BONUS: Dead Certain: The Martha Moxley Murder (Part 1)

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You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
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My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
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and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
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experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
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other victims of violent crime.
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I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial.
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Parkway murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial
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Parkway Murders Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly.
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My name is Kristin Dilly.
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I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate,
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as well as the social media manager and co administrator
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for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner
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in crime.
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Bill Thomas. Welcome to mind Over Murder.
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I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas.
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We're joined today by journalist and podcaster Andrew Goldman, here
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to talk about his podcast Dead Certain The Martha Moxley Murder.
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Andrew, thank you for joining us.
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Oh, it's my great pleasure. Thank you for having me.
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Start by telling us a little bit about your life
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as a journalist. I find journalists particularly fascinating, and your
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career sure sounds like an interesting one.
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Tell us a little bit about it.
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It's since I was since I graduated from the University
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of Texas one hundred years ago. I'm fifty three years old,
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and I can never remember what years things were. But
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I've been a magazine journalist, which, as you probably know,
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as the years have gone on, has become more and
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more difficult to do because the industry doesn't really exist anymore.
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But I'm a long form narrative journalist. I started my
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career at Boston Magazine. I went to a small but
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oddly influential little newspaper in Manhattan called The New York Observer.
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From there, I went to the ill fated Talk magazine,
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working for Tina Brown. I worked for New York Magazine
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for a long pert I wrote for years. I was
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like one of the sole male voices at l magazine,
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where I started a column where I interviewed men about sex.
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And from there I actually went to the New York
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Times magazine, where I did there Talk column, which is
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the weekly one page interview Q and A. And I
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did that for about a little under two years until
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I got I got There's a whole other podcast. But
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I got fired partially for a bad tweet, and partially
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because after the bad tweet, after I'd apologize to everyone,
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I did an interview with an influential advertiser who didn't
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like how the interview went, and that kind of ended
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it there for me. So that was twenty thirteen and
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I was, I guess you would call it in Hollywood.
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My career was a bit and turnaround because I was
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over forty and I was trying to get magazine work
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what was left of it. And that was around and
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in twenty fifteen is when I started on this Moxley
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Martha Moxley journey, which is when I got in touch
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with Bobby Kennedy, who was a friend of a friend,
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or Bobby Kennedy got in touch with me, i should say,
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and said that he needed help writing a book on
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his cousin, Michael Skeekel, who his first cousin, Michael Skekel,
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who had been convicted of murder in two thousand and
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two of a murder that had happened many years before
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that in nineteen seventy five, of a neighbor of his
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in Greenwich, Connecticut named Martha Moxley. And I think I actually,
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I think I answered too much of your question, I
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went too far, But so I think that's just giving
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a little context as to where my head was when
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this project came to me, which was it was a
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really enticing project for a lot of reasons, but it
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was also a project that I was I had some
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major trepidations about doing for a few reasons, one of
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which was that I was convinced that I was going
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to try to write a book with a Kennedy trying
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to exculpate publicly his cousin, who I was convinced was guilty.
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It was a very famous case and it came in
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two thousand and two, and I definitely followed it in
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the media, and it just seemed to me absolutely that
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if they had been able to prosecute and win a
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conviction in two thousand and two for nineteen seventy five murder,
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everything in the media told me that they'd found the
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right guy. And I'm fascinated with the Kennedy family, but
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I also know enough about the Kennedy family to know
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that over the years since the JFK days, they've used
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journalists to whitewash their careers in a lot of ways.
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The candidates have done have a long history of doing
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questionable and sometimes unforgivable things. I think journalists were complicit
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in keeping the secret of JFK's infidelity. And I think
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that there was that the Kennedys were always really good
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at inviting journalists over and having a good time with
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them and paaling around with them. And I think that
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there were many situations where the Kennedys it feels like
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people felt like they got away with murder, not literal murder.
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But there was of course Ted Kennedy and Chap Equittic
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where Ted Kennedy left drove his car into the drink
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with a young woman and basically disappeared and didn't seem
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to didn't alert the authorities and tried to disappear and
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nothing really happened to him. And then there was of
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course William Kennedy Smith, who was who was tried for
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murder I think, and tried for rape in nineteen ninety one,
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and people feel like he got off because the Kennedys
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helped him and that he had a really great defense attorney.
