WEBVTT
00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:11.279
Welcome to the Talking Engagement Podcast.
00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:21.120
I'm your host, Amy Berry, and in this episode I'll be talking with Dana Fisher and Casey Duck, two amazing educators from Valentine Public School.
00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:27.679
I first heard about their work when I was sent a video that they made with their students about the engagement continuum.
00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:37.200
In the video, the students explained the different forms of engagement and disengagement and acted them out so that others could see what it looks like in their classrooms.
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:40.479
I especially loved seeing one of the students play me, Mrs.
00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:43.200
Berry, as the teacher in their classroom.
00:00:43.520 --> 00:01:00.399
Not only was this a creative and fun way of supporting their community to learn about engagement, it was also a great example of the magic that can happen when we work in partnership with students to build a shared vision for learner engagement across the school community.
00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:03.520
I'm excited to find out more about their engagement journey.
00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:05.840
So let's dive into the conversation.
00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:08.560
Alright, well, welcome.
00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:10.239
Thank you for joining us.
00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:12.640
And I'm really excited to meet you.
00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:14.319
It's the first time we've met.
00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:18.879
And even more excited to hear about the amazing work that you've been doing.
00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:32.640
So for people who are listening, I first was introduced to your work when I got sent a video that your amazing children made, uh, with a lot of help from you.
00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:33.760
I'm I'm tipping.
00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:39.920
Um, but uh it was just such a joy to watch what your students had put together.
00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:44.239
So I'll um I won't spoil it, but I'll let you uh share a little bit about that.
00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:51.760
But maybe you can start by just telling us a little bit about yourselves um and the work that you do and the school that you're at.
00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:53.200
Go on and go.
00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:57.519
Um well, my name's Dana, uh, Dana Fisher.
00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:06.000
I'm currently the stage two assistant principal here at Valentine Public School, and we have about 510 students.
00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:08.400
Uh I have 25 in my class this year.
00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:15.680
I have a year four, and yeah, I'm I'm in charge of the stage two team, which consists of about nine staff members.
00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:21.520
We have a few job shares going, and um 156 kids on my stage.
00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:24.400
And I'm a mum of three.
00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:35.039
I have a near 20-year-old, an 18-year-old, and a nearly 16-year-old, and um, and a dog, little Scooby, he's very cute.
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:52.479
This year has been um quite a big year of just things outside of school and inside of school, and just doing that whole juggle act of teacher, mum, all that, and being around and all the extra things that a school throws your way and you jump off board.
00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:57.280
I've been teaching for about 21 years on and off.
00:02:57.360 --> 00:02:59.439
I had my children in amongst that time as well.
00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:03.199
But I've now currently been at Valentine for the last 10 years.
00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:21.759
And I just I was relieving AP for the last three, and then last year I was at um very successful and very privileged to take over from an ex-staff member who was retiring at the time, and she had to relinquish her position, went to merit selection, and I got that in the role of AP.
00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:27.199
So this is my first official year of doing that role as a substantial AP.
00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:29.120
And yeah, it's a great school.
00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:31.199
I actually grew up in Valentine myself.
00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:36.000
I didn't come to Valentine Public School, but I lived here from when I was four till I was 19.
00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:41.280
And um, so I've known the area for quite a long time, and it's just it's a beautiful part of the world.
00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:48.560
Lake Macquarie, right near this huge lake down the road, and um yeah, the kids are beautiful and the staff are amazing.
00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:51.199
And yeah, that's me in a nutshell.
00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:53.039
Great, okay, great.
00:03:53.360 --> 00:04:00.159
Um, I'm currently a year five teacher, so I'm on stage three this year, and I've been at Valentine's since 2012.
00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:04.000
I did my internship at this school, and they kind of couldn't get rid of me after that.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:08.560
And um, in I think it was 2021, I got a permanent position.
00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:11.919
So I've kind of just been here ever since 2012.
00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:18.879
Um, I spend most of my time on stage two and stage three, so kind of working with the the older kids in the school.
00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:21.839
And um, yeah, it's a it's a beautiful school to work at.
00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:23.839
I'm very, very lucky to be here.
00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:24.480
Great.
00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:24.879
Yeah.
00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:25.759
Okay.
00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:33.680
So um I know it's clear that you've been doing a lot of work around engagement with your students.
00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:52.800
Maybe you can take me back a little bit um and and give us an insider of what was going on at the school that um kind of inspired you to want to get more involved in um this concept of engagement and improving the engagement of your students at the school.
00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:53.680
Yep.
00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:59.360
Um, yeah, so this probably all kicked off, honestly, in about 2021.
00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:08.800
We were involved in a bit of a department initiative, I'd probably call it, um, where we just kind of had to take a bit of a deep dive into our school and what was happening at the time.
00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:14.399
And one of the things that we came up with as a collective staff was that uh we had really passive learners.
00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:16.000
We've got really well-behaved kids.
00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:20.639
They are the most beautiful students that you can probably ever teach in your life.
00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:23.199
Um, but very passive.
00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:32.000
Uh and I think right then and there, we discovered a little bit of a maybe a bit of a problem around engagement with our students.
00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:33.920
And that was back in 2021.
00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:38.959
Um, after that, so kind of fast forward a few years, we kind of didn't know what to do with that.
00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:46.079
We kind of discovered that we would had rich discussions with all our staff members, but we didn't really know where to go with that piece of information.
00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:48.800
Like, how do we increase engagement in our school?
00:05:49.199 --> 00:06:02.720
Um, fast forward to 2023, uh, and the two of us, plus um our boss Lee Sorens, we um were involved with instructional rounds with Steph Salazar, Steffi Salazar.
00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:07.120
And that's kind of when we started this journey that we're on right now.
00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:08.399
Okay.
00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:18.879
It's really interesting um how many schools uh come to me with the challenge of passive students.
00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:30.959
Um, you know, I I I actually rarely get schools come to me saying, Oh, you know, our kids are climbing out the windows and swinging from, you know, the ceiling fans and all of that, or we have high levels of disruption.
00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:45.759
And um, more often than not, it is this kind of dissatisfaction with the level of uh, I guess, passive students who are compliant um and don't really cause any problems.
00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:56.480
But um, I think all the adults uh suddenly um get the feeling that they're not as engaged as what we we think they might be.
00:06:56.800 --> 00:06:58.639
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly us.
00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:05.199
We we're compliant students, um, they're in the classrooms, they're listening, they're doing all the right things.
00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:09.439
But yeah, there was just kind of this uh yeah, passive learners.
00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.480
It was pretty much common across K to 6 at our school.
00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:14.720
And why do you think it that happens?
00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:18.800
You know, why why do you think that many schools find themselves in this position?
00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:22.079
It's it's a hard one.
00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:29.040
I think a lot of it these days is a lot of what the generation that we're teaching is exposed to.
00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:32.720
And so thank goodness for the the big social media ban that starts today.
00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:34.160
Yes, under 16.
00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:49.439
Um, we were only just talking about it before, saying how children are exposed to these things that are constant gratification and it's in their faces and they're if they don't like something, it's it's a swipe and get rid of and and so it's very quick to move on to the next thing.
00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:58.240
So when you're in front of a class and you're trying to do an amazing lesson and and think that you've got all the bells and whistles, not even that, but a really engaging lesson.
00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:05.839
And the children just, I don't know, they just kind of it's unless they're really loving something, they're not interested.
00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:10.079
And so I suppose you've got to really tap into their interest levels and their prior knowledge.
00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:21.680
And I think, I think as well in our community, we have like the most beautiful families, and I think kids genuinely think if they're quiet in the classroom and they're listening, that they're being good.
00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:25.600
They're being good students, which they are, they are good students.
00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:34.480
Um, I just I'm I'm not sure whether the the students knew before we started our journey with the engagement model, what does engagement actually look like?
00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:40.159
So if you don't know what engagement is or what it actually looks like, how can I be engaged?
00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:42.159
I think that was probably our problem as well.
00:08:43.120 --> 00:09:00.159
Yeah, and I I think um our research uh where we went into schools and we ran a whole bunch of focus groups with students, um, would suggest that that's exactly right, that they um they think they're doing it.
00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:12.000
You know, they they they actually think that they're doing what we want them to do by sitting quietly, by listening, by not causing a fuss, by you know, um following the rules.
00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.399
They think that that's what it's all about.
00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:22.960
And so they many of them have developed this misconception that um a good learner is somebody who is just compliant and does what they're told.
00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:35.679
Uh so I think some of them are quite shocked um or surprised when they find out that there's more to learning than passive participating.
00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:36.320
Yes.
00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:37.200
Yeah, definitely.
00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:38.960
Yeah, that's asked in a nutshell, I think.
00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:39.759
Yeah.
00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:58.240
And so um when you uh started working with Steffi and um and started looking at the continuum, um, I guess did you immediately think, well, oh, you know, maybe this is something that we, you know, we could use that could work.
00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:01.279
Here's a pathway forward to chat at solving this challenge.
00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:02.639
Yeah, definitely.
00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:08.000
So when we started our instructional rounds, it was actually the second school we went to, which was Nords Wharf.
00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:09.440
So a little shout out to them.
00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:12.240
Um, they were looking at goal setting and engagement.
00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:17.279
And when we went to their school to look at their problem of practice around that, uh, Mrs.
00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:23.120
Sorens, Casey, and myself went, wow, that's actually fits our school perfectly.
00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:26.639
When it got to our turn, we looked at student engagement.
00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:35.120
So we went really large and then quickly realized we had to probably bring it back and hone down into one main area and we went with engagement.
00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:51.360
So um But there was there was there was a light bulb moment, I think, for every every teacher in the room when we saw your model come up on the screen, and everyone went, oh my goodness, like that is like we never I never thought of it as a continuum before, as levels of engagement.
00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:59.039
I just kind of I think we put it on ourselves as as teachers and educators to go, if a class isn't engaged, I'm doing something wrong.
00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:02.480
Um, what am I not doing, or what is this less than lack?
00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:15.919
Whereas seeing it as more of a student-centered um continuum, well, what could the students be doing to move their engagement up a little bit more on the continuum?
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:16.240
Yeah.
00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:17.519
Yeah.
00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:36.799
And I I mean I've I've heard other people say similar things, you know, too, that I think it's it's completely natural that that teachers um believe that engagement is all on their shoulders, you know, that this is something that they need to do, or it's about what they do.
00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:40.799
Um, and we get that message as teachers because that's what we're told.
00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:46.639
Um, you know, we've got to hook them in, we've got to get them engaged, we've got to keep them engaged, we've got to re-engage them.
00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:57.919
Uh, and so we're given that messaging all the time as teachers, um, and and given lots of advice about strategies that we should be using to engage our students.
00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:15.440
Um, and it's true, there are lots of instructional moves that we can make as teachers that can support um and empower engagement, but what's missing there is the understanding that we don't do it you know by ourselves, that they also have a role to play.
00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:17.759
But we don't hear about that as much.
00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:19.600
No, definitely not.
00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:42.159
And I think with having the continuum that we've then adapted from yours to bring into our school, it's we've seen a shift in the way that the children also see it to say that, oh, hang on, I'm I'm only at participating, but I really need to get into that next level of investing and very clear across our school now that we've been able to embed that K to six.
