Perspective Checks | Mausworn & Creative Habits with Cezar Capacle

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to another
episode of Perspective Checks, where I
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sit down with friends and folks from the
TTRPG community to talk about all the
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things we love about this shared hobby.
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Today, I am joined by one
of my favorite designers.
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You've heard me play multiple of his
games on this podcast, and he is a
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creator who is so supportive of others
online, a real shining example of someone
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who I think is doing things really
well in the TTRPG scene, indie scene.
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Cezar Capacle, welcome and
thank you so much for coming on.
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Hey, thanks for having me.
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What a nice introduction that I was.
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Ah.
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How did I, how did I do
with the pronunciation?
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I, uh
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…
You nailed it.
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Did I?
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Okay.
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All
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right.
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Honestly- Okay … honestly,
excellent- All right
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…
excellent job there.
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All right.
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And, uh, and before we start, I'm gonna
throw a real curve ball right away.
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Uh, have you been watching the World Cup?
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Are you, are you a fan?
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Yeah.
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I, I do care about soccer once every four
years, which is- Right … the World Cup.
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Yeah, I've been following.
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It's, uh, uh, although the time zone's a
problem for me because now I'm in Madeira
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Island, so games are going very late now.
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But- Oh, yeah
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I'm doing my best to try and
follow everything that I can, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Uh, it's so funny.
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Here in the US, we're
not a big soccer country.
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I mean, some people are.
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We're, it's getting there, but, um,
it's funny, I, I love watching the
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World Cup because I watch Premier League
soccer a lot, and I get to see, like,
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players I get to watch, like, every
weekend playing for their national
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teams and it feels so different.
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It feels so much more like, I
don't know, I don't wanna say
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important, but it, it's really funny.
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And I always find myself rooting
for, like, the underdog teams, and
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then people are like, "Oh yeah,
in the US." And I'm like, "Eh,
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eh." Never mind about them.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I have a similar feeling.
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I like to, to root, root for
South American teams and- Yeah
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African teams.
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So that's, uh- Yeah … that's my jam.
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And there's already been two, like, huge
upsets of, uh- Yeah … South, South
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American and African teams upsetting
European teams, which is wild, so.
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It was
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wild.
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Sorry.
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All right.
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Well, it's World Cup time.
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I feel like I just bring it
up with everybody lately, so.
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Of
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course, yes.
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Um-
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Historical moment.
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Yeah.
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It, it really is.
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And it, it can be really exciting for,
you know, some teams and some countries
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who only get to play on the stage,
you know, like, as a national team.
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It's, it's, it-
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It's a celebration of nations.
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I think it's-
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Yeah
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…
it's beautiful in a way.
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All right.
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So, uh, before we get into talking about
the games we are gonna talk about today,
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not the, not the international sport
of soccer, I always open interviews
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with the same three questions.
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The first one is the, the
boring expected one, which is
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how'd you get started in this?
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So Cezar, how long have you been
playing TTRPGs or been around the hobby?
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Whoosh.
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That's how I reveal my age.
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Yeah.
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It's been 30 years that I've
been playing- Wow … RPGs, yeah.
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I-
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Okay.
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I'm 43, man.
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So I, I'll… I got started
with it when I was 12 to 13.
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A friend of mine just, uh, asked
me to come along to a, a, an
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acquaintance's house, said, "Hey,
we're playing a sort of a board game.
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It's like a fantasy board game
of sorts." And I said, "Okay.
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Sure.
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Let's do it." And I got there.
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It was the First Quest starter
box set, which was AD&D second
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edition translated- Oh, yeah
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to Portuguese.
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And they had all, uh, pre-made
characters and cardboard sheets
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with, with art and everything.
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And, uh, notably they had a, uh,
CD that had narrated parts of the
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adventure module that would come
with this- Mm … this box set.
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So they would play, like, a track
of the CD with the characters,
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uh, like in character speaking as
they delved through the dungeon
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with sound effects and everything.
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Then it jumped to the action.
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The DM would jump in, and we
would play our characters,
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and we go to the next section.
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There was another track on the CD.
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And this was such an immerse- I was hooked
from the very beginning, that I said-
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Wow … "Okay, that thing that I do alone
in my house daydreaming about- Right
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fantasy heroes, that can be
an actual game." So yeah.
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Yes.
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I, I would love to say that
I never stopped since then,
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but that's not actually true.
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I had a huge gap when I went to college
because I couldn't find a group.
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And- Mm-hmm … again, moving out of
the city and finding a new place, and I
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had different priorities at the moment,
so it was like a five to six-year gap.
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Mm-hmm.
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And then I got back to it after
that, and then Never left.
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Yeah.
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That's such a cool first
experience, though.
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And I, you know, I've actually seen a
few, I wanna say recent games where, like,
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audio is a big part of the experience.
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Like, it's- Mm-hmm … an included thing.
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But I love that even back then it was
happening, and it was somebody's idea
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to be like, "Put this on a CD," and,
like, basically give them fiction
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leading up to the moments where now
you take over and you have to roll.
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Oh, yeah.
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I'm surprised that hasn't, that that n-
wasn't, like, a more consistent thing.
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'Cause that's, that's really clever.
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I like that.
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I know, right?
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It's, it feels like it was a
very expensive, uh, production.
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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'
Cause, well, they translated
the CD even, so they had to hire
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voice actors and everything.
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The acting was decent for 1994.
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And it, it would really get to you,
because they would say, like, start the
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reaction of the characters, uh, about the
monsters they were about to face, and you
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had that sense of anticipation that, "Oh
my God, what's happening right now?" Yeah.
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It
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was-
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Ah, it was so good.
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And, but it was also the first time that
I encountered, I think, the first spark
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that led me to game design, because there
was a big disconnect between what the
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art and the- Audio was selling- Mm-hmm
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and what the actual experience of playing
the game and the r- the, the rules-
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AD&D rules, yeah.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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I said, "Okay, THAC0
and now, uh," then it-
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Yeah
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…
would slow down to a drag.
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And I said, "Okay." Um, the memories I
have about the sessions are always better
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than the sessions themselves because-
Were … we edit out in our minds- Yeah
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all the sluggishness of the things, right?
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So yeah.
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Absolutely.
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And, uh, so I had this fond memory of
sitting around a table listening to
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these things and going through the, the
experience of being a fantasy character.
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Not so much of dealing with AD&D rules.
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So, uh, yeah.
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Yeah.
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That's funny.
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Uh, but that also makes a ton of sense.
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I agree.
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I think, uh, setting the expectation,
like, a- art is so important to
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being like, "This is what you're
gonna get." And then you kind of
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need… And we'll talk about this.
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This is gonna probably be a big
topic of ours, is you, you need the
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mechanics of your game to match that
experience you're trying to provide, so.
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Yeah, precisely.
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Exactly.
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So that's where you started.
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Uh, the second question we
always ask everyone is, uh, what
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have you been playing lately?
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Or if you want, you can talk about what
you've been designing lately, but that's
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another topic we're gonna be diving into.
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Now, that's actually a perfect segue w-
into what I've been playing lately because
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I've been playing Everspark, which is- Yes
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my response to that weird disconnect
between- Yeah … the, what they
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sold as a, a, an experience and
then what they actually delivered.
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So Everspark, for those who don't
know, is my fantasy Heartbreaker.
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So it was an idea that I had that
I wanted to capture only the vibes,
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what we remember about those sessions.
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Uh, celebrate nat 20s a- and,
uh, suffer with nat, nat ones.
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Being a fantasy character, live that,
uh, class fantasy, and going into
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adventures and remove everything else.
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Yeah.
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Just keep the vibes and the D20.
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And it's funny because I'm, uh,
into session 50 of my- Wow … home
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campaign and, uh, it … With the
same group that actually sparked
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the creation of this very game.
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So short story.
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I, uh, have here a WhatsApp group chat
of, uh, expats, immigrants, and nomads
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that live here in Madeira Island.
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And they have, like, a big community
with separate chats for different topics.
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One of those is, uh,
board games and stuff.
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Mm-hmm.
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And one time someone said, um,
"Does anyone know how to play D&D?
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I feel like I want to play and
everything." I said, "Oh, my God.
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Okay."
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Yeah.
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This is my cue, right?
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Uh- Yeah, yeah.
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Uh, it took me two weeks to, to actually
muster the courage to say something.
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But in these two weeks, I actually
devised the core rules for Everspark.
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And I said- Oh,
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nice
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…
I noticed that those people were
all beginners, and I, I had this
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feeling that these people want the
experience of what they think D&D is.
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Yeah.
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They don't want to play D&D.
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They want what they see in actual
plays or, or what they hear about it.
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So what can I do to deliver that
instead of the confrontation- Drop three
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books in front
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of them … with 900-
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Yeah.
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900 pages.
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So I came up with that.
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I said, "Hey, guys.
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Oh, I have this thing here.
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Uh, wanna play?
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It's, uh, very, um, beginner-friendly
if you wanna hop in." And I had
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nine people interested, and, uh-
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Wow, nice
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…
uh, I introduced the rules.
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We got started.
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I thought it would be a one-shot so
people would get hooked and on with
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their lives, you know what I mean?
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But here we are, 50 sessions
later, with a system w- whose
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rules can fit on a A4 paper.
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Yeah.
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And, uh, people say sometimes,
"Well, minimalist rules don't tend to
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long-term campaigns." I beg to differ.
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We are strong on our campaign session.
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As long as you provide, uh, enough
hooks and things and agency for
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players, and things that are … They,
they are interested in exploring
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and- Mm-hmm
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…
learning and improving and
discovering, you're good.
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Yeah.
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The sto- exactly.
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I, I, I agree with that.
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I hear that a lot where it's like,
well, we can't play this, you know,
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rules light game for a long campaign.
244
00:10:06,465 --> 00:10:07,385
And it's like, sure you can.
245
00:10:07,386 --> 00:10:08,515
It's about the story,
you know what I mean?
246
00:10:08,865 --> 00:10:11,476
Are you playing a game to
watch your numbers go up?
247
00:10:11,505 --> 00:10:12,975
That's not the fun-
Mm-hmm … part of this game.
248
00:10:12,975 --> 00:10:13,495
Do you know what I mean?
249
00:10:13,495 --> 00:10:14,256
Like- Yeah.
250
00:10:14,265 --> 00:10:17,425
Yep … sure, getting f- like,
new abilities and, and new things
251
00:10:17,425 --> 00:10:21,415
is cool, but that doesn't have to
correlate to crunchier mechanics.
252
00:10:21,425 --> 00:10:24,715
That can just be a new thing which is
a story hook as much as it is an item.
253
00:10:25,005 --> 00:10:29,566
And if it is an item or it is something
that makes you more powerful, cool it,
254
00:10:29,566 --> 00:10:33,386
it's on the GM and it's on you to make
that interesting and not be something
255
00:10:33,386 --> 00:10:35,616
that just kind of ruins the fun of it.
256
00:10:35,616 --> 00:10:36,056
You know what I mean?
257
00:10:36,566 --> 00:10:37,176
Exactly.
258
00:10:37,336 --> 00:10:37,646
Yeah.
259
00:10:37,646 --> 00:10:38,676
It's the game ender, right?
260
00:10:38,676 --> 00:10:41,056
Like, bring a complication with
it and now all of a sudden it's
261
00:10:41,056 --> 00:10:43,136
not something you, you can just
solve every problem with, right?
262
00:10:43,736 --> 00:10:44,406
Exactly.
263
00:10:44,576 --> 00:10:47,775
And I think the system tends
to that because, uh, character
264
00:10:47,816 --> 00:10:52,115
development and evolution is made
story-wise, so you get a- Yeah
265
00:10:52,125 --> 00:10:53,916
spark with something
that you want to learn.
266
00:10:54,176 --> 00:10:58,586
So that actually pushes them to, "Okay,
I need to find a mentor or a book." Yes.
267
00:10:58,595 --> 00:11:01,716
"Oh, I need to investigate this
library. Oh, I got this item."
268
00:11:01,765 --> 00:11:03,005
Oh, you don't have any power.
269
00:11:03,026 --> 00:11:04,876
You have to find out what it does.
270
00:11:04,885 --> 00:11:05,195
So-
271
00:11:05,245 --> 00:11:05,635
Yeah
272
00:11:05,695 --> 00:11:07,226
…
this is all hooks.
273
00:11:07,256 --> 00:11:10,225
And now that characters have,
like, players have, like, five, six
274
00:11:10,225 --> 00:11:14,016
different sparks on their character
sheets, I don't need to do anything.
275
00:11:14,026 --> 00:11:16,856
They will push the- Right … story
forward because they want to
276
00:11:16,856 --> 00:11:18,285
see those things completed.
277
00:11:18,285 --> 00:11:19,636
And so my job is done.
278
00:11:19,855 --> 00:11:20,345
Yeah.
279
00:11:20,346 --> 00:11:20,536
Right.
280
00:11:20,536 --> 00:11:23,135
You just have to set a scene and they
go like, "Okay, well, I want, I want to
281
00:11:23,135 --> 00:11:25,756
focus on this spark." Uh, they ask you
a question and all of a sudden you're
282
00:11:25,756 --> 00:11:29,975
like, "Okay, I can find a way to give
you something for that here," you know?
283
00:11:30,006 --> 00:11:30,775
Uh, that's great.
284
00:11:31,155 --> 00:11:31,385
Yeah.
285
00:11:31,385 --> 00:11:32,495
It's been, it's been great.
286
00:11:32,935 --> 00:11:33,496
That's awesome.
287
00:11:33,535 --> 00:11:34,315
And 50 sessions.
288
00:11:34,326 --> 00:11:35,025
Congrats, that's awesome.
289
00:11:35,076 --> 00:11:35,835
That's really cool.
290
00:11:36,366 --> 00:11:36,605
It is.
291
00:11:36,625 --> 00:11:36,975
Uh,
292
00:11:37,535 --> 00:11:38,105
all right.
293
00:11:38,146 --> 00:11:42,566
Well, uh, the third question is, uh,
a very smooth and not at all, uh,
294
00:11:42,576 --> 00:11:46,185
ham-fisted segue of just the question,
what are we talking about today?
295
00:11:46,525 --> 00:11:50,595
Well, we're talking about little mice-
296
00:11:51,345 --> 00:11:55,655
and the ad- the ve- adventures of the
brain that carries all those ideas.
297
00:11:56,215 --> 00:11:57,306
I, I love it.
298
00:11:57,306 --> 00:11:58,885
I cannot wait to talk about this.
299
00:11:59,695 --> 00:12:02,115
But f- we, and we can … I, we can tease.
300
00:12:02,186 --> 00:12:04,776
Uh, I do have a few questions
before we dive into the,
301
00:12:04,796 --> 00:12:06,455
the, the, those little mice.
302
00:12:06,726 --> 00:12:06,745
Mm-hmm.
303
00:12:06,756 --> 00:12:10,025
But we're gonna be talking about
your upcoming game, Mouseborn.
304
00:12:10,476 --> 00:12:11,406
That's correct.
305
00:12:11,465 --> 00:12:11,615
Yes.
306
00:12:11,625 --> 00:12:16,345
Which, I mean, I fee- I feel
personally targeted by this art.
