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Welcome to Start with Questions, the podcast where we explore bold ideas shaping the future of learning.
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I'm your host, Christy Lundstrom, CEO of Mount Vernon Ventures and head of school at the Mount Vernon School in Atlanta, as well as Mount Vernon School Online.
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Today's conversation goes right to the heart of this show's name, Start with Questions, because we're going to spend the next half hour discussing with research-informed practices and the experts guiding the work.
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The question is the creative act, and the answer we're looking for is what comes next.
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I'm joined by Dr.
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Zarana Pringle, senior research scientist at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and author of the Creative Choice: The Science of Making Decisions to Turn Ideas into Action.
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Her work sits at the intersection of creativity, emotion, and what it actually takes to move an idea from a spark into something real in the world.
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And I'm joined by Jared Colley, our chief innovation officer and editor and senior consultant at Mount Vernon Ventures.
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Jared has been publishing a research series on learning in the age of agentic AI.
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And his latest piece leans directly on Dr.
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Pringle's work.
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So we're going to let them talk to each other.
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What excites me most is that both of these bodies of work, grounded in research, what are the stories telling us?
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What is the data pointing to?
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Zarana, let's start with you.
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Tell us about your journey and what led you to write the book, The Creativity Choice.
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Thank you, first of all, for having me and uh having this conversation.
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Where I started is with a question, right?
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Because I have noticed that um we've all been in brainstorming rooms.
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Ideas come, they come quickly.
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There are a lot of them, but many fewer get developed.
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And I wanted to know why.
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I love that.
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And how did you actually decide to write a book?
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Why stay, why go from research into actually producing a book?
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This is our summary.
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So at our school, we're we are championing your work.
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I will get to write a book because I have realized that there are lots of misconceptions about creativity out there in our culture.
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And I thought, well, if you are frustrated about something, do something about it.
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And I wanted to do something about it.
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And one way was to write a book.
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Thank you.
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And Jared, give us a quick picture also of what Ventures is focused on right now.
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Sure.
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Thank you, Christy, for having me on the podcast.
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And thank you, Dr.
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Pringle, for being here with us today.
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Um, welcome to Start with Questions.
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Uh I am uh over at our RD Consultancy, which is MV Ventures, and we're working on a lot of stuff right now.
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We have an RD report that we put out annually, and this one will be published next month.
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And it is a continuation of some of these articles that we've been publishing, and that it's going to be focusing on what are the human skill shifts that are taking place in the workplace and therefore also impacting our schools and organizations for learning.
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Um, what are those human skills that are shifting in the context of agentic AI?
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And so we're going to be putting out a report about that that is not so much technology-centered, but really human-centered in thinking about what are the skills, the dispositions, and competencies that both we want to be fostering and cultivating in our K-12 learning environments so that we can be successful entry-level workers and successful human beings and thrive in a world with intelligent machines, knowing that it's disrupting so many areas of our lives and how we work, live, and play.
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And so also at uh Envy Ventures, we have another report from last year that's gotten a lot of traction called Perpetual Learning.
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And we have a new app that we've developed that schools can access on our website.
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And they can kind of do a self-audit or um a self-assessment of how they're doing with certain cultures of practice that help our organizations and our individuals in that organization improve in their practice.
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And so that's gotten a lot of traction to you.
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And of course, we're staying very busy with different consulting clients as well.
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Yeah, let's dive in and talk a little bit about the culture you're describing.
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Zarana, the title of the book is Doing a Lot of Work.
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So it already tells us the creativity choice.
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Most people talk about creativity as something you either have or you don't, but you're arguing that it is actually a conscious, active decision.
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Can you unpack that for us?
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What's the choice and who's making it?
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Uh the first thing to unpack is that word the it is not a single choice, it is a process of making decisions uh from embarking on the process uh when we have ideas, when we are interested in ideas and interested in approaching uh our existence essentially and our work with um with an open mind and with a leaving the door open to possibility of creativity and innovation.
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Um and uh what is who is making decisions?
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Well, uh who is making decisions depends on what we are doing.
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We are making decisions, uh we are making decisions about um whether to engage with ideas, whether to share them, uh what we are going to pursue as our interests, uh, whether we are going to lean into developing our passions, uh, we are making decisions, how we engage in the process of developing those ideas.
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At each decision point, from starting with something weighed to developing it to producing it, um, we have a choice.
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We are at a crossroads, a crossroads between continuing with something that could be original and effective in our environment, or something that is perhaps more conventional, perhaps easier to execute.
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Um, and where we end up depends on how we navigate all of the forks in the road.
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The forks in the road is something, as a head of school, I know my teachers are thinking about because often they're the adult in the room, the coach, the champion of the learner trying to help them make the right choice, how to pattern the conditions, how to structure the environment.
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And one thing in our summer read, we talked about creativity is the work, but that it takes courage.
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And thinking about creativity as a decision, these forks in the road, hopefully, presumably, we read it can be taught, it can be structured, it can be supported.
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And in your book, you walk us through some of those phases.
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That's our whole business is how do we support, teach, and structure learning?
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And we especially are interested in the attribute of creativity.
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So, could you talk a little more about creative self-efficacy?
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I think that's what educators are trying to understand.
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What can we do to set the conditions for creativity to thrive?
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Creative self-efficacy is that sense, belief that you are able to rise to the occasion and do something that is original and effective, which are two components to the definition of creativity.
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Um what we sometimes misunderstand is um that that self-efficacy does not come first.
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It is something that is developed.
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We are not born with it, we do not start with it, you are fully uh certain that you can do something.
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It actually cannot even start that way because if you're doing something creative, it is going to be original.
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If it's original, it means you have not done it before or it hasn't been done before at your school or in your work or in your field of work.
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Uh, so there is no way of knowing whether you can do it or whether it can be done in the first place.
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Uh, and we develop the sense of efficacy and it um ebbs and flows during the creative process.
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We start usually having some doubts, and uh, as we move along the process and are able to achieve some smaller goals and bits and pieces of the work, it builds up, but it's not a linear build.
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It's not a straight line from lower to higher.
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Um, there are also times when we hit the wall, there are also times when we get stuck, get in a dead end, and it dips again.
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So it is an ebb and flow of how confident you are in the process.
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But the key is we can develop it.
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Yeah, I heard you speak earlier today with some teachers about embracing that discomfort along this ebb and flow and the journey.
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Jared, when you hear Zorana talk about creativity as a decision, what does that do to how we think about designing school?
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Sure.
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Um, well, if creativity is a choice and it's a decision that we need to make, I think one of the one of the jobs of schools is to create the conditions under which students are able to make that decision.
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And so what I'm really getting at, and I've heard this word uh earlier today, is we need to create the conditions where students can exercise agency and make choices about their learning and make informed choices about their learning if we want them to be creative.
