Self-Care: Can You Hack Your Mood?

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Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Versus.
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Today on the show, we are pitting facts against self-care.
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The internet these days is littered with self-care hacks that
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promise to make you feel like a better you. People
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say that by jumping into ice-cold water, they feel incredibly happy.
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Cold plunging has certainly caught on.
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From celebs to everyday athletes taking a dip into frigid water.
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Here we go.
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Here we go.
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Oh, yeah.
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Don't be aware of getting a f * * *
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ing cold.
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It's great for everybody.
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So that's called plunges.
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But if you're not into that, some say that writing
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a gratitude journal is so powerful that it can rewire
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our brains. Gratitude will change your f * * *
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ing life.
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I've said it and I'm going to say it again.
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Gratitude is the attitude.
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Today, we are exploring the science behind some of the
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buzziest self-care ideas.
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And so, of course, for the show, I had to give.
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Them a go.
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I jumped in cold water. If I could make a
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sound effect for my legs right now, it would be.
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I wrote a gratitude journal.
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That's how I feel.
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Oh my gosh, this feels icky.
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To write a gratitude journal for my own self-care.
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You know what? I found something about myself that I
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never expected. I actually feel so much better.
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Am I about to become a self-care person? When it
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comes to self-care, there's a lot of.
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Getting the f * * * ing cold.
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But then, there's science.
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Science vs.
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Self-Care is coming up just after the break. Welcome back.
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Today on the show, we are talking about self-care. Is
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there any science behind it? Michelle Dang, our producer here,
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has been looking into this.
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Hey, Michelle.
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Hey, Wendy. So, Wendy, are you into self-care?
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No, I am not into self-care.
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That was a long pause.
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It shouldn't be. No, I have made fun of self-care
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in private.
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But I've never actually looked into the science of it.
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And I will say that the past few months have
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been quite stressful for me.
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And so I would love.
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Some ways to not be so stressed and to feel better.
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Are you ready? I'm ready.
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I'm ready.
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So where do we begin?
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All right.
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So the first one we're looking into today is ice baths.
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This trend actually involves all kinds of cold water stuff,
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including cold showers.
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I'm really excited we're looking into this because they're everywhere
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right now.
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Here's what I have heard.
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They are amazing for your mind and body. They just
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make you feel great. They can cure depression. Everyone should
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be doing them. You're a wimp if you don't do
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it because the science is so clear on this.
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Get in the water, basically. This is the vibe I'm
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hearing from the internet. So is it true?
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So I found the perfect person to dive into this.
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Her name is Heather Massey from the University of Portsmouth
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in the UK.
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And.
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You should know that Heather is not unfamiliar to cold herself.
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Yeah, I'm a cold water swimmer. So I have been
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in really quite chilly water. So the coldest water I've
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been in is water that is 0.2 degrees Celsius.
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0.2 degrees.
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Okay, so for our American friends, this is 32 degrees
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Fahrenheit or just cold.
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That's really cold.
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I wasn't in it for very long and I don't
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advise it.
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Yeah, so Heather was selected to represent Great Britain at
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the Ice Swimming World Championship in 2017.
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Ice Swimming Championship. Okay, so this scientist likes cold water.
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She actually has a small pool in her lab that
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makes things super cold. And she has people get into
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it so she can see what happens to their body.
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So what has she found in her cool pool?
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Yeah, so Heather told me about what happens to your
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body Once you get into that cold water, there are
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actually some reasons why it might give you a mood boost.
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So when you get into the cold water, your body
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gets this huge response called the cold shock response.
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As soon as you get in, you feel a big,
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an urge to take a big deep breath in. And
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then you get this rapid breathing response, a hyperventilation response.
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It peaks after about the first 30 seconds, and we
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notice after that that it starts to wane.
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Now, it might take.
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Between 90 seconds to three minutes to pass. But alongside
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that change in your breathing, you're also going to experience
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changes in your blood pressure and also a big increase
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in your heart rate as well.
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Yeah, she describes it well, right? You know, that feeling of, oh,
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my God, oh, my God, get out of the water.
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Right. So, you know, that stimulation certainly wakes you up
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a bit, but it can also set up this whole
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hormonal cocktail that could make people feel a bit giddy.
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Just like there was this study that had 10 men
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sit in water that was about 14 degrees Celsius or
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57 degrees Fahrenheit. And they had them sit there for
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an hour. And what they found was something kind of surprising.
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This cold water immersion... actually boosted their dopamine levels in
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their blood. So, you know, dopamine.
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Right.
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One of our feel-good hormones. And in this study, it
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actually went up by 250% compared to where they started.
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Wow.
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Wow, that's for an hour just sitting in this cold,
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cold water.
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Which is quite a long time. Yeah. They also found
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a boost in another chemical called called noradrenaline, it went
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up by 530%. And when they checked their bloods an
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hour later, these chemicals had started to drop off, but
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they were still higher than before jumping into the cold.