307
00:12:16,345 --> 00:12:22,135
I think, I'm pretty sure you were like,
"What does Rainy want?" "Specifically."
308
00:12:22,146 --> 00:12:23,125
Like line and hook.
309
00:12:23,305 --> 00:12:23,466
Line and
310
00:12:23,466 --> 00:12:23,485
hook.
311
00:12:23,485 --> 00:12:23,775
Yeah, yeah.
312
00:12:23,775 --> 00:12:23,995
Right.
313
00:12:23,995 --> 00:12:24,335
Exactly.
314
00:12:25,046 --> 00:12:29,026
Um, so we can … W- I mean, if
you wanna give, like, the tagline
315
00:12:29,026 --> 00:12:31,105
for Mouseborn, and we can … Or,
you know, like a- Yeah, yeah
316
00:12:31,105 --> 00:12:31,496
a teaser
317
00:12:32,630 --> 00:12:36,089
The, the teaser that I've been
using everywhere is what if
318
00:12:36,239 --> 00:12:38,579
Mouse Ritter but Iron Sword?
319
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:39,239
Yeah.
320
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:43,620
So, uh, uh, which is trying
to make two games that I love
321
00:12:43,670 --> 00:12:45,170
but they're very different-
322
00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:45,909
They are
323
00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:47,390
…
kiss and see what comes
324
00:12:48,599 --> 00:12:48,800
Yeah
325
00:12:48,949 --> 00:12:50,060
…
of this interaction.
326
00:12:50,709 --> 00:12:51,410
Two toys, right?
327
00:12:51,410 --> 00:12:51,716
Yeah, just like
328
00:12:51,716 --> 00:12:52,510
playing- Yeah, now kiss … yeah
329
00:12:52,510 --> 00:12:55,339
like smushing figurines together.
330
00:12:55,349 --> 00:13:01,699
It's, yeah, it's, uh, it's mice
adventure games with, uh, OSR
331
00:13:01,699 --> 00:13:08,540
sensibilities through the framework of
a very story-forward narrative game.
332
00:13:08,549 --> 00:13:09,479
So, fun.
333
00:13:09,479 --> 00:13:09,929
Yeah.
334
00:13:10,180 --> 00:13:10,209
Yes.
335
00:13:10,399 --> 00:13:11,489
Oh, I cannot wait.
336
00:13:11,509 --> 00:13:12,639
I, I can't wait for the game.
337
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:13,719
I can't wait to talk about it.
338
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,869
But before we get there, I almost want
to, like, ramp up to it with some,
339
00:13:16,869 --> 00:13:21,130
like, theory and just some questions
about your, your history as a designer.
340
00:13:21,410 --> 00:13:24,639
Um, 'cause you are a
prolific designer, Cezar.
341
00:13:24,889 --> 00:13:25,099
Yeah.
342
00:13:25,099 --> 00:13:26,429
You've made a lot of games.
343
00:13:26,709 --> 00:13:29,729
And I feel like despite that, you
know, like sometimes you see people
344
00:13:29,729 --> 00:13:32,229
and they're like, "I've made another
game. I've made another game," and
345
00:13:32,229 --> 00:13:35,240
they have, they almost have like
a You know, and you're one person.
346
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,090
But, like, Free League
has a house system, right?
347
00:13:37,140 --> 00:13:38,970
And they're like, "I'm gonna put--
We're gonna put another game out.
348
00:13:39,010 --> 00:13:42,030
We're gonna use this, your Zero Engine,
right? And it's gonna be a totally
349
00:13:42,030 --> 00:13:44,450
different genre, but it's gonna use the
same dice mechanics slightly altered."
350
00:13:44,989 --> 00:13:50,589
You hit a lot of genres, and you
change up your mechanics all the time.
351
00:13:50,819 --> 00:13:55,609
So I have a few questions before we
dive into how Mouseborn originated and,
352
00:13:55,610 --> 00:13:56,639
and what you've been doing with it.
353
00:13:56,979 --> 00:14:00,389
But how often does a new
idea come into your head?
354
00:14:01,979 --> 00:14:04,119
And how do you o-
organize all those ideas?
355
00:14:04,619 --> 00:14:06,050
Uh, a few times a day.
356
00:14:07,510 --> 00:14:07,980
Yeah.
357
00:14:08,059 --> 00:14:11,610
I, uh, I have a backlog of, uh, systems.
358
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,049
I, I wouldn't call them systems, more
like dice tricks that- Yeah … would
359
00:14:16,249 --> 00:14:21,439
eventually become a system that I want
to explore, and I just keep notes of
360
00:14:21,489 --> 00:14:23,600
everything that I revisit sometimes.
361
00:14:23,859 --> 00:14:28,959
But more importantly, what I do with them
is just keep them floating in my mind.
362
00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:29,619
You know what I mean?
363
00:14:30,069 --> 00:14:36,600
So I have this thing that inspiration
comes in different forms, and I keep those
364
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:41,629
things as a hadron collider, like, uh,
uh, I call it an idea collider of things.
365
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:42,040
Yeah.
366
00:14:42,110 --> 00:14:48,210
Sometimes I see a, a piece of art that is
very inspiring, and then six months later
367
00:14:48,210 --> 00:14:50,889
I have an idea for a, a dice mechanic.
368
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,240
Those things are floating,
and sometimes they encounter
369
00:14:55,250 --> 00:14:56,969
themselves and I say, "Oh, okay.
370
00:14:57,759 --> 00:14:58,279
Wait a minute.
371
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,009
There's something there that I just,
just-" Yeah … "I need, I want to
372
00:15:02,009 --> 00:15:08,480
explore." And I've been doing this full
time for almost five years now, and
373
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,449
I have more than 40 games published.
374
00:15:10,460 --> 00:15:13,120
So it's been working well so far.
375
00:15:13,299 --> 00:15:13,539
Yeah.
376
00:15:13,649 --> 00:15:18,109
This chaotic experiment of just leaving
things in the back of your mind, and
377
00:15:18,119 --> 00:15:23,009
sometimes they find themselves into-
Yeah … your, your pages somehow.
378
00:15:23,509 --> 00:15:23,679
I
379
00:15:23,679 --> 00:15:23,929
love- So yeah, that's-
380
00:15:23,929 --> 00:15:24,740
I love that.
381
00:15:25,449 --> 00:15:25,659
The
382
00:15:25,659 --> 00:15:25,909
idea
383
00:15:26,019 --> 00:15:28,189
of- That's pretty much my idea
of, uh, floating things around.
384
00:15:28,189 --> 00:15:28,419
Yeah.
385
00:15:28,670 --> 00:15:28,990
Yeah.
386
00:15:28,990 --> 00:15:31,549
I love the idea of just, like,
they all occupy the same space and
387
00:15:31,549 --> 00:15:32,909
they're all just constantly swirling.
388
00:15:32,909 --> 00:15:35,579
They might be in the front of your mind,
the back of your mind at any given time.
389
00:15:35,839 --> 00:15:39,929
But again, sometimes those two
things kiss, if you will, and you
390
00:15:39,929 --> 00:15:41,249
just kind of go, "Oh, wait." Yep.
391
00:15:41,249 --> 00:15:44,330
"There is something there." Yeah,
there's a, uh… Ah, that's awesome.
392
00:15:44,510 --> 00:15:47,829
Now, you just said, you know, sometimes
it's a piece of art, sometimes
393
00:15:47,829 --> 00:15:50,449
it, you know, maybe it's a TV show
or a book or something, and then
394
00:15:50,449 --> 00:15:53,039
there's a mechanic that you're like,
"Ooh, that'd be fun to explore."
395
00:15:53,439 --> 00:15:53,639
Mm-hmm.
396
00:15:53,650 --> 00:15:56,789
Do you intentionally
change up genres regularly?
397
00:15:56,790 --> 00:16:01,239
Because, I mean, in your, in your
library, I mean, you have heist, you
398
00:16:01,239 --> 00:16:06,069
have, uh, fantasy, you have… Uh, you
know, I wanted to just, you know, talk
399
00:16:06,079 --> 00:16:08,549
about Midnight Melodies, which is the
most recent one of yours that I played.
400
00:16:08,549 --> 00:16:09,329
But you have horror.
401
00:16:09,659 --> 00:16:10,740
The genres are all over.
402
00:16:10,769 --> 00:16:17,079
Uh, do you try not to- go back to,
like, a similar genre regularly,
403
00:16:17,079 --> 00:16:18,699
or does it, is it what fits?
404
00:16:19,339 --> 00:16:20,449
No, I actually do.
405
00:16:20,459 --> 00:16:25,449
It's, it's something that I have
that is I always want the new stuff.
406
00:16:25,780 --> 00:16:28,160
I think it's my flavor
of undiagnosed autism.
407
00:16:28,610 --> 00:16:32,440
Instead of having to repeat everything,
I, I need to not repeat everything.
408
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:32,479
Yeah.
409
00:16:32,479 --> 00:16:33,630
I always give this example.
410
00:16:33,630 --> 00:16:36,669
You know those Spotify Wrapped at
the end of the year- Mm-hmm … that
411
00:16:36,999 --> 00:16:39,759
gives you what's your most
listened song of the year?
412
00:16:40,079 --> 00:16:43,799
So my result's like, "You
listened to this song six times."
413
00:16:44,010 --> 00:16:44,329
Yeah.
414
00:16:44,780 --> 00:16:50,560
In contrast, you listened to 1,300 new
artists that you never listened before.
415
00:16:50,570 --> 00:16:50,949
I love it.
416
00:16:50,949 --> 00:16:54,049
So I'm always looking
for something new to do.
417
00:16:54,079 --> 00:16:59,260
One thing that I repeated often in, in
other podcasts is there's the paper or
418
00:16:59,309 --> 00:17:05,409
airplane approach to game design, which
is I love getting a piece of paper-
419
00:17:05,409 --> 00:17:12,369
Mm … and folding it to make it a, a
paper airplane, a new design, and then
420
00:17:12,479 --> 00:17:15,449
I open a window and I throw it away.
421
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,279
And it's gone.
422
00:17:17,729 --> 00:17:18,009
Yeah.
423
00:17:18,159 --> 00:17:21,220
Once it's left my window,
it's not mine anymore.
424
00:17:21,220 --> 00:17:24,859
If you want to pick it up, unfold
it, learn how it works, and do your
425
00:17:24,890 --> 00:17:27,209
stuff with it, I'm glad for you.
426
00:17:27,309 --> 00:17:30,419
Me, I'm going back to another
piece of paper and I'm doing
427
00:17:30,419 --> 00:17:31,799
something completely different now.
428
00:17:32,299 --> 00:17:38,519
So I like to experiment and I tend
to rotate genres, dice mechanics,
429
00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:43,039
and something that is that's
hilarious to say, but it is true.
430
00:17:43,449 --> 00:17:47,669
When I'm about to release a new
game, I go back to my Itch page and
431
00:17:47,669 --> 00:17:51,819
I look at the color of the thumbnails
of my- Oh … most recent games.
432
00:17:51,869 --> 00:17:53,419
And I said, "Oh, you know what?
433
00:17:53,469 --> 00:17:55,339
I need, I need a blue game now.
434
00:17:55,489 --> 00:18:00,409
I need, I need so I, I'm, uh, actually
now in desp- in desperate need of a
435
00:18:00,409 --> 00:18:05,399
green game because- Ooh … I've been
through orange and purples with Everspark,
436
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,169
uh, and Random Realities and Triple O.
437
00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:09,559
I'm done with orange.
438
00:18:09,659 --> 00:18:10,219
Too much orange.
439
00:18:10,219 --> 00:18:11,439
So too much orange.
440
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:12,059
Not, not
441
00:18:12,059 --> 00:18:12,609
too much- Mouse SW-
442
00:18:12,609 --> 00:18:13,359
But you're, yeah.
443
00:18:13,589 --> 00:18:13,929
Enough.
444
00:18:14,159 --> 00:18:14,489
You've- Enough
445
00:18:14,679 --> 00:18:15,699
…
you've saturated the orange.
446
00:18:16,079 --> 00:18:20,499
Now Mouse SWORD's gonna be blue and gold,
and then I, I think I need a green game.
447
00:18:20,509 --> 00:18:22,659
And I, I'm not even-
Ooh … kidding when I say that.
448
00:18:22,659 --> 00:18:25,569
This is something that I
take into consideration.
449
00:18:25,610 --> 00:18:28,444
I like to Diversify.
450
00:18:28,444 --> 00:18:32,234
And sometimes I make games that
I don't even have a, a very
451
00:18:32,234 --> 00:18:33,864
personal relation to the genre.
452
00:18:33,864 --> 00:18:35,964
Like, I made a slasher horror game.
453
00:18:36,423 --> 00:18:36,524
Mm-hmm.
454
00:18:36,534 --> 00:18:38,254
I don't consume horror at all.
455
00:18:38,264 --> 00:18:38,284
Yeah.
456
00:18:38,774 --> 00:18:44,533
Uh, I, I went from make the
games you want to play to make
457
00:18:44,534 --> 00:18:46,053
the games you want to exist.
458
00:18:46,524 --> 00:18:46,904
Yeah.
459
00:18:46,954 --> 00:18:50,483
'Cause sometimes I just wish
something existed, like when I
460
00:18:50,483 --> 00:18:53,784
made O- Oneiroaut, which is a
game you play while you're asleep.
461
00:18:54,204 --> 00:18:54,554
Yeah.
462
00:18:54,604 --> 00:19:00,353
I, I wasn't particularly keen on
actually playing a lucid dream gamified
463
00:19:00,354 --> 00:19:05,333
experience, but I said, "This thing
needs to exist. If nobody has done
464
00:19:05,333 --> 00:19:07,764
it before, I, I'll do it," because
465
00:19:07,813 --> 00:19:08,183
Yeah
466
00:19:08,194 --> 00:19:12,393
…
it's a such a weird idea, just I, I want
to live in a world in that game that
467
00:19:12,394 --> 00:19:14,234
you play while you're asleep exists.
468
00:19:14,363 --> 00:19:15,053
So I just- I-
469
00:19:15,054 --> 00:19:15,734
went and done it
470
00:19:16,243 --> 00:19:19,054
…
to extend your metaphor, though, of
the paper airplane, uh, you know,
471
00:19:19,073 --> 00:19:20,353
you folded that piece of paper.
472
00:19:20,363 --> 00:19:23,114
You were like, "This is interesting.
I want to see if this is gonna fly.
473
00:19:23,144 --> 00:19:26,553
I think that s- like this should look
s- something out there should look
474
00:19:26,554 --> 00:19:28,293
like this," and you threw it out.
475
00:19:28,673 --> 00:19:31,994
And yeah, I think that sometimes
it is more like, "I wanna
476
00:19:31,994 --> 00:19:33,103
throw this idea out there.
477
00:19:33,193 --> 00:19:34,954
Did I nail it?" Like,
you know what I mean?
478
00:19:34,954 --> 00:19:36,264
Like, I hope so, right?
479
00:19:36,294 --> 00:19:40,738
But somebody might see that and go
Oh, there, okay, there's something
480
00:19:40,758 --> 00:19:42,308
about this that I'm gonna go off with.