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And I think people were convinced that he got away
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with rape. And so when you look at the when
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you look at people actually going down the list of
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all the Kennedy misdeeds, and I've seen this a lot
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on social media, always at the end of the list,
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and then there's Michael Skaigel kennedy cousin who killed his neighbor,
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and so I was I probably felt very much the
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way a lot of people felt in two thousand and two,
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which is God, finally one of these Kennedys is going
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to pay for his crimes. So anyway, so that's how
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that I've explained my journalism career. And I've gotten this book.
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I'm sorry, it was quite a bit nice, no.
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And I'm I'm definitely happy for the context, and I
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will definitely be the first to admit that as soon
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as I finished with Dead Certain, I said to myself, God,
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I hope he does one on chap Equittic, because I
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want the whole story on chap Equittic.
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I want every bit of it. And if you are
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willing to do that, please do you let me.
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Currently, I am currently as unemployed as I was when
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Bobby Kennedy reached me in twenty fifteen, and there's no
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immediate there's no immediate plans for a season two of
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Dead Certain, So I am dying to figure out a
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new I've had some people approach me with ideas.
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I think dead certain chapiquittic is something great idea could do. Yeah,
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if you need a little research assistant on that and
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do let me know.
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Would love to get Okay.
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All right, you two are already for fomenting doing business plans.
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Here doing business.
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Before we dive down too far into the case, which
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we're both very interested in doing, let me just start
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off with this question, Andrew, why a podcast?
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Why a podcast?
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I'd helped Bobby Kennedy write his twenty sixteen book called Frame,
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and Bobby had come to me with very specific ideas
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about what he wanted to do in the book, and
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I feel like fleshed out much of the reporting in it,
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and it was not the He hadn't done a great
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deal of the reporting, and I really dug into the
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documentary reporting and some of the interviewing. I felt like
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because of the time constraints of the book, and I
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think from probably start to finish, I worked on it
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six months, I felt like I had a hell of
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a lot more work to do on it, and I
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felt and my conclusions were actually considerably different than Bobby's
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and As I tell everybody, Bobby is a very controversial figure.
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But as I tell anybody who ever asks I say,
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I actually had a really I had a very decent
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time working with Bobby. We talked every day for many
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months during the making of this. He was not nearly
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as entitled as I assumed he could be given his name.
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And it was actually a very good experience.
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But the book represents his feelings and the book does
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not represent my feelings. He had very specific ideas of
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how the crime went down. I disagreed with him, and
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I didn't do it forcefully because his name was going
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to be on the book. So he wrote his book
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and he put out his theory of the crime, and
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I felt like there was a lot more reporting to do,
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and I felt the last thing I wanted to do
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was to jump in and do another book about it.
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And so seemed like at the time, because this is
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about a ten year odyssey, and from a business perspective,
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at that particular moment when I was considering doing it,
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it actually seemed like a This was in the years
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not long after Cereal, when all the major media companies
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were putting a great deal. Like all of the media
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companies were taking all of their money out of print
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and putting it into this part. They were chasing the
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serial money.
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Right.
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There were years where these major podcasting companies would put
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the kind of money required for a major reporting endeavor
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like Cereal, and I think they did this for a
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few years and realized how expensive they were and how
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much less expensive it was to have celebrities talking to
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their friends and how much money could come much more easily.
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So by the time I actually was able to do
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the podcast, which involved a lot of legal issues with
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Michael Skaigel, the gravy train had basically had stopped, and
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so it was actually it was incredibly difficult to get
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this podcast made. It was turned down by I think
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you could name any major podcast distributor and it was
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turned down by them. And yeah, like everybody, Like I
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had zooms with everybody, and I just and I knew
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I I was having zooms with people who I think
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were probably on average, probably twenty years younger than me,
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who'd never heard of the crime, and I I knew,
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after having delved into it, that it was absolutely the
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most amazing story I'd ever heard before. And I felt
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like I was trying to get that through in these
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zooms and I was just looking at these people with
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kind of dead eyes, and nobody got it. Nobody got it,
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and so I guess I'm still a child. But I
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think part of what I kind of love about the
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success of this podcast is that we showed them. Yes,
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thank god NBC Studios came along. We had it was
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a really difficult road to get the podcast made, which
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involved me finding a finally finding a partner. It seemed
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like the last deal in twenty twenty three in podcasting.
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We found a partner, and I didn't anticipate. I thought,
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once we found a partner, that means we're making this show.
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But what I didn't anticipate is that three months into
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the show, they'd send me an email being like, you
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know what, we just realized we don't have the money
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to make this.