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And so, how are we setting the conditions for that?
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And I think some of those conditions that we need to set, and this is coming from Matt Bean's work from his uh Legus book, but he talks about creating workplaces, but we can also talk about schools where there's challenge, there is complexity, and there's connection.
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And so we are challenging students, we're not giving them easy work to be creative with, we are giving them complex work.
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So this is work that AI might not be able to do, right?
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And then we're also making sure there is proper connection to mentorship.
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And another way that I want to talk about that is that they need to see students, learners need to see creative self-efficacy and action.
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That is a design mandate.
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And what I mean by that is students need to see adults in the building being visibly creative.
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They need to see adults in the room taking risks, maybe failing and iterating and improving and moving upward.
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And if we're not creating conditions where we are uh uh uh providing that mentorship, providing that connection, providing that example, then it's all the more hard for them to figure out where they can make those choices and activate their agency to be creative.
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And so the last thing I will mention with that, if this is important for us, another condition we need to think about is our assessment designs in school.
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What is it we're measuring?
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What is it we're assessing and therefore incentivizing and rewarding?
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And I think it's important that we take a close look at that and see if are our assessments rewarding compliance or are they rewarding creative struggle?
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I love that you are mentioning uh where this uh creative self-efficacy is coming from.
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And you have touched on multiple ways it can be developed.
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So one prominent way it is developed is by role models, by having role models, by uh seeing, and in your head, uh telling yourself, if they can do it, I can do it too.
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We have to provide role models that are imaginable.
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Uh sometimes as educators, we provide role models that um are ideal role models.
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Uh those Einstein's and Steve Jobs's of this world, but they might not be so imaginable to students.
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They are actually, we believe those are ideal role models, but in reality, they can create um a mindset about creativity that is well, you either have it or you don't have it.
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If we want to foster the growth mindset, we have to provide role models who are coming from our communities, who live and work and achieve something impressive around you, who look like you, who you can imagine yourself being.
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And so that is one prominent way of developing creative self-efficacy.
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Another one is just saying, uh, well, if I have done this before, then I can do uh another task that requires me to be creative.
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Uh and having that awareness that we have done, that the student has previously done something creative.
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They might not be aware of it, even if they have done it, because we do not necessarily tell them.
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We do not use the word creative when we uh are creating assignments or when we are giving feedback.
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Both are helpful in the process of developing creative self-efficacy.
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Uh and that uh scientists called it uh persuasion.
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Uh, I always find that a little bit of a funny term, uh, but it really means um giving the students uh that sense that they are expected to be creative, they have that opportunity, naming it as such, not just creating the assignment, but really calling it this is the opportunity to be creator.
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Because they might not always see it uh that way.
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And by using that word, we are activating um all those ideas that we are trying to teach students of creativity as something where you could be original, something when you're willing to be original, um, and enabling them that way.
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Yeah, I love the idea.
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For me, it's being a student's champion, and these are some of the conditions that allow us to do that.
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In the book, there is a key to creativity that is called out.
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I think you call it problem finding.
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In design thinking, we work a lot in the discovery phase to really define what is the user asking us to solve.
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And we started to marry these two ideas.
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But the argument in the book, and what I want listeners to really sit with, is creativity is not fundamentally about problem solving, and which is really interesting in the age of AI right now.
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So this is something that I would love for you to speak to a little bit more.
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Problem finding, and then Jared, if you could pick up that thread, because I know you're writing about it too, but first to Zarana.
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Uh, I think problem finding is one of those terms that historically got coined and then we got stuck with.
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Uh, but it might be evoking the picture that is not so helpful.
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It sounds like there is a problem, problem is out there, and you have to just find it.
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Once you find it, you are now know what the problem is, and you are going to solve it.
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That's not a helpful picture because um problem finding is not just something that happens in the beginning of the process, it's not just a stage and then you move to another stage, it is approach to create a work.
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And approach that is really based in inquiry, it is based in um examining different perspectives.
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Uh it's asking what is this problem concretely when you have a problem statement that is one line or one paragraph or one page?
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How do you develop it?
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How do you look at it from different perspectives?
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What are those perspectives?
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Each of the different perspectives will create a particular zone of possible uh ideas for solutions.
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Um, how can you maybe combine different perspectives that are being suggested?
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Sometimes those perspectives can be even contradictory, but in the contradiction, there might be an opportunity if you can integrate them in some way.
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And this process of uh problem finding uh or problem construction is not something we do at one point and then move to something else.
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It is a creative process long um uh approach.
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It we could be starting with an idea, uh, and that idea starts changing or morphing uh once we once we move along the process.
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To just use a concrete example, I was writing a book, um, and uh I started with an idea for a book, a big idea for a book, then started elaborating on idea in terms of what are the chapters, what are the different topics I'm going to discuss.
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But as I played with them, I realized that the idea has to change.
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So that some chapters became instead of one, two, other chapters emerged.
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I did not even envision in the beginning.
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All of that is a process of uh problem finding, problem construction.
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And even as I was in the middle of the writing process, um structuring different parts of it, it was still evolving and I was still discovering and constructing, not discovering something that was already there, but constructing something to reach what it could be.
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I love the idea of iteration throughout that process.
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Jared, I know that you relate to this topic.
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I heard you talk about it.
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Well, uh recently we just published an article at NV Ventures, and the article is staged in the context of agentic AI.
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But one of the things it's saying is that human value and where humans will be needed to solve certain constraints is moving upstream from, for example, if agentic AI can solve problems and produce answers at hyper uh fast speeds, the human constraint that needs to be solved, or the the constraint that humans need to solve has moved to things like not answer production, but to question architecture and how do we ask the right questions, knowing that AI can answer and produce a lot of uh uh uh the solutions to those questions.
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And it moves from not just doing the work, but we're also very responsible for making sure we define the work the right way that needs to be done.
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And so I want to read some uh back to you, Zorano, um, some of your own words from your book.
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This is on page 115.
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There is the mistaken assumption that creativity is about solving problems.
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Implicit in equating creativity and problem solving is the belief that problems are out there as fully formed entities in their own right.
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We only have to discover them, take them on, and run with them.
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What I like about this as a former philosophy student is this is one of the great debates of philosophy.
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Is the world already neatly carved out into essential categories for us to go find?
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Or does our human perception in some way shape the way that we carve out the categories in this world, including the problems that we're looking for?
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And so, as you talked about, there's different perspectives and there's different uh places to uh uh um to occupy in terms of point of view when when perceiving a problem.
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And so, knowing that I want to tell a story that's in the article, but it actually comes from a famous widely shared Harvard Business Review article where imagine you are a landlord or an owner of a building and the tenants come to you to complain that the elevator is just too slow.