481
00:19:42,338 --> 00:19:46,418
And you can, you know, you see them build
something off that and go, "Oh, wow. Yeah,
482
00:19:46,418 --> 00:19:48,838
no, see, that's what I'm talking about.
Like, it needed to be in the world so
483
00:19:48,857 --> 00:19:50,218
this thing could exist," or what have you.
484
00:19:50,238 --> 00:19:50,828
Exactly.
485
00:19:50,838 --> 00:19:55,178
Um- And I, I always say, no matter how
niche or how weird you think your ideas
486
00:19:55,308 --> 00:20:00,758
are, there's somebody out there who
will resonate with your strange ideas.
487
00:20:00,767 --> 00:20:03,817
So don't think, "Oh, nobody's
gonna like it. Nobody's gonna
488
00:20:03,817 --> 00:20:05,817
play it." Somebody will.
489
00:20:05,837 --> 00:20:06,067
Yeah.
490
00:20:06,067 --> 00:20:08,868
Doesn't- Somebody will have it
as their favorite game sometimes.
491
00:20:10,247 --> 00:20:10,888
Uh, yeah.
492
00:20:10,888 --> 00:20:13,518
I mean, you'd be, you'd be
surprised, and all you gotta do is
493
00:20:13,537 --> 00:20:14,718
you gotta put it out there, right?
494
00:20:14,767 --> 00:20:18,827
And, uh, that's- Sure … that's more,
that, that's me telling myself that.
495
00:20:18,847 --> 00:20:21,918
Like, "Hey, Rene, you got, like,
two or three games that are done,
496
00:20:21,998 --> 00:20:24,517
and you just gotta- … put 'em
out there. You just gotta, I just
497
00:20:24,517 --> 00:20:25,848
gotta make 'em look pretty enough."
498
00:20:25,927 --> 00:20:29,267
But, uh, as I said to somebody else
recently, I think that I'm, I've hit
499
00:20:29,267 --> 00:20:32,357
the point where I'm so bad at digital
design that I'm just- Mm-hmm … gonna
500
00:20:32,368 --> 00:20:36,197
start sketching a page Grant Howitt
style- Hmm … and just putting a game
501
00:20:36,197 --> 00:20:37,378
out like that, you know what I mean?
502
00:20:37,407 --> 00:20:38,508
If that's- Do it … what I gotta do.
503
00:20:38,627 --> 00:20:40,758
If that's what- Yeah … I gotta
do, that's what I gotta do.
504
00:20:41,318 --> 00:20:41,498
Um-
505
00:20:41,498 --> 00:20:41,797
Yeah.
506
00:20:41,847 --> 00:20:47,057
To, to your point, my first games, what
I did was I actually screenshot a page of
507
00:20:47,058 --> 00:20:49,247
a game that I liked the, the layout of.
508
00:20:49,737 --> 00:20:49,787
Mm-hmm.
509
00:20:49,787 --> 00:20:53,097
I threw it in Google Slides, which
was the only thing that I knew how
510
00:20:53,097 --> 00:20:57,167
to use, and I replicate the margins,
the line height, the size of the
511
00:20:57,167 --> 00:20:58,687
headings, the paragraph spacing.
512
00:20:58,897 --> 00:21:00,321
And I said, "Okay, I
513
00:21:00,321 --> 00:21:00,767
like that." I
514
00:21:00,767 --> 00:21:01,738
see how they did this.
515
00:21:01,838 --> 00:21:02,158
Yeah.
516
00:21:02,158 --> 00:21:03,108
I see how they did it.
517
00:21:03,128 --> 00:21:06,017
So reverse engineer it, and off I went.
518
00:21:06,497 --> 00:21:07,517
That's, uh- I- … that's how they do
519
00:21:07,517 --> 00:21:08,577
it … love that idea.
520
00:21:08,588 --> 00:21:08,658
It's good.
521
00:21:08,658 --> 00:21:09,137
Hold on.
522
00:21:09,147 --> 00:21:09,167
Yeah.
523
00:21:10,037 --> 00:21:13,147
You, you, you've, uh, I, I
said this before I hit record,
524
00:21:13,147 --> 00:21:14,458
but you also inspired me.
525
00:21:14,487 --> 00:21:18,067
Uh, one of my solo games that I made,
and I've got one expansion for and
526
00:21:18,067 --> 00:21:21,517
another done, but I, I just have
to do the layout for, is, uh, is a
527
00:21:21,527 --> 00:21:25,468
solo game I did called Mech based
off Spencer Campbell's Rune games.
528
00:21:25,567 --> 00:21:28,087
But I made it in Canva 'cause you
were like, "I make my games in Canva."
529
00:21:28,087 --> 00:21:30,438
And I was like, "Oh, I use that one.
530
00:21:30,438 --> 00:21:34,517
I know how to do that." That doesn't
feel like InDesign or Affinity,
531
00:21:34,518 --> 00:21:37,707
which when I open it, I just go,
"Oh, I went to school for science."
532
00:21:37,707 --> 00:21:39,777
Like, I don't know what this one is.
533
00:21:39,777 --> 00:21:40,277
Like, what is this?
534
00:21:40,277 --> 00:21:41,018
Um- It can be
535
00:21:41,018 --> 00:21:41,987
overwhelming, yes.
536
00:21:42,247 --> 00:21:42,928
Yeah, yeah.
537
00:21:42,928 --> 00:21:47,397
So, uh, so I love the idea of
just taking a picture of a book.
538
00:21:47,397 --> 00:21:49,887
I mean, I, I have enough where I could
be like, "I really like how this looks.
539
00:21:49,887 --> 00:21:53,167
Take a picture, scan it, or like,
you know, put it in there," and then
540
00:21:53,167 --> 00:21:54,248
just be like, mess around with this.
541
00:21:54,248 --> 00:21:57,518
Like, reverse engineer somebody
else's work and understand
542
00:21:57,518 --> 00:21:58,508
why they did what they did.
543
00:21:58,927 --> 00:21:59,117
All right.
544
00:21:59,128 --> 00:21:59,387
Oh, yeah.
545
00:21:59,867 --> 00:22:00,187
Challenge accepted.
546
00:22:00,187 --> 00:22:00,458
That works.
547
00:22:00,617 --> 00:22:01,087
You got me.
548
00:22:01,087 --> 00:22:01,157
Yeah.
549
00:22:02,677 --> 00:22:02,967
All right.
550
00:22:02,967 --> 00:22:06,107
Well, you, you've answered a lot about
the mechanics and, and ideas for your
551
00:22:06,107 --> 00:22:08,517
games that ch- you wanna challenge
yourself, you wanna do new things.
552
00:22:08,518 --> 00:22:10,598
You, you have to do new
things, which I love.
553
00:22:10,908 --> 00:22:15,078
I'm also, if people listen to this
podcast, they know me as a podcaster and
554
00:22:15,078 --> 00:22:16,528
person who wants to play all the games.
555
00:22:16,807 --> 00:22:19,428
I also wanna make- Yes … a lot of
games, and I am the same way, right?
556
00:22:19,428 --> 00:22:23,732
Like, I have a big Google Doc that's
just like- Here's an idea for this genre.
557
00:22:23,871 --> 00:22:25,351
I think this dice system
would work for this.
558
00:22:25,351 --> 00:22:28,502
Here's an idea for this game, and
I, uh, you know, I can't reuse this.
559
00:22:28,572 --> 00:22:30,312
I'm not going to reuse this ever, right?
560
00:22:30,712 --> 00:22:31,822
Yeah, true.
561
00:22:32,572 --> 00:22:32,822
I
562
00:22:32,831 --> 00:22:32,871
love that.
563
00:22:32,871 --> 00:22:34,032
That is done.
564
00:22:34,072 --> 00:22:34,522
Yeah, exactly.
565
00:22:34,532 --> 00:22:34,922
Yeah.
566
00:22:35,301 --> 00:22:35,531
Yeah.
567
00:22:35,532 --> 00:22:37,161
I wanna make one of all of them, right?
568
00:22:37,161 --> 00:22:37,321
True.
569
00:22:37,321 --> 00:22:37,802
That's true.
570
00:22:38,471 --> 00:22:42,481
Uh, so now, first off,
congrats on going full time.
571
00:22:42,722 --> 00:22:45,942
That's awesome, and you said you've been
doing this for five years full time.
572
00:22:46,421 --> 00:22:46,651
Mm-hmm.
573
00:22:46,651 --> 00:22:49,911
I know you recently posted, and time's
a weird soup so it might not be as
574
00:22:49,911 --> 00:22:53,061
recent as I think, but your office that
you're sitting in right now, congrats.
575
00:22:53,061 --> 00:22:54,081
It looks awesome.
576
00:22:54,462 --> 00:22:54,841
Thank you.
577
00:22:54,871 --> 00:22:59,041
How, how has your daily process changed?
578
00:22:59,062 --> 00:23:01,561
Or like, do you have,
do you have routines?
579
00:23:01,742 --> 00:23:04,502
And like, I know, like a lot of
people, I've, I'm currently trying
580
00:23:04,502 --> 00:23:08,381
to write my first book right now, and
my algorithm hears everything I say
581
00:23:08,381 --> 00:23:11,432
on my phone, so I get a lot of videos
of people being like, "I tried this
582
00:23:11,441 --> 00:23:13,741
author's writing routine," or whatever.
583
00:23:14,312 --> 00:23:18,011
And now I have a… In my brain I've
just been going, "I wonder what my
584
00:23:18,011 --> 00:23:21,341
favorite designer's like routines are,"
if they have them or if it's just like
585
00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:25,840
idea, "Oh, I have to run and go write
this down right now," kind of thing.
586
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:26,810
Right.
587
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:28,740
Most of the time it's routine.
588
00:23:28,770 --> 00:23:32,309
It's a very monotonous,
a discipline-focused job.
589
00:23:32,479 --> 00:23:36,939
I, I wrote about it s- some time ago
about the difference between diligent
590
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:42,320
creativity and inspired creativity,
which is to say diligent creativity
591
00:23:42,369 --> 00:23:46,510
is the act of sitting in front of
whatever it is, your computer or your
592
00:23:46,510 --> 00:23:52,649
notebook, and doing the work even when
you don't feel like doing it, especially
593
00:23:52,689 --> 00:23:54,150
when you don't feel like doing it.
594
00:23:54,150 --> 00:24:00,330
It's just like to have the muscle
memory of, uh, writing words onto
595
00:24:00,330 --> 00:24:07,969
paper, organizing an outline of an RPG
book, understanding how the things need
596
00:24:07,969 --> 00:24:12,999
to be in a certain order or another
order, which is a constant debate.
597
00:24:13,269 --> 00:24:18,290
Understanding how editing is also game
design, how the words- Mm … that
598
00:24:18,290 --> 00:24:22,569
you choose in your draft and the
words that fit on the book are going
599
00:24:22,569 --> 00:24:26,910
to change and how people experience
your game will change because of that.
600
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,630
So this is a lot of thing that's, is
just like discipline, a sit down, you
601
00:24:31,630 --> 00:24:33,439
look at your page, and you do the thing.
602
00:24:33,850 --> 00:24:37,679
So most of the time that is
what diligent creativity is.
603
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,589
It's just, uh, doing
the stuff, showing up.
604
00:24:41,809 --> 00:24:41,829
Yeah.
605
00:24:41,890 --> 00:24:46,769
Showing up is the most important skill
you can have in a creative endeavor.
606
00:24:47,149 --> 00:24:53,200
Sometimes, however, it does feel like
the romanticized version of a creative
607
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:58,639
endeavor that I kind of, uh, write a
full game in 12 hours because I had
608
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,809
insomnia and I devised a system- Yeah
609
00:25:01,809 --> 00:25:07,740
in my mind from midnight to 2:00 AM, and
I woke up in a somewhat how possessed
610
00:25:07,789 --> 00:25:09,280
state and typed everything down.
611
00:25:10,009 --> 00:25:19,249
That happens, but when that happens,
that muscle memory that you had, that
612
00:25:19,249 --> 00:25:24,269
you created- Mm-hmm … during the
diligent process is ready to capitalize
613
00:25:24,329 --> 00:25:26,639
on those moments- Yeah … of inspiration.
614
00:25:27,030 --> 00:25:30,469
So if you don't have the process
ready, if you don't know what to
615
00:25:30,479 --> 00:25:36,073
do, you can be hit like a truck by
inspiration And then you're left and
616
00:25:36,073 --> 00:25:37,543
you don't have a game after that.
617
00:25:37,543 --> 00:25:38,123
Right.
618
00:25:38,123 --> 00:25:45,033
I have a very specific way to wireframe
and outline my books that when those
619
00:25:45,033 --> 00:25:49,714
instances of inspiration happen, I
can fill everything in a, a few hours.
620
00:25:50,223 --> 00:25:52,774
Well, because I've made
it 40 times, you know?
621
00:25:52,994 --> 00:25:53,303
Right.
622
00:25:53,303 --> 00:25:59,123
So, uh, I think now that I have, uh,
uh, my space, even before that, I try
623
00:25:59,174 --> 00:26:02,954
to not question much what should I do.
624
00:26:03,613 --> 00:26:05,463
Today, I know what I should do.
625
00:26:05,463 --> 00:26:08,413
I should sit down and write,
and then get whatever's in
626
00:26:08,414 --> 00:26:10,323
front of me and do the thing.
627
00:26:10,664 --> 00:26:14,234
Of course, you have to respect
your body and your limits, but
628
00:26:14,274 --> 00:26:19,353
it is a, uh, a game that you play
between am I pushing too much?
629
00:26:19,373 --> 00:26:20,444
Am I burning out?
630
00:26:20,513 --> 00:26:24,214
Do I need- Mm … to take a break
and walk outside and see the ocean?
631
00:26:24,754 --> 00:26:30,283
Or am I just trying to avoid the work
that needs to be done because I'm not-
632
00:26:30,293 --> 00:26:33,713
Right … feeling particularly inspired,
or the muse hasn't visited me today?
633
00:26:33,803 --> 00:26:34,303
You know what I mean?
634
00:26:34,883 --> 00:26:40,383
Uh, so you have to be aware of those signs
and saying, "Okay, now I do need a break,"
635
00:26:41,004 --> 00:26:45,793
or, "No, now I do need to sit my butt in
the chair and just type things down- Yeah
636
00:26:45,794 --> 00:26:49,129
on the computer." And- It's time to work
637
00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:52,189
Uh, yeah, it's time to do all of like
the let's make sure that this page is
638
00:26:52,189 --> 00:26:53,429
referencing the right page, you know,
639
00:26:53,659 --> 00:26:54,179
like Oh, yeah.
640
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:54,959
Exactly.
641
00:26:54,969 --> 00:26:55,000
Okay.
642
00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:59,219
I didn't repeat just this,
uh, an entry on my D100 table.
643
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:00,769
That happens quite a lot.
644
00:27:01,129 --> 00:27:05,629
Uh- Yeah … so there is a lot to
designing a game that goes kind of
645
00:27:05,629 --> 00:27:07,789
invisible for people to h- consume it.
646
00:27:07,799 --> 00:27:11,459
And now that you've designed a b- and
have been designing a few, you know
647
00:27:11,459 --> 00:27:13,339
that there is this invisible work.