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Oh great.
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Two days two days late, my agent fired me via
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email because I think that she knew that she couldn't
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sell it, and I don't think she particularly liked me.
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But that's a whole other story. But I decided to
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self finance the production of a pilot, and that's what
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NBC got, and that's what and they really responded to it.
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Wow, and I do when you said you were zuoming
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with people twenty years younger. One of the things I'm
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anticipating is that we are going to have people listening
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who are not going in to who Martha Moxley is
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and why we're still why are we still talking about
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the case. And I think it is because it's more
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than there is that Kennedy connection. I'm a high school
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teacher by day, and most of these kids do not
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have any interest in the Kennedys, not the way my
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generation does. I'm sure that we're going to have people
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who ask who's Martha Moxley and why she connected to
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the Kennedy's, and also, why do I care for any
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of our listeners who may not be aware just give
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us a brief friendown of who is Martha Moxley?
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Sure.
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Martha Moxley was a fifteen year old in nineteen seventy five.
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She was a vivacious, apparently very kind, really lovely, blonde,
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beautiful girl that was I think very popular with in
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the minds of many boys in Greenwich. She just moved
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from Piedmont, California, eighteen months before to Greenwich, Connecticut, which
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is one of, if not It's one of the wealthiest
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towns in the East Coast, and it's a suburb of
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New York City. So many Greenwich many people who live
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in Greenwich, especially in the seventies. I think that when
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the seventies, the last thing anybody would ever want to
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do is live in New York City, which was a
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real hellhole. So Greenwich was a great place where you
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could go in on the Metro North and you could
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work in the city and then come back to Greenwich.
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Martha and her family moved from Piedmont in I think
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late nineteen seventy three. Her father was very successful in
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the accounting company to Dross and he had been relocated
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from California to head the New York office, and it
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was a very big job for him, and so he
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moved his family from not only to Greenwich, but to Bellhaven,
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which is a small enclave of Greenwich. It's only about
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one hundred and twenty houses. I guess you could call
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it gated, because they do have gates going in and
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out of it, although very poorous gates.
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The security people I don't think were very effective. But
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it was.
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Probably one of the most beautiful, one of the most idyllic,
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one of the wealthiest places on the East Coast that
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somebody could live, and presumably one of the safest. Yeah,
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you would think one would think one would assume it
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was one of the safest, But there had been no
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That's the thing. That's the thing that will come into
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play with this case is that there had been no
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murders in Greenwich in over twenty years, which I think
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would mean that you're the law enforcement would be perhaps
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unprepared for a murder, which they turned out they were.
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But so anyway, so Martha Moxley moved to Greenwich, Connecticut.
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She got embraces off about six months before October thirtieth.
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As her diary shows, she was incredibly popular among the
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boys in Greenwich, and she was, I think her friends
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would say, was a big flirt which I think many
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fifteen year olds are. And I just want to be
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clear that Martha was, from everything I know, incredibly special girl.
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And I think her flirtation, I think that she was
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perhaps didn't understand exactly how powerful she was or how
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many men and boys were attracted to her. So she
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had she had everybody in Greenwich and Bellhaven kind of
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pursuing her. Her neighbors. About two hundred yards from her
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lived a family called the Scalele family, and the scale
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family was like seven kids, big Catholic family, now the Scagles.
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Michael Skeagle, who was convicted of the murder in two
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thousand and two, is one of the sons, but too
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many kids. And the father of the Scalekeles is a
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guy named Rushton Skekell, who was the younger brother of
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Ethel Skekell, who went on to marry Bobby Kennedy in
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nineteen fifty. So when they say that Michael Skeakeell was
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a Kennedy, he was indeed a Kennedy cousin because his
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his aunt had married Bobby Kennedy in nineteen sixty. And
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what I think people are often surprised about is that
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the Skeakle family was at that moment in time far
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wealthier than the Kennedy family.
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Skegle, I'm surprised by that. Yeah, when you mentioned it.
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Yeah, Michael Rushton's father, father, George Skekell, started a company
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called Great Lakes Carbon and Cole And he was just
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one of these guys. He's in the vein of the
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Koch brothers. It's all like very kind of petroleum kind
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of things that you never consider about all these processes.
