speaker-0: Hello, hello. Welcome back to the World Builders Podcast. I'm Jenny, and today I have a really beautiful conversation to share with you with my good friend and the supporting coach of the World Builders Councils, Elena Puff. Elena is an intuitive business and leadership coach. She has a PhD in psychology and she helps ambitious women leaders and entrepreneurs ditch. The patterns that are keeping them stuck, like overthinking and burnout, self-abandonment, all the things we've been taught to do to help us survive. She teaches you how to develop self-trust. You can step into a life of clarity and confidence. And Alina and I actually went to college together. This is a wild story, but we were in the same sorority. I'm a couple years ahead of her. And so I knew her in the context of being. Her pledge mom, which is like a hilarious piece of the puzzle. I you know, I took care of all the the little baby new pledges when I was in a sorority. Yes, I was in a sorority. And so I knew Elena in that context. I knew she was a D1 athlete, she was a rower. I didn't know much else. I vaguely tracked that she went to academia, got a bunch of degrees after we graduated from undergrad, and that we had this psychology overlap. We were both psychology majors, but I hadn't talked to her until about a year, year and a half ago when she sent me a message on LinkedIn saying, Hey girl, I see what you're doing. I see the thing under the thing and we should talk. And I'm like, what? So she and I hopped on the phone. I literally remember walking up and down my street on the phone and going, like, Whoa, I think I just found a soul sister. I think I just found somebody who is my heart person. And so She and I have this long and winding story since then of becoming voice note buddies, which happens with a lot of my favorite friends, and then starting to sort of like pseudo coach support one another, which again happens with all of my ambitious women friends. And then eventually, when I started running my council cohorts, I realized that Elena would be a perfect fit for a council supporting coach. And I will say. Really hard for me to find people that I trust and that I like to work with in a coaching context. Elena is a hundred percent that person. She is an incredible coach with this deep knowledge around psychotherapy and the way our she's obsessed with the nervous system. So the way that our lineage and our bodies are keeping us safe and also preventing us from making progress, oftentimes. And she is also very energetically attuned. She is. Incredibly good at finding energetically what's going on under the surface and naming it. She is a tough love, look you straight in the eyes, tell you the truth, kind of woman. And I love nothing more than that. So Elena is currently the supporting coach for the Fire Council. She will also be the supporting coach for the Earth Council. Now it's ri it's interesting. Like when you think about the council, I know you think about me as the leader, but There is something really incredible that happens when you have two women working together to hold a container. And that's what you're gonna hear us talk about today. The Earth Council starts, by the way, the Thursday before Saween for before Halloween. it's on the 29th. And we are gonna run through April. So I feel very strongly that this cohort specifically is meant to lead. This cohort is meant to take the stage, but to do that in their own way with their own leadership style. Elena is also a keynote speaker and a leader in that way. So of course she's gonna be the one leading and guiding and walking people through that. And it's so nice to be able to coach a group and say, Hey, you know, I think you should actually take that one to Elena because that is her superpower. So today you're gonna hear the two of us riff about coaching and the industry and what's changing in the coaching industry, what's working, what isn't, what it looks like to be in integrity, to receive. transformation to deliver transformation. This conversation is so good. I think I need to hover back on so we can talk about the nervous system as it pertains to money. But before we get there, I hope you enjoy this conversation. If you listen to this and think, my God, I need to be in that council, chances are when you're listening to this, we have a few spots left and I would love to talk to you about it. You can send me a note directly Jenny at the worldbuilders dot co. You can also submit an application through the website page, which is the worldbuilders.co or www.theworldbuilders.co backslash council. I will link both in the show notes. I would love to have a conversation with you. These sacred circles are pretty much an intuitive training ground. But yes, we are all making things, building things, businesses, creations. And that's the conduit through which the conversation comes about your own. Power. So I cannot wait to have a chat with you. If you're like, oop, it's me. And oftentimes you're somebody who's been tracking this program for a while and you're like, okay, my card is up. It's time. This is the fifth council I've run. And I also just hope you enjoy this conversation with Elena. I will include all of her notes in the show notes as well, all of her links, because she is running some incredible programming. And if your heart sings just the same song as hers, you will be able to find her there. Okay, let's get into that conversation. Hi, Elena. Welcome to the World Builders podcast.
speaker-1: Hi Jenny, thanks for having me.
speaker-0: I'm so glad you're here. I was just saying I'm surprised you haven't been on here up until now because we could probably just like put our voice notes on here and that'll be a whole podcast episode in and of itself. But
speaker-1: Easily.
speaker-0: yes, but today we're gonna talk specifically about integrity in coaching and what's going on in the coaching industry and why you and I coach the way that we do. And this was born out of me real I don't know, the other week I was like really upset about and just having lots of big feelings about the way the coaching industry has moved. And neither you or I really came up in the like traditional pop culture coaching world. So we're gonna get into that today. First thing I wanna invite you to do though is to like give us a snapshot of Elena in the present moment. So this is my favorite question. Like, what's going on right now? How would you describe your identity right now? What are you building?
speaker-1: Ugh, such a good question and a perfect place to start. So if you would have asked me six months ago, my answer obviously would be very different because I feel like I'm crawling out of this season of pivot in my business and my personal life. And I'm finally coming out the other side. And I'm like, wow, it's pretty over here. I like this. And so with that, I'm in a season of in business, doing this major pivot to primarily working with highly ambitious, high achieving, creative, intuitive women. Sound familiar. you're you're Your people are my people in many ways. And so I am making this pivot. And with that, I actually just this week launched a group container that I'm opening at the beginning of November, which is so cathartic for me because I talk all the time around how when you put a bunch of smart, intuitive women in a circle, historically that has not been very safe because that usually frames around our context in education and school, right? And it's like There was this competitive energy, this comparison energy. And so I have been doing a lot of deep internal work to prepare myself to hold this container for an amazing group of women who are gonna come in. And we're talking all things nervous system. So really, nervous system, I'm sure we'll get into it, is a cornerstone of my work and really how I believe we expand our aspects of our identity and grow as human beings, having this human experience. And so that. Kind of what's going on on the professional end. And then on the personal end, I am preparing to get engaged. I'm preparing for my partner to propose to me. And so I'm going through all these shifts. I turn 35 next week. Like all these identity upgrades are coming where I'm just like, wait a second, this is everything I've been praying for. And I am just holding on here and just so excited to see how this unfolds in the coming weeks.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's been really cool to watch you walk through this whole pivot. And will you tell folks a little bit about what you came from? Because I think this is also helpful. You know, you're supporting coach in the council. So this is what we're doing with women is like walking them from maybe the thing that like made sense that they're trained to do into what is more of their soul's work. And I feel like this is your whole year. So what were you doing before and why wasn't it working for you?
speaker-1: Yes, several pivots have led me to this very moment. So formally I was trained as a psychologist. I have a PhD in psychology. I wanted to be like the buttoned-up shrink, you know, who had like the Shays Lounge in her my office. And how does that make you feel, Jenny? Like that was my whole identity for most of my adulthood. and over the last five years, it has been this unraveling of my own intuitive gifts. Understanding the aspects of my identity that I had once clung to were so disconnected from who I actually was meant to be. and really the process of removing this mask. And so when I launched my business, we're coming up on three years in business. I was primarily serving intuitive and sensitive children and their families because that's what my clinical work had mostly been around. I always had this, you know, desire to work with children. so I built this really successful. coaching business around serving intuitive, sensitive kids and their, you know, and their parents had hit the six figure.
speaker-0: Very very good at like
speaker-1: Yes. Yes. Incredibly like successful. I was able to make a really profound difference in the lives of my clients, you know, hit six figures within year one. Like did the damn thing. but over like that year two, I really hit this place where I was like, I'm not actually happy doing this anymore. this is really me trying to merge my old identity into this new one and something's gotta give. And this is the something that had to give.
speaker-0: Yeah, I've watched you do this. It's just been so I mean, if our little college selves could see us now, they'd be like, What? But they'd
speaker-1: I think
speaker-0: be excited. I actually do. I think they'd be really excited. But also, yeah, the winding road to get here is real. And I keep telling you, I think like you do legacy and relationship work essentially, like whether it's your relationship to yourself, your body, your lineage. And so of course you started with the kids and now it's just It doesn't feel to me so much as like a pivot as a maturing a growth, a right. Like like what you did before is contained in what you do now. I don't know if that feels true to you.
speaker-1: No, it does. I was actually just looking maybe a few weeks ago at my logo for my business. So my business is called Flow State. And it's this I had a friend design it on a napkin for me when I first wanted to launch my business. She's in graphic design. And so it's this these tree branches and they split into two and one's shorter and one's a little bit longer. And I was looking at it a few weeks ago because you know, you just look at these things in passing, and I was like, my God, this was literally foreshadowing the road. That I have taken over the last three years where that first initial branch was building on this understanding of development from the time we're babies into human beings. And now this other bigger, larger branch that is emerging is the second iteration of my business. And there might be more to come, who knows? Being multipassionate, you and I talk about it. We we change our ideas all the time. But really, I feel like that first iteration had to come forward for this new one to be birthed.
