Make Disability Unremarkable

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Welcome to the Antypical Parent Podcast.
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It's a podcast for parents in additional needs families.
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And I'm your host, Liz Evans.
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This is the place to find your reassurance that there is no such thing as a perfect parent.
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It's here to make the hard bits feel lighter and the good bits brighter.
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Just quickly before we get started, are you looking for practical ways to support a child experiencing school anxiety?
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This season I'm delighted to let you know that the Untypical Parent Podcast is sponsored by Terry Wise from Wise Inclusion and Rachel Helm from Helm Education Consultancy.
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They are experts in inclusive education and supporting children who struggle to access school.
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Together they run webinars and workshops to help parents and schools work together and improve outcomes for children experiencing emotionally based school anxiety.
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If you're supporting a child struggling with school attendance, check the link in the show notes to find out more about how Terry and Rachel can support you.
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Thanks for being here.
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Let's get started.
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Welcome back to the Untypical Parent Podcast.
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Thanks for joining us today.
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I have someone very special come join me on the podcast called Sarah.
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And Sara has come to talk to us about something really, really important to her that she has created.
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Being a parent, we constantly are having to adapt and change and find ways around.
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I think we must be some of the most adaptable people there are on the planet.
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Hi, thank you for having me.
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It's an absolute pleasure.
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Lovely to have you here.
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So tell us and the listeners a little bit about, you know, where you were before you became a mum.
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What were you doing?
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What was life like?
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So, well, before I had a money, I mean life was was wonderful.
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It still is wonderful, but in a very different way.
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Um I was I I was doing really well in my career, had a fantastic job, um, kind of like reached a pinnacle of where I wanted to be in terms of career-wise.
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Um, I was living in in the Middle East, I was actually living in the UAE, had been there since 2006.
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Um and things were going really, really well financially.
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I was doing well, I was happy, comfortable, didn't have care in the world basically.
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Um and so when I was when I got pregnant with Amani, so my husband and I, we it was both our sort of like second marriages, if you like, and um we have grown children from previous relationships, and our plan was to um sort of travel the world and kind of like grow old together, and you know, that was basically the plan moving forward, and then I unexpectedly got pregnant with Amani, um, and everything sort of changed from then onwards.
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Um, so it's a bit of a long story, but probably go to the point where she was born.
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Um, so we had an idea that she was going to have Down syndrome when I was pregnant through testing, um, but we didn't determine the testing um, you know, for reasons that I just didn't want to do.
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But anyway, long story short, the pregnancy was fine, she was healthy, there was no indication throughout the pregnancy that she had any issues, um, medical issues, and she was growing really well and everything was good.
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And then when she was born, she was born with severe heart failure that wasn't actually picked up at all during my pregnancy.
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Um, and it was a really, really harrowing moment.
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I mean, to the point where she was rushed in to see a pediatric um cardiologist.
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Um, you know, they they told me that she's got two huge holes in each chamber of her heart.
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She needs to have emergency surgery, but because she was so young and so light in terms of her weight, um, we had to fatten her up.
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She wouldn't wasn't able to feed properly, so we had a lot of issues with that.
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And it was just before COVID, so it was December 2019.
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So those first few months of her life um were really, really challenging, where we were very isolated, um, trying to get to terms with understanding what Down syndrome was, understanding her heart condition, what the you know, the implications of that are, what, you know, what would happen if she wasn't to have the surgery.
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Um, and she's basically had three surgeries on her heart.
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And the first one was the open heart surgery.
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And I've got to tell you, Liz, it was it was probably, I mean, by far, not probably, it's by far the most daunting, dark part of my life.
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I mean, that one day, because it was during COVID, so I was in the hospital alone in this massive waiting room, and then there was a screen that kind of gives you an update on the surgery.
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And her surgery was around about six and a half hours, and because of COVID, only one parent could go in.
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So I was sat there and I was just watching the screen, and you know, all of these scenarios go through your mind.
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Um, and when she actually had that surgery, she was around six months old, and before that, she had started some like early intervention stuff from the age of two to three months.
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And I just sat there thinking about the physiotherapy, the occupational therapy that she had had at such a young age, and then thinking about the other families that I I had met, and um, and also you know, you you're in a position where you're you're just so deep in thought, and all of these scenarios just keep playing over and over in your head.
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And I remember pretty much everyone being really disappointed with the fact that I had a a child with Down syndrome and just sort of feeling sorry for me.
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Um I mean when you people say that to you, Sarah, would they say?
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No, they don't they don't say it out loud.
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I mean, I was I was actually advised to terminate when when I had that initial testing.
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But you know, you you get people say, Oh, I'm really sorry, oh that's really oh, it's really hard, oh what you could, you know, that kind of like disappointment.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And then meeting other families where they were just so they were just so exhausted and deflated with the constant kind of like, you know, going to appointments, battling for this, asking for that, trying to get information.
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It was just um I don't know how to explain it.
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It was it's almost like you're in a parallel universe, you know.
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And then I remember speaking to a charity here in the UK um called the Down Syndrome Association, when I really wanted to find out some information on Down syndrome, and I called up this charity, and then you know, this the lady who picked up the phone just burst into tears.
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This is when I was pregnant, by the way.
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I burst into tears, and then she said to me, Um, can I help you?
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And I was just crying down the phone, and then she said, Um, are you are you pregnant?
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And I said, Yeah, and I think my baby might have Down syndrome.
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And she's you know what she said to me, Liz?
