Sinners w/ Briahna Joy Gray and Josh Olson [Unlocked]

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Okay, welcome to a very special crossover episode of Bad
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Faith Podcast and Struggle Session. You know you're a host
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of Struggle Session. Leslie Lee the third who of course
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is with us for this crossover episode. It's good to
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see you as always, Leslie.
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Good to see you, Bree and Josh Olsen.
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It's always nice to have a real life screenwriter, a.
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Native of the Hollywood landscape when we're doing some pop
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culture movie criticism. Welcome back to Bad Faith and Struggle Session.
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Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here, and it's
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nice to be We're gonna plug my new podcast, The
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White Cannon. It's nice to be talking about a movie
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that's not White Canon.
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So that's a good question.
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So, like, do we think that this is a movie
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that's gonna end up being Black Cannon?
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Is it already the movie?
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Sorry?
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The movie that we're talking about, my apologies is, of
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course Ryan Coogler's latest Sinners, starring Michael B.
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Jordan.
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It is a cross genre vampire movie and the Jim
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Crow South and it has been doing very very well
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at the box office, especially for an original feature.
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Josh, until you know that vampire musical, Let's be.
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Clear, yes, absolutely. It's got a lot of music in it, and
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I was thinking in a theater, it's like, yeah, this
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is a half step away from a full on musical.
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But that was not a problem. That's not an insult.
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Yeah, oh no, not at all, not at all.
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Okay, So I don't want people to I mean, there's
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some people are gonna hear that, you know, and be like, Okay,
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I tolerated Wicked, but I don't know.
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It's good music. It's good music, Okay.
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It's like anybody here, if you're sitting around and haven't
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decided whether you want to see sinners that are waiting
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until these three chuckleheads chime in, just yeah, you're doomed.
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So let's set it up a little bit for those
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who are like, how on earth is music fitting into
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what I thought was a sort of action packed vampire
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romp who wants to take take the lead on giving
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people a sense of what this film is about. And
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I think we should go ahead and say there's gonna
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be spoilers. I think we'll avoid maybe super egregious spoilers,
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but you're you're gonna know what this Wait, what do.
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You think do you think we should try to avoid it.
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I mean at this point, they literally have the spoilers
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in the trailer. That's how it. Like you asked a question,
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is it part of the cannon? Yes, it's a certify
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the classic day one. Everybody knows. Everybody. People don't even
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get mad if you post spoilers because everybody's seen it.
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The first tattoos have already been dropped on pack. Oh.
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Yes, people are obsessed with this movie in way culturally
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that they haven't been obsessed with a film or any
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real cultural product except for maybe not like Us. But
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I feel like that was a lot different sort of
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vibe than you know, this movie which has just you know,
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taken the world by storm. Even I was shocked. Actually,
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I will talk about this, that the white right didn't
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seem to be mad about this movie when like the
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first forty five minutes of this movie is I hate
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these crackers, white people, stupid, these craggers. But like it's
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such a good movie. It brings everybody in.
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Okay.
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So my hot take is that perhaps maybe the lack
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of pushback from kind of the conservative white right is
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because there is a little bit I also love the movie,
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I should say first, but I think there is a
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little bit of a confusion around the messaging that resists.
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Maybe it's easy categorization as a film that says don't
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trust white people, or white people are evil, white people
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are basically vampires, culture vultures, however you want to characterize it.
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But so before we get into this, Leslie, you say
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it's already canon that people are responding.
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Very positively to this movie. Why do you think that is?
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And maybe that's a good opportunity for us to just
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kind of sketch out what the plot of this thing is.
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Well, I think the main thing that gets down to
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is like it's as good as story. Ryan Coogler was
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talking about how he was pitching the movie, and it's
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how all the great you know directors pitch their you know,
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filmmakers really pitch their films. It's like they sit down
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and tell someone a story. If they get you hooked
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and you have to hear the ending, that's a real movie.
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That's a real movie. And this is a real movie.
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You can imagine him sit down and telling someone about
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all these characters. And the character is really what holds
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this film together because every single character in the film
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has their own life, even like the villainous klansmen. You
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want to know more about all of these people. All
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of them are complex, all of them have good and
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bad size, and all of them are interesting. Every minute
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they're on the screen, which, by the way, looks beautiful,
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looks gorgeous. It looks like a real movie. I think
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people are responding to it because this is how movies
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are supposed to be. This is how films used to
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be all the time. It looks great, it's filled with stars,
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but it introduces new who stars. You know, It has
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an interesting concept, a very fun plot. You want to
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watch it again after you're done watching it. It mixes
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up genres in a way that most films don't. It
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breaks the formula. I was actually reading the blog by
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a screenwriter who was furious at the movie because, like,
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the first act is about fifteen pages too long. Oh no,
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but I saw that was one of the things that
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black people most responded to, Like that part that fit,
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that part where the film And I'm sorry for not
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getting too much into the detail for people who haven't
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seen it, but the first four or five minutes of
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the movie is this, for lack of a bad term,
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world building, it feels like it could be his own
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movie just about this black community putting together a juke
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joint in one day, right, and it could be. It
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didn't You didn't need to have the vampires in it
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at all, and people were still hooked, sucked in, laughing
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in the theater. They love the characters and the world
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and it felt like the world that they live in, obviously,
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you know, the world of you know, black people in
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the modern day with ties to the past and the
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future as well, which we see in you know, I'm
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all over the place because there's so much in this
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film that people responded to, like the dance scene specifically,
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which has you know, hip hop and blues and jazz
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all mixed together. It's like, so, let's stay with this.
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Point that you opened with, which is that we've got
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like like an hour of narrative building before a vampire. Ever,
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Grace is the screen So you're a screenwriter, Josh, what
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did you make of this set up?
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It's great? I mean it's like, yeah, just a girl
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friend the other day about how like, you know, I'd
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love to talk to the screenwriter you were reading, because
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you know, let's talk about one of the most mediocre
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films ever made. Die Hard. It's I mean, was it
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that forty minutes before anything happens? He lands in the airplane.
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You see all this stuff happen. They build your character
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so you're invested in them, and it's not you know,
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And I don't even mean to compare it to Die
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Hard because it's doing all kinds of other things. And
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you know, how about Titanic? My god, what is that
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an hour and a half before they hit the iceberg? Like,
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what's going on with this idiot? What's he thinking? It's
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it's I hate criticisms like that. The first act is
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as long as it needs to be. That's why the
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movie works. So is the second act of the third
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act and all the endings.
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Yes, multi, It's just you know, if you're sitting there
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counting pages or minutes, you're doing it wrong.
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And if you're sitting there and you're you're swept up
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and it who cares? I mean it, I was boggled
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by the film. I will admit can can't talk about
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my experience seeing it because I got to see it
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about a month ago or even a little longer as
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a screening in Imax, this incredible Imax screening room. There
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are about ten other people there. I can't think of
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the last time. And we see a lot of movies
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where they come out and usually my response is like, oh,
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I can't wait. People see this, they're gonna like it
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if it's good. This one was like, I can't wait
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to check myself against like, am I nuts? Because there's
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so many things about this film that I was a
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little anxious going into. Because there's a long history of
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really successful directors who've kind of built their names doing stuff,
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finally getting complete creative control, doing something completely original, and
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then just going insane and making something like you know
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Spielwork's famous one. It is nineteen forty one, which is
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fascinating artifact, one of the worst movies ever made, And
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there are so many moments in center, so much of
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it just feels like it's just barreling towards flying off
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the rails into just complete self indulgent insanity, and it
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never does. Everything works. I'm constantly sitting there the first
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time I'm seeing it, going like, oh God, please, please,
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don't don't screw this up. But you get to the
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end of the scene, you're like, oh, he did it right.
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You get to another scene and you're like, oh, don't
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do it. You're gonna oh god no, and then it works.
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And you know, the perfect example being that ant scene
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where like, one of the things that drives me crazy
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about a lot of period films being made today is
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filmmakers will have a tendency to like not trust the
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audience to enjoy music from that period, so I'll try
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to juice it up. And I was really thrilled when
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they start playing music in the film and it's like
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it sounded right for the era. And then he goes
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and he does the thing I'm talking about, but he
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figures out a way to make it contextual and to
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make it work. That dancing is one of the most
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amazing things I've ever seen. It's just absolutely incredible. And
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again you're like, please God, make it work, Please God
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stick the landing. And then he sticks the landing, and
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you're like, I need to see this again.
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Because yeah, okay, so conscious of people who haven't seen
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the movie, I'll go ahead and set it.
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Oh yeah, you guys.
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Are desperate to talking about this dancing that I hear you.
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But I really need us to say very basically what
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the plot of this movie is.
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Well, it is about the blues.
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Okay, well, where we're introduced to these two twin brothers,
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the stack House brother Smokestack Brothers excuse me, and Stack
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who were both played by Michael B. Jordan, were told
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that they had been living up north in Chicago for
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some period of years doing illegal shenanigans with al Capone,
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and they've come back to their hometown in Mississippi with
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a bunch of money and a dream of setting up
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a juke joint. They go and visit a some kind
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of old barn type building, which they buy off of
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this slimy white man who denies that there's any clan
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around that there'll be any problems with this transaction. And
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then they go back into town and reconnect with a
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number of folks that they clearly had positive relationships in
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the past, including Chinese American grocer's family who agrees to
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paint a sign for the establishment help out in various ways.
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He has liquor down from up north, he taught. One
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of the twins reconnects with an ex partner who agrees
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to fry the food. So basically they're reconnecting ties with
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all the family and we get a sense of what
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the broader community is In addition, they reconnect with their
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little cousin, Preacher Boy, who is the son of the
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local preacher makes a lot of sense, who.
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They had given a guitar.
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As a kid before they left for Chicago, and he
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has now grown up and become not only very good
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at playing this guitar, playing the blues, but also has
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a gorgeous voice that is sort of revealed after some restraint.
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And you know, the movie is telling you that this
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guy is going to be talent, like fore grounding, this
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guy is gonna have a lot of talent. But honestly,
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when you hear this young man saying it really did
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feel mystical and magical in the way that the movie demands,
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because what we discover is that this young man's voice
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sort of not explicitly tacitly a little bit explicitly summons
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these vampires that have come to the town. And then
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there is a showdown of sorts at the jukeback at Night, sorry,
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juke join at Night, in which the vampires are obviously
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trying to suck all the blood.
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Okay, do you think I give away too much in
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that description?
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I don't think we can talk about this that just
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completely spoiled.
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I think so too. I think it's my group chat.
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I'm in a group, I'm in mini group chats obviously,
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but my group chat, my black group chat, was like, Brianna,
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you have two days to see this movie before we
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stop doing the thing where we blur the text so
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you can't see the spoilers. And so I hopped to
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when I saw the movie and that was like a
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week ago. So everyone else just has to go with
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their loinsing and get over it. Okay, all right, So
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we keep alluding to this idea that this movie is
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like a musical. Now I want to invite you both
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to talk about this scene in the juke joint that
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maybe shouldn't work, maybe maybe it should be quiet. It
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was listening to a New York New Yorker podcast where
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they were discussing it and they described it as corny
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but that it worked like it. They were very positive
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about it. Who wants to take this because both of
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you have independently brought this up. So I want to
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I want to.
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Chance to get into the key to the whole movie,
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and it's it's why, you know, so I spent a
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couple of weeks. It's just where I'm going this movie
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just slaughtered me the best way possible, and I am
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fully prepared for everybody to see it and go, what
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the hell was that mess? Are you out of your mind?
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Because I'm like, maybe it's just sometimes we just taps
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you in exactly the right way. And it was so gratifying,
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and it's been so gratifying to see people just like
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everyone's just just taken by this thing. And and that
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scene is it's just it's literally transcendent. It transcends its
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space and it's time. And there's a question as to
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whether or not, you know, is it's you know, is
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it happening, is it not happening. It's like, who cares,
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it's a movie, But it's tapping into the notion that
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the music this kid's playing is like music for the ages,
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that it's coming from this long standing musical tradition, not
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just African, you know, with the Asian and Native American
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and Irish everything, and that it's all part of this
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continuum leading into the future. And I think, I mean,
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I will absolutely see it again. It is the first
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time you get have said something's going wacky. Is when
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that guy in the Bootsy Collins get up just steps
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into the scene. Is that kind of like I don't
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remember seeing anybody else, and you know this electric guitar
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full on seventies funk Master, and you're going, what So.
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In the film, it's all been leading up to this
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big party, this one night of freedom. The kind of
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freedom and exclusivity of this juke joint off some ways
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away from town is sort of framed as an escape
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from the oppressiveness of the Jim Crows House, and so
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there's this kind of catharsis in this scene where we've
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been waiting. We've seen all the planning again, the movie
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is like an hour with just the planning of this night,
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and you finally get this big performance where, in a
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kind of magical surrealist moment, you get a visual representation
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of the musical traditions that led up to the Blues,
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including like an African dancer, and then also the lineage
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of the Blues extending into the future with this afro
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futurist Bootsy Collins type performer. And then also in a
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nod to the Chinese American couple who is friends with
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this community and helping out in the kind of like
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tending bar and stuff in the juke joint, a kind
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of traditional Chinese dancer, and it feels very much like
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a you know again, it should be a kind of corny.
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It feels like a kind of corny wear of the world,
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all holding hands, look at the synthesis of the melting
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pot and how beautiful America is moment. But there's something
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about the score, the intensity of it, that doesn't feel
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cheap in the least. And I was sort of looking
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around in the music theater and the movie theater like
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is everyone else buying this? It's like, am I the
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only one who's kind of into this because I'm a
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corn dog?
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No?
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It really I have not heard a single person say
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anything negative about this scene.
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Yeah, you know, I'm right with you, both of you.
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It's like when it first started, I was like, oh
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my god, because I love the movie up everything up
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until that point. That was the first time I was like, oh,
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this is where it happens. He directed those, he directed those, Yeah,
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he directed those, those Black Panther movies. This is where
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it happens. But then about you know, as it keeps
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going and you start seeing the people from the past,
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like the more and when the bootsy Goalvilins guy shows up.
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That was kind of like when I was like, okay, because,
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like you said, that electric guitar cutting through, it's like
327
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Googler the reason why the scene works. We're never going
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to get to the bottom of it because it is
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the sort of alchemy that the film is talking about
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that music can do. This scene does not make any sense.
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It does not fit in the movie. It does not
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fit even in the genre of horror at all. But
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it's the best scene in the film. Everyone loves it
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because it brings together so many different things in the
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perfect way and the way it's shot and paced, and
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I know if a lot of people know, it's like
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it feels. It's not obviously it's not actually one take,
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but it has that style of it. I didn't even
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notice it until when I was watching it because of
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how it's shot. It keeps just this energy going and
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going and just moves you along with it, and that's
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the magic of film. It should not work. This scene
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should not work. This should be corny. This is people
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have tried to do this type of scene many many times,
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or try to make points like this many many times.