648
00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:13,379
Yes.
649
00:27:13,629 --> 00:27:16,849
I love how, uh, Hannah and
Evan from Design Doc said-
650
00:27:17,129 --> 00:27:17,329
Oh,
651
00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:21,499
so good … that there's the
first 90% of the game and then
652
00:27:21,499 --> 00:27:23,659
the final 90% of the game.
653
00:27:24,540 --> 00:27:25,929
And it's so true.
654
00:27:25,939 --> 00:27:26,139
It's what
655
00:27:26,139 --> 00:27:27,049
it feels like, yeah.
656
00:27:27,389 --> 00:27:27,529
For sure.
657
00:27:27,529 --> 00:27:28,559
It, it does feel like that.
658
00:27:29,019 --> 00:27:29,319
Yeah.
659
00:27:29,329 --> 00:27:29,349
Um.
660
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,109
That you gotta, you gotta do it.
661
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,879
So I wake up not too early.
662
00:27:33,889 --> 00:27:40,209
I don't work more than five or six hours
a day because the office, office times
663
00:27:40,239 --> 00:27:44,520
that we got used to are not productive
for a creative endeavor at all.
664
00:27:44,829 --> 00:27:45,089
So
665
00:27:45,299 --> 00:27:45,529
true.
666
00:27:45,529 --> 00:27:48,659
So- That's so true … uh, you,
if you get three or four hours of
667
00:27:48,659 --> 00:27:50,899
creative work a day, this is plenty.
668
00:27:51,329 --> 00:27:56,619
So I have one hour for business
things like answering emails, updating
669
00:27:56,620 --> 00:28:00,899
pages, talking to my publisher,
uh, cr- Kickstarter campaigns,
670
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:05,570
crowdfunding and everything, getting
inspired by posts that I see online,
671
00:28:05,580 --> 00:28:07,449
reading a newsletter or, or other.
672
00:28:07,799 --> 00:28:10,839
And then it's four times
of like focused work.
673
00:28:10,929 --> 00:28:12,979
Focused, quote, unquote- Yeah.
674
00:28:13,369 --> 00:28:17,080
because sometimes you, your mind
just- Mostly … yeah, mostly, yeah.
675
00:28:17,679 --> 00:28:19,720
Uh, y- sometimes your mind wanders.
676
00:28:19,729 --> 00:28:22,480
Sometimes they wander
in very cool directions.
677
00:28:22,510 --> 00:28:26,459
Sometimes you procrastinate working
on a game by making a new game, which
678
00:28:26,459 --> 00:28:30,599
is sometimes fun if you actually act
on it and it doesn't- Yeah … sit
679
00:28:30,689 --> 00:28:33,449
on your to-do list for 17 years.
680
00:28:33,509 --> 00:28:39,939
But yeah, I, I start my, my working
job at 9:30, and I do some emails, and
681
00:28:39,939 --> 00:28:44,809
then I work up until noon, which is
my most productive, productive hours.
682
00:28:44,829 --> 00:28:47,789
And then I have a very
long break after lunch.
683
00:28:48,099 --> 00:28:51,399
I do my siesta, which is not
an app, it's an actual siesta.
684
00:28:51,409 --> 00:28:51,429
Yeah.
685
00:28:51,749 --> 00:28:57,899
I get back at 4:00-ish, uh, go to gym,
work until 6:00, 7:00, and I'm done.
686
00:28:58,399 --> 00:28:58,759
Nice.
687
00:28:58,759 --> 00:29:00,330
That's a successful d- day for me.
688
00:29:00,569 --> 00:29:05,069
Sometimes this means I wrote
three chapters of a book.
689
00:29:05,220 --> 00:29:10,236
Sometimes this means that I wrote
six entries on a table But such
690
00:29:10,236 --> 00:29:11,936
is the life of a game designer.
691
00:29:11,986 --> 00:29:15,886
The- Yeah … you gotta take
it what comes of it and, uh-
692
00:29:15,926 --> 00:29:18,556
There's- Off you go … yeah, there's
an average in there, and regardless,
693
00:29:18,565 --> 00:29:19,566
you got something done, right?
694
00:29:19,626 --> 00:29:20,226
Uh, yeah.
695
00:29:20,226 --> 00:29:20,236
Exactly.
696
00:29:20,236 --> 00:29:24,015
I, again, I, you know, uh, to writing,
I mean, like, sometimes people say
697
00:29:24,015 --> 00:29:27,686
sometimes you sit down, you write,
like, you know, 2,500, 5,000 words.
698
00:29:27,926 --> 00:29:31,596
Uh, and you're just cruising, and
other times all you can get out is 250
699
00:29:31,596 --> 00:29:34,596
words, but those 250 words were the
hard ones that you had to get through.
700
00:29:34,955 --> 00:29:35,545
So tomorrow- Exactly
701
00:29:35,545 --> 00:29:36,626
you can write 2… You know what I mean?
702
00:29:36,875 --> 00:29:37,175
Whatever.
703
00:29:37,215 --> 00:29:37,585
Oh, yeah.
704
00:29:37,586 --> 00:29:40,205
So yeah, that's, uh,
I, I love to hear that.
705
00:29:40,256 --> 00:29:41,446
Uh, and that's a good process.
706
00:29:41,465 --> 00:29:44,945
I wish, you know, like, I have my,
my day job, and I've been lucky
707
00:29:44,945 --> 00:29:47,035
enough that I have, like, a lunch
game with some friends that has
708
00:29:47,035 --> 00:29:49,765
ballooned into crazy, crazy sizes.
709
00:29:49,785 --> 00:29:53,696
Um, but on those days when I don't
play, I try and use my lunch to
710
00:29:53,696 --> 00:29:55,405
sit down and just write or- Mm-hmm
711
00:29:55,405 --> 00:29:58,695
sit down and just, like, do something
creative to, like, break my brain away
712
00:29:58,695 --> 00:30:03,535
from what I've been doing and, you know,
uh, keep it flexible or whatnot, so, um.
713
00:30:03,535 --> 00:30:03,915
Yeah.
714
00:30:03,986 --> 00:30:08,605
Uh, one tip, if I can offer to
people out there, is, like, switch
715
00:30:08,615 --> 00:30:10,955
frequently between analog and digital.
716
00:30:11,425 --> 00:30:16,185
Uh- Mm … sometimes, uh, just by
grabbing a piece of, piece of paper
717
00:30:16,226 --> 00:30:21,416
and a pen and sketching things around,
uh, an idea that's, or a sentence
718
00:30:21,416 --> 00:30:25,855
that is trying to break through,
uh, for hours just comes through.
719
00:30:25,875 --> 00:30:29,446
And then when you see that the, all the
ideas on your paper are starting not
720
00:30:29,446 --> 00:30:33,825
to make sense, you go back to digital
and use the structure that digital
721
00:30:33,826 --> 00:30:36,215
platforms offer you to organize that.
722
00:30:36,226 --> 00:30:38,795
And then when you get stuck,
you jump back to the paper and
723
00:30:38,796 --> 00:30:40,766
you do that back and forth.
724
00:30:40,835 --> 00:30:44,435
That helps a lot, and I have to
remind myself to do this more often.
725
00:30:44,436 --> 00:30:46,516
Sometimes I just stop and then I'm stuck.
726
00:30:46,516 --> 00:30:50,545
I say, "What's wrong with…
Oh, yes. Of course." Paper.
727
00:30:51,425 --> 00:30:51,785
Yeah.
728
00:30:52,165 --> 00:30:58,875
I, you know, it is so funny to me how,
um, how much it, like, changed my brain as
729
00:30:58,875 --> 00:31:02,935
far as, like, productivity and creativity
when, uh, you know, this is not my first
730
00:31:02,936 --> 00:31:04,785
attempt at, uh, trying to write fiction.
731
00:31:04,855 --> 00:31:07,455
Uh, like, I've, my wife has always
been like, "You GM all the time.
732
00:31:07,455 --> 00:31:08,315
You write all these stories.
733
00:31:08,315 --> 00:31:09,355
You write all these things."
Like, you know what I mean?
734
00:31:09,355 --> 00:31:12,126
Like, she's like, "Just, just
write the book version of it and
735
00:31:12,126 --> 00:31:14,315
then, like, save this other one
for a campaign or whatever." And
736
00:31:14,315 --> 00:31:16,156
I've always been like, "Yeah, I
could do that." You know, whatever.
737
00:31:16,205 --> 00:31:20,336
Um, but then- … it, you know,
uh, I just, like, made, a- and I
738
00:31:20,336 --> 00:31:22,575
stuck to a New Year's resolution
this year, which is rare.
739
00:31:22,776 --> 00:31:25,445
But it was like, I'm gonna
write, physically write one
740
00:31:25,446 --> 00:31:26,916
page in a journal every day.
741
00:31:26,965 --> 00:31:28,315
It's not a big page of a journal.
742
00:31:28,336 --> 00:31:30,855
It's like a, you know, a, A6?
743
00:31:30,895 --> 00:31:31,975
Is that- Mm-hmm … is that bigger?
744
00:31:31,976 --> 00:31:32,315
I don't know.
745
00:31:32,315 --> 00:31:33,295
Yeah, like it's a small one.
746
00:31:33,295 --> 00:31:33,325
It's like
747
00:31:33,325 --> 00:31:33,695
smaller, yeah.
748
00:31:33,695 --> 00:31:33,905
Yeah,
749
00:31:34,105 --> 00:31:34,545
yeah.
750
00:31:34,575 --> 00:31:37,375
Um, and it's a smaller one.
751
00:31:37,375 --> 00:31:41,445
I was like, I can commit to one page
a day, handwriting one page of words.
752
00:31:41,756 --> 00:31:44,545
And I, I made it, like, all the way.
753
00:31:44,545 --> 00:31:47,966
I, I recently had, like, a week where
I haven't been able to do it, but I
754
00:31:47,966 --> 00:31:50,856
made it, like, six months of every
day writing a page in this book.
755
00:31:50,875 --> 00:31:55,415
And then every week I would just go and
type it up in a doc, and then I'd look
756
00:31:55,416 --> 00:31:57,515
at what I wrote, and I'd be like, "Okay,
I'm gonna expand on this a little bit.
757
00:31:57,565 --> 00:31:58,706
Oh, I don't like how I worded that.
758
00:31:58,706 --> 00:32:01,636
I'm gonna write this over here." And
then it balloons even more, and it became
759
00:32:01,636 --> 00:32:05,295
this thing where I was like, but all the
times I tried to sit at a computer and
760
00:32:05,295 --> 00:32:07,680
write something- Google's right there.
761
00:32:07,970 --> 00:32:08,390
You know what I mean?
762
00:32:08,390 --> 00:32:10,970
Like a website is right there to be
like, "What's the word I'm looking for?"
763
00:32:10,970 --> 00:32:12,980
And then 10 minutes later- Oh, yeah
… I'm like, "I've done nothing." Mm-hmm.
764
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,180
Um, so I, I love the idea.
765
00:32:15,180 --> 00:32:17,980
I recently had another person on
this, uh, podcast interviewing her.
766
00:32:18,169 --> 00:32:22,069
Her name is Meadow, and she was like,
"I will…" She was like, "I will yell
767
00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:26,120
at people, like physically hand write
things." Like, it will… You'll be
768
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,409
surprised at how differently your brain is
like, "Oh, this is what you want to do."
769
00:32:30,490 --> 00:32:30,940
Totally.
770
00:32:30,970 --> 00:32:31,210
Uh.
771
00:32:31,210 --> 00:32:31,549
Totally.
772
00:32:31,549 --> 00:32:31,990
You know?
773
00:32:32,679 --> 00:32:32,979
Yeah.
774
00:32:32,980 --> 00:32:36,049
So- The, the spatiality of paper as well.
775
00:32:36,410 --> 00:32:39,889
Even if you try like whiteboarding
programs or anything- Mm-hmm … there is
776
00:32:39,889 --> 00:32:45,029
nothing like circling a word and throwing
an arrow back to a paragraph on the
777
00:32:45,030 --> 00:32:48,360
other page- Yeah … that connects ideas.
778
00:32:48,839 --> 00:32:50,199
There is nothing- Yes … like that, man.
779
00:32:50,260 --> 00:32:50,970
It's just like- It's so
780
00:32:50,970 --> 00:32:51,730
true.
781
00:32:51,839 --> 00:32:52,340
It's so true.
782
00:32:52,369 --> 00:32:56,019
It- Yeah … you solve problems
like just by circling things and
783
00:32:56,049 --> 00:32:57,090
connecting- Yeah … dots and-
784
00:32:57,740 --> 00:32:58,739
At this point, yeah … it's amazing.
785
00:32:58,739 --> 00:33:02,190
S- I mean, six months in, it's actually
funny to see how day one, you know,
786
00:33:02,190 --> 00:33:05,379
January 1st of this year, it was
me just going, "Okay, I'll get some
787
00:33:05,379 --> 00:33:09,519
writing stuff." And then like, you know,
come May, I have like, okay, if, if
788
00:33:09,519 --> 00:33:11,629
I put this in brackets it means this.
789
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,959
I have a little box over here that I
just put in the middle of my text to
790
00:33:15,119 --> 00:33:18,279
remind myself to do this other thing,
you know, or this just means descriptors,
791
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,749
or this just means… And now I have
like a whole shorthand that my brain
792
00:33:21,759 --> 00:33:25,219
goes, "I know what you mean. We can
facilitate that." It's kind of the
793
00:33:25,219 --> 00:33:27,300
diligent versus inspired thing, right?
794
00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:27,579
You know?
795
00:33:27,619 --> 00:33:27,999
There you go.
796
00:33:28,030 --> 00:33:30,739
Sometimes, sometimes I just want it to
s- sit there and be like, "No thank you.
797
00:33:30,740 --> 00:33:33,700
I don't wanna write this." But what
I can do is I can write my page
798
00:33:33,820 --> 00:33:37,219
with a big box in the middle that
says, "This is what I'm going for,
799
00:33:37,229 --> 00:33:38,359
vibes," blah, blah, blah, right?
800
00:33:38,390 --> 00:33:41,059
And- Mm-hmm … but otherwise, get
the work done, so I get the work done.
801
00:33:41,379 --> 00:33:45,759
Whatever means you find, like
walking and audio notes, I do
802
00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:46,779
this a lot- Mm-hmm … too.
803
00:33:47,249 --> 00:33:53,770
Like, uh, I like to leave the office when
I am in the middle of a half-formed idea,
804
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,349
and then put a podcast on, on people
playing games or talking about games,
805
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:05,109
and I see myself like after 30 seconds
pausing the podcast to say, "Hey, wait.
806
00:34:05,519 --> 00:34:08,099
This connected to the thing that I
was… Let me- Yeah … type this
807
00:34:08,139 --> 00:34:13,939
down or voice message myself to, to
translate it later." And, uh, that helps.
808
00:34:13,959 --> 00:34:18,699
Uh, use whatever tools you have to trick
your brain into connecting things that
809
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,919
otherwise wouldn't find a way into, into
your game, your writing or anything.
810
00:34:23,409 --> 00:34:23,829
Yeah.
811
00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:24,640
I love that.
