WEBVTT
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Welcome everyone to the Gov Navigator Show, a government-focused program that won't make you seasick.
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We're the Gov Navigators.
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I'm Robert Chad.
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And I'm Adam Hughes.
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We hope to enlighten and enliven your week with news and insightful entertaining guests, all on the topic of government management.
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Enjoy today's episode of Gov Navigators brought to you by the creative geniuses behind the award-winning podcast Fedhead.
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So Robert, I'm surprised you've been at work this week with the passing of the great Dolly Parton.
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I mean, it was a significant blow, especially since we weren't prepared.
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I mean, she was going pretty strong.
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So I was surprised to see it happen.
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Very sad.
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Got to listen to a lot of Dolly Parton this week, though.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it's everywhere now.
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Which is not a bad thing.
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Flags are half mast.
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So, you know, it's funny too, you say you're surprised because Kate and I were talking about this last night, and she was 80.
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Right.
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80's old.
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I think we have to reclassify.
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I know we don't think that way because 95% of Congress is over 80, but 80 is old.
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You should just stop doing things when you're over 80.
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Stop running for Congress.
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Stop doing residencies in Vegas.
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Like she didn't need more money.
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Can we reflect on the fact that Dolly Parton is dead and Mitch McConnell is alive?
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Yes, we can't replace enough.
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Good lord.
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All right.
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Let's get back to the topic at hand.
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Yeah.
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I've noticed something ironic that a fellow at Stanford inventoried lines of legislative or regulatory text that was part of the Washington Post's red tape newsletter.
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I don't know if you received that.
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There's a number of initiatives to highlight how we need to get government out of the way.
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But I also notice I think it must have been Task Force Week in the government.
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Department of Treasury announced the Quantum Readiness Task Force.
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DOJ announced the National Fraud Detection Center.
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In addition to the Vice President's fraud task force.
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That's right.
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I'm not sure that throwing bureaucratic organizations into these problems is going to address the issue the way we want it to.
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Is that sacrilege to our?
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No, not at all.
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I mean, I feel like you're channeling Tom Coburn.
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I think we need him back.
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If they have some tiger teams that are part of those task forces, then they're probably going to get something done.
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Yeah.
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Unfortunately, he's at the Dolly Parton concert right now.
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And the DOJ thing is funny because the DOJ already has a office that investigates and prosecutes fraud.
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It already exists.
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What why are we so anyway?
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But we need another task force.
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A fair point to make is that we still have a hell of a lot of fraud.
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So we need to be doing something different.
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I'm not sure task forces are the right answer, but we need to be doing something.
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Well, speaking of trying to prevent fraud, OMB has, I don't think they've released it yet, but there's a draft memo that has been leaked that is attempting to force is a strong word.
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Strongly recommend that agencies use login.gov as an option for people to log in for citizen-facing services.
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A lot of posts about this.
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There's a FedScoop article about it.
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I feel like I've seen this movie before.
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I feel like this has been tried.
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Me too.
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OMB forcing agencies to use a shared service has been less successful than it should be.
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I mean, OMB's got a pretty big hammer to drive people to do this.
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Let's see if this one works.
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It's true.
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And I believe Jeremy Grant, one of the godfathers of identity in the federal space, if you don't know Jeremy, had an opinion piece that said, okay, that's fine, that's all well and good, but how are they going to enforce it?
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And there certainly are ways, depending how hard our OMB wants to go.
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But what typically happens is they say, hey, GSA, you run this service.
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Why don't you make agencies do it?
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And then they don't focus on it anymore.
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And we all know how that story ends.
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So login is way better than it used to be.
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I think we need to make sure we point that out.
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I think when OMB and the government tried this in the past, login wasn't really a good service.
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I think if people would qualify it as a good service now that people should be using, both agencies and citizens to log into accounts.
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So we'll have to see how hard they want to go and push this.
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Can we talk about something more exciting?
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Yes, please.
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The Chief Data Officers Council released the DCAT US version 3.0 schema implementation guide.
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Oh my god, why didn't we lead with this?
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The law mandates federal agencies develop and maintain comprehensive data inventories.
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Agencies must submit standardized metadata of agency data assets to the federal data catalog, and those must conform with this schema.
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So this is the path to transparency that you and I have been plowing for many decades.
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Many decades.
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And I'm mostly saying these comments tongue-in-cheek, but we've talked a lot on the show and heard from guests on the show talking about how if your data is not ready, AI is not going to work.
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And this is one of the things that agencies can do to make sure that their data is ready.
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Yeah, it is sort of like not to show my Texas too much, but it's like this is the drill.
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This is the rig that will unlock the gold that is in the nation's data.
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How about that?
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That's a beautiful metaphor.
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I've never felt like you've held back your Texas, by the way.
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So if you feel like you're holding it back, I think we need to have a separate conversation about this.
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It might be a good idea to reminisce with somebody behind this open data law.
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Oh, this is a great idea.
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Let's do that.
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This episode is brought to you by Alicor, which powers the technology behind public sector lending grant and capital deployment programs, helping agencies modernize operations, improve oversight, and better serve the public.
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And you can learn even more at Alicor.com.
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Thanks to our friends at Alicor for sponsoring this episode of the Gov Navigator Show.
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So I think, Adam, I was the first to stumble upon the Wall Street Journal article about our friend Christina Ho.