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And like Josh was talking about, like what's the Netflix
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show is it Bridgton that uses contemporary music and you
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know discorcordant way, it's like none of it works as well,
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and maybe it's not fair to these creators, but he
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just hit it just right and all the maybe even
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when the people show up in the order in the space,
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when they show the turntable, everything is very carefully crafted
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how this scene is shot, and maybe it's just the
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how he did and he did it so carefully that
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it works. And the joy we see from all the
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characters too, that we've met up into this point that
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we know are about to die. That's also like a
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really like that helps bring it along, Like when you
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see the Asian the Chinese waitress, like when she's dancing
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while she's serving, Like that's joyful, that makes you, that
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brings you up in a way that's just interesting and
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just that it's really unique to film and cinema.
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And then he's so good is the thing. I'm always like,
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there's a few movies that do this where you know,
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because he's making this movie and he's knowing that so much,
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it is going to hinge on being to pull up,
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you know, and then I have to pull off this
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incredible scene that's almost impossible, and then everything will be great,
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and he's just going about his business and doing that.
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I think the two that all has come in my
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mind are there's a scene in Mulholland Drive where Naomi
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Watts is an actress, has to go give an audition,
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and the entire film hinges on it being the best
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audition you've ever seen. You're like, how do you That's
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like that takes just incredible just confidence.
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The last dance you what I read perfectly executed.
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Or where there's a great there's a great line in
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The Princess Bride's script where you go with the writer writes,
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what follows is the greatest sword fight you've ever seen
380
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in a movie, and then what follows is the greatest
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sword fight you've ever seen in the movie. They're going
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into this. They're not going, Hey, we're gonna be you know,
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we're great, we know what we're doing. We're gonna kick it.
384
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We're like, we're gonna conceive and and and film and
385
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direct and everything. I'm gonna make a scene that's so
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fucking good it blows people's minds that almost nobody on
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the planet can pull off. Cool. What day are we
388
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shooting that Thursday. Great, what's Friday? It's incredible, It's oh
389
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my god.
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So Leslie, you uh sort of said the music isn't
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necessarily for the genre of horror. I do want to say,
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counterpoint shop of horror movie musical Sweeney Todd and movie musical.
393
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There are a.
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Horror horror movies.
395
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There's horror.
396
00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.039
But like if it was like, I feel like it's
397
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not actually a musical. It just gets to that point.
398
00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:12.400
That's what I meant.
399
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:14.960
But but I do think it's interesting because I years
400
00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:16.599
and years ago, I dated this guy who was in
401
00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:19.359
a like a musical theater program at YU.
402
00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:21.799
There's just a whole cast of characters in my past.
403
00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:23.319
But one thing that he was saying is he was
404
00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:27.519
taking this musical writing class, was that a.
405
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Music like people don't like musicals.
406
00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:31.119
Some people don't like musicals because they feel like the
407
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:34.240
music interrupts the scene and it's artificial and YadA, YadA, YadA.
408
00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:36.319
But this is a sign I'm a good musical is
409
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:39.039
that the song should be able to do something narratively
410
00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:42.759
that would be very difficult to accomplish, uh with words,
411
00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:45.200
with dialogue, it can do it more efficiently. It can
412
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make time past time travel happen. It can make sort
413
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of achieve an emotional connection that would be difficult to
414
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demonstrate in like a very short period of time one film.
415
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It should be additive, not just a filler that is
416
00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:01.599
duplicative of what's happening in the narrative, and I think
417
00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:04.240
that this scene sort of accomplished that.
418
00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:05.680
That being said, I think.
419
00:21:05.559 --> 00:21:06.880
Now we have to get to the nitty gritty of
420
00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:08.880
what this movie was actually trying to say and do.
421
00:21:09.319 --> 00:21:10.799
And to do that, I think we need to say
422
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:12.920
a little bit more about what happens plot. Why so,
423
00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:19.440
here are some more spoilers. The night goes awry because
424
00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:24.799
three white vampires show up. We were introduced to one
425
00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:27.519
of the vampires in the very opening scene of the movie.
426
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:31.079
We see a white man who's mostly naked in sort
427
00:21:31.119 --> 00:21:37.400
of almost inflames, sort of like coal simmering embers, running
428
00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:41.200
at dawn through like a field up to a house.
429
00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:43.960
He bangs on the door, asks to come in, says
430
00:21:43.960 --> 00:21:46.200
he's being chased by Native Americans, and in fact he is.
431
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:50.279
The white couple who owns the house ultimately let him in.
432
00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:52.960
You see a Ku Klux Klan robe in the background
433
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suggesting of course, that they are in the clan. And
434
00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.759
after trusting this guy, the woman comes upstairs and sees
435
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.200
that he has eaten her husband and also her baby.
436
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:05.279
And turn them.
437
00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:08.319
Interestingly, we don't hear anything about that baby going forward.
438
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I guess it doesn't get turned, but never mind. Later
439
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:16.480
the three now vampiric white people show up at this
440
00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:19.680
juke joint. But they don't just show up saying hey,
441
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I'm a vampire, let me in. They have to be
442
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:25.839
invited in per vampire lore, and part of their pitch
443
00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:29.039
is that they are a sort of Irish folk group
444
00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:31.839
who just is there to appreciate music, that they heard
445
00:22:31.839 --> 00:22:34.759
the music coming from inside, and as fellow music lovers
446
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.200
and implicitly fellow people who are sort of outsiders who
447
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:41.559
have been discriminated against by the white man, that they
448
00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:44.920
should be part of this community too, And ultimately, while
449
00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:47.759
the black people are suspicious to turn them away because
450
00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:50.119
so many of the guests at the juke joint are
451
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:53.759
unable to pay in legal tender, because it looks like
452
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:56.559
that's some kind of a company town situation where they're
453
00:22:56.599 --> 00:23:03.240
paid in nichols by exactly exactly, which.
454
00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:04.720
By the way, I think we should point out for
455
00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:07.839
the audience was a thing and continued on past share
456
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sharecropping to the coal mining days as well.
457
00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:11.839
Yes.
458
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:16.440
Yes, So they ultimately decided, okay, let's go send someone
459
00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:18.359
out to see if those white people are still around
460
00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:20.440
because they might have real money. And they end up
461
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:24.519
sending out this woman who is an octor room one
462
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:27.759
eighth black who had a relationship with one of the twins,
463
00:23:28.519 --> 00:23:30.279
to go and see if she can suss them out,
464
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.440
you know, as someone who presents as white. She ultimately
465
00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:36.000
gets turned I mean, this is the biggest spoiler. Sorry,
466
00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:38.839
she ultimately gets turned into a vampire. It is invited
467
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:41.839
back in because they think she's one of them, and
468
00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:46.440
then there's a standoff of some vampires that could turned
469
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:51.640
outside versus the people inside. Okay, so this music, the
470
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.039
beautiful music in the scene that we just described and
471
00:23:54.119 --> 00:23:58.720
the incredible vocals and talent of Preacher Boy are juxtaposed
472
00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:02.160
in a series of scenes with the Irish folk music
473
00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:07.000
being played by these three vampires that are trying to
474
00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:08.799
get in. And then as they are able to turn
475
00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:11.240
more and more black people, there is this big, more
476
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:17.119
cacophonous performance that they do that incorporates many of the people,
477
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:20.759
many of the occupants of the juke joint, that.
478
00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:23.000
If the Irish vampire bites you, you now know all
479
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:26.680
the Irish folks as well as becoming a vampire.
480
00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:29.319
That's an important point. So the Irish people.
481
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:31.519
Again, any of you can take over describing the plot
482
00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:34.240
if you would prefer to do it instead of me.
483
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:37.359
But one of the things that gets revealed is that
484
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:40.319
when the vampire sucks your blood, he absorbs all over
485
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:43.519
sort of knowledge. So when the husband and the Chinese
486
00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:47.279
American couple gets eaten, suddenly he can speak Chinese. He's
487
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:51.720
speaking Chinese to the wife, says some very personal things
488
00:24:51.720 --> 00:24:55.880
about their sexual behavior. There's a lot of eating for
489
00:24:55.880 --> 00:24:58.880
a vampire. There's a lot of different kind of eating discussed.
490
00:24:58.519 --> 00:24:59.400
In this film.
491
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:03.000
And she's it freaks her out. She's like, what the
492
00:25:03.039 --> 00:25:05.960
heck this white man is speaking Chinese. This is like
493
00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:08.359
I was sort of freaked out by vampires, But what's
494
00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:12.160
really freaking is this white man is speaking Chinese. Okay,
495
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:15.279
And ultimately it is her fear that he is going
496
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.599
to go with all the knowledge that he has to
497
00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:20.000
go back into town and kill the daughter that we
498
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:23.000
saw working in the town that causes her to panic
499
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:25.640
and basically say all right, come in, don't go kill
500
00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:27.599
my daughter. Come in, we'll fight you here and now,
501
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:32.400
which ends the standoff of the inside outside vampires versus
502
00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:36.160
the inside people and instigates a big, the big kind
503
00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:41.200
of penultonate fight scene. All that being said, while I
504
00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:45.839
enjoyed it narratively, I found myself a little unsure as
505
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:48.519
to what we were supposed to take away from the
506
00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:53.519
role that music was playing and what Ryan Coogler was
507
00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:58.000
saying about the liminal sort of inside outside status of
508
00:25:58.039 --> 00:26:01.599
these Irish folk singers. How we were supposed to respond
509
00:26:01.799 --> 00:26:05.440
to the folk music when it first was played on
510
00:26:05.480 --> 00:26:09.480
the screen and was very a very like stark juxtaposition
511
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:11.559
to the kind of soulful blues that we were hearing
512
00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:15.839
from the inside. What did you guys make of this?
513
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:17.279
What was the movie actually saying?
514
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:21.119
Well, I don't think the movie was tried to say,
515
00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:25.079
for example, that Irish folk music is bad or evil,
516
00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:28.720
or or the way in or that ally ship is
517
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:31.240
false or anything like that. I think ultimately it's a
518
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:34.079
story about the real world and shows the good and
519
00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:37.920
bad side, the negative and positive size about many you
520
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:42.440
know things, Every character has positive aspects, even the Klansmen.
521
00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:46.720
The Klansmen are funny. They're funny and charming in this film. Okay,
522
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.759
So like, this is not a film that's trying to
523
00:26:49.960 --> 00:26:54.000
make it see to trying to pass like a specific
524
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.559
judgment or a polemic. It's like telling a story. Obviously
525
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:00.880
has themes and ideas, But I don't think I hear
526
00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:04.799
what you're saying. I don't think Ryan Kugler wants us
527
00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:09.200
to have a reading that, say, like the Asian grosser,
528
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:12.480
because she invites the vampires in that means that you know,
529
00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:15.960
Asian can't be trusted. I don't think that's what he's
530
00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:18.240
trying to do at all. It's just like, that's what
531
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:21.119
that's kind of the sword twist you need to have
532
00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:23.759
in the horror movie. Why would why would the Why
533
00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:26.079
would they invite the vampires? And all the people inside
534
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:28.480
are too smart, they're savvy. In fact, a lot of
535
00:27:28.519 --> 00:27:30.799
people are praising the movie because the black people in
536
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.480
this film act like black people say they would act
537
00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:36.920
in a movie, right, but still yes.
538
00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:39.839
Can you have it both ways? Like, I agree that
539
00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:44.119
Coogler seems very conscious of the stereotype that in white
540
00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:47.240
horror movies, black people die first, even though in real
541
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:50.119
life we believe that we wouldn't do the silly things
542
00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:52.799
that white people do to advance the narrative, obviously, but
543
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.759
in white horror movies. And there was a horror movie
544
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:58.119
a few years ago called The Blackening that really played
545
00:27:58.119 --> 00:28:00.160
hard on all of those tropes. I was like, it's
546
00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:04.359
pretty surprisingly funny, and in this movie, the black people
547
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:09.680
don't mess up. And in fact, it is the black
548
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:12.559
partner of one of the twins who deals with who's
549
00:28:12.559 --> 00:28:14.519
a kind of they call it whodoo, but a kind
550
00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:17.640
of you know, voodoo mystic, who is the one that
551
00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:20.720
identifies what the vampires are, who understands how to sess
552
00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:23.000
out if someone is a vampire, who knows all the
553
00:28:23.079 --> 00:28:26.960
vampire rules, and who ultimately gives them a leg up
554
00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:28.680
on being able to hold them off at least.
555
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:29.519
For a period of time.
556
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:34.640
So between that and this mostly white woman, the one
557
00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:38.960
eighth black woman who is the tool of ultimate betrayal.
558
00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:42.440
Played by an actress who's actually I believe when it's black.
559
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:46.799
Yes yes, Ales has said infield, how how can the
560
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:50.119
movie escape these characters this sort of characterizations? How can
561
00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:52.519
it get to benefit from being like, oh, yeah, black
562
00:28:52.519 --> 00:28:57.400
people don't do stupid stuff in horror movies without also
563
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:00.680
being about, yes, you can't trust the ally ship of
564
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:02.920
white people and Asian people in horror movies.
565
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:06.039
Well, here's the thing. Potentially, that character you mentioned, I
566
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:12.039
think Annie, who's played by wound Me Musaku, I think, yeah,
567
00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:14.960
she sees the bones and she see and she was
568
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:17.720
in Lovecraft Country, which we talked about and a lot
569
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.400
of people are talking about because of sinners. When she
570
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:24.039
does her reading, she sees that they're all going to
571
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:26.319
die that night, and they were going to die either
572
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:30.000
way because think about and I'm stealing this point from
573
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:34.720
a Tanana Reevedu, who is an amazing writer and in
574
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.039
fact a lot of people are recommending her work because
575
00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:40.359
she wrote about an amazing black vampire series called the
576
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:44.200
African Immortal Series. But she pointed out that if you
577
00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:47.400
take the vampires out of the movie, entirely was this
578
00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:51.200
movie about. It's about these this town, all the black
579
00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:54.599
folks in this town getting together, starting up a juke joint,
580
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:57.599
and then the clan comes and kills them all. That's
581
00:29:57.680 --> 00:30:00.960
what the movie would have been without the vampires, because
582
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:03.599
the clan does show up and they would have killed
583
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:07.680
them all, presumably even if the vampires hadn't happened. So
584
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:11.079
just to say all that the horror, when you add
585
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:14.279
in the horror element, you just gotta kind of accept
586
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:17.960
that there are going to be plot contrivances. But at
587
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:19.559
the end of the day, it's like the clan was
588
00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:21.240
going to kill them all. They were all in it
589
00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:24.880
kind of together even And I don't know, I don't
590
00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:28.880
think Ryan Coogler is trying to make some that sort
591
00:30:28.960 --> 00:30:32.039
of point racial point about allyship or anything like that.
592
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:33.759
It's just like, these are real characters.