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Now this paper of 10 dudes gets talked about a
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lot in the ice bath world, but we don't really
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know if everyone will get these huge spikes. Heather says
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there could be something here, though.
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So these are all hormones that have a big impact
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on our mood. We also get big changes in brain
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blood flow as well. And different parts of the brain
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have different activity levels once we've been in the cold water.
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So all of these things happening may be mood altering.
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And we see other potential benefits too. Like in the
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immune system, you can see upticks in certain immune markers
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like T cells and B cells.
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Oh, cool.
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So, you know, even though these changes are temporary, it's
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super interesting.
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Yeah.
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So changes in the blood. of these important hormones. Sounds promising.
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What do we know about how it affects our mood?
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Yeah.
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Because there's kind of all these claims out there that
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it makes us feel great and might even be able
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to help with depression.
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Yeah.
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So the current buzz is on ice baths and cold showers.
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We don't have a lot of research there with mental health.
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Oh.
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What we do have, though, are studies on cold water swimming. Oh, okay.
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Like Heather and her team did this one study where
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they looked at around 60 people who signed up for
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a 10-week cold water swimming course. And what they did
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was compare their mood and well-being to their friends and
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family who sat on the beach.
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Don't picture Hawaiian suns with gorgeous white, sandy beaches.
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It was raining. It was quite windy.
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And so we didn't actually think we would see many
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changes in people's mood and well-being.
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Okay. What did they find?
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What they found was that the swimmers did get a
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mood boost and that it was a bigger increase compared
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to those people who just chilled on the beach.
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And when we surveyed them at the final survey point
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at the end of that last session, they were still very,
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very excited, very active, very engaged. So really a really
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positive experience for them.
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Now, other cold water swimming studies have found stuff like
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this too.
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Right.
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That cold water swimming can make you feel less tense
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and less stressed.
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Uh-huh.
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Uh-huh.
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I guess, like, I don't know.
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Like, those studies, I don't find that convincing to say
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that this can help people with their depression because someone
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who signs up for a cold water swimming study, like, A,
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wants to get in the water. And B, there's so
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many reasons why you might get a mood boost from
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being in this big group of people where you all
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want to jump in the water together and you're so
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proud of yourselves that you've done it and you've achieved something.
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To me, I'm not jumping to, oh, we have a
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cure for depression.
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You totally hit the nail. Heather says that all can
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be a part of this.
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You've developed a common interest with people. Yeah. a social
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side to it.
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So those are the cold water studies. And then Heather
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did tell me about this interesting anecdote, or I guess
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it was a case study, where Heather's team worked with
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a woman who had really nasty depression.
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She was on a lot of medication for depression, and
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she felt that it really wasn't working for her.
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So she did say she would try anything.
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They had her try cold water swimming with the swim
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coach once or twice a week, and it really seemed
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to make a difference.
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Gradually, over the course of that summer, she, in consultation
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with her doctor, reduced her medication because her symptoms of
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depression had reduced. And by the end of the summer,
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she was not taking any medication for her depression.
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Oh, wow. But that, of course, is just one person.
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So if you want to.
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Hear another anecdote from another person, I have found that
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I do actually like jumping into cold water.
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Do you?
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No. No, not at all.
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I have access to an incredibly.
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Cold swimming pool and I have been.
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Jumping into it and I really like it. And I
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get that. I get those.
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that giddy feeling you were describing.
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But I will say that.
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I have tried to get friends to jump into the
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pool too, who are going through like tough times. And
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I'm like, maybe it'll make you feel good. Like it
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makes me feel. And they'll just be like, nope, absolutely not.
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Like not interested. And it has made me wonder, like,
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do we have, because a lot of the studies you've
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been talking about seem to be people who wanted to
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go into the water, but do we have studies that
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like randomized control studies where they've just like pulled people
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out and actually seen it gives mood boosts to everyone or,
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you know, many different kinds of people, not just those
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who are like, woohoo, let's get in the water.
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Yeah, yeah, I totally see your point. We don't have
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that evidence yet. Right. But the science is headed there. So,
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you know, Heather's working on a randomized control trial right now.
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And what they're doing is randomizing people with depression symptoms
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to take a cold water swimming course on top of
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their regular treatment. And she actually told me it's early,
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but they've already been seeing a benefit come through. Though
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until we get more data, Heather's stamped on the point
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many times that we're not at the point where science
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can say that this works for everyone. And, you know,
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there are physiological reasons why it probably won't work for everyone.
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Oh, what are they?
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It might actually be quite painful for some people to
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do it, where their nerves at the surface of the skin,
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cold receptors, get more of a nasty jolt from the cold.
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Basically, you can imagine that it's like having lots of
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pins and needles. And it's that painful for some people.
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Interesting.
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It's funny because I feel like the way that this
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is talked about online or even just like over beers
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is that if you're sensitive to the cold, that's a
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code word for you're a wimp. But actually, there are
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physiological reasons why it's different for some people.
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Right.