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And so, right there, we've already framed the problem, right?
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The problem is the elevator is too slow.
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So, what is the solution space to that problem?
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Get a new motor that will speed it up, um, something along those lines, perhaps.
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But the owner, you, the owner, decide to go to a building manager, and this building manager has a totally different perspective and instead frames the problem around, well, maybe the weight's just intolerable.
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And just subtly framing the problem differently like that, and asking a little bit of a slightly different question, open up new solution spaces.
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And so the building manager recommended, well, just put mirrors where people have to wait, because one thing that will distract people is their own lightness, and they will be able to pass the time and not feel so uh intolerably impatient.
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And so, right there, creative solutions nearly always come.
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This is a direct quote from that article, come from an alternative definition of your problem.
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And so, what I see is this is your Problem construction, your problem finding in the wild, right here in this story that was shared in the Harvard Business Uh Review article.
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But it's also an example of moving from doing the work to defining the work, moving from answer production to question architecture.
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And I love this example because it demonstrates something else.
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When you mentioned uh AI previously, AI would not have come up to that because the AI does not have that emotion and understanding of the emotion and experience of it to know that one of the problems is that the weight is intolerable.
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And it does not live in a constraint of our bodily existence and our movement through this space and the feeling of just boredom in a slow elevator.
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So it was not going to come with that framing of the problem.
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It only comes from us paying attention to what is actually going on.
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And we love that stories like that from a design thinking interview, too.
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But I want to I want to jump into your conversation from your two perspectives.
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I'm ahead of school, I work with a lot of teachers.
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We know the learning outcomes, we teach them to our students so that they can lead their own learning, and we have a series of rubrics to guide the work.
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But I think I've heard you guys talk about there there's tricky parts to a rubric.
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And could you make the case around assessment?
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And how do we continue to encourage original and effective ideas coming into action or coming into play at the same time following good instructional design that we've been taught so far is to start with the end in mind.
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Like where do rubrics fit into this conversation?
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Well, rubrics fit into uh setting priorities.
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What's in the rubric is what ends up being important.
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Uh and how you structure assignments is going to be important for the outcome and for learning how to get to that outcome.
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So let's start from the beginning.
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Uh, students are going to get uh an assignment.
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Uh, what is that assignment going to say?
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:36.000
Well, what it's going to say will depend on what you are teaching, but one thing that it can say is be creative.
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:45.519
If you do not tell students explicitly to be creative, they do not know what the permission structure is.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:25:00.079
And uh they default to the ideas of what school and academic learning is, which might not conclude creativity itself, by telling them you are giving them permission.
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:07.039
And I love there, there is research now, uh, multiple decades uh in the making.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:19.039
Uh this words from very simple laboratory tests, when there is a standard instruction, then standard instruction plus two words be creative.
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:26.319
And there is a significant difference in how creative ideas are in those two circumstances.
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:29.759
The same thing happens in the context of work.
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:43.599
Um, those people who have supervisors who expect, ask for directly um creative work, end up getting more creative work in the end.
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:49.359
So having that outcome in the end, you start with asking for it.
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:52.000
So that's one thing that you can structure.
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:58.880
Another thing that we know from research is that first ideas are not the most creative.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:03.119
Well, if we have that insight, what can we do with it?
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:13.440
Well, we can structure those assignments so that students have an opportunity and maybe a requirement to produce multiple ideas.
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:20.000
Uh so maybe the first step in the assignment process is for students to generate ideas.
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:28.319
And then maybe we say, well, let's take aside, put aside the very first ideas you came up with.
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:33.920
Consider those that are number two or three or three and four.
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:36.480
What are they about?
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:48.400
And that way scaffold that process that maybe they are not going to do on their own if we just encourage them verbally to do so.
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:54.799
Let's help them to see the benefit uh of doing that for that final outcome.
00:26:55.119 --> 00:27:09.759
So there are things that we can do by design to enable students to get to that uh outcome, but also learn in a meta way about which process uh enables them to get things.
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:12.799
Which circles back to that self-efficacy conversation.
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:14.000
Jared, do you want to jump in?
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:23.359
Yeah, Zarana, first of all, I really appreciate this point you're making about the simple gesture of telling people to be creative and how that yields better outcome.
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:27.200
It kind of reminds me of the opposite of stereotype threat, right?
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:30.559
Where you're basically signaling to your learner, I know you could be creative.
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:32.000
Like, that's not the question here.
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:44.079
And and and so I I wonder about like, is that in some way like the inverse effect of what we talk about with stereotype threat, where a student thinks that we can't measure up, and then by way of them thinking that they end up underperforming.
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:46.079
So just telling kids to be creative.
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:51.680
I I love that that has the effect that you're talking about and being reminded of such a simple gesture is helpful.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:59.599
Uh one thing I'll say about rubrics is I think it's just really important, and we have to be very careful is what is it we're describing in a rubric?
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:07.920
And and what I mean by that is a rubric could be very task-focused, and I think that will often get us very compliant products.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:32.400
Whereas if you made a rubric more learning focused, like what is the actual learning we want to see taking place in this project and this performance task, or whatever the assignment might be, and making the descriptive rubrics more about the learning gains and less about a description of the task they have to do, I think is also one way to um uh protect ourselves from counter-measure measuring something we didn't intend to measure.
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:36.000
Maybe I want you to exactly do it this way, so you better comply.
00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:49.839
And so being more of a learning-focused rubric as opposed to a task-focused rubric is one step we can take to um giving kids clarity without giving them um uh overly prescribed uh instructions.
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:55.839
I think that's especially important if we talk about attributes and how we build the attributes of the learner.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:01.599
As part of the show, we always like to think about um what are the questions that keep you up at night?
00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:08.400
And in the best way, Zirana, what should educators and leaders be asking right now that maybe they are not?
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:16.319
I think they need to be asking how do we live the technology?
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:32.480
How do we make sure that learning happens, uh, and uh finding ways not to start with fear, uh, but saying, okay, we have we are facing new technologies.
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:38.000
Uh what are the skills we need to work with that?
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:44.480
And I come back to uh the need for uh self-regulation.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:49.200
There's a whole research area about self-regulated learning.
00:29:49.519 --> 00:30:12.640
Um we cannot pretend that these tools don't exist, uh but how do we use them in a way that both they're being used and we are um we are creating, we are building capacities for students to truly thrive.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:31.200
So uh we have seen in some research with AI and preactivity that those who start out having greater capacities to think in creative ways are actually better able to use these tools in more creative ways.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:38.400
You have to start with a human first, and you have to build those human-only capacities.
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:42.400
That is that is a creative problem we are facing.
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:52.400
We do not necessarily know how to do all those things, uh, but we have to start figuring it out and experimenting in it if we are going to get there.