593
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:35.839
I don't think he's making a simple one. That's because
594
00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:38.759
simple sort of with you, Brianna, where like it didn't
595
00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:40.599
it didn't hang me up at all, but as it
596
00:30:40.599 --> 00:30:43.480
was stuff to conjure with afterwards. Where because the Jack
597
00:30:43.480 --> 00:30:45.920
o'connall character, the Irish vampire at the heart of it,
598
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:48.079
who by the way, I love that actor and he
599
00:30:48.119 --> 00:30:50.039
needs to be and you should have been a movie
600
00:30:50.039 --> 00:30:55.960
star years ago. He he's so sincere, and they really
601
00:30:56.000 --> 00:31:00.319
are tapping into that. Uh you know, there there is
602
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:03.240
a long standing when you when you I mean, I'm
603
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:06.319
half Irish. It's like of all the people in the world,
604
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:10.200
who have sort of suffered oppression, like Irish, are amazing
605
00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:12.359
at still being in a position where they identify with
606
00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:12.920
the oppressed.
607
00:31:13.240 --> 00:31:17.279
Yeah, there are favorite whites exactly right, for sure.
608
00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:19.480
I mean, but they're you know, they're my favorite whites too.
609
00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:20.480
I meant, you know.
610
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:23.559
And and we and to get into the real spoilers though,
611
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:30.240
you know, the people who do survive survive because uh,
612
00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:32.319
and this is major spoilers, folks, but it's in the
613
00:31:32.359 --> 00:31:35.319
trailer now. A couple of them survive as vampires.
614
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:37.039
First they come back and let's do us.
615
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:40.160
Yeah, a couple of them survive as vampires. So Rhymnick
616
00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:43.759
showing up actually saved a couple of people.
617
00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:47.839
Still, about this, specifically, what we're leaving, we've left out
618
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:51.319
an important part of the appeal. It's not that they
619
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:53.240
just come and they sing the music. After they're revealed
620
00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:56.000
to be vampires. They make a specific pitch, which is
621
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:59.799
that my people have been oppressed too, that Christianity has
622
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:03.279
been forced upon my people too, that the white people
623
00:32:03.319 --> 00:32:06.240
in this town plan to kill you in the morning.
624
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:09.440
I ate the clan member, and I knew they were
625
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:12.880
planning to come and kill you all anyway. Becoming a
626
00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:15.480
vampire is a means to escape. It's a means to
627
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:18.039
level up out of Jim Crow and to empower you
628
00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:20.000
in a system in which you're never going to be
629
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:22.960
able to succeed because it's rigged against you. And so
630
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:25.599
the movie does make this very explicit sort of pitch.
631
00:32:26.480 --> 00:32:30.279
The vampireness of it all plays a very specific role
632
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:33.319
in the Jim Crow South as a kind of solution
633
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:40.519
to racial segregation, division, et cetera. But the outcome of
634
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:43.480
the movie, I don't know this, you know, is I
635
00:32:43.480 --> 00:32:47.759
think ambiguous about whether or not the vampire is offering
636
00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:50.279
a good dealer or not, if the vampire's pitch is
637
00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:51.839
made in good faith, if I.
638
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:56.640
May, yeah, ambiguity as a vampire coming from a handy
639
00:32:57.000 --> 00:33:00.400
it is like, I think, you know, going to turn
640
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:05.599
you into vampire. It's a horrible thing, but it's made
641
00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:08.880
in good faith from the perspective of someone in his situation,
642
00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:12.240
you know what I mean. He's not, but it is
643
00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:14.160
playing with a lot of stuff that you're talking about,
644
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:17.240
and it is I think his affection for them and
645
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:20.720
his connection with them is sincere, I think as a vampire,
646
00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:23.119
and no matter how sincere he is, he's not trustworthy.
647
00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:25.480
I would say that's a good way to go through life.
648
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:30.720
Just don't trust vampires. But he's offering them power. If
649
00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:33.000
you could have the power that I have, you could
650
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:36.599
be like me and you could ultimately abuse that power.
651
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:38.960
And I hadn't even thought of this. And maybe this
652
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:40.839
is all stuff that's just on to everybody's mind now,
653
00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:42.039
but it's kind of I'm thinking about some of the
654
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:45.119
stuff Tin of Easy Coach wrote about in his recent book,
655
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:46.880
where he's sort of like, you know, I would like
656
00:33:46.960 --> 00:33:49.279
to think that if my people ever had the power
657
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:51.599
that these people have, we would not become these people.
658
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:55.680
And that's an interesting question, you know, and that that
659
00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:59.160
is definitely be because here's this. You know, he's irish,
660
00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:02.720
he's he understands oppression, and now he has the power
661
00:34:02.920 --> 00:34:06.440
to overcome it. And how does he do it? He
662
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:08.000
hurts people, you know.
663
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:09.920
And by the way he was running away from those
664
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:11.920
Native Americans in the beginning, it was suggest to me
665
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:15.079
that he was not doing something kind to them. Right, Yes,
666
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:18.239
he praying on all of the people of color, and.
667
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:21.760
WHOA, that's presumptuous. We did not see what happened. For
668
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:24.280
all we know those are cops all right, those are
669
00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:31.800
like vampire cops chasing the important but for real, but
670
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:35.800
for real. It's like there's an ambiguity to this which
671
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:37.519
makes it a good movie. And I think one thing
672
00:34:37.519 --> 00:34:39.960
to point out is like how the vampires are presented
673
00:34:40.119 --> 00:34:43.280
in the first part of the film are very traditional
674
00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:46.760
movie vampires and they're kind of gross and zombie like,
675
00:34:47.199 --> 00:34:49.039
but then at the end of the movie they're like
676
00:34:49.159 --> 00:34:53.639
smooth ass and rice style vampires who like you know,
677
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:58.679
are seemingly healthy, wealthy, and rich, which I think just
678
00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:01.679
adds more to the am guity because it seemed like
679
00:35:01.719 --> 00:35:04.800
a worse deal early on, if because when he bites them,
680
00:35:04.880 --> 00:35:07.599
like their wounds don't heal, or any things like I
681
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:10.159
don't want to live forever with like a big gaping
682
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:12.760
hole in my neck. But we do see, like, I
683
00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:15.559
don't know, maybe they can make a life out of it.
684
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:15.800
Now.
685
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:18.880
This does bed questions like what have they been doing?
686
00:35:18.960 --> 00:35:21.360
Where were they during the Civil rights movement?
687
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:21.960
If they do?
688
00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:23.599
Okay, so if.
689
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:31.079
We will find out before we die this movie.
690
00:35:32.119 --> 00:35:34.639
So I guess I'm just trying to be conscious of,
691
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:37.360
you know, for people who haven't listened and want to
692
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:39.440
don't you know, don't care about spoilers that are listening
693
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:42.280
or haven't seen the movie, that we are grounding what
694
00:35:42.320 --> 00:35:44.440
we are talking about. So if we're gonna jump to
695
00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:45.639
the gonna talk about the end.
696
00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:47.159
We should set that up.
697
00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:50.239
What you're talking about these an rights versions of the vampires, Leslie.
698
00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:54.639
But before we get there, though, this idea of the
699
00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:57.599
ambiguity that's set up in the movie, because a very
700
00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:01.039
sort of the characters have very different approaches to the
701
00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:03.960
vampires on what they're offering. Of course, we have the
702
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:08.239
kind of hoodoo character who makes it very clear that
703
00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:12.559
the offer of living forever having more power overcoming white
704
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:15.199
people is not on the cards for her. That she
705
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:18.639
makes her partner, one of the Googlers, promise her to
706
00:36:18.760 --> 00:36:21.079
kill her dead, a permanent death with a stake through
707
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:23.519
the heart. And because she's sort of like the moral
708
00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:28.559
center of this movie, her approach to the vampires, her
709
00:36:28.599 --> 00:36:31.159
clarity on the sort of false promise of what the
710
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:34.079
vampires have to offer, did seem to meet a whole
711
00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:39.159
kind of special weight, and the movie did seem to
712
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:44.880
privilege her perspective, if I can so that while there
713
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:48.840
is some ambiguity, it did seem more likely to me
714
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:51.199
the prevailing message of the movie was that this is
715
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:53.360
a false bark hand, this isn't the way to do it,
716
00:36:53.599 --> 00:36:55.760
which does make an interesting then, to your point, Leslie,
717
00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:58.079
when we get this sort of time jump and one
718
00:36:58.119 --> 00:36:59.960
of these mini endings that we get at the end
719
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:03.719
into the movie where we see the vampire Kugler and
720
00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:09.039
the Octoroon that Haley's Sheddon Field have lived until nineteen
721
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:12.000
ninety two, and we see them in great like mid
722
00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:15.760
nineties outfits walking into a jazz club where they bring
723
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:24.760
I'm so sorry, I'm sorry, Michael B. Jordan's character, sorry,
724
00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:32.559
one of the stack House Stockhouse Smokestack brothers and uh,
725
00:37:33.519 --> 00:37:36.480
the vampire version of him and the Hailey Sheddon Field
726
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:41.400
character walk into this bar and meet the now old
727
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:44.960
version of Preacher Boy. And to your point, Leslie, they
728
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:48.599
look great. They're clean. There's no open wounds the way
729
00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:51.159
earlier in the movie it's suggested that the wounds never heal.
730
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:54.960
Blow had a Coogie Sweather on. He had a Cougie Sweather,
731
00:37:55.679 --> 00:37:58.960
a fad, a flat top. He was looking tough.
732
00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:03.440
Yes, yes, And at first, since meniscing him, We're like, oh, no,
733
00:38:03.719 --> 00:38:06.599
have they been tracking this guy for like fifty years
734
00:38:06.639 --> 00:38:06.880
and other.
735
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:09.480
I like that. I like that that. It was scary
736
00:38:09.559 --> 00:38:11.599
at the end, it's like, oh fuck, it's like Salem's
737
00:38:11.639 --> 00:38:12.320
allotting him.
738
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:16.159
Okay, all right, yeah, But then we discover that no,
739
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:19.760
he's made a promise to his brother that the brother says,
740
00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:21.239
I'm not going to kill you dead as a vampire.
741
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:23.000
I'll let you live, but you have to promise to
742
00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:26.400
leave our cousin alone. And so there's this interesting exchange
743
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:28.599
where again we have this other insight into whether or
744
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:30.920
not it's good quote unquote good or worth it to
745
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:33.320
take this bargain and become a vampire. They offered a
746
00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:37.039
turn Preacher Boy now preacher old Man, and Preacher old
747
00:38:37.119 --> 00:38:41.239
Man says, no, I'm good. I have a legacy. I've
748
00:38:41.239 --> 00:38:43.880
been playing this music. The implication being I'm part of
749
00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:47.159
this musical tradition. I don't I will live forever because
750
00:38:47.159 --> 00:38:51.079
I've done it through this music. I don't need the vampirism.
751
00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:52.920
Buddy guy, for God's sake, I mean, you know, one
752
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:54.679
of the greatest blues musicians.
753
00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:58.599
Ever playing the old versus Yeah, I mean, what do
754
00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:00.960
you do? What do you take a reading? Because I
755
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:04.639
I kind of got I decided sort of that the
756
00:39:04.639 --> 00:39:07.920
movie did not think that the vampiresm was a solution.
757
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:12.079
That being said, what then do you make of the
758
00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:14.960
like that that says to me that this pitch, this
759
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:17.840
this idea of solidarity with these Irish performers that I
760
00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:19.800
kind of like for all the reasons that we like
761
00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:22.519
the Irish and the way that the Irish music. At
762
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:25.360
first I found it it fell a little flat next
763
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:26.639
to the the Blues that we.
764
00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:31.039
Had heard, Yeah the number to open with.
765
00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:33.400
Yeah, I mean it felt like a joke, and it
766
00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:35.599
played like a joke in my theater, like like black
767
00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:38.280
people were sort of laughing on how lame this music was.
768
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:40.639
But then later when they turned a bunch of the
769
00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:43.639
black people and had a bigger chorus, it felt like, oh,
770
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:46.440
this kind of slabs like it's giving old brother Ralph
771
00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:48.840
foul Like okay, like I'm gonna start doing a little
772
00:39:48.840 --> 00:39:52.480
clog number, you know, And so I I then I
773
00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:56.400
felt a little I don't know, I felt a little
774
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:57.960
the more time that I got away from the movie
775
00:39:58.000 --> 00:39:58.800
in the theater.
776
00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:00.719
A little.
777
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:06.920
Frustrated, maybe because as a leftist I liked the idea
778
00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:11.679
of this kind of interracial solidarity being successful I liked
779
00:40:11.719 --> 00:40:15.599
the idea, particularly of this Irish immigrant being able to
780
00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:18.960
lead together with these blacks and the Chinese folks and
781
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:24.639
to sort of empower themselves that way. And if we're
782
00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:28.480
getting a very different message like solidary doesn't matter, like
783
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:29.880
is this overthinking it?
784
00:40:30.199 --> 00:40:34.000
Well or he's go ahead. Here's how I think about it,
785
00:40:34.039 --> 00:40:36.719
and I think it is basic directly to your point.
786
00:40:36.800 --> 00:40:38.800
So we haven't mentioned. I talked a lot about the
787
00:40:38.840 --> 00:40:41.440
fact that this movie is about twins. We have different
788
00:40:41.480 --> 00:40:45.000
personalities and different views and all these issues. You can
789
00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:48.480
take either view, like, yes, you see the older jazz man,
790
00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:51.760
he says, I don't need to be a vampire. But yeah,
791
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:55.320
but this the blues excuse me, very very big difference.
792
00:40:55.840 --> 00:40:57.760
Especially yes, yes, but.
793
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:03.119
You also we'll see that, yes, the twin is happy
794
00:41:03.480 --> 00:41:06.400
to be himself and be a vampire. He had he
795
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:09.679
was happy and they both said that that was the
796
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:13.320
best night of their lives, you know, before the court
797
00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:14.360
that that.
798
00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:16.880
Suggested to me, like he's sort of happy, but he's
799
00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:17.639
not that happy.
800
00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:19.920
Well who is? You know what? You know?
801
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.119
What can you says? There's a certain ambiguity to it, right,
802
00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:27.000
like you know there's gonna be like there's always going
803
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:30.239
to I mean, think about if, if, but if the
804
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:33.039
blues Man also said that that was the best night
805
00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:35.519
of his life. That's pretty sad too. He was eighteen.
806
00:41:35.800 --> 00:41:38.239
He's never had a better night than his first night
807
00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:40.920
at the Duke Joint where all his friends died. That's
808
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:44.039
also up until up until up until up until I
809
00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:44.760
forgot yes.
810
00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:46.000
And that is I mean, but it's the first moment
811
00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:48.280
where he gets to cut loose and be himself fully.
812
00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:50.760
I mean that that's memorable, you know, I did. I
813
00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:53.079
don't know that that seems like a reasonable thing to say,
814
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:55.239
because that is really like the first time I ever
815
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:57.719
got in front of a crowd and really played my
816
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:01.000
heart and it went like that, like hell, yeah, that's
817
00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:02.280
the best out of my life.