speaker-0: Yeah, and all the things you're teaching now are things you have like deeply lived and experienced. So I want to talk about because I think, you know, it's hard for me to find people to collaborate with on coaching. I think you and I have a really good energetic, like a shared value system, probably a shared approach. Like when I watch you coach, when you watch me coach, I'm like, yes, that. and it's rare. What I want to talk about is why we do it the way we do it. And then sort of what's happening in the larger Ecosystem because I don't know about you, but I just feel like there's a massive change going on in the way we get support, what we're craving. There's like a little market crash happening with a bunch of these coaches who've like done really shiny marketing but can't actually deliver behind the scenes in the way that people are expecting, right? So there's a lot that's shifting. Let's start with, and I'll share mine too: like, what is your when you think about helping someone through a transformation? What do you think is necessary to help them get there? Giant question.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. There's a few things that come forward for me. I mean, I think I go back again because my training was formally as a psychologist in this therapeutic setting. I I'm a research girly at heart. So looking at what research shows us, it's one of the biggest factors is client motivation, right? The person sitting on the other side of the call needs to want it more than you do. and I think that's something that in my past life as a therapist, I felt like I had to drag people through this process. Even in my coaching business with parents, I had to drag them through this process of like, you need to show up differently for your kid. There was a lot of like blaming the child for their the problems that were going on under their roof. And it was like, no, part of this is taking responsibility for it as the adult. so client motivation is what pops out for me first and foremost. I think second to that, Is the trusting relationship between the coach and the client. Yeah. I think this work that we're doing is deeply relational. And I always tell my clients that we move through this process of transformation like a relationship. Like I want you to be angry with me. I want you to be annoyed by me. I want you to have all the emotions that maybe you would experience with a partner or spouse. Cause to some degree we are mirroring that relationship. And that shows that there's authenticity, that there's openness to growth and fit cre feedback and criticism, whatever it may be. and that this is a safe container to do that, right? Because that's the caveat is that for many people, when they enter relationships with coaches, they are opening up parts of themselves that are incredibly vulnerable and are being challenged in a lot of those ways. And so safety is like. The cornerstone of everything that we do, and I feel like you and I have a very shared understanding of them.
speaker-0: Yes, I agree. I mean, this is the I think so often that a lot of us were not raised with a appropriate mirroring or B like I I would say attachment styles, like relationships that are safe for us to be in. Correct. And so when you're with a coach or a therapist who does that, it's often your first experience of that. And that's what happened to me with my first coach was like, I'm actually just safe to be completely witnessed. And that I think did so much of the work. Of me feeling safe enough to take risks and grow and like be more myself, right? So, but it is such an art to learn how to do this. I was sitting there this morning thinking, like, you and I are both deeply trained in this, right? So, like you have a literal doctorate in this. Like, I studied this for a long time. I did a two-year deep coaching program instead of becoming a therapist, but that was my other, you know, like I was choosing between the two. So there is a difference. I think of being in a room with somebody who has some of this training. I've worked with a few coaches who their life has given them that training, but I do think there's something to the study of it. I'm curious what you think about this because people always ask me, like, do I need training to become a coach?
speaker-1: Yes, it's a very divisive conversation or topic. because some people are like, no, a six-week program and a s in a life experience is certainly enough. I I actually disagree with that. I think that this is so much of like codifying the work that I do is around this understanding that it is an art form. It's truly an art. Even watching you coach, it's it's like art in motion, right? And I think that the study of that is at the foundation of it. And then obviously through practice and experience and whatever life has to offer us, that you know, compounds and adds to this art form. But I think the study of it is really important because it upholds the integrity of the process that you engage in when you're coaching someone. And so let's talk about what that looks like. For me, one of the fundamental pillars of my training as a psychologist was do not. Harm. Yeah. Do no harm. Okay. And that is something that even though I am not currently practicing as a psychologist, this is something that is again front and center to my work with my clients. Is I am always thinking about how to make sure that whatever comes out of my mouth, whatever recommendations I'm making, there is no harm attached to it. And I think that is super important because it disrupts a lot of what is in the modern day coaching. you know, space of just like by whatever mean that whatever means are necessary, I'm gonna do what I need to do. And for me, I'm always thinking about the client first rather than the bottom line, for example. And so that do no harm piece, I think, is super important. And I'm grateful for my therapeutic training in that because it allows me to always operate, like I said, in that in space of integrity, of making sure that I'm operating in a way that feels good for me. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: It's so interesting. I have been thinking about this in the context of larger rooms. So, like you and I both have training to be in a room with somebody and essentially like get ourselves out of the way as much as possible. And I think this is what causes a lot of issues in coaching relationships is like I'm responding to you as Jenny, as the person with the triggers and the responses that I would have to the world versus like I'm learning how to empty myself. I know that's a weird way to say it, but just to kind of be that straight up mirror. To help you figure out what's best for you, not what I think is best for you. Right.
speaker-1: So good.
speaker-0: That is such a thing because if you hire a coach who doesn't have that training and is teaching you how to be like them, I think it gets twisty. I think it's really twisty. And now I I was actually last night telling my husband, I was like, I think I need more training in how to hold a giant room like that. Like I'm now ready for the okay, how do I hold a hundred percent ceremony? And empty myself. I'm good at that, but it has a lot of consequences on my body. So I'm clearly still using my own nervous system to regulate that field. And what if I could create a field that isn't regulated by like it's held by me, but it doesn't cost me. So I think this is like a really this is what you're saying about skill set. Like this is a literal skill set. It's not just teaching people how you got the success that you got. So tell me. Because this is something else I have a tricky relationship with. Someone comes in asking you for a result. Like they're like, I wanna double my revenue. I wanna have 27 more clients. I wanna, whatever. What's
speaker-1: What is
speaker-0: your thought process on that? Like, A, obviously we can't guarantee that, but B, how do you help them get there and do it with integrity?
speaker-1: Yeah, but that yeah, that's such a good question. Cause I think based on what coach you talk to, they would probably talk about this differently. And so many people in the industry right now just want to copy and paste. Like, give me the blueprint. I'll follow the same steps you did, Elena, to get to the six figures in my business. And that just isn't the case. It's just not working. and I think that's why we have so many disgruntled clients being like, you know, I got scammed $30,000 for something that didn't work. I think my approach, similar to yours, is, you know, I'm not here to just promise you shiny results. You know, I think that results are a byproduct of the work that we're doing. But for me, my understanding of the transformation process that I take clients through is from the inside out. So when you're able to calibrate the world inside of yourself, really understand those aspects of your identity, how previous trauma is impacting the way you're showing up, your nervous system, and how that's being supported or not supported, all these pieces that people tend to want to avoid, honestly, because it's the harder work, is going to impact the byproduct, which is the revenue and the dream clients coming in and you know, the world around you again recalibrating to these changes that you're making internally. So I always say, like I was just talking with a woman this week and she had been working for with a leadership business coach for the past year. And she's like, it really helped me in the context of my work. She's a CEO for a local business here in town. And she's like, it really helped. I feel like more worthy in conference rooms and that I can speak up, but there's still part of me that's hooked. And the part of her that's hooked is the personal part of her. It's the nine year old version part of her that the business or leadership coach never actually addressed. It just talked to her kind of cognitively about strategies and things like that. But like, Doing that deeper underbelly work is how we integrate those different parts of ourselves so that we don't feel segmented between how we show up in our business or at work versus how we show up with our family versus how we show up with our clients. It's integrating all those together in a way that makes sense for you. And I think that's where the world around you starts to shift.
speaker-0: Yes. So I mean I this is why we coach well together because that's exactly where I live. It's interesting. I just had a client come back to me actually to share how things were going. I worked with her, I want to say maybe the first four or five months of the year. so it's been a little bit, it's been like six months. And she was like, she came in being like, I want to make more money. And then we spent four or five months talking about how her dad died. And that Created this whole tension around wanting to spend time with her family and feeling like if she made more money, she couldn't, which then, as you know, it roots all the way back down to the like six-year-old self. And so, of course, she's not making more money because that core belief means every time she goes and tries, she doesn't do it. And so she came back to me, you know, a month or so ago and she was like, I just looked at my revenue and it's up 20% overall. In the past five years, I've made the exact same amount. And I was asking her, like, why do you think that is? And she's like, you know, it's interesting. It wasn't fast, but I also feel kind of neutral about it. Like I almost don't even need it, which is like, this is the thing, right? I don't even need it. But also I believe, like, I'm getting evidence. I'm collecting evidence that I can be safe and still be with my kids. And honestly, it's not happening from her working more, it's hop happening from her changing what she's offering. And charging a little bit more, but her nervous system couldn't do that originally. And so this is I've had that happen so many times. I just had another person come back a year later and be like, came
speaker-1: I'm finally hitting my five
speaker-0: on. And she didn't have a coaching business at all when we started, right? But it's this thing that's like to me, it's like way down root cause. As you said, there it is. Like there's always one of those where I'm like, there it is. There's a reason why you're not doing this. And if I'm just trying to teach you how to raise your prices, like there's such a discrepancy. between your ability to execute versus like your system doesn't want you to, right?