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And, you know, there's other possible bad stuff too that
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people should watch out for before doing this. Like there's
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this thing called non-freezing cold injury. where you can actually
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get nerve or blood vessel damage from being too cold
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or wet for too long.
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Ooh.
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So Heather's seen it in friends who swim in icy water,
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and it can look pretty gnarly when it first happens.
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It's pretty horrific.
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Their hand, the whole hand is swollen up, so it
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looks like a bit of a cartoon hand. So rather than,
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you know, their fingers got very, very puffy and very big,
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and they could barely bend their fingers anymore. They were
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in quite a lot of pain as a result of
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it as well.
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And sometimes this pain can stick around. Some people even
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get permanent damage.
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Oh, man.
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Heather says what's also a bit yikesy about this is
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that it can be different from one person to the
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next because people's bodies get cold at different rates. So
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this means that the temperature or time that could give
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you this non-freezing injury could be totally different for you
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than for me.
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We don't know what the dose of cold is that's required.
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We don't know.
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It might be for some people that it could be
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a four-minute ice bath. It could be in other people.
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It could be in 15-degree water.
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Yeah, that's 59 Fahrenheit.
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00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:51.389
Yeah, that's not that cold.
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Yeah.
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It's way warmer than an ice bath, that's for sure.
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Also, you know, jumping into cold water can change your
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heart rate pretty rapidly. So it's not recommended for people
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with heart conditions to just plunge in there. So, you know,
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as for all this stuff on socials, that's like, get
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in the water. Heather's like, that's not what the science
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says yet.
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It's not an activity that we should prescribe to people.
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If people want to try it, then let them have
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the opportunity to try it. But it's not something we
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should say, it's worked for me, so it's going to
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work for you.
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And just one more quick thing. When you're on TikTok,
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you often hear this set of instructions to do 11
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minutes a week.
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11 minutes, right?
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Yeah, 11 minutes. But that comes from a study that
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was on brown fat and metabolism. When it comes to
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mental health, we don't have any sort of numbers like
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this yet.
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That makes sense. So if you're going to If you
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want to give it a go, be careful. What are
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we looking at next, Michelle?
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Yes. Get ready, Wendy. We are going to be looking
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into gratitude journaling.
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I'm so skeptical of this, I have to say. Just
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give it a shot. We'll see. I'm ready.
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Hey, it's Wendy from Science Versus, and I want to
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tell you about a podcast that I love, Science Friday.
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00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.019
They cover all sorts of amazing things in the weird
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00:16:27.059 --> 00:16:31.090
and wonderful world of science, from how concussions affect our
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00:16:31.149 --> 00:16:34.210
brain to the inner secrets of a snake with a
319
00:16:34.309 --> 00:16:36.830
spider on its tail. It's a lot of news that
320
00:16:36.889 --> 00:16:39.309
you can use and some that you can't, but you're
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00:16:39.330 --> 00:16:40.190
going to love anyway.
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00:16:40.429 --> 00:16:43.600
It's hosted by Ira Flato and Flora Lichtman.
323
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.460
Who is an old friend of the show and loves
324
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.159
a pun as much as we do. Science Friday is
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00:16:49.220 --> 00:16:51.799
on every day wherever you get your podcasts.
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00:16:58.549 --> 00:16:59.029
Welcome back.
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00:16:59.409 --> 00:17:01.370
Today on the show, we are looking into the science
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of self-care. So far, Michelle Dang, our producer, has told
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us about the science of ice baths, which although they
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feel nice for me, the science is pretty.
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Yes.
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And next up, we're looking at gratitude journaling.
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My biggest problem with journaling is why aren't we calling
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it writing a diary?
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I had this whole theory that like.
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The bro, bro fluences of the world didn't want to
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say they wrote a diary because it sounds like something
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a 13-year-old girl does.
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So they were like, I journal, I journal. It's the
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same thing for all those, whether you put a little
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lock on it or not.
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Okay, well, I guess there is a bit of a
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difference because you can write a diary about any old thing,
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like the soggy muffin you had for breakfast or adorable
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dog that you saw in the park, Wendy. Okay, maybe
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that wasn't for you. But that's not the type of
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journaling the internet is really buzzing about right now. There's
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a bunch of hoopla over this particular kind of journaling.
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It's called gratitude journaling. And it's where you really focus
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on the things that you're grateful for.
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Okay.
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Yeah, so Joel Wong, a psychologist from Indiana University, Bloomington,
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told me that a big thing was gratituding.
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That's not a verb. I'll give you journaling. You can't
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have gratituding.
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No, give me gratituding, please.
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Okay, fine.
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When you're writing these gratitude journals, Joel told me that
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the first thing you think about is what he calls
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the three A's. So awareness.
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Oh yeah, this thing is good.
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And the second one.
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There's appreciation, which is that you deepen your valuing of
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that goodness. It's like, oh yeah, what is it good?
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What's good about it?
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And finally, there's attribution. So who did this good thing
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for me?
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Aha.
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So instead of saying I.