818
00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:08.760
And yeah, and well, I'm just saying, there's no one,
819
00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:11.440
no one, no, no black person in this film gets
820
00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:15.320
to have, you know, a perfect, happy, clean ending. There's
821
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:17.920
there's no right answer. I think.
822
00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:20.239
No. I think there's part in the film that you
823
00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:22.119
talk like to who's the white guy who comes out
824
00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:25.360
of that film? All right? Yeah, like all those clan
825
00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:26.360
guys are dead at the end.
826
00:42:26.440 --> 00:42:28.280
Yeah, all the clan guys they get killed too. That
827
00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:31.199
was that was the one like revisionist thing that again
828
00:42:31.719 --> 00:42:35.360
a scene that kind of doesn't fit in a horror movie,
829
00:42:35.559 --> 00:42:37.480
but we love it. We love to see it.
830
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:39.719
I tell you why too, because I think so much
831
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:42.079
of you know, you keep sing ambivalent, and it's like
832
00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:46.079
I would quibble only slightly by saying complex, but you know,
833
00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:46.639
it's it's.
834
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:49.119
Splitting same saying different when I yes say.
835
00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:53.320
That scene and it's like characters have had to watch
836
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:56.400
people they love die or kill people they love. You know,
837
00:42:56.519 --> 00:42:59.239
it's just this awful thing and and it's so dark
838
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:01.760
and it's so and one of the things I love
839
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:05.320
about that scene afterwards, because this is not this is
840
00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:08.840
not a movie that's trying to confound you. This is
841
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:11.199
a movie. This is a full course meal. And he
842
00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:17.800
knows I need ten minutes of just pure righteous vengeance
843
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:21.239
and violence. I need to see there is nothing. I'm
844
00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:25.199
sorry cinematically like I can't eve then watching like you know,
845
00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:27.679
a black man with a machine gun wiping out forty
846
00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:31.840
seven klanmen and you just sit there going fuck yeah
847
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:34.280
all the way through. And then not only since we're
848
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:37.239
doing spoilers, does he kill the ball. He then gets
849
00:43:37.280 --> 00:43:39.719
reunited with a woman he loves and their child who
850
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:43.360
died a long time ago. And I literally was crying
851
00:43:43.400 --> 00:43:44.039
at that point.
852
00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:46.880
It was just and we're not even sad that he
853
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:48.360
doesn't make it out alive.
854
00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:55.559
Because he turns in He Caesar, just we're crazy.
855
00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:59.480
It's just like just said, I were talking about the scene.
856
00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:03.280
The morning after the big Vampires showdown, the sun comes up,
857
00:44:03.400 --> 00:44:08.440
the Big Batty gets killed. The surviving Smokestack brother decides
858
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:11.119
to take his weapons from having fought in World War
859
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:13.599
One and to basically lay a trap for the clans
860
00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:16.000
members that again he knows are coming to get him
861
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:19.800
because in a weird act the legitimate solidarity or just
862
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:22.639
you know, just a convenient tip that he got from
863
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:26.639
an enemy. The Rmnick, though, the main vampire tells him
864
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:29.360
that this was all a trap and so he's laying
865
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:31.679
awaiting for in the trap. So he's lost everything and
866
00:44:31.719 --> 00:44:35.719
everyone that he loves, but he's at least able to
867
00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:39.519
exact some retribution on the people without whom he would
868
00:44:39.519 --> 00:44:41.840
never have been in this precarious situation in the first place,
869
00:44:41.920 --> 00:44:43.599
renting this place in the dark and the woods in
870
00:44:43.639 --> 00:44:47.639
the barn kind of vulnerable to this vampire attack. Okay,
871
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:52.280
you felt it sounds like everybody was thumbs up on
872
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:53.079
that scene.
873
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:53.840
Oh hell yeah.
874
00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:56.679
I felt like that was another one that should not
875
00:44:56.800 --> 00:45:00.239
have worked, Like the music scene. Indeed, it was this
876
00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:02.679
little Jago unchained moment and we're just gonna let him
877
00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:02.960
have it.
878
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:07.800
Yeah, very much of you know, straight out of a
879
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:11.079
seventies action movie. And yes, the hero you know, does
880
00:45:11.119 --> 00:45:13.280
get shot and die at the end, but you know,
881
00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:17.519
it's so satisfying and thrilling even after like all the
882
00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:20.719
vampires are gone. You just don't see scenes like that
883
00:45:20.840 --> 00:45:23.800
in horror movies. It's not supposed to work. But you know,
884
00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:26.760
for all the reasons Josh already explained, it was like
885
00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:30.559
kind of needed. It was kind kind of necessary. I actually,
886
00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:33.840
when you know Remick died at the well, the vampire
887
00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:36.119
gets killed and all the vampires burn up, I was like,
888
00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:39.280
I did kind of feel like is that, you know,
889
00:45:39.480 --> 00:45:41.760
I did want to see a little viscerally, I felt
890
00:45:41.800 --> 00:45:43.079
like I need a little bit more.
891
00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:44.920
You could in there. Yeah, and it would be a
892
00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:47.320
really really good film, but but there's so many you know,
893
00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:51.119
each ending provides some other kind of much needed and
894
00:45:51.159 --> 00:45:55.079
often just emotional feeling. I would also you said Jango
895
00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:58.199
and Chain moment, But is it the I mean, Django
896
00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:00.280
doesn't get a Jango and Chain moment. The white guy
897
00:46:00.360 --> 00:46:02.119
kills Leonardo DiCaprio, Like.
898
00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:04.960
This is sure, I mean, it's been a while since
899
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:07.360
I've seen Jangle, But doesn't he also march through the
900
00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:08.920
house and kill a bunch of people and I I.
901
00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:13.079
Mean kids, Yeah, not the villain. The white guy gets
902
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:16.320
to kill the mat whereas like our guy gets to
903
00:46:16.440 --> 00:46:18.679
just fucking lay awayte everyone.
904
00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:22.320
Sure. Sure, let me ask you this that the New
905
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:27.960
York Times Review very matter of factly describes the white
906
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:30.280
vampires as appropriators.
907
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:33.239
That people have really been leaning into this.
908
00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:36.559
This is an allegory for cultural appropriation and specifically because
909
00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:40.000
of the premissy of music, and I think Ryan Cooler
910
00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:42.440
even alluded to this in some interviews. I watched the
911
00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:49.400
one between him and Amy Goodman on democracy. Now that
912
00:46:50.519 --> 00:46:53.599
there is some aspect of the record industry and the
913
00:46:53.639 --> 00:46:57.800
exploitive nature of it, especially with white record producers and
914
00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:00.760
black talent, they didn't have the resources to defend themselves.
915
00:47:02.039 --> 00:47:07.639
That is sort of difficult not to read into this interaction.
916
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:09.559
What I saw.
917
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:12.599
You immediately roll your eyes at that kind of cultural appropriation.
918
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:17.400
No, just terminology. I just get frustrated. It's all. It's like,
919
00:47:17.480 --> 00:47:21.440
oh God, New York Times, just just stop. But yeah, no,
920
00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:23.119
of course those elements are there.
921
00:47:23.480 --> 00:47:26.239
Yeah, But I think the thing is Ryan Coogler, and
922
00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:28.719
we haven't talked about how funny this movie is. It
923
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:31.719
handles that topic with a lot of humor about it.
924
00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:35.239
When remixes is like it has become a meme. When
925
00:47:35.239 --> 00:47:37.960
they ask him if he's clan and he says Glancer, no,
926
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:40.639
and it's like, I would never be one of those
927
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:44.679
horrible white people. I just want the fellowship with you.
928
00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:47.400
And even when like Michael B. Jordan, he kind of
929
00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:52.239
gets into the pick poor Robin Clean, the I forget
930
00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:54.400
which one is which? People aren't mad at us for
931
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:57.199
not saying which is which, but like the kind of
932
00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:01.079
the one with the go to the pimpish kind of one,
933
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:04.039
he really kind of gets into the less serious one,
934
00:48:04.599 --> 00:48:07.800
gets into the music and like like you said that
935
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:11.000
Irish jig at the end, like that's good and it's fun.
936
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:13.519
And Ryan Coogler knows it's good. He filmed it to
937
00:48:13.559 --> 00:48:16.360
be good. He filmed it to be interesting and exciting
938
00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:19.760
for people to watch so I don't think he's ultimately
939
00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:24.039
because and even when he shows the when they showed
940
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:26.840
the dance scene with all the cultures, he does have
941
00:48:26.920 --> 00:48:30.480
those Chinese, you know, dancers in there as well. I
942
00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:33.760
don't think obviously there's a point to be made by
943
00:48:34.039 --> 00:48:37.840
cultural appropriation. But I don't think he's trying to say, like,
944
00:48:38.840 --> 00:48:40.639
I don't know, I don't think he's trying to like
945
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:43.440
give a hard condemnation. So he's saying like, this is
946
00:48:43.480 --> 00:48:46.199
a problem because black artists, you know, did not get
947
00:48:46.280 --> 00:48:48.480
paid and we're not taken care of, and most of
948
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:53.079
these blues people died, you know, penniless, you know, and homeless.
949
00:48:52.599 --> 00:48:55.639
And there is that aspect because it's interesting, and I
950
00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:57.079
don't know, it's like it is one of the things
951
00:48:57.079 --> 00:48:58.840
I should have asked myself. And again there's sort of
952
00:48:58.840 --> 00:49:00.960
the part I'm just like, I just love this movie
953
00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:05.880
and I'm not someone who it's not saying anything offensive
954
00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:08.000
to me. But even for War, I'd be like the movie,
955
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:10.920
I love it. It's it's but I do struggle a
956
00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:13.079
little bit because you know, when you get into that
957
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:14.840
conversation where it's like, well, on the one hand, this
958
00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:16.599
guy's Irish and they make such a point of that,
959
00:49:16.679 --> 00:49:19.519
They make such a point of that connection, which you
960
00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:21.400
know is a real thing. And on the other hand,
961
00:49:21.440 --> 00:49:24.840
he is now the vessel for what you're talking about,
962
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:28.159
and it's like, you know, and I think Coogler's too
963
00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:30.719
good for that to be like him just going well,
964
00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:34.199
we'll just mash the Irish people and generally white people
965
00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:36.360
together because who you know, he's not that guy. So
966
00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:40.960
it's like, yeah, is he is he saying something about
967
00:49:41.079 --> 00:49:43.280
you know, half my people that I don't want to hear.
968
00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:47.000
I hope not, but maybe, but yeah, I see what
969
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:50.519
you're saying. And it is something that that I'm kind
970
00:49:50.519 --> 00:49:54.119
of interested in in the film. And it's also like
971
00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:56.920
it should be putting. Not only is Peacher Boy good.
972
00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.199
I mean they're really tapping into the whole Robert Johnson myth.
973
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:03.679
There there is an implication that when you're watching that
974
00:50:03.760 --> 00:50:06.880
big scene, you're actually watching something supernatural when he's playing.
975
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:10.000
So this is this is another sort of question I
976
00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:16.039
had this This boy, he sings this hard. He's an
977
00:50:16.039 --> 00:50:19.000
incredible talent. I mean, the quality of his voice, it's
978
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:23.440
it's a different it's the timber of it. It's low, gorgeous,
979
00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:27.400
gorgeous performance, gorgeous voice, and in the context of the movie,
980
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:34.280
his voice literally calls the vampires to this, to this place,
981
00:50:34.280 --> 00:50:37.679
to this jutto, and he says something along the lines
982
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:40.119
of like I need to have that. Like I am
983
00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:41.360
literally an appropriator.
984
00:50:41.400 --> 00:50:42.400
I'm consuming all these things.
985
00:50:42.440 --> 00:50:44.159
I'm eating these people. I'm learning how to speech ch
986
00:50:44.159 --> 00:50:47.679
I mean, like I want to suck you. He wants
987
00:50:47.719 --> 00:50:51.599
specifically Preacher Boy, because he wants that talent. He's an appreciator,
988
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:56.400
he loves music. It's not unrealistic or like, you know,
989
00:50:56.480 --> 00:50:58.719
overly simplistic to say this guy's a cultural vulture.
990
00:50:58.719 --> 00:50:59.599
It's literally in the script.
991
00:50:59.639 --> 00:51:01.679
I mean, he does want this this kid, because he's
992
00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:05.920
so talented. That being said, I found it interesting that
993
00:51:06.159 --> 00:51:09.599
even after the vampires had consumed so many of the
994
00:51:09.639 --> 00:51:14.000
black people, who some of whom were musicians in the
995
00:51:14.079 --> 00:51:17.559
juke joint, the quality of their music didn't change. To
996
00:51:17.639 --> 00:51:19.440
have kind of set it up in the movie that
997
00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:22.440
you consume the person and you get their talent. They
998
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:25.559
just kept playing Irish music. I have expected them to
999
00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:29.239
like be like, okay, we we sucked up the old
1000
00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:33.960
blue the old harmonica pianist guy. Sorry, I'm like not
1001
00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:37.360
I should have up in front of me yet exactly
1002
00:51:37.360 --> 00:51:43.039
delray Lindo that that that would inform the music or else,
1003
00:51:43.079 --> 00:51:44.719
what's the point?
1004
00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:47.960
Well, they are backing him up in the in the end,
1005
00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:50.360
which is I'm sure intentional too, where it's like.
1006
00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:52.800
Right, but they're doing but in a Irish.
1007
00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:56.440
Just right exactly, They're they're maintaining their thing, but they're
1008
00:51:56.480 --> 00:51:59.119
taking their their you know, they're taking what they're taking
1009
00:51:59.159 --> 00:52:00.920
from these these This.
1010
00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:03.119
Is why people have this is assimilation.
1011
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:07.400
Well, this is why people are like, well, this is
1012
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:10.000
an allegory for assimilation where the promise is that it's
1013
00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:12.239
a melting pot and come to America. We can all
1014
00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:15.920
blend and take from each other and improve. But an
1015
00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:20.760
actuality is it really the assimilator's dream or is it
1016
00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:22.960
a you have to you know, you have to conform
1017
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:25.119
and I'm going to take your talents and maybe even
1018
00:52:25.119 --> 00:52:27.760
be able to profit off them someday, but you're gonna
1019
00:52:27.800 --> 00:52:31.840
be sublimated to me and my culture and my interest
1020
00:52:31.880 --> 00:52:32.400
in my song.
1021
00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:40.559
I'm looking at the scene now, right and just pulling back.
1022
00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:44.199
It just seems like he's the vampire and he needs
1023
00:52:44.280 --> 00:52:47.519
a musical scene because this is a musical and like
1024
00:52:47.559 --> 00:52:50.039
it's an Irish jig. Because of that, I understand all
1025
00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:53.199
you're saying leading up to that, but I'm also seeing
1026
00:52:53.320 --> 00:52:56.760
just like structurally like that's what the scene kind of
1027
00:52:56.960 --> 00:52:58.679
it feels like that's what the scene need to be.
