speaker-0: Welcome to the Global Advantage, a Vance's Capital Podcast. My name is Sebastian Grube and I'll be your host for today. Most conversations about citizenship and residency start with a problem: a weak passport, an unstable jurisdiction, a family that needs options it doesn't currently have. Today's conversation starts somewhere else. My guest is Matt Hurley, co-founder and CEO of Poseidon Group. Matt spent 12 years in the British Army as a cavalry officer, completing seven operational tours before he retired. As a major in 2007. He then built Poseidon into a group operating across four continents, spanning real estate, care services, recruitment, mining, and specialist training, with around $1.65 billion of assets developed and managed and some 50 institutional partners. He is a British citizen, lives in the Gulf, and he recently received his St. Lucia citizenship. Matt is also a Vance's Capital client, which is how this conversation came about. He has spent his career assessing risk, first in uniform, then with his own capital. This conversation digs into how his thinking works and where it led him. Matt, welcome.
speaker-1: Good morning, Sebastian, and thank you very much for having me on your podcast. Very much for you engaging.
speaker-0: So we'll kind of work our way through your career. We'll start in the military service and I'm really interested about your views on risks. Is there any particular moment in your seven tours that still shapes how you make decisions today?
speaker-1: I don't think it's specific to a tour. If we take a step back, military training, military analysis, everything starts with intelligence. Intelligence actually drives a plan. The plan then is dictated the mission, which is then translated on the ground to success. Not something on a tour specifically, but it formulated a process that enabled us to achieve the results that we were wanting to or aspiring to achieve, not specific to the seven tours, but down to the training, preparation and intelligence. Does that make sense? I mean it's basically a standardized process that translates across to actual business, which is how we evolve.
speaker-0: I hear what I'm picking up on especially is the intelligence part because you talk a lot about Poseidon Group operating a lot with data and that being the kind of more foundational lever of how you leverage your insights and the advice that you give. So would you say that's a fair connection to make? That that intelligence that you built and that kind of foundational approach.
speaker-1: I'm pretty unconventional when you look at my career and how the military translated across into business, but I see the verticals and the stepping stones as the same, which is what you've correctly ⁓ picked up on. Whether it be military intelligence or business intelligence, those two aspects and what we're talking about translates across to how we actually operate on the ground itself. And you speak about intelligence. I think that Whatever sector one is in, one has to analyze risk. Risk is dictated by the intelligence what one has to actually formulate the plan. So whether that be in property and business intelligence might incorporate political risk, economic risk, ⁓ specific to a country, or actually a deal risk subject to the people that we're dealing with, the partners that we're partnering with, or the operational risk to implement a plan or an investment. I think Collectively, the mechanisms that we went through in the army, and I'm very clear on that, that a lot of those processes translate across into business, and vice versa, business translates across into military. And it's quite interesting when one looks at that. The Americans do it very well. Senior generals spend two years out, or some do, specifically the ones that are going to ⁓ the most senior positions where they will integrate into. civilian businesses at a certain stage in their career, which will enable them to understand the business operational practices, and in the same way they will give their inputs and be able to enable businesses to learn from them. So I think this sort of fusion of ideas, processes, translates very clearly and easily across military to let's call it civilian business.
speaker-0: And then maybe on the flip side, was there a decision early in your business or later where you realized that the military approach didn't transfer as well?
speaker-1: As I said, we follow common practices and that whilst headlines what one might learn at a very early age in terms of business studies and using UK analogy here, which is taught at GCSE level, which is up to sixteen, or A level up to eighteen, or when one goes to universities thereafter. I think the principles and the verticals remain the same. What's different, of course, is that this Certain differences when you're looking to execute in the military when the plan has been made. Of course, what we don't have in a wartime operational footing are the HR issues. We have different issues in the field, of course, that one has to address, but you're not looking at employment law at that time. Stage, you have a very different set of persons and concerns. But I would say that 95% is directly transferable. When you get to the N5%, certain ⁓ employment HR issues are relevant in the civilian world, but not transferable to the military world, and vice versa, when we're on the, let's call it, wartime operational footing.
speaker-0: That makes sense. And it kind of leads us nicely into speaking about building across borders because I'm assuming that the HR and people management is very different as well across different jurisdictions and different countries. And we see that with Mansus Capital because we operate across different countries. But I'm assuming with Poseidon as well, you've operated internationally for about twenty years now across the UK, UAE, Europe, South America, and Asia. What are the differences that you're seeing, or are there any differences in operating across all of these jurisdictions? Are you able to have a centralized system in terms of how you're addressing people management or or just generally building having built your business across these different international borders?