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Everything he touched turned to gold. The man made an
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absolute fortune, and I think a lot more than Joe
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Kennedy did. And the different it's between I think the
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Scaleles and the Kennedy's were a What made I think
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that the marriage ethel marrying into the Kennedy's, what made
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for some interesting dynamics between the families is how different
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the families were. The Scicles were rock ribbed Republicans, as
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Republican as you can imagine. I really think that they
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thought that George Skekel, the patriarch, thought FDR was like Satan,
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whereas Satan in the Kennedy family. And also George Skekel
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I think said one of his mottos, ironically, given how
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Michael Skekele ultimately was convicted because of his mouth, George
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Skekele's motto was you can't quote silence. So whereas the
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Kennedy's were ultra into publicity, the Scalles were incredibly quiet
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and flew very below the radar. So you know, there
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are these pictures that you have. The Kennedy's and the
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Scales never got along but there are many pictures of
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Jack Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy flying around und in Great
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Lakes Carbon's planes, for instance, So they benefited somewhat from
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the association, but there was always discomfort between the families.
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Does that help it all about?
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Martha?
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Did you actually segued right into the next question I
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was going to ask, which is the Kennedy connection? The
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big question I guess that I have is to you
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feel like this kind of all is adjacent to the
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Kennedy curse that so many people have talked about over
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the year.
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As I say in the podcast, I think that I've
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thought about the scales a lot, and I've thought people
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talk about the misadventures of the Kennedys and how all
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of them died, and there was a certain level of recklessness.
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The scales of Kennedy didn't have much in common except
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for I think recklessness and fearlessness and a lot of Scalles.
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The Scaleles were.
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A very big drinking family, and a lot of Scaleles
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died in circumstances that I think could be partially related
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to their alcoholism. Sholes like dying. I think rush scycle
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went partying with his brother in law to celebrate the
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birth of his nephew, and they did an all nighter,
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a couple of all nighters in the weekend, and his
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and his brother in law, his brother in law's daughter
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I think, went to wake him up in the morning
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and he was dead.
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He died. He died.
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I think he died literally from a hangover. And there's
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a number of stories in the Skeyholes background like this.
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There was an aunt who died choking on a piece
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of shish Kebob George Skaykle, the patriarch, and his wife
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Big Anne, were killed in an airplane crash in one
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of the great late planes, which was obviously horrible. And
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then the person who took over the company, his son,
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George Junior, about a decade and a half later, and
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I think nineteen sixty eight, died in a small plane crash.
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I think that it's I often thought to myself, Is
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it possible that in nineteen sixty when these two families
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were united, that the church in Saint Mary's on Greenwich
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Avenue and granted Its possible that the Scalicell curse passed
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into the Kennedys. Obviously there have been Kennedy fatalities before that.
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But I think that if you're looking at body counts,
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I think the Scaleles definitely are equal to the Kennedys
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in terms of body count for misadventures.
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You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back
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after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
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mindover Murder. Funny when you mentioned the private plane thing,
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I just winced, because a lot of moneyed people end
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up dying in these small plane accidents, whereas traveling on
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a major carrier rarely do you end up dead. But
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it's amazing how many people, including members of the Kennedy family,
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have been killed in small plane crashes.
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I know, isn't it?
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And rock stars and helicopters. I've never want to get
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in a helicopter. No, I yeah, it's no. It's absolutely amazing,
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And I think it brings up a point, which is
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this is I think people I think naturally, having never
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heard Michael Skickle's voice or never heard and tell a story,
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I think it's very difficult, considering the privilege that these
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people were brought up in to have anything any kind
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of empathy. But I think Kristin, you've listened to the podcast.
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I think that Michael has a really tragic story. It's
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a bit poor, little rich kid, but really horrific in
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so many ways he did.
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And when I went into the podcast, I went into
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it with the I think the same level of understanding
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that a lot of people have just said.
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It had happened.
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He had been accused of murder, he had been convicted
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of it, and he had served time in jail, and
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I didn't know much beyond that. I also knew that
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Mark Furman had written a book about it, and I
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grew up in the age of the Sims trial.
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I definitely knew who Mark Furman was.
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But I was incredibly surprised listening to your podcast to
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learn to Terre is virtually no evidence against Michael Skakel
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for the murder her mostly, and I think a lot
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of people beyond virtually.
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I think it's like there's no it's certainly there's no
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forensic evidence in the case, but there's I think no
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evidence really, uh, And yeah.
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That was crazy. I was listening and I kept going,
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there's where's the smoking gun. There's got to be a
396
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smoking gun. What got this guy convicted in the first place?