1028
00:52:58.760 --> 00:53:01.480
That's what we want to see him have a good
1029
00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:03.760
How could you have this movie without having the Irish
1030
00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:06.679
jig in it? So I don't know if how much
1031
00:53:06.760 --> 00:53:07.599
to read into it.
1032
00:53:07.800 --> 00:53:08.360
I don't don't.
1033
00:53:08.480 --> 00:53:11.880
I don't know, because it just seems like it's just
1034
00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:14.039
like a good scene. It's just like it just feels
1035
00:53:14.039 --> 00:53:16.440
to me like a very just like it's a good
1036
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:19.000
scene you see, and it's funny too, you see like
1037
00:53:19.079 --> 00:53:22.639
a corn bread his face is all best stuff and
1038
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:24.679
he is Like it just seems like kind of a fun,
1039
00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:29.079
silly scene that shows how the vampire gets down and
1040
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:31.159
wants to party and what he wanted. He said he
1041
00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:34.719
wanted to and it was foreshadow like really early on
1042
00:53:34.840 --> 00:53:36.960
where he said I just want a fellowship with you,
1043
00:53:37.239 --> 00:53:40.480
and then we got to see what that actually was.
1044
00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:43.039
And I don't think we're meant to have a negative
1045
00:53:43.559 --> 00:53:46.199
reaction to that scene itself. Most people kind of like
1046
00:53:46.320 --> 00:53:48.440
the scene. I don't know. I don't know how you feel,
1047
00:53:48.440 --> 00:53:50.440
but like it feels like if we were meant to
1048
00:53:50.559 --> 00:53:53.719
have more, you know, the political reason that you're talking
1049
00:53:53.719 --> 00:53:57.039
about about appropriation to see my print presented in a
1050
00:53:57.039 --> 00:53:59.400
more terrifying way, a scarier way.
1051
00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:01.840
Because he's not hitting it that hard, and he is.
1052
00:54:01.960 --> 00:54:04.880
He is a guy who's you know, I'm so fasted
1053
00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:07.360
by him because you know, first of all, like, can
1054
00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:12.639
we how many filmmakers who've got massive Imax studio films
1055
00:54:12.639 --> 00:54:16.480
are going on Amy Goodman and have been on before
1056
00:54:16.599 --> 00:54:19.000
and have been on before with their activist father, you
1057
00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:21.079
know what I mean. It's like Ry Cooler knows what
1058
00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:24.199
he's doing, and he is I think, way more political
1059
00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:27.400
than a lot of people given credit for, certainly in Hollywood.
1060
00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:30.880
And I think, like you go back to we've talked
1061
00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:36.159
about this, Yeah, well certainly Fruitfeld station. Yeah, but the
1062
00:54:36.199 --> 00:54:41.960
Michael Jordan character in Black Panther, who is yeah, kill munger.
1063
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:44.480
And I remember once like having a very like I was.
1064
00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:47.480
I was very anxious because I'm aware enough to know
1065
00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:49.199
that you don't sit in a room full of black
1066
00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:53.360
folks and explain things to them. But I thought, wait,
1067
00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:55.800
I actually have what edge here I'm a screenwriter, because
1068
00:54:56.000 --> 00:54:57.920
there was a bunch of folks who are like rightly
1069
00:54:58.159 --> 00:55:00.840
upset with the film because you can the CIA guys
1070
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:03.199
a hero and the guy who comes closest to them
1071
00:55:03.199 --> 00:55:05.960
politically is the villain. And I said, look, here's something
1072
00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:08.280
I know. It's like, the one thing I know about
1073
00:55:08.280 --> 00:55:10.960
this is that as screenwriters is a long standing tradition
1074
00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:14.880
of us giving like speaking our true hearts through the
1075
00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:18.079
mouths of our villains, and because like that's how you
1076
00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:20.039
can get away with it. That's how the villains are memorable.
1077
00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:23.039
And there's a reason somebody people are getting that character tattooed.
1078
00:55:23.519 --> 00:55:27.000
And it's like, I it would like that character is
1079
00:55:27.039 --> 00:55:29.960
not so compelling because they don't believe in anything he's saying,
1080
00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:31.800
you know. And that was kind of the first time
1081
00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:33.519
I thought like, not only is this guy political, but
1082
00:55:33.559 --> 00:55:36.880
he's willing to put that stuff into like big mainstream entertainment.
1083
00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:40.960
So I can't. I mean, I think everything that's happening
1084
00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:42.719
in this movie is happening for a reason and not
1085
00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:43.719
just a narrative one.
1086
00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:47.800
Yeah, but then is the villain of this movie. So
1087
00:55:48.119 --> 00:55:50.679
the words that are coming out of his mouth are
1088
00:55:50.719 --> 00:55:55.159
these things they also Ryan Cooler feels maybe have some legitimacy,
1089
00:55:55.199 --> 00:55:58.400
and that's why we find them appealing in the film,
1090
00:55:58.440 --> 00:55:59.239
because oh no.
1091
00:55:59.239 --> 00:56:01.280
He's not pure. I mean, he is the one, and
1092
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:02.960
he's pure evil, but on the other end, he's not
1093
00:56:03.159 --> 00:56:05.199
entirely and he's motivated by real human things. And I
1094
00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:06.960
think that's when you when you get to that ending
1095
00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:09.599
where there's that kind of you know, look, we're not
1096
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:11.760
gonna hang and I'll probably never see you again, and
1097
00:56:12.199 --> 00:56:14.199
you know, I haven't seen you for sixty years, but
1098
00:56:14.440 --> 00:56:16.239
it is there is a kind of warmth to that
1099
00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:19.719
last scene with Buddy Guy and then the bar that's
1100
00:56:19.719 --> 00:56:22.880
still very like, we can't be together, but it was
1101
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:24.920
good to see you, you know. And these are people
1102
00:56:24.920 --> 00:56:27.119
who've just gone separate ways and have made separate decisions
1103
00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:30.199
about how they want to live their lives or their lives,
1104
00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:33.480
and and you know, there's something there about being able
1105
00:56:33.559 --> 00:56:36.599
to kind of hate the term I apologize for using it,
1106
00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:39.840
but to coexist, you know, these very different degrees. But
1107
00:56:39.920 --> 00:56:41.280
yet at the end of the day, the movie's taking
1108
00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:45.320
a very strong stand that that you know, the Preacher
1109
00:56:45.320 --> 00:56:49.039
Boy's approach is the correct one, that the you know,
1110
00:56:49.159 --> 00:56:52.480
his his wife's approach is the correct one. You These
1111
00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:54.599
are the characters who are choosing to live ultimately a
1112
00:56:54.719 --> 00:57:00.719
moral life. But there's sympathy and empathy for characters who
1113
00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:03.360
are through circumstances. It's not like he chose to be
1114
00:57:03.440 --> 00:57:06.760
a vampire who are pushed into a situation where they
1115
00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:08.480
have to somehow find a way to survive in something
1116
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:09.119
less than that.
1117
00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:10.559
Yeah, I think that's right.
1118
00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:12.480
I think what the movie is clear about that the
1119
00:57:12.519 --> 00:57:16.840
word that keeps coming up is free. I believe in
1120
00:57:16.840 --> 00:57:21.519
that last scene when they're in the nineties, many of them,
1121
00:57:21.599 --> 00:57:24.239
or at least one of them, talks about being able
1122
00:57:24.280 --> 00:57:27.360
to achieve a certain sort of freedom. Whether it's because
1123
00:57:27.400 --> 00:57:31.559
time literally passes and racism gets less, whether it's because
1124
00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:34.360
you're a vampire and you can only be hurt so
1125
00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:37.199
much because you can't die, whether you die true death
1126
00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:41.559
and you escape racism and your circumstances that way. There
1127
00:57:41.559 --> 00:57:45.559
are many potential paths, and it's left, you know, ambiguous
1128
00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:47.519
as to which is the best one. But what is
1129
00:57:47.599 --> 00:57:52.039
clear is the the circumstances are worthy of escape the circumstance.
1130
00:57:52.239 --> 00:57:55.440
But he pains very clearly and unambiguously, is the heart
1131
00:57:55.480 --> 00:57:57.559
of the harshness of the of the circumstances. And I'm
1132
00:57:57.599 --> 00:58:00.599
glad you brought up the Killmonger example, because I mean,
1133
00:58:00.599 --> 00:58:04.760
there was a lot of debate around that particular character, Leslie,
1134
00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:07.920
as I'm sure you remember, and if I recall correctly,
1135
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:10.599
I mean it's been a while since I watched Black Panther,
1136
00:58:11.239 --> 00:58:18.000
but right up until the choice of kill Monger to
1137
00:58:18.079 --> 00:58:23.480
basically so discord globally by scattering weapons everywhere, just like
1138
00:58:23.519 --> 00:58:29.639
the CIA, his sort of logic was right and just,
1139
00:58:29.800 --> 00:58:32.360
and his goals were sort of right in just and
1140
00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:36.639
it was like an implementation problem. And comparing him to Rhymnick,
1141
00:58:36.880 --> 00:58:39.519
as you've kind of asked us to do, Leslie, is interesting.
1142
00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:43.159
If we read Rymnick in the same way that we
1143
00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:49.559
read kill Monger, that he was correct and his more
1144
00:58:49.800 --> 00:58:53.119
like uh Malcolm X as opposed to Black Panthers Martin
1145
00:58:53.159 --> 00:58:56.199
Luther King approach was maybe the right one. And we're
1146
00:58:56.239 --> 00:58:58.519
not mad at him for being angry. We're not mad
1147
00:58:58.519 --> 00:59:00.599
at him for being distrustful of white it's not bad,
1148
00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:04.079
and for being protectionist or per se. We're just mad
1149
00:59:04.079 --> 00:59:07.519
at him for not understanding that using the Master's tools
1150
00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:10.239
in terms of like the cia strategies to get your.
1151
00:59:10.079 --> 00:59:13.119
Way wasn't actually good? Is that actually a good?
1152
00:59:13.119 --> 00:59:15.920
Parallel? Is that a is there a parallel in Rhemnick?
1153
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:19.599
Do we think this comes out to this question of
1154
00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:24.639
was what Remnick was offering in good faith? I could
1155
00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:27.280
see the argument, but I also saw all of the
1156
00:59:27.320 --> 00:59:30.000
symbolism around the goal, the money that Remnick had and
1157
00:59:30.039 --> 00:59:32.639
flashed in front of these black people, like your poor,
1158
00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:36.559
here's the temptation, and and here here comes this octoroon
1159
00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:39.199
who has her own privilege out here. I'm sorry if
1160
00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:43.239
people are somehow still the term oct reds were charged,
1161
00:59:43.239 --> 00:59:43.960
and I think.
1162
00:59:45.800 --> 00:59:47.039
It always makes me hungry.
1163
00:59:47.079 --> 00:59:50.719
I'm big, big apologies to all the oct out there.
1164
00:59:52.679 --> 00:59:57.119
Sorry, but I don't you know whatever?
1165
00:59:57.519 --> 00:59:59.840
Uh you know, I I kind't.
1166
01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:01.920
I'm sorry. My left his brain couldn't help trying to
1167
01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:06.280
close some loop about the lure of capitalism and the
1168
01:00:06.320 --> 01:00:10.119
false promises of being able to like talented tenth th
1169
01:00:10.159 --> 01:00:12.599
your way out of this and like generational wealth your
1170
01:00:12.639 --> 01:00:16.519
way out of these bigger systemic problems. And you know,
1171
01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:18.079
what does it mean for Remnick to have been a
1172
01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:21.800
vessel of all of that? He certainly didn't say, hey, guys,
1173
01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:23.000
full disclosure.
1174
01:00:23.079 --> 01:00:23.880
I'm a vampire.
1175
01:00:23.960 --> 01:00:26.800
I'm not trying to trick you, but if you are interested,
1176
01:00:26.920 --> 01:00:29.440
I can bite you and we can build this solidaristic
1177
01:00:29.480 --> 01:00:31.400
relationship with us and go take out down the Klan.
1178
01:00:32.440 --> 01:00:34.960
You know that's not pure. Well, what I said about
1179
01:00:34.960 --> 01:00:38.639
that the other film is is I'm a saying screenwriters
1180
01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:41.639
always do that. It's not like every villain is secretly
1181
01:00:41.679 --> 01:00:44.360
what the but but I felt that way in that movie.
1182
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:46.199
I think in this one, but he's just he's just
1183
01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:48.440
a good enough writer that it's like, you have to
1184
01:00:48.440 --> 01:00:50.800
make your feeling compelling and sympathetic. You have to be
1185
01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:55.159
able to you know, nobody walks through life going I'm
1186
01:00:55.199 --> 01:00:58.840
so evil. You know, he's he's motivated by real stuff,
1187
01:00:58.880 --> 01:01:01.800
but he also is, you know, to terrible shit. So
1188
01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:03.840
I don't think. I don't think he's like secretly the
1189
01:01:03.920 --> 01:01:06.639
character we're meant to identify with or appreciate the most.
1190
01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:09.639
But he is someone who is Yeah, you assume he's
1191
01:01:09.639 --> 01:01:11.639
been bitten too, right. I think they even talk about
1192
01:01:11.679 --> 01:01:16.440
it and and changed, and I thought that's what you
1193
01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:19.239
were talking about, sort of freedom, and it's like ultimately
1194
01:01:19.280 --> 01:01:22.440
the you know, the Michael Jordan character and the Buddy
1195
01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:24.480
Guy character go there're separate ways, but one of them
1196
01:01:24.880 --> 01:01:26.960
and they both have a kind of freedom. But one
1197
01:01:26.960 --> 01:01:30.440
of them is free by choosing to live the way
1198
01:01:30.480 --> 01:01:35.079
he's always wanted to live and has resisted certain offers
1199
01:01:35.079 --> 01:01:37.199
and opportunities that would get in the way of that.
1200
01:01:37.599 --> 01:01:39.000
And one of them, as much as he may have
1201
01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:41.559
been free because of the power he now has, that
1202
01:01:41.639 --> 01:01:44.119
was a decision made by somebody else for him. And
1203
01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:46.880
so it's like one character is fully free in that movie.
1204
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:48.960
That's like it's like if your Buddy Guy and you
1205
01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:50.679
got your own club and you're one hundred and twelve,
1206
01:01:50.840 --> 01:01:53.639
Like I would say, that's you. You win. You cross
1207
01:01:53.719 --> 01:01:58.239
the finish slide the right way, you know. But so
1208
01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:01.960
the Irish character someone who's already been corrupted and he's
1209
01:02:01.960 --> 01:02:07.079
corrupting other people. But that doesn't make him fiendishly evil.