speaker-1: I think when we look at that and we're talking about that, we've got the investment side, which carries different risks, different analysis, and we've touched on that previously. And I think that translates in terms of whether and if we want to take forward a project, which is something slightly different to what you're asking at this moment in time. In terms of the transition and how we deal specifically in certain countries, and I think you're talking about HR issues, of course, there's massive differences. culturally, historically, which translates across how we actually manage HR issues, how we implement and get the best out of the people that are working for us in that country. Whether it be the way that those people have been trained, the education that they've had, in some countries, for example, what we find very clearly is because of the education system, how they progressed, whether it be up to college level, whether it be beyond that in terms of a university level. ⁓ a lot of education systems are different. They look at different ways of teaching, different ways of encouraging thinking, and that in turn enables or requires different ways of managing those people and different amounts of involvement within the procedures that we put in place. When I'm looking at that specifically, when we look at an education system which is very much group learning, learning facts rather than analysing facts, we see that translate across to management and the people that we hire within those specific countries. Whilst our procedures don't change, we do find that the ability or the necessity to, let's call it, change and encourage different ways of thinking dependent upon the education in that country that they've had or been exposed to. Of course, what we're looking for is to develop people who will manage, who will make decisions. And that doesn't come naturally to a lot of people, which is absolutely understandable but I think it translates directly from an early age in terms of the education system in that country.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's fair enough. So we'll take a lots of steps back from the people management and look at the larger picture of how you're making investment decisions. And generally let's kind of start with how did Poseidon end up this diversified across all of these different countries? Was that
speaker-1: Interestingly, Poseidon was set up as a family office originally whilst I was leaving the army, but we took advantage of where I was and where I had served. So the initial implementation of the group in terms of real estate was into the former Yugoslavian countries, ⁓ starting on the Croatian coast, moving to Serbia and then moving into Bosnia, Slovenia. Reason why that was is quite an interesting story. We were there doing operational tours in Bosnia. At the end of those tours, we had a lot of displaced people from the north of Bosnia, south of Bosnia, Republic of Srpska, and the Federation. And there's a lot of people living in each other's real estate in their houses. We understood and started to get to understand, almost like a pseudo-lawyer, how the land registry system worked. That enabled us to then look at and make contacts at government level. To understand the cadaster, which is the name of the land registry there. And that map presented the opportunity on the Croatian coast that I identified to anchor the real estate projects at a very early stage because I had a lot of knowledge alongside the contacts to then start the tourist side of the investment business into Bournemouth Yugoslavia. So that was opportunity driven by experiences within the military. In the same way on the security, I was fortunate enough to spend a year in Argentina in South America, where I was training the division that was going on a peace support operation with the UN to Haiti. That exposed me again to opportunities in South America. So with those two anchors, the family office, my brother Oliver Hurley, we then strategized that we would anchor on that. But then look at various opportunities when they presented themselves. And rather than specifically looking at how and when, we looked at supplementary opportunities where they presented themselves, but importantly, where we could add value to our business at the same time. So interestingly, the manpower business evolved because we needed manpower, because there was a shortage of manpower within our development company. Whilst we were providing manpower. ⁓ to our own companies, of course there was an opportunity to provide it to other companies that required that. It's more presenting opportunities that presented themselves, analyzing those opportunities where they can supplement our current business, future business, and utilising the different offices and understanding that we have in different jurisdictions. And I think that's important to say as well. You know, we are Wary of overexpanding too quickly, going into different territories that we don't understand. Of course, we do that and we analyze that through what we spoke about earlier in terms of risk, in terms of reward. But I think essentially it has grown for a reason and is very much deliberate in the approaches and the understanding based upon experience and trusted people and offices where we operate.
speaker-0: It sounds very natural in a way. Instead of you looking at the map and saying, I want to go to this country, it sounds like it really just grew out of the needs of the businesses that you had and the experience with that with your different chores that you were describing. That's great. I think there's a lot to learn for listeners who are looking to either build across jurisdictions or already have setups that are spanning international borders. You talk a lot about Poseidon acting as a principal as well, rather than an intermediary. You put down capital alongside the partner. of the company. Why do you do that? And how does that change the advice that you give your investors?
speaker-1: I think if we concentrate on one sector, it's easier to explain it when we look at real estate and let's look at real estate, not in former Yugoslavia, let's look at how we entered the market in the Middle East and specifically in Dubai. We came here, we identified an opportunity, we put our own capital in, we've invested a lot of family office funds, and we've developed a business to enable us to work within a jurisdiction that we wanted to work ⁓ alongside. Current partners that then came to us, of course, they get a lot more confidence if they see that we have got a strategy, that we've been successful. We can show them how we operate, that we have a track record, that we have risked our own money. That aside, of course, if people are seeing that, they have confidence to follow our strategy. They can see how we differentiate ourselves within a market, specifically in this market, which is actually we we very much enjoy working in the UAE in Dubai for various reasons. But when you're putting your own money in, especially alongside investors, of course it instills confidence. ⁓ and people can see the results previously with the track record. So I think naturally, rather than being a broker sitting there, it means that you do have ground truth, that people understand that there is transparency in your advice. that you are standing beh behind your own advice, of course, and you can demonstrate very clearly where you've been successful. And don't get me wrong, Sebastian, of course, we do learn from our mistakes and we learn from them very quick. And we need to be open, honest and agile to that, because no organization is perfect, but it's how one reacts to a mistake. And that's all down to the planning and contingency to make sure that alongside that and as we progress a project in any set So that we have contingency plans so that the final results will be achieved. And again that comes back to our early conversations about military planning, which is central to every military plan the contingency planning to achieve your mission.
speaker-0: Would you mind describing a moment where you made such a mistake without any disclosing any confidential information, of course? But what happened and what did you learn? What were the conclusions that you drew?