812
00:34:24,769 --> 00:34:26,970
Obviously, I listen to a ton of
podcasts, and I do it all the time.
813
00:34:26,970 --> 00:34:29,230
I'll pause and just like have a
notes in my phone, and I'm just like,
814
00:34:29,519 --> 00:34:32,699
"Okay, this person said this thing."
Like, it… And totally unrelated to
815
00:34:32,699 --> 00:34:35,569
whatever they were talking about, like
I'll just like write like, "This is
816
00:34:35,570 --> 00:34:36,460
for this idea." You know what I mean?
817
00:34:36,460 --> 00:34:37,030
Like, and-
818
00:34:37,109 --> 00:34:37,439
Yep.
819
00:34:37,449 --> 00:34:37,469
Yeah.
820
00:34:37,619 --> 00:34:37,829
Yep.
821
00:34:38,752 --> 00:34:42,782
Speaking of processes and stuff like that
and, and getting ideas, half-formed ideas.
822
00:34:43,422 --> 00:34:44,572
Oh, I'm getting way ahead of myself.
823
00:34:44,572 --> 00:34:46,372
We have not even really talked Mouseborn.
824
00:34:46,392 --> 00:34:47,146
We have not even really, we
haven't even gotten there.
825
00:34:47,146 --> 00:34:47,372
Oh yeah.
826
00:34:47,372 --> 00:34:48,092
We should,
827
00:34:48,381 --> 00:34:49,072
we should.
828
00:34:49,402 --> 00:34:49,442
I like,
829
00:34:50,082 --> 00:34:52,221
I skipped ahead and I'm, like,
looking at my outline going,
830
00:34:52,222 --> 00:34:53,131
"I missed something here."
831
00:34:53,622 --> 00:34:54,462
Uh, Mouseborn.
832
00:34:55,061 --> 00:34:56,842
You have my full attention.
833
00:34:57,641 --> 00:35:02,122
Little mice critters, plus the
Ironsworn, you know, chassis system.
834
00:35:02,462 --> 00:35:03,701
Obviously I'm a sucker for that.
835
00:35:03,872 --> 00:35:08,291
And I feel like vibes wise, you
know, Ironsworn is a game that's,
836
00:35:08,731 --> 00:35:11,941
it, it's about harsh worlds and
survival and all this stuff.
837
00:35:12,211 --> 00:35:15,541
And something that a lot of
good, in my opinion, good
838
00:35:15,702 --> 00:35:17,082
mouse, uh, anthropomorphized…
839
00:35:18,082 --> 00:35:18,901
Is that the word I'm looking for?
840
00:35:18,961 --> 00:35:21,491
Anthropomorphized, uh- I think so,
841
00:35:21,491 --> 00:35:21,811
yep
842
00:35:22,071 --> 00:35:24,891
…
media does is it reminds
you that mice are mice.
843
00:35:24,921 --> 00:35:25,721
They're tiny.
844
00:35:25,761 --> 00:35:28,591
Like, there's predators everywhere.
845
00:35:28,792 --> 00:35:33,741
They are not… But that's what
makes bravery in them so beautiful.
846
00:35:33,751 --> 00:35:36,201
So, um, I guess I, I'm just very excited.
847
00:35:37,542 --> 00:35:41,611
So, uh, what about this idea made
you go, "I need to make this"?
848
00:35:42,141 --> 00:35:45,512
Uh, especially when, like you said,
Mouse Ridder and, like, Mouseguard
849
00:35:45,512 --> 00:35:47,151
and Ironsworn itself exist.
850
00:35:47,462 --> 00:35:47,481
Mm-hmm.
851
00:35:47,492 --> 00:35:51,081
Uh, what did you go, "No, I have
this idea and I'm gonna make it"?
852
00:35:51,801 --> 00:35:55,312
What, what does it do, like, differently
or, or dare I say better, you know,
853
00:35:55,611 --> 00:35:58,142
that you wanted to make sure you made?
854
00:35:58,882 --> 00:35:59,282
Right.
855
00:35:59,371 --> 00:36:02,852
The honest and short answer
is that I cannot help myself.
856
00:36:04,151 --> 00:36:05,245
But- That's a good answer … to
857
00:36:05,245 --> 00:36:06,211
give a- … if there's any.
858
00:36:08,011 --> 00:36:12,961
For a more sat- satisfactory a- answer
is that, well, I played Mouse Ridder,
859
00:36:12,961 --> 00:36:14,382
uh, Mouseguard- Mm-hmm … and Ironsworn.
860
00:36:14,382 --> 00:36:18,032
But when I played Mouse Ridder
I was enchanted by the charm of
861
00:36:18,032 --> 00:36:24,351
it, by the minimalism of it, and
the, the way you actually feel,
862
00:36:24,391 --> 00:36:27,111
like, vulnerable and- Mm-hmm
863
00:36:27,111 --> 00:36:32,481
the simple yet solid
procedures that it offers.
864
00:36:32,971 --> 00:36:39,371
However, it does have its roots on the
OSR in ways that some of them I love,
865
00:36:39,382 --> 00:36:44,821
like the clear hack scrolling procedures
and dungeon delving- Mm-hmm … and
866
00:36:44,821 --> 00:36:46,942
random tables that I absolutely love.
867
00:36:47,312 --> 00:36:47,542
Yeah.
868
00:36:47,542 --> 00:36:52,211
And other things that I love less,
like for example, the high lethality.
869
00:36:52,752 --> 00:36:53,012
Mm-hmm.
870
00:36:53,021 --> 00:36:57,662
Well, to their credit, uh, if there
were to be a game where, in which
871
00:36:57,662 --> 00:37:01,121
high lethality is justified is a
game about the little mice- Mice,
872
00:37:01,461 --> 00:37:01,761
yeah
873
00:37:01,871 --> 00:37:03,512
…
in a, in a dangerous and huge world.
874
00:37:03,821 --> 00:37:05,711
But there is a difference.
875
00:37:05,722 --> 00:37:06,882
There is a nuance there.
876
00:37:06,931 --> 00:37:10,421
Mouse Ridder treats the, the, the
mice as something that you can't
877
00:37:10,422 --> 00:37:12,161
just die and roll another mice.
878
00:37:12,161 --> 00:37:12,231
Yeah.
879
00:37:12,301 --> 00:37:15,041
That's actually a text
that is in the game.
880
00:37:15,854 --> 00:37:18,444
yeah, try things,
die- … you're a new mouse.
881
00:37:18,944 --> 00:37:24,174
And I feel like the, the way that
I tend to play games is that I want
882
00:37:24,183 --> 00:37:27,343
to try and develop a connection
to the character that I'm playing.
883
00:37:27,794 --> 00:37:27,993
Yeah.
884
00:37:28,064 --> 00:37:33,593
So if I'm treating them as like
fodder, I don't have that chance.
885
00:37:33,653 --> 00:37:38,373
And also I like, even though I
know that things are risky, I like
886
00:37:38,373 --> 00:37:41,714
to engage with the things, not
try to avoid the, like, the…
887
00:37:41,723 --> 00:37:44,393
Your best course of action
is not doing anything.
888
00:37:44,823 --> 00:37:45,193
Yeah.
889
00:37:45,194 --> 00:37:49,883
And when I, when I played Mausritter, I
had, uh, my nieces and nephews playing
890
00:37:49,883 --> 00:37:54,333
with me, and they rolled, like, a one
HP, which is another thing that I don't
891
00:37:54,473 --> 00:37:56,463
particularly appreciate about OS- OSR.
892
00:37:56,854 --> 00:38:00,033
I love random character concepts.
893
00:38:00,243 --> 00:38:03,203
I do not love random character competence.
894
00:38:03,944 --> 00:38:09,473
Mm. So for her, the, the response most of
the times o- to the question, "What do you
895
00:38:09,473 --> 00:38:12,203
do?" is- Hide … "I stand, I stand back."
896
00:38:12,203 --> 00:38:12,523
Yeah, yeah.
897
00:38:12,643 --> 00:38:13,733
And I'll d- or we won't engage.
898
00:38:13,733 --> 00:38:14,803
I have one hit point.
899
00:38:14,803 --> 00:38:15,053
Yeah.
900
00:38:15,354 --> 00:38:15,874
Exactly.
901
00:38:15,883 --> 00:38:15,903
Yeah.
902
00:38:15,913 --> 00:38:19,223
So to play the game optimally,
I want to play the game.
903
00:38:19,233 --> 00:38:21,184
So I don't particularly love that.
904
00:38:21,684 --> 00:38:27,464
I want mice to feel
vulnerable, not disposable.
905
00:38:27,894 --> 00:38:28,264
So-
906
00:38:28,343 --> 00:38:28,543
Right
907
00:38:29,043 --> 00:38:34,123
…
a rational person would simply, "You
know what? I have strength, s- starting
908
00:38:34,123 --> 00:38:40,103
will. I do plus three, plus two, plus
one, and roll 2d6 plus modifier and
909
00:38:40,104 --> 00:38:42,163
use the PBTA bands," and off you go.
910
00:38:42,163 --> 00:38:42,313
Sure.
911
00:38:42,324 --> 00:38:43,623
You have this table game
version- Tonal blues version.
912
00:38:43,623 --> 00:38:43,913
Yeah,
913
00:38:44,343 --> 00:38:44,643
yeah
914
00:38:44,824 --> 00:38:47,353
…
Mausritter version, and you're done.
915
00:38:47,843 --> 00:38:50,313
Not me though, apparently.
916
00:38:50,763 --> 00:38:50,853
Well, no.
917
00:38:50,993 --> 00:38:51,834
And well, you know what, though?
918
00:38:51,863 --> 00:38:54,734
Even, even that idea, right, where
you're like, you can make this
919
00:38:54,763 --> 00:38:56,223
narrative forward by doing this.
920
00:38:56,533 --> 00:39:01,033
I think that, you know, your point about
mice should be vulnerable, should be,
921
00:39:01,043 --> 00:39:03,663
you know, consequences should be severe.
922
00:39:03,894 --> 00:39:08,803
But the thing is, consequences in an OSR
game pretty much are like damage, right?
923
00:39:08,824 --> 00:39:10,984
Or like broken resources and like-
924
00:39:10,984 --> 00:39:11,303
Yep
925
00:39:11,394 --> 00:39:15,004
…
that's a thing in Ironsworn that you can
do, but like, you can also, because of
926
00:39:15,043 --> 00:39:19,273
the mechanics of Ironsworn- Yeah … and
how it is narrative first, uh, like-
927
00:39:20,118 --> 00:39:23,358
I'll admit it right here, I've played
multiple Ironsworn series on my podcast.
928
00:39:23,948 --> 00:39:27,888
I, you know, I can be harsh on myself
as far as consequences, but I usually
929
00:39:27,888 --> 00:39:32,558
go lateral with them and not like,
just like deal harm to myself, right?
930
00:39:32,558 --> 00:39:33,978
Because like- Precisely … it's
not as interesting.
931
00:39:34,118 --> 00:39:38,128
It's not as interesting to a story to
be like- Yeah … I'm, I'm very hurt,
932
00:39:38,178 --> 00:39:41,058
but mechanically I can do all the
same things I could do before anyway.
933
00:39:41,317 --> 00:39:41,798
You know?
934
00:39:41,808 --> 00:39:41,838
True.
935
00:39:41,848 --> 00:39:45,718
It's more interesting to be like, "There's
a new problem," like a big problem now.
936
00:39:46,067 --> 00:39:46,298
Um.
937
00:39:46,308 --> 00:39:46,788
Yeah.
938
00:39:46,788 --> 00:39:46,967
Yeah.
939
00:39:46,967 --> 00:39:47,227
Yeah.
940
00:39:47,258 --> 00:39:49,817
I mean, it's, it's, the
stakes are still there.
941
00:39:50,117 --> 00:39:54,988
I had games, I published games in
which I explicitly said that character
942
00:39:54,988 --> 00:39:58,497
death is not on the table, and I've
heard people say online that, "Oh, if
943
00:39:58,497 --> 00:40:01,637
character death is not an option, the
game has no stakes for me and feels
944
00:40:01,637 --> 00:40:06,158
flat." And, uh, skill issue, uh- Really.
945
00:40:06,967 --> 00:40:12,327
Like, did, did you think- Yeah … by
any chance at any point that Frodo
946
00:40:12,377 --> 00:40:14,148
wouldn't make it to the end- Mm
947
00:40:14,197 --> 00:40:15,227
of Lord of the Rings?
948
00:40:16,287 --> 00:40:16,477
Right.
949
00:40:16,477 --> 00:40:20,117
The stakes feel real, feel very high.
950
00:40:20,127 --> 00:40:22,968
He's going- Yeah … to get into
trouble, going to get hurt, going
951
00:40:22,997 --> 00:40:25,397
to get corrupted by the power.
952
00:40:25,408 --> 00:40:25,428
Yeah.
953
00:40:25,557 --> 00:40:25,887
But-
954
00:40:25,978 --> 00:40:26,398
Lose
955
00:40:26,408 --> 00:40:29,558
hope probably … you know, you know he's
going to deliver the ring at the end.
956
00:40:29,597 --> 00:40:34,257
Even if it, at the end he failed
the role, so to speak, and- Yeah
957
00:40:34,258 --> 00:40:37,658
somebody else, like it was a weak
hit probably, and somebody else
958
00:40:37,677 --> 00:40:39,117
had to finish the, the thing.
959
00:40:39,487 --> 00:40:44,198
But, uh, it, there is a lot of
narrative stakes, uh, on a game
960
00:40:44,198 --> 00:40:48,197
that are not necessarily tied to,
you know, you are a disposable
961
00:40:48,447 --> 00:40:49,957
character that can die at any time.
962
00:40:50,167 --> 00:40:56,997
I do, however, have on Mouseborn mouse
death on the table, but it is, uh,
963
00:40:57,607 --> 00:41:02,558
cushioned in a way that you engage
with it if the narrative brings you to
964
00:41:02,558 --> 00:41:07,077
this point and you make this decision
to go forward and say, "You know what?
965
00:41:07,127 --> 00:41:12,327
I'm interested in this narrative beat
that is this character facing death,"
966
00:41:12,557 --> 00:41:13,958
which I- Mm-hmm … find fascinating.
967
00:41:13,967 --> 00:41:19,347
It can be a very interesting moment
when it's done with the gravitas
968
00:41:19,377 --> 00:41:23,457
and the, the, the weight that
this moment requires, I think.
969
00:41:23,868 --> 00:41:26,437
So yeah, there, there was
that too in the table when I
970
00:41:26,447 --> 00:41:28,367
wanted to, to hack Mausritter.
971
00:41:29,984 --> 00:41:32,614
The argument, and it's funny,
I've, I've made both sides of this
972
00:41:32,614 --> 00:41:33,984
argument for certain games, right?
973
00:41:33,984 --> 00:41:39,114
Like, if you're playing an OSR game or
like a, you know, a combat simulator
974
00:41:39,174 --> 00:41:43,724
TTRPG like D&D or Pathfinder and your
home group is like, "Death is off the
975
00:41:43,724 --> 00:41:46,003
table," then, then I'm kind of like-
976
00:41:46,743 --> 00:41:46,883
Mm
977
00:41:46,893 --> 00:41:48,284
… "
Well, eh." You know what I mean?