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And the more that I listened, the more that I realized,
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Oh my god, it said he had a crappy lawyer.
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00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:42.759
He did have a crappy lawyer, and he had a
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very and I think I think he also had a
401
00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.839
very motivated public, which put a lot of pressure on
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the state of Connecticut. And I think that one of
403
00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:56.119
the people I interview in this is Linda Kenny Bowden,
404
00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:58.759
who was part of Michael's defense team at some point.
405
00:21:58.799 --> 00:22:01.519
She's very well known defense lawyer and she at one
406
00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:03.559
point was working on Michael's team, and she's brilliant and
407
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if only Michael had hired her, he would have been acquitted.
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But what Linda told me was, and I think that
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this gets into some of the themes of the podcast,
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is that when the law is concerned defense attorneys who
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work for high profile clients, they call it a high
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profile exception, in that frequently the law will be ignored.
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In the case of this, Michael should have been tried
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as he was fifteen years old when the crime occurred,
415
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but he wasn't tried as he was tried as an adult.
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And the reason he was tried as an adult, the
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reason why the judge, the juvenile judge passed it up
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to the superior court. Was she said, even though if
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he had been tried as a juvenile, I think the biggest,
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most extreme sentence would have been two years in prison.
421
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They said, given that he's forty three years old, we
422
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wouldn't have any facilities in the state of Connecticut to
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put a forty three year old adolescent.
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Oh so these are for practical considerations, not but the
425
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law would work exactly.
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Yeah, but this is the high profile exception because nobody
427
00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:09.799
wanted this guy to Nobody wanted another Kennedy to go free.
428
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And for me, the greatest irony in this case, and
429
00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:15.480
I'm sorry if I'm skipping around a bit, the gretest
430
00:23:16.119 --> 00:23:19.640
the greatest irony in this case is that is my
431
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:23.079
perception of the case, was that Michael was indeed another
432
00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:28.599
beneficiary of all of whatever gifts the Kennedys have to
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free for To get, for instance, Teddy Kennedy, do you
434
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:34.039
have to be able to forget about chap equintic to
435
00:23:34.039 --> 00:23:36.319
get Teddy Kennedy not charged for cheap equitting to get
436
00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:39.440
William Kennedy Smith to walk on rape charges. The great
437
00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:43.359
irony of this is that Michael Skagald, when he was
438
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in tried in two thousand and two, was in heated
439
00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:51.559
battle with the Kennedy family that Kennedy's hated him, Bobby's
440
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:57.720
brothers hated him. Bobby's brothers literally Bobby's older brother Joe,
441
00:23:57.960 --> 00:24:02.319
who was the who was a congressman from Boston, he
442
00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:05.640
had taken he had inherited the seat from Tip O'Neil,
443
00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:09.519
who had taken Jack Kennedy's seat because Bobby Kennedy, Bobby
444
00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:11.960
Kennedy was probably smarter than his older brother, and he
445
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had the name. But the fact that Bobby Kennedy in
446
00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:18.200
the early eighties was arrested for heroin possession, I think
447
00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:20.880
it was deemed by Ethel, who I think was the
448
00:24:20.920 --> 00:24:23.000
one who probably made a lot of decisions about who
449
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was going to be the next Kennedy to go all
450
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:28.680
the way, decided that it was not Bobby's turn, and
451
00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:31.039
that Bobby, as somebody who had just been arrested for
452
00:24:31.039 --> 00:24:34.480
heroin possession, was unelectable. So I went to Joe, and
453
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:36.119
for a variety of reasons that I go into in
454
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:41.880
the podcast, Joe Kennedy believes that Michael Skakele was responsible
455
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for his political career ending. He was going to run
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for governor of Massachusetts, and because of a scandal that
457
00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:52.359
he was engulfed in that involved his brother, Michael Kennedy
458
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sleeping with a babysitter who he may have been sleeping
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with since she was I think fourteen or fifteen years old,
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his campaign was engulfed and it died, and Joe Kennedy,
461
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:06.599
and this was very shortly before all this stuff happened
462
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:09.279
with Michael's prosecution, Joe Kennedy was very much convinced that
463
00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:12.079
Michael Skakell had been the source of this story that
464
00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:17.079
had brought down his own political career. And ultimately, after
465
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:20.200
this scandal broke, about six months after this scandal broke,
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Michael Kennedy, who was the the Kennedy brother who had
467
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supposedly been having an affair with his fifteen year old babysitter,
468
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skied into a tree and died on I think New
469
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Year's Eve. And certain members, as Michael has told me,
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and I absolutely think this is true, certain members of
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the Kennedy family, including some of Bobby's brothers, including Joe Kennedy,
472
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:43.519
think that Michael Skeakeele was not only responsible for killing
473
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his political career, but Michael Kennedy would not have killed,
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not have skied into that tree, had that scandal not broken,
475
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that his head was elsewhere or something. And so there
476
00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:57.079
were certain members of the Kennedy family who not only
477
00:25:57.079 --> 00:26:00.319
thought that Michael Skeakell was responsible for the death of
478
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.319
Joe Kennedy's career, they also thought that he was responsible
479
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for the death of their beloved brother. And this is
480
00:26:05.799 --> 00:26:08.319
where we were in two thousand and two when Michael Skeakell.