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Appreciate this coffee that I'm drinking you say I appreciate
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the person who made this coffee is that right yes
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you got this okay so does all this awareness appreciation
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and attribution gonna make us happier that's the claim right
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that all this like gratitude I was just about to
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say gratituding gratitude generally is gonna make us happier.
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Does it so to find this out Several years ago,
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Joel did this study on gratitude letter writing. They looked
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at a group of people who were seeking therapy, and
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they mostly had like a mix of anxiety and depression.
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Okay.
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So Joel split these folks into different groups. Like in
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one group, they had them do three sessions of gratitude
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letter writing. Basically, writing a letter to someone they haven't
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properly thanked and telling them specific things that person has
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done for them and how it made them feel. Another
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group was a control where they didn't have them do
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any writing at all.
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Okay. And so what did they find? Did it help?
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Yes, actually. The gratitude letters did help. At the start,
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they had evaluated everyone on this scale that's used to
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measure depression. And after a month, the gratitude letter writers
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were doing better than the other people in the study.
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Those who were in the gratitude condition had slightly better
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mental health compared to the others. And the interesting thing
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was that the effect grew even slightly larger at three months.
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00:20:32.140 --> 00:20:32.380
Yeah.
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When they checked in three months later... they saw that
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the effect was still there and had even grown a
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00:20:38.099 --> 00:20:38.500
little bit.
400
00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:39.579
Really?
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That feels alarming from just three sessions of gratitude.
402
00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:45.900
What?
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00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:50.210
Yeah. I mean, not every study finds this. Others see
404
00:20:50.230 --> 00:20:53.250
the effects fade in a couple of weeks. But there
405
00:20:53.349 --> 00:20:55.589
is one study that found it can last up to
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six months. And a recent meta-analysis looked at around 25
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studies on gratitude writing. and says the evidence here suggests
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that writing messages of gratitude or gratitude journaling can increase happiness,
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at least temporarily.
410
00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:12.119
Huh.
411
00:21:13.819 --> 00:21:14.200
Wow.
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00:21:14.420 --> 00:21:16.519
Okay. So how does it work?
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Ooh, yes.
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One of the more interesting findings was answering the question, why?
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Joel, a man after my own heart.
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Why?
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00:21:25.569 --> 00:21:25.869
Why?
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00:21:25.880 --> 00:21:28.890
Yes. He's done.
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00:21:29.670 --> 00:21:34.190
one of the few studies to tackle this. So the
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00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:36.119
one thing I haven't told you yet is that there
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00:21:36.150 --> 00:21:40.400
was this other arm in the study that just did
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00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:44.059
expressive writing. Kind of like just writing a diary.
423
00:21:44.180 --> 00:21:44.480
Okay.
424
00:21:44.500 --> 00:21:47.980
So the soggy muffins and cute little.
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00:21:47.819 --> 00:21:48.759
Dogs, whatever.
426
00:21:49.099 --> 00:21:52.720
Well, they were asked specifically to write about stressful experiences
427
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:56.779
and it didn't work as well as gratitude letter writing. Oh, okay.
428
00:21:57.539 --> 00:21:57.740
Okay.
429
00:21:59.099 --> 00:22:01.769
So he looked for clues as to why the gratitude
430
00:22:01.809 --> 00:22:05.009
journaling might have worked better. And he did this by
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digging into the kinds of emotional words that people were writing.
432
00:22:09.170 --> 00:22:12.049
They used computers to tally up the percentage of positive
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00:22:12.089 --> 00:22:16.150
words people wrote, like love and happy, versus the negative
434
00:22:16.190 --> 00:22:21.180
words like sad and angry. And what they found was
435
00:22:21.220 --> 00:22:24.640
that the gratitude group, it wasn't that they were writing
436
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:30.160
more positive words. it's actually that they wrote less negative words.
437
00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:35.799
So it's almost like the gratitude was shifting. I mean,
438
00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:39.380
it's a little bit speculatory, but it's almost like the
439
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:44.819
gratitude letter writing was shifting people's attention away from the negative.
440
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And of course, in expressive writing condition, they were delving
441
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into the negative emotions. And that's not what I would
442
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:55.240
have expected. I thought it would be like, you know,
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00:22:55.299 --> 00:22:57.680
gratitude would boost the positive.
444
00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:06.299
So they were less negative, not more positive. Yes.
445
00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:10.039
So that's the crux here. It's like maybe what's making
446
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:14.079
you happier is not trying to focus on being happy,
447
00:23:14.559 --> 00:23:17.380
but actually being less negative.
448
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:18.819
Oh, interesting.
449
00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:23.369
It's also linked with being more empathetic. And studies have
450
00:23:23.450 --> 00:23:27.569
shown it can change your relationships with people, for example.
451
00:23:27.589 --> 00:23:30.250
It sort of makes you less of a jerk.
452
00:23:31.630 --> 00:23:31.950
I see.
453
00:23:32.329 --> 00:23:35.170
In plain words. Yes.
