:39:07.829
I hope my family listens to this podcast.
00:39:08.070 --> 00:39:16.550
Because I've been, you know, as we've talked about before, and I won't get into it now because this is not my therapy session, but I have some trauma around Thanksgiving pies with my family.
00:39:16.869 --> 00:39:20.230
And I've been telling them for years, let's just make the pies the day before.
00:39:20.309 --> 00:39:21.510
They're like, the day before.
00:39:21.670 --> 00:39:21.829
Yeah.
00:39:22.070 --> 00:39:22.869
Like, you know what?
00:39:23.030 --> 00:39:27.030
I do have some level, some level of expertise here.
00:39:27.269 --> 00:39:35.590
I feel like the through line of season four is like you were once the baker of things in your household, and like one by one, the honor has been stripped.
00:39:35.670 --> 00:39:42.150
First, your husband started baking the bread, then your brother-in-law started baking the Thanksgiving pies, and like pretty soon you're just gonna be like the guy that goes out for ice.
00:39:43.030 --> 00:39:43.750
What's your job, even?
00:39:43.910 --> 00:39:44.150
I know.
00:39:44.390 --> 00:39:45.030
What are you doing?
00:39:45.269 --> 00:39:45.990
I feel I know.
00:39:46.150 --> 00:39:46.710
Gosh, you're right.
00:39:46.950 --> 00:39:48.789
They're writing you right out of the family history.
00:39:49.030 --> 00:39:50.710
Oh, let's get into Jess Opinions.
00:39:51.349 --> 00:39:52.710
That always perks you up.
00:39:53.510 --> 00:39:58.470
Every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head.
00:39:58.550 --> 00:40:01.030
A segment we lovingly call Jess Opinions.
00:40:01.269 --> 00:40:04.869
Jessica, what is your just opinion about apple pie?
00:40:05.349 --> 00:40:07.269
Well, it's not actually about apple pie, it's about apples.
00:40:07.510 --> 00:40:07.829
Apples.
00:40:08.070 --> 00:40:18.550
And my opinion is that caramel apples, you know, the ones that you see at the fairs that look so enticing, look so great, are actually disgusting.
00:40:18.869 --> 00:40:20.710
Oh, 1000% agree with this.
00:40:21.110 --> 00:40:21.750
It's so bad.
00:40:21.910 --> 00:40:23.510
There's so many things wrong with them.
00:40:23.829 --> 00:40:26.309
Caramel and apples, delicious flavor combination.
00:40:26.390 --> 00:40:26.550
Yeah.
00:40:26.869 --> 00:40:31.910
But there is something so unpleasant about, well, first of all, the caramel is like impossible.
00:40:32.150 --> 00:40:33.590
It looks like it's sticky on the apple.
00:40:33.670 --> 00:40:36.550
Then you take that first bite and it's sort of like sliding off of the apple.
00:40:37.269 --> 00:40:38.789
And then it's like so chewy.
00:40:39.030 --> 00:40:42.390
It's like a textural nightmare between the chewy caramel and the hard apple.
00:40:42.470 --> 00:40:47.670
And also, let us just say, the apples underneath that caramel, they're not good.
00:40:47.910 --> 00:40:48.550
They're not good.
00:40:48.630 --> 00:40:48.869
Yeah.
00:40:49.030 --> 00:40:53.510
Like so often they're like the bruised, tragic, flavorless apple.
00:40:53.590 --> 00:40:56.869
So then you've got this mouth of like wet mouthful.
00:40:57.269 --> 00:40:58.070
Like mealy apple.
00:40:58.309 --> 00:41:01.030
Of wet mealy apple and then like the sticky caramel.
00:41:01.670 --> 00:41:03.030
This is giving me hives.
00:41:03.190 --> 00:41:04.470
I know, it's terrible.
00:41:04.789 --> 00:41:10.950
I have never understood the caramel apple, the indignity of eating this thing.
00:41:11.110 --> 00:41:13.190
It feels like a practical joke.
00:41:13.750 --> 00:41:18.869
Like you're giving this to people and they're walking around a fair trying to get their mouths around this thing.
00:41:18.950 --> 00:41:20.390
They have caramel all over their face.
00:41:20.470 --> 00:41:21.829
It's getting in their hair.
00:41:22.470 --> 00:41:25.750
Now they're chewing on a thing that is doesn't even taste good.
00:41:26.070 --> 00:41:27.590
It's not even a good apple, you're telling me.
00:41:27.750 --> 00:41:28.630
No, it's horrible.
00:41:28.869 --> 00:41:34.309
The only thing more confusing to me than a caramel apple is the candied apple.
00:41:35.110 --> 00:41:35.590
Well, yes.
00:41:35.990 --> 00:41:36.630
That's even worse.
00:41:36.869 --> 00:41:38.230
The candy apples are also horrible.