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You know, this is another one of your outrageous claims, but I actually think this one might be true.
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So I texted you about it immediately.
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Okay.
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And she's always caused trouble.
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As long as I've known her.
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Christina Ho, star of the Wall Street Journal, stirring it up wherever you go.
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Welcome to the program.
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Well, thank you, Robert.
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I would take that as a compliment.
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Yeah.
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Because I think people like to hear an irony story and troublemaker sell stories.
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Good trouble, though, as they say.
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Tell our listeners a little bit more about your background and where you've landed right now.
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Yeah, so I was at the PCOB as a board member for about four plus years until the end of January this year.
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So I was regulating the public company auditor.
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And a few months later, I joined a venture-backed company called Oath Verified.
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And the vision is to build AI native audit and also a robust verification platform that can verify all the financial information.
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We also since then became a licensed CPA firm.
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So we have a CPA entity plus the verification platform.
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And I'm super excited about what I'm doing there.
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I have been there for four months and I've learned more in the past four months than my past four years, which I'm happy to talk more about.
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Well, yeah, let's jump in.
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Tell us why did you decide to go there and what do you think the potential is?
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Because I feel like obviously this is in your wheelhouse with what you've done in your career, but you've also been talking about this for a long time, that we need more automation.
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We need to be able to do this faster and better in audit, but across finishing management.
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So tell us why you wanted to go there and what you think the potential is.
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Yes.
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So when I was on a board, I was frequently talking about how technology can help us promote higher audit quality, help us reimagine auditing.
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But it's always easier to talk.
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And that was my job.
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But after I left, and then when I came across and met Lucas Ward, who is a serial entrepreneur who's the CEO, I realized here's my opportunity to build.
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And I see the vision because historically we have always been in this space that is human checking human work.
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And now with all the information being generated by machine, we need to build a new environment where machine is checking machine.
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And what that means, we need to connect to the data sources.
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We no longer need to sample.
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Sample is defensible when testing the entire population was not possible.
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But now with machine, you can test everything very efficiently.
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And then we also have to do this continuously.
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And I really felt like our vision aligned.
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And I saw this as an opportunity to really help increase the trust we have in the financial information and also in the overall society as well.
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So I decided that even though most people join startup when they're in their 20s at the beginning of their career, and I'm doing that, you know, you decided to do it when you're in your 30s.
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I understand.
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It makes sense.
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But anyway, I feel very privileged and blessed to have this opportunity to build.
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And because now I am actually working with the AI every day, and I am actually designing the methodology from the ground up to actually a AI native.
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Like everything I said during my time at PCOB when I was talking, I am more convinced than ever that it is possible that technology is really good and it will definitely make audit faster, better, and cheaper.
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They don't normally use to go together or these three words, but in this case, they do go together because it really is anchored on the same thing by leveraging technology.
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But of course, you still have to have human accountability.
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So we are operating in this human-led AI power environment.
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So talk a little bit more about how you're viewed by other independent public accounting firms in the space.
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The industry's going through massive disruption.
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Firms, you know, our former firm, Grant Thornton, KPMG, have left federal business altogether.
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But commercial audit likewise is going through big change.
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How are you viewed by your competitors?
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If you have any insight into that.
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Yeah, I'm sure the big firms probably felt like, oh, they're just small and might dismiss us.
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But it's not just us.
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What I'm seeing in this industry, there's almost like a new audit tech startup every month.
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And I also know the venture calculus community seem to be very interested in investing in these startups because this is a legacy industry, if you will.
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It's regulated and it is also like painful.
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People don't like it.
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So it's really ripe for disruption.
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So there is a lot of interest in investing in figuring out how to really transform and reimagine this space.
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So I'm super excited.
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I I'm happy that there are other people doing it because I think it basically legitimized the fact that this is really needed.
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About how a lot of the focus of what you're building is on audit, but it's not just audit.
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So tell us a little bit more about that and what the applications for this technology, both for audit, but are also for things that are larger than that.
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Yeah.
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So our vision is we're creating a whole new category.
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We call it independent verification.
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I think the independent aspect is really important because the fact that you always have to have a third party verifying someone who actually generates the information to do that concept, I think is really important and it's enduring.
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But the mechanism needs to be changed.
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So we believe that audit is one form of verification.
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Audit historically has been verifying, providing reasonable assurance on financial information, but that's also based on a sampling basis.
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There are so many other so many areas, like in the federal space, you can see, for example, improper payments and what information people are generating that is used for other types of even budget information and things like that currently doesn't really get audited, needs to be verified so that people can trust the data.
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And federal government also has so much data.
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So being able to have machine check the information generated by the machine that are being used either to make really important decisions or publish to the public, I think is really key.
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And that includes so many space.
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I think about Medicaid, I think about an employment insurance.
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I mean, all these space grant and also with the proliferation of the use of AI, how do we know that the information that are being generated by AI is correct?
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I think that's another form of verification that I think will probably have more demand in the future.
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A friend of mine's over at HHS launched an initiative to analyze single audit act reports.
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These are the audits of grantees of a certain size.
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And he's sort of marveling at the fact that these have been in file cabinets or PDF files for decades, and people really couldn't farm those for insights.
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And now he's looking at them and saying, Well, my God, of course there's fraud here.
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These auditors have been applying these controls forever.