00:30:52.799 --> 00:31:05.200
And uh in 10 years from now, build um both capacities that will enable students to enter those NT-level jobs that exist and might not exist at this time.
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:05.839
That's right.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:07.440
Jared, how about the same question?
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:09.680
I know I know you have ideas that are similar.
00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:10.960
I've heard you talk about it.
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:13.440
So, questions I'd be asking right now.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:18.720
I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a few like more practical questions, and I'm gonna give you a bigger, more uh philosophic question.
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:20.480
Okay, yeah.
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:23.119
So, kind of going back to connecting Dr.
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:35.279
Pringle's work around problem finding to what we're writing about, which is moving from answer production to question architecture, moving the shift from doing the work to defining the work, here's some questions we should ask ourselves.
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:41.359
What if defining your work were an explicit taught practice skill, not just the teacher's job to do?
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:46.319
What if we treated problem finding as a discipline, not a warm-up activity in our schools?
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:51.759
What if students were asked not only to complete tasks, but to design the tasks themselves?
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:55.200
And can they tell the story of how they got there?
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:58.000
And with these questions in mind, here's a bigger question for you.
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:08.400
If school is still over-optimized for answer production and compliance with predefined tasks, are we preparing students for exactly the zone of work that AI will be absorbing?
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:10.160
So something to think about.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:13.359
So we don't want to prepare them for that same area of work.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:34.160
If we're just reinforcing compliance, if we're just reinforcing pre-packaged tasks that we ask kids to do and complete, if we're just rewarding answer production and getting the correct answer, are we perhaps setting up kids to be good at that very zone of work that AI is starting to exhort and take away from us right now?
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:35.839
Something to think about.
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:39.039
Well, that's a perfect segue to our last question.
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:45.279
So not just inspiration, let's let's help our school leaders and our listeners take action.
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:53.440
If you're a school leader, you're a teacher, you're an instructional designer listening right now and thinking, okay, I get it, but what do I do on Monday morning?
00:32:53.599 --> 00:33:01.599
What is the one thing they should do on Monday to continue the idea of building conditions where creativity can thrive?
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:09.680
The very first thing, maybe the easiest thing, and the very first thing is use the word creativity.
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:14.480
Uh label it as this is an opportunity to be creative.
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:24.799
You are giving students the permission and you are easing that uh sharing ideas process when you're doing that.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:40.880
Um, and then scaffold the process so that uh your students might not know about the value of problem finding uh that is not just a phase, but something that happens throughout the process.
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:47.279
They do not know that first ideas are not uh the best ones.
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:50.079
They might think the exact opposite.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:59.680
Um they do not know that uh confidence is built with time, that you do not have to start being confident.
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:13.039
Show them by example, by sharing examples, by providing models, um that uh that confidence is very much like fuel.
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:25.360
And all our machines that take fuel uh do not need to be running on full, they can get us partway there, even on Quarter Tank.
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:27.840
And we start with that and we build on.
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:29.360
That feels doable.
00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:30.079
Thank you.
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:32.719
And Jared, what would you say is the one thing?
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:34.400
I've said it before.
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:36.480
I'm gonna say it in this context too.
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:38.960
Audit your assessments.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:44.000
I think that creativity is both accessible and accessible.
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:50.719
We can learn creativity, we can get good at creativity, and if we can learn it and we can get good at it, then we can evaluate it.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:53.280
And we can evaluate it in our assessment designs.
00:34:53.519 --> 00:35:02.000
And so I think we need to look at our assessments and ask ourselves what messages do these assessment designs communicate to our community and to our learners?
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:12.639
Because if we continue to think of creativity as something we can't assess, then we're mythologizing creativity as this kind of magical talent that only some people have.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:17.840
And so, therefore, it's it's not um equitable to assess there or in some way.
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:26.880
I'm here to say the exact opposite that it is accessible, and therefore, one way to communicate that to kids that they can learn it, that they can get good at it, is to start measuring.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:28.400
Yes.
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:44.559
And for me, um, as the head of an organization, my suggestion is to pick up the book and read the creativity choice, especially the two chapters we have not gone into deep um depth with today, and that is around emotions fueling creativity.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:54.159
You spoke a little bit to that about be careful for fear, but then also that creativity is a social endeavor and the idea of weak and strong ties and feedback.
00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:57.039
I think that's a little teaser out there for our listeners.
00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:00.000
Those two chapters are definitely worth diving into.
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:03.280
And finally, I would say come visit us at Mount Vernon.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:11.199
We're building and trying and thinking about a culture where curiosity leads, design is a daily practice, and joy is the measure.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:17.519
If you're asking big questions about purpose and pathways in the future, you'll feel right at home here.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:21.119
Zarana and Jared, thank you for this conversation.
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:27.119
What I'm taking with me is that creativity isn't a personality trait that you're issued at birth.
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:30.719
It is an active, constant, consistent decision.
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:36.159
And it starts with noticing the problem as we pay attention to it.
00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:38.800
Notice the problem that nobody else did.
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:44.639
If you're listening and you're a school leader, innovator, or simply curious, this is your invitation.
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:47.440
Let's imagine and then act together.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:57.920
You can find links to the book that we've been discussing, The Creativity Choice, Jared's latest article with Melbourne Adventures, and even more references in the show notes.
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:02.960
And remember, great schools don't start with answers, they start with questions.
00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:04.000
Thank you both.
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:04.800
Thank you.
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:05.920
Thank you.
00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:09.039
Welcome to Start with Questions, the podcast where we explore bold ideas shaping the future of learning.
00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:18.640
I'm your host, Christy Lundstrom, CEO of Mount Vernon Ventures and head of school at the Mount Vernon School in Atlanta, as well as Mount Vernon School Online.
00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:31.519
Today's conversation goes right to the heart of this show's name, Start with Questions, because we're going to spend the next half hour discussing with research-informed practices and the experts guiding the work.
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The question is the creative act, and the answer we're looking for is what comes next.
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I'm joined by Dr.
00:00:39.359 --> 00:00:51.840
Zarana Pringle, senior research scientist at the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence and author of the Creative Choice: The Science of Making Decisions to Turn Ideas into Action.
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Her work sits at the intersection of creativity, emotion, and what it actually takes to move an idea from a spark into something real in the world.
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And I'm joined by Jared Colley, our chief innovation officer and editor and senior consultant at Mount Vernon Ventures.
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Jared has been publishing a research series on learning in the age of agentic AI.
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And his latest piece leans directly on Dr.
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Pringle's work.
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So we're going to let them talk to each other.
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What excites me most is that both of these bodies of work, grounded in research, what are the stories telling us?
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What is the data pointing to?
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Zarana, let's start with you.