speaker-1: We're talking about mistakes, we have a plan and we are planning for mistakes. Mistakes will be, and when I say mistakes, I'm not talking within the company. These are identified risks which have evolved and consolidated into having to take a different course of action. So, as an example, we had a platform here where we were investing into a number of asset classes. Now the asset classes that we invest into they consist of number one, off plan properties, number two, distress properties, number three, secondary, which is ready built income producing. Because the market evolved and has changed so quickly, we did make initially, based upon advisory of brokers, a number of, I would say poor investments because of the advice that we've been given in terms of off plan, over inflated prices without understanding the exit. The exit that we've been explained, the information that we get got given was incorrect. However, we had a contingency plan whereas we could cross fertilize the assets and actually turn them into distress deals, whereas the legal situation was challenged because of the information we were given and we understood that there was a challenge to the contracts that we'd signed to evolve the payment plans to negotiate with the developer, which then changed the whole outcome in terms of when we had to pay, which then enabled us to renegotiate the payment plan to get back to the returns that we'd expected in the first place. When I called the same mistakes, it was yes, contingency planning against not being able to achieve the returns that we expected in first order, on the understanding on entry that we were and understood the risk and had a plan in place to mitigate against that.
speaker-0: Wonderful. Thank you for that example. And I think that's ⁓ probably something not all business owners think about all of the time when they're stuck in the weeds of running their businesses and solving the problems that are currently on their desk is actually really working on those contingency planning. That kinda leads me to the headlines of the region have been a bit difficult this year, especially in the Gulf, Dubai. But you're still committing capital there, you're still very much based there, ⁓ seem very bullish still on the region. So what are you seeing that the headlines aren't? ⁓
speaker-1: The end of the day, it's not what the headlines aren't seeing. UAE, it's leadership. There is a lot of noise in the property market dating back before the current troubles. Lots of things have not changed here. We have one of the strongest leadership here is an asset in itself. It's one of the best governments in the world, as far as I'm concerned. It's decisive, adaptable, it's intelligent. It's Has the ability to make long-term decisions and it's always delivered on. It acknowledges in each cycle where there's been a downturn, where there has been problems. That dates back to 2008. There was a problem with the development market, it addressed at by land department and RERA, which is two regulating bodies in property, how to protect investors. So the reaction of this government, whether it be in the property sector, whether it be to economic problems, is Paramount in the success. And I think we've seen that now. The reaction here to everything that has happened has been exemplary. When you say, What am I seeing, what other people aren't seeing, I think a lot of people are still seeing what I am seeing. We have a huge amount of investment still coming into this country beyond the property itself, which of course has been difficult at times. But we are members of lots of business clubs here. ⁓ With a large number of CEOs, CFOs. By and large, of course, what has happened since February has not affected the long-term decisions of companies who are either relocating here or opening offices here. That is happening on a daily basis. If people were actually not seeing what we're seeing, you wouldn't be seeing that, if that makes sense. We're very happy with it, and the record proves it completely, and the data confirms it as well. I mean, when you look at The property market itself. I mean, I think it's a hundred and fourteen billion dollars of property transactions this year today. And you know, agencies are holding their ratings. The region really has been in untouched. Comes down to leadership, strong governance. We're not worried by what happens. Unfortunately, I think the rest of the world is getting more affected by what's happening here, because whether it be from an economic or security perspective, I always use the analogy, it's like chucking a stone in a pond. The ripple effect will be felt on the outside at a later date in terms of time. And we can see that translating across to the markets. So the ability for the government to react here to what's happened, their long term vision actually means that we are absolutely secure here. And I put that down to the government itself and the leadership here. I think a lot of people are seeing it, Sebastian. People aren't changing course. And I think the media itself, of course, media are media, and they report what People want to hear, not what is reality.
speaker-0: course. And I think and I appreciate that insight. It still bears saying though, I think because if you're based in the Gulf or you've lived there for a long time, there is this certain confidence that exists ⁓ if you interacted with the region. I think that partially and you can contradict me if I'm wrong on that or if you have other relationships who say differently, I think that people who are not familiar as familiar with the region tend to listen a bit more to the headlines rather than understanding the reality that is there. So I do still think For our audiences who aren't as familiar with Dubai or as familiar with the U United Arab Emirates and the Gulf, it's great to get your perspective because you're based there, you're committed there.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I look at it very objectively as well, because I'm not anchored here. We have businesses all around the world. I'm very objective when it comes to the analysis of what goes on here. So with transparency, when we're talking about it, and you're absolutely correct, Sebastian, on what you said. We have a lot of clients who were worried, and of course, we had to explain this. So we produce facts, figures based upon security. based upon safety, we're still in the UAE in the safest place in the world. And that's safest economically and from a physical security side. And that was during the conflict time as well. So of course you're absolutely correct. I take it for granted and it might be and you may think, well, you're ex military, so you look at things very differently. And of course when there were drones flying, it was very worrying for a lot of people, not so much if you've got that experience. Because it's not something that you worry about having the experience that you've had on operations, but the way it was dealt with, and it comes back to the strong leadership in the same way. But again, when we're looking at an investment wise, I do encourage people to take a step back, look at it, look at the headline figures. You know, everything that we do as a company and we analyze very clearly here, like everywhere else, but here we have our own data engines. our own technology where the property and the analysis that we look at is not what's been reported. We have here a system that was set up that's worth touching upon when we're looking at the economics and this sector specifically, which is obviously what we've invested into. There is a data system here that was set up where every single transaction on day of completion is registered in a government office. And that data is accessible to everybody to see what is Happening that day, which allows you to actually look at the market in real time. And that means that when we are talking to and offering advice to our investors, that type of data and that type of confidence does allow us, I suppose, to give different real-time opinions on the economics of property that people and other people might not have. or be exposed to. I do understand your question and it's very good point, Sebastian, in terms of what you're saying. But that's engagement knowledge and I don't take that for granted and I understand, you know, subjective opinions and people's concerns, but it's how we counteract that and get real time intelligence again. We're going a full circle. So
speaker-0: Exactly. Yeah. Going to to getting intelligence, I wanna get a little bit more personal. You hold a British citizenship, you're a part of or based in the Gulf or in Dubai. On paper, you kind of have everything that a citizenship is supposed to provide. A good traveler freedom, a high rank passport, as we would say in our industries. What made you think otherwise? What made you become a client of Vansis and what made you look at a second citizenship?