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Do you see more and more of that insights into areas that heretofore went buried?
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Yes, because in the past, because these single audit reports, they're unstructured data for all the grant recipients that receive a certain amount of federal dollar.
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They go through these audits, and normally it's a nonprofit where they have a financial statement audit, and then at the same time they get a single audit done.
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So it has a little bit more compliance specific for the federal regulations.
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And so those reports are often unstructured.
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So now with AI, you can analyze all that information and then get insights because you can see trends, you can identify based on a specific grantee or based on a specific firm.
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So I definitely think that that would be a very rich data source.
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I don't want to get out over my skis on this because you you both know I'm not a technical expert in this.
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Help us understand a little bit how what you're doing in the audit space can be applied to government auditing, which is, as you've already stated, and most people know highly regulated.
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Is there low-hanging fruit to be able to kind of start with?
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Is it going to require a regulatory change?
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Tell us some of the kind of challenges that applying new technologies like what you're building to government auditing would entail.
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Yeah.
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So I actually read M2530.
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Oh my gosh, the memo number.
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We need like a bell every time a guest says a memo number.
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I think the title says Ensuring Accountability, How We Oversee, Audit, and Improve.
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So it's from OMB.
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And I think the summary of that, there are a couple takeaways from that memo.
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One is that the federal audit is not working, basically, because you can receive clean opinion and you still have improper payments, still you have all these things.
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And of course, there are all kinds of different reasons for that.
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I used to be a federal executive, so I understand these environments.
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And then they talk about changing the way that agencies prepare financial statements and make it one year and things like that.
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:59.759
So I would say that I agree that auditing is not working and it's not just federal.
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I would say it's the same thing on the commercial side.
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Is that basically audit has become a compliance exercise, it no longer provides the value that it's intended initially for.
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So the one key reason, I think, is that it's still sample.
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I think that this would be a game changer if the auditors are testing 100% because technology makes it possible.
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Yeah.
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You can do 100% in the time you used to do a sample.
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Yes.
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Or maybe faster, right?
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Yeah.
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You know, because when you think about federal, like people think, oh, it's so so big.
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Yes, it's a lot of transaction, but the machine can handle that.
00:18:46.880 --> 00:19:00.559
And if you can do that one audit, and even if it's one year, you do full scope, you not only can have your opinion, but you can also test all the improper payment.
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Like you can have a much better sense, even if you just test one full year of payment for every agency, you're gonna be able to that I would call a form of verification that the federal government would get so much more value from versus just a compliance exercise.
00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:23.359
Or these reports that sit on shelves and nobody ever looks at.
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Yes.
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It's not it's not operational.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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In the commercial side, the same.
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When I was on the PCOB board, I mean, I cannot tell you, like for me, because this is all public accounting, it's like a billion dollar industry.
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It's just I can't think of any other product that people pay that much money for and say they don't know what the value is, other than that it's something they have to do.
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Well, we don't care anymore because we're not a great authority.
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Is this also gonna accelerate remediation, Christina?
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I mean, I know that's a stupid question because it ought to, but do you see the concomitant response on the auditee side?
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:34.559
Yes, I actually think when you're testing 100% transaction, how unless you want to specifically know tests all your control, you don't need to test control in order to be able to reach that audit opinion when you do 100% testing.
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:36.559
So that's one piece.
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:44.079
And then I think if you still test the control, it will make the internal control actually more concrete.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:51.359
Because a lot of time the internal control testing is like, did you approve this?
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.759
Did you have segregation duty?
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:55.200
You know, things like that.
00:20:55.359 --> 00:21:06.000
And it's not very precise, it's very subjective, and also you can't really quantify, like let's say your control did have a control deficiency.
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:08.640
Normally it's like a step that you didn't do.
00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:12.319
But what impact does that really have?
00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:22.720
So I think if you do 100% testing, then you have a much more concrete understanding of the impact of your control deficiency.
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:31.359
Okay, Christy, we are approaching the end of time here, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts about how fast can government implement these sorts of things?
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:35.359
New technology adoption is always a struggle inside or outside of government.
00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:40.559
Do you feel like government has been itching to get this and oh my God, thank God it's here?
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:43.519
Or are there gonna be people who'd be like, that's not gonna work, we can't do that.
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:44.960
That's not how we do things here.
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:49.920
What's your take on the mood from across the federal government and the auditing community?
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:57.039
Yeah, well, I'm sure that there'll be plenty of people who say, no, we can't do this and we don't wanna change.
00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.599
But I look at some of the memo on the auditing.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.319
And then I also know there was a memo on AI adoption.
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:12.160
So there seemed to be, at least from a signal perspective, interest in embracing technology.
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:18.799
I think that based on my review of this memo, maybe it's missing a solution.
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:23.519
There's like identifying these problems, but what's the solution?
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:26.960
And what I'm saying is that this is the solution.
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:43.920
If you can test 100% and connect to the data sources, and even if you just do one year, the government will know a lot more and they will actually be able to concretely reduce impover payment because they'll have the specific.
00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:54.559
What does that actually mean?
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:55.200
Yes.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:59.440
So they will give you concrete things that you can actually fix.
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:08.079
And so I hope that the federal government is open to learning more about this because I know it's happening in the private sector.
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:14.960
And I certainly would really want the federal government to have access to this kind of technology.