speaker-1: And I and I think when we chase those ROIs, like we we are bypassing the actual process that needs to happen. And the reality is is. Jenny, I think not all people are meant to go through that process, right? I think there's we're calling up the women in in this case that are that are ready to kind of investigate these things. Enough is enough kind of energy. Yeah. And I think it's a part of when I go back to this concept of integrity, of coaching with integrity, is instead of just promising you the shiny keys to the car, which it would be out of integrity, I'm promising you like actual transformational change. But I can't lead that process. This process is client led in so many ways. And I am here really not as an expert as Dr. Elena Puff. I'm here to guide you. Like I'm really, and that's the other piece I think that makes us difference is like we're here walking side by side with you instead of this traditional hierarchical difference that we see in a lot of coaching client relationships. Right. And I think that is very ego led. I think when we look into the spiritual community, for example, we look at our gurus, they're the spiritual gurus are falling.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. And
speaker-1: You wonder why.
speaker-0: I think we have to talk about this part because so one of the things that was happening a couple weeks ago is there was this big conference, there was this like big name coach, and she was charging 25 grand to speak on her stage. Crazy and crazy. So these women are paying 25 grand. She picks in terms of hierarchy, in terms of social capital, who is Allowed to pay this 25 grand to get on the stage. These women get on the stage and the conference turns out to be incredibly poorly managed. So, like they're going on three hours late, there's like tech issues going on. And so several of them start to speak up and be like, that was not commerciate value. Like what I paid was not what I received. And then there's this whole surplus of like all these women coming out and saying, like, I signed up for her programs, which are also 25 grand for the year, for basically like Passive self-paced courses. and people are trying to get refunds, they cannot. There's like lawyers involved. It's like a whole thing, probably for about 50% of her clients. And so I was down this rabbit hole of like, that is an egregious version of what we're seeing happening, but it is this thing of like, you pay me a lot of money so that you can have a lot of money like me. And it's not working. A. But I think there's also this part of us that's like so desperate. For I mean, we're in a very unstable moment in society. It feels like, if I had more money, I'd I would be safe. and I'm curious your thoughts on like, why do we get so hooked on that? Because like we've both had our experiences of getting hooked in when a coach was like, here's the thing you get. And so I I think everybody I know has had that experience. Why do you think, why does it work? Like, is it just so shiny that it appeals to a part of our ego that wants it to be easy? Like, what's your take on what's going on there?
speaker-1: Ugh, I have so much to say. I have so much to say there's so much to say around this because it is a phenomenon that is playing out every single day. And so from my vantage point, I really look at these relationships that are forming are not only like from a client perspective, ego led. We want the same thing. Like people are on Instagram flashing their like they're in Bali for their fifth time this year. And this could be your life too. If you just take this course, like you'll live like I do. And again, I think an ego led Thought process is like, wow, that would be really nice. That's a lot of us got into entrepreneurship because we wanted that kind of freedom that that that lifestyle would afford us. And so there's that piece. I think even deeper than that, and this hits on my own story, is like there is a codependency that forms from an attachment style that we could get into where. For me, you know, I started working with a business coach even before I launched my business because something told me, and again, this was as my intuition was coming back online. It was like, girl, you can't do this yourself. And so I hired somebody who had a similar background to me, but had built up this really successful coaching business. And to your earlier point, that was the first relationship really in my life where I felt safe.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And this particular person was a was older than me by like 20, 25 years. So there was almost this maternal aspect. And it was pulling on these unhealed parts of myself that I then attached my value and worth to her. Right. And so now there's this relationship happening where I am attributing my success and my business to something external other than myself. And that's where it gets really freaking dangerous. Because I think something that you and I teach about is the success that our clients find are not directly correlated to anything because of what we said, did or recommended. It's because of what our clients chose to receive and incorporate and integrate into.
speaker-0: Oftentimes they hear things we don't even say. Like I'm always fascinated by that. People will be like, my god, you said this one thing and it changed everything. I'm like, I don't know
speaker-1: I said that
speaker-0: Like, I'm so glad, like, so glad you received that, you know? And also, like, you're the one taking brave action, right? Like this woman who increased her revenue by twenty percent, like, she's the one who's sitting out on her lawn talking to her dead dad, asking him for permission to do it differently. She's the one who's out there like raising her prices and negotiating the edge of like being with her kids and making money at the same time, right? Like it this is exactly right. Because if you're Then going on social media and being like, well, this woman's program made me this amount of money. Like, no, babe, you did. You know, you did. And maybe she walked with you. Love that. But she didn't do it for you. And this is so say more about the higher hierarchy piece. Cause I think this is what's crumbling, is our idea that we need someone better than us. I mean, even at this conference, Lena, I've heard she's refunding only certain people, like people who she deems powerful enough to like. fix it with and then not refunding other people, right? And so that speaks to this idea that like, they're better than those people. So say more about like why do we think that happens? And then why is it bad? Why is it dying out?
speaker-1: Yeah. So I mean, this is something that we were also trained from the perspective of becoming therapists is like the inherently when a client enters your office or enters your space, there is a hierarchy difference. And so this applies to the coaching industry as well, as we, you know, have kind of explained. And with that, I think again, the presence of the ego is here, right? And I can even speak to this in my own early career experiences of like, I almost became addicted to this feeling of being able to help people. Mm-hmm. And that was eco-driven. I was like, I thought I was being all altruistic and you know, look at all these people that I'm impacting in a positive way. But like so much of this work in order to stay in integrity, thematic here, is you have to remove yourself from it. And so in the situations where there is inherently a hierarchical difference, because there is, like, no matter what,
speaker-0: It's a power differential. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: a new client gets on the call and they're looking for me to lead, right? Right. But I think part of our responsibility as coaches is really being able to instead of you know operating up here and like you need to come up here and meet me. Part of our work is really to come down and say, Hey, we're gonna start at the bottom together and we're gonna walk up this these stairs together.
speaker-0: Yes. Well, I like, okay, so it's leadership, not hierarchy is a big thing that I think we're actually teaching in the council. you know, then so we're enrolling Earth Council right now, which he'll be a supporting coach on. And every conversation I've had with the women who are saying yes, they're like, I think I'm meant to be on stage. I think I'm meant to lead, but I don't see versions of leadership that feel good to me. Because a lot of times leadership is exactly what you just said of like almost like getting down on your knees with a kid, like getting level. And just being like, yo, I'm gonna walk with you. Like I'm I'm being brave and going first. And like I'm just gonna walk with you, but I'm not better than you. I'm not really even ahead, because what even is that?
speaker-1: That's a construct.
speaker-0: Right. I was talking to a friend of mine, Becca Camp, yesterday, and because I'm gonna be part of her summit, and she said this, so she's an evolutionary biologist. and I love that perspective on coaching. And she was saying, she's like, Listen. Something that is very maladaptive to our species is the separation of women. Like we separated women, we put them behind these white picket fences, and we said, You're alone in a home with a man who could hurt you. Good luck. And that that is so maladaptive in the, you know, long history of humanity that we really are meant to be together. And she was talking about how even just two women together or two marginalized people together, all of a sudden your nervous system. starts to feel safer, like literally just because of the presence of that person. So thus you can take more risks and you can explore parts of you that you maybe wouldn't be willing to, that like being alone is not normal in the context of our spe species. And I just like I can't unthink that. I've been thinking about it all day since I talked to her about it of like, isn't that the whole point of what we're doing? It's why I keep telling you like you are also meant to run group programs. Do you think this is gonna shift industry wide? Like, what do you think is gonna change?
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, I will say probably about 90% of the women that are coming in to work with me, I asked them about previous coaching relationships. And for those who have engaged in previous coaching relationships, they feel undersatisfied by the results. Like it is not just a few people in the industry who are really manipulating, and I'll use that word intentionally. the their clients and the returns that they're getting on their investments. This is a, you know, and again, this is part of an industry that is largely unregulated. And so now more than ever, it is so important that if you are someone who is looking for support, that is looking to expand and you know that you need Help doing that, which is good. this is where teaching discernment is so freaking important. Yeah, teaching concepts like sovereignty are so freaking important because when you enter those relationships again where there's an inherent power differential, you have enough awareness and agency to be able to call things out when you're not comfortable with them and ultimately leave those relationships. And again, I talked about how the The coaching relationship, that client coach relationship mirrors other relationships, right? So when you have the shitty boss who is evading your boundaries and, you know, disrespecting you, you can apply that same sovereignty to those situations, partners, spouses, friendships, you name it, it's a universal skill. And so that's one of the things that I think is so powerful for people who are looking for coaching support, therapeutic support, whatever it may be, because that Self-trust and belief in your own agency is like the powerful differentiator. I think where the industry is going is you and I have talked about this a little bit off script is I do think it is going to be healing in community. I don't think this work is meant to be done alone. We are meant as women to be witnessed in our transformation and evolution. And so because of that, I think creating spaces, safe spaces where women are welcomed. It's warm, it's inviting, it's collaborative. It's not this competitive, perfectionistic bullshit that we've been fed in school. I think that's where the transformation that maybe we would have experienced in a one on one capacity is going to deepen even more because you're not only being witnessed, but you have medicine for the woman sitting next to you. And that is super powerful.