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She said, Oh, congratulations on your pregnancy.
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And I was like, Ooh.
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First time someone congratulated me, you know.
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Really?
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Yeah, genuinely.
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And then sitting in that hospital, all of these things were playing back over and over in my mind, like all those experiences I've had, all the interactions I've had.
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And I thought to myself, how can I change people's mindsets?
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You know, and then I I thought about children, I thought about the life that Amani would have.
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So Amani's my daughter, um, and how she's already perceived to be very disadvantaged because of her condition, how she's gonna be isolated, how she's just gonna be stereotyped, and all of these kind of things.
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And I just thought, you know what?
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If I can reach out to children and um basically try and change mindsets at a really young age, those children are gonna grow up thinking that meeting people with whatever disability is just gonna be unremarkable because it's so natural to them.
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And that's that's how I came up with Moo Moo and Friends.
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So Moo Moo is is is the nickname for Amani.
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Um, doesn't actually have any meaning other than I just like the sound of Moo Moo, and I wanted to spell it differently as well so that people would remember it.
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Um, and then the other characters are, you know, so there's three main characters, Moo Moo is obviously one of them, and then you've got Harvey, who's um a supersonic puppy, and he was the puppy of a friend of mine, and then Enzo, who's a magical cat, is actually the cat of my brother and sister-in-law.
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Um, and then I'll just remember sitting in that hospital room, just coming up with all these scenarios of how I'm gonna make this work and how can I reach out to children um and just bring it into the mainstream.
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This is nothing that you'd had experience of before.
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You weren't in your previous life and as a job, you weren't an author, you weren't into this kind of thing.
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This was completely out of your experience.
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Completely out of my experience.
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It's almost like I was in that waiting room, and God just sat down and said to me, Do you know what, Sarah?
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Let's do something different.
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Because I knew that, I mean, I couldn't go back to work because I had to care for my my daughter, and I actually stopped working.
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So I I left my career.
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Um, and that was following a conversation that I had with her consultant, um, the surgeon at the time, who said to me, Look, you know, the first five years of her of any child's life is really important, but in particular with Amani.
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And I thought, well, you know, why would I pay someone else to look after her?
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I'm a mum, I'm I'm gonna do it.
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Um was that transition, Sarah, when you came from being, I was gonna say, when I think about when I hear about your job that you had before and now moving.
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Very, very hard.
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So, you know, I'm I'm always busy, or I was very busy in high profile roles with, you know, big organizations, and sort of coming from that to motherhood, but not really the kind of motherhood that I am used to.
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Um it's not what we imagined, is it?
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I think I don't think any of us set off thinking this could be a possibility for us when we head into being a mum.
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Oh no, absolutely.
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I mean, well, the thing is, so I've got an older daughter, and with her, it was obviously completely different.
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But I th I think it was trying to understand that change of lifestyle for me.
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It was I didn't have time to reflect on it.
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I sort of just jumped from you know, being this sort of career-minded, focused on my job sort of person, and then going into caring for a really vulnerable child, um, and trying to understand what that means and you know, what her condition means, what her medical condition means, not just the Down syndrome and all the things that follow on from that, um, and you know, subsequent diagnosis that came as as she she got a bit older.
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So it was very, very challenging.
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And then also coming back to live in the UK because because of her, we we came back over here because I'm I wanted her to have a more integrated life, if that makes sense.
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Um and here health professionals have the experience, the expertise, you know, it's a very well-established, obviously, medical framework in comparison to over there.
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Um, you know, over there, don't get me wrong, the facilities are fantastic, but you just don't have the level of expertise that you would have here.
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Um, also her schooling, you know, I I wanted her to just be around children.
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I didn't want her to be institutionalized in any way.
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Um, Sarah.
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Do you think there's a difference between you are out in the UA?
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Uh that's my dyslexic.
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UA U A E.
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Um Do you think she would have been perceived differently out there than she would have been in this country?
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Do you think there was a difference?
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I don't, yes, in in a sense where, oh, don't get me wrong, they they are very um welcoming of people with disability.
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Actually, they don't call disabilities disabilities.
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So they they they have a term that they call, they say POD, people of determination.
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They don't call them disabled people, they call them people of determination, which you know, which is great.
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But you know, you've got to remember it's a relatively new country, so some of the infrastructure takes some time to so things like mainstream like Amani wouldn't be in a mainstream school over there.
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Um the the the way that uh things are set up still needs some time to progress.
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Um they they're doing really, really well, don't get me wrong, but it's not the same as over here because obviously we've got a lot more experience and expertise in that.
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And I just wanted her to just be around children, you know, and just to have that childhood like any other child deserves, really.
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I didn't want her to be, okay, so we've got a place for children with Down syndrome, and this is where they go.
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No, you know, I want her to go somewhere where all children coexist together.
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And more importantly, Liz, what the other thing that was really important for me, I mean, throughout this whole process, and the more I kind of worked on Moo Moo and Friends, is that I started to realize how important it is for other children to see her, for other children to be around her, to have that exposure, because otherwise they wouldn't.
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And then that that mindset would basically continue, where you know, you you because I'll I'll tell you a quick story.
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I remember one time being in um in a playground, and this was over here in the UK, and Amani was about three and a bit.
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You know, she had those little walking frames, she was they were learning to walk.
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And we're in the playground, um, and she's just kind of like hovering around, and Amani's like checking people out.
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And this little girl kept looking at her, and she had this really bright green walker, so it was quite distinctive and people would look at it.