978
00:41:48,284 --> 00:41:49,014
Like, that's kind of- Really?
979
00:41:49,393 --> 00:41:49,453
You know what I mean?
980
00:41:49,453 --> 00:41:51,054
Like, we're, we're playing
with the math game.
981
00:41:51,063 --> 00:41:53,664
Like, you know, if the math says
you go to zero, you go to zero.
982
00:41:53,924 --> 00:41:57,223
But like, if you're playing a game about
the story, you know, death is not even
983
00:41:57,254 --> 00:42:00,853
remotely the most interesting outcome
for a terrible thing to happen, right?
984
00:42:00,873 --> 00:42:02,154
Like Oh yeah, exactly.
985
00:42:02,164 --> 00:42:03,073
It's … You know what I mean?
986
00:42:03,083 --> 00:42:05,264
It, it actually is like
it, it cheapens it.
987
00:42:05,264 --> 00:42:08,203
Like, it's way more interesting to be
like, "No, you … Like, you didn't die.
988
00:42:08,204 --> 00:42:13,263
Like, now you have an injury. Now you have
an a- a rival, a, a … You know, you have
989
00:42:13,263 --> 00:42:15,773
something to have to go after, but they
got something that you wanted," right?
990
00:42:16,313 --> 00:42:16,703
Exactly.
991
00:42:17,033 --> 00:42:20,024
So yeah, I mean, like
say I agree, skill issue.
992
00:42:20,283 --> 00:42:20,934
Yeah, right.
993
00:42:21,274 --> 00:42:24,293
It doesn't mean that I don't enjoy
engaging with those games as well.
994
00:42:24,303 --> 00:42:28,314
Like, I'm- Right … all for playing
… I, I'm actually willing to play a
995
00:42:28,673 --> 00:42:32,863
Shadowdark Gauntlet that you start with
four zero- Yeah … level characters and
996
00:42:33,743 --> 00:42:33,793
go through-
997
00:42:34,393 --> 00:42:36,423
In that game, yeah.
998
00:42:36,423 --> 00:42:38,207
In that game- That's the
point … an expectation, right.
999
00:42:38,207 --> 00:42:38,228
Exactly, yeah.
1000
00:42:38,228 --> 00:42:38,250
Yeah, exactly.
1001
00:42:38,250 --> 00:42:38,943
E- even in Mausritter
if we're being honest.
1002
00:42:38,993 --> 00:42:43,573
But- Mm-hmm … if you get the, the, the
idea of I want to be a, a mouse adventurer
1003
00:42:43,573 --> 00:42:48,463
and go into the wild and perhaps
create this, "Oh, okay, I, I have this
1004
00:42:48,463 --> 00:42:51,293
community that I want to save or improve.
1005
00:42:51,294 --> 00:42:54,583
I have these people that are with me
going through all these things," and
1006
00:42:54,584 --> 00:42:58,494
you don't get even to like name your
character because you know the next
1007
00:42:58,494 --> 00:43:00,754
corner sudden death is- Yeah, yeah.
1008
00:43:00,754 --> 00:43:04,284
Um, that's not the kind of, uh, ex-
experience that I am aiming for.
1009
00:43:04,284 --> 00:43:04,694
Story, yeah.
1010
00:43:04,993 --> 00:43:06,343
Yeah, not … Exactly.
1011
00:43:06,754 --> 00:43:10,773
And, uh, to your point, Mouse Guard
does this brilliantly, and, uh,
1012
00:43:11,114 --> 00:43:12,574
why do something different then?
1013
00:43:13,044 --> 00:43:17,968
The thing is, uh, the much that
I love Mouse Guard Mouse Guard is
1014
00:43:17,968 --> 00:43:19,917
a Swiss watch of a system, right?
1015
00:43:19,948 --> 00:43:20,208
It
1016
00:43:20,208 --> 00:43:20,968
is It is, yeah.
1017
00:43:21,008 --> 00:43:23,778
The Burning Wheel mechanics are heavy.
1018
00:43:24,147 --> 00:43:24,567
Yeah.
1019
00:43:24,667 --> 00:43:28,187
Even though it is streamlined for
Mouse Guard, it still- Yeah … feels
1020
00:43:28,218 --> 00:43:31,567
like a lot of things that you have
to juggle in your, in your head.
1021
00:43:32,007 --> 00:43:32,027
Yeah.
1022
00:43:32,037 --> 00:43:37,767
And, uh, I feel that the Ironsworn
system's so tight, I don't have to
1023
00:43:37,768 --> 00:43:39,967
sell you on that of course, but- No
1024
00:43:39,967 --> 00:43:44,927
it was the game that actually changed
my mind as a game designer the most
1025
00:43:44,928 --> 00:43:49,327
of all the, that I experienced,
because I felt like the engines were
1026
00:43:49,328 --> 00:43:55,288
in place in a way that you don't need
to force yourself to tell a story.
1027
00:43:55,617 --> 00:43:59,607
Just by the thing, the way that the rolls
happen and the way the moves interact
1028
00:43:59,607 --> 00:44:03,578
with each, with each other, you just
need a MacGuffin, a little push- Yeah
1029
00:44:03,578 --> 00:44:04,268
out the door.
1030
00:44:04,277 --> 00:44:05,077
You do.
1031
00:44:05,148 --> 00:44:09,218
And the snowballing effect-
Yeah … will take you everywhere.
1032
00:44:09,227 --> 00:44:14,247
So I thought- Yeah … "You know what?
I think this is a, a perfect combo. If
1033
00:44:14,247 --> 00:44:21,317
I can manage to make two things match
that are very different." Because I
1034
00:44:21,317 --> 00:44:25,707
could just get the vibes of Mausritter
and the core engine and, and of
1035
00:44:25,708 --> 00:44:28,017
Ironsworn, this would be an easier job.
1036
00:44:28,098 --> 00:44:29,568
But I didn't do that.
1037
00:44:30,357 --> 00:44:34,107
I really like the, uh, inventory
system of Mausritter with
1038
00:44:34,107 --> 00:44:35,848
the moving tiles for items.
1039
00:44:35,907 --> 00:44:36,697
Oh, yes.
1040
00:44:36,797 --> 00:44:41,707
The, the tactile aspect of it is
so fun and it's so clever that
1041
00:44:41,707 --> 00:44:43,637
I wanted to put it on Ironsworn.
1042
00:44:44,217 --> 00:44:50,197
The, the idea of having even the OSR
approach of a good ideas don't need
1043
00:44:50,198 --> 00:44:52,068
to roll dice, and I actually- Mm
1044
00:44:52,077 --> 00:44:56,497
went ahead and e- encapsulated that
into a PBTA-like move, which is-
1045
00:44:56,827 --> 00:44:58,467
Oh, nice … like, yeah, heretic.
1046
00:44:58,777 --> 00:45:00,137
Uh- Yeah … blasphemy.
1047
00:45:00,988 --> 00:45:07,038
But it, it kind of works, and doing
like- My version of hex crawling and
1048
00:45:07,048 --> 00:45:11,667
dungeon crawling, which I'm calling tile
crawling, which is a, a system that I'm
1049
00:45:11,667 --> 00:45:18,707
developing for that, it's just so much
fun for me not to try and pull it off.
1050
00:45:18,738 --> 00:45:19,298
You know what I mean?
1051
00:45:19,848 --> 00:45:20,107
Yeah.
1052
00:45:20,107 --> 00:45:22,887
So it could be-- I could make it
easier on myself just by getting
1053
00:45:22,888 --> 00:45:26,268
like the vibes and the, some of
the, uh, elements of Mauswerer
1054
00:45:26,298 --> 00:45:31,827
and slapping it onto Ironsworn's,
uh, SRD and just calling it a day.
1055
00:45:32,567 --> 00:45:34,057
But I know myself
1056
00:45:34,538 --> 00:45:36,658
well enough- Well, yeah, we're
not doing it to be easy, right?
1057
00:45:36,658 --> 00:45:38,817
Like, you, you have the vision,
you wanna make it happen.
1058
00:45:38,817 --> 00:45:41,927
You don't wanna, you know, you're not
forcing yourself to be like, "Well, I,
1059
00:45:42,058 --> 00:45:44,967
I have to get it out by whatever day."
It's like, "No, I'm gonna make this the
1060
00:45:44,968 --> 00:45:47,127
way that I, I see it and want it to be."
1061
00:45:47,137 --> 00:45:47,637
Yeah.
1062
00:45:48,177 --> 00:45:50,367
And, and it's been a, a
different experience for me.
1063
00:45:50,387 --> 00:45:53,678
For a person that usually publishes
a game a month, it's been a year
1064
00:45:53,678 --> 00:45:59,567
that I've been developing Mausword
and, uh, fiddling with this dials of
1065
00:45:59,578 --> 00:46:03,627
how much I want the, uh, I want some
of the OSR experience to come here.
1066
00:46:03,637 --> 00:46:03,657
Yeah.
1067
00:46:03,917 --> 00:46:08,107
How much of the narrative feel of jumping
between moves that Ironsworn gives
1068
00:46:08,107 --> 00:46:11,237
you, uh, uh, I can import into that.
1069
00:46:11,548 --> 00:46:15,727
And also discovering how much of the
things that I devise as changes to
1070
00:46:15,737 --> 00:46:20,047
Ironsworn system are the same that
Sean Tomking is doing in Ironsworn
1071
00:46:20,057 --> 00:46:21,817
Legacies, which I find hilarious.
1072
00:46:22,718 --> 00:46:23,438
Just yeah, it's, that's awesome.
1073
00:46:23,438 --> 00:46:26,627
Uh, to- That you've, you've come to
some of the same conclusions and didn't
1074
00:46:26,627 --> 00:46:28,888
even realize- Yeah … that you're
looking, "Oh, yeah, look, wow." Yeah.
1075
00:46:28,927 --> 00:46:29,337
That's awesome.
1076
00:46:29,387 --> 00:46:32,598
I was afraid at some point it was
so similar I was about to write a,
1077
00:46:32,777 --> 00:46:36,467
an email to Sean saying, "Hey, hey
man, I'm not trying to undercut you
1078
00:46:36,468 --> 00:46:40,877
and publish a game with your ideas
before you do," because this is-
1079
00:46:40,947 --> 00:46:41,247
Yeah
1080
00:46:41,288 --> 00:46:43,797
due to, to 2028, Ironsworn Legacies is.
1081
00:46:43,907 --> 00:46:44,247
Yeah.
1082
00:46:44,667 --> 00:46:46,857
And I'm releasing it in August now.
1083
00:46:46,947 --> 00:46:50,947
So I, uh, I want to clarify, my
play sets and your codices are the
1084
00:46:50,947 --> 00:46:54,307
same thing, but we arrived at the
same conclusion at the same time.
1085
00:46:54,777 --> 00:46:55,057
Yeah, yeah.
1086
00:46:55,057 --> 00:46:55,537
I'm so sorry.
1087
00:46:56,527 --> 00:46:57,407
Well, I mean- But yeah, it's been
1088
00:46:57,407 --> 00:47:00,197
fun … this community is though,
I mean, the community of TTRPG
1089
00:47:00,218 --> 00:47:03,257
indie designers is like, you know,
constantly inspiring one another.
1090
00:47:03,258 --> 00:47:06,828
I think that there's a lot of, I mean,
like, Forged in the Dark is technically
1091
00:47:06,847 --> 00:47:07,887
powered by the Apocalypse, right?
1092
00:47:07,887 --> 00:47:09,067
Like, if you think of it like that way.
1093
00:47:09,067 --> 00:47:11,657
But there, there were big shifts
and like a lot of people came
1094
00:47:11,657 --> 00:47:15,187
to a lot of conclusions after
years of a system working.
1095
00:47:15,197 --> 00:47:15,617
Yeah.
1096
00:47:15,617 --> 00:47:18,877
People fo- you know, people find
ways to be like, "This is great."
1097
00:47:19,470 --> 00:47:20,830
imagine if we did this, you know?
1098
00:47:20,830 --> 00:47:22,040
And then- True … you know.
1099
00:47:22,060 --> 00:47:23,319
We arrive at same conclusions.
1100
00:47:23,330 --> 00:47:23,350
Yeah.
1101
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,240
And I'm big believer of the collective
consciousness of the things.
1102
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,040
Like, when somebody publishes an idea
that there was, like, 20 other people
1103
00:47:30,049 --> 00:47:31,259
having the same idea at the same time.
1104
00:47:31,319 --> 00:47:31,589
Yeah.
1105
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,310
But one person actually put it on paper.
1106
00:47:34,370 --> 00:47:37,990
And, uh- Yeah … in this case, there's
more than one person putting it on paper.
1107
00:47:39,089 --> 00:47:40,799
But yeah, uh, I've been doing that.
1108
00:47:40,819 --> 00:47:46,079
I've been streamlining moves to, uh,
uh, an approach that I think it's fun.
1109
00:47:46,399 --> 00:47:50,770
To your point when you said about being
harsh to yourself, I have this one,
1110
00:47:51,249 --> 00:47:56,009
uh, cover-all move which is I'm calling
Brave Fourth, which is the take action
1111
00:47:56,010 --> 00:47:57,669
in Ironsworn Legacies pretty much.
1112
00:47:57,679 --> 00:48:01,499
Mm. And then when you get a hit,
you have a pick list of good things.
1113
00:48:01,589 --> 00:48:03,959
And when you get a miss, you
have a pick list of bad things.
1114
00:48:04,450 --> 00:48:07,329
So very similar to what
Ironsworn Legacies is doing.
1115
00:48:07,700 --> 00:48:13,629
And I, I think I was able to give a
mechanical impact to any choice that you
1116
00:48:13,639 --> 00:48:20,489
make when you pay the price, but you als-
still have, like, a narrative scape valve
1117
00:48:20,740 --> 00:48:24,719
by creating, "I'm gonna to-- I'm going
to create a new challenge for me, and I
1118
00:48:24,730 --> 00:48:26,479
have to make more moves to get there."
1119
00:48:26,489 --> 00:48:26,719
Mm-hmm.
1120
00:48:26,730 --> 00:48:29,890
Instead of just like, "I'm taking
health, health, health, health." Yes.
1121
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:30,070
Okay.
1122
00:48:30,749 --> 00:48:32,349
I'm dead in the first scene.
1123
00:48:32,349 --> 00:48:32,529
Yeah.
1124
00:48:32,529 --> 00:48:33,179
Which- Yeah,
1125
00:48:33,279 --> 00:48:33,759
yeah
1126
00:48:33,980 --> 00:48:35,150
…
happens sometimes.
1127
00:48:35,159 --> 00:48:35,459
Sure.
1128
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:37,519
So yeah.
1129
00:48:37,519 --> 00:48:42,069
Uh, I think- It's, it's been, like, a
fun thing to see what the collision of
1130
00:48:42,069 --> 00:48:46,639
two different games creates, and it's
not a A plus B. It's definitely C.
1131
00:48:46,669 --> 00:48:48,759
It's a new game that is-
Yeah … coming out of it.
1132
00:48:48,929 --> 00:48:49,879
And that's how it should be, right?