00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:59.919
So we have your continuum that we adapted and then um put it in child-friendly language to then to the point where when we were having a discussion about putting into like a bit of a poster in all the rooms that maybe the language would change for cater two, but they actually said no, leave it as is.
00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:08.080
We will we will yeah, we will describe what that's about and we will teach the children what it means to be withdrawing and what it is to avoid.
00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:15.519
And um, and so that language has now come across K to 6 to the point where you can say to a child, um, okay, where are you right now?
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:17.039
Oh, I'm avoiding, right?
00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:18.879
I'll go back and start doing my work.
00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:19.759
Yeah.
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:20.240
Yeah.
00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.240
So it's been really positive.
00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:50.480
Well, so it sounds to me like um the can in your experience, the continuum um helped teachers to kind of expand their understanding of engagement um and have a little bit more uh, I guess, depth to their understanding too, rather than thinking of it just maybe as they're engaged or they're not engaged, um, to see it as something that's a little bit more nuanced.
00:13:50.639 --> 00:14:03.840
Um, and also um that for the students themselves, it gave them also a new language to think with um and to reflect with uh in terms of their own learning.
00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:05.200
Yeah, definitely.
00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:18.320
So um, so I guess my question is always I find it interesting to think about we're in a situation where um many would say, well, things are working well at this school.
00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:23.200
Look, you know, beautifully behaved children, the classrooms are probably humming along.
00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:30.720
Um, I'm going back in time here, um, and and people are achieving and there's no major issues.
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:35.600
Um, and then um you introduce this change.
00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:47.840
Were there some on staff that took a little bit longer to feel the need for a change, given that things were pretty uh, you know, not not terrible?
00:14:48.960 --> 00:15:03.440
I think I think we've um we were we were really mindful at our school to begin instructional rounds that we we didn't want to bring in too much too quickly because this was the year pretty much before or during a big curriculum change as well.
00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:05.519
So we had a lot going on in our school.
00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:22.639
So we kind of between myself, Donna and and Lee, um, there was a lot of discussion about how do we like sprinkle this in slowly so it's not wham, here's another thing that you've got to have on top of what you're already changing and and manipulating as well.
00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:31.200
Um, so it was probably done in a um over a few different staff professional learnings um sessions.
00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:38.320
And I think once we showed them the model, everyone, very similar to us when we first saw it, went, wow, that's amazing.
00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.519
Uh and then it was just go and have a trial of it in your classroom.
00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:53.919
You know, this is what we showed them a video that we found online where kids were talking about what it looks like to be in um, you know, participating, investing, driving, avoiding, withdrawing, disrupting.
00:15:54.080 --> 00:16:04.159
Um, and we just said, have a chat to your to your classes, see if, you know, bringing up these different levels and trying to get kids to self-identify where they are, if this helps.
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:14.399
And then I think it was maybe even a term later that we checked back in with everybody and just started that kind of professional chats between us to see how everyone was going.
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:20.399
It wasn't really a thing that we said, this is an additional thing that you've got to do in your classrooms, but everyone have a bit of a go.
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:33.600
And then when we came back to the next PL, everyone was raving, going, it's so good, you know, from our librarian to our RFF music teacher, everyone was saying, look, it's so good because they are doing it in the classroom.
00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:40.799
Teachers are talking about it in their individual classes, and then when they come to us, we can just kind of remind them, where are you?
00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:46.399
And it's more of a tool than you know, an additional thing that everybody has to do on top of.
00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:48.320
Um yeah.
00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:49.279
Yeah.
00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:54.799
And so did you have a core group that kind of led the work um within the school?
00:16:54.879 --> 00:17:08.160
And maybe um, I guess you know, you I I sometimes call them shining stars, and often they're the early adopters that are just really keen and kind of zoom ahead um uh, you know, under their own motivation.
00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:20.000
Um, but they they end up, you know, being quite uh a good resource for others in the school because they they're risk takers uh and they're willing to try things out first and report back and see how it goes.
00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:22.640
So did you have those people within your school?
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:27.599
We we kind of you are we we were.
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:38.400
I think because we were so fortunate enough to be part of the instructional rounds and we had that PL, um we kind of bought everything back and we would guinea pig our own classes first to then bring it back to our staff.
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:45.200
Um, and then we were fortunate enough last year that we were kept on with instructional rounds and we had two other staff members come on board.
00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:50.960
So we had our teacher librarian, um Joe, and our early stage one at the time.
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:54.480
She was early stage one assistant principal, Alyssa.
00:17:54.720 --> 00:18:05.680
So there was then four of us, and over the last year now that we've been able to bring it apart, we've got that lens of the library teacher who sees every single child across the school.
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:05.920
Yeah.
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:13.440
So she's been really positive to say the language, it's great because when they come, I'm saying the same things as what they hear in the classroom.
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:19.279
So it's not like, oh, we can muck up when we go to library because it's not the same expectations, but across the school with it.
00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:42.480
And then the same from the ES1 perspective, down with infants saying how they've started to embed it and the children are learning at such such from a young age and bring it forward to the point where even only this year in our half-yearly reports, we actually aligned our model to our reports and where it sits with the children's effort.
00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:51.200
So in our reports that go home to parents, now on that front page where it's at A to E, there's also now a little picture of our engagement continuum.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:58.079
And we've said that if they are doing the withdrawing and the disrupting and the avoiding, that is associated with low effort.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.119
If they're participating, it's that that's satisfactory.
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.839
But if they're investing and driving, that's high.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:07.759
So we've communicated that to our um our families as well.
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:12.480
And then, yeah, and then we created the video to share amongst the staff.
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:13.200
Yes.
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:17.039
Okay, so um, I mean, I we have to talk about the video now.
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:22.960
So maybe you can tell me a little bit about that um and how that came to be and what that process was like.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:24.400
It was long.
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:26.799
It was it was a lot of fun.
00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:27.519
It was lots of fun.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:28.799
Yeah, so I loved it.
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:31.440
Casey is amazing creatively.
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:36.720
Uh, she's very clever with filming and snipping things and putting things together.
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.640
Um, and this one's also in shows, so you're a bit of a drama expert.
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:47.839
Our we have an amazing drama teacher at our school, and um, unfortunately, fortunately, unfortunately, she's out this year on maternity leave.
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:54.880
So got a beautiful little baba, but needed someone to take over our acting ensemble at our school, and she does a stellar job of that.
00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:00.400
So um she came to I think me and kind of I roped you in as well.
00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:07.359
Um, but we've taken on board our acting ensemble this year to kind of keep the keep the cogs moving while she's away.
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:12.240
And we just thought, yeah, this is um, I think actually maybe someone in instruction rounds.
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:25.119
We were talking about maybe how cool it would be to get the staff video where staff actually become the students and act it out, and the kids would probably love seeing that at the start of every year when we're talking about the engagement model with our new classes.
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:32.240
Uh, and you know, as much as that would be great, it's just timing to try and get all the staff together to film something so extensive.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:36.079
So we had the opportunity once a week for about 10 weeks.
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:43.519
Yeah, for about 10 weeks uh to work with our wonderful little actors and we proposed it to them and said, Would you like to do it?
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:44.880
And they were all on board.
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:50.160
We um they all wanted to be the disruptors because we again we have very few of those.
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:51.359
Yeah, they're all beautiful kids.
00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:56.319
They're all the they'd be all the investors and the drivers in every class, of course.
00:20:56.559 --> 00:20:58.480
Uh so we had to pull names out of the hat.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:20:59.680
They all had a little role.
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:04.799
We really honed in on characterization and becoming becoming the character.
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:08.000
Um, and yeah, it kind of went from there.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:30.960
But it it took a good 10 weeks to film, and um, the kids had a ball, and yeah, we have a cool little video to show for it that we will probably get everyone to show their classes at the start of every new year, and that's a good little humorous starting point, but obviously that's the reality of a classroom as well to show this is what this is what engagement looks like across all the levels.
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:35.680
And you know, it's a good discussion starter, I think, at the start of the year.
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:36.079
Yeah.
00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:44.240
And even to only this this week, actually, I think only on Monday, we have um a spotlight on a class every week that goes out on our Facebook page.
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:46.559
Um, so the Valentine Facebook page.
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:49.759
And um, this week that was that video was shared.
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:55.200
And I think the other day it was already over like 600 views just from families in the community.
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:59.759
So and it is to say, now we've we've educated our students of what it looks like.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:17.599
Now we're educating our community and our parents to say that when that report does come home and my child is a withdrawal, and and this is the kind of things that looks in that what that levels, but now they can watch the video and go, ah, yeah, are you going to the toilet a lot?
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:18.559
Yeah.
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:24.240
Very inappropriate times, you know, we're getting to work.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:35.599
Um, and it's such a creative way of uh bringing families into the conversation too, you know, rather than just your standard newsletter.
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:45.039
Um, but you know, it is a fun creative way of sharing this information and and inviting them in um to join in.
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:55.359
Uh, and then also having it as part of your reporting shows how much you value um this work and see its connection to learning.
00:22:55.519 --> 00:23:00.319
So I think um good examples for other people too to think about too.
00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:11.359
And you know, not every school has um amazingly talented and dedicated uh teachers that want to spend 10 weeks once a week creating uh a video like this.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.680
If if they do, I encourage them to do that because I it is amazing.
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:39.359
Um but I think it's a good strategy for, especially for working with primary school age students, um, role play at the different levels of the continuum is is such a great way of kind of uh I guess testing to see how well they understand the different um forms from the continuum too.
00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:51.039
And I remember I'm just thinking about a group of year five, six teachers that told me once that they they thought that they really had it and that the kids really understood it and we were all on the same page.
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:57.119
And then they did a role play one day where they got them to um, you know, act out some of these things.
00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:08.400
And when they went to act out driving, it was all about um, you know, putting your hand up to answer a question um and um you know finishing your work quickly.
00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:22.559
And you know, it's like they reverted back to these other ideas about what it means to be a good student, um, and had and and were still, you know, on the journey of trying to understand really what driving is.
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:23.119
Yeah.
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:30.720
Even when we were filming it, when we got to the drivers, the kids did have a bit of input into how they would deliver their lines.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:36.079
And um, there was one little girl in particular, she's like, Oh, can I act like can I put mine about can I ask for feedback?
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:38.160
And we were like, Yes, that's cool.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:49.119
So and allowed them to have that little bit more of a um kind of like suggestions in for how they would act the part when they got their level of engagement and um yeah.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:25:03.599
I think next year with my new class, it would be such a powerful activity at the start of year to actually brainstorm and discuss what all the levels actually look like because there's more than what is on our poster and there's that that we display in the classroom.
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:08.799
I think there's more than what you initially think is in these levels.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:10.319
There's a lot to each one.
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:12.000
Oh, yeah, definitely.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:20.240
Um, I mean, it's it's one of the reasons why I never make posters, um, even though I'm asked all the time about posters.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:30.160
But to me, um it doesn't mean as much uh if you just buy a poster from me online and flap it on the wall.
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:30.480
Yeah.
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:35.039
Um, it runs the risk of just being another decoration that's sitting on your wall that's never used.
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:51.519
But when the children have the opportunity to um create it, yeah, co-create, co-construct it, and they can see themselves in it because they had a hand in creating it, I think that's when it starts to really come to life.