speaker-0: Totally. I mean, I just keep thinking about how the coaching industry is like you know, power against the patriarchy and yet enacting these same concepts of like I'm above you, or like this capitalist, like I should receive more from this relationship than you do because I'm trying to make a profit. So I think we're gonna see pricing really change. That's one of my predictions. it's almost like the middle is falling out, so the like lower, more accessible like group elements. And then the sort of like really high touch work is gonna be valued and honored, I I hope, in a different way. Because you do, right? Like I I deeply believe in the group stuff. And there are times in your life where you need that deep one-on-one mentorship. A hundred percent. So and I think you go through seasons. Like that's my experience in my business. Like right now I feel like I'm in more of a peer season. But like I said, I'm really thinking about like, okay, if I want to lead Ceremony like a hundred people at a time. Maybe I actually need some mentorship on that. Like I need to apprentice with someone, right? so I think that I think we're gonna see pricing change. I mean, the idea that you would pay like three or four grand for coaching a month is ludicrous. It's like more than an MBA, right? and I mean maybe there's situations where that makes sense. Like it's not a a you know, mandate on everybody, but I just think prices have gotten really inflated. And so we need to be looking at reciprocity and value exchange that like feels good, right? and I'm always playing with this in my coaching programs. Like I feel like if I have
speaker-1: Deep deep in crazy
speaker-0: my pricing right now, I think you're right. We're gonna see lots more group stuff. I mean, even the council, like just you know, like you watch it, like they are helping each other. They are cross like supporting. I had somebody say to me the other day in one of the councils like Can you look at this? And I'm like, I mean, I can, but can you put it in the larger group so everybody can look at it?
speaker-1: Just makes sense.
speaker-0: Then they did. She got nine opinions. And right, like it's just this idea that, you know, one person is not above this like sacred circle that I think we're all craving. Like, it's so it's so interesting. Will you say to me? Cause we're in month four of our fire council, ladies, then we're about to start Earth, like. What is your perception of what changes for them when they come into a container like this? Because for a lot of people, they've never been in a container like this, right? Like we know therapy, we know like a membership model, but this council model, it's also not really a mastermind. Like maybe it kind of is, but it doesn't feel like it. Like it's so hard to explain what's happening in there. Will you say like what you see?
speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. It has been such an honor to watch this process and it's I'm really excited to kick off the new council and like have like comparison notes of like what's going on here. But for the fire council girlies, I mean, it's all deeply intuitive, like witchy women. And the initially we all come in there and we're like, is it safe to talk about the thing?
speaker-0: Just wait till next month. Next month is intuition month. It's my favorite. I'll be like, okay, so there's channeling. There's like, you know. Be psychic
speaker-1: Like we're just saying it.
speaker-0: and everybody in the room is like, yeah, I do that. And I'm like, okay, cool. Like, can like I'm so glad you could say it out loud. So a hundred percent. It is partially like, is it safe to be a witch? Like, yeah.
speaker-1: Yes. And and I think that's something again, part of the art of coaching is like being able to meet people where they're at at the outset. So like for me, like in the our calls, like it's really about just like creating a safe container where we don't have to go right into things. We meet we meet our clients really where where they're existing in that moment. And so the evolution has been amazing because you see them start like relaxing in their chairs, kind of putting their shoulders back. I mean, even just like the nonverbal changes of like, we're doing this deep unearthing of self. And that is a very hard to do in general. B, hard to do with an audience, but there is a level of vulnerability that is being asked of them between you and I in the space that we're holding, that it is actually instead of creating a space where it's like, I have to, I can't cry or I can't I can't look upset or I can't share these deep things that I'm holding. The container itself has been constructed with such intention that they are softening into each other. And that is the most powerful thing to witness because the softening into each other will transcend outside of the container, right? That will transcend their relationships to the relationships they have with prospective clients, their current clients, future clients, their ability to soften with their kids. Like, That ability to be vulnerable and be witnessed in that process beyond just like one person on a Zoom call is so profoundly impactful and transformational.
speaker-0: It take it it takes bravery and courage. And then it teaches them that it's actually safe to do that within discerning containers, right? Correct. I think for me, what I watch them do is realize like, this is who I am. I am allowed to claim my power. I am allowed to be seen a little messy. That's a huge one for like I always joke, like the council ladies are the ones, I should say council humans. We have some non-binary folks in there as well. Like, they're the ones who like if there was an apocalypse, they would be like, Okay, I know it's me. I will lead. Like, I got it. You know, like we're all that way. But that means we're not exceptionally good at being interdependent, receiving support, like being seen a little messy. And there's something that just like the little girl in you only wants that. She wants to be in a friend group with a bunch of witches, seen, learning, growing. And that does a lot of the work, I think, of like safety. Creation. And then, you know, what I love about having you in there too is like we're both tracking with holding the container. and not everybody can do that. This is where there's that skill set of like, you'll ping me and be like, this person might need a little nudge. Or I'm like, okay, we're working like we're tracking energetically and holding that group, which is one of my favorite things to do. I think it's why I love group work, but is again, it's not easy.
speaker-1: It's the hardest skill you'll exercise in your coaching practice is because like when you're with one on one, like the container is much smaller. Right. Now we have like eight humans that we're keeping track of. And it's it's it again, I've been in a lot of groups where the container is not sturdy. And so there it leaks.
speaker-0: It leaps.
speaker-1: Energy gets shifted, the vibe is off. You're like, why am I even paying for this? I don't even like these people. Like literally, the integrity of these containers are so important. That's where I see even the coaches that I've worked with in the past who've come in for support. Like, they don't know the basics of what it takes to actually create a space that is safe and supportive. And so I think it's really I think it is the future of healing. And I also think it speaks to that codependency piece that we spoke about earlier. Like if you're in a container with other women, And you're going through this process, they're not attaching their identity or worth to you or me or anybody who's facilitating. It's this collective shared identity. And that I think is gonna help support people's transformation.
speaker-0: Helps coaches. I mean, like for you, it like I had 25 one-on-one clients last year. Like I was holding them all. This feels to me like I go into these rooms and I feel filled up afterward in the same way that everybody else in that room does, right? It's like we also benefit from that. Like And I watched like you and I are also learning the curriculum with them. Like that is also what happens, right? Like I'm always like, okay, our next council is Earth. It's about deep roots and expanding from roots, not from like reaching your arms out further. And I'm like, okay, cool. Now Elena and I will also learn that like three months ahead of you and then walk you through it because if we say yes to teaching it, we're gonna have to embody it. So it is fascinating to watch. It's like I could be in the council, I could be leading the council. I'm still getting the same medicine. But I'm also responsible for like holding that field, which we do in a number of ways. Like agreements at the front. That feels so important, right? Like like the tracking of their energy, the like calling out of people who are walking away or not participating. The like, you know, I've had to deal with conflict with members who are like pissy about something. And then I have to sit with them and we talk about it. But like that is the facilitator's job, right? And if someone's yes, I mean, that's what's happening with this other shit storm of this coach is she's not doing that and she's not. Attuned to it because she hasn't been taught to. Like, that's the other part is like, yes, perhaps the blame is on her, but also it's on the system and the whole that told her that that's a business. Correct. So I mean, we just have to push up against it. So obviously, this is Elena and I saying, like, come join us in the council. It's amazing. It's so it's so fun. if you want to learn about deep nervous system work, I really feel like Elena, this is like your superpower is the the evolution of your lineage and how that shows up in your. body and it's like your deep area of studies. So that's what you're teaching in your bridge program, which I'm obsessed with. So if you want a smaller version of the council, like that is a it's called a bridge for a reason. so good. So will you tell us, Alina, like what do you want people to take from this today? Like what do you want them to hear or understand in a new way?
speaker-1: Such a good question. I think the main takeaway that comes forward is just this deep invitation to trust your own discernment and your own journey. I talk to women all the time who they'll get these full body no's and they'll override them and do it anyway. Yeah. And, you know, I can speak from my own experience of right now, I'm not working with a a mentor or coach. I'm at a one-on-one capacity. And part of my decision to stop that process was I was getting these full body no's of like, you don't actually need this anymore, or this value isn't holding it at the integrity in which you initially signed on for. And Being able to really trust those nudges, those pings, those visions, however they're coming forward. And it's not just about a coaching relationship, it's about all aspects of your life, right? being able to really listen to that and trust whatever is coming forward because you're usually right. You're usually spot on. And so that's why again, I think the programs that you and I are creating are helping women get quiet and listen to that voice that's coming forward. Because nobody knows your journey better than you.
speaker-0: Yeah. And we've been programmed to listen to everything beyond ourselves, right? Like we've been programmed to be like, well, you're more powerful than me. So I guess I should say yes to that. And so I think that's exactly right. It's a sovereignty, you know, it's a lesson in sovereignty. It's a conversation about sovereignty. It's a conversation about like what as leaders, like if you're listening to this and you're a coach, like what you are responsible for, I think. Like I think that's a big part of this. Like What you're signing up for, if you are signing up to lead, to be a coach, to be a facilitator, like you are taking on leadership and responsibility in a way that is it's big, you know? So it has to be like a a commitment on purpose. I I keep thinking about when I decided I was gonna do more of this work. Like I actually took myself out on a long walk and was like, okay, I'm committing to this work. What does it want from me? Right. Like I'm constantly teaching my clients, like the body work is sitting over here, but you gotta say yes. And like if you don't wanna say yes, that's okay. But like you're have to choose. So that's what I want you all to hear. it's interesting. I've had probably five or six conversations about the council, and there's about three people who I'm like, yes, it's it's time. There's a couple people where I'm like, I don't know, you gotta go walk with it, babe. Like, I'm not deciding that for you. Cause if you're not all in, I don't know. It's it's not gonna feel good. Like, I want a container of people who are all in on changing their lives because that is what this is: changing your identity, changing your relationships. You can't. Look away if you're in this room with the two of us.
