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I'm Jo Muirhead and this is the Entrepreneurial Clinician podcast.
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This season is all about the future of working within healthcare and what it takes to stay
in meaningful work without being consumed by it.
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Across this season, we're going to be talking about capacity, identity, leadership,
ethics, and the systems that we're working inside of, including the ones that may not be
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serving us as the healthcare clinicians that we are.
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You'll hear from clinicians, founders, system shapers who've expanded how they've served
all without abandoning themselves, their identity or their credentials.
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And you'll also hear some solo episodes where I step back and name the patterns many of us
are living but rarely given language for.
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Things like psychosocial risk, moral injury, identity strain and the quiet exhaustion that
comes from carrying way too much for way too long.
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This isn't about hustle.
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This isn't about burning it all down and needing to find a brand new career.
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It's about learning how to work with clarity, capacity and intention so that we can
continue to contribute in ways that matter.
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I'm really glad you're here.
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Let's begin today's conversation.
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Well, welcome to another episode of the Entrepreneurial Clinician podcast.
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My name is Jo Muirhead and I am your host and I'm a little bit excited today, which is why
I'm dancing up and down on my feet.
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Yes, if you can't see me, I am kind of dancing, which is going to make my sister laugh
because she doesn't think this white woman can dance.
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Before we get started with this week's episode, I would like to acknowledge the Darug
people, the traditional owners of the land that I find myself on today.
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to say thank you for the honor, protection, guidance, education, support that you have
given this land.
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I want to honor their leaders past, present and emerging.
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So today's topic is going to be really interesting.
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It's probably a topic I needed to speak on years ago when I
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tried to set up my first e-commerce stores that failed miserably.
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So I have with us today Matthew Stafford, who is an e-commerce, I'm going to call him a
guru.
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He is probably not going to like that word, but I'm going to say it anyway.
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I've read his media kit and Matthew is not a health professional, but he knows about
e-commerce.
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And I thought who better for us to understand where we're getting this wrong.
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and what we can do to make it better for ourselves than somebody who actually knows what's
going on in the world of e-commerce.
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So Matthew, thank you so much for being on this podcast today.
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Can you share a little bit about who you are and how you serve the world?
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Yeah, thanks for having me.
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So I'm excited for the conversation.
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My journey started actually uh right when I got out of school.
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I actually bought the business of the guy that I was working for.
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So I've been self-employed since I was 18 years old and now I'm 53.
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So I've got over 30 years of, of what I would call the ultimate inner game of business
because no matter what, it's always going to show you where you don't show up good enough
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or where you need to improve.
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And it's always changing.
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So it's fun.
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and it's challenging and it's kept my attention for the last 30 plus years.
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30 plus years.
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So I've been a health professional for 30 plus years.
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So, you know, we've certainly got our 10,000 hours, so to speak, uh in our relative
discipline.
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one of the reasons I was excited to have you on this podcast is as health professionals
and clinicians, we are often looking at ways to supplement our income.
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so that we don't have to have the rigors of seeing clients one-to-one, back-to-back, every
day, every week, every month, every year.
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Like you get to a point in doing this work where you go, this is exhausting.
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So we've often thought to sell an information product, just sell a cheat sheet, just sell
a course, just sell a thing.
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And more often than not, people will come to me and go, that didn't work for me.
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That didn't work for me.
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That didn't work for me.
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And I'm a bit of a trial and error girl.
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So I have, I have stores in a variety of places trying to work out what the right thing or
the best thing or where I'm going to get my best return on investment is.
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But I'm wondering if you can just broadly speaking, tell us what it's like when you meet
people like me or people like health professionals who've just thrown up a widget in their
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website and call it e-commerce.
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What's your initial reaction?
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One, I'm proud of them because I think it takes some work.
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so I don't try to sugarcoat it and say, hey, if you put it up, they're going to come.
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But what I do say is your website is actually your conversation with that customer before
you get to talk to them.
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And so if it's not good at communicating,
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it's going to be very difficult for them to learn to know, like, and trust you and then
want to spend money with you.
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So what I would say is I would default to simplicity over complication.
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And a lot of times people think that if I give them more information or make the document
ah more and more more information, more and more stuff,
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that it will be more valuable.
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And the truth of the matter is people are already very busy.
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And so being very precise and we always say make it Homer Simpson simple.
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So super direct and to the point and not making it, so much information that it overwhelms
them.
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think like, I'll just come back later.
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Wow.
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So already being
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convicted, health professionals are generally really smart people.
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And I'm not saying that to boost out.
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We know, oh we've done a lot of study, most of them, have masters or even higher degrees.
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So we're used to operating it at a level of complexity that feels normal to us.
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And what I have learned in my career as a mentor and a coach is that where we think ground
zero is talking to a prospective client,
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We're at plus 100 and the client is at minus 20.
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We're not even meeting at ground zero.
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Okay, Matthew's nodding his head a lot.
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So you obviously agree with that?
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I 100 % agree with that.
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We even ourselves struggle with that a little bit from the standpoint of we know what they
need, but they don't think that's what they want.
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And so you have to meet them where they think they are.
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educate them from there, not try to educate them to get them to come over to where you're
at.