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And then she was staring at Amani, and then her mum kept saying to her, No, don't, don't stare, don't stare, it's rude, you know, don't do that, it's rude.
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So then I said I said to my mum, it's okay, you know, come over and say hello.
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So I kind of explained to the mum, I said, Look, it's it's okay.
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Because when you say to your children, don't stare, it's rude, I know that you mean it from a good place, but what your child is hearing is don't engage.
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That's what they're hearing, you know?
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That's what they're hearing, and I want you to engage.
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So come over and say hello.
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So she came over and I kind of explained what the walker was, and she was talking to Amani, and Amani's pre-verbal, she still is, she's she's six and a bit now, and so of course Amani didn't reply back to her, and then she was like, Why isn't she talking?
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And I explained to her, there are some people that don't talk, they don't speak, but we talk in other ways, and you know, the mum, her, it's almost like a light bulb switched on in her head.
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She was just so amazed as to, oh, I actually could explain this to my daughter, but she didn't know how.
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And then she had that conversation with me later on.
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She's like, Look, I'm I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.
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I'm not offended.
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You know, it's absolutely fine.
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Just come over and say hello.
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And I I get it because you we don't know how to engage with one another.
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Um, and that's the thing that I want all children to be free to do.
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Come and ask questions, find out about children that are different to you, um, and learn about them, same way how they would learn about you.
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And then for those children, let them be represented in some way as well.
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You know, how lovely is it to be able to read a story and then, you know, if you're a wheelchair user, for example, you see a kid in a wheelchair, or you know, if you're a child with a vision impairment, you you've got a character that represents someone like you.
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So yeah, I I thought that was really important.
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I think it's it's it's crucial because when children get older, um it's just unremarkable.
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That's what I want it to be.
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I just want disabilities to be unremarkable, and I see it working because even in her school, she's in year one now, and oh gosh, Liz, it's it's just hilarious.
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The kids are so used to her, you know.
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Um because in reception, because I actually had this thing when she started school, posted a video on the WhatsApp group, and I was like, you know, I'm Sarah, I'm Amani's mum.
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Your kids are gonna probably have questions about her.
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Please feel free to reach out to me.
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I'm happy to come and talk to you, happy to come and talk to your kids, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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You've got to explain yourself all the time.
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I mean, I'm sure you understand what I mean by that.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Now, the kids that I mean, like I said, she's the only child in the school.
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She doesn't have any words whatsoever.
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They communicate with her, they play with her, they protect her, they cuddle her, they love her.
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She's like a little diva.
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She's a celebrity in the school.
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And she's doing so well.
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And that's, and you know, when they see other children now, they're not frightened by it, you know, they're not uncomfortable.
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And that's the key, isn't it?
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I think like we were talking about that mum in that story that you've just retold is that people get frightened and then they worry about offending people.
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And like you say, I had never thought about that.
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But when we shut kids down and say, don't look, don't stare, don't ask questions, yeah.
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That actually we make that something that actually closes that person off from them and makes them we shouldn't go near them, but actually, like you say, well, bring them in and ask the question.
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And actually, kids are very inquisitive and they will ask the questions, won't they?
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And you often we're like, Whoa, that's really direct and to the point, but they don't have the social filters that we do wherever they've come from, that we shouldn't talk, we shouldn't share, we shouldn't ask.
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But actually, like you say, being ignored is worse.
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It is worse, and what you're saying to the child is you know, when you say don't look, don't stare, don't, you know, you're just saying that that that person is not someone that you should be interacting with, and that's the wrong message.
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And I know that's not the intention from the parent, but from a child's perspective, that's what they're hearing, you know?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Um, and I just I just want to change all of that basically.
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Do you think it gets exhausting, Sara?
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Does it get ti does it get tiring having to talk about it though?
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It gets tiring having to yes, having to talk about it.
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But do you know something?
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I find it's more tiring for me to talk about it to adults than it is to children.
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Children are absolutely, they get it straight away.
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So, you know, I've gone into schools and I've done like author's days and whatever, and like children will ask me questions and I'll answer them.
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They'll be like, oh, okay.
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You know, but for for example, why did because in one of the stories there's a little girl in a wheelchair, and long story short, she gets left out of a race in sports day, and then they'll ask, why did why did you know Ricky the captain, why didn't he want her in in the race?
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And I explained it to them.
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Um, and they're like, oh yeah, oh yeah, okay.
00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:44.000
And then they they get it because they're when a child is inquisitive and they ask questions and you answer it honestly, and I and I try and answer it in a in a way that is so basic so that they can understand it, that it's almost very raw.
00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:47.599
You know, so if when they ask me things like, why doesn't Amani talk?
00:19:47.759 --> 00:20:02.160
And I'll say to them, Well, you know, there are some people that don't use speech to communicate, they use, you know, sign language, or they can use visual tools, or they can go, you know, I'll give them different kinds of and then oh yeah, okay.
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:09.279
And that that's answered their and they're satisfied, and that's answered their question because that is the reality of the situation.
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:13.519
But I find it more challenging with adults, you know.
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:17.680
Um, and and it when you think about that, Liz, that's quite remarkable, isn't it?
00:20:17.839 --> 00:20:22.480
That you know, you want to kind of like reiterate things to an adult, but a child gets it straight away.
00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:39.279
And I think and I the reason I think that is because as adults, we've not been exposed to it as children, so it's all it is actually quite new to them as well, you know, and it's harder for an adult to absorb new information, whereas a child was like a sponge, as you know, and they just pick up anything.