speaker-1: I've got residency in UE. That's conditional. Citizenship isn't. Yes, we do have British citizenship. I think coming to Bances, it's a second citizenship for me is a contingency plan. Again, it's not an exit. Making sure that I have that, it's not about leaving anywhere. It's more of an option rather than been tied down, no one knows what's going to happen in the future. So, you know, diversifying across assets, currency, jurisdictions in business, having that contingency with a second citizenship is obviously not just a nice to have, but critical if you're looking at contingency planning for family and personal. So that's the way I look at it.
speaker-0: How long was it before you acted? How long did you kind of ponder this decision in terms of the research process? What kind of intelligence did you gather before you decided to invest in a second citizenship?
speaker-1: I said, I wanted a second citizenship. We had very good advice from Bansis. They engaged with us. We asked a lot of questions, probably a lot of very difficult questions, based upon again our planning. So it was then tying down what would best suit us in terms of which citizenship and where. I think it was an engagement of about six months. Yes, it was a rigorous betting pro after that stage as well when we tied down where we wanted. go to. St. Lucia made sense for a number of reasons, but it was the integration with Ancis in the first point, making the decision and then working through obviously the vetting. And you know better than I, Sebastian, it is quite rigorous and not difficult, quite the opposite. It's all to do with how it's explained and how one's guided. But we were very happy with that. So in the same way we look at our own service presiders, fantasys obviously came up Trump's when it came to the programme and the services that were provided to us because I'm ⁓ quite difficult when it comes to the due diligence that I require to make these decisions. So ⁓ it was seamless and very successful.
speaker-0: Thank you. And I did want to touch on that because I you are working in the business of advice as well. ⁓ and so is Vance Capitals. When you were looking at who you're gonna work with on this process, what were you looking for? What were your assessment criteria if you wanna put it in such a structured way? Well first
speaker-1: At the company itself, I make sure that my team has done the basic due diligence on the company standing, where it sits, where and how it's transacted, how long it's been operating for. Step number one: the basic due diligence on any company. Unfortunately, there are in lots of countries companies that don't have experience that won't deliver, and a lot of companies that are set up not to deliver as we know. So the very basics is there that anybody will conduct. On a service provider. When it then comes down to me to work with a company, whether that be on a personal basis or for the team, it's then looking at the integration and communication. And within that integration and communication, I think it becomes very clear very quickly in terms of how they react, the information that's been given, how quickly responses are received. And actually, importantly, then I always have face to face meetings. I fly around the world continually because. I don't believe in online meetings. I like online meetings as a interim when one can't be there. Face to face for me, one can break down brick walls very quickly that might be created through non human interaction. So to that way I do sit down with the principles face to face of service providers to make sure that we're all aligned as a business to business, specifically when it comes to Van Sys, of course, you know, went sat down in the office is to understand who was going to facilitate the process and that we're all happy and we could communicate that. And I think what's important for me always is a company telling me no. Somebody telling me that they can do everything and it's going to be done without problems causes a big concern for me. ⁓ because there's always going to be problems. And I think the clients, the way that we look at it, highlighting problems in advance and explaining where there may be problems actually encourages me and gives me confidence, not the other way around.
speaker-0: 'Cause you can build a contingency plan as well with the advisor. Absolutely correct. Amazing. Thank you for those insight and thank you for allowing us to get a little bit personal as well and digging into your personal decisions there. I have one last question before we end, which is really looking at the future, looking how you've built Poseidon so far, how you've set up your life across jurisdictions with contingency plans. What are you building toward now?
speaker-1: I think we're aligning and restructuring businesses because we do grow. And I think at the moment in the interim, I'm going through a strategic review of how the businesses look, making sure that each office is one standard across every business in every country, which is what we've tried from the beginning, but that constantly needs to be evaluated and evolved. In terms of growth, we will not, or hopefully will not, because I do like new opportunities, looking at new opportunities when they're presented, if they make sense. business, but I think it's consolidating on the proven capabilities of the company itself. We have invested into technology, we continue to invest into technology. I think that that needs to be integrated to understand how the whole world is moving and to enable us to keep ahead of competition, but also to approve and to utilize that in terms of best practices in the business itself. Beyond that, in terms of legacy, I'm not about legacy so much. You know, we have other interests personally. We've got a charity where it evolved from the earthquake in Nepal. I have 11 girls at an hour of an age that we're looking after them. That side of it and the charity side is something over the next 20 years that's going to be paramount with my two sons to take forward and to advise them into their twenties, into A difficult world which has been presented at the moment. I think alongside family charity working with the business, I think there's a lot to do in an ever-changing world now. I don't think we can look at 20 years at the moment. ⁓ I think with the world changing as it is, we're reassessing on a monthly basis at the moment, but consolidating on what we
speaker-0: Amazing. Yeah. There's a lots of work to be done and lots to look forward to. Matt, thank you so much. Thank you for your insights. Thank you for your time. And I'm sure that our listeners will really value this conversation.