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And when you do that, you lose.
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So I'll give you, I'll give you a super good tip that anybody that has a website can use.
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And we run tests every single week, every week of the year.
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So we're always trying to make things better.
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And this one thing that we do is probably responsible for six of our 10 largest wins.
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in the last four or five years, which has resulted in millions and millions of dollars of
revenue.
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So on the thank you page, after somebody buys something or after they opt in for a
document, we ask them, what was the one thing that almost made you not buy or what was the
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one thing that almost made you not leave your name?
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And they will tell you what was confusing or what.
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they struggled with or what they didn't understand.
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And then you use those survey responses and you go back and you can fix your website based
off of users trying it and figuring things out.
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And it's gold.
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We do it on every single site that we start on.
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So for those of you who can't see me right now, my jaw just dropped because that piece of
information and when you implement that on your website, which
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Debbie and team, we will be doing that by the end of the week.
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Thank you very much.
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That is gold.
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That is millions of dollars just there.
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You no more guessing what the problem is.
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No more spending thousands of dollars on the next funnel expert who's going to help us
write the best piece of copy.
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No more agonizing over whether we should be using chat GPT or not.
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Like just do that.
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Ask the people.
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Ask the people.
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And the people that just filled out the form or just gave you money.
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want to help you because they believe in what you're doing or they wouldn't have given you
the money and they want to see you succeed.
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I can honestly say that I think it's probably the greatest um thing that we've ever done
as far as optimizing sites because that information from your ideal client is way more
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valuable than us looking at it and trying to guess what they're struggling with.
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Absolutely.
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what I love about the simplicity of that is it's simple for everybody.
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It's simple to implement.
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It's simple to get the responses.
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It's simple to action.
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It's a simple question.
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We're not asking like clients who come to us are usually high stress, very vulnerable,
freaking out.
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And the last thing we want to do is overcomplicate the situation, which we're very good at
doing.
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We are very good at overcomplicating things.
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But just a simple question like what made you almost not put your name here?
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They're going to want to share that with you.
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Yeah.
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That's very want to help you.
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It works very well.
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I also love that frame of reference.
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They want to help you because health professionals, again, we are constantly being told
you're not good enough.
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Insurance companies don't pay us very much money.
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They tell us what we should and shouldn't be diagnosing.
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They tell us how many sessions we should be having.
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So here we've got these administrators in these organizations coming along saying, want
evidence-based best practice treatment, but we don't want to pay for it.
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But we want the outcomes that it brings.
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So we've constantly got this rhetoric going around in our head is that expect rejection,
expect people won't like us, expect it to be hard, expect you have to push up the hill all
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the time.
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And then you come along and go, expect people want to help you.
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Yeah.
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And the thing is if...
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You ask them from that place of that you're trying to improve.
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Yes, you want to make it better for them, then they want to help you and in that uh you
don't feel like they're a burden because you have to take care of them.
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You feel like you want to help them and you are asking them to help you do a better job.
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Nice.
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Nice.
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Okay, that speaks into health professionals who love motivated clients.
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We love the clients who remain engaged.
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We love the clients who turn up with something ready to give in session.
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We don't always expect it, so this is another way of us doing that out of the therapy
room, being able to say, here's another way that we can work together.
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Here's another way that you're actually helping me.
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So there's a co-creation element, which is a big buzzword in health professional circles
right now.
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So this is a great conversation already.
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Wowzers.
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So can you just break down for us?
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Cause I think we've all got an idea of what e-commerce is, but if you asked a hundred
people to write down the definition, you're probably going to get a hundred different
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answers.
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So somebody who's been doing this for 30 odd years, what is it?
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To me, uh I believe that it's getting a conversion on your website.
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And so a conversion can mean a bunch of different things to different people.
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you need them to fill out a form, then that would be a conversion.
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It doesn't necessarily mean a sale.
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It means they came to your site, they saw this form, they filled it out.
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To me, that is you providing electronic.
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commerce or a way for them to do business with you.
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If you have a shopping cart and you're selling anything, getting them to purchase from you
and then you shipping them product for what they purchased.
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I would consider that e-commerce.
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For me, I really genuinely am always looking at how do we make the website communicate
with your ideal client?
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And for me, that is commerce.
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in its many different forms between the health professional and their patients or between
the store owner and their customers or vice versa.
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Now that's great.
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Again, you're very good at taking something that could be really complicated and just
bringing it right down to the simplicity of it.
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So for us, e-commerce can happen.
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somebody fills out a contact form on a website and says I need to book in an appointment
with you and if they're that that that's a conversion right yeah yeah it's gonna lead to a
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sale hopefully or at least uh a call and then from there if you create the sale then yeah
that's your that's your commerce channel which is your website it's the way that you have
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uh contact and communication with your prospective clients and with your existing client
great
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So for listeners in the health professional space here right now, you have already got
this up and running on your website.
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You are, so if you've got a website with a contact form that says, would you like an
appointment or would you like to talk to somebody about an appointment?
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You're already running this.
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So why we go and complicate it then thinking we need all this unnecessarily bells and
whistles when we try and sell a product is confusing.
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But I've done it.