00:25:51.599 --> 00:26:06.319
So even if you start with the the basis as you as you've got there with your kind of just you know foundation, um, and then get them to join in the conversations with post-it notes and and whatever else, um, it can really come to life then.
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:14.400
And I like how people change their minds, um, which is why I like post-it notes, because you can, you know, uh move those around when you change your mind.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:23.599
But I had a school recently um uh that was on the podcast, and so they'll be part of this season as well, Mawson Primary School in Canberra.
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:32.960
And their year five, six teachers um created this great wall of engagement um with their students, and they've they've used it many times.
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:44.480
So one time, you know, they were having a difficulty in um getting the children to understand that engagement is a partnership and that everybody has a role to play.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:27:03.680
So they use this great wall of engagement to say to the students, um, you know, here here is uh here are some scenarios um about when people find it hard to engage in mathematics, you know, some challenges that people face when they're learning in maths and that might cause them to disengage.
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:19.759
Um and and now we want you to look at those um and determine for yourselves whose role is it to solve that challenge, you know, like who whose not whose problem is this, but who who fixes this problem?
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:31.119
And in the process of that, um and the conversations that they had, the students soon came to the conclusion that, well, it's not it's generally not one or the other, it's both.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:34.799
Um, that both the teacher and the student have a role to play here.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:47.599
So I think um building on a basic poster and then using it um to go deeper um uh is is a great way to go about it too.
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:53.440
Now um impact uh on the students.
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:59.440
So we've heard about um the growth of it, the evolution of the work across the school.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:05.839
Um, but what have you noticed in terms of impact just in the classroom on a daily basis?
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:07.359
You want to go?
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:08.000
I'll go.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:12.240
Yeah, I actually had I think it's sometimes it's the little the little moments.
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:20.000
Like for example, yesterday I was working with one of my, it's the end of the year, so we have to you know finalise all the all the paperwork side of things.
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:22.559
And I was working with one of my little students.
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:29.279
Um, she's one of our Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander students, and we go through the process of her PLP each year.
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:39.920
So um she makes goals, we work towards them, and at the end of the year we kind of have to do a little summary and a bit of a a reflection on her year and then draft some new goal goals for next year.
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:50.400
Uh and one of the questions on her PLP um was what basically what can you do next year to you know achieve your next year's goals?
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.000
What do you want to kind of work towards?
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:53.920
And her answer was all about engagement.
00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:00.160
And I just thought that's really powerful because it's she's connected engagement with achieving goals.
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:11.440
And I just think that when you hear students actually using the language and and saying the words, I you know, want to drive my learning a little bit more next year, um, it we know it's stuck.
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:16.880
We know it's kind of embedded into our school in a deep way when our students are actually using that language.
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:22.160
Yes, that's such a big um that it's not small at all.
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:30.319
It's actually really big because and this is why I say to people that we have to embed this every day in every lesson.
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:36.400
Um, it can't just be something that we do at the start of a term or the start of a year or on a Friday afternoon.
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:36.720
Yeah.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:52.559
It has to be daily work because we want our students to make the connection between um the actions that they take as part of engaging in a learning experience and the progress that they make in their learning.
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:54.799
And this is exactly what you're talking about here.
00:29:54.960 --> 00:30:01.759
They can see the connection between engagement and the actions that are associated with engaging and their progress in learning.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:03.119
So that's big.
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:04.079
That's very big.
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:05.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:05.519
Okay.
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:08.079
Definitely.
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:11.200
Um, I've got a few little things as well.
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:15.519
That they're probably not as lovely as that a story, but just the language.
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:22.960
I think um at the start of the year, I did sit down with my class and say, this is our what we've been learning about.
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:27.519
Brought it to the school, it's now across the um the K to six space.
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:36.559
And going into those, what Casey said before, is I actually did put my groups in to say, well, you're going to be a disruptor and you're going to be an avoider and you're going to be a withdrawal and this is what it looks like.
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:42.640
And I got them to almost act out things that they thought it would look like before I even showed them the poster.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:54.559
So um, and it was good to see that they could match up the things that were on the um on the continuum, but also just the language about if I will just see a child and I just have to eyeball them and go, where you at?
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:56.559
And they'll just go, Yeah, I'm participating.
00:30:56.720 --> 00:30:56.960
Yeah.
00:30:57.440 --> 00:30:58.640
I need to push myself.
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:11.119
And then also uh in particular with writing, we have something in our school that we also bought in through a few years ago, we did a lot of project-based learning through a thing called Project Mess.
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:23.440
So we kept both Casey and I were very fortunate when we were both up on stage three together, and um, that was amazing work where we did a lot of that hooking students in and having like secret excursions.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:26.559
So the engagement back then was phenomenal.
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:31.920
And um, one of the big things with writing was what we called was a going for green, going for gold.
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:37.359
So we would co-construct, it was basically like your learning intentions and success criteria.
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:37.599
Yeah.
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:45.920
So you would co-construct what the children, okay, say if it was a narrative, what needed to be in an orientation, and the students would tell us.
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:49.519
So we would make that together and say, right, well, that is the going for green.
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:54.240
So if we then have that conversation, well, that's you participating, it's it's okay.
00:31:54.400 --> 00:32:01.839
But if you want to go for gold and you want to then link yourself into be in an investor and a driver, they have that option.
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:16.559
And our boss always does talk about that you can't have drivers in every single KLA because I might go to science and that may not be my passion, but I will drive my learning when I go to Kappa.
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:25.759
And yes, I will do what I I think that I love and I enjoy, and I'll um push myself that little bit further in the subjects that I like.
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:33.680
So I think for my class in particular, it's just been about the language and getting them to want to move to that next step.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:37.680
So yeah, and I think um, I mean, this is the challenge.
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:40.799
Uh, and and I've talked to many teachers about this, yeah.
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:47.519
We're we're people and we're not motivated and interested in every single thing that we learn um to the same extent.
00:32:47.759 --> 00:33:06.880
So um I think unlike you know, learning to read or um learning to, you know, add and subtract and all of that, um, just because we know how to drive and have demonstrated that we can drive does not mean that we will drive all the time in every situation.
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:16.799
So engagement fluctuates, um, it fluctuates from moment to moment sometimes, um, as well as across lessons and across different contexts.
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:42.640
So I think um one bit of advice that I always give to teachers is yes, you might have a student who is not that interested in a particular subject, and so um they're not as inclined to want to really invest um and put effort in and get highly engaged compared to another subject.
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:53.519
But what we can do is start to talk in terms of driving as a collection of daily, small daily behaviors and practices.
00:33:53.759 --> 00:34:13.360
And when we start to see it like that, we can see that every lesson, no matter what it is, and whether I'm super interested in it or not, every lesson is an opportunity to practice some of those driving skills, you know, even if it's just checking the success criteria and and monitoring how I'm going against success success criteria.
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:17.920
That's a driving act, and you know, an action of a driver, a driving behavior.
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:26.639
And so even in a subject that I'm not really, really into, I still have a chance to practice my driving behaviors um and get really good at them.
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:32.400
Um and so there's there's small, there's small driving, yeah, you know, and then there's big driving as well.
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:40.719
So I think being aware of those daily small acts of driving um is a good way to think about it too.
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:41.199
Yeah.
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:54.880
And making a goal, like I actually thought moving into next year, like it would be really um interesting for students to maybe have something on their desk even and at the start of a lesson, what is your goal for this lesson in terms of your engagement?
00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:56.639
Make an engagement goal.
00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:00.960
Um especially for the subjects that they don't like love, love.
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:05.440
You know, if if they are not a lover of maths, what can you do today?
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:06.480
Let's write it down.
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:09.679
And it might be just a you know, a classroom routine.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:14.400
Quickly jot it down on your little post-it note or a little whiteboard on your desk.
00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:20.480
What can you do today to try and you know invest or drive in your learning, even if it's a subject that you don't love?
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:28.960
Bump it up just a little bit from where um I my comfy spot that I'm gonna it's great.
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:48.239
You know, I've got another um school that I went to visit, and I think it was it was either a year four class or a year five class, but every child had a continuum on their desk, and um, and their teacher gave uh each child had three counters, three different colored counters, um, labeled one, two, and three.
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:54.159
And they used those um for their three check-ins um for engagement in a lesson.
00:35:54.400 --> 00:36:02.159
So at the very start, it's like an initial check-in, you know, sort of a readiness to engage kind of check-in um at the start.
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:10.559
Um, and then at a at a designated point, you know, um along the way, stop, check-in again with number two, and then at the end, number three.
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:21.840
And it was a really interesting uh way of uh visualizing um the fluctuations that we see in engagement across just a 40-minute lesson.
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:31.679
Um, but also, you know, for the teacher to reflect um and connect, you know, well, what was happening at time one and time two and time three?
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:39.440
Um, was there something about the feature of the lesson and what was happening at those different times that maybe played into the shifts in engagement?
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:47.360
Um, so I think uh such a small thing could be quite a powerful um bit of feedback for the teacher and and for the students too.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:48.400
Yeah, I love that.
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:57.119
And it's visual, so it's it's easy for you to kind of walk around and kind of sure quick to go and check on your quick quickly put your counter on.
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:01.599
Yeah, and then wander around wander around and say, Oh, I'm losing them.
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:02.800
Time to move on.
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:03.760
Yeah.
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:04.880
We've been sitting too long.
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:07.440
Good feedback for the teachers as well.
00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:07.840
Yeah.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:08.239
Yeah.
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:10.239
Without them sitting there going, oh, I'm bored.
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:11.360
Yeah, exactly.
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:21.039
Okay, so I always end um with top tips uh for other people.
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:30.880
So thinking about other people who might be just starting their journey or in the middle of it and looking for some motivation to keep going or some inspiration.
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:37.039
What would be your top tips for teachers or schools who are embarking on this?
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:41.280
I'd I'd probably start off by saying if you're just starting, take it slow.
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:48.639
Um, have the discussions uh with your staff members and get everybody a little bit on board, a little bit interested.
00:37:48.800 --> 00:38:05.119
I mean, we did quite a few sessions both in 2021 and in 20 um 23, where we basically proposed some questions to the staff that we kind of knew that the answers would be that a bit of disengagement and a bit of passive learners.
00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:17.840
So that, you know, everyone, we're we're collectively seeing our problem of practice at our school is this, and what can we do to kind of um yeah, make small steps to try and you know make it better in our school.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:35.280
Uh, and then yeah, just uh take it, I think take it slow and keep checking in with your staff members, keep asking how they're going, if you can, if we can help you in any way, um, trying strategies like I love the the continuum on the desk or making a goal at the start of the lesson.
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:37.840
And yeah, it's it's a definitely a journey.
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:42.639
I it's not something that you can just fix in one term, it's kind of a long term for us.
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:52.400
It was I even I think I heard Lee Soren say at one point, our boss, um, this is like a five-year journey at least to try and get to that point of student agency.
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:53.760
Yeah.
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:54.159
Okay.
00:38:54.320 --> 00:39:00.800
Um and building on what Casey said, I would also say consistency across the school.
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:09.280
And once you have that buy-in from staff and and taking it very slow to be able to have it in, and we are quite a large school.
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:10.960
I mean, a medium-sized school.
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:20.960
I know there are schools out there that uh larger than us, but having that consistency across K to 6, so all staff know the expectations and the children know the expectations.