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Tell us about your journey and what led you to write the book, The Creativity Choice.
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Thank you, first of all, for having me and uh having this conversation.
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Where I started is with a question, right?
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Because I have noticed that um we've all been in brainstorming rooms.
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Ideas come, they come quickly.
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There are a lot of them, but many fewer get developed.
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And I wanted to know why.
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I love that.
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And how did you actually decide to write a book?
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Why stay, why go from research into actually producing a book?
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This is our summary.
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So at our school, we're we are championing your work.
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I will get to write a book because I have realized that there are lots of misconceptions about creativity out there in our culture.
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And I thought, well, if you are frustrated about something, do something about it.
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And I wanted to do something about it.
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And one way was to write a book.
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Thank you.
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And Jared, give us a quick picture also of what Ventures is focused on right now.
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Sure.
00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:03.680
Thank you, Christy, for having me on the podcast.
00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:04.719
And thank you, Dr.
00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:06.639
Pringle, for being here with us today.
00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:08.960
Um, welcome to Start with Questions.
00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:15.840
Uh I am uh over at our RD Consultancy, which is MV Ventures, and we're working on a lot of stuff right now.
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We have an RD report that we put out annually, and this one will be published next month.
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And it is a continuation of some of these articles that we've been publishing, and that it's going to be focusing on what are the human skill shifts that are taking place in the workplace and therefore also impacting our schools and organizations for learning.
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Um, what are those human skills that are shifting in the context of agentic AI?
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And so we're going to be putting out a report about that that is not so much technology-centered, but really human-centered in thinking about what are the skills, the dispositions, and competencies that both we want to be fostering and cultivating in our K-12 learning environments so that we can be successful entry-level workers and successful human beings and thrive in a world with intelligent machines, knowing that it's disrupting so many areas of our lives and how we work, live, and play.
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:16.879
And so also at uh Envy Ventures, we have another report from last year that's gotten a lot of traction called Perpetual Learning.
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And we have a new app that we've developed that schools can access on our website.
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And they can kind of do a self-audit or um a self-assessment of how they're doing with certain cultures of practice that help our organizations and our individuals in that organization improve in their practice.
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And so that's gotten a lot of traction to you.
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And of course, we're staying very busy with different consulting clients as well.
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Yeah, let's dive in and talk a little bit about the culture you're describing.
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Zarana, the title of the book is Doing a Lot of Work.
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So it already tells us the creativity choice.
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Most people talk about creativity as something you either have or you don't, but you're arguing that it is actually a conscious, active decision.
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Can you unpack that for us?
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What's the choice and who's making it?
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Uh the first thing to unpack is that word the it is not a single choice, it is a process of making decisions uh from embarking on the process uh when we have ideas, when we are interested in ideas and interested in approaching uh our existence essentially and our work with um with an open mind and with a leaving the door open to possibility of creativity and innovation.
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Um and uh what is who is making decisions?
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Well, uh who is making decisions depends on what we are doing.
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We are making decisions, uh we are making decisions about um whether to engage with ideas, whether to share them, uh what we are going to pursue as our interests, uh, whether we are going to lean into developing our passions, uh, we are making decisions, how we engage in the process of developing those ideas.
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At each decision point, from starting with something weighed to developing it to producing it, um, we have a choice.
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We are at a crossroads, a crossroads between continuing with something that could be original and effective in our environment, or something that is perhaps more conventional, perhaps easier to execute.
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Um, and where we end up depends on how we navigate all of the forks in the road.
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The forks in the road is something, as a head of school, I know my teachers are thinking about because often they're the adult in the room, the coach, the champion of the learner trying to help them make the right choice, how to pattern the conditions, how to structure the environment.
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And one thing in our summer read, we talked about creativity is the work, but that it takes courage.
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And thinking about creativity as a decision, these forks in the road, hopefully, presumably, we read it can be taught, it can be structured, it can be supported.
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And in your book, you walk us through some of those phases.
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That's our whole business is how do we support, teach, and structure learning?
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And we especially are interested in the attribute of creativity.
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So, could you talk a little more about creative self-efficacy?
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I think that's what educators are trying to understand.
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What can we do to set the conditions for creativity to thrive?
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Creative self-efficacy is that sense, belief that you are able to rise to the occasion and do something that is original and effective, which are two components to the definition of creativity.
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Um what we sometimes misunderstand is um that that self-efficacy does not come first.
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It is something that is developed.
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We are not born with it, we do not start with it, you are fully uh certain that you can do something.
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It actually cannot even start that way because if you're doing something creative, it is going to be original.
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If it's original, it means you have not done it before or it hasn't been done before at your school or in your work or in your field of work.
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Uh, so there is no way of knowing whether you can do it or whether it can be done in the first place.
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Uh, and we develop the sense of efficacy and it um ebbs and flows during the creative process.
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We start usually having some doubts, and uh, as we move along the process and are able to achieve some smaller goals and bits and pieces of the work, it builds up, but it's not a linear build.
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It's not a straight line from lower to higher.
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Um, there are also times when we hit the wall, there are also times when we get stuck, get in a dead end, and it dips again.
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So it is an ebb and flow of how confident you are in the process.
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But the key is we can develop it.
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Yeah, I heard you speak earlier today with some teachers about embracing that discomfort along this ebb and flow and the journey.
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Jared, when you hear Zorana talk about creativity as a decision, what does that do to how we think about designing school?
00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:02.159
Sure.
00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:13.759
Um, well, if creativity is a choice and it's a decision that we need to make, I think one of the one of the jobs of schools is to create the conditions under which students are able to make that decision.
00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:28.080
And so what I'm really getting at, and I've heard this word uh earlier today, is we need to create the conditions where students can exercise agency and make choices about their learning and make informed choices about their learning if we want them to be creative.
00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:30.080
And so, how are we setting the conditions for that?
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:44.320
And I think some of those conditions that we need to set, and this is coming from Matt Bean's work from his uh Legus book, but he talks about creating workplaces, but we can also talk about schools where there's challenge, there is complexity, and there's connection.
00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:50.559
And so we are challenging students, we're not giving them easy work to be creative with, we are giving them complex work.
00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:53.440
So this is work that AI might not be able to do, right?
00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.120
And then we're also making sure there is proper connection to mentorship.
00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:04.720
And another way that I want to talk about that is that they need to see students, learners need to see creative self-efficacy and action.
00:11:04.879 --> 00:11:06.159
That is a design mandate.
00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:11.440
And what I mean by that is students need to see adults in the building being visibly creative.
00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:17.519
They need to see adults in the room taking risks, maybe failing and iterating and improving and moving upward.
00:11:17.679 --> 00:11:30.960
And if we're not creating conditions where we are uh uh uh providing that mentorship, providing that connection, providing that example, then it's all the more hard for them to figure out where they can make those choices and activate their agency to be creative.