454
00:23:36.130 --> 00:23:39.309
One study found that people who are practicing gratitude journaling,
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00:23:39.589 --> 00:23:41.690
they were less of a jerk at work.
456
00:23:42.130 --> 00:23:44.390
What? How did they know that?
457
00:23:45.579 --> 00:23:48.720
So Joel's talking about a study that got 200 people
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from one company to gratitude journal for 10 days. And
459
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then they asked co-workers to evaluate their jerkness by answering
460
00:23:58.579 --> 00:24:01.599
survey questions like, how often in the last two weeks
461
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:06.569
has your co-worker criticized another co-worker? And how often has
462
00:24:06.609 --> 00:24:09.029
your co-worker shut others out of the conversation?
463
00:24:09.049 --> 00:24:10.910
Right, that's jerky behavior.
464
00:24:11.309 --> 00:24:14.970
Then, yeah, they looked at what these co-workers had rated them.
465
00:24:15.430 --> 00:24:19.910
And ta-da! Gratituding had reduced jerkiness.
466
00:24:20.529 --> 00:24:24.410
What's fascinating is that research has also shown that gratitude
467
00:24:24.470 --> 00:24:30.170
extends beyond your original benefactor to you want to do
468
00:24:30.230 --> 00:24:31.930
something good for other people too.
469
00:24:32.980 --> 00:24:38.279
So once you open your world to the cheesiness of gratitude,
470
00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:43.619
you become more empathetic and less negative, right?
471
00:24:44.259 --> 00:24:44.480
Yes.
472
00:24:44.880 --> 00:24:47.319
And Joel says even spending just a little bit of
473
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time each day thinking about what you're grateful for can
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help too. So I thought maybe we should give this
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00:24:54.859 --> 00:24:55.299
all a shot.
476
00:24:56.759 --> 00:24:59.440
Wait, you want us to write a gratitude journal? Yes.
477
00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:01.279
But I think we should take kind of like the
478
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:03.640
bigger dose and write a gratitude letter.
479
00:25:03.660 --> 00:25:04.859
Uh-huh.
480
00:25:05.900 --> 00:25:07.700
I mean, I've just heard the science. I should be
481
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:08.589
excited about this.
482
00:25:09.009 --> 00:25:11.990
You've got to do it for basically 20 minutes at
483
00:25:12.029 --> 00:25:15.690
a time. And write to someone that you feel like
484
00:25:15.710 --> 00:25:16.819
you haven't thanked enough.
485
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:18.480
Like now? Like right now?
486
00:25:19.099 --> 00:25:19.359
Yes.
487
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:22.579
And then make a little voice memo about how you feel.
488
00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:23.660
Okay?
489
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:25.680
So see you in 20 minutes.
490
00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:31.059
Okay. Let's start.
491
00:25:31.779 --> 00:25:35.589
This first one is to my mom. We'll start simple.
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00:25:36.190 --> 00:25:44.950
Thank you for all the times you've Macaroni and meatballs.
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00:25:45.390 --> 00:25:49.369
Dear mom, thank you for everything.
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00:25:49.390 --> 00:25:51.309
It's too cliche.
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00:25:51.750 --> 00:25:57.269
Thank you for teaching me not to care what strangers
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think of me.
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00:25:58.299 --> 00:26:02.319
The pho that you cook is to die for.
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00:26:02.339 --> 00:26:07.720
Making me know that I am loved.
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00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:15.759
For indulging in Costco pastries with me. And always being
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00:26:15.819 --> 00:26:18.559
down for ice cream.
501
00:26:19.000 --> 00:26:20.619
Gratitude, liver, done.
502
00:26:21.819 --> 00:26:24.319
I think it did put me in a good mood.
503
00:26:24.339 --> 00:26:27.869
It really distracted me from the things I was stressing
504
00:26:27.950 --> 00:26:32.730
out about. Made me feel like I am ready or
505
00:26:32.769 --> 00:26:36.329
want to do more for her. I think just going
506
00:26:36.430 --> 00:26:37.529
through all the.
507
00:26:39.230 --> 00:26:40.509
Lovely things that.
508
00:26:42.750 --> 00:26:47.609
Someone has done for me just makes the work stuff
509
00:26:47.990 --> 00:26:50.269
not matter that much.
510
00:26:51.890 --> 00:26:52.849
And I feel better.
511
00:26:54.910 --> 00:26:55.150
Okay.
512
00:26:55.490 --> 00:26:56.019
Hey, Michelle.
513
00:26:56.450 --> 00:26:57.480
Hey, welcome back.
514
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:00.480
Thank you. Um, isn't that my line?
515
00:27:01.319 --> 00:27:01.960
Yes, that was.
516
00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:03.960
All right.
517
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:07.650
All right. So you got me a gratitude journals. Okay,
518
00:27:07.670 --> 00:27:08.190
what's next?
519
00:27:08.309 --> 00:27:10.349
If you're about to ask me to like light some
520
00:27:10.390 --> 00:27:13.029
candles and have a manicure, like this, we are done.