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So I understand it because I think for me it just felt too simple.
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Go on.
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Yeah, same.
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have we.
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But I will say that when we go in and start working on our clients' websites or people
that hire us to do that, the majority of the first few months is us removing stuff, not
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adding new things.
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It's literally seeing what people are using and getting rid of all of the other stuff that
they're not using.
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or finding a way.
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One of the most important things I believe on the website is your navigation.
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If the navigation is confusing or not clear, people don't want to click on things that
they don't know where it's going to take them.
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looking at your website, instead of looking at it from how do I sell more stuff or how do
I get people to opt in, come to your website and look at it as the client.
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trying to figure out how they would solve their problem on your website.
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so flipping that from, I'm trying to get you to do something to becoming the person that
needs to do it and see how easy it is from that perspective.
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And when you have that little bit of a paradigm shift, you'll be shocked at how many
things that you'll see on your website that actually make it difficult for people to do
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business with you.
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So again, feeling very good.
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convicted right now because I know my websites are information overload.
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I just know and I have a personal attachment to all that stuff.
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I worked really hard to write that copy.
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I worked really hard to create all of those resources.
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They're a part of my identity.
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I don't want to give them up.
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Matthew is smiling because he's like, I've heard all of this before Jo How do I let go of
it?
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Well, what I would say is
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You probably don't have to, but how you arrange it matters.
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00:16:38,600
So it doesn't have to all be out front and center to start with.
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Let them kind of choose their journey and like pick up the breadcrumbs along the way.
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00:16:48,913
So your homepage is why should I know like and trust you?
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And then how do I find what I'm looking for?
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And then when I find that category, how do I then move into
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getting more information around that that I'm interested in.
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Brilliant.
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00:17:04,040
How to navigate your website.
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00:17:12,965
One of the things I'm going to take away from this conversation is I have a crew of
younger people, they're Gen Z people in my world purely because I don't understand them
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00:17:21,099
and they're helping me learn about them because I'm probably going to need to recruit
them, sell to them, mentor them and I figure if I can't even speak the same language we've
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00:17:22,269
got a problem.
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00:17:28,686
I'm thinking I'm going to get a Gen Z person to look at my websites and go, what do we
need to get rid of?
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00:17:32,769
Because they are so used to this life.
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00:17:37,417
Whereas me and my Gen X headspace, I'm like, I can't let go of that.
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00:17:39,575
I've got to keep it forever.
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very much so.
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00:17:43,318
Very cool.
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00:17:47,603
So what are some of the common mistakes you see with health professionals?
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00:17:51,012
So think of chiro's osteopaths.
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00:17:54,886
are sports scientists, mental health professionals, occupational therapists.
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00:18:02,594
What are some of the common errors that you see people like us making when we're trying to
sell products to existing clients?
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The site really what the intention of your site is to do is to get them to know, like and
trust you so that they have a conversation with you.
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Most of the websites try to educate the person and what it ends up being is when they come
to that, they're not trying to they're not trying to become the expert.
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They're trying to get the help that they need to solve their problem.
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00:18:32,550
And so when you're trying to
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show them, know this, I know that I'm certified in this, I'm certified in that.
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Your whole website is about you.
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It's not about them and their problem.
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00:18:50,824
And so if you're not describing the problem that they have, they don't think that you're
the solution.
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00:18:55,407
If your website's all about you, which everybody goes, well, I need to have my
credentials.
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00:18:59,610
You'll be shocked at um when it has nothing to do with your
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00:19:10,002
credentials, but you're talking about the problems that you solve and you can explain the
problem better than they can, they automatically assume you're the right person to help
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them solve that.
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00:19:21,054
So way less about yourself and way more about what you do instead of the education and all
of those aspects of it.
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00:19:28,802
In the 30 years that you've been doing this, has that education component changed?
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00:19:44,702
Cause I, somewhere along the line, probably in about 2010, when I started really focusing
on this, I got it in my head that my online presence was all about educating.
236
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00:19:47,742
Have I misunderstood that?
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00:19:48,910
Probably not.
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00:19:57,275
I think everything matures and goes through, you know, there's a lot of noise now, but
human nature has never changed.
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00:20:01,738
And that is the people don't care about how smart you are.
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00:20:04,740
They care about how well you can solve their problem.
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00:20:12,684
And talking about yourself a lot, it doesn't help them feel like you understand them.
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00:20:16,546
So when you talk about the types of problems that you solve,
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00:20:22,239
and how you do that, that's much better than your education and trying to.
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00:20:23,919
create credibility.
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00:20:25,821
Yeah.
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00:20:37,325
And for me, this comes back to the biggest problem that health professionals have is
trying to justify how good they are to their peers who we're often not selling to.
247
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00:20:41,447
Our peers are not going to buy our stuff.
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00:20:45,599
It just goes back to though, it really does go back to human nature.
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00:20:49,423
And it's all of us trying to create
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00:20:51,995
something that we're proud of and that we feel good about.
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00:20:57,829
And the truth of the matter is, again, um our website's not about us.
252
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00:21:03,612
It's about the consumer that's coming to the website that has a problem that they're
looking to solve.