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:19.359
Well, if anybody can bring it to them, it's you, Christina.
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:23.200
You're relentless, and we'll be watching.
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:24.559
Well, thank you.
00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:35.920
This is a great opportunity to help fix some of the decade-old problem at the federal government, which I was in the government myself, so I know about these problems very, very well.
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:41.039
But thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my perspectives here.
00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:42.480
You bet, Christina.
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:43.039
It's been great.
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:43.519
Thanks so much.
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:44.240
Thanks a lot.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:45.200
Take care.
00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:46.480
Thank you.
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:51.759
The nicest, by the way.
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:52.559
All right.
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:54.000
So what's going on this week?
00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:58.559
Well, traffic's gonna pick up because uh the house is back.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:00.960
Yeah, but only for four days.
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:02.799
I think did they have a nutty week?
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:04.559
What do we mean only for four days?
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:07.200
Then they recess for a full week for Labor Day.
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.039
You know what this sounds like?
00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:10.880
The Adam Hughes plan.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:15.039
That's right.
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:16.240
They might have a golf trip.
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:16.720
Who knows?
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:17.039
Right?
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:20.000
Every member of Congress is out for a golf trip the week of Labor Day.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:21.039
It's a little peculiar.
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:24.000
I'm not sure why they're coming back and then going out again for a week.
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:27.839
The Senate is out until after Labor Day, which is the typical schedule.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:30.240
But yes, they will be back doing something.
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:32.559
Anything going on in town?
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:34.000
Not really.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:35.839
I have nothing.
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:37.680
We track a lot of events, you know that.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:40.720
We really don't have anything that's big happening next week.
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:42.960
It is the traditional last week of summer.
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:44.160
It'll pick up.
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.680
We've got our Policy Wonk Happy Hour on the 9th.
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:53.440
We do see, which we are hosting for the benefit of our friends at the Senior Executives Association.
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:54.400
Correct.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:25:00.960
If you're a former senior executive or a current senior executive, hang up now and join.
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:05.440
That's not going to be at the exchange, by the way.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:09.200
So please come, even if you didn't get the invite, that's an open happy hour.
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:09.839
We'd love to see you.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.680
And a stacked lineup of speakers for that conference.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:24.160
Yes.
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:25.519
It looks incredibly good.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:27.279
So make sure you check it out.
00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:28.160
All right.
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:29.519
Well, have a great week.
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:30.319
Yep.
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:33.200
Hey, thanks again to our friends at Alicor.
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:36.079
I think we can afford now to go another couple of weeks.
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:40.400
Yeah, the podcast will continue thanks to the lovely people over at Alicor.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:43.200
Make sure you go to Alicor.com and check out what they're doing.
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:47.759
They're working hard every day, they're improving government, and we appreciate them.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:01.279
Thanks for listening to another episode of the Gov Navigator Show, brought to you by GovNavigators.
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:04.240
We sure hope you enjoyed it and learned something in the process.
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:06.000
And didn't get seasick.
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:07.599
Right, of course.
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:14.000
If you want to know more about us and what we're up to, please follow us on social media or visit govnavigators.com.
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:15.039
Ahoy!
00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:13.679
Welcome everyone to the Gov Navigator Show, a government-focused program that won't make you seasick.
00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:15.199
We're the Gov Navigators.
00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:16.239
I'm Robert Chad.
00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:17.519
And I'm Adam Hughes.
00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:23.440
We hope to enlighten and enliven your week with news and insightful entertaining guests, all on the topic of government management.
00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:31.120
Enjoy today's episode of Gov Navigators brought to you by the creative geniuses behind the award-winning podcast Fedhead.
00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:48.799
So Robert, I'm surprised you've been at work this week with the passing of the great Dolly Parton.
00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:54.799
I mean, it was a significant blow, especially since we weren't prepared.
00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:57.679
I mean, she was going pretty strong.
00:00:57.920 --> 00:00:59.439
So I was surprised to see it happen.
00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:00.640
Very sad.
00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:03.520
Got to listen to a lot of Dolly Parton this week, though.
00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:04.000
Yeah.
00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:05.200
Yeah, it's everywhere now.
00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:06.239
Which is not a bad thing.
00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:08.159
Flags are half mast.
00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:14.239
So, you know, it's funny too, you say you're surprised because Kate and I were talking about this last night, and she was 80.
00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:14.879
Right.
00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:16.400
80's old.
00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:17.599
I think we have to reclassify.
00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:23.040
I know we don't think that way because 95% of Congress is over 80, but 80 is old.
00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:25.439
You should just stop doing things when you're over 80.
00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:26.799
Stop running for Congress.
00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:29.519
Stop doing residencies in Vegas.
00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:31.760
Like she didn't need more money.
00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:37.920
Can we reflect on the fact that Dolly Parton is dead and Mitch McConnell is alive?
00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:42.400
Yes, we can't replace enough.
00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:45.760
Good lord.
00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:46.640
All right.
00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:49.040
Let's get back to the topic at hand.
00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:49.359
Yeah.
00:01:49.519 --> 00:02:05.040
I've noticed something ironic that a fellow at Stanford inventoried lines of legislative or regulatory text that was part of the Washington Post's red tape newsletter.
00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:07.359
I don't know if you received that.
00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:12.560
There's a number of initiatives to highlight how we need to get government out of the way.