00:20:40.000 --> 00:21:01.440
Um but yeah, and I think sometimes, as well as adults, we probably come from a generation, you know, you and I look similar age, and the fact that those kids that had those very obvious differences would have been separated from the the c the class, they would have been in separate schools, they would have been in separate classrooms, taken away, that kind of thing.
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:09.119
Um and I wonder that's probably where some of our kind of worry comes around is you know, what can I say, when can I say it as an adult now?
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:11.519
We were we were less used to that.
00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:13.359
I think it's changing now.
00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:25.119
Um, and we're seeing much more you know representation on TV and in films and and and in books, and exactly what you're doing is bringing that representation into people's lives.
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:42.319
Um, and I think like you say, working on and and supporting those children when they're young, so when they become adults, they are comfortable to have those conversations, they are around a whole range of people, whatever their needs or abilities are, it's just every day.
00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:45.759
And I kind of that I feel that really strongly coming through with you with talking.
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:56.720
It's not you know, it's not that you're minimizing anybody's needs, but actually what you're saying is that they're just accepted as part of life and and commute our communities.
00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.519
Absolutely. 'Cause cause it is, because you know.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.359
You hit the nail on the head.
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:12.960
When I was at school, um, which was yes, it was a long time ago, but we didn't we didn't have any any children with obvious disabilities in school.
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:18.960
I mean, I I remember I had a child who had a hearing aid, that was pretty much it.
00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:25.119
Um, because like you said, those children were not in mainstream schools.
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:32.319
They were either institutionalized, they were kept at home, um, and they were just basically isolated from everybody else.
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:32.799
Yeah.
00:22:32.960 --> 00:23:01.200
And and I think that uh and again that added to a lot of my anxiety because now becoming a parent of a child with very complex needs and coming from a background of having absolutely no involvement with anybody with any kind of disability, whether I was at school, in the workplace, through you know, even my own family and network of friends, I was like, oh, okay, so um how do I do this?
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:02.720
You know, yeah.
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:04.640
How does this work?
00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:13.039
And and and understanding it one, accepting it also, I think the acceptance side of it took a really long time.
00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:14.400
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:16.000
And and do you know what, Liz?
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:24.720
I I've got to tell you, I think it's only recently where Amani has taught me quite a valuable lesson.
00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:31.920
And I remember one time watching her, I can't remember, she was doing some sort of nonsense, but she was having an absolute lovely time.
00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:32.799
She was laughing.
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:38.960
She's got this thing where she likes to do that, this weird breakdancing thing on shiny surfaces, like in a shopping mall.
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:48.160
She's having an absolute like blast and like rolling around on the floor and doing all this crazy stuff, and people are walking past laughing at her, she's laughing at them.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:49.599
And do you know what?
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:57.119
It was like a light bulb moment, and I I remember thinking to myself, just leave her, let her be who she is.
00:23:57.279 --> 00:23:58.240
She's content.
00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:02.240
No, stop trying to make her better.
00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:03.440
Does that make sense?
00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:11.920
Stop trying to like invest all of this time and effort, therapy after therapy, and you know, we've got to get her to do this.
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:19.440
And and do you know the thing is that thing that I admire about her the most is that she is happy and content with who she is.
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:21.599
She's not trying to be anybody else.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:36.240
She's not I I don't even know if she understands that she's at a disadvantage, but when she sees kids doing certain things, like you know, say climbing up a climbing frame, for example, and she can't do it, she gives it a try.
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:38.640
She gives it a try and she does it in her own way.
00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:44.960
So she interprets certain things that she's not physically able to do, and she does it in her own way.
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:46.799
She's happy with that, you know?
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:50.000
And I just thought, I wish I could be like that.
00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:53.920
Because how many of us, how many of us go through life wanting more?
00:24:54.079 --> 00:25:11.200
You know, we we need to do better in this, or we've got to be, I don't know, better at work and we need promotions and you know, we want to go on a better holiday next year, or whatever it is, you're always chasing something rather than sitting back and saying, you know what, I'm okay, you know, I'm not watching the other person, I don't really care what they have.
00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:19.440
I am happy and content in who I am because it is such a unique trait to have.
00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:20.000
Yeah.
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:21.359
She's taught me that.
00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:22.480
Mum, I'm all right.
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:28.880
You know, yeah, you can throw the therapies at me, it's all good, but I'm actually doing okay, and I'm I'm happy to play with other kids.
00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:33.359
Yeah, I might not be able to do what they're doing, but I'm still involved, and that's enough for me.
00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:34.000
You know?
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:37.359
Big lesson that I learned, and I've only just recently learned that.
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:47.759
It's funny, isn't it how we learn so much from our kids, and often I think you know, those kids that have the additional needs, like you know, with my son or with you know your daughter, is that we do learn a lot from them.
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:59.759
Um and I think we we miss that sometimes, I think, and being able to, like you say, that kind of the acceptance of I don't have to make my child like everybody else and fit the norms.
00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:04.319
If anyone talks to me about the norms, um actually whose norms?
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:05.839
You know, they're not our norms.
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:09.279
So let us be us and do it at our speed and in our way.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:21.519
And whether that means, you know, your child being in a mainstream school or whether you feel that actually your child is better off suited in, you know, a a a special special needs school, that wherever fits best for your kids.
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:27.119
And I think we know in our gut, don't we as parents, their best is for our kids.
00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:33.440
And sometimes we we struggle to to to trust that feeling because people tell us it's not what we should be feeling.