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00:21:06,915
If they didn't have a problem, we wouldn't have a business.
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00:21:08,526
So it's never about us.
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00:21:11,578
It's always about them and the problem that they have.
256
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00:21:19,023
And if we can describe that problem better than they can, we are the automatic answer for
them.
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00:21:20,447
to get it solved.
258
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00:21:22,428
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant.
259
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00:21:28,830
So let's go back to selling products from a service-based positioning.
260
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00:21:37,413
So what I mean by that is health professionals are generally service-based, but then we
want to start selling a physical product or an information product as well.
261
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00:21:43,102
What are some of the things we need to be mindful of when changing it up from service
262
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to product.
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00:21:56,515
I still don't see that as a differentiator because either way you're solving a problem for
them, whether it's the service that you provide or it's the follow up care with
264
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00:21:59,456
supplements or whatever behind that.
265
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00:22:09,608
Typically the better service you provide, the higher conversion you're going to have in
your supplement because if you're giving them a good service, they're
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00:22:18,254
again, they know like and trust you with a lot of times very personal information or some
something that creates a lot of vulnerability for them.
267
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00:22:25,683
They would prefer to do business with you instead of go tell someone else about their
problems and want them to help.
268
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00:22:35,151
So I really feel like you guys have a much bigger chance for very loyal long term clients
than
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00:22:46,544
a regular person selling a widget where they have no, uh, the, the person buying it
doesn't have any barrier of entry to just go get it from someone else.
270
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00:22:47,926
That's fantastic.
271
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00:22:50,348
And that's actually been my experience.
272
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00:22:59,347
So I have customers that have followed me since I've been out on my own since 2009 and
they keep asking me, what else are you offering?
273
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00:23:00,518
What else do you do?
274
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00:23:02,500
How else can we get you in?
275
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00:23:10,904
when one of the ladies that I'm thinking of right now, when she's moved throughout her
career, she's kind of taken my consulting services with her.
276
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00:23:15,406
So I'm always going with her to her new place of employment.
277
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00:23:24,060
So there'll be a conflict for health professionals here because when we think about
loyalty of clients, mean, everybody likes to think that their clients are loyal, but it
278
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00:23:29,742
does bring up a bit of a difficulty for us in that we can be accused of over-servicing.
279
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00:23:34,049
Or we can be accused of giving people too much service and they don't need.
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00:23:40,580
And, um, you know, you often hear of physical therapists and chiropractors that you just
turn up for 20 minutes.
281
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00:23:41,731
You give them a hundred bucks.
282
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00:23:45,702
It's just a moneymaking scheme or dentists who always want to clean your teeth.
283
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00:23:48,202
It's just another part of their moneymaking scheme.
284
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00:23:53,414
How have you been able to help people change their mindset?
285
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00:23:58,003
Like, I don't want to be accused of just price gouging or
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00:24:04,142
or taking advantage of people to the place of, I'm really trying to help you.
287
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00:24:09,354
Yeah, I don't think that that's a question that's answered on the website.
288
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00:24:13,655
That's more of a relationship.
289
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00:24:19,038
And I think that the relationship with the client is going to prevent that.
290
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00:24:29,322
Rather than if you don't have time and all you're doing is giving them recommendations
rather than making them feel important and
291
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00:24:35,422
really the greatest human need that we have is to feel seen, heard and accepted.
292
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00:24:47,862
And so if you're just in, out, in, out, have an assembly line and you don't take the few
minutes to acknowledge something unique about that person, then I do believe you would
293
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00:24:55,342
feel like you're just part of the assembly line, not actually cared for as a patient.
294
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00:24:56,382
So.
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00:25:08,545
I think that has nothing to do with e-commerce and has a lot more to do with the
interaction that you have with your, with your particular patient that they feel seen,
296
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00:25:10,326
heard and accepted.
297
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00:25:21,909
So even when we're selling a product, we can enable our vulnerable hurting people to feel
seen, heard and accepted.
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00:25:22,669
Yes.
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00:25:26,004
And if you do that, I think that they want to buy from you.
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00:25:28,903
because they're not getting that from anywhere else.
301
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00:25:33,007
So how do people find us?
302
00:25:33,108 -->
00:25:42,594
So we've spent hours learning our craft, hours putting together, agonized over the design,
spent ages choosing a font.
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00:25:45,147
How do people find us?
304
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00:25:48,049
Because I know all the energy that goes into creating a product.
305
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00:25:51,581
There's not a lot of energy left over for selling said product.
306
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00:25:56,766
From an e-commerce perspective, how do we help people find us?
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00:26:05,362
Yeah, we certainly, the clients that we deal with use paid media as a way to scale their
business.
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00:26:09,445
And so for us, we're very data driven.
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00:26:18,331
And I would say that the more eyeballs that you have looking at something, the better
decisions that we can help you make with your website.
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00:26:26,770
And so I believe that everybody at some point should run ads, should run some paid media.
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00:26:38,985
and test out different messaging, test out different widgets or things and see what the
results are and then use that to keep on optimizing the experience.
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00:26:43,407
And the more that you do that, uh the faster you can optimize it.