00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:18.159
But I also notice I think it must have been Task Force Week in the government.
00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:22.240
Department of Treasury announced the Quantum Readiness Task Force.
00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:26.800
DOJ announced the National Fraud Detection Center.
00:02:27.199 --> 00:02:29.919
In addition to the Vice President's fraud task force.
00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:30.879
That's right.
00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:39.759
I'm not sure that throwing bureaucratic organizations into these problems is going to address the issue the way we want it to.
00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:41.520
Is that sacrilege to our?
00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:42.639
No, not at all.
00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:44.400
I mean, I feel like you're channeling Tom Coburn.
00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:45.439
I think we need him back.
00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:49.199
If they have some tiger teams that are part of those task forces, then they're probably going to get something done.
00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:49.599
Yeah.
00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:52.479
Unfortunately, he's at the Dolly Parton concert right now.
00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:59.840
And the DOJ thing is funny because the DOJ already has a office that investigates and prosecutes fraud.
00:02:59.919 --> 00:03:00.960
It already exists.
00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:02.960
What why are we so anyway?
00:03:03.199 --> 00:03:04.479
But we need another task force.
00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:08.560
A fair point to make is that we still have a hell of a lot of fraud.
00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:10.639
So we need to be doing something different.
00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:14.560
I'm not sure task forces are the right answer, but we need to be doing something.
00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:25.840
Well, speaking of trying to prevent fraud, OMB has, I don't think they've released it yet, but there's a draft memo that has been leaked that is attempting to force is a strong word.
00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:35.680
Strongly recommend that agencies use login.gov as an option for people to log in for citizen-facing services.
00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:37.680
A lot of posts about this.
00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:39.759
There's a FedScoop article about it.
00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:42.080
I feel like I've seen this movie before.
00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:43.759
I feel like this has been tried.
00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:45.039
Me too.
00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:53.840
OMB forcing agencies to use a shared service has been less successful than it should be.
00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:58.800
I mean, OMB's got a pretty big hammer to drive people to do this.
00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:00.319
Let's see if this one works.
00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:00.960
It's true.
00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:11.840
And I believe Jeremy Grant, one of the godfathers of identity in the federal space, if you don't know Jeremy, had an opinion piece that said, okay, that's fine, that's all well and good, but how are they going to enforce it?
00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:16.079
And there certainly are ways, depending how hard our OMB wants to go.
00:04:16.240 --> 00:04:20.079
But what typically happens is they say, hey, GSA, you run this service.
00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:21.519
Why don't you make agencies do it?
00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:23.279
And then they don't focus on it anymore.
00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:25.439
And we all know how that story ends.
00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:28.160
So login is way better than it used to be.
00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:30.000
I think we need to make sure we point that out.
00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:35.439
I think when OMB and the government tried this in the past, login wasn't really a good service.
00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:43.040
I think if people would qualify it as a good service now that people should be using, both agencies and citizens to log into accounts.
00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:45.759
So we'll have to see how hard they want to go and push this.
00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:48.399
Can we talk about something more exciting?
00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:49.920
Yes, please.
00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:58.480
The Chief Data Officers Council released the DCAT US version 3.0 schema implementation guide.
00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:00.879
Oh my god, why didn't we lead with this?
00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:06.560
The law mandates federal agencies develop and maintain comprehensive data inventories.
00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:17.600
Agencies must submit standardized metadata of agency data assets to the federal data catalog, and those must conform with this schema.
00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:25.279
So this is the path to transparency that you and I have been plowing for many decades.
00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:26.639
Many decades.
00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:36.959
And I'm mostly saying these comments tongue-in-cheek, but we've talked a lot on the show and heard from guests on the show talking about how if your data is not ready, AI is not going to work.
00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:42.079
And this is one of the things that agencies can do to make sure that their data is ready.
00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:50.399
Yeah, it is sort of like not to show my Texas too much, but it's like this is the drill.
00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:56.240
This is the rig that will unlock the gold that is in the nation's data.
00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:57.199
How about that?
00:05:57.920 --> 00:05:59.519
That's a beautiful metaphor.
00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:03.759
I've never felt like you've held back your Texas, by the way.
00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:07.839
So if you feel like you're holding it back, I think we need to have a separate conversation about this.
00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:13.920
It might be a good idea to reminisce with somebody behind this open data law.
00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:15.360
Oh, this is a great idea.
00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:16.160
Let's do that.
00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:29.360
This episode is brought to you by Alicor, which powers the technology behind public sector lending grant and capital deployment programs, helping agencies modernize operations, improve oversight, and better serve the public.
00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:32.639
And you can learn even more at Alicor.com.
00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:38.079
Thanks to our friends at Alicor for sponsoring this episode of the Gov Navigator Show.
00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:50.959
So I think, Adam, I was the first to stumble upon the Wall Street Journal article about our friend Christina Ho.
00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:56.240
You know, this is another one of your outrageous claims, but I actually think this one might be true.
00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:59.519
So I texted you about it immediately.
00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:00.000
Okay.
00:07:00.560 --> 00:07:03.040
And she's always caused trouble.
00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:05.040
As long as I've known her.
00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:10.800
Christina Ho, star of the Wall Street Journal, stirring it up wherever you go.
00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:12.319
Welcome to the program.
00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:14.879
Well, thank you, Robert.