481
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When I assumed that Michael Skekele was getting all the
482
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benefits of being a Kennedy, the Kennedys, I think, I
483
00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:16.880
don't Michael Skekele is convinced that Kennedy's had something to
484
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:23.599
do with prosecution. I I tend to think that maybe
485
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:25.839
there's something to it. But what I do know is
486
00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:27.079
that there are a lot of Kennedy who would have
487
00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:28.359
been happy to see him behind bars.
488
00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:32.839
And do you think it's credible to make the claim
489
00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:35.480
that somehow the Kennedys were pulling the levers of power
490
00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:39.440
behind the scenes in order to see Michael Skeakell.
491
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:45.640
Charged for murder that had happened decades before. I think
492
00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:48.279
the timing if you look at the timing. You know
493
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:50.680
what's greatly it was very ironic about this, and Bobby
494
00:26:50.680 --> 00:26:54.599
wrote about and framed is that this is I think
495
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:57.319
the one conspiracy that Bobby Kennedy puts no stock in
496
00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:00.880
is the fact that his family had it in Michael Kennedy.
497
00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:06.559
But I look at the timing of and certain political
498
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:09.599
machinations that happened. Basically, one of two things had to
499
00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:15.319
have happened. That Mark Furhman came out with a book
500
00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:20.319
in nineteen ninety eight or maybe late ninety seven that
501
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:24.160
for the first time blamed Michael Skekel publicly for the murder.
502
00:27:24.440 --> 00:27:25.440
Now, the one.
503
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:28.079
Theory is that this book was and I don't think
504
00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:29.640
it ever made the New York Times bestseller list.
505
00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:30.400
It was a big book.
506
00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:34.000
But I think that on its face, you could say
507
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:35.640
Mark Furman came out with this book and put a
508
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:37.160
lot of pressure and did a lot of media and
509
00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:39.119
put a lot of pressure on the authorities. And he said,
510
00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:41.039
he went on TV and said, I've given you a
511
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:42.920
roadmap for the prosecution. All you have to do is
512
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:47.799
take this book and run with it. The primary investigator
513
00:27:47.799 --> 00:27:49.599
in the case has said that there's no validity to
514
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:52.519
that that Mark Urman's book had nothing to do with
515
00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:58.160
our decision to prosecute Michael Skekeel, but the timing is
516
00:27:58.200 --> 00:28:01.599
so interesting. Michael Skekell has a very specific theory about
517
00:28:01.599 --> 00:28:05.480
how it worked, and it's actually not that crazy when
518
00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:08.720
he goes into it and involves several figures, several prominent
519
00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:13.920
Kennedy figures and several prominent Connecticut politicians. And I have
520
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:17.440
to say I didn't believe it for many years, but
521
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:20.119
actually just putting the dates down and looking at the dates,
522
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:22.880
it was just so peculiar. When it came late in
523
00:28:22.920 --> 00:28:25.759
my reporting. I'll just share this very briefly. Late in
524
00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:29.200
my reporting, I came across an unpublished story that was
525
00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:31.559
actually entered into evidence. And I don't know if anybody
526
00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:35.279
ever really figured, really understood the significance of it.
527
00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:36.119
Michael Skekell.
528
00:28:37.359 --> 00:28:40.640
The Grand Jury was convened to look into Michael Skekele
529
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:44.279
and Michael Skekell only in nineteen ninety eight. I found
530
00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:50.480
an unpublished article that was written by Len Levitt, who
531
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:53.480
was the journalists who covered it most. He's now dead,
532
00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:55.359
but he worked for Newsday and he did a lot.