speaker-1: Or or where
speaker-0: Also because we're doing the same work, right? So it is it's exactly right. Like we're we're with you, right? Like we've both changed so much over the past year. So thank you for being here. I adore you. It is also just, I hope you all hear. Like this is also what it's like to have sovereign sisterhood and friendship and people who call you out and see you clearly. Like that is also what we're building. And you and I get to have it with each other, which is also just like the gift of the gifts. So
speaker-1: Yeah, so grateful.
speaker-0: Yeah, so grateful. Thank you for responding to the universe ping to send me a LinkedIn post last year at Ranta.
speaker-1: One of the biggest blessings of the year.
speaker-0: It's so good. Okay, well, thank you all for being here with us. I will share all of Elena's details in all of the notes below in the show notes. She does lots of incredible workshops, lots of work about good girl programming and I love it and like witch wounds and money stuff. Like you and I have a lot of shared passion for the way money reveals all of our safety patterns. So love it. Elena's an incredible teacher, also speaks on stage quite a bit these days. So if you want to speak her at your next event. Elena's the coach. She's so good. Okay, thank you for hanging out with us, and we will see you all so very soon. Thank you so, so much for joining us for today's episode. If you love what you're hearing, the best thing you can do is leave us a review and share this podcast episode with someone else in your circle. Seriously, please, please do that.
speaker-1: A huge shout out to Jenny's husband Sean Gritters who produces this podcast.
speaker-0: And a big, big thank you to the World Builders team for supporting the growth of this podcast and creating an environment that sparks creative aliveness for hundreds of people every day.
speaker-1: Check out the show notes for links to find more information about working with Jenny and me or joining the World Builders Collective.
speaker-0: And on that note, here's to our rise. We'll see you back here soon for the next adventure.
speaker-1: Hi Jenny, thanks for having me.
speaker-0: I'm so glad you're here. I was just saying I'm surprised you haven't been on here up until now because we could probably just like put our voice notes on here and that'll be a whole podcast episode in and of itself. But
speaker-1: Easily.
speaker-0: yes, but today we're gonna talk specifically about integrity in coaching and what's going on in the coaching industry and why you and I coach the way that we do. And this was born out of me real I don't know, the other week I was like really upset about and just having lots of big feelings about the way the coaching industry has moved. And neither you or I really came up in the like traditional pop culture coaching world. So we're gonna get into that today. First thing I wanna invite you to do though is to like give us a snapshot of Elena in the present moment. So this is my favorite question. Like, what's going on right now? How would you describe your identity right now? What are you building?
speaker-1: Ugh, such a good question and a perfect place to start. So if you would have asked me six months ago, my answer obviously would be very different because I feel like I'm crawling out of this season of pivot in my business and my personal life. And I'm finally coming out the other side. And I'm like, wow, it's pretty over here. I like this. And so with that, I'm in a season of in business, doing this major pivot to primarily working with highly ambitious, high achieving, creative, intuitive women. Sound familiar. you're you're Your people are my people in many ways. And so I am making this pivot. And with that, I actually just this week launched a group container that I'm opening at the beginning of November, which is so cathartic for me because I talk all the time around how when you put a bunch of smart, intuitive women in a circle, historically that has not been very safe because that usually frames around our context in education and school, right? And it's like There was this competitive energy, this comparison energy. And so I have been doing a lot of deep internal work to prepare myself to hold this container for an amazing group of women who are gonna come in. And we're talking all things nervous system. So really, nervous system, I'm sure we'll get into it, is a cornerstone of my work and really how I believe we expand our aspects of our identity and grow as human beings, having this human experience. And so that. Kind of what's going on on the professional end. And then on the personal end, I am preparing to get engaged. I'm preparing for my partner to propose to me. And so I'm going through all these shifts. I turn 35 next week. Like all these identity upgrades are coming where I'm just like, wait a second, this is everything I've been praying for. And I am just holding on here and just so excited to see how this unfolds in the coming weeks.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's been really cool to watch you walk through this whole pivot. And will you tell folks a little bit about what you came from? Because I think this is also helpful. You know, you're supporting coach in the council. So this is what we're doing with women is like walking them from maybe the thing that like made sense that they're trained to do into what is more of their soul's work. And I feel like this is your whole year. So what were you doing before and why wasn't it working for you?
speaker-1: Yes, several pivots have led me to this very moment. So formally I was trained as a psychologist. I have a PhD in psychology. I wanted to be like the buttoned-up shrink, you know, who had like the Shays Lounge in her my office. And how does that make you feel, Jenny? Like that was my whole identity for most of my adulthood. and over the last five years, it has been this unraveling of my own intuitive gifts. Understanding the aspects of my identity that I had once clung to were so disconnected from who I actually was meant to be. and really the process of removing this mask. And so when I launched my business, we're coming up on three years in business. I was primarily serving intuitive and sensitive children and their families because that's what my clinical work had mostly been around. I always had this, you know, desire to work with children. so I built this really successful. coaching business around serving intuitive, sensitive kids and their, you know, and their parents had hit the six figure.
speaker-0: Very very good at like
speaker-1: Yes. Yes. Incredibly like successful. I was able to make a really profound difference in the lives of my clients, you know, hit six figures within year one. Like did the damn thing. but over like that year two, I really hit this place where I was like, I'm not actually happy doing this anymore. this is really me trying to merge my old identity into this new one and something's gotta give. And this is the something that had to give.
speaker-0: Yeah, I've watched you do this. It's just been so I mean, if our little college selves could see us now, they'd be like, What? But they'd
speaker-1: I think
speaker-0: be excited. I actually do. I think they'd be really excited. But also, yeah, the winding road to get here is real. And I keep telling you, I think like you do legacy and relationship work essentially, like whether it's your relationship to yourself, your body, your lineage. And so of course you started with the kids and now it's just It doesn't feel to me so much as like a pivot as a maturing a growth, a right. Like like what you did before is contained in what you do now. I don't know if that feels true to you.
speaker-1: No, it does. I was actually just looking maybe a few weeks ago at my logo for my business. So my business is called Flow State. And it's this I had a friend design it on a napkin for me when I first wanted to launch my business. She's in graphic design. And so it's this these tree branches and they split into two and one's shorter and one's a little bit longer. And I was looking at it a few weeks ago because you know, you just look at these things in passing, and I was like, my God, this was literally foreshadowing the road. That I have taken over the last three years where that first initial branch was building on this understanding of development from the time we're babies into human beings. And now this other bigger, larger branch that is emerging is the second iteration of my business. And there might be more to come, who knows? Being multipassionate, you and I talk about it. We we change our ideas all the time. But really, I feel like that first iteration had to come forward for this new one to be birthed.
speaker-0: Yeah, and all the things you're teaching now are things you have like deeply lived and experienced. So I want to talk about because I think, you know, it's hard for me to find people to collaborate with on coaching. I think you and I have a really good energetic, like a shared value system, probably a shared approach. Like when I watch you coach, when you watch me coach, I'm like, yes, that. and it's rare. What I want to talk about is why we do it the way we do it. And then sort of what's happening in the larger Ecosystem because I don't know about you, but I just feel like there's a massive change going on in the way we get support, what we're craving. There's like a little market crash happening with a bunch of these coaches who've like done really shiny marketing but can't actually deliver behind the scenes in the way that people are expecting, right? So there's a lot that's shifting. Let's start with, and I'll share mine too: like, what is your when you think about helping someone through a transformation? What do you think is necessary to help them get there? Giant question.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. There's a few things that come forward for me. I mean, I think I go back again because my training was formally as a psychologist in this therapeutic setting. I I'm a research girly at heart. So looking at what research shows us, it's one of the biggest factors is client motivation, right? The person sitting on the other side of the call needs to want it more than you do. and I think that's something that in my past life as a therapist, I felt like I had to drag people through this process. Even in my coaching business with parents, I had to drag them through this process of like, you need to show up differently for your kid. There was a lot of like blaming the child for their the problems that were going on under their roof. And it was like, no, part of this is taking responsibility for it as the adult. so client motivation is what pops out for me first and foremost. I think second to that, Is the trusting relationship between the coach and the client. Yeah. I think this work that we're doing is deeply relational. And I always tell my clients that we move through this process of transformation like a relationship. Like I want you to be angry with me. I want you to be annoyed by me. I want you to have all the emotions that maybe you would experience with a partner or spouse. Cause to some degree we are mirroring that relationship. And that shows that there's authenticity, that there's openness to growth and fit cre feedback and criticism, whatever it may be. and that this is a safe container to do that, right? Because that's the caveat is that for many people, when they enter relationships with coaches, they are opening up parts of themselves that are incredibly vulnerable and are being challenged in a lot of those ways. And so safety is like. The cornerstone of everything that we do, and I feel like you and I have a very shared understanding of them.