00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:17.040
I would take that as a compliment.
00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:17.360
Yeah.
00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:25.360
Because I think people like to hear an irony story and troublemaker sell stories.
00:07:26.639 --> 00:07:28.480
Good trouble, though, as they say.
00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:33.519
Tell our listeners a little bit more about your background and where you've landed right now.
00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:42.240
Yeah, so I was at the PCOB as a board member for about four plus years until the end of January this year.
00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:45.759
So I was regulating the public company auditor.
00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:52.560
And a few months later, I joined a venture-backed company called Oath Verified.
00:07:53.120 --> 00:08:04.240
And the vision is to build AI native audit and also a robust verification platform that can verify all the financial information.
00:08:04.720 --> 00:08:08.319
We also since then became a licensed CPA firm.
00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:13.120
So we have a CPA entity plus the verification platform.
00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:16.639
And I'm super excited about what I'm doing there.
00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:27.519
I have been there for four months and I've learned more in the past four months than my past four years, which I'm happy to talk more about.
00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:29.199
Well, yeah, let's jump in.
00:08:29.279 --> 00:08:32.799
Tell us why did you decide to go there and what do you think the potential is?
00:08:32.960 --> 00:08:41.840
Because I feel like obviously this is in your wheelhouse with what you've done in your career, but you've also been talking about this for a long time, that we need more automation.
00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:46.399
We need to be able to do this faster and better in audit, but across finishing management.
00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.440
So tell us why you wanted to go there and what you think the potential is.
00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:50.320
Yes.
00:08:50.559 --> 00:09:00.879
So when I was on a board, I was frequently talking about how technology can help us promote higher audit quality, help us reimagine auditing.
00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:03.919
But it's always easier to talk.
00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:05.840
And that was my job.
00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:17.919
But after I left, and then when I came across and met Lucas Ward, who is a serial entrepreneur who's the CEO, I realized here's my opportunity to build.
00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:26.639
And I see the vision because historically we have always been in this space that is human checking human work.
00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:36.240
And now with all the information being generated by machine, we need to build a new environment where machine is checking machine.
00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:41.039
And what that means, we need to connect to the data sources.
00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:43.440
We no longer need to sample.
00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:50.080
Sample is defensible when testing the entire population was not possible.
00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:55.200
But now with machine, you can test everything very efficiently.
00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:58.159
And then we also have to do this continuously.
00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:01.360
And I really felt like our vision aligned.
00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:12.879
And I saw this as an opportunity to really help increase the trust we have in the financial information and also in the overall society as well.
00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:24.159
So I decided that even though most people join startup when they're in their 20s at the beginning of their career, and I'm doing that, you know, you decided to do it when you're in your 30s.
00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:24.559
I understand.
00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:25.279
It makes sense.
00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:31.679
But anyway, I feel very privileged and blessed to have this opportunity to build.
00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:43.360
And because now I am actually working with the AI every day, and I am actually designing the methodology from the ground up to actually a AI native.
00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:58.559
Like everything I said during my time at PCOB when I was talking, I am more convinced than ever that it is possible that technology is really good and it will definitely make audit faster, better, and cheaper.
00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:11.120
They don't normally use to go together or these three words, but in this case, they do go together because it really is anchored on the same thing by leveraging technology.
00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:14.879
But of course, you still have to have human accountability.
00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:20.799
So we are operating in this human-led AI power environment.
00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:32.720
So talk a little bit more about how you're viewed by other independent public accounting firms in the space.
00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:36.480
The industry's going through massive disruption.
00:11:36.799 --> 00:11:43.679
Firms, you know, our former firm, Grant Thornton, KPMG, have left federal business altogether.
00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:48.240
But commercial audit likewise is going through big change.
00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:50.720
How are you viewed by your competitors?
00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:52.799
If you have any insight into that.
00:11:53.279 --> 00:12:01.759
Yeah, I'm sure the big firms probably felt like, oh, they're just small and might dismiss us.
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:03.759
But it's not just us.
00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:11.519
What I'm seeing in this industry, there's almost like a new audit tech startup every month.
00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:23.440
And I also know the venture calculus community seem to be very interested in investing in these startups because this is a legacy industry, if you will.
00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:28.480
It's regulated and it is also like painful.
00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:30.000
People don't like it.
00:12:30.240 --> 00:12:33.279
So it's really ripe for disruption.
00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:41.919
So there is a lot of interest in investing in figuring out how to really transform and reimagine this space.
00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:44.240
So I'm super excited.
00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:53.600
I I'm happy that there are other people doing it because I think it basically legitimized the fact that this is really needed.
00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:02.799
About how a lot of the focus of what you're building is on audit, but it's not just audit.
00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:10.720
So tell us a little bit more about that and what the applications for this technology, both for audit, but are also for things that are larger than that.
00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:11.440
Yeah.
00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:15.600
So our vision is we're creating a whole new category.
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.480
We call it independent verification.
00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:35.679
I think the independent aspect is really important because the fact that you always have to have a third party verifying someone who actually generates the information to do that concept, I think is really important and it's enduring.
00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:38.320
But the mechanism needs to be changed.
00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:43.360
So we believe that audit is one form of verification.
00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:53.200
Audit historically has been verifying, providing reasonable assurance on financial information, but that's also based on a sampling basis.