533
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:57.039
He had a lot of scoops on the thing, but
534
00:28:57.119 --> 00:29:01.599
he had I found this unpublished article from It has
535
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:05.000
to be based on all of the identifying details in it.
536
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:07.480
It has to be in either November ninety six or
537
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:11.160
early nineteen ninety seven, in which Frank Garr, who was
538
00:29:11.240 --> 00:29:15.240
the only primarily and only investigator in the Michael Skekele case,
539
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:21.240
is quoted as saying, and this is about a year
540
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:23.799
before the grand jury was convenient on Michael Skekell. I'm
541
00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:28.599
ninety nine point five percent convinced Thomas Skekel did this. Now,
542
00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:31.920
Thomas Cake would be Michael Skeakele's brother, and he was
543
00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:34.640
for the first decade of the investigation the prime suspect
544
00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:38.759
in the case. Michael Skekele only became a suspect in
545
00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:42.799
the case around ninety seven or ninety eight, and for
546
00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:45.319
a decade his brother had bene suspect for a decade.
547
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:48.680
Another person in benic suspect a guy named Kenneth Littleton,
548
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:53.880
who had been a tutor who was staying with the
549
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:56.720
Scalhles on October thirtieth, nineteen seventy five. It was his
550
00:29:56.759 --> 00:29:59.559
first night in the house and based on a lot
551
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:04.880
of real creepy, horrible things he did subsequent to that date,
552
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:06.839
I think the police started looking at him as a
553
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:10.079
likely suspect because he had a long history of mental
554
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:13.000
illness and and I think crimes that you would say
555
00:30:13.240 --> 00:30:17.519
had a sexual nature very much. But so just the
556
00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:20.599
idea that Michael Skeekeell, that this was a twenty something
557
00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:26.799
year investigation, Michael Skekell was not a suspect until the
558
00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:28.759
very last minute, to me, is curious.
559
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:30.559
It definitely is?
560
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.880
It definitely is that every episode that I listened to,
561
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:37.440
I was just waiting for the smoking gun, and I
562
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:41.680
never got one because it's very clear that there isn't one. No,
563
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.480
there's so and every other suspect that your name sounded
564
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:49.839
more credible to me than Michael. Yeah, absolutely crazy ahead.
565
00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:53.880
So this tutor, why wasn't the tutor ever charged?
566
00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:58.440
The tutor was not charged because the Connecticut investigators the
567
00:30:58.559 --> 00:31:01.559
most compelling evidence they had against the tutor was the
568
00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:06.440
fact that he kept blowing polygraph after polygraph. And I
569
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:10.160
consulted for the podcast A guy was considered, I think,
570
00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:13.079
probably the foremost polygraph expert in the country, and after
571
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:16.680
talking to him, I don't put much faith in a
572
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:20.039
lot of polygraphs except as a tool to use in
573
00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:22.680
a room to basically wrench a confession from somebody for
574
00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:25.920
the cops to leave the room, come back in and
575
00:31:25.960 --> 00:31:28.440
say to a guy, pull the paper out and say, buddy,
576
00:31:28.599 --> 00:31:31.319
you totally failed this. And somebody who was legitimately guilty
577
00:31:31.400 --> 00:31:33.920
might get freaked out and confess at that point. But
578
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:37.240
in terms of actually pronouncing somebody guilty or innocent, I
579
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:42.079
don't think that scientifically they have much validity. So the
580
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:44.599
only thing they really had on Ken was a bunch
581
00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:47.519
of disturbing behavior that had very little to do with
582
00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:50.279
Martha Moxley's murder but had a lot to do with
583
00:31:50.920 --> 00:31:54.839
crimes that they'd committed elsewhere. And all they had were
584
00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:59.920
these polygraphs, and I think that they never had a
585
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:01.920
enough They kept working on him.
586
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:02.720
They had a.
587
00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:06.279
Variety of ruses that involved his ex wife trying to
588
00:32:06.279 --> 00:32:08.079
get him on the phone. They taped him for hours
589
00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:10.480
and hours trying to get him to confess. They had
590
00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:13.079
no case unless they got a confession, and I think
591
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:16.759
that the way that they convicted Michael Skeykeele, I think
592
00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:18.880
that by the time they convicted Michael Skekele in two
593
00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:22.319
thousand and two, they knew that the case had been
594
00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:24.640
so botched there were no forensics to speak up. The
595
00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:27.720
only way that they could get any conviction on this
596
00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:30.640
was going to be through some sort of confession, and
597
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:35.119
the only evidence they had against Michael were two witnesses
598
00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:39.079
who Michael had met at I guess you could call
599
00:32:39.160 --> 00:32:39.960
a reformatory.