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:34.880
Oh no, absolutely.
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:44.079
I mean, you talking about schools, I mean I was everyone said to me she needs to go to a main, I mean, professionals, educational people, it was all like, yeah, get put her in because she needs a special school.
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:44.640
Yeah.
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:53.920
Um, and I saw a few special schools and they were fantastic, but it I just did I thought I don't think she she's gonna I don't see the advantage of it, right?
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:58.000
And then I went into one particular mainstream school that she's in now.
00:26:58.160 --> 00:26:58.400
Yeah.
00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:00.079
I just walked in, I got that feeling.
00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:06.400
It's such a small school, it's a one-form entry school, it's really flat, so she can move around in it.
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:12.240
And you know, the kids were really politely like they'd open the door and they'd, you know, please and thank you, and how are you?
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:15.920
And I was like, I really I just got a nice vibe from it.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:18.640
And I have to work really hard to get her in there.
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:27.519
I mean, you know, and and it may be that at some point she will benefit from a special special school, and that's why I always say to people, do what you think is right at the time.
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.799
Because right now, I felt that was right for her.
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:35.440
It may be in five years' time that it may be something different, and that and that's okay.
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:37.200
And it's the environment, isn't it?
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:45.200
I think when you go in, the environment is what makes the difference, and it can be the best special school in the world, but actually the environment is not right for your kid.
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:54.880
And there's a mainstream that, like you say, is just perfect, everything's on one level, it's small, it's it it works for her right now in this moment, and that's all we can do, isn't it?
00:27:54.960 --> 00:27:59.599
Is make those decisions and go with our gut when it feels right in that moment with what we know.
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:00.640
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:04.000
And then we and if we need to change, we change and we move directionally.
00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:07.039
I think we stress about that as parents a lot.
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:13.759
I think I mean I'm I know I'm guilty of it, you know, thinking, oh gosh, I'm gonna make a decision, it's gotta it's gotta last, you know, for years.
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:15.279
It's gotta be the right decision.
00:28:15.519 --> 00:28:17.200
It's gotta be the right decision.
00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:22.400
Um and then I thought, well, actually, no, it's just gotta be the right decision for right now, hasn't it?
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:24.319
Yeah, you know, which is like any decision.
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:29.680
I mean, I look back on it, I thought, well, people don't get married with the intention of getting divorced in ten years' time, really.
00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:34.799
So, you know, you make that decision because that's what you think is right at the time.
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:38.960
And if your circumstances change or your situation changes, so what?
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:45.519
It's yeah, yeah, it's I'm trying to take all of the unnecessary stress out of it because I think we've got enough stress, yeah.
00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:46.880
Absolutely.
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:50.720
Wherever you can kind of lessen some of that stress, it makes such a difference, doesn't it?
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:51.440
100%.
00:28:52.240 --> 00:29:06.720
I think that what that leads me into is is talking about you know what came out of this for you is for you and presume for you and your and your family, actually, you know, for all of you, is talking about Moo Moo and Friends and the creation of that.
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:11.279
So you've given us a kind of a bit of a story about where and how that got you there.
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:13.279
But what is Moo Moo and Friends, Sarah?
00:29:13.359 --> 00:29:14.240
What's it all about?
00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:15.440
Moo Moo and Friends.
00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:17.279
Well, I've got my books here just so that you can see.
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:18.400
Oh nice, yeah.
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:20.160
So well, I'm not sure if you can see that.
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:21.759
So that's Moo Moo and Friends.
00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:23.519
I've got I've written four so far.
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:28.079
That's episode one, which is basically an introduction to the characters.
00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:37.920
That's episode two, which is a sports day in Moo Moo School, um, and that's episode three, which where they have an adventure on an aeroplane.
00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:43.680
And episode four, which is not released yet, is about an adventure they have in a museum.
00:29:43.759 --> 00:29:47.519
Um, and it this one features uh a boy with a vision impairment.
00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:50.960
Episode three, you've got a character who's autistic.
00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:55.599
In episode two, there's a little girl who's got cerebral palsy, she's the wheelchair user.
00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:03.359
Um so Moo Moo and Friends, in short, is the first children's character and brand with a disability.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:13.759
And what I'm trying to do is launch and get out into the mainstream children's entertainment um sphere, if you like.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:32.000
Um, and I am hoping to translate my stories into an animated series and eventually have consumer products so that I want to compete with the big brands that are out there, such as your Pepper Pig, Blue E, Paw Patrol, all of that sort of stuff.
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:38.319
Um and Moo Moo and Friends does quite a few things.
00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:44.160
So I felt that entertainment is very fantasy.
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:50.960
It's kind of like really sort of out there fantasy, it's not much education in it.
00:30:51.119 --> 00:30:55.839
So I wanted to do kind of combine the two of them.
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:09.759
So our stories, even though we've got fantasy characters like a like a dog and a and a cat, and you know, they they they speak, and Moo Moo's got superpowers, and there's that fantasy element of it, children do actually learn things.
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:16.640
So they learn about different countries, so they go around the world, they obviously learn about other children with disabilities.
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:26.160
Um, in the way that I write the stories, I have there's a couple of lines in there that are thrown in for the adults, just to amuse the adults as they're reading along.
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:26.559
Okay.
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:31.920
You know, like I you know, sometimes when you're watching a Disney film and you think that's like that line's for me, it's not for the kids.
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:35.440
Yeah, it's gone all over the kids' head, but the parents going, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:36.000
I see you.