00:13:53.440 --> 00:14:16.000
There are so many other so many areas, like in the federal space, you can see, for example, improper payments and what information people are generating that is used for other types of even budget information and things like that currently doesn't really get audited, needs to be verified so that people can trust the data.
00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:19.600
And federal government also has so much data.
00:14:19.919 --> 00:14:35.519
So being able to have machine check the information generated by the machine that are being used either to make really important decisions or publish to the public, I think is really key.
00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:37.840
And that includes so many space.
00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:41.039
I think about Medicaid, I think about an employment insurance.
00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:52.799
I mean, all these space grant and also with the proliferation of the use of AI, how do we know that the information that are being generated by AI is correct?
00:14:52.960 --> 00:15:00.720
I think that's another form of verification that I think will probably have more demand in the future.
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:08.000
A friend of mine's over at HHS launched an initiative to analyze single audit act reports.
00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:11.840
These are the audits of grantees of a certain size.
00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:23.440
And he's sort of marveling at the fact that these have been in file cabinets or PDF files for decades, and people really couldn't farm those for insights.
00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:28.240
And now he's looking at them and saying, Well, my God, of course there's fraud here.
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:31.360
These auditors have been applying these controls forever.
00:15:31.600 --> 00:15:38.559
Do you see more and more of that insights into areas that heretofore went buried?
00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:50.960
Yes, because in the past, because these single audit reports, they're unstructured data for all the grant recipients that receive a certain amount of federal dollar.
00:15:51.120 --> 00:16:00.399
They go through these audits, and normally it's a nonprofit where they have a financial statement audit, and then at the same time they get a single audit done.
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:06.480
So it has a little bit more compliance specific for the federal regulations.
00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:10.320
And so those reports are often unstructured.
00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:25.840
So now with AI, you can analyze all that information and then get insights because you can see trends, you can identify based on a specific grantee or based on a specific firm.
00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:31.279
So I definitely think that that would be a very rich data source.
00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:37.279
I don't want to get out over my skis on this because you you both know I'm not a technical expert in this.
00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:48.720
Help us understand a little bit how what you're doing in the audit space can be applied to government auditing, which is, as you've already stated, and most people know highly regulated.
00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.639
Is there low-hanging fruit to be able to kind of start with?
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:54.639
Is it going to require a regulatory change?
00:16:54.879 --> 00:17:01.679
Tell us some of the kind of challenges that applying new technologies like what you're building to government auditing would entail.
00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:02.399
Yeah.
00:17:02.559 --> 00:17:06.079
So I actually read M2530.
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:08.160
Oh my gosh, the memo number.
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:12.960
We need like a bell every time a guest says a memo number.
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:19.039
I think the title says Ensuring Accountability, How We Oversee, Audit, and Improve.
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:20.880
So it's from OMB.
00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:25.839
And I think the summary of that, there are a couple takeaways from that memo.
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:36.880
One is that the federal audit is not working, basically, because you can receive clean opinion and you still have improper payments, still you have all these things.
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:39.920
And of course, there are all kinds of different reasons for that.
00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:44.880
I used to be a federal executive, so I understand these environments.
00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:52.319
And then they talk about changing the way that agencies prepare financial statements and make it one year and things like that.
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:59.759
So I would say that I agree that auditing is not working and it's not just federal.
00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:03.440
I would say it's the same thing on the commercial side.
00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:14.559
Is that basically audit has become a compliance exercise, it no longer provides the value that it's intended initially for.
00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:21.039
So the one key reason, I think, is that it's still sample.
00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:32.319
I think that this would be a game changer if the auditors are testing 100% because technology makes it possible.
00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:32.720
Yeah.
00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:35.599
You can do 100% in the time you used to do a sample.
00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:36.240
Yes.
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:37.759
Or maybe faster, right?
00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:38.079
Yeah.
00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:42.799
You know, because when you think about federal, like people think, oh, it's so so big.
00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:46.640
Yes, it's a lot of transaction, but the machine can handle that.
00:18:46.880 --> 00:19:00.559
And if you can do that one audit, and even if it's one year, you do full scope, you not only can have your opinion, but you can also test all the improper payment.
00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:20.640
Like you can have a much better sense, even if you just test one full year of payment for every agency, you're gonna be able to that I would call a form of verification that the federal government would get so much more value from versus just a compliance exercise.
00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:23.359
Or these reports that sit on shelves and nobody ever looks at.
00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:23.759
Yes.
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:25.200
It's not it's not operational.
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:25.839
Yeah.
00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:26.480
Yeah.
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:28.240
In the commercial side, the same.
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:38.079
When I was on the PCOB board, I mean, I cannot tell you, like for me, because this is all public accounting, it's like a billion dollar industry.
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:52.559
It's just I can't think of any other product that people pay that much money for and say they don't know what the value is, other than that it's something they have to do.
00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:56.240
Well, we don't care anymore because we're not a great authority.
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:02.640
Is this also gonna accelerate remediation, Christina?
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:13.920
I mean, I know that's a stupid question because it ought to, but do you see the concomitant response on the auditee side?
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:34.559
Yes, I actually think when you're testing 100% transaction, how unless you want to specifically know tests all your control, you don't need to test control in order to be able to reach that audit opinion when you do 100% testing.
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:36.559
So that's one piece.