521
00:27:13.150 --> 00:27:14.970
If manicuring... Don't worry, don't worry.
522
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.730
Okay, so next we're going to jump into, you know,
523
00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:19.700
our last hack of the day.
524
00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:20.079
Okay.
525
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:23.640
And I thought it was interesting when putting together this
526
00:27:23.700 --> 00:27:28.099
episode thinking about the term self-care. You know, you usually
527
00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:33.059
think about stepping away, having some time to yourself, being
528
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:33.859
on your own.
529
00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:35.380
Self-care, yes.
530
00:27:35.990 --> 00:27:38.789
But one thing that scientists are looking at is how
531
00:27:38.829 --> 00:27:41.670
much it can actually matter for us to be interacting
532
00:27:41.710 --> 00:27:46.750
with other people for our well-being. And, you know, there's
533
00:27:46.950 --> 00:27:49.259
all this talk that we're also in some kind of
534
00:27:49.539 --> 00:27:52.720
loneliness epidemic, particularly in the U.S.
535
00:27:52.980 --> 00:27:53.440
The U.S.
536
00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:58.339
Surgeon General just this year has kind of raised this alarm.
537
00:27:58.700 --> 00:28:02.440
So to learn more about loneliness and what we can
538
00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:06.509
do about it for self-care, I talked to Juliana Schroeder.
539
00:28:07.029 --> 00:28:11.049
She's a behavioral scientist from the Berkeley Haas School of Business.
540
00:28:11.730 --> 00:28:14.589
And she studies how people interact and perceive each other.
541
00:28:15.410 --> 00:28:18.349
And part of her interest in loneliness comes from this
542
00:28:18.809 --> 00:28:20.349
bummer of a time in her own life.
543
00:28:20.890 --> 00:28:24.829
I felt like just unbearably lonely. I would be commuting
544
00:28:24.890 --> 00:28:26.730
into work. Like I felt as though I was just
545
00:28:26.849 --> 00:28:29.259
floating outside the train, looking through the window at myself.
546
00:28:30.099 --> 00:28:33.039
So Juliana told me that in the U.S., this loneliness
547
00:28:33.079 --> 00:28:36.670
stuff is a real problem. Like one survey found around
548
00:28:36.690 --> 00:28:41.130
a third of U.S. adults said they're experiencing loneliness almost
549
00:28:41.789 --> 00:28:42.269
all the time.
550
00:28:42.289 --> 00:28:43.730
Oh, wow.
551
00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:48.559
And in that survey, over half of young adults and
552
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:53.740
even mothers with young children reported, quote, miserable degrees of loneliness.
553
00:28:54.019 --> 00:28:56.799
Miserable degrees of loneliness. They said that in the report.
554
00:28:57.099 --> 00:28:57.900
Yeah, yeah.
555
00:28:58.380 --> 00:29:00.740
And there's a lot of research that has shown that
556
00:29:00.869 --> 00:29:05.029
loneliness is associated not just with really bad mental health issues,
557
00:29:05.109 --> 00:29:07.589
but also with physical health concerns.
558
00:29:08.130 --> 00:29:11.529
So yeah, there is this 2015 meta-analysis that gets pointed
559
00:29:11.569 --> 00:29:14.930
to a lot that found that loneliness is associated with
560
00:29:15.019 --> 00:29:19.400
dying earlier. And some of that might be because you
561
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.799
don't have someone around to call a doctor, for example.
562
00:29:23.099 --> 00:29:26.900
You just don't have a social support network. But there's
563
00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:30.039
also just something about loneliness that is bad for our
564
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:34.470
physical health and, of course, mental health. So, you know,
565
00:29:34.549 --> 00:29:36.069
how can we fix that?
566
00:29:36.450 --> 00:29:36.809
Right.
567
00:29:36.950 --> 00:29:39.970
Can self-care or social care?
568
00:29:41.049 --> 00:29:41.359
Do it?
569
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.079
Yeah, it's a great question because in the research, we
570
00:29:45.140 --> 00:29:48.619
know that your friends and family are really important. Like,
571
00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:52.019
studies find that people who frequently hang out with friends
572
00:29:52.059 --> 00:29:54.000
and family report better mental health.
573
00:29:54.140 --> 00:29:55.579
Okay. Okay.
574
00:29:55.960 --> 00:29:59.890
But what if, like, your you don't get along with
575
00:29:59.910 --> 00:30:02.809
your family and you don't have a lot of friends,
576
00:30:03.150 --> 00:30:03.670
like then.
577
00:30:03.569 --> 00:30:05.089
What do you do? Yes.