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:31.119
Um, and then also one thing that we have all said with our instructional round journey was um someone coined the phrase built in, not bolted on.
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:43.519
So making sure that it's it's not an extra, it's just those mindful tweaks of little things that you do in the classroom every day that um yeah, it's not something that you have to add on.
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:44.480
You're already doing it.
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:48.880
It's just make the little changes and um make the biggest impact, I think.
00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:51.760
Yeah, so that's probably what I would say.
00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:54.559
Great advice, great advice.
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:57.280
Um, any questions for me?
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:09.679
I would actually love to know where um where your journey started from to be able to get into what made you create the continuum and and go down that pathway.
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:20.159
Um well, um my interest in engagement uh began with my very first job in a school over 20 years ago.
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:29.840
I happened to be in charge of the, and if you've read my book, you probably read about this, but I was in charge of the responsible thinking classroom at a local secondary school.
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:38.639
Um I called it the naughty kids' room um because that's basically what it, you know, they when they got kicked out of their class, they ended up in my room.
00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:54.559
And it was just such a powerful experience for me because it really gave me an insight into um a different experience of school than I had myself as a child growing up.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:41:14.880
And uh, I just felt so passionate about these students um and how much they were being let down by a system that seemed happy for them to turn up every day and just spend a lot of time out of their classrooms, um, a lot of time feeling like failures and like they didn't belong and nobody wanted them there.
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:21.039
Um, and so that has really stuck with me, um, thinking we this must be a better way.
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:25.920
I, you know, um, and it stuck with me all through my teaching uh as well.
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:35.760
And then um at some point I took a break from teaching, uh, went on long service leave because we moved from Queensland down to Victoria.
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:43.119
And um I I, you know, I was doing some supply teaching, kind of just at, you know, at a bit of a loss thinking, what am I gonna do?
00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:50.480
Um and I on a whim decided, well, maybe I'll go back to university and um and I'll get my master's.
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:54.159
And my two children were at university themselves at the time.
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:57.440
So all three of us were studying at the same time.
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:16.559
Um, did my masters at Melbourne Uni looking at um flatlining of top quartile students um in classrooms and and uh in particular what kind of classrooms um I guess support everyone to keep making progress, um including those top quartile students.
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:33.119
And um, and I started to get a glimmer into these really amazing classrooms where you know high expectations, um a level of challenge for everyone, uh, self-regulated learning, you know, all this kinds of magic stuff.
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:39.679
And um and it was from there that I immediately went into my PhD, thinking I want to keep going with this.
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:47.760
And I'm really interested in classrooms um that support uh high levels of engagement in learning.
00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:50.559
And so that was how I started.
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:58.079
Now, when I started researching in engagement, I found out wow, you know, everybody's um looking at engagement.
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:04.159
And we know a lot about engagement from the perspective of researchers and academics.
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:16.159
Um but um it may it seems to be making no difference because we've been looking at this for like decades and decades, and it's the same problem over and over again.
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:23.519
Kids get less and less engaged in school as they go through school, and that pattern has been going on since I don't know how long.
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:38.239
Um so maybe the problem is that the way that researchers and academics look at it is not fit for purpose for classroom teachers and and their students.
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:50.719
Um, maybe you know, somebody needs to look at their perspective and um and try to create something that's more fit for purpose for the classroom and you know, daily lessons.
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:53.119
So that's really where it started.
00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:56.559
Um, and it started simply with going out and talking to teachers.
00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:59.440
You know, at the time, John Hattie was my supervisor.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.639
And I remember him saying to me at the top, I said, no, nobody's really doing this.
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:13.039
I can find very few studies where they actually go and ask teachers and talk to teachers and even fewer that want to talk to students about it.
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:14.960
So he said, Well, there you go.
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:18.159
Off you go, go and do some interviews, go and start talking to people.
00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:20.960
So so that's how it started.
00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:28.719
And the continuum was created pretty early on in my PhD, just based on those initial interviews.
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:35.840
Um, and then I continued to work on it doing a bunch of observations, um, student survey, you know, things like that.
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:48.239
So um, yeah, I I think it it really just reflects all of the different ways that teachers described engagement and disengagement to me based on their experiences in the classroom.
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:54.159
And that's probably why when teachers look at it, they find it easy to pick up and run with.
00:44:54.320 --> 00:45:02.719
They it's it it's not really a struggle because it's it grows out of the teachers' experiences in the classroom.
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:03.760
Yeah, definitely.
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:06.719
That sounds that is that's really cool.
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:08.639
Um, I have one other question.
00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:24.880
Um, given your extensive knowledge of engagement and the amazing people that you work with and talk to, um, do you have any tips for us, as in going forward from where we are now um in our school, you know, a little bit of our school now and where we've kind of you know progressed to it?
00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:28.159
Just any tips for us moving forward with engagement?
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:43.920
I mean, I I'm pretty confident that um that you will continue to grow it um and continue to be on this journey for quite a while because you know your mindset is there.
00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:56.960
You you're curious, um, you're excited about it, um, you you take risks, um, you can see the successes, um, and and I can hear, you know, that the motivation for it has grown over time.
00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:00.079
So that's got all the ingredients to keep going.
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:03.440
Um, so I would say, you know, keep doing what you're doing.
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:19.199
And then the other thing is, I I mean, I'm always a fan of constantly trying to think about how can we um uh involve the children um and young people even more than we are now.
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:42.480
So how how can we um I guess really lean into this partnership idea and to the point where we have we have a certain challenge that we're facing as a school in terms of um engagement, um, calling a committee uh of students together to weigh in and say, look, here's some data that we've collected.
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:52.559
Um here's a great experience for them to dive into some data with the help of their teachers and weigh in with their perspective and their insights.
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:54.559
You know, what do you think is going on here?
00:46:54.800 --> 00:47:01.360
What would you suggest as some possible um actions that we could take?
00:47:01.519 --> 00:47:03.760
Um, asking for feedback from them.
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:06.880
Um, what else could we do with this?
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:18.000
Uh you know, they they have amazing ideas, uh, but they don't often get asked um to weigh in in important decisions at the school level.
00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:18.800
Yeah.
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:36.719
That that actually just reminds me of last year with my class, I had a 3-4, and um, at the end of the year, I actually did a Google Forms and I said, I want you to rate yourselves in where your level of engagement was in English and in maths and in PDHPE.
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:48.320
And it was just a Google form, so it came out as a big pie chart, and um, and it was really interesting because I then myself put that aligned to what I gave them for their efforts, and it married up.
00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:51.840
So yeah, it just remembered, I just remembered that I did that last year.
00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:55.039
I might have to do that with my children in the next week and see how these guys go.
00:47:55.519 --> 00:48:03.519
Yeah, well, I think I mean you've already taken the step of um connecting the continuum with your effort marks.
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:06.639
Um, and I I know other schools that have done that as well.
00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:10.639
Um, and I I mean I think schools often have to report on effort.
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:27.840
Um, and I I think we can all um comfortably say that um it's wishy-washy at best, generally, you know, you uh it's not a scientific method um that we use as teachers for you know, giving an effort, Mark.
00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:37.039
Um so I think schools recognize that here here is an opportunity to maybe put a little bit more rigor behind it, a little bit more oomph behind it.
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:52.000
Um, but uh, but I you know, I would like to also understand, well, how how does the student themselves um evaluate their engagement uh in learning in in these different subjects?
00:48:52.079 --> 00:49:02.000
You know, if if we're asking them to be experts on themselves and get better at knowing themselves, but then I'd like to hear them evaluate their their own engagement too.
00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:08.000
I find um when you do ask the kids to be self-critical, um they are very honest.
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:08.320
Yeah.
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:10.079
I mean, yeah, our students are.
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:20.239
Um, and I know when COVID was around, uh back in 2020, I think we had a very modified report where we actually did send home a report in that year.
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:31.039
I think correct me if I'm wrong, but we had self-reflection of where the children thought they were as far as um their behavior and and then next to the teachers, and we had them sitting side by side.
00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:35.920
So to see what the kids did for themselves and then what the teachers observed throughout the year.
00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:45.039
Um yeah, so and then I I was talking to another teacher from a another local school, and she was saying how they've been looking at in engagement as well.
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:53.760
So they've kind of embedded it into their school this year, and they've actually got rid of the word effort in their reports, and they have actually now talked just and said it's just engagement.
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:58.079
So they do A to E and their engagement in those subjects.
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:01.760
So yeah, you think maybe that's the next pathway down.
00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:02.639
So yeah.
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:03.440
Yeah.
00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:13.599
Well, yeah, it's a journey, and I think most schools that I talk to uh talk in terms of the evolution, you know, of their journey, and it just keeps evolving.
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:21.199
And and that makes sense to me because it's a journey in which um everyone is learning.
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:32.480
So the adults are learning, they're deepening their understanding, they're um expanding their practices, um, testing themselves, challenging themselves, and all of that.
00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:38.880
And then, of course, the children um learning, you know, alongside of them about this engagement thing.
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:49.679
So I think it makes sense that it evolves over time as t as people um develop a deeper understanding of what we're talking about here.
00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:50.639
Yeah.
00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:53.760
Well, thank you so much.
00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:54.880
This has been great chat.
00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:55.280
Thank you.
00:50:56.239 --> 00:50:56.800
Thank you so much.
00:50:57.280 --> 00:50:59.760
I just want to thank you again for sharing the video.
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:03.280
I just um enjoyed watching that so much.
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:14.719
And um uh yeah, I got a real kick out of it, and I I looks like the kids had a great time making it too, which um they were very engaged uh in the video.
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:26.000
Well, it's um it's actually funny because we've just literally come off the back of we spent or Casey had the day off and was using the same children again, so our acting ensemble we're we're on to our next video.
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:28.800
So another whole day of filming.
00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:33.679
So we've literally been filming again all day and then um and then come to you.
00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:37.760
So but they are they're great kids, and we're very, very lucky to work where we were.
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:38.719
Very proud of them.
00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:40.320
Yeah, they're cool.
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:42.159
Well, thank you so much.
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:51.440
Um, and enjoy the last uh moments of your school year, and uh, and I'm sure you're looking forward to a well-deserved relaxing break.
00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:54.000
Yes, yeah, yeah, we definitely are.
00:51:54.639 --> 00:51:56.159
Thank you so much for having us.
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:56.719
Thank you.
00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:57.119
Take care.
00:51:58.000 --> 00:51:58.559
See you later.
00:51:58.719 --> 00:51:59.360
See you later.
00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:00.159
Bye.
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:01.119
Bye.
00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:11.279
Welcome to the Talking Engagement Podcast.
00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:21.120
I'm your host, Amy Berry, and in this episode I'll be talking with Dana Fisher and Casey Duck, two amazing educators from Valentine Public School.
00:00:21.359 --> 00:00:27.679
I first heard about their work when I was sent a video that they made with their students about the engagement continuum.
00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:37.200
In the video, the students explained the different forms of engagement and disengagement and acted them out so that others could see what it looks like in their classrooms.
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:40.479
I especially loved seeing one of the students play me, Mrs.
00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:43.200
Berry, as the teacher in their classroom.
00:00:43.520 --> 00:01:00.399
Not only was this a creative and fun way of supporting their community to learn about engagement, it was also a great example of the magic that can happen when we work in partnership with students to build a shared vision for learner engagement across the school community.