speaker-0: Yes, I agree. I mean, this is the I think so often that a lot of us were not raised with a appropriate mirroring or B like I I would say attachment styles, like relationships that are safe for us to be in. Correct. And so when you're with a coach or a therapist who does that, it's often your first experience of that. And that's what happened to me with my first coach was like, I'm actually just safe to be completely witnessed. And that I think did so much of the work. Of me feeling safe enough to take risks and grow and like be more myself, right? So, but it is such an art to learn how to do this. I was sitting there this morning thinking, like, you and I are both deeply trained in this, right? So, like you have a literal doctorate in this. Like, I studied this for a long time. I did a two-year deep coaching program instead of becoming a therapist, but that was my other, you know, like I was choosing between the two. So there is a difference. I think of being in a room with somebody who has some of this training. I've worked with a few coaches who their life has given them that training, but I do think there's something to the study of it. I'm curious what you think about this because people always ask me, like, do I need training to become a coach?
speaker-1: Yes, it's a very divisive conversation or topic. because some people are like, no, a six-week program and a s in a life experience is certainly enough. I I actually disagree with that. I think that this is so much of like codifying the work that I do is around this understanding that it is an art form. It's truly an art. Even watching you coach, it's it's like art in motion, right? And I think that the study of that is at the foundation of it. And then obviously through practice and experience and whatever life has to offer us, that you know, compounds and adds to this art form. But I think the study of it is really important because it upholds the integrity of the process that you engage in when you're coaching someone. And so let's talk about what that looks like. For me, one of the fundamental pillars of my training as a psychologist was do not. Harm. Yeah. Do no harm. Okay. And that is something that even though I am not currently practicing as a psychologist, this is something that is again front and center to my work with my clients. Is I am always thinking about how to make sure that whatever comes out of my mouth, whatever recommendations I'm making, there is no harm attached to it. And I think that is super important because it disrupts a lot of what is in the modern day coaching. you know, space of just like by whatever mean that whatever means are necessary, I'm gonna do what I need to do. And for me, I'm always thinking about the client first rather than the bottom line, for example. And so that do no harm piece, I think, is super important. And I'm grateful for my therapeutic training in that because it allows me to always operate, like I said, in that in space of integrity, of making sure that I'm operating in a way that feels good for me. Mm-hmm.
speaker-0: It's so interesting. I have been thinking about this in the context of larger rooms. So, like you and I both have training to be in a room with somebody and essentially like get ourselves out of the way as much as possible. And I think this is what causes a lot of issues in coaching relationships is like I'm responding to you as Jenny, as the person with the triggers and the responses that I would have to the world versus like I'm learning how to empty myself. I know that's a weird way to say it, but just to kind of be that straight up mirror. To help you figure out what's best for you, not what I think is best for you. Right.
speaker-1: So good.
speaker-0: That is such a thing because if you hire a coach who doesn't have that training and is teaching you how to be like them, I think it gets twisty. I think it's really twisty. And now I I was actually last night telling my husband, I was like, I think I need more training in how to hold a giant room like that. Like I'm now ready for the okay, how do I hold a hundred percent ceremony? And empty myself. I'm good at that, but it has a lot of consequences on my body. So I'm clearly still using my own nervous system to regulate that field. And what if I could create a field that isn't regulated by like it's held by me, but it doesn't cost me. So I think this is like a really this is what you're saying about skill set. Like this is a literal skill set. It's not just teaching people how you got the success that you got. So tell me. Because this is something else I have a tricky relationship with. Someone comes in asking you for a result. Like they're like, I wanna double my revenue. I wanna have 27 more clients. I wanna, whatever. What's
speaker-1: What is
speaker-0: your thought process on that? Like, A, obviously we can't guarantee that, but B, how do you help them get there and do it with integrity?
speaker-1: Yeah, but that yeah, that's such a good question. Cause I think based on what coach you talk to, they would probably talk about this differently. And so many people in the industry right now just want to copy and paste. Like, give me the blueprint. I'll follow the same steps you did, Elena, to get to the six figures in my business. And that just isn't the case. It's just not working. and I think that's why we have so many disgruntled clients being like, you know, I got scammed $30,000 for something that didn't work. I think my approach, similar to yours, is, you know, I'm not here to just promise you shiny results. You know, I think that results are a byproduct of the work that we're doing. But for me, my understanding of the transformation process that I take clients through is from the inside out. So when you're able to calibrate the world inside of yourself, really understand those aspects of your identity, how previous trauma is impacting the way you're showing up, your nervous system, and how that's being supported or not supported, all these pieces that people tend to want to avoid, honestly, because it's the harder work, is going to impact the byproduct, which is the revenue and the dream clients coming in and you know, the world around you again recalibrating to these changes that you're making internally. So I always say, like I was just talking with a woman this week and she had been working for with a leadership business coach for the past year. And she's like, it really helped me in the context of my work. She's a CEO for a local business here in town. And she's like, it really helped. I feel like more worthy in conference rooms and that I can speak up, but there's still part of me that's hooked. And the part of her that's hooked is the personal part of her. It's the nine year old version part of her that the business or leadership coach never actually addressed. It just talked to her kind of cognitively about strategies and things like that. But like, Doing that deeper underbelly work is how we integrate those different parts of ourselves so that we don't feel segmented between how we show up in our business or at work versus how we show up with our family versus how we show up with our clients. It's integrating all those together in a way that makes sense for you. And I think that's where the world around you starts to shift.
speaker-0: Yes. So I mean I this is why we coach well together because that's exactly where I live. It's interesting. I just had a client come back to me actually to share how things were going. I worked with her, I want to say maybe the first four or five months of the year. so it's been a little bit, it's been like six months. And she was like, she came in being like, I want to make more money. And then we spent four or five months talking about how her dad died. And that Created this whole tension around wanting to spend time with her family and feeling like if she made more money, she couldn't, which then, as you know, it roots all the way back down to the like six-year-old self. And so, of course, she's not making more money because that core belief means every time she goes and tries, she doesn't do it. And so she came back to me, you know, a month or so ago and she was like, I just looked at my revenue and it's up 20% overall. In the past five years, I've made the exact same amount. And I was asking her, like, why do you think that is? And she's like, you know, it's interesting. It wasn't fast, but I also feel kind of neutral about it. Like I almost don't even need it, which is like, this is the thing, right? I don't even need it. But also I believe, like, I'm getting evidence. I'm collecting evidence that I can be safe and still be with my kids. And honestly, it's not happening from her working more, it's hop happening from her changing what she's offering. And charging a little bit more, but her nervous system couldn't do that originally. And so this is I've had that happen so many times. I just had another person come back a year later and be like, came
speaker-1: I'm finally hitting my five
speaker-0: on. And she didn't have a coaching business at all when we started, right? But it's this thing that's like to me, it's like way down root cause. As you said, there it is. Like there's always one of those where I'm like, there it is. There's a reason why you're not doing this. And if I'm just trying to teach you how to raise your prices, like there's such a discrepancy. between your ability to execute versus like your system doesn't want you to, right?
speaker-1: And I and I think when we chase those ROIs, like we we are bypassing the actual process that needs to happen. And the reality is is. Jenny, I think not all people are meant to go through that process, right? I think there's we're calling up the women in in this case that are that are ready to kind of investigate these things. Enough is enough kind of energy. Yeah. And I think it's a part of when I go back to this concept of integrity, of coaching with integrity, is instead of just promising you the shiny keys to the car, which it would be out of integrity, I'm promising you like actual transformational change. But I can't lead that process. This process is client led in so many ways. And I am here really not as an expert as Dr. Elena Puff. I'm here to guide you. Like I'm really, and that's the other piece I think that makes us difference is like we're here walking side by side with you instead of this traditional hierarchical difference that we see in a lot of coaching client relationships. Right. And I think that is very ego led. I think when we look into the spiritual community, for example, we look at our gurus, they're the spiritual gurus are falling.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. And
speaker-1: You wonder why.
speaker-0: I think we have to talk about this part because so one of the things that was happening a couple weeks ago is there was this big conference, there was this like big name coach, and she was charging 25 grand to speak on her stage. Crazy and crazy. So these women are paying 25 grand. She picks in terms of hierarchy, in terms of social capital, who is Allowed to pay this 25 grand to get on the stage. These women get on the stage and the conference turns out to be incredibly poorly managed. So, like they're going on three hours late, there's like tech issues going on. And so several of them start to speak up and be like, that was not commerciate value. Like what I paid was not what I received. And then there's this whole surplus of like all these women coming out and saying, like, I signed up for her programs, which are also 25 grand for the year, for basically like Passive self-paced courses. and people are trying to get refunds, they cannot. There's like lawyers involved. It's like a whole thing, probably for about 50% of her clients. And so I was down this rabbit hole of like, that is an egregious version of what we're seeing happening, but it is this thing of like, you pay me a lot of money so that you can have a lot of money like me. And it's not working. A. But I think there's also this part of us that's like so desperate. For I mean, we're in a very unstable moment in society. It feels like, if I had more money, I'd I would be safe. and I'm curious your thoughts on like, why do we get so hooked on that? Because like we've both had our experiences of getting hooked in when a coach was like, here's the thing you get. And so I I think everybody I know has had that experience. Why do you think, why does it work? Like, is it just so shiny that it appeals to a part of our ego that wants it to be easy? Like, what's your take on what's going on there?