578
00:30:05.369 --> 00:30:10.269
So Juliana was like, hey, what about strangers? They're all
579
00:30:10.309 --> 00:30:13.650
around us. What would happen if we just started talking
580
00:30:13.690 --> 00:30:19.049
to these strangers that we're surrounded by? So back in 2010,
581
00:30:19.049 --> 00:30:22.950
Juliana started doing experience to study just this. She kind
582
00:30:22.990 --> 00:30:25.190
of borrowed from her own life and set up these
583
00:30:25.210 --> 00:30:28.730
studies on trains. So in one study, they kind of
584
00:30:28.829 --> 00:30:32.880
scoped out a train station in Chicago and went up
585
00:30:32.910 --> 00:30:36.319
to people who were on their own. They recruited them
586
00:30:36.339 --> 00:30:37.720
for the study and.
587
00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:42.079
We randomly assigned people to connect with a stranger.
588
00:30:42.099 --> 00:30:42.819
Oh, wow.
589
00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:45.140
So they just took people on the train station and said, hey,
590
00:30:45.180 --> 00:30:46.549
you want to be involved in a study?
591
00:30:46.569 --> 00:30:48.849
Go talk to that other person.
592
00:30:49.210 --> 00:30:51.579
So they didn't pair them up with people... They just
593
00:30:51.619 --> 00:30:54.740
set them off with a specific set of instructions, actually.
594
00:30:54.769 --> 00:30:57.740
So they told them to find out something interesting about
595
00:30:57.789 --> 00:31:01.349
the stranger and to also tell them something about themselves
596
00:31:02.269 --> 00:31:06.150
and told them that the longer the conversation, the better.
597
00:31:07.490 --> 00:31:10.210
Is this like your worst nightmare, Michelle?
598
00:31:10.769 --> 00:31:13.369
I would probably reject participating in the study.
599
00:31:14.549 --> 00:31:17.410
Sorry, I'm on my way. Gotta go. Yes.
600
00:31:17.750 --> 00:31:22.970
Anyway, they also gave everyone an envelope. with a post-experiment
601
00:31:23.019 --> 00:31:27.099
survey to take with them. Here's what they found. For
602
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:30.319
the group that talked to the randos on the train,
603
00:31:31.000 --> 00:31:35.920
they ended up chatting for about 14 minutes on average.
604
00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:39.990
People were reporting that they had a much more pleasant commute.
605
00:31:40.049 --> 00:31:42.789
It brought them more happiness, less sadness to have that
606
00:31:42.829 --> 00:31:44.089
conversation with a stranger.
607
00:31:44.109 --> 00:31:44.180
Huh.
608
00:31:45.829 --> 00:31:48.170
That's very delightful.
609
00:31:48.589 --> 00:31:48.970
Yeah.
610
00:31:49.250 --> 00:31:49.509
Yeah.
611
00:31:49.630 --> 00:31:53.220
It felt good. They felt better than people in Juliana's
612
00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:56.640
study who weren't chatty sallies, you know, just sat in silence.
613
00:31:57.319 --> 00:31:59.960
And this is kind of the opposite of what we expect.
614
00:32:00.710 --> 00:32:06.130
People imagine it would totally suck, me included. But for
615
00:32:06.150 --> 00:32:08.789
the people who actually went out and tried this, this
616
00:32:09.329 --> 00:32:10.089
isn't what happened.
617
00:32:10.769 --> 00:32:13.309
And so how much better did people feel?
618
00:32:13.430 --> 00:32:16.339
I can't imagine that this is some like blockbuster drug
619
00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:19.519
that Juliana has just created talking to strangers.
620
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:22.960
Yeah. I asked Juliana how strong the results of these
621
00:32:22.980 --> 00:32:26.559
studies are. And it's not huge. Like in the studies,
622
00:32:26.619 --> 00:32:29.410
it's a small to medium effect. But you should know
623
00:32:29.450 --> 00:32:34.450
that Juliana and other researchers have found similar results in
624
00:32:34.470 --> 00:32:38.529
different places. Like they've done these kind of studies on
625
00:32:38.589 --> 00:32:43.450
more trains, but also buses, coffee shops, waiting rooms.
626
00:32:44.410 --> 00:32:44.650
And they.
627
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:49.619
find that people feel good after these conversations, whether they're
628
00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:50.599
short or long.
629
00:32:51.059 --> 00:32:54.059
So does Juliana do this more often now that she's
630
00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:55.359
actually done the science on it?
631
00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:59.380
Yeah, actually, it wasn't until after the data came in
632
00:32:59.420 --> 00:33:00.869
that she started doing it herself.
633
00:33:01.289 --> 00:33:04.349
And then I said, okay, like now I'm convinced I'm
634
00:33:04.369 --> 00:33:07.190
going to try it, you know, and I'm still like
635
00:33:07.250 --> 00:33:09.750
kind of cautious, but I do, I push myself now,
636
00:33:09.829 --> 00:33:13.029
you know, every time I'm in a context, I'm thinking,
637
00:33:13.049 --> 00:33:16.460
you know, I'm kind of bored or this just isn't
638
00:33:16.500 --> 00:33:18.539
that enjoyable. I'm like, okay, you know what? This is
639
00:33:18.579 --> 00:33:22.359
a perfect time to try out the research and to
640
00:33:22.420 --> 00:33:23.680
try talking to someone.