00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:37.440
And so the last thing I will mention with that, if this is important for us, another condition we need to think about is our assessment designs in school.
00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:38.799
What is it we're measuring?
00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:42.639
What is it we're assessing and therefore incentivizing and rewarding?
00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:50.399
And I think it's important that we take a close look at that and see if are our assessments rewarding compliance or are they rewarding creative struggle?
00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:58.399
I love that you are mentioning uh where this uh creative self-efficacy is coming from.
00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:02.159
And you have touched on multiple ways it can be developed.
00:12:02.720 --> 00:12:19.919
So one prominent way it is developed is by role models, by having role models, by uh seeing, and in your head, uh telling yourself, if they can do it, I can do it too.
00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:23.759
We have to provide role models that are imaginable.
00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:32.799
Uh sometimes as educators, we provide role models that um are ideal role models.
00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:40.960
Uh those Einstein's and Steve Jobs's of this world, but they might not be so imaginable to students.
00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:56.000
They are actually, we believe those are ideal role models, but in reality, they can create um a mindset about creativity that is well, you either have it or you don't have it.
00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:16.960
If we want to foster the growth mindset, we have to provide role models who are coming from our communities, who live and work and achieve something impressive around you, who look like you, who you can imagine yourself being.
00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:22.399
And so that is one prominent way of developing creative self-efficacy.
00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:34.639
Another one is just saying, uh, well, if I have done this before, then I can do uh another task that requires me to be creative.
00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:42.320
Uh and having that awareness that we have done, that the student has previously done something creative.
00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:48.960
They might not be aware of it, even if they have done it, because we do not necessarily tell them.
00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:57.279
We do not use the word creative when we uh are creating assignments or when we are giving feedback.
00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:04.000
Both are helpful in the process of developing creative self-efficacy.
00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:10.000
Uh and that uh scientists called it uh persuasion.
00:14:10.159 --> 00:14:37.200
Uh, I always find that a little bit of a funny term, uh, but it really means um giving the students uh that sense that they are expected to be creative, they have that opportunity, naming it as such, not just creating the assignment, but really calling it this is the opportunity to be creator.
00:14:37.519 --> 00:14:40.799
Because they might not always see it uh that way.
00:14:41.440 --> 00:15:00.559
And by using that word, we are activating um all those ideas that we are trying to teach students of creativity as something where you could be original, something when you're willing to be original, um, and enabling them that way.
00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:02.320
Yeah, I love the idea.
00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:07.679
For me, it's being a student's champion, and these are some of the conditions that allow us to do that.
00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:12.399
In the book, there is a key to creativity that is called out.
00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:14.799
I think you call it problem finding.
00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:24.159
In design thinking, we work a lot in the discovery phase to really define what is the user asking us to solve.
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:27.279
And we started to marry these two ideas.
00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:39.360
But the argument in the book, and what I want listeners to really sit with, is creativity is not fundamentally about problem solving, and which is really interesting in the age of AI right now.
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:42.559
So this is something that I would love for you to speak to a little bit more.
00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:49.759
Problem finding, and then Jared, if you could pick up that thread, because I know you're writing about it too, but first to Zarana.
00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:59.200
Uh, I think problem finding is one of those terms that historically got coined and then we got stuck with.
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:04.720
Uh, but it might be evoking the picture that is not so helpful.
00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:11.039
It sounds like there is a problem, problem is out there, and you have to just find it.
00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:17.440
Once you find it, you are now know what the problem is, and you are going to solve it.
00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:32.720
That's not a helpful picture because um problem finding is not just something that happens in the beginning of the process, it's not just a stage and then you move to another stage, it is approach to create a work.
00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:42.879
And approach that is really based in inquiry, it is based in um examining different perspectives.
00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:56.080
Uh it's asking what is this problem concretely when you have a problem statement that is one line or one paragraph or one page?
00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:57.679
How do you develop it?
00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:00.559
How do you look at it from different perspectives?
00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:02.480
What are those perspectives?
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:11.920
Each of the different perspectives will create a particular zone of possible uh ideas for solutions.
00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:18.559
Um, how can you maybe combine different perspectives that are being suggested?
00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:27.839
Sometimes those perspectives can be even contradictory, but in the contradiction, there might be an opportunity if you can integrate them in some way.
00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:41.599
And this process of uh problem finding uh or problem construction is not something we do at one point and then move to something else.
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:49.680
It is a creative process long um uh approach.
00:17:50.480 --> 00:18:06.400
It we could be starting with an idea, uh, and that idea starts changing or morphing uh once we once we move along the process.
00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:25.119
To just use a concrete example, I was writing a book, um, and uh I started with an idea for a book, a big idea for a book, then started elaborating on idea in terms of what are the chapters, what are the different topics I'm going to discuss.
00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:32.960
But as I played with them, I realized that the idea has to change.
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:39.119
So that some chapters became instead of one, two, other chapters emerged.
00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:41.680
I did not even envision in the beginning.
00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:47.759
All of that is a process of uh problem finding, problem construction.
00:18:48.079 --> 00:19:08.160
And even as I was in the middle of the writing process, um structuring different parts of it, it was still evolving and I was still discovering and constructing, not discovering something that was already there, but constructing something to reach what it could be.
00:19:08.960 --> 00:19:11.839
I love the idea of iteration throughout that process.
00:19:12.079 --> 00:19:14.000
Jared, I know that you relate to this topic.
00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:15.279
I heard you talk about it.
00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:23.519
Well, uh recently we just published an article at NV Ventures, and the article is staged in the context of agentic AI.
00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:55.599
But one of the things it's saying is that human value and where humans will be needed to solve certain constraints is moving upstream from, for example, if agentic AI can solve problems and produce answers at hyper uh fast speeds, the human constraint that needs to be solved, or the the constraint that humans need to solve has moved to things like not answer production, but to question architecture and how do we ask the right questions, knowing that AI can answer and produce a lot of uh uh uh the solutions to those questions.
00:19:55.839 --> 00:20:04.079
And it moves from not just doing the work, but we're also very responsible for making sure we define the work the right way that needs to be done.
00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:09.039
And so I want to read some uh back to you, Zorano, um, some of your own words from your book.
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:10.480
This is on page 115.
00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:14.400
There is the mistaken assumption that creativity is about solving problems.
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:21.920
Implicit in equating creativity and problem solving is the belief that problems are out there as fully formed entities in their own right.
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:25.359
We only have to discover them, take them on, and run with them.
00:20:25.519 --> 00:20:29.839
What I like about this as a former philosophy student is this is one of the great debates of philosophy.
00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:34.640
Is the world already neatly carved out into essential categories for us to go find?