1133
00:48:49,879 --> 00:48:53,309
It shouldn't just be I bolted this
onto this and removed this thing
1134
00:48:53,309 --> 00:48:54,279
and, like, Frankensteined it.
1135
00:48:54,279 --> 00:48:58,449
It should be, no, I, you know,
um, it's more genetics, right?
1136
00:48:58,620 --> 00:49:00,830
It's more like it's got, it's
got bits of this and bits of
1137
00:49:00,830 --> 00:49:01,999
this, and it made this new thing.
1138
00:49:02,359 --> 00:49:03,439
Exactly, yeah.
1139
00:49:03,569 --> 00:49:04,309
I'm excited.
1140
00:49:04,330 --> 00:49:08,199
Uh, I've had-- I published,
like, the pre-alpha document
1141
00:49:08,199 --> 00:49:09,709
on Itch for people to follow.
1142
00:49:09,970 --> 00:49:11,129
So it's a live document.
1143
00:49:11,129 --> 00:49:14,159
If you're listening to this and wanted
to jump in and, like, comment on
1144
00:49:14,159 --> 00:49:17,469
it, give suggestions, ask questions,
the document allows you for, for you
1145
00:49:17,470 --> 00:49:18,770
to l- leave those comments there.
1146
00:49:19,249 --> 00:49:26,369
And so far, 1,600 people have ac-
Wow … are following this project.
1147
00:49:26,369 --> 00:49:30,399
So I'm not alone in the weird
idea- Yes … of having t- or
1148
00:49:30,429 --> 00:49:31,979
playing Ironsworn with Little Mice.
1149
00:49:32,179 --> 00:49:34,340
So, uh, that's heartwarming to see.
1150
00:49:34,419 --> 00:49:34,979
Love it.
1151
00:49:35,209 --> 00:49:35,559
Yes.
1152
00:49:35,559 --> 00:49:35,869
Yeah.
1153
00:49:35,979 --> 00:49:36,539
Exciting.
1154
00:49:37,499 --> 00:49:38,209
That's awesome.
1155
00:49:38,259 --> 00:49:41,349
And I th- I don't, I don't mean to
move on too soon, but I do have a
1156
00:49:41,349 --> 00:49:44,959
question that I, I've been asking
designers that I interview, um,
1157
00:49:44,970 --> 00:49:46,370
because I feel like everyone's got one.
1158
00:49:46,599 --> 00:49:51,809
And, you know, hearing your process,
your inspiration, your colliding,
1159
00:49:51,849 --> 00:49:56,479
uh, you know, ideas in your, in your
mind at all times, but I, I'm just
1160
00:49:56,479 --> 00:49:58,399
curious, do you have a white whale?
1161
00:49:58,429 --> 00:50:02,949
Do you have a game that has always
been, like, a thing where you're like,
1162
00:50:02,989 --> 00:50:08,456
"I n- I want to design this," but
it's always kind of resisting that
1163
00:50:08,486 --> 00:50:10,946
or, you know, haven't had that- Oh boy
1164
00:50:10,956 --> 00:50:11,476
perfect light bulb moment?
1165
00:50:12,666 --> 00:50:14,066
Do I have a white whale?
1166
00:50:14,066 --> 00:50:17,465
Uh, that's, this could be,
uh, an entire episode about.
1167
00:50:17,465 --> 00:50:17,915
Whole episode?
1168
00:50:17,915 --> 00:50:18,165
Yeah.
1169
00:50:18,165 --> 00:50:18,726
I, yeah.
1170
00:50:19,126 --> 00:50:21,176
Well, I'll try to be brief about it.
1171
00:50:21,736 --> 00:50:24,485
So I have this idea of
a story crafting game.
1172
00:50:25,426 --> 00:50:26,306
So follow me here.
1173
00:50:26,476 --> 00:50:29,976
Uh, I never really liked
role-playing game as a name.
1174
00:50:30,156 --> 00:50:34,166
Uh, I think playing a role is not
the thing that it makes this kind of
1175
00:50:34,166 --> 00:50:37,655
experience the mo- most exclusive, most
defining experience of role-playing games.
1176
00:50:38,236 --> 00:50:39,555
But set that aside.
1177
00:50:39,555 --> 00:50:46,506
I wanted to, like, make a game that
you would go from world building-
1178
00:50:47,145 --> 00:50:47,515
Mm-hmm
1179
00:50:47,575 --> 00:50:54,830
…
character creation, story crafting
What I mean by that is s- you know
1180
00:50:54,830 --> 00:50:57,720
some games you, you start world
building, like Ironstone for example.
1181
00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:01,049
You, you start selecting the truths
of your- Mm-hmm … world and you
1182
00:51:01,049 --> 00:51:04,210
start shaping this thing in your mind
and you're very excited about that.
1183
00:51:04,509 --> 00:51:08,669
And then you go to character creation and
it, you start connecting your assets and
1184
00:51:08,669 --> 00:51:12,989
your choices to the choices you've made in
the world building process and everything,
1185
00:51:12,989 --> 00:51:14,519
and you are super hyped about that.
1186
00:51:14,839 --> 00:51:17,520
And then you kind of stop this
process and you start playing.
1187
00:51:17,529 --> 00:51:17,549
Yeah.
1188
00:51:18,229 --> 00:51:21,349
I ask myself, what if we
never stopped this process?
1189
00:51:22,279 --> 00:51:27,759
What if playing the game was like a
continuation of the same experience
1190
00:51:27,799 --> 00:51:32,969
of world building and character
creating through story crafting?
1191
00:51:33,569 --> 00:51:33,589
Mm-hmm.
1192
00:51:33,599 --> 00:51:35,189
What, what is different about that?
1193
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,199
So I think world building and
character creation is looking
1194
00:51:38,209 --> 00:51:39,930
back, is looking at the past.
1195
00:51:40,409 --> 00:51:41,059
Mm-hmm.
1196
00:51:41,060 --> 00:51:42,319
Is looking at things that are, are done.
1197
00:51:42,529 --> 00:51:44,810
And when you play, you're,
you're present and future.
1198
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:51,939
What if we took that and s- continued
the story, but by looking back, by
1199
00:51:52,819 --> 00:51:57,000
picking up the fragments of the worlds
that we created and the characters
1200
00:51:57,140 --> 00:52:03,029
that we created, locations, threads,
plot points, and crafting stories
1201
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:07,579
and looking at it, back at it, and
narrating what happens as if- Yeah
1202
00:52:07,579 --> 00:52:11,259
we were continuing the world-
Right … building process, right?
1203
00:52:11,259 --> 00:52:13,399
Because, because you don't know, right?
1204
00:52:13,409 --> 00:52:14,109
I, I love that.
1205
00:52:14,119 --> 00:52:16,080
It's like past tense, uh, past tense- Past
1206
00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:16,569
tense ver-
1207
00:52:16,609 --> 00:52:17,309
…
RPG … future
1208
00:52:17,310 --> 00:52:17,500
tense.
1209
00:52:17,500 --> 00:52:17,520
Yeah.
1210
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:18,080
Yeah, exactly.
1211
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:20,709
So, like, it… You could, yeah,
like as you're building all these
1212
00:52:20,709 --> 00:52:24,969
locations, cool, we made a location
and it's got a cool, uh, feature or
1213
00:52:24,969 --> 00:52:28,569
hook or history, but we don't know
how that history actually happened.
1214
00:52:28,569 --> 00:52:30,019
We just have a note that
this thing happened.
1215
00:52:30,029 --> 00:52:32,900
Like, "Oh, this is where
the, the king fell," right?
1216
00:52:32,969 --> 00:52:33,396
Uh- Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1217
00:52:33,396 --> 00:52:33,899
Exactly … okay, cool.
1218
00:52:34,119 --> 00:52:34,419
You know?
1219
00:52:34,459 --> 00:52:36,759
And then somebody else takes their
turn or whatever and goes like,
1220
00:52:36,759 --> 00:52:39,289
"Yeah, and then over here in this
place," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1221
00:52:39,569 --> 00:52:41,460
And then somebody else comes back
and goes, "Okay, well, like I
1222
00:52:41,460 --> 00:52:44,079
want to play out the fall," right?
1223
00:52:44,079 --> 00:52:45,900
Like, or, "I wanna play out-
Yeah … the scheming that led to
1224
00:52:45,900 --> 00:52:46,849
the fall." You know what I mean?
1225
00:52:46,849 --> 00:52:47,219
Yeah.
1226
00:52:47,559 --> 00:52:50,439
So, uh- And, and you could do that, and
then that informs more things around it.
1227
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:51,160
I
1228
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:51,486
love this.
1229
00:52:51,486 --> 00:52:51,649
Exactly.
1230
00:52:51,649 --> 00:52:56,150
So I think, uh, Microscope did
that to an extent very well.
1231
00:52:56,169 --> 00:52:56,189
Yeah.
1232
00:52:56,189 --> 00:52:59,129
Uh, that you can jump into
timeline and do things like that.
1233
00:52:59,529 --> 00:53:03,419
But there are two main difference to the,
the approach that I, I am trying to do
1234
00:53:03,420 --> 00:53:08,129
here is when you zoom in in Microscope,
you actually play out the things.
1235
00:53:08,349 --> 00:53:11,599
Then you- Mm-hmm … jump to the, or
play out the things in the present tense.
1236
00:53:11,799 --> 00:53:14,979
Even though you are in the
past, you actually jump into the
1237
00:53:14,979 --> 00:53:16,299
characters and play out the thing.
1238
00:53:16,670 --> 00:53:22,099
And another thing is I want to
actually try and play what the
1239
00:53:22,099 --> 00:53:26,640
future would be, but with the
mechanics of how we solve the past.
1240
00:53:27,049 --> 00:53:30,050
So, uh, let's say we have then,
we created a first mission.
1241
00:53:30,519 --> 00:53:35,249
So what we do, okay, what, how do we
think this first challenge going through
1242
00:53:35,250 --> 00:53:37,486
this mission- would have looked like.
1243
00:53:37,496 --> 00:53:37,516
Yeah.
1244
00:53:37,826 --> 00:53:43,396
And we would have like cards with snippets
of character skills and world lore- Yes.
1245
00:53:43,396 --> 00:53:43,586
Yeah.
1246
00:53:44,136 --> 00:53:48,036
I'll say, "I think, you know, your
climbing skill would have come in
1247
00:53:48,036 --> 00:53:51,686
handy here. Oh, let's bring that
NPC we mentioned here in this
1248
00:53:51,686 --> 00:53:55,355
scene." And then we look back and
see how this first challenge went.
1249
00:53:56,055 --> 00:54:00,505
So instead- Yeah … of asking what do
you do, you're asking what happened.
1250
00:54:01,085 --> 00:54:01,485
Yeah.
1251
00:54:01,495 --> 00:54:05,185
S- so this story crafting game-
What, yeah … is in my mind-
1252
00:54:05,626 --> 00:54:06,406
What traits, keywords, et cetera, did y-
1253
00:54:06,426 --> 00:54:06,876
Exactly
1254
00:54:06,906 --> 00:54:08,436
…
were relevant to this moment.
1255
00:54:08,535 --> 00:54:08,765
Ooh.
1256
00:54:08,785 --> 00:54:12,706
And then as you play them on the
table, you have perhaps a lot of
1257
00:54:12,715 --> 00:54:17,885
symbols or color codes that you start
establishing connections between those
1258
00:54:17,886 --> 00:54:20,866
facts, and the thread starts to evolve.
1259
00:54:21,145 --> 00:54:24,835
But always when you go to a new
scene, instead of playing out
1260
00:54:24,835 --> 00:54:28,016
the scene from the perspective
of the present, you say, "Okay.
1261
00:54:28,016 --> 00:54:29,505
The scene now ended.
1262
00:54:29,565 --> 00:54:30,156
What happened?
1263
00:54:30,156 --> 00:54:34,175
Let's look back and- Mm-hmm … forward
this thing, and craft a story together."
1264
00:54:34,335 --> 00:54:38,446
So you never stop playing world building
even though you're playing like the
1265
00:54:38,616 --> 00:54:41,346
mission or the quest of your characters.
1266
00:54:41,855 --> 00:54:45,175
I haven't nailed it, but I
haven't given up on it yet.
1267
00:54:45,186 --> 00:54:45,475
So that's
1268
00:54:45,475 --> 00:54:47,580
my- I love the idea … work flow.
1269
00:54:47,580 --> 00:54:47,935
That's a great- Story
1270
00:54:47,946 --> 00:54:48,535
crafting games.
1271
00:54:48,535 --> 00:54:48,965
That's a good one.
1272
00:54:49,266 --> 00:54:49,746
Yes.
1273
00:54:50,245 --> 00:54:50,885
Oh, I love that.
1274
00:54:50,885 --> 00:54:54,405
As somebody who loves to bring, uh,
like my tables into the world building,
1275
00:54:54,406 --> 00:54:58,046
like in the middle of campaigns we'll
just, I'll just be like, I'll look
1276
00:54:58,046 --> 00:55:00,465
at somebody and I'll be like, "Your
character would know the most about this.
1277
00:55:00,495 --> 00:55:02,745
Tell me something that's true and
I didn't think of this," and then
1278
00:55:02,745 --> 00:55:03,616
we're just gonna roll with it.
1279
00:55:04,086 --> 00:55:04,646
Exactly.
1280
00:55:04,885 --> 00:55:06,055
So like that's really fun.
1281
00:55:06,055 --> 00:55:08,036
It's like taking that and
being like, that is the game.
1282
00:55:08,116 --> 00:55:09,326
Like that is so good.
1283
00:55:10,266 --> 00:55:10,825
All right.
1284
00:55:11,156 --> 00:55:14,235
I think this is a good time to
transition to closing questions
1285
00:55:14,235 --> 00:55:14,996
if that's cool with you.
1286
00:55:15,255 --> 00:55:15,496
Oh, yeah.
1287
00:55:15,496 --> 00:55:15,605
Of
1288
00:55:15,605 --> 00:55:15,655
course.
1289
00:55:15,875 --> 00:55:17,285
Or all right, uh- You have six
1290
00:55:17,285 --> 00:55:17,675
minutes.
1291
00:55:17,675 --> 00:55:18,115
We can do this.
1292
00:55:19,805 --> 00:55:24,795
Um, so I end every session w- or every
interview with the same three questions.
1293
00:55:25,035 --> 00:55:29,415
Uh, and now it is actually three
questions and one, uh, not question,
1294
00:55:29,465 --> 00:55:30,685
uh, 'cause I've added a new one.
1295
00:55:30,895 --> 00:55:34,325
So people will be able to tell when I'm
recording these based on I've added-
1296
00:55:34,325 --> 00:55:34,885
a question.
1297
00:55:35,355 --> 00:55:38,985
But the first one is my favorite because
I, I never know how much people are
1298
00:55:38,985 --> 00:55:42,965
willing to put on the listeners, but
do you have any last bits of wisdom,
1299
00:55:42,995 --> 00:55:45,225
advice, or homework for the listeners?
1300
00:55:45,806 --> 00:55:46,346
Yes.
1301
00:55:46,905 --> 00:55:49,638
Make a game Do it … right now.