speaker-1: Sebastian, thank you very much as well.
speaker-1: Good morning, Sebastian, and thank you very much for having me on your podcast. Very much for you engaging.
speaker-0: So we'll kind of work our way through your career. We'll start in the military service and I'm really interested about your views on risks. Is there any particular moment in your seven tours that still shapes how you make decisions today?
speaker-1: I don't think it's specific to a tour. If we take a step back, military training, military analysis, everything starts with intelligence. Intelligence actually drives a plan. The plan then is dictated the mission, which is then translated on the ground to success. Not something on a tour specifically, but it formulated a process that enabled us to achieve the results that we were wanting to or aspiring to achieve, not specific to the seven tours, but down to the training, preparation and intelligence. Does that make sense? I mean it's basically a standardized process that translates across to actual business, which is how we evolve.
speaker-0: I hear what I'm picking up on especially is the intelligence part because you talk a lot about Poseidon Group operating a lot with data and that being the kind of more foundational lever of how you leverage your insights and the advice that you give. So would you say that's a fair connection to make? That that intelligence that you built and that kind of foundational approach.
speaker-1: I'm pretty unconventional when you look at my career and how the military translated across into business, but I see the verticals and the stepping stones as the same, which is what you've correctly ⁓ picked up on. Whether it be military intelligence or business intelligence, those two aspects and what we're talking about translates across to how we actually operate on the ground itself. And you speak about intelligence. I think that Whatever sector one is in, one has to analyze risk. Risk is dictated by the intelligence what one has to actually formulate the plan. So whether that be in property and business intelligence might incorporate political risk, economic risk, ⁓ specific to a country, or actually a deal risk subject to the people that we're dealing with, the partners that we're partnering with, or the operational risk to implement a plan or an investment. I think Collectively, the mechanisms that we went through in the army, and I'm very clear on that, that a lot of those processes translate across into business, and vice versa, business translates across into military. And it's quite interesting when one looks at that. The Americans do it very well. Senior generals spend two years out, or some do, specifically the ones that are going to ⁓ the most senior positions where they will integrate into. civilian businesses at a certain stage in their career, which will enable them to understand the business operational practices, and in the same way they will give their inputs and be able to enable businesses to learn from them. So I think this sort of fusion of ideas, processes, translates very clearly and easily across military to let's call it civilian business.
speaker-0: And then maybe on the flip side, was there a decision early in your business or later where you realized that the military approach didn't transfer as well?
speaker-1: As I said, we follow common practices and that whilst headlines what one might learn at a very early age in terms of business studies and using UK analogy here, which is taught at GCSE level, which is up to sixteen, or A level up to eighteen, or when one goes to universities thereafter. I think the principles and the verticals remain the same. What's different, of course, is that this Certain differences when you're looking to execute in the military when the plan has been made. Of course, what we don't have in a wartime operational footing are the HR issues. We have different issues in the field, of course, that one has to address, but you're not looking at employment law at that time. Stage, you have a very different set of persons and concerns. But I would say that 95% is directly transferable. When you get to the N5%, certain ⁓ employment HR issues are relevant in the civilian world, but not transferable to the military world, and vice versa, when we're on the, let's call it, wartime operational footing.
speaker-0: That makes sense. And it kind of leads us nicely into speaking about building across borders because I'm assuming that the HR and people management is very different as well across different jurisdictions and different countries. And we see that with Mansus Capital because we operate across different countries. But I'm assuming with Poseidon as well, you've operated internationally for about twenty years now across the UK, UAE, Europe, South America, and Asia. What are the differences that you're seeing, or are there any differences in operating across all of these jurisdictions? Are you able to have a centralized system in terms of how you're addressing people management or or just generally building having built your business across these different international borders?