00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:42.559
Or does our human perception in some way shape the way that we carve out the categories in this world, including the problems that we're looking for?
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:52.160
And so, as you talked about, there's different perspectives and there's different uh places to uh uh um to occupy in terms of point of view when when perceiving a problem.
00:20:52.319 --> 00:21:06.640
And so, knowing that I want to tell a story that's in the article, but it actually comes from a famous widely shared Harvard Business Review article where imagine you are a landlord or an owner of a building and the tenants come to you to complain that the elevator is just too slow.
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:09.680
And so, right there, we've already framed the problem, right?
00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:11.680
The problem is the elevator is too slow.
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:14.240
So, what is the solution space to that problem?
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:19.200
Get a new motor that will speed it up, um, something along those lines, perhaps.
00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:29.519
But the owner, you, the owner, decide to go to a building manager, and this building manager has a totally different perspective and instead frames the problem around, well, maybe the weight's just intolerable.
00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:36.480
And just subtly framing the problem differently like that, and asking a little bit of a slightly different question, open up new solution spaces.
00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:49.519
And so the building manager recommended, well, just put mirrors where people have to wait, because one thing that will distract people is their own lightness, and they will be able to pass the time and not feel so uh intolerably impatient.
00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:53.759
And so, right there, creative solutions nearly always come.
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:58.079
This is a direct quote from that article, come from an alternative definition of your problem.
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:07.440
And so, what I see is this is your Problem construction, your problem finding in the wild, right here in this story that was shared in the Harvard Business Uh Review article.
00:22:07.519 --> 00:22:15.039
But it's also an example of moving from doing the work to defining the work, moving from answer production to question architecture.
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:19.359
And I love this example because it demonstrates something else.
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:38.160
When you mentioned uh AI previously, AI would not have come up to that because the AI does not have that emotion and understanding of the emotion and experience of it to know that one of the problems is that the weight is intolerable.
00:22:39.680 --> 00:22:56.960
And it does not live in a constraint of our bodily existence and our movement through this space and the feeling of just boredom in a slow elevator.
00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.559
So it was not going to come with that framing of the problem.
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:06.720
It only comes from us paying attention to what is actually going on.
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.680
And we love that stories like that from a design thinking interview, too.
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:17.119
But I want to I want to jump into your conversation from your two perspectives.
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:20.079
I'm ahead of school, I work with a lot of teachers.
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:29.039
We know the learning outcomes, we teach them to our students so that they can lead their own learning, and we have a series of rubrics to guide the work.
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:35.440
But I think I've heard you guys talk about there there's tricky parts to a rubric.
00:23:35.519 --> 00:23:37.599
And could you make the case around assessment?
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:52.079
And how do we continue to encourage original and effective ideas coming into action or coming into play at the same time following good instructional design that we've been taught so far is to start with the end in mind.
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.400
Like where do rubrics fit into this conversation?
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:02.160
Well, rubrics fit into uh setting priorities.
00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:06.079
What's in the rubric is what ends up being important.
00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:18.000
Uh and how you structure assignments is going to be important for the outcome and for learning how to get to that outcome.
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:20.960
So let's start from the beginning.
00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:25.279
Uh, students are going to get uh an assignment.
00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:27.680
Uh, what is that assignment going to say?
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:36.000
Well, what it's going to say will depend on what you are teaching, but one thing that it can say is be creative.
00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:45.519
If you do not tell students explicitly to be creative, they do not know what the permission structure is.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:25:00.079
And uh they default to the ideas of what school and academic learning is, which might not conclude creativity itself, by telling them you are giving them permission.
00:25:00.319 --> 00:25:07.039
And I love there, there is research now, uh, multiple decades uh in the making.
00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:19.039
Uh this words from very simple laboratory tests, when there is a standard instruction, then standard instruction plus two words be creative.
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:26.319
And there is a significant difference in how creative ideas are in those two circumstances.
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:29.759
The same thing happens in the context of work.
00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:43.599
Um, those people who have supervisors who expect, ask for directly um creative work, end up getting more creative work in the end.
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:49.359
So having that outcome in the end, you start with asking for it.
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:52.000
So that's one thing that you can structure.
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:58.880
Another thing that we know from research is that first ideas are not the most creative.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:03.119
Well, if we have that insight, what can we do with it?
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:13.440
Well, we can structure those assignments so that students have an opportunity and maybe a requirement to produce multiple ideas.
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:20.000
Uh so maybe the first step in the assignment process is for students to generate ideas.
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:28.319
And then maybe we say, well, let's take aside, put aside the very first ideas you came up with.
00:26:28.640 --> 00:26:33.920
Consider those that are number two or three or three and four.
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:36.480
What are they about?
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:48.400
And that way scaffold that process that maybe they are not going to do on their own if we just encourage them verbally to do so.
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:54.799
Let's help them to see the benefit uh of doing that for that final outcome.
00:26:55.119 --> 00:27:09.759
So there are things that we can do by design to enable students to get to that uh outcome, but also learn in a meta way about which process uh enables them to get things.
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:12.799
Which circles back to that self-efficacy conversation.
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:14.000
Jared, do you want to jump in?
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:23.359
Yeah, Zarana, first of all, I really appreciate this point you're making about the simple gesture of telling people to be creative and how that yields better outcome.
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:27.200
It kind of reminds me of the opposite of stereotype threat, right?
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:30.559
Where you're basically signaling to your learner, I know you could be creative.
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:32.000
Like, that's not the question here.
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:44.079
And and and so I I wonder about like, is that in some way like the inverse effect of what we talk about with stereotype threat, where a student thinks that we can't measure up, and then by way of them thinking that they end up underperforming.
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:46.079
So just telling kids to be creative.
00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:51.680
I I love that that has the effect that you're talking about and being reminded of such a simple gesture is helpful.
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:59.599
Uh one thing I'll say about rubrics is I think it's just really important, and we have to be very careful is what is it we're describing in a rubric?
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:07.920
And and what I mean by that is a rubric could be very task-focused, and I think that will often get us very compliant products.
00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:32.400
Whereas if you made a rubric more learning focused, like what is the actual learning we want to see taking place in this project and this performance task, or whatever the assignment might be, and making the descriptive rubrics more about the learning gains and less about a description of the task they have to do, I think is also one way to um uh protect ourselves from counter-measure measuring something we didn't intend to measure.
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:36.000
Maybe I want you to exactly do it this way, so you better comply.
00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:49.839
And so being more of a learning-focused rubric as opposed to a task-focused rubric is one step we can take to um giving kids clarity without giving them um uh overly prescribed uh instructions.
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:55.839
I think that's especially important if we talk about attributes and how we build the attributes of the learner.
00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:01.599
As part of the show, we always like to think about um what are the questions that keep you up at night?