641
00:33:23.700 --> 00:33:25.319
Okay.
642
00:33:25.740 --> 00:33:26.180
Okay.
643
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:31.329
So if we zoom out to everything that we've talked
644
00:33:31.390 --> 00:33:36.809
about today, jumping into cold water, writing gratitude journals, chatting
645
00:33:37.049 --> 00:33:42.500
to randos on the street, it's looking like All of
646
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.359
this stuff actually could help us out, give you a
647
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:51.000
little boost, a little mental boost on potentially a kind
648
00:33:51.019 --> 00:33:54.940
of crappy day or on a good day. Yeah, there
649
00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:57.990
is science on all of this self-care stuff that we
650
00:33:58.009 --> 00:33:58.730
can point to.
651
00:33:58.990 --> 00:34:00.910
Do you think there's anything you're going to keep doing?
652
00:34:00.930 --> 00:34:01.650
Yeah.
653
00:34:02.069 --> 00:34:06.710
Yeah, I actually do. I will be jumping into cold
654
00:34:06.750 --> 00:34:10.110
water more often. It will be something I think about
655
00:34:10.929 --> 00:34:14.820
when I'm stressed. and overwhelmed, even just a cold shower,
656
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:18.059
as I'm walking around in my day, I will be
657
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:21.719
thinking about little moments that I could be having with strangers.
658
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.110
Just little moments, just being mindful that like that can
659
00:34:25.130 --> 00:34:26.949
just be a little boost.
660
00:34:27.550 --> 00:34:28.510
So thanks, Michelle.
661
00:34:28.750 --> 00:34:29.050
Yeah.
662
00:34:29.190 --> 00:34:30.389
This has been great.
663
00:34:30.750 --> 00:34:31.769
Thank you, Wendy. Thanks.
664
00:34:33.269 --> 00:34:37.760
That's science versus. Oh, and Michelle. Michelle, you still there?
665
00:34:38.380 --> 00:34:38.559
Yes.
666
00:34:38.860 --> 00:34:39.019
Yes.
667
00:34:40.139 --> 00:34:41.880
How many citations in this week's episode?
668
00:34:42.019 --> 00:34:45.010
This week, we have 77 citations.
669
00:34:45.010 --> 00:34:46.449
77.
670
00:34:46.449 --> 00:34:48.650
And for people who don't know what we mean when
671
00:34:48.690 --> 00:34:52.230
we say we have all these citations, it means you
672
00:34:52.269 --> 00:34:56.389
could go and find a transcript of this podcast with
673
00:34:56.429 --> 00:34:59.519
links to all of the studies that Michelle has been
674
00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:00.179
talking about.
675
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:03.840
So Michelle, if people want to find this transcript, where
676
00:35:03.860 --> 00:35:04.300
should they go?
677
00:35:04.500 --> 00:35:05.960
Find them over in our show notes.
678
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:10.110
My brain is pretty fried.
679
00:35:10.969 --> 00:35:13.630
I'm just like a little overwhelmed.
680
00:35:14.829 --> 00:35:18.730
So I'm going to take a cold shower.
681
00:35:22.010 --> 00:35:27.289
Ready?
682
00:35:27.469 --> 00:35:27.670
Go.
683
00:35:29.530 --> 00:35:29.869
Okay.
684
00:35:30.170 --> 00:35:33.230
Oh, I'm.
685
00:35:35.389 --> 00:35:35.909
Back.
686
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:54.559
Okay okay but i am more of that i actually
687
00:35:54.679 --> 00:35:56.340
feel so much better.
688
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:05.579
Self-care oh my god am i about to become a
689
00:36:05.619 --> 00:36:07.719
self-care person.
690
00:36:08.969 --> 00:36:10.110
Who am i.
691
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:19.429
This episode was produced by Michelle Dang, with help from me,
692
00:36:19.590 --> 00:36:22.969
Wendy Zuckerman, Nick Delrose, Joel Werner, and Rose Rimler. We're
693
00:36:22.989 --> 00:36:26.730
edited by Blythe Terrell. Fact-checking by Carmen Dral. Mix and
694
00:36:26.769 --> 00:36:29.829
sound design by Bumi Hidaka. Music written by Bobby Lord,
695
00:36:29.949 --> 00:36:33.469
Bumi Hidaka, Emma Munger, Peter Leonard, and So Wiley. And
696
00:36:33.489 --> 00:36:35.860
thanks to everyone that we spoke to for this episode,
697
00:36:35.949 --> 00:36:39.940
especially Professor Megan Azad. Megan, thank you so much for
698
00:36:40.059 --> 00:36:43.559
telling us all about your self-care story. It was so
699
00:36:43.619 --> 00:36:46.989
helpful as we were building this episode. Also, thanks to
700
00:36:47.010 --> 00:36:50.320
the Zuckerman family and Joseph LaBelle Wilson. I'm Wendy Zuckerman.
701
00:36:50.750 --> 00:36:51.369
Talk to you next time.