00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:03.520
I'm excited to find out more about their engagement journey.
00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:05.840
So let's dive into the conversation.
00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:08.560
Alright, well, welcome.
00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:10.239
Thank you for joining us.
00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:12.640
And I'm really excited to meet you.
00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:14.319
It's the first time we've met.
00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:18.879
And even more excited to hear about the amazing work that you've been doing.
00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:32.640
So for people who are listening, I first was introduced to your work when I got sent a video that your amazing children made, uh, with a lot of help from you.
00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:33.760
I'm I'm tipping.
00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:39.920
Um, but uh it was just such a joy to watch what your students had put together.
00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:44.239
So I'll um I won't spoil it, but I'll let you uh share a little bit about that.
00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:51.760
But maybe you can start by just telling us a little bit about yourselves um and the work that you do and the school that you're at.
00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:53.200
Go on and go.
00:01:54.560 --> 00:01:57.519
Um well, my name's Dana, uh, Dana Fisher.
00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:06.000
I'm currently the stage two assistant principal here at Valentine Public School, and we have about 510 students.
00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:08.400
Uh I have 25 in my class this year.
00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:15.680
I have a year four, and yeah, I'm I'm in charge of the stage two team, which consists of about nine staff members.
00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:21.520
We have a few job shares going, and um 156 kids on my stage.
00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:24.400
And I'm a mum of three.
00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:35.039
I have a near 20-year-old, an 18-year-old, and a nearly 16-year-old, and um, and a dog, little Scooby, he's very cute.
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:52.479
This year has been um quite a big year of just things outside of school and inside of school, and just doing that whole juggle act of teacher, mum, all that, and being around and all the extra things that a school throws your way and you jump off board.
00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:57.280
I've been teaching for about 21 years on and off.
00:02:57.360 --> 00:02:59.439
I had my children in amongst that time as well.
00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:03.199
But I've now currently been at Valentine for the last 10 years.
00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:21.759
And I just I was relieving AP for the last three, and then last year I was at um very successful and very privileged to take over from an ex-staff member who was retiring at the time, and she had to relinquish her position, went to merit selection, and I got that in the role of AP.
00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:27.199
So this is my first official year of doing that role as a substantial AP.
00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:29.120
And yeah, it's a great school.
00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:31.199
I actually grew up in Valentine myself.
00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:36.000
I didn't come to Valentine Public School, but I lived here from when I was four till I was 19.
00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:41.280
And um, so I've known the area for quite a long time, and it's just it's a beautiful part of the world.
00:03:41.360 --> 00:03:48.560
Lake Macquarie, right near this huge lake down the road, and um yeah, the kids are beautiful and the staff are amazing.
00:03:48.639 --> 00:03:51.199
And yeah, that's me in a nutshell.
00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:53.039
Great, okay, great.
00:03:53.360 --> 00:04:00.159
Um, I'm currently a year five teacher, so I'm on stage three this year, and I've been at Valentine's since 2012.
00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:04.000
I did my internship at this school, and they kind of couldn't get rid of me after that.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:08.560
And um, in I think it was 2021, I got a permanent position.
00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:11.919
So I've kind of just been here ever since 2012.
00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:18.879
Um, I spend most of my time on stage two and stage three, so kind of working with the the older kids in the school.
00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:21.839
And um, yeah, it's a it's a beautiful school to work at.
00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:23.839
I'm very, very lucky to be here.
00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:24.480
Great.
00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:24.879
Yeah.
00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:25.759
Okay.
00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:33.680
So um I know it's clear that you've been doing a lot of work around engagement with your students.
00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:52.800
Maybe you can take me back a little bit um and and give us an insider of what was going on at the school that um kind of inspired you to want to get more involved in um this concept of engagement and improving the engagement of your students at the school.
00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:53.680
Yep.
00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:59.360
Um, yeah, so this probably all kicked off, honestly, in about 2021.
00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:08.800
We were involved in a bit of a department initiative, I'd probably call it, um, where we just kind of had to take a bit of a deep dive into our school and what was happening at the time.
00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:14.399
And one of the things that we came up with as a collective staff was that uh we had really passive learners.
00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:16.000
We've got really well-behaved kids.
00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:20.639
They are the most beautiful students that you can probably ever teach in your life.
00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:23.199
Um, but very passive.
00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:32.000
Uh and I think right then and there, we discovered a little bit of a maybe a bit of a problem around engagement with our students.
00:05:32.079 --> 00:05:33.920
And that was back in 2021.
00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:38.959
Um, after that, so kind of fast forward a few years, we kind of didn't know what to do with that.
00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:46.079
We kind of discovered that we would had rich discussions with all our staff members, but we didn't really know where to go with that piece of information.
00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:48.800
Like, how do we increase engagement in our school?
00:05:49.199 --> 00:06:02.720
Um, fast forward to 2023, uh, and the two of us, plus um our boss Lee Sorens, we um were involved with instructional rounds with Steph Salazar, Steffi Salazar.
00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:07.120
And that's kind of when we started this journey that we're on right now.
00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:08.399
Okay.
00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:18.879
It's really interesting um how many schools uh come to me with the challenge of passive students.
00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:30.959
Um, you know, I I I actually rarely get schools come to me saying, Oh, you know, our kids are climbing out the windows and swinging from, you know, the ceiling fans and all of that, or we have high levels of disruption.
00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:45.759
And um, more often than not, it is this kind of dissatisfaction with the level of uh, I guess, passive students who are compliant um and don't really cause any problems.
00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:56.480
But um, I think all the adults uh suddenly um get the feeling that they're not as engaged as what we we think they might be.
00:06:56.800 --> 00:06:58.639
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly us.
00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:05.199
We we're compliant students, um, they're in the classrooms, they're listening, they're doing all the right things.
00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:09.439
But yeah, there was just kind of this uh yeah, passive learners.
00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.480
It was pretty much common across K to 6 at our school.
00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:14.720
And why do you think it that happens?
00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:18.800
You know, why why do you think that many schools find themselves in this position?
00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:22.079
It's it's a hard one.
00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:29.040
I think a lot of it these days is a lot of what the generation that we're teaching is exposed to.
00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:32.720
And so thank goodness for the the big social media ban that starts today.
00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:34.160
Yes, under 16.
00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:49.439
Um, we were only just talking about it before, saying how children are exposed to these things that are constant gratification and it's in their faces and they're if they don't like something, it's it's a swipe and get rid of and and so it's very quick to move on to the next thing.
00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:58.240
So when you're in front of a class and you're trying to do an amazing lesson and and think that you've got all the bells and whistles, not even that, but a really engaging lesson.
00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:05.839
And the children just, I don't know, they just kind of it's unless they're really loving something, they're not interested.
00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:10.079
And so I suppose you've got to really tap into their interest levels and their prior knowledge.
00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:21.680
And I think, I think as well in our community, we have like the most beautiful families, and I think kids genuinely think if they're quiet in the classroom and they're listening, that they're being good.
00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:25.600
They're being good students, which they are, they are good students.
00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:34.480
Um, I just I'm I'm not sure whether the the students knew before we started our journey with the engagement model, what does engagement actually look like?
00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:40.159
So if you don't know what engagement is or what it actually looks like, how can I be engaged?
00:08:40.399 --> 00:08:42.159
I think that was probably our problem as well.
00:08:43.120 --> 00:09:00.159
Yeah, and I I think um our research uh where we went into schools and we ran a whole bunch of focus groups with students, um, would suggest that that's exactly right, that they um they think they're doing it.
00:09:00.320 --> 00:09:12.000
You know, they they they actually think that they're doing what we want them to do by sitting quietly, by listening, by not causing a fuss, by you know, um following the rules.
00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.399
They think that that's what it's all about.
00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:22.960
And so they many of them have developed this misconception that um a good learner is somebody who is just compliant and does what they're told.
00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:35.679
Uh so I think some of them are quite shocked um or surprised when they find out that there's more to learning than passive participating.
00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:36.320
Yes.
00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:37.200
Yeah, definitely.
00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:38.960
Yeah, that's asked in a nutshell, I think.
00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:39.759
Yeah.
00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:58.240
And so um when you uh started working with Steffi and um and started looking at the continuum, um, I guess did you immediately think, well, oh, you know, maybe this is something that we, you know, we could use that could work.
00:09:58.320 --> 00:10:01.279
Here's a pathway forward to chat at solving this challenge.
00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:02.639
Yeah, definitely.
00:10:02.799 --> 00:10:08.000
So when we started our instructional rounds, it was actually the second school we went to, which was Nords Wharf.
00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:09.440
So a little shout out to them.
00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:12.240
Um, they were looking at goal setting and engagement.
00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:17.279
And when we went to their school to look at their problem of practice around that, uh, Mrs.
00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:23.120
Sorens, Casey, and myself went, wow, that's actually fits our school perfectly.
00:10:23.679 --> 00:10:26.639
When it got to our turn, we looked at student engagement.
00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:35.120
So we went really large and then quickly realized we had to probably bring it back and hone down into one main area and we went with engagement.
00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:51.360
So um But there was there was there was a light bulb moment, I think, for every every teacher in the room when we saw your model come up on the screen, and everyone went, oh my goodness, like that is like we never I never thought of it as a continuum before, as levels of engagement.
00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:59.039
I just kind of I think we put it on ourselves as as teachers and educators to go, if a class isn't engaged, I'm doing something wrong.
00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:02.480
Um, what am I not doing, or what is this less than lack?
00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:15.919
Whereas seeing it as more of a student-centered um continuum, well, what could the students be doing to move their engagement up a little bit more on the continuum?
00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:16.240
Yeah.
00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:17.519
Yeah.
00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:36.799
And I I mean I've I've heard other people say similar things, you know, too, that I think it's it's completely natural that that teachers um believe that engagement is all on their shoulders, you know, that this is something that they need to do, or it's about what they do.
00:11:37.039 --> 00:11:40.799
Um, and we get that message as teachers because that's what we're told.
00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:46.639
Um, you know, we've got to hook them in, we've got to get them engaged, we've got to keep them engaged, we've got to re-engage them.
00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:57.919
Uh, and so we're given that messaging all the time as teachers, um, and and given lots of advice about strategies that we should be using to engage our students.
00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:15.440
Um, and it's true, there are lots of instructional moves that we can make as teachers that can support um and empower engagement, but what's missing there is the understanding that we don't do it you know by ourselves, that they also have a role to play.
00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:17.759
But we don't hear about that as much.
00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:19.600
No, definitely not.
00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:42.159
And I think with having the continuum that we've then adapted from yours to bring into our school, it's we've seen a shift in the way that the children also see it to say that, oh, hang on, I'm I'm only at participating, but I really need to get into that next level of investing and very clear across our school now that we've been able to embed that K to six.
00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:59.919
So we have your continuum that we adapted and then um put it in child-friendly language to then to the point where when we were having a discussion about putting into like a bit of a poster in all the rooms that maybe the language would change for cater two, but they actually said no, leave it as is.
00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:08.080
We will we will yeah, we will describe what that's about and we will teach the children what it means to be withdrawing and what it is to avoid.
00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:15.519
And um, and so that language has now come across K to 6 to the point where you can say to a child, um, okay, where are you right now?