speaker-1: I think when we look at that and we're talking about that, we've got the investment side, which carries different risks, different analysis, and we've touched on that previously. And I think that translates in terms of whether and if we want to take forward a project, which is something slightly different to what you're asking at this moment in time. In terms of the transition and how we deal specifically in certain countries, and I think you're talking about HR issues, of course, there's massive differences. culturally, historically, which translates across how we actually manage HR issues, how we implement and get the best out of the people that are working for us in that country. Whether it be the way that those people have been trained, the education that they've had, in some countries, for example, what we find very clearly is because of the education system, how they progressed, whether it be up to college level, whether it be beyond that in terms of a university level. ⁓ a lot of education systems are different. They look at different ways of teaching, different ways of encouraging thinking, and that in turn enables or requires different ways of managing those people and different amounts of involvement within the procedures that we put in place. When I'm looking at that specifically, when we look at an education system which is very much group learning, learning facts rather than analysing facts, we see that translate across to management and the people that we hire within those specific countries. Whilst our procedures don't change, we do find that the ability or the necessity to, let's call it, change and encourage different ways of thinking dependent upon the education in that country that they've had or been exposed to. Of course, what we're looking for is to develop people who will manage, who will make decisions. And that doesn't come naturally to a lot of people, which is absolutely understandable but I think it translates directly from an early age in terms of the education system in that country.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's fair enough. So we'll take a lots of steps back from the people management and look at the larger picture of how you're making investment decisions. And generally let's kind of start with how did Poseidon end up this diversified across all of these different countries? Was that
speaker-1: Interestingly, Poseidon was set up as a family office originally whilst I was leaving the army, but we took advantage of where I was and where I had served. So the initial implementation of the group in terms of real estate was into the former Yugoslavian countries, ⁓ starting on the Croatian coast, moving to Serbia and then moving into Bosnia, Slovenia. Reason why that was is quite an interesting story. We were there doing operational tours in Bosnia. At the end of those tours, we had a lot of displaced people from the north of Bosnia, south of Bosnia, Republic of Srpska, and the Federation. And there's a lot of people living in each other's real estate in their houses. We understood and started to get to understand, almost like a pseudo-lawyer, how the land registry system worked. That enabled us to then look at and make contacts at government level. To understand the cadaster, which is the name of the land registry there. And that map presented the opportunity on the Croatian coast that I identified to anchor the real estate projects at a very early stage because I had a lot of knowledge alongside the contacts to then start the tourist side of the investment business into Bournemouth Yugoslavia. So that was opportunity driven by experiences within the military. In the same way on the security, I was fortunate enough to spend a year in Argentina in South America, where I was training the division that was going on a peace support operation with the UN to Haiti. That exposed me again to opportunities in South America. So with those two anchors, the family office, my brother Oliver Hurley, we then strategized that we would anchor on that. But then look at various opportunities when they presented themselves. And rather than specifically looking at how and when, we looked at supplementary opportunities where they presented themselves, but importantly, where we could add value to our business at the same time. So interestingly, the manpower business evolved because we needed manpower, because there was a shortage of manpower within our development company. Whilst we were providing manpower. ⁓ to our own companies, of course there was an opportunity to provide it to other companies that required that. It's more presenting opportunities that presented themselves, analyzing those opportunities where they can supplement our current business, future business, and utilising the different offices and understanding that we have in different jurisdictions. And I think that's important to say as well. You know, we are Wary of overexpanding too quickly, going into different territories that we don't understand. Of course, we do that and we analyze that through what we spoke about earlier in terms of risk, in terms of reward. But I think essentially it has grown for a reason and is very much deliberate in the approaches and the understanding based upon experience and trusted people and offices where we operate.
speaker-0: It sounds very natural in a way. Instead of you looking at the map and saying, I want to go to this country, it sounds like it really just grew out of the needs of the businesses that you had and the experience with that with your different chores that you were describing. That's great. I think there's a lot to learn for listeners who are looking to either build across jurisdictions or already have setups that are spanning international borders. You talk a lot about Poseidon acting as a principal as well, rather than an intermediary. You put down capital alongside the partner. of the company. Why do you do that? And how does that change the advice that you give your investors?
speaker-1: I think if we concentrate on one sector, it's easier to explain it when we look at real estate and let's look at real estate, not in former Yugoslavia, let's look at how we entered the market in the Middle East and specifically in Dubai. We came here, we identified an opportunity, we put our own capital in, we've invested a lot of family office funds, and we've developed a business to enable us to work within a jurisdiction that we wanted to work ⁓ alongside. Current partners that then came to us, of course, they get a lot more confidence if they see that we have got a strategy, that we've been successful. We can show them how we operate, that we have a track record, that we have risked our own money. That aside, of course, if people are seeing that, they have confidence to follow our strategy. They can see how we differentiate ourselves within a market, specifically in this market, which is actually we we very much enjoy working in the UAE in Dubai for various reasons. But when you're putting your own money in, especially alongside investors, of course it instills confidence. ⁓ and people can see the results previously with the track record. So I think naturally, rather than being a broker sitting there, it means that you do have ground truth, that people understand that there is transparency in your advice. that you are standing beh behind your own advice, of course, and you can demonstrate very clearly where you've been successful. And don't get me wrong, Sebastian, of course, we do learn from our mistakes and we learn from them very quick. And we need to be open, honest and agile to that, because no organization is perfect, but it's how one reacts to a mistake. And that's all down to the planning and contingency to make sure that alongside that and as we progress a project in any set So that we have contingency plans so that the final results will be achieved. And again that comes back to our early conversations about military planning, which is central to every military plan the contingency planning to achieve your mission.
speaker-0: Would you mind describing a moment where you made such a mistake without any disclosing any confidential information, of course? But what happened and what did you learn? What were the conclusions that you drew?
speaker-1: We're talking about mistakes, we have a plan and we are planning for mistakes. Mistakes will be, and when I say mistakes, I'm not talking within the company. These are identified risks which have evolved and consolidated into having to take a different course of action. So, as an example, we had a platform here where we were investing into a number of asset classes. Now the asset classes that we invest into they consist of number one, off plan properties, number two, distress properties, number three, secondary, which is ready built income producing. Because the market evolved and has changed so quickly, we did make initially, based upon advisory of brokers, a number of, I would say poor investments because of the advice that we've been given in terms of off plan, over inflated prices without understanding the exit. The exit that we've been explained, the information that we get got given was incorrect. However, we had a contingency plan whereas we could cross fertilize the assets and actually turn them into distress deals, whereas the legal situation was challenged because of the information we were given and we understood that there was a challenge to the contracts that we'd signed to evolve the payment plans to negotiate with the developer, which then changed the whole outcome in terms of when we had to pay, which then enabled us to renegotiate the payment plan to get back to the returns that we'd expected in the first place. When I called the same mistakes, it was yes, contingency planning against not being able to achieve the returns that we expected in first order, on the understanding on entry that we were and understood the risk and had a plan in place to mitigate against that.