1210
01:02:07.159 --> 01:02:12.639
It makes him human, you know. And the choices he's
1211
01:02:12.679 --> 01:02:15.840
offering are are bad ones, but compelling ones.
1212
01:02:17.960 --> 01:02:22.679
I would, yes, it would be interesting of some of
1213
01:02:22.719 --> 01:02:25.440
the people. I'm not trying to rewrite Coogler's script. I'm
1214
01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:26.960
not saying it was bad or needed to be changed.
1215
01:02:26.960 --> 01:02:29.519
To be clear, I loved this movie, but you know.
1216
01:02:29.519 --> 01:02:32.639
I'm just it would be a very interesting sort of
1217
01:02:32.639 --> 01:02:35.159
scenario if there was someone, if there were someone who
1218
01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:40.320
freely chose that life, who walked into it eyes open,
1219
01:02:40.440 --> 01:02:44.199
saying this is really shitty. My circuface is a really
1220
01:02:44.199 --> 01:02:47.079
shitt and getting paid in script and I can barely
1221
01:02:47.079 --> 01:02:50.400
afford this cord liquor and sure fine loud joined the gun,
1222
01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:53.360
join the vampire gang. I don't think it would be
1223
01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:55.000
unrealistic for that sort of a thing to have him.
1224
01:02:55.519 --> 01:02:57.400
I want to ask you, guys before we stay on
1225
01:02:57.400 --> 01:03:03.800
too long about the religion in this and what you
1226
01:03:03.880 --> 01:03:08.000
felt about the symbolism, the impact of opening the movie
1227
01:03:08.280 --> 01:03:13.159
with Preacher Boy, who obviously sat Preacher Boy walking with
1228
01:03:13.239 --> 01:03:16.920
just the neck of his guitar, bloodied and battered, clearly
1229
01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:20.280
having survived something, walking up to the doors of this
1230
01:03:20.400 --> 01:03:24.880
white church shot flushed to the camera, banging open the
1231
01:03:24.920 --> 01:03:27.360
doors and seeing his father standing there with the choir,
1232
01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:29.360
the father played by Saul Williams.
1233
01:03:29.599 --> 01:03:35.199
Green Party millions, the legendary Saul Williams amazing performance in this.
1234
01:03:36.199 --> 01:03:39.000
Yeah so, I had the pleasure of meeting him at
1235
01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:42.039
a Green Party event just before the election. Uh with
1236
01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:46.360
Butch Ware in California, and he was extraordinary, and I
1237
01:03:46.400 --> 01:03:47.159
was watching the movie, I.
1238
01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:50.639
Was like, oh, I know him. He looks awfully familiar.
1239
01:03:51.079 --> 01:03:53.920
So he you know, he plays this Preacher character. And
1240
01:03:53.960 --> 01:03:57.679
then obviously we circle back to that scene at the end,
1241
01:03:58.199 --> 01:04:01.519
but while there's a sort of well, before I say anything,
1242
01:04:01.559 --> 01:04:03.079
what did you guys make of the role of religion.
1243
01:04:03.800 --> 01:04:08.519
So again, it's something that is presented in multiple ways
1244
01:04:08.840 --> 01:04:11.239
and up and all the way from the beginning of
1245
01:04:11.280 --> 01:04:14.559
the film to the end, because obviously at the beginning,
1246
01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:18.840
Preacher boy has had a hell of a time down
1247
01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:22.559
at the hood and nanty, and we haven't mentioned the
1248
01:04:22.760 --> 01:04:28.199
talk about blues music being satanic and people getting cut
1249
01:04:28.360 --> 01:04:31.039
and shot and stabbed at a juke joint, whether vampires
1250
01:04:31.119 --> 01:04:33.360
or there or not, was something that was really a
1251
01:04:33.400 --> 01:04:36.360
thing and people really thought about. And black people and
1252
01:04:36.400 --> 01:04:39.760
lots of older black folks thought blues was the devil's
1253
01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:43.400
music or the jazz or rock and roll. Some of
1254
01:04:43.480 --> 01:04:46.400
us had my grandmothers who felt that way, So that
1255
01:04:46.480 --> 01:04:49.599
was kind of a real feeling. And the movie seems
1256
01:04:49.599 --> 01:04:51.920
to take the position that that's kind of wrong in
1257
01:04:51.960 --> 01:04:55.800
that Christianity, this christian anity and this version of it
1258
01:04:55.840 --> 01:04:59.039
is kind of this thing imposed upon black people to
1259
01:04:59.119 --> 01:05:03.239
keep them sosiety part of colonization, and the vampire mentioned
1260
01:05:03.280 --> 01:05:06.159
it as well, but he also says, you know, those
1261
01:05:06.199 --> 01:05:09.360
words were forced on me, but they still bring me comfort.
1262
01:05:09.480 --> 01:05:11.559
And you also, I think, is it Preacher Boy who
1263
01:05:11.559 --> 01:05:14.840
says the Lord's prayer later on after he's gone to
1264
01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:19.800
the juke joint against his preacher father's wishes, and he's
1265
01:05:19.840 --> 01:05:22.000
playing the blues, and his main song is about how
1266
01:05:22.039 --> 01:05:25.199
he's been lying to his father about playing the blues,
1267
01:05:25.280 --> 01:05:28.199
and we don't really find out quite what that means
1268
01:05:28.280 --> 01:05:31.679
until the very at least not completely because at the
1269
01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:33.239
very very end of the movie, and I think a
1270
01:05:33.239 --> 01:05:36.559
lot of people missed it, we see Preacher Boy, you know,
1271
01:05:36.599 --> 01:05:40.119
we see the older him. He's chosen the blues, even
1272
01:05:40.360 --> 01:05:42.880
after all the vampires, he's chosen the blues. He's rejected
1273
01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:46.800
his father's view of Christianity. He's rejected Christianity. But the
1274
01:05:46.960 --> 01:05:50.800
very end movie, he's playing this little light of mind
1275
01:05:51.039 --> 01:05:53.000
on the guitar and that's the last thing we see
1276
01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:56.639
of him. So for whatever, you know, he got the blues.
1277
01:05:56.679 --> 01:06:01.039
That kind of spirit started with him learning to play
1278
01:06:01.079 --> 01:06:04.559
guitar in the church. So again it's like.
1279
01:06:06.000 --> 01:06:08.760
It's just a complexity. Yeah, because that is where that
1280
01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:11.519
came from. Like you scratch any of those those old
1281
01:06:11.639 --> 01:06:14.360
blues guys, and of course that's where they started. And
1282
01:06:14.400 --> 01:06:16.440
you go to I know he's not a blues guy.
1283
01:06:16.480 --> 01:06:17.840
I know he's not black. But I think the most
1284
01:06:17.920 --> 01:06:21.400
interesting well, I guess let's gonna see Cherry le Lewis
1285
01:06:21.400 --> 01:06:25.559
had a really interesting relationship with with religion and and
1286
01:06:25.960 --> 01:06:28.599
you know rock and roll music, where you know, he's
1287
01:06:28.639 --> 01:06:30.119
just convinced he was going to help, but there's there's
1288
01:06:30.119 --> 01:06:31.840
also been like I think Little Richard had that same
1289
01:06:31.880 --> 01:06:36.320
relationship too, where it's like it is just a contradiction
1290
01:06:36.400 --> 01:06:39.559
and a complexity and a reality that exists in that music.
1291
01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:43.639
And and that was such a lovely moment of I
1292
01:06:43.679 --> 01:06:45.119
thought of like, you know, here's the guy who's just
1293
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:48.639
he's he's still yeah, what was the line you just said?
1294
01:06:48.760 --> 01:06:50.800
So beautifully he's like, I know there's somebody else's words,
1295
01:06:50.800 --> 01:06:53.360
but they still can resonate with the character.
1296
01:06:53.519 --> 01:06:54.840
Yeah, they still bring me comfort.
1297
01:06:54.840 --> 01:06:58.360
They still bring me comfort. I mean, that's that's what's
1298
01:06:58.440 --> 01:07:00.559
what's going on there, And the fact that he as
1299
01:07:00.880 --> 01:07:03.360
in some cartoonish way he just turned his back entirely
1300
01:07:03.400 --> 01:07:05.719
on all that seems very very plausible, and I think
1301
01:07:05.719 --> 01:07:09.159
it's a nice and important point to make. And it
1302
01:07:09.639 --> 01:07:12.480
does get to like the complexity of the film because
1303
01:07:12.880 --> 01:07:16.159
his dad is he's not a bad character, but everything
1304
01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:19.159
he says is, you know, you're like he's wrong.
1305
01:07:19.559 --> 01:07:24.559
And positive depiction of who doo in this film perhaps
1306
01:07:24.639 --> 01:07:27.960
the first in Hollywood. You know, ever, you're like lots
1307
01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:30.400
of people who do practitioners. I've been talking about this
1308
01:07:30.719 --> 01:07:35.599
in praising how the films particted depicted their belief system.
1309
01:07:37.679 --> 01:07:40.599
Yeah, okay, so I was thinking a lot through this
1310
01:07:40.719 --> 01:07:46.159
movie about True Blood. True Blood similarly a vampire movie
1311
01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:50.360
set in the American South, Oh yes, a kind of
1312
01:07:50.440 --> 01:07:57.639
voodoo practitioner character and tapping into the sort of mysticism
1313
01:07:57.679 --> 01:08:00.199
of that part of the world, the sort of beloved
1314
01:08:00.880 --> 01:08:04.000
go spiritual tradition of that type of the part of
1315
01:08:04.039 --> 01:08:07.480
the world, in a distinctly African American tradition as well
1316
01:08:08.039 --> 01:08:12.400
alongside this very sort of European vampire tradition made for
1317
01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:16.439
a very rich sort of visual and cultural product in
1318
01:08:16.479 --> 01:08:18.840
True Blood. I you know, I enjoyed it, and that
1319
01:08:19.039 --> 01:08:21.560
seemed to have maybe not directly but it's hard not
1320
01:08:21.640 --> 01:08:24.159
to read that as part of you know, you're talking
1321
01:08:24.159 --> 01:08:27.119
about the positive depiction of voodoo, and then in movies
1322
01:08:27.159 --> 01:08:29.479
like this and shows like that, it's like, yeah, it's
1323
01:08:29.479 --> 01:08:31.960
the person who is familiar with sort of this dark
1324
01:08:32.079 --> 01:08:36.279
underworld who's able to identify what it is quickly get
1325
01:08:36.319 --> 01:08:39.439
past the cognitive dissonance of oh no, it's a vampire.
1326
01:08:39.039 --> 01:08:39.840
That gets you know white.
1327
01:08:41.600 --> 01:08:43.279
Let me pause you right there, just to be clear.
1328
01:08:43.359 --> 01:08:46.520
The who do practitioners were not just praising the positivity,
1329
01:08:46.560 --> 01:08:50.479
but the accuracy and their realis so before we compare
1330
01:08:50.520 --> 01:08:54.039
it whatever's going on in True Blood, you know, Okay,
1331
01:08:54.119 --> 01:08:56.960
So I don't know how accurate any of that is
1332
01:08:57.000 --> 01:08:59.199
the actual world, believe.
1333
01:08:59.319 --> 01:08:59.960
I don't.
1334
01:09:00.039 --> 01:09:01.439
Yes, sure, I wasn't. I wasn't speaking to that, but
1335
01:09:01.520 --> 01:09:03.920
just the positive portrayal of it. It was our protagonist
1336
01:09:03.920 --> 01:09:08.039
in True Blood that engaged in that sort of a thing.
1337
01:09:09.640 --> 01:09:10.359
But back to the.
1338
01:09:10.800 --> 01:09:16.039
Christianity of it all, I think Leslie, you said that
1339
01:09:16.079 --> 01:09:19.720
the the The Preacher was wrong. The Preacher was ultimately
1340
01:09:19.720 --> 01:09:23.880
wrong about the idea that, like The Blues, was sent.
1341
01:09:24.239 --> 01:09:27.000
I feel like the move the movie, I feel like
1342
01:09:27.079 --> 01:09:29.840
the movie wants. I mean, I feel like the movie
1343
01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:32.119
wants us to think that he's wrong to tell his
1344
01:09:32.199 --> 01:09:33.279
son not the play.
1345
01:09:34.079 --> 01:09:37.760
But it's tough because I'm obviously like young people should
1346
01:09:37.760 --> 01:09:39.520
be able to do what they want. Screw your dad,
1347
01:09:39.560 --> 01:09:42.319
screw already, Like I that's the posture we all come
1348
01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:45.560
into movies with. But then low key the guy sings
1349
01:09:45.560 --> 01:09:47.479
the blues and he calls the devil.
1350
01:09:49.840 --> 01:09:54.279
That predicted fully happened. Like he starts singing, we see.
1351
01:09:54.199 --> 01:09:56.359
Remnick somewhere in the field, look in this look in
1352
01:09:56.439 --> 01:09:59.720
the sky like he just saw a bat signal and
1353
01:09:59.800 --> 01:10:01.680
he and he comes running a little kill the mall
1354
01:10:02.199 --> 01:10:05.920
in the sentd in. I don't think there's an about who.
1355
01:10:05.760 --> 01:10:08.199
The sinners are. They all sinners, they in their senten
1356
01:10:09.239 --> 01:10:10.720
And we have to.
1357
01:10:10.680 --> 01:10:13.920
Be clear, these are not the respectable black folks around
1358
01:10:14.039 --> 01:10:18.000
town that are in this juke joint. These are like
1359
01:10:18.079 --> 01:10:21.279
the one woman who's just there to cheat on her husband,
1360
01:10:21.319 --> 01:10:23.159
like that's why she's out at the joint.
1361
01:10:23.920 --> 01:10:25.560
You feel like they're all at that club that Delroy
1362
01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:29.359
Lindo quits right to come play there. Oh my god,
1363
01:10:29.359 --> 01:10:31.039
I love that. I gotta think about it, but I
1364
01:10:31.039 --> 01:10:32.840
love that thing where like you're watching there's just like
1365
01:10:32.880 --> 01:10:35.840
one tiny note that just puts the air out of
1366
01:10:35.840 --> 01:10:38.560
the whole thing, and you're like, oh, we gotta go
1367
01:10:38.600 --> 01:10:42.560
back to the drawing Pard. I mean, you're kind of right, but.
1368
01:10:44.119 --> 01:10:46.000
You know, and and that's not a criticism, by the way.
1369
01:10:46.039 --> 01:10:48.159
So the one that I have to get in here
1370
01:10:48.319 --> 01:10:50.119
is how much I was thinking about The Color Purple
1371
01:10:50.159 --> 01:10:53.159
through this entire film. Listeners to this podcast will know
1372
01:10:53.159 --> 01:10:55.319
that The Color Purple is my favorite movie. It is
1373
01:10:55.359 --> 01:10:57.279
also set in the jim Crow South.
1374
01:10:57.680 --> 01:10:57.840
Uh.