00:41:38.470 --> 00:41:39.110
How does that work?
00:41:39.349 --> 00:41:39.750
Not good.
00:41:39.910 --> 00:41:43.750
I mean, you've got that um hard candy like jammed in your teeth.
00:41:43.829 --> 00:41:48.390
Like who chews, it's like crunching on a lollipop, but with a mushy apple sidecar.
00:41:48.710 --> 00:41:52.789
And you can't eat a candied apple without looking like a clown at the end of it.
00:41:52.950 --> 00:41:56.470
You have like this like red candy, you know, red food coloring all around your face.
00:41:56.950 --> 00:41:57.510
No, it's not good.
00:41:57.670 --> 00:41:58.550
I mean it's not good.
00:41:58.869 --> 00:42:00.710
It's just it's just truly insane.
00:42:01.030 --> 00:42:03.269
People, just dip your apples in some caramel.
00:42:03.430 --> 00:42:04.150
Yeah, I mean, that's a nice.
00:42:04.470 --> 00:42:05.030
You don't need a stick.
00:42:05.269 --> 00:42:05.829
You don't need a stick.
00:42:05.990 --> 00:42:07.190
And you don't need to do it in public.
00:42:08.309 --> 00:42:11.829
Also, lots of other delivery systems for that combination.
00:42:12.070 --> 00:42:19.590
Like last year, we published a recipe for an apple cake with a whipped caramel frosting, which is like mind-meltingly good.
00:42:19.750 --> 00:42:29.750
So you take a caramel, you know, you make a caramel on the stovetop, let it cool, and then you whip that and add some butter to it, and you get this, you get all of that flavor.
00:42:29.990 --> 00:42:30.150
Yeah.
00:42:30.309 --> 00:42:34.869
Because caramel is one of the most delicious flavors, and paired with apple, very nice combination.
00:42:35.030 --> 00:42:35.269
Yeah.
00:42:35.670 --> 00:42:38.390
So there's other ways to do it that are much better.
00:42:38.550 --> 00:42:41.030
I mean, I understand, like you see them all lined up there.
00:42:41.110 --> 00:42:42.070
It looks promising.
00:42:42.309 --> 00:42:43.510
Disappointment every time.
00:42:43.670 --> 00:42:45.590
We're not making caramel apples this week.
00:42:45.750 --> 00:42:45.990
No.
00:42:46.230 --> 00:42:47.110
What are you baking?
00:42:47.349 --> 00:42:48.869
Pumpkin pie snickerdoodles.
00:42:49.030 --> 00:42:49.670
Oh, uh-huh.
00:42:49.910 --> 00:42:51.030
And I've never made these before.
00:42:51.110 --> 00:42:53.110
I'm actually making these because you told me they're delicious.
00:42:53.269 --> 00:42:55.190
And this is And I love a pumpkin cookie pie.
00:42:55.349 --> 00:43:04.150
I mean, and longtime listeners of this podcast will know that at one point I said out loud that snickerdoodles were a terrible cookie.
00:43:04.230 --> 00:43:04.470
Yeah.
00:43:04.710 --> 00:43:07.590
I may have even said they are the worst cookie.
00:43:08.150 --> 00:43:09.670
And we heard from people about that.
00:43:09.910 --> 00:43:10.789
People were upset.
00:43:11.269 --> 00:43:14.710
I guess this is the moment where I am, how do you say, eating crow?
00:43:14.869 --> 00:43:15.349
Oh, nice.
00:43:15.670 --> 00:43:21.269
Because DT, David Turner, in our test kitchen, made these pumpkin pie snickerdoodles and brought them to a tasting.
00:43:21.349 --> 00:43:25.750
And I everyone knows, you know, because I'm so quiet about my likes and dislikes.
00:43:25.910 --> 00:43:27.510
So everyone knows that I hate snickerdoodles.
00:43:27.590 --> 00:43:34.150
And I took a bite of these and I was like, dang, I actually like this cookie a lot.
00:43:34.390 --> 00:43:35.670
I brought some home even.
00:43:35.910 --> 00:43:36.869
Say the full sentence.
00:43:37.110 --> 00:43:38.309
I like snickerdoodles.
00:43:38.390 --> 00:43:39.430
I like these snickerdoodles.
00:43:39.670 --> 00:43:40.789
This is proof that people can change.
00:43:41.030 --> 00:43:41.349
I'm growing.
00:43:41.590 --> 00:43:48.150
You know, in this polarized era where we don't give anybody room to evolve and change, this is a beautiful thing.
00:43:48.309 --> 00:43:48.710
They're great.
00:43:49.030 --> 00:43:50.150
You're proving that people can change.
00:43:50.390 --> 00:43:50.789
Can change.