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:17.039
Oh, I'm avoiding, right?
00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:18.879
I'll go back and start doing my work.
00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:19.759
Yeah.
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:20.240
Yeah.
00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.240
So it's been really positive.
00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:50.480
Well, so it sounds to me like um the can in your experience, the continuum um helped teachers to kind of expand their understanding of engagement um and have a little bit more uh, I guess, depth to their understanding too, rather than thinking of it just maybe as they're engaged or they're not engaged, um, to see it as something that's a little bit more nuanced.
00:13:50.639 --> 00:14:03.840
Um, and also um that for the students themselves, it gave them also a new language to think with um and to reflect with uh in terms of their own learning.
00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:05.200
Yeah, definitely.
00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:18.320
So um, so I guess my question is always I find it interesting to think about we're in a situation where um many would say, well, things are working well at this school.
00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:23.200
Look, you know, beautifully behaved children, the classrooms are probably humming along.
00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:30.720
Um, I'm going back in time here, um, and and people are achieving and there's no major issues.
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:35.600
Um, and then um you introduce this change.
00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:47.840
Were there some on staff that took a little bit longer to feel the need for a change, given that things were pretty uh, you know, not not terrible?
00:14:48.960 --> 00:15:03.440
I think I think we've um we were we were really mindful at our school to begin instructional rounds that we we didn't want to bring in too much too quickly because this was the year pretty much before or during a big curriculum change as well.
00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:05.519
So we had a lot going on in our school.
00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:22.639
So we kind of between myself, Donna and and Lee, um, there was a lot of discussion about how do we like sprinkle this in slowly so it's not wham, here's another thing that you've got to have on top of what you're already changing and and manipulating as well.
00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:31.200
Um, so it was probably done in a um over a few different staff professional learnings um sessions.
00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:38.320
And I think once we showed them the model, everyone, very similar to us when we first saw it, went, wow, that's amazing.
00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.519
Uh and then it was just go and have a trial of it in your classroom.
00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:53.919
You know, this is what we showed them a video that we found online where kids were talking about what it looks like to be in um, you know, participating, investing, driving, avoiding, withdrawing, disrupting.
00:15:54.080 --> 00:16:04.159
Um, and we just said, have a chat to your to your classes, see if, you know, bringing up these different levels and trying to get kids to self-identify where they are, if this helps.
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:14.399
And then I think it was maybe even a term later that we checked back in with everybody and just started that kind of professional chats between us to see how everyone was going.
00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:20.399
It wasn't really a thing that we said, this is an additional thing that you've got to do in your classrooms, but everyone have a bit of a go.
00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:33.600
And then when we came back to the next PL, everyone was raving, going, it's so good, you know, from our librarian to our RFF music teacher, everyone was saying, look, it's so good because they are doing it in the classroom.
00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:40.799
Teachers are talking about it in their individual classes, and then when they come to us, we can just kind of remind them, where are you?
00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:46.399
And it's more of a tool than you know, an additional thing that everybody has to do on top of.
00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:48.320
Um yeah.
00:16:48.639 --> 00:16:49.279
Yeah.
00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:54.799
And so did you have a core group that kind of led the work um within the school?
00:16:54.879 --> 00:17:08.160
And maybe um, I guess you know, you I I sometimes call them shining stars, and often they're the early adopters that are just really keen and kind of zoom ahead um uh, you know, under their own motivation.
00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:20.000
Um, but they they end up, you know, being quite uh a good resource for others in the school because they they're risk takers uh and they're willing to try things out first and report back and see how it goes.
00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:22.640
So did you have those people within your school?
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:27.599
We we kind of you are we we were.
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:38.400
I think because we were so fortunate enough to be part of the instructional rounds and we had that PL, um we kind of bought everything back and we would guinea pig our own classes first to then bring it back to our staff.
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:45.200
Um, and then we were fortunate enough last year that we were kept on with instructional rounds and we had two other staff members come on board.
00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:50.960
So we had our teacher librarian, um Joe, and our early stage one at the time.
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:54.480
She was early stage one assistant principal, Alyssa.
00:17:54.720 --> 00:18:05.680
So there was then four of us, and over the last year now that we've been able to bring it apart, we've got that lens of the library teacher who sees every single child across the school.
00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:05.920
Yeah.
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:13.440
So she's been really positive to say the language, it's great because when they come, I'm saying the same things as what they hear in the classroom.
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:19.279
So it's not like, oh, we can muck up when we go to library because it's not the same expectations, but across the school with it.
00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:42.480
And then the same from the ES1 perspective, down with infants saying how they've started to embed it and the children are learning at such such from a young age and bring it forward to the point where even only this year in our half-yearly reports, we actually aligned our model to our reports and where it sits with the children's effort.
00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:51.200
So in our reports that go home to parents, now on that front page where it's at A to E, there's also now a little picture of our engagement continuum.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:58.079
And we've said that if they are doing the withdrawing and the disrupting and the avoiding, that is associated with low effort.
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:01.119
If they're participating, it's that that's satisfactory.
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.839
But if they're investing and driving, that's high.
00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:07.759
So we've communicated that to our um our families as well.
00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:12.480
And then, yeah, and then we created the video to share amongst the staff.
00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:13.200
Yes.
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:17.039
Okay, so um, I mean, I we have to talk about the video now.
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:22.960
So maybe you can tell me a little bit about that um and how that came to be and what that process was like.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:24.400
It was long.
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:26.799
It was it was a lot of fun.
00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:27.519
It was lots of fun.
00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:28.799
Yeah, so I loved it.
00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:31.440
Casey is amazing creatively.
00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:36.720
Uh, she's very clever with filming and snipping things and putting things together.
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.640
Um, and this one's also in shows, so you're a bit of a drama expert.
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:47.839
Our we have an amazing drama teacher at our school, and um, unfortunately, fortunately, unfortunately, she's out this year on maternity leave.
00:19:48.000 --> 00:19:54.880
So got a beautiful little baba, but needed someone to take over our acting ensemble at our school, and she does a stellar job of that.
00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:00.400
So um she came to I think me and kind of I roped you in as well.
00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:07.359
Um, but we've taken on board our acting ensemble this year to kind of keep the keep the cogs moving while she's away.
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:12.240
And we just thought, yeah, this is um, I think actually maybe someone in instruction rounds.
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:25.119
We were talking about maybe how cool it would be to get the staff video where staff actually become the students and act it out, and the kids would probably love seeing that at the start of every year when we're talking about the engagement model with our new classes.
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:32.240
Uh, and you know, as much as that would be great, it's just timing to try and get all the staff together to film something so extensive.
00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:36.079
So we had the opportunity once a week for about 10 weeks.
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:43.519
Yeah, for about 10 weeks uh to work with our wonderful little actors and we proposed it to them and said, Would you like to do it?
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:44.880
And they were all on board.
00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:50.160
We um they all wanted to be the disruptors because we again we have very few of those.
00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:51.359
Yeah, they're all beautiful kids.
00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:56.319
They're all the they'd be all the investors and the drivers in every class, of course.
00:20:56.559 --> 00:20:58.480
Uh so we had to pull names out of the hat.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:20:59.680
They all had a little role.
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:04.799
We really honed in on characterization and becoming becoming the character.
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:08.000
Um, and yeah, it kind of went from there.
00:21:08.079 --> 00:21:30.960
But it it took a good 10 weeks to film, and um, the kids had a ball, and yeah, we have a cool little video to show for it that we will probably get everyone to show their classes at the start of every new year, and that's a good little humorous starting point, but obviously that's the reality of a classroom as well to show this is what this is what engagement looks like across all the levels.
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:35.680
And you know, it's a good discussion starter, I think, at the start of the year.
00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:36.079
Yeah.
00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:44.240
And even to only this this week, actually, I think only on Monday, we have um a spotlight on a class every week that goes out on our Facebook page.
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:46.559
Um, so the Valentine Facebook page.
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:49.759
And um, this week that was that video was shared.
00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:55.200
And I think the other day it was already over like 600 views just from families in the community.
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:59.759
So and it is to say, now we've we've educated our students of what it looks like.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:17.599
Now we're educating our community and our parents to say that when that report does come home and my child is a withdrawal, and and this is the kind of things that looks in that what that levels, but now they can watch the video and go, ah, yeah, are you going to the toilet a lot?
00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:18.559
Yeah.
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:24.240
Very inappropriate times, you know, we're getting to work.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:35.599
Um, and it's such a creative way of uh bringing families into the conversation too, you know, rather than just your standard newsletter.
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:45.039
Um, but you know, it is a fun creative way of sharing this information and and inviting them in um to join in.
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:55.359
Uh, and then also having it as part of your reporting shows how much you value um this work and see its connection to learning.
00:22:55.519 --> 00:23:00.319
So I think um good examples for other people too to think about too.
00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:11.359
And you know, not every school has um amazingly talented and dedicated uh teachers that want to spend 10 weeks once a week creating uh a video like this.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.680
If if they do, I encourage them to do that because I it is amazing.
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:39.359
Um but I think it's a good strategy for, especially for working with primary school age students, um, role play at the different levels of the continuum is is such a great way of kind of uh I guess testing to see how well they understand the different um forms from the continuum too.
00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:51.039
And I remember I'm just thinking about a group of year five, six teachers that told me once that they they thought that they really had it and that the kids really understood it and we were all on the same page.
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:57.119
And then they did a role play one day where they got them to um, you know, act out some of these things.
00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:08.400
And when they went to act out driving, it was all about um, you know, putting your hand up to answer a question um and um you know finishing your work quickly.
00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:22.559
And you know, it's like they reverted back to these other ideas about what it means to be a good student, um, and had and and were still, you know, on the journey of trying to understand really what driving is.
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:23.119
Yeah.
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:30.720
Even when we were filming it, when we got to the drivers, the kids did have a bit of input into how they would deliver their lines.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:36.079
And um, there was one little girl in particular, she's like, Oh, can I act like can I put mine about can I ask for feedback?
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:38.160
And we were like, Yes, that's cool.
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:49.119
So and allowed them to have that little bit more of a um kind of like suggestions in for how they would act the part when they got their level of engagement and um yeah.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:25:03.599
I think next year with my new class, it would be such a powerful activity at the start of year to actually brainstorm and discuss what all the levels actually look like because there's more than what is on our poster and there's that that we display in the classroom.
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:08.799
I think there's more than what you initially think is in these levels.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:10.319
There's a lot to each one.
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:12.000
Oh, yeah, definitely.
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:20.240
Um, I mean, it's it's one of the reasons why I never make posters, um, even though I'm asked all the time about posters.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:30.160
But to me, um it doesn't mean as much uh if you just buy a poster from me online and flap it on the wall.
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:30.480
Yeah.
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:35.039
Um, it runs the risk of just being another decoration that's sitting on your wall that's never used.
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:51.519
But when the children have the opportunity to um create it, yeah, co-create, co-construct it, and they can see themselves in it because they had a hand in creating it, I think that's when it starts to really come to life.
00:25:51.599 --> 00:26:06.319
So even if you start with the the basis as you as you've got there with your kind of just you know foundation, um, and then get them to join in the conversations with post-it notes and and whatever else, um, it can really come to life then.
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:14.400
And I like how people change their minds, um, which is why I like post-it notes, because you can, you know, uh move those around when you change your mind.