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00:26:55,572
So if you're going very slow, which is still fine, uh the question on the thank you page
is gonna give you lots of tips and maybe if you have 10 sales,
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00:27:05,884
you're gonna get two or three people to fill that out with those two or three answers are
gonna drastically help if there's something besides like, it's too expensive.
315
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00:27:14,578
Like that's kind of like a default one that a lot of people will put in there that doesn't
matter because I don't think that your client should ever tell you what your service is
316
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00:27:15,388
worth.
317
00:27:17,542 -->
00:27:24,475
I hope everybody just heard Matthew say that it's not up to our clients to determine our
pricing.
318
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00:27:25,396
No.
319
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00:27:27,557
Wow.
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00:27:28,737
Thank you.
321
00:27:28,738 -->
00:27:31,919
That was the mic drop from Matthew.
322
00:27:33,419 -->
00:27:39,462
So now you're going to be speaking to a group of people who are terrified of spending
money.
323
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00:27:41,775
Cause most of us have bootstrapped it.
324
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00:27:42,105
Right.
325
00:27:42,105 -->
00:27:50,893
Most of us have started out as single clinicians and gradually built it and we're
exhausted and COVID made us more exhausted or the pandemic made us even more exhausted.
326
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00:27:58,299
And the thought of wasting money, because I have a whole story about how I spent a hundred
grand to learn that I didn't know what I was doing.
327
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00:28:03,943
um was paid ads by the way, Anywho.
328
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00:28:04,467
So.
329
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00:28:06,398
People don't want to do what Jo did.
330
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00:28:07,460
Right.
331
00:28:07,460 -->
00:28:12,254
So we need data and we're already talking to a group of people who are holding onto things
too tightly.
332
00:28:12,254 -->
00:28:13,184
Right.
333
00:28:13,424 -->
00:28:14,605
But we need data.
334
00:28:14,605 -->
00:28:25,041
And if we actually want to get enough eyeballs, cause people tend to think that, you know,
if I just got 10 sales, this would make my life so much better, but they don't realize how
335
00:28:25,041 -->
00:28:29,453
many people need to see your website in order for you to make those 10 sales.
336
00:28:30,114 -->
00:28:30,974
Right.
337
00:28:31,246 -->
00:28:38,750
How can you offer us some advice around our money scarcity in terms of not wanting to
spend money on ads in case it fails?
338
00:28:38,910 -->
00:28:39,300
Yeah.
339
00:28:39,300 -->
00:28:47,975
And then two, what are some of the numbers that we might not expect to make a sale from an
e-commerce perspective?
340
00:28:48,515 -->
00:28:48,976
Yeah.
341
00:28:48,976 -->
00:28:51,627
So, so most sites are very contextual.
342
00:28:51,627 -->
00:28:56,830
So it's, it's really going to depend on what type of profession and what your price point
is.
343
00:28:56,830 -->
00:29:01,002
You know, if you're selling $50 supplements, you could
344
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00:29:05,178
convert at six or 7 % if not higher because your traffic's warm.
345
00:29:05,178 -->
00:29:07,138
It's people that know like and trust you.
346
00:29:07,138 -->
00:29:13,378
But if you're selling a $250 service, then maybe two people out of 100 are going to buy.
347
00:29:13,378 -->
00:29:17,018
And so it really matters the price point.
348
00:29:17,018 -->
00:29:30,542
The other thing that I would say is I would not be afraid to talk to 10 or 20 of my ideal
clients who I'm already doing business with and ask them
349
00:29:30,542 -->
00:29:43,441
questions interview them find out what they are thinking about the words that they use the
other thing that you can do that doesn't cost any money is you can go to Amazon and Look
350
00:29:43,441 -->
00:29:49,455
at your competitors ah Look at the reviews that people leave on your competitors.
351
00:29:49,455 -->
00:29:56,000
Those are your ideal clients So what is the language that they're using to describe?
352
00:29:56,000 -->
00:29:59,508
the supplements that they're buying or what are they
353
00:29:59,508 -->
00:30:06,343
using to describe the thing that they're buying and then use that language in your copy.
354
00:30:06,343 -->
00:30:12,207
And when you do that, the person doesn't even realize it, but it speaks to them.
355
00:30:12,207 -->
00:30:23,715
And so you can really do a lot of things to give your site an advantage over other
professionals by just thinking a little bit differently.
356
00:30:24,736 -->
00:30:25,687
that's very clever.
357
00:30:25,687 -->
00:30:26,878
So again.
358
00:30:26,978 -->
00:30:31,361
For those of us who have books and workbooks, Amazon.
359
00:30:31,361 -->
00:30:35,143
What are other people in our space leaving as reviews?
360
00:30:35,143 -->
00:30:36,323
Goodreads.
361
00:30:36,323 -->
00:30:40,467
There's another place that people love to sprout forth with reviews and recommendations.
362
00:30:40,467 -->
00:30:41,857
Etsy.
363
00:30:41,857 -->
00:30:42,628
Etsy even.
364
00:30:42,628 -->
00:30:50,742
So I know that there are a lot of particularly mental health professionals and pediatric
professionals or people who specialize in pediatrics.
365
00:30:50,742 -->
00:30:54,080
There's a ton of resources being sold over, well.