speaker-1: Ugh, I have so much to say. I have so much to say there's so much to say around this because it is a phenomenon that is playing out every single day. And so from my vantage point, I really look at these relationships that are forming are not only like from a client perspective, ego led. We want the same thing. Like people are on Instagram flashing their like they're in Bali for their fifth time this year. And this could be your life too. If you just take this course, like you'll live like I do. And again, I think an ego led Thought process is like, wow, that would be really nice. That's a lot of us got into entrepreneurship because we wanted that kind of freedom that that that lifestyle would afford us. And so there's that piece. I think even deeper than that, and this hits on my own story, is like there is a codependency that forms from an attachment style that we could get into where. For me, you know, I started working with a business coach even before I launched my business because something told me, and again, this was as my intuition was coming back online. It was like, girl, you can't do this yourself. And so I hired somebody who had a similar background to me, but had built up this really successful coaching business. And to your earlier point, that was the first relationship really in my life where I felt safe.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: And this particular person was a was older than me by like 20, 25 years. So there was almost this maternal aspect. And it was pulling on these unhealed parts of myself that I then attached my value and worth to her. Right. And so now there's this relationship happening where I am attributing my success and my business to something external other than myself. And that's where it gets really freaking dangerous. Because I think something that you and I teach about is the success that our clients find are not directly correlated to anything because of what we said, did or recommended. It's because of what our clients chose to receive and incorporate and integrate into.
speaker-0: Oftentimes they hear things we don't even say. Like I'm always fascinated by that. People will be like, my god, you said this one thing and it changed everything. I'm like, I don't know
speaker-1: I said that
speaker-0: Like, I'm so glad, like, so glad you received that, you know? And also, like, you're the one taking brave action, right? Like this woman who increased her revenue by twenty percent, like, she's the one who's sitting out on her lawn talking to her dead dad, asking him for permission to do it differently. She's the one who's out there like raising her prices and negotiating the edge of like being with her kids and making money at the same time, right? Like it this is exactly right. Because if you're Then going on social media and being like, well, this woman's program made me this amount of money. Like, no, babe, you did. You know, you did. And maybe she walked with you. Love that. But she didn't do it for you. And this is so say more about the higher hierarchy piece. Cause I think this is what's crumbling, is our idea that we need someone better than us. I mean, even at this conference, Lena, I've heard she's refunding only certain people, like people who she deems powerful enough to like. fix it with and then not refunding other people, right? And so that speaks to this idea that like, they're better than those people. So say more about like why do we think that happens? And then why is it bad? Why is it dying out?
speaker-1: Yeah. So I mean, this is something that we were also trained from the perspective of becoming therapists is like the inherently when a client enters your office or enters your space, there is a hierarchy difference. And so this applies to the coaching industry as well, as we, you know, have kind of explained. And with that, I think again, the presence of the ego is here, right? And I can even speak to this in my own early career experiences of like, I almost became addicted to this feeling of being able to help people. Mm-hmm. And that was eco-driven. I was like, I thought I was being all altruistic and you know, look at all these people that I'm impacting in a positive way. But like so much of this work in order to stay in integrity, thematic here, is you have to remove yourself from it. And so in the situations where there is inherently a hierarchical difference, because there is, like, no matter what,
speaker-0: It's a power differential. Mm-hmm.
speaker-1: a new client gets on the call and they're looking for me to lead, right? Right. But I think part of our responsibility as coaches is really being able to instead of you know operating up here and like you need to come up here and meet me. Part of our work is really to come down and say, Hey, we're gonna start at the bottom together and we're gonna walk up this these stairs together.
speaker-0: Yes. Well, I like, okay, so it's leadership, not hierarchy is a big thing that I think we're actually teaching in the council. you know, then so we're enrolling Earth Council right now, which he'll be a supporting coach on. And every conversation I've had with the women who are saying yes, they're like, I think I'm meant to be on stage. I think I'm meant to lead, but I don't see versions of leadership that feel good to me. Because a lot of times leadership is exactly what you just said of like almost like getting down on your knees with a kid, like getting level. And just being like, yo, I'm gonna walk with you. Like I'm I'm being brave and going first. And like I'm just gonna walk with you, but I'm not better than you. I'm not really even ahead, because what even is that?
speaker-1: That's a construct.
speaker-0: Right. I was talking to a friend of mine, Becca Camp, yesterday, and because I'm gonna be part of her summit, and she said this, so she's an evolutionary biologist. and I love that perspective on coaching. And she was saying, she's like, Listen. Something that is very maladaptive to our species is the separation of women. Like we separated women, we put them behind these white picket fences, and we said, You're alone in a home with a man who could hurt you. Good luck. And that that is so maladaptive in the, you know, long history of humanity that we really are meant to be together. And she was talking about how even just two women together or two marginalized people together, all of a sudden your nervous system. starts to feel safer, like literally just because of the presence of that person. So thus you can take more risks and you can explore parts of you that you maybe wouldn't be willing to, that like being alone is not normal in the context of our spe species. And I just like I can't unthink that. I've been thinking about it all day since I talked to her about it of like, isn't that the whole point of what we're doing? It's why I keep telling you like you are also meant to run group programs. Do you think this is gonna shift industry wide? Like, what do you think is gonna change?
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, I will say probably about 90% of the women that are coming in to work with me, I asked them about previous coaching relationships. And for those who have engaged in previous coaching relationships, they feel undersatisfied by the results. Like it is not just a few people in the industry who are really manipulating, and I'll use that word intentionally. the their clients and the returns that they're getting on their investments. This is a, you know, and again, this is part of an industry that is largely unregulated. And so now more than ever, it is so important that if you are someone who is looking for support, that is looking to expand and you know that you need Help doing that, which is good. this is where teaching discernment is so freaking important. Yeah, teaching concepts like sovereignty are so freaking important because when you enter those relationships again where there's an inherent power differential, you have enough awareness and agency to be able to call things out when you're not comfortable with them and ultimately leave those relationships. And again, I talked about how the The coaching relationship, that client coach relationship mirrors other relationships, right? So when you have the shitty boss who is evading your boundaries and, you know, disrespecting you, you can apply that same sovereignty to those situations, partners, spouses, friendships, you name it, it's a universal skill. And so that's one of the things that I think is so powerful for people who are looking for coaching support, therapeutic support, whatever it may be, because that Self-trust and belief in your own agency is like the powerful differentiator. I think where the industry is going is you and I have talked about this a little bit off script is I do think it is going to be healing in community. I don't think this work is meant to be done alone. We are meant as women to be witnessed in our transformation and evolution. And so because of that, I think creating spaces, safe spaces where women are welcomed. It's warm, it's inviting, it's collaborative. It's not this competitive, perfectionistic bullshit that we've been fed in school. I think that's where the transformation that maybe we would have experienced in a one on one capacity is going to deepen even more because you're not only being witnessed, but you have medicine for the woman sitting next to you. And that is super powerful.
speaker-0: Totally. I mean, I just keep thinking about how the coaching industry is like you know, power against the patriarchy and yet enacting these same concepts of like I'm above you, or like this capitalist, like I should receive more from this relationship than you do because I'm trying to make a profit. So I think we're gonna see pricing really change. That's one of my predictions. it's almost like the middle is falling out, so the like lower, more accessible like group elements. And then the sort of like really high touch work is gonna be valued and honored, I I hope, in a different way. Because you do, right? Like I I deeply believe in the group stuff. And there are times in your life where you need that deep one-on-one mentorship. A hundred percent. So and I think you go through seasons. Like that's my experience in my business. Like right now I feel like I'm in more of a peer season. But like I said, I'm really thinking about like, okay, if I want to lead Ceremony like a hundred people at a time. Maybe I actually need some mentorship on that. Like I need to apprentice with someone, right? so I think that I think we're gonna see pricing change. I mean, the idea that you would pay like three or four grand for coaching a month is ludicrous. It's like more than an MBA, right? and I mean maybe there's situations where that makes sense. Like it's not a a you know, mandate on everybody, but I just think prices have gotten really inflated. And so we need to be looking at reciprocity and value exchange that like feels good, right? and I'm always playing with this in my coaching programs. Like I feel like if I have
speaker-1: Deep deep in crazy
speaker-0: my pricing right now, I think you're right. We're gonna see lots more group stuff. I mean, even the council, like just you know, like you watch it, like they are helping each other. They are cross like supporting. I had somebody say to me the other day in one of the councils like Can you look at this? And I'm like, I mean, I can, but can you put it in the larger group so everybody can look at it?
speaker-1: Just makes sense.
speaker-0: Then they did. She got nine opinions. And right, like it's just this idea that, you know, one person is not above this like sacred circle that I think we're all craving. Like, it's so it's so interesting. Will you say to me? Cause we're in month four of our fire council, ladies, then we're about to start Earth, like. What is your perception of what changes for them when they come into a container like this? Because for a lot of people, they've never been in a container like this, right? Like we know therapy, we know like a membership model, but this council model, it's also not really a mastermind. Like maybe it kind of is, but it doesn't feel like it. Like it's so hard to explain what's happening in there. Will you say like what you see?
speaker-1: Yeah, for sure. It has been such an honor to watch this process and it's I'm really excited to kick off the new council and like have like comparison notes of like what's going on here. But for the fire council girlies, I mean, it's all deeply intuitive, like witchy women. And the initially we all come in there and we're like, is it safe to talk about the thing?