00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:08.400
And in the best way, Zirana, what should educators and leaders be asking right now that maybe they are not?
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:16.319
I think they need to be asking how do we live the technology?
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:32.480
How do we make sure that learning happens, uh, and uh finding ways not to start with fear, uh, but saying, okay, we have we are facing new technologies.
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:38.000
Uh what are the skills we need to work with that?
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:44.480
And I come back to uh the need for uh self-regulation.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:49.200
There's a whole research area about self-regulated learning.
00:29:49.519 --> 00:30:12.640
Um we cannot pretend that these tools don't exist, uh but how do we use them in a way that both they're being used and we are um we are creating, we are building capacities for students to truly thrive.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:31.200
So uh we have seen in some research with AI and preactivity that those who start out having greater capacities to think in creative ways are actually better able to use these tools in more creative ways.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:38.400
You have to start with a human first, and you have to build those human-only capacities.
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:42.400
That is that is a creative problem we are facing.
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:52.400
We do not necessarily know how to do all those things, uh, but we have to start figuring it out and experimenting in it if we are going to get there.
00:30:52.799 --> 00:31:05.200
And uh in 10 years from now, build um both capacities that will enable students to enter those NT-level jobs that exist and might not exist at this time.
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:05.839
That's right.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:07.440
Jared, how about the same question?
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:09.680
I know I know you have ideas that are similar.
00:31:09.759 --> 00:31:10.960
I've heard you talk about it.
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:13.440
So, questions I'd be asking right now.
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:18.720
I'm gonna I'm gonna give you a few like more practical questions, and I'm gonna give you a bigger, more uh philosophic question.
00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:20.480
Okay, yeah.
00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:23.119
So, kind of going back to connecting Dr.
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:35.279
Pringle's work around problem finding to what we're writing about, which is moving from answer production to question architecture, moving the shift from doing the work to defining the work, here's some questions we should ask ourselves.
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:41.359
What if defining your work were an explicit taught practice skill, not just the teacher's job to do?
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:46.319
What if we treated problem finding as a discipline, not a warm-up activity in our schools?
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:51.759
What if students were asked not only to complete tasks, but to design the tasks themselves?
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:55.200
And can they tell the story of how they got there?
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:58.000
And with these questions in mind, here's a bigger question for you.
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:08.400
If school is still over-optimized for answer production and compliance with predefined tasks, are we preparing students for exactly the zone of work that AI will be absorbing?
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:10.160
So something to think about.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:13.359
So we don't want to prepare them for that same area of work.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:34.160
If we're just reinforcing compliance, if we're just reinforcing pre-packaged tasks that we ask kids to do and complete, if we're just rewarding answer production and getting the correct answer, are we perhaps setting up kids to be good at that very zone of work that AI is starting to exhort and take away from us right now?
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:35.839
Something to think about.
00:32:36.240 --> 00:32:39.039
Well, that's a perfect segue to our last question.
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:45.279
So not just inspiration, let's let's help our school leaders and our listeners take action.
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:53.440
If you're a school leader, you're a teacher, you're an instructional designer listening right now and thinking, okay, I get it, but what do I do on Monday morning?
00:32:53.599 --> 00:33:01.599
What is the one thing they should do on Monday to continue the idea of building conditions where creativity can thrive?
00:33:02.480 --> 00:33:09.680
The very first thing, maybe the easiest thing, and the very first thing is use the word creativity.
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:14.480
Uh label it as this is an opportunity to be creative.
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:24.799
You are giving students the permission and you are easing that uh sharing ideas process when you're doing that.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:40.880
Um, and then scaffold the process so that uh your students might not know about the value of problem finding uh that is not just a phase, but something that happens throughout the process.
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:47.279
They do not know that first ideas are not uh the best ones.
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:50.079
They might think the exact opposite.
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:59.680
Um they do not know that uh confidence is built with time, that you do not have to start being confident.
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:13.039
Show them by example, by sharing examples, by providing models, um that uh that confidence is very much like fuel.
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:25.360
And all our machines that take fuel uh do not need to be running on full, they can get us partway there, even on Quarter Tank.
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:27.840
And we start with that and we build on.
00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:29.360
That feels doable.
00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:30.079
Thank you.
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:32.719
And Jared, what would you say is the one thing?
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:34.400
I've said it before.
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:36.480
I'm gonna say it in this context too.
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:38.960
Audit your assessments.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:44.000
I think that creativity is both accessible and accessible.
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:50.719
We can learn creativity, we can get good at creativity, and if we can learn it and we can get good at it, then we can evaluate it.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:53.280
And we can evaluate it in our assessment designs.
00:34:53.519 --> 00:35:02.000
And so I think we need to look at our assessments and ask ourselves what messages do these assessment designs communicate to our community and to our learners?
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:12.639
Because if we continue to think of creativity as something we can't assess, then we're mythologizing creativity as this kind of magical talent that only some people have.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:17.840
And so, therefore, it's it's not um equitable to assess there or in some way.
00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:26.880
I'm here to say the exact opposite that it is accessible, and therefore, one way to communicate that to kids that they can learn it, that they can get good at it, is to start measuring.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:28.400
Yes.
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:44.559
And for me, um, as the head of an organization, my suggestion is to pick up the book and read the creativity choice, especially the two chapters we have not gone into deep um depth with today, and that is around emotions fueling creativity.
00:35:44.719 --> 00:35:54.159
You spoke a little bit to that about be careful for fear, but then also that creativity is a social endeavor and the idea of weak and strong ties and feedback.
00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:57.039
I think that's a little teaser out there for our listeners.
00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:00.000
Those two chapters are definitely worth diving into.
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:03.280
And finally, I would say come visit us at Mount Vernon.
00:36:03.440 --> 00:36:11.199
We're building and trying and thinking about a culture where curiosity leads, design is a daily practice, and joy is the measure.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:17.519
If you're asking big questions about purpose and pathways in the future, you'll feel right at home here.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:21.119
Zarana and Jared, thank you for this conversation.
00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:27.119
What I'm taking with me is that creativity isn't a personality trait that you're issued at birth.
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:30.719
It is an active, constant, consistent decision.
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:36.159
And it starts with noticing the problem as we pay attention to it.
00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:38.800
Notice the problem that nobody else did.
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:44.639
If you're listening and you're a school leader, innovator, or simply curious, this is your invitation.
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:47.440
Let's imagine and then act together.
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:57.920
You can find links to the book that we've been discussing, The Creativity Choice, Jared's latest article with Melbourne Adventures, and even more references in the show notes.
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:02.960
And remember, great schools don't start with answers, they start with questions.
00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:04.000
Thank you both.
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:04.800
Thank you.
00:37:05.119 --> 00:37:05.920
Thank you.