366
00:30:54,080 -->
00:30:56,621
They're being posted on Etsy.
367
00:30:56,621 -->
00:31:00,804
What we started to do is go take all of those reviews.
368
00:31:00,804 -->
00:31:03,745
We'll scrape them or have someone write them all.
369
00:31:03,745 -->
00:31:14,961
We'll put them on a CSV and then upload it into chat GPT and ask it all kinds of questions
like what is the demographic and what are the what are the things that we're not getting
370
00:31:14,961 -->
00:31:17,293
from the language that they're using.
371
00:31:17,293 -->
00:31:23,095
And you will be shocked at how good it is at giving you very, very
372
00:31:23,866 -->
00:31:35,479
deep insight into your ideal client that people, we actually work on two doctor sites
right now that sell supplements and we took all of their reviews.
373
00:31:35,479 -->
00:31:38,160
They've been selling online for years.
374
00:31:38,160 -->
00:31:41,251
uh One of them is doing 8 million a year.
375
00:31:41,251 -->
00:31:51,324
The other one's doing a few million a year and they were so shocked to see the information
that ChatGPT gave them just from their reviews.
376
00:31:51,324 -->
00:31:52,802
So I would say that
377
00:31:52,802 -->
00:31:59,898
I use it in a way besides just, can you write copy for my supplement?
378
00:31:59,898 -->
00:32:09,225
No, find out about that person so that when you're talking and when you have information,
you know them better than they know themselves.
379
00:32:09,406 -->
00:32:10,707
Yeah, I love this language.
380
00:32:10,707 -->
00:32:11,478
I love this language.
381
00:32:11,478 -->
00:32:17,573
And the interviewing client, that's a part, I have a program called Five Favorite People,
which is about building a referral network.
382
00:32:17,573 -->
00:32:21,616
And a part of that process is you have to go and find 10 people.
383
00:32:22,042 -->
00:32:31,616
take each person out for a cup of coffee and we're going to learn about what their biggest
problem is and what they think the solution is without you mentioning who you are or how
384
00:32:31,616 -->
00:32:35,928
you solve anything so that we can capture their language.
385
00:32:35,928 -->
00:32:43,371
Cause we are so good at interpreting, you know, people come to us and we can already go,
Oh, that's a limp.
386
00:32:43,371 -->
00:32:48,063
They've got a problem with their knee, hip, their shoulder, whatever, or, that person's
really anxious.
387
00:32:48,063 -->
00:32:49,700
So we're already in our
388
00:32:49,700 -->
00:33:00,044
Therapy speak in our heads and it comes out of our mouths like it's such a well-worn
pathway But if people if we're not bringing people along with us for the journey like they
389
00:33:00,044 -->
00:33:10,728
don't like us or they can't trust us enough We're gonna leave them well behind and then we
get frustrated and then we feel rejected and then we feel incompetent and then we want to
390
00:33:10,728 -->
00:33:13,760
give up and The world does not need health professionals giving up.
391
00:33:13,760 -->
00:33:19,832
There's not enough of us the World Health Organization even says that there's just not
enough of us Okay
392
00:33:20,223 -->
00:33:21,544
what a great conversation.
393
00:33:21,544 -->
00:33:22,404
Thank you so much.
394
00:33:22,404 -->
00:33:30,898
Now you've, you've segued very nicely into my next, my next thought, which was about AI
and you've given us a great prompt and a great way to use chat GPT.
395
00:33:30,898 -->
00:33:38,711
So how else are you integrating AI into what you're doing for improving e-commerce?
396
00:33:39,072 -->
00:33:44,294
Yeah, it really requires a site with a lot of data in order to do what we're doing.
397
00:33:44,294 -->
00:33:46,475
And so we're taking
398
00:33:46,495 -->
00:33:59,949
all the reviews, all the sales, all the Google analytics and analyzing those and trying to
find, what we would call leaks uh in the, in the bucket where, you know, people are
399
00:33:59,949 -->
00:34:03,430
falling off without being able to make it through your process.
400
00:34:03,430 -->
00:34:12,294
So we're always trying to improve how easy it is for them to go through your website and
find what they're looking for and give you money for it.
401
00:34:12,294 -->
00:34:15,354
Again, that's just another piece of content there that is so good.
402
00:34:15,354 -->
00:34:16,694
Just make it easy.
403
00:34:16,915 -->
00:34:22,975
I think for me, it's, learned this lesson by getting incredibly frustrated going through
my own health journey.
404
00:34:22,975 -->
00:34:25,995
Why does this need to be so freaking complicated?
405
00:34:26,035 -->
00:34:32,275
Why do I see the same doctor every month and have to fill out the same form every month?
406
00:34:32,775 -->
00:34:35,415
Surely somebody's got the extra form I wrote last time.
407
00:34:35,415 -->
00:34:36,895
I'm sick people.
408
00:34:36,895 -->
00:34:39,091
I don't want to fill out the same form again.
409
00:34:39,355 -->
00:34:45,735
So how do we make it easy for people to go, want that thing that Jo created?
410
00:34:45,875 -->
00:34:47,894
That's the question we're answering.