speaker-0: Wonderful. Thank you for that example. And I think that's ⁓ probably something not all business owners think about all of the time when they're stuck in the weeds of running their businesses and solving the problems that are currently on their desk is actually really working on those contingency planning. That kinda leads me to the headlines of the region have been a bit difficult this year, especially in the Gulf, Dubai. But you're still committing capital there, you're still very much based there, ⁓ seem very bullish still on the region. So what are you seeing that the headlines aren't? ⁓
speaker-1: The end of the day, it's not what the headlines aren't seeing. UAE, it's leadership. There is a lot of noise in the property market dating back before the current troubles. Lots of things have not changed here. We have one of the strongest leadership here is an asset in itself. It's one of the best governments in the world, as far as I'm concerned. It's decisive, adaptable, it's intelligent. It's Has the ability to make long-term decisions and it's always delivered on. It acknowledges in each cycle where there's been a downturn, where there has been problems. That dates back to 2008. There was a problem with the development market, it addressed at by land department and RERA, which is two regulating bodies in property, how to protect investors. So the reaction of this government, whether it be in the property sector, whether it be to economic problems, is Paramount in the success. And I think we've seen that now. The reaction here to everything that has happened has been exemplary. When you say, What am I seeing, what other people aren't seeing, I think a lot of people are still seeing what I am seeing. We have a huge amount of investment still coming into this country beyond the property itself, which of course has been difficult at times. But we are members of lots of business clubs here. ⁓ With a large number of CEOs, CFOs. By and large, of course, what has happened since February has not affected the long-term decisions of companies who are either relocating here or opening offices here. That is happening on a daily basis. If people were actually not seeing what we're seeing, you wouldn't be seeing that, if that makes sense. We're very happy with it, and the record proves it completely, and the data confirms it as well. I mean, when you look at The property market itself. I mean, I think it's a hundred and fourteen billion dollars of property transactions this year today. And you know, agencies are holding their ratings. The region really has been in untouched. Comes down to leadership, strong governance. We're not worried by what happens. Unfortunately, I think the rest of the world is getting more affected by what's happening here, because whether it be from an economic or security perspective, I always use the analogy, it's like chucking a stone in a pond. The ripple effect will be felt on the outside at a later date in terms of time. And we can see that translating across to the markets. So the ability for the government to react here to what's happened, their long term vision actually means that we are absolutely secure here. And I put that down to the government itself and the leadership here. I think a lot of people are seeing it, Sebastian. People aren't changing course. And I think the media itself, of course, media are media, and they report what People want to hear, not what is reality.
speaker-0: course. And I think and I appreciate that insight. It still bears saying though, I think because if you're based in the Gulf or you've lived there for a long time, there is this certain confidence that exists ⁓ if you interacted with the region. I think that partially and you can contradict me if I'm wrong on that or if you have other relationships who say differently, I think that people who are not familiar as familiar with the region tend to listen a bit more to the headlines rather than understanding the reality that is there. So I do still think For our audiences who aren't as familiar with Dubai or as familiar with the U United Arab Emirates and the Gulf, it's great to get your perspective because you're based there, you're committed there.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I look at it very objectively as well, because I'm not anchored here. We have businesses all around the world. I'm very objective when it comes to the analysis of what goes on here. So with transparency, when we're talking about it, and you're absolutely correct, Sebastian, on what you said. We have a lot of clients who were worried, and of course, we had to explain this. So we produce facts, figures based upon security. based upon safety, we're still in the UAE in the safest place in the world. And that's safest economically and from a physical security side. And that was during the conflict time as well. So of course you're absolutely correct. I take it for granted and it might be and you may think, well, you're ex military, so you look at things very differently. And of course when there were drones flying, it was very worrying for a lot of people, not so much if you've got that experience. Because it's not something that you worry about having the experience that you've had on operations, but the way it was dealt with, and it comes back to the strong leadership in the same way. But again, when we're looking at an investment wise, I do encourage people to take a step back, look at it, look at the headline figures. You know, everything that we do as a company and we analyze very clearly here, like everywhere else, but here we have our own data engines. our own technology where the property and the analysis that we look at is not what's been reported. We have here a system that was set up that's worth touching upon when we're looking at the economics and this sector specifically, which is obviously what we've invested into. There is a data system here that was set up where every single transaction on day of completion is registered in a government office. And that data is accessible to everybody to see what is Happening that day, which allows you to actually look at the market in real time. And that means that when we are talking to and offering advice to our investors, that type of data and that type of confidence does allow us, I suppose, to give different real-time opinions on the economics of property that people and other people might not have. or be exposed to. I do understand your question and it's very good point, Sebastian, in terms of what you're saying. But that's engagement knowledge and I don't take that for granted and I understand, you know, subjective opinions and people's concerns, but it's how we counteract that and get real time intelligence again. We're going a full circle. So
speaker-0: Exactly. Yeah. Going to to getting intelligence, I wanna get a little bit more personal. You hold a British citizenship, you're a part of or based in the Gulf or in Dubai. On paper, you kind of have everything that a citizenship is supposed to provide. A good traveler freedom, a high rank passport, as we would say in our industries. What made you think otherwise? What made you become a client of Vansis and what made you look at a second citizenship?