00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:38.880
Exactly, just to keep the adults engaged.
00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:46.160
A couple of the words I threw, I throw a couple of challenging words in there because I want the child to ask the adult what does that mean?
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:49.519
So there's a few learning curves in there as well.
00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:58.799
Um, and in series one, which I've almost finished, so uh series one is basically the go around the world.
00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:10.319
So first episode, um, you meet Moo Mu, Harvey, and Enzo, and then you kind of learn a little bit about their superpowers, and Moo Moo's lost something, and they're trying to help her to find it.
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:14.319
Enzo is a magical cat that can see into the future.
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:24.400
He has a magic fountain, and this actually exists in real life that he drinks from, and it's a real the actual illustrations of the book are from the pictures of his actual water fountain.
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:33.440
Along with Moo Moo, Enzo, and Harvey, they're actually they've actually had the images of them as real beings adapted um into illustrations.
00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:35.119
Clever, so they are, very similar.
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:36.400
That's really clever.
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:39.920
So they're actually the real life, what they look like, but in a cartoon type.
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:41.200
Brilliant.
00:32:41.440 --> 00:32:41.920
Absolutely.
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:47.200
Um, and then whenever Enzo puts his head into the magic water fountain, he can see into the future.
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:52.720
Um, and Harvey's a supersonic cat, he can travel at the speed of light.
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:58.000
Um, so in that first story, Moo Moo loses the book that her friend Ava had given her.
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:03.200
And basically, what happens is Enzo uses the magic water fountain and tells her where it is.
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:07.119
So then they're able to retrieve the book because they send Harvey to go and get it.
00:33:07.279 --> 00:33:10.880
And then each story follows on from the next from the previous one.
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:24.000
And then in story two, um, Moo Moo's going back into school to return the book to Ava, um, who is her friend who's a wheelchair user and has got cerebral palsy, and it happens to be their sports day.
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:41.440
Um, and then in each of the stories, the the character Harvey's always dressed up in a bit of an unusual costume because in real life, my friend who who's the owner of Harvey or was the owner of Harvey, um, used to like dress him up in really flamboyant outfits.
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:44.799
So I thought it'd be quite funny to throw it in into the story.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:55.119
So, anyway, in in this particular one, he's wearing a policeman's uniform because he's trying to police the sports day, you know, chaos that's about to come.
00:33:55.599 --> 00:34:03.519
Um, and so in in this story, Ava, because she's a wheelchair user, nobody wants her in their team.
00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:14.559
Um, and she ends up being on a team with Ricky, who's like this kind of sports jock, you know, he's really competitive, um, but he's told everyone she's not allowed to participate.
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:24.159
So Moo Moo, who has a very nice captain of her team, has allowed her to run in the sprint, even though Moo Mu's not very good at running.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:28.960
Um, but her captain, Adam, has said, no, you you like running, so you can do this race.
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:34.639
So, anyway, they're all on the race, it's the last race of the day, um, and and off they go.
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:48.480
And then unfortunately, Ricky has a bit of an accident during the race and he hurts himself quite badly, has to go into hospital, and he ends up basically fracturing his legs, and he's got to use crutches and a wheelchair to get around.
00:34:48.719 --> 00:35:00.639
So he now feels very bad about the way he's mistreated Ava, and that story is about how he apologizes to Ava and kind of understands her position.
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:04.960
Um, so that's the kind of like message behind that story.
00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:28.159
And then in story three, the guys are on holiday, so Harvey's in a sort of like Hawaiian kind of shirt and shorts, and like he's all ready to go on his holiday, and they are travelling on an aeroplane, and there's a little boy who's um perceived as misbehaving, and all the adults on the plane think he's very naughty.
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:38.719
And anyway, basically turns out he's autistic, he's very uncomfortable with all the noises, he's not been on a plane before, and he keeps running up and down the aisle and he hides under the seat.
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:49.760
And that story is about Moo Moo and her friends relaxing him and giving him his favourite toys, uh, and basically teaching the other people on the plane how to do the same sort of thing.
00:35:49.840 --> 00:36:04.320
Because when I was, because I wanted to obviously do a story about autism, but the main scenario when I was doing research on it was how families absolutely hate plane journeys because of this reason.
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:17.760
So I thought that would be good to use that, and then in the fourth story, so so on that story they they fly into Dubai, that's the destination, because Moo Moo's dad is actually from Dubai, so I thought I'd bring that in anyway.
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:32.000
Um, and then in the fourth story, they they go and visit a museum which is called the Museum of the Future, which actually exists in Dubai, it's it's real, very futuristic, state-of-the-art, wow museum, got this fantastic children's world in it.
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:37.920
And Harvey in that story is wearing a scientist cloak, so he looks a little bit like Enzo.
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:47.440
Um, and what happens is they're in that in the museum, and there's a little boy who knocks Moo Mu's foot with a stick.
00:36:47.679 --> 00:36:55.119
Turns out it's actually a cane, he's got a vision impairment, and they become friends and they start talking, and he's from Dubai.
00:36:55.360 --> 00:37:03.360
Um, but all of a sudden there's a blackout in the museum, all the lights go out, there's an electric outage, and they get very, very scared.
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:07.119
And then the little boy says, It's okay, I know my way around.
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:11.519
Um, and you know, you might you might be scared, but it's the same for me.
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:23.920
I'm gonna use my other senses, and that's what he does, and he teaches them about the other senses and gets them out, and then he invites them around to his house for dinner, very, you know, again, Arabic hospitality, so you get to learn about that.