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:44.079
And then I think if you still test the control, it will make the internal control actually more concrete.
00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:51.359
Because a lot of time the internal control testing is like, did you approve this?
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:53.759
Did you have segregation duty?
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:55.200
You know, things like that.
00:20:55.359 --> 00:21:06.000
And it's not very precise, it's very subjective, and also you can't really quantify, like let's say your control did have a control deficiency.
00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:08.640
Normally it's like a step that you didn't do.
00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:12.319
But what impact does that really have?
00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:22.720
So I think if you do 100% testing, then you have a much more concrete understanding of the impact of your control deficiency.
00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:31.359
Okay, Christy, we are approaching the end of time here, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts about how fast can government implement these sorts of things?
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:35.359
New technology adoption is always a struggle inside or outside of government.
00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:40.559
Do you feel like government has been itching to get this and oh my God, thank God it's here?
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:43.519
Or are there gonna be people who'd be like, that's not gonna work, we can't do that.
00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:44.960
That's not how we do things here.
00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:49.920
What's your take on the mood from across the federal government and the auditing community?
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:57.039
Yeah, well, I'm sure that there'll be plenty of people who say, no, we can't do this and we don't wanna change.
00:21:57.279 --> 00:21:59.599
But I look at some of the memo on the auditing.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.319
And then I also know there was a memo on AI adoption.
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:12.160
So there seemed to be, at least from a signal perspective, interest in embracing technology.
00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:18.799
I think that based on my review of this memo, maybe it's missing a solution.
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:23.519
There's like identifying these problems, but what's the solution?
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:26.960
And what I'm saying is that this is the solution.
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:43.920
If you can test 100% and connect to the data sources, and even if you just do one year, the government will know a lot more and they will actually be able to concretely reduce impover payment because they'll have the specific.
00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:54.559
What does that actually mean?
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:55.200
Yes.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:59.440
So they will give you concrete things that you can actually fix.
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:08.079
And so I hope that the federal government is open to learning more about this because I know it's happening in the private sector.
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:14.960
And I certainly would really want the federal government to have access to this kind of technology.
00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:19.359
Well, if anybody can bring it to them, it's you, Christina.
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:23.200
You're relentless, and we'll be watching.
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:24.559
Well, thank you.
00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:35.920
This is a great opportunity to help fix some of the decade-old problem at the federal government, which I was in the government myself, so I know about these problems very, very well.
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:41.039
But thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my perspectives here.
00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:42.480
You bet, Christina.
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:43.039
It's been great.
00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:43.519
Thanks so much.
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:44.240
Thanks a lot.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:45.200
Take care.
00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:46.480
Thank you.
00:23:50.559 --> 00:23:51.759
The nicest, by the way.
00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:52.559
All right.
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:54.000
So what's going on this week?
00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:58.559
Well, traffic's gonna pick up because uh the house is back.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:00.960
Yeah, but only for four days.
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:02.799
I think did they have a nutty week?
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:04.559
What do we mean only for four days?
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:07.200
Then they recess for a full week for Labor Day.
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.039
You know what this sounds like?
00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:10.880
The Adam Hughes plan.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:15.039
That's right.
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:16.240
They might have a golf trip.
00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:16.720
Who knows?
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:17.039
Right?
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:20.000
Every member of Congress is out for a golf trip the week of Labor Day.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:21.039
It's a little peculiar.
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:24.000
I'm not sure why they're coming back and then going out again for a week.
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:27.839
The Senate is out until after Labor Day, which is the typical schedule.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:30.240
But yes, they will be back doing something.
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:32.559
Anything going on in town?
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:34.000
Not really.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:35.839
I have nothing.
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:37.680
We track a lot of events, you know that.
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:40.720
We really don't have anything that's big happening next week.
00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:42.960
It is the traditional last week of summer.
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:44.160
It'll pick up.
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.680
We've got our Policy Wonk Happy Hour on the 9th.
00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:53.440
We do see, which we are hosting for the benefit of our friends at the Senior Executives Association.
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:54.400
Correct.
00:24:54.720 --> 00:25:00.960
If you're a former senior executive or a current senior executive, hang up now and join.
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:05.440
That's not going to be at the exchange, by the way.
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:09.200
So please come, even if you didn't get the invite, that's an open happy hour.
00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:09.839
We'd love to see you.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:23.680
And a stacked lineup of speakers for that conference.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:24.160
Yes.
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:25.519
It looks incredibly good.
00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:27.279
So make sure you check it out.
00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:28.160
All right.
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:29.519
Well, have a great week.
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:30.319
Yep.
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:33.200
Hey, thanks again to our friends at Alicor.
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:36.079
I think we can afford now to go another couple of weeks.
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:40.400
Yeah, the podcast will continue thanks to the lovely people over at Alicor.
00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:43.200
Make sure you go to Alicor.com and check out what they're doing.
00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:47.759
They're working hard every day, they're improving government, and we appreciate them.
00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:01.279
Thanks for listening to another episode of the Gov Navigator Show, brought to you by GovNavigators.
00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:04.240
We sure hope you enjoyed it and learned something in the process.
00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:06.000
And didn't get seasick.
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:07.599
Right, of course.
00:26:07.839 --> 00:26:14.000
If you want to know more about us and what we're up to, please follow us on social media or visit govnavigators.com.
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:15.039
Ahoy!