1375
01:10:58.399 --> 01:11:02.760
Visually, it is hard to believe that there are not
1376
01:11:03.520 --> 01:11:08.000
direct references frankly to the movie. There's so many parallels. Specifically,
1377
01:11:08.079 --> 01:11:12.039
this church scene, so this this big white clapboard church
1378
01:11:12.560 --> 01:11:16.680
tucked in the woods becomes the scene of one of
1379
01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:19.279
the most sort of I believe, beautiful and impactful scenes
1380
01:11:19.279 --> 01:11:22.319
for the movie The Color Purple, where our center character,
1381
01:11:22.520 --> 01:11:28.039
who is a juke joint jazz blues singer and Miss
1382
01:11:28.159 --> 01:11:31.439
chug Avery is the daughter of a preacher and they're
1383
01:11:31.560 --> 01:11:35.479
estranged because of her lifestyle, and you know, towards the
1384
01:11:35.560 --> 01:11:37.199
end of the movie they finally are able to have
1385
01:11:37.239 --> 01:11:41.520
a kind of a reconciliation where she leads the patrons
1386
01:11:41.560 --> 01:11:45.319
of the juke joint, back out through this sort of swamp,
1387
01:11:45.840 --> 01:11:48.560
through a dirt road up to the doors of the church,
1388
01:11:48.840 --> 01:11:51.600
singing along with God is trying to tell me something
1389
01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:54.399
which is being sung by the choir inside. Burst open
1390
01:11:54.439 --> 01:11:57.640
those double doors in a like shot for shot matchup
1391
01:11:57.640 --> 01:11:59.920
way that I've seen some people, you know, do some
1392
01:12:00.119 --> 01:12:02.920
by side online already in tiktoks or whatever, and then
1393
01:12:03.000 --> 01:12:07.520
walk up to her father and say, look, daddy, sinners
1394
01:12:07.600 --> 01:12:08.520
have song too.
1395
01:12:09.479 --> 01:12:10.600
Sinners have song too.
1396
01:12:10.760 --> 01:12:13.760
Now we're talking of a movie called Sinners that has
1397
01:12:13.880 --> 01:12:17.119
music playing this enormous role in which a bunch of
1398
01:12:17.119 --> 01:12:20.079
sinners and a juke joint have song, and we have
1399
01:12:20.279 --> 01:12:22.880
these ambivalent feelings about whether or not they are still
1400
01:12:22.960 --> 01:12:24.960
you know, the movie seems to be saying, yes, they're sinners,
1401
01:12:24.960 --> 01:12:27.439
but they're still worthy. Their lives were valuable and we
1402
01:12:27.439 --> 01:12:29.880
were sad when they died. And even if the preacher
1403
01:12:29.920 --> 01:12:32.520
is right about some things, the boy was also right
1404
01:12:32.560 --> 01:12:34.279
to pursue his ambition.
1405
01:12:35.000 --> 01:12:36.960
And it strikes me as very odd.
1406
01:12:37.000 --> 01:12:41.760
But I haven't seen more people talking about this relationship
1407
01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:42.720
between these two films.
1408
01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:44.640
Well. I think also because it's such a kind of
1409
01:12:44.840 --> 01:12:48.800
iconic and mythic relationship. I mean, the actual history and
1410
01:12:48.920 --> 01:12:51.600
narrative are full of sort of examples of like the
1411
01:12:51.640 --> 01:12:55.319
preacher daddy and the kid who's turning their back on
1412
01:12:55.399 --> 01:12:58.119
them to go pursue something that the father perceives to
1413
01:12:58.159 --> 01:13:01.119
be satanic. It's like, I mean, color purple is one,
1414
01:13:01.600 --> 01:13:03.800
but there's certainly plenty of others. So I I don't know.
1415
01:13:03.880 --> 01:13:06.840
I mean, not just I'm a son of the preacher man.
1416
01:13:06.920 --> 01:13:09.800
It's a shot for like the churches could be shot
1417
01:13:09.840 --> 01:13:10.640
on the same set.
1418
01:13:11.720 --> 01:13:13.199
I haven't seen color purple years.
1419
01:13:13.239 --> 01:13:17.840
Yeah, Brie, we are losing recipes. As they say, this
1420
01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:22.039
generation does not know Generation zombie does not know what
1421
01:13:22.119 --> 01:13:25.600
the color purple is. They don't know blade. They were
1422
01:13:25.640 --> 01:13:29.800
asking what other black vampires are there, Brie. They don't
1423
01:13:29.840 --> 01:13:33.199
know vampire in Brooklyn. They don't know a damn thing
1424
01:13:33.640 --> 01:13:39.319
about black eula. So that's why people aren't making that reference.
1425
01:13:39.319 --> 01:13:42.760
I don't even see people talking about like the obvious.
1426
01:13:42.840 --> 01:13:45.039
I thought the geeks would go wild about the thing,
1427
01:13:45.359 --> 01:13:49.680
sing the thing homage where they test for who's a
1428
01:13:49.760 --> 01:13:52.680
vampire with the garlic, which is just a straight you know,
1429
01:13:53.159 --> 01:13:56.720
homage to John Carpenter, But not I haven't. I don't know.
1430
01:13:56.760 --> 01:13:59.079
Maybe some people are mentioned. I'm sure some horror Bus,
1431
01:13:59.159 --> 01:14:01.119
but I don't see a lot of people talking about it,
1432
01:14:01.159 --> 01:14:03.000
and I feel like that kind of is to the
1433
01:14:03.039 --> 01:14:07.920
benefit of the movie. Like, look, we've had twenty years
1434
01:14:07.960 --> 01:14:12.079
almost of Marvel movies in between. Ryan Coogler is obviously
1435
01:14:12.119 --> 01:14:15.720
a child of the prior, you know, generation of films,
1436
01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:18.680
and he can bring all these references and they feel
1437
01:14:18.680 --> 01:14:20.760
fresh and new, and that's part of the reason why
1438
01:14:20.760 --> 01:14:24.119
people respond to it so much. We also haven't talked
1439
01:14:24.119 --> 01:14:26.840
about the black various black other black black movie. I
1440
01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:29.800
guess Color Purple is a black movie, even though it's
1441
01:14:29.840 --> 01:14:33.960
directed by Steven Spielberg. But the black movies that inspired
1442
01:14:34.239 --> 01:14:36.239
this film we have from the nineties that we haven't
1443
01:14:36.239 --> 01:14:38.359
really you know, talked about. A lot of people haven't
1444
01:14:38.359 --> 01:14:41.000
really talked about. It's just been kind of a surface
1445
01:14:41.600 --> 01:14:44.840
level so far. I've seen discussion because people just don't
1446
01:14:45.039 --> 01:14:48.000
reference film like they used to. They've been spending fifteen
1447
01:14:48.079 --> 01:14:52.920
years back referencing the MCU with itself, so people don't
1448
01:14:53.359 --> 01:14:56.359
just don't talk about film as a lineage. Theistic was
1449
01:14:56.399 --> 01:14:58.000
broken a point.
1450
01:14:58.119 --> 01:15:00.560
Something that just like I just loved about the film throughout,
1451
01:15:00.640 --> 01:15:02.760
and I've gotten this from Assums before, but never so
1452
01:15:02.920 --> 01:15:05.359
powerfully is Yeah, as you say, I mean, I think,
1453
01:15:05.359 --> 01:15:07.479
what is he like? He's under forty, right, the son
1454
01:15:07.520 --> 01:15:12.239
of a bitch? Yeah, he's like, how dare you he?
1455
01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:14.319
He is a And And you know, I do a
1456
01:15:14.359 --> 01:15:17.199
show where we talk to filmmakers about the movies that
1457
01:15:17.279 --> 01:15:20.039
have literally you know, made them and inspired them, and
1458
01:15:20.520 --> 01:15:22.880
you know, sometimes it gets pretty frustrated because like, people
1459
01:15:22.880 --> 01:15:24.760
don't go far back. And this is a guy who
1460
01:15:24.800 --> 01:15:27.920
loves movies, and he loves movies that predate his existence.
1461
01:15:28.479 --> 01:15:30.399
And one of the things I loved Man not just
1462
01:15:30.600 --> 01:15:33.319
was it shot on film, but it just it just
1463
01:15:33.520 --> 01:15:37.760
reveled in that it's just a rich, beautiful, lustrous film.
1464
01:15:38.279 --> 01:15:39.800
Movie that looks like a movie.
1465
01:15:40.039 --> 01:15:42.520
Imagine, Yeah, it looks like it looks the way there's
1466
01:15:42.640 --> 01:15:44.600
just still something in me when I throw something on
1467
01:15:44.640 --> 01:15:46.399
even watching it in like you know, Blue Ear four K,
1468
01:15:46.520 --> 01:15:49.159
where it's like from the seventies or the late sixties
1469
01:15:49.239 --> 01:15:50.800
or even the parts of the early as where it's
1470
01:15:50.800 --> 01:15:53.319
just like, oh, there's something about the film texture that
1471
01:15:53.479 --> 01:15:56.720
just makes me go, oh, I'm home. And this had that,
1472
01:15:57.199 --> 01:15:58.920
and I felt like I was sitting in a movie
1473
01:15:58.960 --> 01:16:01.439
theater for you know two, where was in some change
1474
01:16:02.119 --> 01:16:04.520
in which when I stepped outside of that movie theater,
1475
01:16:04.640 --> 01:16:07.479
I would be in a world where this would be
1476
01:16:07.800 --> 01:16:11.239
certainly the best movie this month of a whole bunch
1477
01:16:11.279 --> 01:16:13.560
of other movies, at least two or three of which
1478
01:16:13.640 --> 01:16:16.279
would have been really fucking good too. And it's just like,
1479
01:16:16.319 --> 01:16:17.840
it was like, Oh, I'm living in that world again.
1480
01:16:18.039 --> 01:16:21.439
He loves movies, and he's doing them right. He's telling
1481
01:16:21.479 --> 01:16:24.960
personal stories, he's using all the tools that he has
1482
01:16:25.039 --> 01:16:28.279
learned in his life. He is standing on the shoulders
1483
01:16:28.279 --> 01:16:29.920
of the people who have come before him and building
1484
01:16:29.920 --> 01:16:33.600
on top of that. And it's like, and he's teaching
1485
01:16:33.640 --> 01:16:35.800
people who, as you say, don't go you know, for
1486
01:16:35.840 --> 01:16:38.960
whom the color purple is, you know, might as well
1487
01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:43.000
be the great train robbery, teaching them how to love
1488
01:16:43.039 --> 01:16:48.720
film as well. And just I'm I love this movie.
1489
01:16:48.920 --> 01:16:52.600
I'm well, I think we're all in agreement about that.
1490
01:16:52.640 --> 01:16:55.680
The last point that I, if you'll indulge me, I
1491
01:16:55.680 --> 01:16:57.520
wanted you to weigh in on, maybe Josh, you can
1492
01:16:57.520 --> 01:17:00.239
take the lead on this is the sort of weird
1493
01:17:01.279 --> 01:17:06.520
backlash to the success of the film that was spear
1494
01:17:06.600 --> 01:17:10.279
pointed by this variety magazine article that in the wake
1495
01:17:10.399 --> 01:17:13.399
of this sort of record setting weekend for an R
1496
01:17:13.479 --> 01:17:19.279
rated film, an original R rated film, characterized the movie
1497
01:17:19.439 --> 01:17:24.039
as having a quote question mark about profitability, sort of
1498
01:17:24.800 --> 01:17:26.880
framing it in this odd way to suggest that it
1499
01:17:26.960 --> 01:17:30.760
wasn't really successful when it was Yeah, what did you
1500
01:17:30.800 --> 01:17:33.720
make of this, Josh.
1501
01:17:32.800 --> 01:17:37.039
I honestly don't know. I mean, I I want to
1502
01:17:37.039 --> 01:17:38.800
say it's carefully because there's an audience here that that
1503
01:17:39.279 --> 01:17:41.279
is going to just make assumptions, you know, you know me,
1504
01:17:43.039 --> 01:17:46.159
I try not to leap immediately to just a wealther racist,
1505
01:17:46.319 --> 01:17:51.199
because of course they are. But I'm like, it's something
1506
01:17:51.199 --> 01:17:52.600
else going on there.
1507
01:17:52.840 --> 01:17:55.960
You know, this variety has been the site of a
1508
01:17:56.000 --> 01:17:59.880
lot of weird political battles. The way they framed God's
1509
01:18:00.079 --> 01:18:03.199
related issues with Rachel Ziegler and the snow white of
1510
01:18:03.199 --> 01:18:06.720
it all and Galgado, Yeah.
1511
01:18:06.199 --> 01:18:08.279
Yeah, there's like something there. And then you also wonder,
1512
01:18:08.359 --> 01:18:10.279
like there's so many things now, there's so many, there's
1513
01:18:10.279 --> 01:18:14.399
so many you know, the battles going on at some
1514
01:18:14.560 --> 01:18:17.520
studio is is you know, there's somebody working for one
1515
01:18:17.600 --> 01:18:20.039
studio that's upset at the way that this you know,
1516
01:18:20.119 --> 01:18:22.439
that's important that we make sure that this film from
1517
01:18:22.439 --> 01:18:24.600
this studio doesn't look like the big hit that it is,
1518
01:18:24.680 --> 01:18:26.840
and are you working for them? There's so many different
1519
01:18:26.880 --> 01:18:29.800
things going on there. But the thing is it was
1520
01:18:29.880 --> 01:18:33.000
so if you're going to go after a film like that,
1521
01:18:33.119 --> 01:18:35.039
you need to be better at it than they did
1522
01:18:35.279 --> 01:18:38.039
because it just read racist, you know. Yeah.
1523
01:18:38.079 --> 01:18:39.920
Yeah, And all these people came out of the woodwork
1524
01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:43.399
to defend Ryan Coogler, right, Ben ben Stiller, who doesn't
1525
01:18:43.439 --> 01:18:46.119
really post like that, yeah, came out and posted in
1526
01:18:46.119 --> 01:18:48.479
what universe does a sixty million dollar opening for an
1527
01:18:48.520 --> 01:18:50.520
original studio movie warrant this headline?
1528
01:18:51.000 --> 01:18:53.159
Yeah, and again I will tell you, like, these are
1529
01:18:53.159 --> 01:18:56.039
people who love movies like Ben stillar Olibi is a
1530
01:18:56.119 --> 01:18:59.279
movie guy, and you come out of a movie like Sinners,
1531
01:18:59.840 --> 01:19:02.880
you know, just if you're just if you're one of us,
1532
01:19:02.920 --> 01:19:05.680
if you're one of that tribe, and you're just like tingling,
1533
01:19:06.119 --> 01:19:07.960
and then you see it become this massive hit and
1534
01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:09.880
it's like this is so good. And then you see
1535
01:19:09.920 --> 01:19:12.039
something like that, I can see big Bedstill are going, yeah,
1536
01:19:12.039 --> 01:19:13.960
I need to step into this, like people just being
1537
01:19:14.039 --> 01:19:17.880
like this is ridiculous, this is absolutely like insane. And
1538
01:19:18.199 --> 01:19:20.159
then yeah, because he had this amazing deal that he
1539
01:19:20.199 --> 01:19:22.880
had worked out for himself by being one of the
1540
01:19:22.920 --> 01:19:26.319
most successful filmmakers on the planet, where you know, he
1541
01:19:26.359 --> 01:19:27.880
gets a big chunk of the change of it and
1542
01:19:27.920 --> 01:19:29.840
he will get it back in I think twenty five years.