speaker-1: I've got residency in UE. That's conditional. Citizenship isn't. Yes, we do have British citizenship. I think coming to Bances, it's a second citizenship for me is a contingency plan. Again, it's not an exit. Making sure that I have that, it's not about leaving anywhere. It's more of an option rather than been tied down, no one knows what's going to happen in the future. So, you know, diversifying across assets, currency, jurisdictions in business, having that contingency with a second citizenship is obviously not just a nice to have, but critical if you're looking at contingency planning for family and personal. So that's the way I look at it.
speaker-0: How long was it before you acted? How long did you kind of ponder this decision in terms of the research process? What kind of intelligence did you gather before you decided to invest in a second citizenship?
speaker-1: I said, I wanted a second citizenship. We had very good advice from Bansis. They engaged with us. We asked a lot of questions, probably a lot of very difficult questions, based upon again our planning. So it was then tying down what would best suit us in terms of which citizenship and where. I think it was an engagement of about six months. Yes, it was a rigorous betting pro after that stage as well when we tied down where we wanted. go to. St. Lucia made sense for a number of reasons, but it was the integration with Ancis in the first point, making the decision and then working through obviously the vetting. And you know better than I, Sebastian, it is quite rigorous and not difficult, quite the opposite. It's all to do with how it's explained and how one's guided. But we were very happy with that. So in the same way we look at our own service presiders, fantasys obviously came up Trump's when it came to the programme and the services that were provided to us because I'm ⁓ quite difficult when it comes to the due diligence that I require to make these decisions. So ⁓ it was seamless and very successful.
speaker-0: Thank you. And I did want to touch on that because I you are working in the business of advice as well. ⁓ and so is Vance Capitals. When you were looking at who you're gonna work with on this process, what were you looking for? What were your assessment criteria if you wanna put it in such a structured way? Well first
speaker-1: At the company itself, I make sure that my team has done the basic due diligence on the company standing, where it sits, where and how it's transacted, how long it's been operating for. Step number one: the basic due diligence on any company. Unfortunately, there are in lots of countries companies that don't have experience that won't deliver, and a lot of companies that are set up not to deliver as we know. So the very basics is there that anybody will conduct. On a service provider. When it then comes down to me to work with a company, whether that be on a personal basis or for the team, it's then looking at the integration and communication. And within that integration and communication, I think it becomes very clear very quickly in terms of how they react, the information that's been given, how quickly responses are received. And actually, importantly, then I always have face to face meetings. I fly around the world continually because. I don't believe in online meetings. I like online meetings as a interim when one can't be there. Face to face for me, one can break down brick walls very quickly that might be created through non human interaction. So to that way I do sit down with the principles face to face of service providers to make sure that we're all aligned as a business to business, specifically when it comes to Van Sys, of course, you know, went sat down in the office is to understand who was going to facilitate the process and that we're all happy and we could communicate that. And I think what's important for me always is a company telling me no. Somebody telling me that they can do everything and it's going to be done without problems causes a big concern for me. ⁓ because there's always going to be problems. And I think the clients, the way that we look at it, highlighting problems in advance and explaining where there may be problems actually encourages me and gives me confidence, not the other way around.
speaker-0: 'Cause you can build a contingency plan as well with the advisor. Absolutely correct. Amazing. Thank you for those insight and thank you for allowing us to get a little bit personal as well and digging into your personal decisions there. I have one last question before we end, which is really looking at the future, looking how you've built Poseidon so far, how you've set up your life across jurisdictions with contingency plans. What are you building toward now?
speaker-1: I think we're aligning and restructuring businesses because we do grow. And I think at the moment in the interim, I'm going through a strategic review of how the businesses look, making sure that each office is one standard across every business in every country, which is what we've tried from the beginning, but that constantly needs to be evaluated and evolved. In terms of growth, we will not, or hopefully will not, because I do like new opportunities, looking at new opportunities when they're presented, if they make sense. business, but I think it's consolidating on the proven capabilities of the company itself. We have invested into technology, we continue to invest into technology. I think that that needs to be integrated to understand how the whole world is moving and to enable us to keep ahead of competition, but also to approve and to utilize that in terms of best practices in the business itself. Beyond that, in terms of legacy, I'm not about legacy so much. You know, we have other interests personally. We've got a charity where it evolved from the earthquake in Nepal. I have 11 girls at an hour of an age that we're looking after them. That side of it and the charity side is something over the next 20 years that's going to be paramount with my two sons to take forward and to advise them into their twenties, into A difficult world which has been presented at the moment. I think alongside family charity working with the business, I think there's a lot to do in an ever-changing world now. I don't think we can look at 20 years at the moment. ⁓ I think with the world changing as it is, we're reassessing on a monthly basis at the moment, but consolidating on what we
speaker-0: Amazing. Yeah. There's a lots of work to be done and lots to look forward to. Matt, thank you so much. Thank you for your insights. Thank you for your time. And I'm sure that our listeners will really value this conversation.
speaker-1: Sebastian, thank you very much as well.