00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:23.599
But I had a school recently um uh that was on the podcast, and so they'll be part of this season as well, Mawson Primary School in Canberra.
00:26:23.839 --> 00:26:32.960
And their year five, six teachers um created this great wall of engagement um with their students, and they've they've used it many times.
00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:44.480
So one time, you know, they were having a difficulty in um getting the children to understand that engagement is a partnership and that everybody has a role to play.
00:26:44.720 --> 00:27:03.680
So they use this great wall of engagement to say to the students, um, you know, here here is uh here are some scenarios um about when people find it hard to engage in mathematics, you know, some challenges that people face when they're learning in maths and that might cause them to disengage.
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:19.759
Um and and now we want you to look at those um and determine for yourselves whose role is it to solve that challenge, you know, like who whose not whose problem is this, but who who fixes this problem?
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:31.119
And in the process of that, um and the conversations that they had, the students soon came to the conclusion that, well, it's not it's generally not one or the other, it's both.
00:27:31.200 --> 00:27:34.799
Um, that both the teacher and the student have a role to play here.
00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:47.599
So I think um building on a basic poster and then using it um to go deeper um uh is is a great way to go about it too.
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:53.440
Now um impact uh on the students.
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:59.440
So we've heard about um the growth of it, the evolution of the work across the school.
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:05.839
Um, but what have you noticed in terms of impact just in the classroom on a daily basis?
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:07.359
You want to go?
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:08.000
I'll go.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:12.240
Yeah, I actually had I think it's sometimes it's the little the little moments.
00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:20.000
Like for example, yesterday I was working with one of my, it's the end of the year, so we have to you know finalise all the all the paperwork side of things.
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:22.559
And I was working with one of my little students.
00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:29.279
Um, she's one of our Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander students, and we go through the process of her PLP each year.
00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:39.920
So um she makes goals, we work towards them, and at the end of the year we kind of have to do a little summary and a bit of a a reflection on her year and then draft some new goal goals for next year.
00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:50.400
Uh and one of the questions on her PLP um was what basically what can you do next year to you know achieve your next year's goals?
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:52.000
What do you want to kind of work towards?
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:53.920
And her answer was all about engagement.
00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:00.160
And I just thought that's really powerful because it's she's connected engagement with achieving goals.
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:11.440
And I just think that when you hear students actually using the language and and saying the words, I you know, want to drive my learning a little bit more next year, um, it we know it's stuck.
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:16.880
We know it's kind of embedded into our school in a deep way when our students are actually using that language.
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:22.160
Yes, that's such a big um that it's not small at all.
00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:30.319
It's actually really big because and this is why I say to people that we have to embed this every day in every lesson.
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:36.400
Um, it can't just be something that we do at the start of a term or the start of a year or on a Friday afternoon.
00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:36.720
Yeah.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:52.559
It has to be daily work because we want our students to make the connection between um the actions that they take as part of engaging in a learning experience and the progress that they make in their learning.
00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:54.799
And this is exactly what you're talking about here.
00:29:54.960 --> 00:30:01.759
They can see the connection between engagement and the actions that are associated with engaging and their progress in learning.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:03.119
So that's big.
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:04.079
That's very big.
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:05.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:05.519
Okay.
00:30:07.119 --> 00:30:08.079
Definitely.
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:11.200
Um, I've got a few little things as well.
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:15.519
That they're probably not as lovely as that a story, but just the language.
00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:22.960
I think um at the start of the year, I did sit down with my class and say, this is our what we've been learning about.
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:27.519
Brought it to the school, it's now across the um the K to six space.
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:36.559
And going into those, what Casey said before, is I actually did put my groups in to say, well, you're going to be a disruptor and you're going to be an avoider and you're going to be a withdrawal and this is what it looks like.
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:42.640
And I got them to almost act out things that they thought it would look like before I even showed them the poster.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:54.559
So um, and it was good to see that they could match up the things that were on the um on the continuum, but also just the language about if I will just see a child and I just have to eyeball them and go, where you at?
00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:56.559
And they'll just go, Yeah, I'm participating.
00:30:56.720 --> 00:30:56.960
Yeah.
00:30:57.440 --> 00:30:58.640
I need to push myself.
00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:11.119
And then also uh in particular with writing, we have something in our school that we also bought in through a few years ago, we did a lot of project-based learning through a thing called Project Mess.
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:23.440
So we kept both Casey and I were very fortunate when we were both up on stage three together, and um, that was amazing work where we did a lot of that hooking students in and having like secret excursions.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:26.559
So the engagement back then was phenomenal.
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:31.920
And um, one of the big things with writing was what we called was a going for green, going for gold.
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:37.359
So we would co-construct, it was basically like your learning intentions and success criteria.
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:37.599
Yeah.
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:45.920
So you would co-construct what the children, okay, say if it was a narrative, what needed to be in an orientation, and the students would tell us.
00:31:46.079 --> 00:31:49.519
So we would make that together and say, right, well, that is the going for green.
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:54.240
So if we then have that conversation, well, that's you participating, it's it's okay.
00:31:54.400 --> 00:32:01.839
But if you want to go for gold and you want to then link yourself into be in an investor and a driver, they have that option.
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:16.559
And our boss always does talk about that you can't have drivers in every single KLA because I might go to science and that may not be my passion, but I will drive my learning when I go to Kappa.
00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:25.759
And yes, I will do what I I think that I love and I enjoy, and I'll um push myself that little bit further in the subjects that I like.
00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:33.680
So I think for my class in particular, it's just been about the language and getting them to want to move to that next step.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:37.680
So yeah, and I think um, I mean, this is the challenge.
00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:40.799
Uh, and and I've talked to many teachers about this, yeah.
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:47.519
We're we're people and we're not motivated and interested in every single thing that we learn um to the same extent.
00:32:47.759 --> 00:33:06.880
So um I think unlike you know, learning to read or um learning to, you know, add and subtract and all of that, um, just because we know how to drive and have demonstrated that we can drive does not mean that we will drive all the time in every situation.
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:16.799
So engagement fluctuates, um, it fluctuates from moment to moment sometimes, um, as well as across lessons and across different contexts.
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:42.640
So I think um one bit of advice that I always give to teachers is yes, you might have a student who is not that interested in a particular subject, and so um they're not as inclined to want to really invest um and put effort in and get highly engaged compared to another subject.
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:53.519
But what we can do is start to talk in terms of driving as a collection of daily, small daily behaviors and practices.
00:33:53.759 --> 00:34:13.360
And when we start to see it like that, we can see that every lesson, no matter what it is, and whether I'm super interested in it or not, every lesson is an opportunity to practice some of those driving skills, you know, even if it's just checking the success criteria and and monitoring how I'm going against success success criteria.
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:17.920
That's a driving act, and you know, an action of a driver, a driving behavior.
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:26.639
And so even in a subject that I'm not really, really into, I still have a chance to practice my driving behaviors um and get really good at them.
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:32.400
Um and so there's there's small, there's small driving, yeah, you know, and then there's big driving as well.
00:34:32.559 --> 00:34:40.719
So I think being aware of those daily small acts of driving um is a good way to think about it too.
00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:41.199
Yeah.
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:54.880
And making a goal, like I actually thought moving into next year, like it would be really um interesting for students to maybe have something on their desk even and at the start of a lesson, what is your goal for this lesson in terms of your engagement?
00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:56.639
Make an engagement goal.
00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:00.960
Um especially for the subjects that they don't like love, love.
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:05.440
You know, if if they are not a lover of maths, what can you do today?
00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:06.480
Let's write it down.
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:09.679
And it might be just a you know, a classroom routine.
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:14.400
Quickly jot it down on your little post-it note or a little whiteboard on your desk.
00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:20.480
What can you do today to try and you know invest or drive in your learning, even if it's a subject that you don't love?
00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:28.960
Bump it up just a little bit from where um I my comfy spot that I'm gonna it's great.
00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:48.239
You know, I've got another um school that I went to visit, and I think it was it was either a year four class or a year five class, but every child had a continuum on their desk, and um, and their teacher gave uh each child had three counters, three different colored counters, um, labeled one, two, and three.
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:54.159
And they used those um for their three check-ins um for engagement in a lesson.
00:35:54.400 --> 00:36:02.159
So at the very start, it's like an initial check-in, you know, sort of a readiness to engage kind of check-in um at the start.
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:10.559
Um, and then at a at a designated point, you know, um along the way, stop, check-in again with number two, and then at the end, number three.
00:36:10.800 --> 00:36:21.840
And it was a really interesting uh way of uh visualizing um the fluctuations that we see in engagement across just a 40-minute lesson.
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:31.679
Um, but also, you know, for the teacher to reflect um and connect, you know, well, what was happening at time one and time two and time three?
00:36:31.840 --> 00:36:39.440
Um, was there something about the feature of the lesson and what was happening at those different times that maybe played into the shifts in engagement?
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:47.360
Um, so I think uh such a small thing could be quite a powerful um bit of feedback for the teacher and and for the students too.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:48.400
Yeah, I love that.
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:57.119
And it's visual, so it's it's easy for you to kind of walk around and kind of sure quick to go and check on your quick quickly put your counter on.
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:01.599
Yeah, and then wander around wander around and say, Oh, I'm losing them.
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:02.800
Time to move on.
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:03.760
Yeah.
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:04.880
We've been sitting too long.
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:07.440
Good feedback for the teachers as well.
00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:07.840
Yeah.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:08.239
Yeah.
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:10.239
Without them sitting there going, oh, I'm bored.
00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:11.360
Yeah, exactly.
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:21.039
Okay, so I always end um with top tips uh for other people.
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:30.880
So thinking about other people who might be just starting their journey or in the middle of it and looking for some motivation to keep going or some inspiration.
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:37.039
What would be your top tips for teachers or schools who are embarking on this?
00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:41.280
I'd I'd probably start off by saying if you're just starting, take it slow.
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:48.639
Um, have the discussions uh with your staff members and get everybody a little bit on board, a little bit interested.
00:37:48.800 --> 00:38:05.119
I mean, we did quite a few sessions both in 2021 and in 20 um 23, where we basically proposed some questions to the staff that we kind of knew that the answers would be that a bit of disengagement and a bit of passive learners.
00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:17.840
So that, you know, everyone, we're we're collectively seeing our problem of practice at our school is this, and what can we do to kind of um yeah, make small steps to try and you know make it better in our school.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:35.280
Uh, and then yeah, just uh take it, I think take it slow and keep checking in with your staff members, keep asking how they're going, if you can, if we can help you in any way, um, trying strategies like I love the the continuum on the desk or making a goal at the start of the lesson.
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:37.840
And yeah, it's it's a definitely a journey.
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:42.639
I it's not something that you can just fix in one term, it's kind of a long term for us.
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:52.400
It was I even I think I heard Lee Soren say at one point, our boss, um, this is like a five-year journey at least to try and get to that point of student agency.
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:53.760
Yeah.
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:54.159
Okay.
00:38:54.320 --> 00:39:00.800
Um and building on what Casey said, I would also say consistency across the school.
00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:09.280
And once you have that buy-in from staff and and taking it very slow to be able to have it in, and we are quite a large school.
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:10.960
I mean, a medium-sized school.