411
00:34:48,535 -->
00:34:51,795
That's really, that's what you need to do.
412
00:34:51,795 -->
00:34:58,255
But people think that more is better and actually more creates the paradox of choice.
413
00:34:58,255 -->
00:35:01,815
And so then they don't know what to do.
414
00:35:01,815 -->
00:35:06,175
So you need to lead them through the process and the easier that you do that.
415
00:35:06,175 -->
00:35:08,015
That's why I think navigation.
416
00:35:08,023 -->
00:35:18,042
is probably one of the most important things on your website is things are labeled very
clearly and they have to click into it to get more information.
417
00:35:18,042 -->
00:35:24,577
So you're not overwhelming them with a whole bunch of stuff before they can actually even
make a decision.
418
00:35:24,577 -->
00:35:30,161
You're basically saying, oh, here's, here's everything that I solve.
419
00:35:30,161 -->
00:35:37,456
You come find out, you come figure it out and then I'll help you instead of, Hey,
420
00:35:37,456 -->
00:35:41,476
we solve these three things, pick the one that you're looking for.
421
00:35:41,476 -->
00:35:45,439
And when you click on that, then I'll give you more information around that.
422
00:35:45,439 -->
00:35:53,521
know, so the site gets progressively more detailed as they get into it because that's
where they're at in the journey.
423
00:35:53,521 -->
00:36:02,506
Instead of uh meeting them where they're at in the beginning when they're already scared
or overwhelmed or confused.
424
00:36:02,506 -->
00:36:09,019
and then you provide them all this information in a way that's not easy for them to
digest, of course they're gonna leave.
425
00:36:09,060 -->
00:36:10,921
Yeah, confused buyers never buy.
426
00:36:10,921 -->
00:36:12,282
Confused people don't buy.
427
00:36:12,282 -->
00:36:18,185
That will go to your competition and choose from a more simplistic website because they
feel educated to do so.
428
00:36:18,185 -->
00:36:26,950
We've done all the education, kind of acting like PBS or the ABC here in Australia, we've
given them all the education and taught them what to need to do so they've gone over to
429
00:36:26,950 -->
00:36:30,771
your competitor who has made it easy for them to go buy now.
430
00:36:30,812 -->
00:36:31,602
Yeah.
431
00:36:31,744 -->
00:36:33,024
Yeah.
432
00:36:33,405 -->
00:36:45,632
If a clinician was to turn up in your inbox today and say, I want to create an online
store that takes me away from ever needing to see a therapy client again with whatever
433
00:36:45,632 -->
00:36:46,413
therapy that is.
434
00:36:46,413 -->
00:36:48,694
So physical, mental, whatever.
435
00:36:49,335 -->
00:36:54,557
I need a store that's going to replace my income plus build into my financial future.
436
00:36:54,858 -->
00:36:57,339
Where would you tell them to start?
437
00:36:58,768 -->
00:37:03,010
For something that they're going to take money for, would say Shopify.
438
00:37:03,010 -->
00:37:11,504
Like they are by far the 800 pound gorilla in the space and they've continued to make it
easier and easier and easier.
439
00:37:11,504 -->
00:37:21,638
We deal with several platforms with the clients that we have and by far Shopify is the
easiest to work on.
440
00:37:22,098 -->
00:37:23,699
The cheapest
441
00:37:23,755 -->
00:37:39,034
developers because there's so many of them that understand it and the themes that they
have make it very point click simple to get something live and then optimize it based off
442
00:37:39,034 -->
00:37:49,201
of the other things that we've already talked about talking to your clients going and
finding reviews all of that stuff is built into a lot of the themes that you can get with
443
00:37:49,201 -->
00:37:50,251
Shopify.
444
00:37:50,939 -->
00:37:55,199
I was not expecting you to say that, but I am so grateful you did.
445
00:37:55,379 -->
00:37:56,419
Thank you so much.
446
00:37:56,419 -->
00:37:59,679
That's an incredibly generous answer.
447
00:38:00,479 -->
00:38:04,219
Cause let's just be, you don't own Shopify, right?
448
00:38:04,219 -->
00:38:06,099
No, no, no.
449
00:38:06,099 -->
00:38:06,599
Okay.
450
00:38:06,599 -->
00:38:08,660
It's just, letting the listeners know.
451
00:38:08,660 -->
00:38:13,640
Cause you know, you know, we're all suspicious of anything that sounds too easy.
452
00:38:14,346 -->
00:38:30,376
Yeah, it's certainly they've made it to the point where, you know, single moms that want
to start an online store can literally get a $29 account and start working on it and
453
00:38:30,376 -->
00:38:30,767
learn.
454
00:38:30,767 -->
00:38:40,934
And there's all kinds of even on our blog, we give you all kinds of best practices on how
to set your store up so that you'll get the most sales.
455
00:38:40,934 -->
00:38:43,350
Because our goal is we don't
456
00:38:43,350 -->
00:38:55,743
help the beginners very much, but the more the information that we give them and how to
set it up correctly, how to grow it, how to optimize it allows them to eventually get to
457
00:38:55,743 -->
00:38:59,884
the point where we can help them with what we do.