00:43:50.869 --> 00:44:01.430
And they have, you know, they have a lot in common with the traditional snickerdoodle, but they have pumpkin pie spice added to the spicy on the outside, and they have pumpkin in the cookie dough itself.
00:44:01.510 --> 00:44:02.630
And they're really great.
00:44:02.789 --> 00:44:03.349
They're really great.
00:44:03.430 --> 00:44:04.309
So I'm glad you're making them.
00:44:04.550 --> 00:44:04.710
Yeah.
00:44:04.789 --> 00:44:09.829
So based on your recommendation, I'm making the snickerdoodle that changed Jessica's mind.
00:44:10.070 --> 00:44:12.470
It's the big for a cookie to do.
00:44:12.550 --> 00:44:12.710
Yes.
00:44:12.789 --> 00:44:12.950
Yes.
00:44:13.190 --> 00:44:14.470
It's hard for anything to change my mind.
00:44:14.630 --> 00:44:14.789
Yes.
00:44:14.950 --> 00:44:24.309
So I'm gonna make this apple crumb cake, which is part of our fall recipe campaign, which are all the recipes that we think are sort of like essential baked for the season.
00:44:24.470 --> 00:44:27.269
And that recipe just recently got retooled.
00:44:27.349 --> 00:44:29.430
It's an older recipe, but we do that from time to time.
00:44:29.510 --> 00:44:30.390
We revisit older recipes.
00:44:31.510 --> 00:44:32.710
We optimize them.
00:44:32.869 --> 00:44:34.789
We tweak them to today's taste.
00:44:34.869 --> 00:44:37.829
So this one got a little bit of a glow up, and man, is it good.
00:44:38.230 --> 00:44:42.789
And it has, as I was talking about earlier, the apples get cooked on the stovetop.
00:44:42.950 --> 00:44:43.030
Yeah.
00:44:43.269 --> 00:44:46.150
And then they go on top of the cake batter, and then it has a strusel top.
00:44:46.390 --> 00:44:47.829
And it's very delicious.
00:44:48.070 --> 00:44:53.829
It kind of reminds me of those apple pie bars that we released last year, which I also loved.
00:44:54.390 --> 00:44:56.710
Those have like a shortbread base and the cooked apples.
00:44:56.869 --> 00:45:00.470
So this is a, you know, this is the breakfast version of that dessert.
00:45:00.789 --> 00:45:01.110
Delicious.
00:45:01.670 --> 00:45:02.070
Really good.
00:45:02.309 --> 00:45:02.550
Really?
00:45:02.789 --> 00:45:06.070
You know, you just mentioned something that made me realize something.
00:45:06.230 --> 00:45:12.950
One reason why I love apple bakes, whether it's pie, cookies, or cake, I consider all of that to be breakfast food.
00:45:13.030 --> 00:45:13.269
Oh, yeah.
00:45:13.510 --> 00:45:17.110
If it's got apples in it, I'm eating it in the morning with coffee.
00:45:17.190 --> 00:45:17.829
It's delicious.
00:45:18.070 --> 00:45:18.550
Yeah, it is.
00:45:18.710 --> 00:45:20.869
It's one of the best things you can do this fall.
00:45:21.030 --> 00:45:25.750
And we have, I don't know, I hundreds, hundreds of apple recipes on the site.
00:45:26.150 --> 00:45:26.309
Millions.
00:45:26.789 --> 00:45:27.590
Maybe maybe thousands.
00:45:27.750 --> 00:45:28.150
Certainly hundreds.
00:45:28.390 --> 00:45:28.789
Some on the side.
00:45:29.110 --> 00:45:29.750
Definitely dozens.
00:45:29.910 --> 00:45:31.030
We have a lot of apple recipes.
00:45:31.269 --> 00:45:32.470
So we definitely have one.
00:45:32.630 --> 00:45:34.550
We definitely have at least one apple recipe.
00:45:34.789 --> 00:45:44.230
But I think in the name of harmony, like whether you're like a galette person, a pie person, a cake person, a bar person, we have an apple bake for you.
00:45:44.309 --> 00:45:44.470
Yeah.
00:45:44.630 --> 00:45:47.190
And we want to hear which ones you make, which ones you gravitate toward.
00:45:47.349 --> 00:45:47.590
Yes.
00:45:47.829 --> 00:45:53.110
In the meantime, as ever, we appreciate people tuning in, joining us here on Things Bakers Know.
00:45:53.349 --> 00:46:03.349
And we hope you remember to like us and subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts or YouTube or Spotify, Amazon Music, wherever you listen or watch your podcast.
00:46:03.430 --> 00:46:11.110
Uh, we're also on Substack writing little missives to you and you know, listening to your, you know, reading your comments, sometimes replying to your comments.
00:46:11.349 --> 00:46:12.230
Yeah, always replying.
00:46:12.390 --> 00:46:13.110
Yeah, like us.