1543
01:19:30.239 --> 01:19:32.800
It's not a unique deal, but it is a rare one.
1544
01:19:33.119 --> 01:19:34.600
And there all these people going, well, what did he
1545
01:19:34.680 --> 01:19:36.960
do to get that? And that that is that's a
1546
01:19:36.960 --> 01:19:39.399
combination of racism and agism where people are just like,
1547
01:19:39.760 --> 01:19:41.760
you know, they think of like directors under sixty as
1548
01:19:41.800 --> 01:19:43.800
being sort of not worthy. They're all just kids. They
1549
01:19:43.840 --> 01:19:46.159
just make Marvel Money's made Marvel movies too, you know,
1550
01:19:46.159 --> 01:19:50.319
it's a direct Yeah, yeah, you know how dairy and
1551
01:19:51.479 --> 01:19:54.319
uh yeah, it's just been wild to watch that. I
1552
01:19:54.840 --> 01:19:57.800
don't have one simple answer, but I think it's it's
1553
01:19:57.800 --> 01:20:00.800
there's certainly racism. There's probably some kind of like internet
1554
01:20:00.840 --> 01:20:03.359
and studio war that we don't know about going on.
1555
01:20:04.000 --> 01:20:05.840
And there is also some sort of like there's certainly
1556
01:20:05.960 --> 01:20:08.720
jealousy in a way of like, you know, somehow we're
1557
01:20:08.760 --> 01:20:12.039
okay with older filmmakers being able to do stuff like this,
1558
01:20:12.159 --> 01:20:14.520
but here's this young guy. And also I think there
1559
01:20:14.560 --> 01:20:18.000
is a there is a certain way that like, you know,
1560
01:20:18.079 --> 01:20:21.760
he and Michael Jordan have have come up with. I
1561
01:20:21.800 --> 01:20:23.960
can't think of any they're not. They're not Scarcese and
1562
01:20:24.000 --> 01:20:27.039
de Niro, who work together a lot, they've really like
1563
01:20:27.199 --> 01:20:29.600
thrown in together and be like, the two of us
1564
01:20:29.960 --> 01:20:32.000
are going to make our way in this world in
1565
01:20:32.039 --> 01:20:34.079
a way that hasn't really been done before. We are
1566
01:20:34.079 --> 01:20:37.760
going to stand together. And and they've done things just
1567
01:20:38.600 --> 01:20:41.079
you know, the whole the whole Creed thing was amazing.
1568
01:20:41.119 --> 01:20:43.640
The idea of getting like, if you can walk into
1569
01:20:43.640 --> 01:20:46.520
a room and get Sylvester Stallone to agree to take
1570
01:20:46.600 --> 01:20:49.720
his most iconic character and make him a supporting character,
1571
01:20:51.239 --> 01:20:54.279
you have got powers of persuasion. I can't even imagine,
1572
01:20:54.720 --> 01:20:56.359
you know, So there is there is. I think there's
1573
01:20:56.399 --> 01:20:59.279
sort of like resentment and and you know people are
1574
01:20:59.279 --> 01:21:01.800
waiting for him to burn because they're always doing that.
1575
01:21:01.960 --> 01:21:03.800
And you know, by the way, he will make a
1576
01:21:03.840 --> 01:21:06.840
movie someday that doesn't work and then you'll see these
1577
01:21:06.840 --> 01:21:09.560
people come out. Then you'll really see them come out
1578
01:21:09.600 --> 01:21:12.239
after him. But he'll also be okay, and he'll make
1579
01:21:12.239 --> 01:21:14.159
a movie that's even better than the last one. You know,
1580
01:21:14.239 --> 01:21:17.000
But yeah, it's it's weird. It is really weird. There's
1581
01:21:17.000 --> 01:21:20.039
a lot of stuff going on there, but it's just
1582
01:21:20.039 --> 01:21:21.720
the fact that it was so naked and obvious what's
1583
01:21:21.800 --> 01:21:22.760
kind of funny to me.
1584
01:21:23.479 --> 01:21:26.520
Yeah, we talked a lot on Struggle session about variety
1585
01:21:26.680 --> 01:21:30.199
and how like these sources, whether they're work for the
1586
01:21:30.199 --> 01:21:32.960
same studio and they're upset that they didn't get this deal,
1587
01:21:33.039 --> 01:21:35.079
or they worked for a different studio and they want
1588
01:21:35.079 --> 01:21:38.159
to give someone else this deal. There's all sorts of people,
1589
01:21:38.439 --> 01:21:41.199
and it really comes down to the outlets because there's
1590
01:21:41.239 --> 01:21:43.640
so many different ways you can cover all these stories,
1591
01:21:43.680 --> 01:21:47.039
and they chose to cover it in that way, which
1592
01:21:47.199 --> 01:21:49.640
you know does come across obviously as a racist. But
1593
01:21:50.000 --> 01:21:52.560
there's a lot of factors as well. But I do
1594
01:21:52.680 --> 01:21:56.920
want to mention one before we get off, one feat
1595
01:21:57.079 --> 01:21:59.880
that Centers was able to accomplish. It's one of the
1596
01:22:00.199 --> 01:22:03.880
handful of movies featuring black men and sex scenes to
1597
01:22:04.000 --> 01:22:07.079
make over one hundred million dollars, which is kind of
1598
01:22:07.079 --> 01:22:10.319
an interesting thing. Even though there's not nudity in the
1599
01:22:10.399 --> 01:22:14.920
sex in the news scenes, this is something that yes, yes,
1600
01:22:14.920 --> 01:22:15.920
he mentioned that, Yes.
1601
01:22:16.359 --> 01:22:18.479
That's it. Yeah, he's got a lot that's to red
1602
01:22:18.520 --> 01:22:20.159
His husband he's.
1603
01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:22.039
An amazing writer. Please look him up and read them
1604
01:22:22.039 --> 01:22:23.119
if you like Sinners as well.
1605
01:22:23.199 --> 01:22:25.439
But there's a but there. I feel like that's been
1606
01:22:25.479 --> 01:22:28.840
broken by now. There have been a lot of movies
1607
01:22:28.840 --> 01:22:32.239
now would like male black male sexuality. I mean a lot,
1608
01:22:32.399 --> 01:22:34.840
you know, three maybe but that have done that have
1609
01:22:34.840 --> 01:22:36.600
done really well. But yeah, he had a longstanding theory
1610
01:22:36.640 --> 01:22:39.960
that like, there's never been a movie which black characters
1611
01:22:39.960 --> 01:22:42.399
actually have sex that has made over one hundred million dollars.
1612
01:22:43.079 --> 01:22:46.199
Yeah, few and forbringting strangely enough, but this is a
1613
01:22:46.279 --> 01:22:49.199
movie and it was kind of interesting to see because like, yeah,
1614
01:22:49.239 --> 01:22:52.039
this is a big screen movie and and also movies
1615
01:22:52.079 --> 01:22:54.920
now don't have a lot of sexism, sex and them period,
1616
01:22:55.039 --> 01:22:57.279
you know. So that was a different thing that this
1617
01:22:57.520 --> 01:23:01.560
Sinner's brawled. It was sexy. It had sex scenes, multiple ones.
1618
01:23:01.520 --> 01:23:03.239
And specific kinds of sex.
1619
01:23:03.880 --> 01:23:11.880
Yes, yeah, I heard they were almost gonna call it eaters.
1620
01:23:12.199 --> 01:23:16.880
Well look, Leslie, Uh if.
1621
01:23:16.760 --> 01:23:20.000
People haven't listened, I really enjoyed your the Struggle Session
1622
01:23:20.079 --> 01:23:23.560
episode about Uh I was with Taylor Lorenz where you
1623
01:23:23.600 --> 01:23:24.840
talked about the Rachel.
1624
01:23:24.640 --> 01:23:27.439
Ziegler Yes situation.
1625
01:23:28.000 --> 01:23:30.520
Yes, I think I tweeted it out when I listened
1626
01:23:30.520 --> 01:23:32.319
to it, but strong recommend if you haven't already listened
1627
01:23:32.319 --> 01:23:34.880
to that episode of Struggle Session. I really appreciate both
1628
01:23:34.880 --> 01:23:39.680
of you sticking with me while I pressed some of
1629
01:23:40.800 --> 01:23:44.960
It's hard to press on potential flaws or ambiguities or
1630
01:23:45.359 --> 01:23:47.720
inconsistencies in a movie that we all love so much,
1631
01:23:47.800 --> 01:23:50.640
but you guys were game, and I appreciate your willingness
1632
01:23:50.760 --> 01:23:55.720
to do so. Josh, where can people find more of you?
1633
01:23:55.720 --> 01:23:58.119
Your podcasts and your work on the internet and beyond.
1634
01:23:58.640 --> 01:24:00.439
Yeah, I mean, the main thing is my My main
1635
01:24:00.439 --> 01:24:02.039
podcast is the movies that made me. That I do
1636
01:24:02.119 --> 01:24:06.319
the Joe Dante where we have guests on usually filmmakers,
1637
01:24:06.319 --> 01:24:09.560
but comedians, musicians, all kinds of folks and talking to
1638
01:24:09.560 --> 01:24:11.720
them not about their work but the movies that have
1639
01:24:11.800 --> 01:24:15.399
inspired them. And then once a month with your old
1640
01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:18.359
friend Trevor, I do a new show called The White Canon,
1641
01:24:18.399 --> 01:24:21.359
where we are talking about movies that are essentially beloved
1642
01:24:21.359 --> 01:24:26.439
by the sort of mainstream white film culture and kind
1643
01:24:26.479 --> 01:24:30.000
of either unknown or not particularly cared about by by
1644
01:24:29.840 --> 01:24:33.119
by other audiences outside of white people. And that's been really,
1645
01:24:33.119 --> 01:24:36.800
really fun. And yeah, I would I would, you know,
1646
01:24:36.920 --> 01:24:38.840
come on, come on board. Listen to both of them.
1647
01:24:39.680 --> 01:24:42.479
Certain person I'm looking at has recorded an episode of
1648
01:24:42.520 --> 01:24:44.239
that one which will be coming out a little bit.
1649
01:24:44.319 --> 01:24:47.159
But yeah, and every now and then we switch and
1650
01:24:47.199 --> 01:24:50.039
we do Black Kid. And I watched a movie that
1651
01:24:50.079 --> 01:24:52.560
I had never seen before, and that was what what
1652
01:24:53.279 --> 01:24:55.800
with Well, you'll have to you'll have to wait. Oh well,
1653
01:24:56.079 --> 01:25:00.000
i'll tell you when we're done. But yeah, it's it's
1654
01:25:00.119 --> 01:25:02.439
a lot of fun and and because of the nature
1655
01:25:02.439 --> 01:25:04.000
of the thing, like, we were never going to get
1656
01:25:04.039 --> 01:25:06.640
to Sinners. So I'm so glad to be able to
1657
01:25:06.680 --> 01:25:08.439
come on here and do that with you guys.
1658
01:25:08.800 --> 01:25:13.000
I'm so glad you were able to Unlike Trevor, who
1659
01:25:13.600 --> 01:25:15.920
did not get the memo on the group chat that
1660
01:25:15.960 --> 01:25:19.680
he needed to watch this movie sooner rather than later. Wait, no,
1661
01:25:20.960 --> 01:25:23.800
I have no idea, like just for not to get spoiled.
1662
01:25:23.800 --> 01:25:26.800
Sorry obviously we did all spoilers, but sorry, I couldn't.
1663
01:25:26.840 --> 01:25:29.039
I cannot bear, I cannot be. I'm on I'm on
1664
01:25:29.079 --> 01:25:31.880
Twitter too much to not be.
1665
01:25:33.439 --> 01:25:33.840
Your mother.
1666
01:25:33.880 --> 01:25:36.119
And I been talking and look, y'all know you just
1667
01:25:36.119 --> 01:25:38.479
go down to the barbershop. They got it already. You've
1668
01:25:38.600 --> 01:25:39.760
got to go to the theater.
1669
01:25:40.319 --> 01:25:41.800
Don't worry about it all right.
1670
01:25:42.439 --> 01:25:44.600
Well, lessons is also on the Struggle Session feeds. I
1671
01:25:44.640 --> 01:25:46.159
don't know that you need to plug it per se,
1672
01:25:46.239 --> 01:25:47.680
but do you want to say anything before we wrap?
1673
01:25:47.800 --> 01:25:47.960
Yes?
1674
01:25:47.960 --> 01:25:51.079
Still, the Bad Faith listeners, please check us out patreon
1675
01:25:51.119 --> 01:25:54.840
dot com slash Struggle Session. We got video episodes as well,
1676
01:25:54.880 --> 01:25:58.840
inspired by Breeze, so if you like, you know, seeing
1677
01:25:58.880 --> 01:26:02.600
our faces talking beautiful faces, you'll get to see it.
1678
01:26:03.359 --> 01:26:04.960
Patrion dot com Slae Stargo Session.
1679
01:26:05.800 --> 01:26:08.439
All right, and to all of you Bad Faith listeners,
1680
01:26:08.680 --> 01:26:11.399
thanks for tuning in. You know you can get extra
1681
01:26:11.439 --> 01:26:14.199
episodes of Bad Faith podcasts at patroon dot com slash
1682
01:26:14.199 --> 01:26:17.319
Bad Faith Podcast every week on Mondays and additional to
1683
01:26:17.439 --> 01:26:20.920
the free Thursday episode that comes out wherever you get
1684
01:26:20.920 --> 01:26:23.840
your podcast, you can watch full video on bad to
1685
01:26:23.920 --> 01:26:26.840
faith YouTube, and the premium episodes you can get a
1686
01:26:27.319 --> 01:26:30.000
usually twenty to thirty minute clip of the full episode
1687
01:26:30.079 --> 01:26:32.760
of even the premium episodes over on bad Faith YouTube,
1688
01:26:33.319 --> 01:26:35.880
so don't forget to subscribe there and hit the little
1689
01:26:35.880 --> 01:26:38.520
notification icon or whatever so you don't miss those when
1690
01:26:38.560 --> 01:26:42.279
they drop. Thanks for tuning in and as always, keep
1691
01:26:42.319 --> 01:26:42.720
the faith.
1692
01:26:44.479 --> 01:26:49.079
Thanks