458
00:39:00,106 -->
00:39:02,907
So you're going to educate us so that we can trust you.
459
00:39:02,907 -->
00:39:04,097
Yeah.
460
00:39:04,097 -->
00:39:04,798
Right.
461
00:39:04,798 -->
00:39:10,227
So we're going to take away the information from your blog, which I'll get you to give me
the address for in a minute.
462
00:39:10,227 -->
00:39:14,581
So I'm going to take that information, I'm going to implement that information, I'm going
to see success.
463
00:39:14,581 -->
00:39:18,834
So that's going to make me more likely to come back to you and go, right, what's next?
464
00:39:18,834 -->
00:39:21,336
I'm now making a thousand bucks a month from this.
465
00:39:21,336 -->
00:39:23,638
What do I need to do to make it five?
466
00:39:23,638 -->
00:39:26,600
then, Oh yeah, that's really, really cool.
467
00:39:26,600 -->
00:39:28,532
So where do we go to find your blog?
468
00:39:28,532 -->
00:39:31,003
Where do we go to find anything about you?
469
00:39:31,104 -->
00:39:31,594
Yeah.
470
00:39:31,594 -->
00:39:38,530
Our website is buildgrowscale.com and you could put forward slash blog.
471
00:39:38,550 -->
00:39:39,835
We also have
472
00:39:39,835 -->
00:39:46,578
a lot of podcasts that we do where we share all kinds of things uh about how to optimize
your website.
473
00:39:46,578 -->
00:39:52,980
So there's tons and tons of free resources and very current information on there.
474
00:39:53,040 -->
00:39:53,691
Great.
475
00:39:53,691 -->
00:39:55,641
Thank you so much for that.
476
00:39:56,422 -->
00:39:59,173
Now, my next question is a very, very personal question.
477
00:39:59,173 -->
00:40:01,084
So I hope you're okay with that.
478
00:40:01,084 -->
00:40:03,336
If we were to ever meet in real life,
479
00:40:03,336 -->
00:40:04,860
and we're go out for a coffee.
480
00:40:04,860 -->
00:40:06,714
What am I ordering for you?
481
00:40:08,380 -->
00:40:09,400
Hmm.
482
00:40:10,521 -->
00:40:13,703
Well, probably a sugar free vanilla latte.
483
00:40:13,703 -->
00:40:19,266
I actually enjoy driving to the coffee shop each morning.
484
00:40:19,266 -->
00:40:22,267
And that's what I get is a sugar free vanilla latte.
485
00:40:22,267 -->
00:40:26,028
And for some reason, I mean, I live in Florida, it's 90 degrees.
486
00:40:26,028 -->
00:40:28,045
And I still like to have that.
487
00:40:28,045 -->
00:40:30,825
warm cup of coffee every morning.
488
00:40:30,825 -->
00:40:32,825
And it's just part of my routine.
489
00:40:32,825 -->
00:40:41,686
Oh, that's I am incredibly grateful for you and for the time that you've put into this and
you're reaching out and saying, Hey Jo, can I come and have a conversation with your
490
00:40:41,686 -->
00:40:42,227
people?
491
00:40:42,227 -->
00:40:43,787
Matthew, this has been wonderful.
492
00:40:43,787 -->
00:40:45,588
Thank you so much for your time today.
493
00:40:45,588 -->
00:40:55,612
uh Look forward to all the new inquiries that are going to be coming into your inbox and
for all the people reading your blog, because I know that there's going to be a few of us
494
00:40:55,892 -->
00:40:57,653
running to your website now.
495
00:40:57,653 -->
00:40:58,473
Fantastic.
496
00:40:58,473 -->
00:40:58,818
Thank you.
497
00:40:58,818 -->
00:41:00,444
Thank you very much for having me.
498
00:41:00,522 -->
00:41:01,746
My pleasure.
499
00:41:02,411 -->
00:41:12,070
If today's conversation gave you language, reassurance, or even a quiet acknowledgement
of, my God, it's not just me, then this episode has done its job.
500
00:41:12,070 -->
00:41:22,771
The Entrepreneurial Clinician podcast exists because the future of healthcare depends on
clinicians who are supported, resourced, and able to stay in the work without losing
501
00:41:22,771 -->
00:41:23,483
themselves.
502
00:41:23,483 -->
00:41:30,318
If you would like to support the continuation of these conversations, you can do that
through Buy Me a Coffee.
503
00:41:30,318 -->
00:41:38,666
It's a simple way to help cover the real costs of producing this podcast and to keep it
accessible to clinicians all around the world.
504
00:41:38,666 -->
00:41:46,103
And if you're listening as a service provider who supports health professionals, there's
also a space for thoughtful values aligned sponsorship.
505
00:41:46,103 -->
00:41:50,457
The kind that adds to the conversation rather than interrupting it.
506
00:41:50,457 -->
00:41:56,993
For clinicians, service providers, healthcare professionals around the world, the work you
do matters.
507
00:41:56,993 -->
00:41:58,985
The way you do it matters.
508
00:41:58,985 -->
00:42:08,301
And the profession needs clinicians who are willing to think differently about
sustainability, capacity, and care for themselves and for others.