00:39:11.039 --> 00:39:20.960
I know there are schools out there that uh larger than us, but having that consistency across K to 6, so all staff know the expectations and the children know the expectations.
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:31.119
Um, and then also one thing that we have all said with our instructional round journey was um someone coined the phrase built in, not bolted on.
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:43.519
So making sure that it's it's not an extra, it's just those mindful tweaks of little things that you do in the classroom every day that um yeah, it's not something that you have to add on.
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:44.480
You're already doing it.
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:48.880
It's just make the little changes and um make the biggest impact, I think.
00:39:49.119 --> 00:39:51.760
Yeah, so that's probably what I would say.
00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:54.559
Great advice, great advice.
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:57.280
Um, any questions for me?
00:39:58.400 --> 00:40:09.679
I would actually love to know where um where your journey started from to be able to get into what made you create the continuum and and go down that pathway.
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:20.159
Um well, um my interest in engagement uh began with my very first job in a school over 20 years ago.
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:29.840
I happened to be in charge of the, and if you've read my book, you probably read about this, but I was in charge of the responsible thinking classroom at a local secondary school.
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:38.639
Um I called it the naughty kids' room um because that's basically what it, you know, they when they got kicked out of their class, they ended up in my room.
00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:54.559
And it was just such a powerful experience for me because it really gave me an insight into um a different experience of school than I had myself as a child growing up.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:41:14.880
And uh, I just felt so passionate about these students um and how much they were being let down by a system that seemed happy for them to turn up every day and just spend a lot of time out of their classrooms, um, a lot of time feeling like failures and like they didn't belong and nobody wanted them there.
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:21.039
Um, and so that has really stuck with me, um, thinking we this must be a better way.
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:25.920
I, you know, um, and it stuck with me all through my teaching uh as well.
00:41:26.960 --> 00:41:35.760
And then um at some point I took a break from teaching, uh, went on long service leave because we moved from Queensland down to Victoria.
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:43.119
And um I I, you know, I was doing some supply teaching, kind of just at, you know, at a bit of a loss thinking, what am I gonna do?
00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:50.480
Um and I on a whim decided, well, maybe I'll go back to university and um and I'll get my master's.
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:54.159
And my two children were at university themselves at the time.
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:57.440
So all three of us were studying at the same time.
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:16.559
Um, did my masters at Melbourne Uni looking at um flatlining of top quartile students um in classrooms and and uh in particular what kind of classrooms um I guess support everyone to keep making progress, um including those top quartile students.
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:33.119
And um, and I started to get a glimmer into these really amazing classrooms where you know high expectations, um a level of challenge for everyone, uh, self-regulated learning, you know, all this kinds of magic stuff.
00:42:33.519 --> 00:42:39.679
And um and it was from there that I immediately went into my PhD, thinking I want to keep going with this.
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:47.760
And I'm really interested in classrooms um that support uh high levels of engagement in learning.
00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:50.559
And so that was how I started.
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:58.079
Now, when I started researching in engagement, I found out wow, you know, everybody's um looking at engagement.
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:04.159
And we know a lot about engagement from the perspective of researchers and academics.
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:16.159
Um but um it may it seems to be making no difference because we've been looking at this for like decades and decades, and it's the same problem over and over again.
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:23.519
Kids get less and less engaged in school as they go through school, and that pattern has been going on since I don't know how long.
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:38.239
Um so maybe the problem is that the way that researchers and academics look at it is not fit for purpose for classroom teachers and and their students.
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:50.719
Um, maybe you know, somebody needs to look at their perspective and um and try to create something that's more fit for purpose for the classroom and you know, daily lessons.
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:53.119
So that's really where it started.
00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:56.559
Um, and it started simply with going out and talking to teachers.
00:43:56.639 --> 00:43:59.440
You know, at the time, John Hattie was my supervisor.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.639
And I remember him saying to me at the top, I said, no, nobody's really doing this.
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:13.039
I can find very few studies where they actually go and ask teachers and talk to teachers and even fewer that want to talk to students about it.
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:14.960
So he said, Well, there you go.
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:18.159
Off you go, go and do some interviews, go and start talking to people.
00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:20.960
So so that's how it started.
00:44:21.039 --> 00:44:28.719
And the continuum was created pretty early on in my PhD, just based on those initial interviews.
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:35.840
Um, and then I continued to work on it doing a bunch of observations, um, student survey, you know, things like that.
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:48.239
So um, yeah, I I think it it really just reflects all of the different ways that teachers described engagement and disengagement to me based on their experiences in the classroom.
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:54.159
And that's probably why when teachers look at it, they find it easy to pick up and run with.
00:44:54.320 --> 00:45:02.719
They it's it it's not really a struggle because it's it grows out of the teachers' experiences in the classroom.
00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:03.760
Yeah, definitely.
00:45:04.960 --> 00:45:06.719
That sounds that is that's really cool.
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:08.639
Um, I have one other question.
00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:24.880
Um, given your extensive knowledge of engagement and the amazing people that you work with and talk to, um, do you have any tips for us, as in going forward from where we are now um in our school, you know, a little bit of our school now and where we've kind of you know progressed to it?
00:45:25.119 --> 00:45:28.159
Just any tips for us moving forward with engagement?
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:43.920
I mean, I I'm pretty confident that um that you will continue to grow it um and continue to be on this journey for quite a while because you know your mindset is there.
00:45:44.079 --> 00:45:56.960
You you're curious, um, you're excited about it, um, you you take risks, um, you can see the successes, um, and and I can hear, you know, that the motivation for it has grown over time.
00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:00.079
So that's got all the ingredients to keep going.
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:03.440
Um, so I would say, you know, keep doing what you're doing.
00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:19.199
And then the other thing is, I I mean, I'm always a fan of constantly trying to think about how can we um uh involve the children um and young people even more than we are now.
00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:42.480
So how how can we um I guess really lean into this partnership idea and to the point where we have we have a certain challenge that we're facing as a school in terms of um engagement, um, calling a committee uh of students together to weigh in and say, look, here's some data that we've collected.
00:46:43.039 --> 00:46:52.559
Um here's a great experience for them to dive into some data with the help of their teachers and weigh in with their perspective and their insights.
00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:54.559
You know, what do you think is going on here?
00:46:54.800 --> 00:47:01.360
What would you suggest as some possible um actions that we could take?
00:47:01.519 --> 00:47:03.760
Um, asking for feedback from them.
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:06.880
Um, what else could we do with this?
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:18.000
Uh you know, they they have amazing ideas, uh, but they don't often get asked um to weigh in in important decisions at the school level.
00:47:18.400 --> 00:47:18.800
Yeah.
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:36.719
That that actually just reminds me of last year with my class, I had a 3-4, and um, at the end of the year, I actually did a Google Forms and I said, I want you to rate yourselves in where your level of engagement was in English and in maths and in PDHPE.
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:48.320
And it was just a Google form, so it came out as a big pie chart, and um, and it was really interesting because I then myself put that aligned to what I gave them for their efforts, and it married up.
00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:51.840
So yeah, it just remembered, I just remembered that I did that last year.
00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:55.039
I might have to do that with my children in the next week and see how these guys go.
00:47:55.519 --> 00:48:03.519
Yeah, well, I think I mean you've already taken the step of um connecting the continuum with your effort marks.
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:06.639
Um, and I I know other schools that have done that as well.
00:48:06.800 --> 00:48:10.639
Um, and I I mean I think schools often have to report on effort.
00:48:10.880 --> 00:48:27.840
Um, and I I think we can all um comfortably say that um it's wishy-washy at best, generally, you know, you uh it's not a scientific method um that we use as teachers for you know, giving an effort, Mark.
00:48:28.079 --> 00:48:37.039
Um so I think schools recognize that here here is an opportunity to maybe put a little bit more rigor behind it, a little bit more oomph behind it.
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:52.000
Um, but uh, but I you know, I would like to also understand, well, how how does the student themselves um evaluate their engagement uh in learning in in these different subjects?
00:48:52.079 --> 00:49:02.000
You know, if if we're asking them to be experts on themselves and get better at knowing themselves, but then I'd like to hear them evaluate their their own engagement too.
00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:08.000
I find um when you do ask the kids to be self-critical, um they are very honest.
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:08.320
Yeah.
00:49:08.480 --> 00:49:10.079
I mean, yeah, our students are.
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:20.239
Um, and I know when COVID was around, uh back in 2020, I think we had a very modified report where we actually did send home a report in that year.
00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:31.039
I think correct me if I'm wrong, but we had self-reflection of where the children thought they were as far as um their behavior and and then next to the teachers, and we had them sitting side by side.
00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:35.920
So to see what the kids did for themselves and then what the teachers observed throughout the year.
00:49:36.400 --> 00:49:45.039
Um yeah, so and then I I was talking to another teacher from a another local school, and she was saying how they've been looking at in engagement as well.
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:53.760
So they've kind of embedded it into their school this year, and they've actually got rid of the word effort in their reports, and they have actually now talked just and said it's just engagement.
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:58.079
So they do A to E and their engagement in those subjects.
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:01.760
So yeah, you think maybe that's the next pathway down.
00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:02.639
So yeah.
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:03.440
Yeah.
00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:13.599
Well, yeah, it's a journey, and I think most schools that I talk to uh talk in terms of the evolution, you know, of their journey, and it just keeps evolving.
00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:21.199
And and that makes sense to me because it's a journey in which um everyone is learning.
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:32.480
So the adults are learning, they're deepening their understanding, they're um expanding their practices, um, testing themselves, challenging themselves, and all of that.
00:50:32.559 --> 00:50:38.880
And then, of course, the children um learning, you know, alongside of them about this engagement thing.
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:49.679
So I think it makes sense that it evolves over time as t as people um develop a deeper understanding of what we're talking about here.
00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:50.639
Yeah.
00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:53.760
Well, thank you so much.
00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:54.880
This has been great chat.
00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:55.280
Thank you.
00:50:56.239 --> 00:50:56.800
Thank you so much.
00:50:57.280 --> 00:50:59.760
I just want to thank you again for sharing the video.
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:03.280
I just um enjoyed watching that so much.
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:14.719
And um uh yeah, I got a real kick out of it, and I I looks like the kids had a great time making it too, which um they were very engaged uh in the video.
00:51:15.840 --> 00:51:26.000
Well, it's um it's actually funny because we've just literally come off the back of we spent or Casey had the day off and was using the same children again, so our acting ensemble we're we're on to our next video.
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:28.800
So another whole day of filming.
00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:33.679
So we've literally been filming again all day and then um and then come to you.
00:51:33.760 --> 00:51:37.760
So but they are they're great kids, and we're very, very lucky to work where we were.
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:38.719
Very proud of them.
00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:40.320
Yeah, they're cool.
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:42.159
Well, thank you so much.
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:51.440
Um, and enjoy the last uh moments of your school year, and uh, and I'm sure you're looking forward to a well-deserved relaxing break.
00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:54.000
Yes, yeah, yeah, we definitely are.
00:51:54.639 --> 00:51:56.159
Thank you so much for having us.
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:56.719
Thank you.
00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:57.119
Take care.
00:51:58.000 --> 00:51:58.559
See you later.
00:51:58.719 --> 00:51:59.360
See you later.
00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:00.159
Bye.
00:52:00.480 --> 00:52:01.119
Bye.