speaker-0: Just wait till next month. Next month is intuition month. It's my favorite. I'll be like, okay, so there's channeling. There's like, you know. Be psychic
speaker-1: Like we're just saying it.
speaker-0: and everybody in the room is like, yeah, I do that. And I'm like, okay, cool. Like, can like I'm so glad you could say it out loud. So a hundred percent. It is partially like, is it safe to be a witch? Like, yeah.
speaker-1: Yes. And and I think that's something again, part of the art of coaching is like being able to meet people where they're at at the outset. So like for me, like in the our calls, like it's really about just like creating a safe container where we don't have to go right into things. We meet we meet our clients really where where they're existing in that moment. And so the evolution has been amazing because you see them start like relaxing in their chairs, kind of putting their shoulders back. I mean, even just like the nonverbal changes of like, we're doing this deep unearthing of self. And that is a very hard to do in general. B, hard to do with an audience, but there is a level of vulnerability that is being asked of them between you and I in the space that we're holding, that it is actually instead of creating a space where it's like, I have to, I can't cry or I can't I can't look upset or I can't share these deep things that I'm holding. The container itself has been constructed with such intention that they are softening into each other. And that is the most powerful thing to witness because the softening into each other will transcend outside of the container, right? That will transcend their relationships to the relationships they have with prospective clients, their current clients, future clients, their ability to soften with their kids. Like, That ability to be vulnerable and be witnessed in that process beyond just like one person on a Zoom call is so profoundly impactful and transformational.
speaker-0: It take it it takes bravery and courage. And then it teaches them that it's actually safe to do that within discerning containers, right? Correct. I think for me, what I watch them do is realize like, this is who I am. I am allowed to claim my power. I am allowed to be seen a little messy. That's a huge one for like I always joke, like the council ladies are the ones, I should say council humans. We have some non-binary folks in there as well. Like, they're the ones who like if there was an apocalypse, they would be like, Okay, I know it's me. I will lead. Like, I got it. You know, like we're all that way. But that means we're not exceptionally good at being interdependent, receiving support, like being seen a little messy. And there's something that just like the little girl in you only wants that. She wants to be in a friend group with a bunch of witches, seen, learning, growing. And that does a lot of the work, I think, of like safety. Creation. And then, you know, what I love about having you in there too is like we're both tracking with holding the container. and not everybody can do that. This is where there's that skill set of like, you'll ping me and be like, this person might need a little nudge. Or I'm like, okay, we're working like we're tracking energetically and holding that group, which is one of my favorite things to do. I think it's why I love group work, but is again, it's not easy.
speaker-1: It's the hardest skill you'll exercise in your coaching practice is because like when you're with one on one, like the container is much smaller. Right. Now we have like eight humans that we're keeping track of. And it's it's it again, I've been in a lot of groups where the container is not sturdy. And so there it leaks.
speaker-0: It leaps.
speaker-1: Energy gets shifted, the vibe is off. You're like, why am I even paying for this? I don't even like these people. Like literally, the integrity of these containers are so important. That's where I see even the coaches that I've worked with in the past who've come in for support. Like, they don't know the basics of what it takes to actually create a space that is safe and supportive. And so I think it's really I think it is the future of healing. And I also think it speaks to that codependency piece that we spoke about earlier. Like if you're in a container with other women, And you're going through this process, they're not attaching their identity or worth to you or me or anybody who's facilitating. It's this collective shared identity. And that I think is gonna help support people's transformation.
speaker-0: Helps coaches. I mean, like for you, it like I had 25 one-on-one clients last year. Like I was holding them all. This feels to me like I go into these rooms and I feel filled up afterward in the same way that everybody else in that room does, right? It's like we also benefit from that. Like And I watched like you and I are also learning the curriculum with them. Like that is also what happens, right? Like I'm always like, okay, our next council is Earth. It's about deep roots and expanding from roots, not from like reaching your arms out further. And I'm like, okay, cool. Now Elena and I will also learn that like three months ahead of you and then walk you through it because if we say yes to teaching it, we're gonna have to embody it. So it is fascinating to watch. It's like I could be in the council, I could be leading the council. I'm still getting the same medicine. But I'm also responsible for like holding that field, which we do in a number of ways. Like agreements at the front. That feels so important, right? Like like the tracking of their energy, the like calling out of people who are walking away or not participating. The like, you know, I've had to deal with conflict with members who are like pissy about something. And then I have to sit with them and we talk about it. But like that is the facilitator's job, right? And if someone's yes, I mean, that's what's happening with this other shit storm of this coach is she's not doing that and she's not. Attuned to it because she hasn't been taught to. Like, that's the other part is like, yes, perhaps the blame is on her, but also it's on the system and the whole that told her that that's a business. Correct. So I mean, we just have to push up against it. So obviously, this is Elena and I saying, like, come join us in the council. It's amazing. It's so it's so fun. if you want to learn about deep nervous system work, I really feel like Elena, this is like your superpower is the the evolution of your lineage and how that shows up in your. body and it's like your deep area of studies. So that's what you're teaching in your bridge program, which I'm obsessed with. So if you want a smaller version of the council, like that is a it's called a bridge for a reason. so good. So will you tell us, Alina, like what do you want people to take from this today? Like what do you want them to hear or understand in a new way?
speaker-1: Such a good question. I think the main takeaway that comes forward is just this deep invitation to trust your own discernment and your own journey. I talk to women all the time who they'll get these full body no's and they'll override them and do it anyway. Yeah. And, you know, I can speak from my own experience of right now, I'm not working with a a mentor or coach. I'm at a one-on-one capacity. And part of my decision to stop that process was I was getting these full body no's of like, you don't actually need this anymore, or this value isn't holding it at the integrity in which you initially signed on for. And Being able to really trust those nudges, those pings, those visions, however they're coming forward. And it's not just about a coaching relationship, it's about all aspects of your life, right? being able to really listen to that and trust whatever is coming forward because you're usually right. You're usually spot on. And so that's why again, I think the programs that you and I are creating are helping women get quiet and listen to that voice that's coming forward. Because nobody knows your journey better than you.
speaker-0: Yeah. And we've been programmed to listen to everything beyond ourselves, right? Like we've been programmed to be like, well, you're more powerful than me. So I guess I should say yes to that. And so I think that's exactly right. It's a sovereignty, you know, it's a lesson in sovereignty. It's a conversation about sovereignty. It's a conversation about like what as leaders, like if you're listening to this and you're a coach, like what you are responsible for, I think. Like I think that's a big part of this. Like What you're signing up for, if you are signing up to lead, to be a coach, to be a facilitator, like you are taking on leadership and responsibility in a way that is it's big, you know? So it has to be like a a commitment on purpose. I I keep thinking about when I decided I was gonna do more of this work. Like I actually took myself out on a long walk and was like, okay, I'm committing to this work. What does it want from me? Right. Like I'm constantly teaching my clients, like the body work is sitting over here, but you gotta say yes. And like if you don't wanna say yes, that's okay. But like you're have to choose. So that's what I want you all to hear. it's interesting. I've had probably five or six conversations about the council, and there's about three people who I'm like, yes, it's it's time. There's a couple people where I'm like, I don't know, you gotta go walk with it, babe. Like, I'm not deciding that for you. Cause if you're not all in, I don't know. It's it's not gonna feel good. Like, I want a container of people who are all in on changing their lives because that is what this is: changing your identity, changing your relationships. You can't. Look away if you're in this room with the two of us.
speaker-1: Or or where
speaker-0: Also because we're doing the same work, right? So it is it's exactly right. Like we're we're with you, right? Like we've both changed so much over the past year. So thank you for being here. I adore you. It is also just, I hope you all hear. Like this is also what it's like to have sovereign sisterhood and friendship and people who call you out and see you clearly. Like that is also what we're building. And you and I get to have it with each other, which is also just like the gift of the gifts. So
speaker-1: Yeah, so grateful.
speaker-0: Yeah, so grateful. Thank you for responding to the universe ping to send me a LinkedIn post last year at Ranta.
speaker-1: One of the biggest blessings of the year.
speaker-0: It's so good. Okay, well, thank you all for being here with us. I will share all of Elena's details in all of the notes below in the show notes. She does lots of incredible workshops, lots of work about good girl programming and I love it and like witch wounds and money stuff. Like you and I have a lot of shared passion for the way money reveals all of our safety patterns. So love it. Elena's an incredible teacher, also speaks on stage quite a bit these days. So if you want to speak her at your next event. Elena's the coach. She's so good. Okay, thank you for hanging out with us, and we will see you all so very soon. Thank you so, so much for joining us for today's episode. If you love what you're hearing, the best thing you can do is leave us a review and share this podcast episode with someone else in your circle. Seriously, please, please do that.
speaker-1: A huge shout out to Jenny's husband Sean Gritters who produces this podcast.
speaker-0: And a big, big thank you to the World Builders team for supporting the growth of this podcast and creating an environment that sparks creative aliveness for hundreds of people every day.
speaker-1: Check out the show notes for links to find more information about working with Jenny and me or joining the World Builders Collective.
speaker-0: And on that note, here's to our rise. We'll see you back here soon for the next adventure.