00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:30.800
And then in the fifth story, which I've just finished writing, we're in the process of the production now.
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:34.559
Um is it's actually one of my favourite ones.
00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:42.960
Is that they go into Los Angeles, so they're still on holiday, they're flying to LA, and they meet a little girl with Down syndrome.
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:49.119
Um, and so Moo Moo's very excited because she doesn't get to see many people with Down syndrome.
00:37:49.360 --> 00:38:01.440
So she keeps staring at her, and anyway, in the end, she goes over and they they get talking, and then the girl said, Oh, you've come at a really good time because it's the Oscars night tonight, and we're gonna go to the Oscars and do some star spotting.
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:20.480
So then they all go along, and uh, I don't want to say too much because I because it's yeah yeah, but basically they're at the Oscars, um, and long story short, Moo Moo ends up announcing the winner of the best actress, um, who happens to be a real actress with Down syndrome.
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:26.800
And then in story six, which I'm in the process of writing now, they will be going to Japan.
00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:30.800
Um, and I want to talk about things like the cherry blossom, bit of Japanese culture.
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:30.960
Yeah.
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:33.360
And then that will be the end of series one.
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:42.400
And then series two, which I'm planning on starting probably the end of this year, is gonna be themed around time travel.
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:55.519
So the concept of that is that they're gonna discover a time machine, and then I'm gonna take them around different sort of eras in in history, because I want them all I want children to also know that disabilities have always existed.
00:38:55.760 --> 00:39:04.320
Um, so people with you know with disabilities have always been around, um, and then obviously teach them a bit about history and and you know that kind of stuff.
00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:06.480
So that's what I'm hoping to do.
00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:08.719
This sounds amazing, amazing.
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:20.880
If I went back to you, Sara, when you were in your younger days and said to you, a bit further down the line, you're gonna have be writing children's books like you are, would you have believed me?
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:22.400
Absolutely not.
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:34.159
I mean, honestly, I don't have I don't see myself as a particular particularly creative person, or it's not something that I've always been really interested in.
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:42.320
Um and and people kind of like, you know, I don't know, take take it as you will, but I do think this is like a call-in for me.
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:43.840
I genuinely do.
00:39:43.920 --> 00:39:52.000
I I feel like this is just something that it's almost like God said to me, right, you know, we know you've got business acumen, okay?
00:39:52.159 --> 00:40:00.480
Why don't you take your business acumen, put it into something constructive, and then let's see if you can change some mindsets around the world.
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:04.000
And that's just how I I genuinely feel that's what's happened.
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:10.079
Because all of all the ideas and everything that have come to me, it's so spontaneous.
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:14.400
Um, and as soon as it comes, I just start writing it down, you know?
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:14.639
Yeah.
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:24.800
And I've created something that the people that I've shared it with and people that have bought the stories and read the books and you know are involved in what I do, they all seem to love it.
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:35.039
And I'll tell you something our biggest community is children that are typically developing, and that is my aim.
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:38.239
Well, obviously, because that's the majority of children, right?
00:40:38.719 --> 00:40:50.960
But when I think about a typically developing child having a role model in Moo Moo who is a child with Down syndrome, it just delights me.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:52.559
And you know, I celebrate it.
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:55.679
So if I can show you, for example, that's the cover of story four.
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:58.159
I don't want sure if you oh if you can see that you can.
00:40:58.719 --> 00:40:58.800
Yeah.
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:05.679
She's got a yellow and blue hair clip, and she's got yellow and blue shoelaces.
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:06.159
Yes.
00:41:06.320 --> 00:41:08.800
So that's that's the Down syndrome ribbon.
00:41:09.199 --> 00:41:12.079
So we celebrate that all the time.
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:16.000
Um, and she wears a WAB t-shirt, so I've got my Wab Wab t-shirt on.
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:16.159
Yes.
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:18.079
We all belong.
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:27.199
Um so children are aware of that, and you know, it it they don't think about it.
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:31.760
So, because the thing is in my stories, Liz, I don't talk about disabilities.
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:44.079
I don't go into it and say, This boy's autistic, this is what it means to be autistic, these are the you know, the signs of someone who's autistic, or this girl's got cerebral palsry, cerebral palsy, sorry, and this is what it means.
00:41:44.159 --> 00:41:45.280
I don't I just mention it.
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:50.159
Oh, and by the way, Ava's got cerebral, she's a wheelchair user, she uses it every day in her life.
00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:51.760
And there's a reason why I do that.
00:41:52.000 --> 00:41:57.039
One, because it's not a book about disabilities, okay?
00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:01.599
I think there's way too many of those out there, and they're normally aimed at.
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:04.559
This is the thing that I find quite unusual.
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:10.480
Books about disabilities are normally aimed at an audience that have that disability, if that makes sense.
00:42:10.719 --> 00:42:11.760
Yes, yeah, yeah.
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:22.000
As opposed to other people learning about it, but also I want the child and the parent or whoever's having that reading session to ask each other questions.
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:37.440
And so on one of the focus groups that we had for episode two, um, the biggest like feedback subject that I had was related to people not knowing what cerebral palsy was.
00:42:37.519 --> 00:42:40.320
So obviously the child would say, What's cerebral palsy?
00:42:40.480 --> 00:42:42.639
And then the adult will say, I don't really know.
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:43.920
Let's go and find out.
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:44.400
Yeah.
00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:46.800
You know, and that was something that they done together.