00:46:13.190 --> 00:46:17.269
You can leave comments on Substack, you can leave comments on the episode, you can leave us a review.
00:46:17.430 --> 00:46:21.030
I regretted it when one of the commenters said that I was cringe.
00:46:21.349 --> 00:46:33.990
The one I did see was, and it wasn't meant to be nice, but it was from, you know, listener who turned into a viewer on Spotify and said, Oh, this is the first time I'm watching Jessica and David.
00:46:34.470 --> 00:46:36.710
Wow, I really thought they were younger.
00:46:37.590 --> 00:46:38.869
I did too.
00:46:39.590 --> 00:46:40.230
I did too.
00:46:41.349 --> 00:46:41.990
So did we.
00:46:42.150 --> 00:46:42.710
So did we.
00:46:43.269 --> 00:46:48.789
You can also, of course, please do share an episode with a fellow baker who you think would like to know about this podcast.
00:46:49.030 --> 00:46:52.950
In the meantime, people, don't forget, follow the recipe.
00:46:53.349 --> 00:46:57.190
Things Bakeries Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamarkin.
00:46:57.510 --> 00:46:58.869
And me, Jessica Batalano.
00:46:59.110 --> 00:47:03.510
Rossi Anastapulo is our senior producer, and Chad Chennai is our producer and editor.
00:47:03.670 --> 00:47:05.750
Adam Baffa is our associate editor.
00:47:06.070 --> 00:47:08.309
Devin Shepard is our production coordinator.
00:47:08.470 --> 00:47:11.670
Engineering by Matt Boynton of Ultraviolet Audio.
00:47:11.910 --> 00:47:14.390
Original music by Megan and Marcus Bogala.
00:47:14.630 --> 00:47:19.030
Thanks again to Erin McDowell, Pie Queen, for joining us on today's episode.
00:47:19.269 --> 00:47:26.070
You can learn more about Erin and her latest cookbook, Bake Anything, at ErinGeenMcDowell.com.
00:47:26.470 --> 00:47:30.630
Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.
00:47:33.910 --> 00:47:36.309
This episode is brought to you by Cabot Creamery.
00:47:36.390 --> 00:47:42.550
Cabot Creamery is a farmer-owned cooperative dedicated to making delicious, high-quality cheese and dairy products.
00:47:42.710 --> 00:47:47.269
100% of profits go back to the farm families that own Cabot Creamery.
00:47:47.430 --> 00:47:51.349
And Cabot Creamery is the butter choice of the King Arthur Test Kitchen.
00:47:51.510 --> 00:48:01.590
Every ingredient in your favorite recipe is important, but fresh creamery butter, like Cabot's unsalted and salted butter, is the key to the best pastries, sauces, frostings, and flaky pie crusts.
00:48:01.750 --> 00:48:10.630
You can visit Cabot's website, cabotcreamery.com, for recipes, pairing suggestions, and a curated selection of gift boxes for every occasion.
00:48:10.789 --> 00:48:13.190
That's CabotCreamery.com.
00:48:14.630 --> 00:48:19.349
This episode is brought to you by Boiled Cider, which is more or less fall in a bottle.
00:48:19.590 --> 00:48:27.670
It's made by boiling down apple cider until it reaches a thick, super concentrated syrup that is tart and sweet and obviously very, very apply-y.
00:48:27.990 --> 00:48:32.150
It is sort of a habit-forming substance because it is so delicious.
00:48:32.550 --> 00:48:36.869
I mean, I like to kind of stir it into a little bit of hot water almost like to make a little tea.
00:48:37.349 --> 00:48:37.670
Me too.
00:48:37.910 --> 00:48:40.789
Yeah, it's got almost like the viscosity of maple syrup.
00:48:40.950 --> 00:48:41.269
Yes.
00:48:41.430 --> 00:48:43.990
But just like such a deep apple flavor.
00:48:44.150 --> 00:48:54.390
And so obviously, if you add it to like your pie fillings, you know, to your cakes, it just is like a supercharge of like delicious, rich apple flavor.
00:48:54.550 --> 00:48:54.789
I love it.
00:48:55.190 --> 00:48:58.309
We sell Vermont boiled cider on our website, kingarthurbaking.com.
00:48:58.470 --> 00:49:00.070
I think we're one of the only vendors for it.
00:49:00.150 --> 00:49:03.030
And we have tons of recipes on the site that teach you how to use it.
00:49:03.110 --> 00:49:05.110
So get yourself some boiled apple cider, people.
00:49:05.349 --> 00:49:06.309
What are you doing with your lives?
00:49:06.630 --> 00:49:07.110
So good.
00:49:07.590 --> 00:49:10.309
Hey bakers, before you go, one last thing.
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You already know that King Arthur has a legendary baking school in Vermont and Washington State.
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Well, a few years ago, we launched a new way to take classes from our world class educators.
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