1302
00:55:49,718 --> 00:55:54,138
Uh, there is the one-page TTRPG
Jam coming out around the corner.
1303
00:55:54,147 --> 00:55:54,178
Mm-hmm.
1304
00:55:54,508 --> 00:55:58,227
It's a perfect opportunity for someone
that never designed a game to do one.
1305
00:55:58,607 --> 00:56:03,917
Open a Google Slides, A4
landscape mode, write a game.
1306
00:56:04,138 --> 00:56:05,897
Make it with what you have now.
1307
00:56:05,897 --> 00:56:10,617
Don't wait for perfect opportunities-
Mm … perfect, uh, resources.
1308
00:56:10,757 --> 00:56:15,257
Use public domain images, type on Google
Slides, which, which is free, export to
1309
00:56:15,257 --> 00:56:17,567
PDF, enter your jam, and make a game.
1310
00:56:17,617 --> 00:56:22,538
There is no experience like creating
a game, and you won't regret the
1311
00:56:22,578 --> 00:56:26,478
process and the things you learn about
yourself, about game design, about
1312
00:56:26,497 --> 00:56:31,028
condensing information and translating
what you have in your mind into words,
1313
00:56:31,367 --> 00:56:34,117
that creating a game can do for you.
1314
00:56:34,197 --> 00:56:37,817
And if you are lucky enough and
somebody experienced that and tell
1315
00:56:37,817 --> 00:56:42,908
them, tell you about it, ah, it's
the most rewar- rewarding thing ever.
1316
00:56:42,957 --> 00:56:45,138
So make a game right now.
1317
00:56:45,738 --> 00:56:46,138
Love it.
1318
00:56:46,347 --> 00:56:48,507
Yeah, get ready for the one-page jam.
1319
00:56:48,508 --> 00:56:48,957
I love that.
1320
00:56:48,968 --> 00:56:51,897
I'll keep, I'll, I'll keep hounding
people, the listeners about it.
1321
00:56:52,727 --> 00:56:53,058
There you go.
1322
00:56:53,068 --> 00:56:54,487
Um, all right.
1323
00:56:54,488 --> 00:56:58,197
The second question is, uh, are there any
games that you really wanna get to the
1324
00:56:58,197 --> 00:57:01,328
table or ideas you have yet to try out?
1325
00:57:01,617 --> 00:57:04,557
Uh, normally this is for people if they
wanna talk about, like, a character idea
1326
00:57:04,558 --> 00:57:07,928
they've never gotten to play or, like,
a plot hook as a GM that you've never
1327
00:57:07,928 --> 00:57:09,627
been able to, like, put into a story.
1328
00:57:09,917 --> 00:57:12,878
Um, we already talked about your
white whale, so I guess maybe…
1329
00:57:13,388 --> 00:57:17,837
Yeah, there is something about that,
but I also want to play more co-op
1330
00:57:17,837 --> 00:57:20,007
games with, uh, smaller groups.
1331
00:57:20,017 --> 00:57:20,197
Just,
1332
00:57:20,627 --> 00:57:21,097
yeah.
1333
00:57:21,317 --> 00:57:22,337
GM-less games.
1334
00:57:22,377 --> 00:57:28,457
I like the narrative that emerges when
people get into the flow of switching
1335
00:57:28,458 --> 00:57:35,567
between playing NPCs and playing PCs or
taking the reels, uh, uh, of, uh, being
1336
00:57:35,567 --> 00:57:40,057
the GM instead of being the player for
a second, and this shifting around.
1337
00:57:40,147 --> 00:57:44,217
This is such a cool experience that I
want to do more, and I want to see this
1338
00:57:44,517 --> 00:57:46,577
more in actual plays and everything.
1339
00:57:46,607 --> 00:57:50,347
It's, I think, one of my favorite
parts of people playing is when
1340
00:57:50,348 --> 00:57:55,428
they share this, this experience
of, uh, trading NPCs and PCs.
1341
00:57:55,467 --> 00:57:59,608
And with mechanical transparency too,
I just don't want the story that they
1342
00:57:59,608 --> 00:58:04,067
tell, but how they engage with the
mechanics and see how they share this,
1343
00:58:04,377 --> 00:58:06,147
"Okay, I'll take the, the reins now.
1344
00:58:06,148 --> 00:58:09,387
I'll roll for some, some creature now.
1345
00:58:09,398 --> 00:58:12,417
Now you take the reins." I think
this is fascinating and I want
1346
00:58:12,488 --> 00:58:14,238
to do more and see more in space.
1347
00:58:14,617 --> 00:58:14,907
Yeah.
1348
00:58:14,907 --> 00:58:18,227
It's almost, uh, I've heard somebody
describe GM-less games as you
1349
00:58:18,227 --> 00:58:20,057
could just call them GM full games.
1350
00:58:20,337 --> 00:58:20,607
Correct.
1351
00:58:20,637 --> 00:58:20,657
Yeah.
1352
00:58:20,657 --> 00:58:23,737
I kinda love, I kinda love that, and
it, it's a, I think it's a better
1353
00:58:24,288 --> 00:58:27,278
mentality for the people going
into it to think of it like, right?
1354
00:58:27,278 --> 00:58:30,638
Like, GM-less infers maybe that you're
just sitting there waiting for something
1355
00:58:30,638 --> 00:58:31,747
to happen that you have to answer.
1356
00:58:31,757 --> 00:58:33,948
GM full means take the reins, right?
1357
00:58:33,967 --> 00:58:34,417
Like, that's a-
1358
00:58:34,417 --> 00:58:34,937
Exactly
1359
00:58:35,428 --> 00:58:37,898
…
uh, how I- 100% All right.
1360
00:58:37,928 --> 00:58:38,418
That's good.
1361
00:58:38,448 --> 00:58:41,148
I, and I love the idea that in actual
play you wanna hear the mechanics.
1362
00:58:41,158 --> 00:58:42,308
I'm a big fan of that too.
1363
00:58:42,318 --> 00:58:45,118
Like, I want- I'm listening to you
play a game, tell me about the game.
1364
00:58:45,128 --> 00:58:46,598
Like, tell me why this
game rules, you know?
1365
00:58:46,628 --> 00:58:46,958
Yes.
1366
00:58:47,058 --> 00:58:49,267
Not just, not just your awesome
story, which is great, but like
1367
00:58:49,268 --> 00:58:50,198
tell me why this game rules.
1368
00:58:50,678 --> 00:58:50,988
Um.
1369
00:58:51,028 --> 00:58:55,277
Yeah, how, how does the game
helped these bits of story come to
1370
00:58:55,278 --> 00:58:57,158
fruition, if they did at all, right?
1371
00:58:57,278 --> 00:58:57,358
Exactly.
1372
00:58:57,477 --> 00:58:58,218
It's fascinating
1373
00:58:59,470 --> 00:58:59,980
Uh, all right.
1374
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:01,090
This is the new question.
1375
00:59:01,150 --> 00:59:05,410
Uh, and feel free to throw out
whatever you want, but, uh, do you
1376
00:59:05,410 --> 00:59:09,599
wanna recommend a book, TV show,
movie, or a game for me to try out?
1377
00:59:10,100 --> 00:59:10,610
I do.
1378
00:59:10,940 --> 00:59:16,090
Uh, if you haven't, there's a,
uh, solo RPG called Ronin from a
1379
00:59:16,099 --> 00:59:20,289
fellow Brazilian, uh, designer,
Thiago Junges, my great friend.
1380
00:59:20,730 --> 00:59:22,850
It is the game that inspired Notorious.
1381
00:59:22,910 --> 00:59:27,460
It is a very good game for people
that want to start solo RPGs because
1382
00:59:27,509 --> 00:59:29,340
it is a more structured experience.
1383
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:37,120
But it is unbelievable what Thiago was
able to do in just 30 pages the, to evoke
1384
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:39,250
stories that make you feel like a Ronin.
1385
00:59:39,569 --> 00:59:42,719
Uh, and I'm so envious of a
single table that he designed-
1386
00:59:43,519 --> 00:59:48,139
which is the setting for when you face
your final villain, that you roll on
1387
00:59:48,170 --> 00:59:53,509
two tables and com- and combine to make,
like, a bamboo forest in the sunset.
1388
00:59:53,580 --> 00:59:53,919
Sing- Ooh.
1389
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:55,409
Oh, it's so good.
1390
00:59:55,409 --> 00:59:55,739
Oh.
1391
00:59:56,499 --> 00:59:57,159
That's so good.
1392
00:59:57,159 --> 01:00:00,159
And then, and you discover your story
as you play, the reason that you
1393
01:00:00,159 --> 01:00:02,130
have a scar, what happened to you.
1394
01:00:02,470 --> 01:00:06,849
I played that w- uh, with my,
my wife, like just, uh, reading
1395
01:00:06,849 --> 01:00:11,390
the rules and she was the, the
solo player, and she was amazed.
1396
01:00:11,400 --> 01:00:15,699
So it's great for beginners,
but it's great for anyone.
1397
01:00:15,709 --> 01:00:16,570
Definitely recommend.
1398
01:00:16,570 --> 01:00:18,619
I think the PDF is free even, so.
1399
01:00:18,659 --> 01:00:19,279
I have it.
1400
01:00:19,279 --> 01:00:21,849
I, I know I have it, and it's
actually funny that you say that.
1401
01:00:21,870 --> 01:00:25,560
It's been on my list of what I call
my one player one shots forever.
1402
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:25,779
Right.
1403
01:00:26,230 --> 01:00:30,619
Uh, as like just a, uh, like, this game
looks awesome, and I, I did realize, like
1404
01:00:30,629 --> 01:00:33,129
I looked at it and I was like, "Oh, these
are the same mechanics as Notorious."
1405
01:00:33,129 --> 01:00:34,999
I didn't realize that it inspired it.
1406
01:00:35,199 --> 01:00:35,229
Yep.
1407
01:00:35,300 --> 01:00:35,330
Yep.
1408
01:00:35,339 --> 01:00:37,809
Which I played Notorious, so, uh, awesome.
1409
01:00:37,879 --> 01:00:39,179
Uh, add it to the list.
1410
01:00:39,179 --> 01:00:39,579
You know what?
1411
01:00:39,599 --> 01:00:41,679
It's moving up the list on
my one player one shots.
1412
01:00:41,729 --> 01:00:42,159
You might hear it soon.
1413
01:00:42,159 --> 01:00:42,670
Snatch it here.
1414
01:00:43,289 --> 01:00:43,579
Who knows?
1415
01:00:43,659 --> 01:00:43,899
Enough
1416
01:00:44,330 --> 01:00:45,509
fellow Brazilian designer.
1417
01:00:45,970 --> 01:00:46,520
Yeah.
1418
01:00:46,809 --> 01:00:49,749
Uh, oh, and congrats again,
Brazil, uh, beating Japan,
1419
01:00:49,779 --> 01:00:51,649
uh, onto round of 16 in- Heck
1420
01:00:51,650 --> 01:00:51,990
yeah.
1421
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:52,410
Let's celebrate
1422
01:00:52,660 --> 01:00:52,880
while I
1423
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:53,220
can.
1424
01:00:53,220 --> 01:00:54,620
Telling
1425
01:00:54,620 --> 01:00:55,029
people w- All right.
1426
01:00:55,029 --> 01:00:59,289
And the last thing I ask people to
do is, uh, tell people about what
1427
01:00:59,289 --> 01:01:02,189
you got going on and where they can
find you out there on the internet.
1428
01:01:02,789 --> 01:01:03,089
Right.
1429
01:01:03,089 --> 01:01:07,950
So, uh, I am Capacle everywhere, but,
uh, I decided to have my name as my
1430
01:01:07,950 --> 01:01:10,870
brand because I thought it would be more
personal, but soon I realized nobody
1431
01:01:10,870 --> 01:01:12,829
can spell, let alone pronounce my name.
1432
01:01:13,179 --> 01:01:17,309
You did a great job, Rene, but, uh,
uh- … then I, I went ahead and
1433
01:01:17,310 --> 01:01:19,550
bought a domain, which is quirky.games.
1434
01:01:19,620 --> 01:01:23,819
You can find my Patreon, my Blue Sky,
all my games on Itch, all my games
1435
01:01:23,819 --> 01:01:26,070
on now the RPG Trader, new place.
1436
01:01:26,129 --> 01:01:26,889
I love this place.
1437
01:01:26,950 --> 01:01:26,970
Um-
1438
01:01:26,980 --> 01:01:27,879
Oh, I've heard of this.
1439
01:01:28,039 --> 01:01:28,299
Yeah.
1440
01:01:28,299 --> 01:01:28,321
I
1441
01:01:28,321 --> 01:01:28,409
gotta check it out.
1442
01:01:28,409 --> 01:01:29,700
Oh, it's excellent.
1443
01:01:29,859 --> 01:01:30,609
It's super good.
1444
01:01:30,900 --> 01:01:35,029
Uh, the developer is opening, open
to suggestions and is listening
1445
01:01:35,049 --> 01:01:36,489
to, to feedback all the time.
1446
01:01:36,950 --> 01:01:37,830
Great platform.
1447
01:01:37,950 --> 01:01:41,999
Uh, I also have my games on Critical
Kit, which is my publisher partner now.
1448
01:01:42,439 --> 01:01:46,180
So if you go to quirky.games, don't
need to type www, anything else,
1449
01:01:46,180 --> 01:01:49,460
just quirky.games, you'll find
everything about me, uh, all my
1450
01:01:49,469 --> 01:01:52,239
games, my contacts, a- and everything.
1451
01:01:52,269 --> 01:01:57,040
You can find a link to Mouseborn, or
you can jump and read along for free
1452
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:58,830
in the alpha version of the game.
1453
01:01:58,940 --> 01:02:04,088
Uh- Uh, also follow the game on Backerkit
and everything else that I come up with
1454
01:02:04,328 --> 01:02:07,588
in this mind that can't stop making games.
1455
01:02:07,998 --> 01:02:09,158
I love it.
1456
01:02:09,508 --> 01:02:12,647
Uh, and all of those will be linked
in the podcast description, so you can
1457
01:02:12,647 --> 01:02:15,687
just go swipe whatever you're listening
to this on and go start clicking
1458
01:02:15,688 --> 01:02:17,467
those links and following Cezar.
1459
01:02:17,778 --> 01:02:20,697
And yeah, this is gonna be coming out
right around the time I think you're
1460
01:02:20,707 --> 01:02:22,128
aiming for Mouse Sworn to come out.
1461
01:02:22,508 --> 01:02:22,698
Correct.
1462
01:02:22,698 --> 01:02:24,338
So, so yeah.
1463
01:02:24,387 --> 01:02:27,477
Uh, you will not be far, listeners,
from getting your hands on
1464
01:02:27,477 --> 01:02:30,237
this game and getting in there
and playing Brave Little Mice.
1465
01:02:30,377 --> 01:02:31,207
Uh, love it.
1466
01:02:32,127 --> 01:02:33,438
Cezar, thank you so much for coming on.
1467
01:02:33,438 --> 01:02:35,047
This has been a, an absolute pleasure.
1468
01:02:35,347 --> 01:02:36,357
Oh, it's my pleasure.
1469
01:02:36,538 --> 01:02:37,148
Thanks for having me.