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:49.199
And that was it was so good to know that.
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:55.039
Because I'm gonna be honest with you, if somebody asked me five, six years ago, I probably wouldn't know.
00:42:55.599 --> 00:42:55.920
You know?
00:42:56.239 --> 00:42:58.960
Well, there's something in there as well that shifts it, doesn't it?
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:06.480
That it always I think it's always historically been if you've got some sort of form of additional need, it becomes your responsibility.
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:09.280
You have to change in some way to fit in.
00:43:09.519 --> 00:43:17.760
But actually, what you're doing is shifting that and going, well, we are who we are, and actually you guys out there need to learn a little bit more about us.
00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:18.559
Absolutely.
00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:28.880
And how actually we just make up part of the world, and you know, it doesn't have to be about us having to fit in all the time and change and mask and all that kind of stuff.
00:43:28.960 --> 00:43:45.440
That we just get to be who we are, and we are part of the wide breadth of differences that there are, and you know, that there should be differences between all of us, and and you know, we are what forms society, yes.
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:54.079
And we are out there, and like you said, uh that then that's the reason why I don't delve into it because I want people to go out there and find out for themselves what it means.
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:59.840
And I remember I'd done a I done a pop-up shop last not summer, the summer gone, the year before.
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:04.079
In Peter Jones in Sloan Square, and it was so lovely.
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:25.519
Like every time I was talking about stories, I I remember one child said, 'Oh, I've got a cousin who's got a cerebral,' and then we're talking about book three, you know, oh, you know, oh, my brother's autistic, or you know, it's it's it's out there, you know, resonating with someone because we're so much more aware of it now, and and it's and it's okay to talk about it.
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:31.840
But the weird thing is, it's not out there in children's mainstream entertainment, you know.
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:40.320
We've progressed in education in terms of schools, um, in terms of the wider society, health professionals, all of that sort of stuff.
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:43.679
Um employment, all of that kind of stuff.
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:49.760
You know, we're moving forward, but the weird thing is, it's not really out there in in mainstream entertainment.
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:53.119
Um, and that's really what I'm I'm hoping to do.
00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:56.320
Um, and it's it's not easy, it's hard work.
00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:57.280
I'm on my own.
00:44:57.360 --> 00:44:59.199
I'm literally a one-man band.
00:44:59.840 --> 00:45:05.360
Um I'm a full-time carer for Amani, and that that's really time consuming, as you, as you know.
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:14.480
It's all the kind of I mean, apart from the fact that you're always physically exhausted, there's just like loads and loads of admin stuff that goes with it, as you as you know.
00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:15.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:45:17.119 --> 00:45:26.400
Um but I'm really hoping that I can make this work because I just know it all change people's lives.
00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:29.920
You know, it it will just have such a positive impact.
00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:51.679
Um and it it's just gonna change perceptions, change mindsets for the future, you know, for the f so that children like Amani and children like her and all of the other kids that fit into this very kind of wide spectrum of being different um won't be, you know.
00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:52.880
They they they won't be.
00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:54.159
They'll just be who they are.
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:58.000
This is who I am, and they'll just be, you know, unremarkable.
00:45:58.079 --> 00:45:59.360
And that's what I'm trying to do.
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:00.239
Yeah.
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:18.480
So I I think, you know, listening to your story, one shows again, like how I started the episode, is the adaptability that we have as parents, and as human beings, probably actually, that actually we adapt and you found a way to spread a wider message.
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:38.559
Also work, because we know that working, you know, as a parent in an additional needs family is really hard when we've got the additional needs that our kids have, and you've shown that you can do that, and it's all wrapped up in this amazing project around movement friends, which I I mean, I love to hear you know the the way that you've talked about it and structured it, and it sounds amazing.
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:39.280
Thank you.
00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:47.119
What I will do is make sure that in the show notes there is where everyone can find you, they can find you on social media, and obviously, where can they buy the books from, Sarah?
00:46:47.199 --> 00:46:48.800
Is it general places?
00:46:49.119 --> 00:46:50.400
Pretty much everywhere.
00:46:50.639 --> 00:46:51.039
Yeah.
00:46:51.679 --> 00:47:00.880
I mean, obviously on our website, Moomiandfriends.com, um, in the US, places like Barnes and Noble, Target, I mean Amazon worldwide, obviously.
00:47:01.360 --> 00:47:05.679
Um I think I'm on 39,000 online retailers.
00:47:05.840 --> 00:47:07.840
So you'll you'll find you.
00:47:08.079 --> 00:47:09.840
Yeah, you can find a find you.
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:10.079
Yeah.
00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:16.400
But if you want personalized signed copies, then that that's only available on our website.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:17.119
Lovely.
00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:18.400
Okay, and they can do that.
00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:21.039
So you can find Sara on all those places.
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:21.840
Reach out to her.
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:23.360
I definitely recommend following her.
00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:29.519
And you know, if the books speak to you and uh, you know, they sound like they're gonna be a really great resource.
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:32.719
And I'm I'm I'm waiting to see them as animation now.
00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:34.079
Sarah, I'm keeping an eye out.
00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:36.719
So when they get there, I need to know about it.
00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:40.159
Um I wish you loads it, I love it.
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:42.159
I wish you loads and loads of luck.
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:44.719
Um, and thank you ever so much for coming on to the podcast.
00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:46.320
I really appreciate your time today.
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:47.599
Absolute pleasure.
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:48.800
Thanks for having me.
00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:51.280
Thanks, Sarah.