600
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:40.640
Michael had.
601
00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:44.599
Like many of his relatives, Michael had major alcohol problems,
602
00:32:44.799 --> 00:32:50.160
especially after his mother died in nineteen seventy three. And Michael,
603
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:52.359
I think he said he probably became an alcoholic when
604
00:32:52.359 --> 00:32:55.440
he was thirteen or fourteen. He's certainly a troublemaker. And
605
00:32:56.559 --> 00:33:03.519
when he was I think seventeen sixteen, at seventeen, he
606
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:07.160
had a really bad drunk driving accident in upstate New York.
607
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:11.599
And the way that the Scapehald attorney got him got
608
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:14.960
into escape prison and conviction was to send him off
609
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:18.079
to a school called the Alan School in Maine, which
610
00:33:18.279 --> 00:33:20.359
was you hear a lot about these schools now Paris.
611
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.599
Hilton did a lot about the school that she went to.
612
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:25.000
There are these schools that I think very wealthy parents
613
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:27.440
would send their kids off to. They would send them
614
00:33:27.480 --> 00:33:29.920
a lot of money, and these places, I think I
615
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:31.400
remember they used to call it tough Love.
616
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:32.000
Do you remember?
617
00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:35.960
That was the But this was this was a place
618
00:33:36.000 --> 00:33:38.640
that was run by a guy named Joe Ritchie. I
619
00:33:38.680 --> 00:33:41.319
grew up in Maine and the Alon Schools in Poland, Maine,
620
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:43.359
which was in the sticks of Maine. But Joe Ritchie
621
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:44.960
was a kind of a famous character in Maine.
622
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:45.279
He was.
623
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:50.480
A he looked like a mobster, although he always claimed
624
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:53.799
he wasn't a mobster. But he was this thirty five
625
00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:59.599
year old former junkie who had gone to prison early
626
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:02.960
in his career, early in his life for robbery, but
627
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:06.079
somehow turned his life around, didn't really turn his life around,
628
00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:07.960
but turned its life around and created it and came
629
00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:11.360
up with the school based on the Sinanon, based on
630
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:12.519
the principles of Sinanon.
631
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:14.679
I don't know if you guys know a thing about sinatmas.
632
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:16.599
Oh yes, yeah, oh yes.
633
00:34:17.079 --> 00:34:20.559
So this was this was a school that had that
634
00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:25.280
involved a lot of violence, a lot of humiliation, and
635
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:28.840
it was a I can't describe the horrors of the
636
00:34:28.840 --> 00:34:29.599
Alon School.
637
00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:32.719
You described it in the podcast, and my job was
638
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:33.599
on the floor.
639
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:37.280
Yeah, I believeable. The famous essay is David Sedaris. I
640
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:39.719
was just going out reading an essay his sister. I
641
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:41.360
think it was his younger sister had gone to a
642
00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:46.239
lawn because she'd run away from school, and Sidara said
643
00:34:46.519 --> 00:34:48.719
that there wasn't a day that his sister didn't mention
644
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.760
the trauma that she'd experienced at Alon, and she ultimately
645
00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:54.079
committed suicide. And I think I think she might have
646
00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:58.360
been in her late fifties. But the trauma that people
647
00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:01.840
experienced at Alan was so horrible, and Michael absolutely experienced this.
648
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:06.760
But the two witnesses that they found to say that
649
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:09.320
Michael had confessed at Alan were two people who had
650
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:11.960
never gotten sober, Unlike Michael, Michael got sober in nineteen
651
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:15.119
eighty three. What they found were I think the equivalent
652
00:35:15.239 --> 00:35:16.559
of what do they call them, I'm.
653
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:18.519
Sorry, sound like Joie house snitches to make.
654
00:35:18.679 --> 00:35:20.559
Exactly That's what I was looking for. The term.
655
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:22.960
They were essentially jailhouse snitches since they weren't in jail
656
00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:27.000
the prossect. The investigator instead dangled money in front of
657
00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:29.320
them and said that there's a currently one hundred thousand
658
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:31.960
dollars reward leading to the conviction of Michael Skakeel. And
659
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.000
these guys got up and testified that they had heard
660
00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:37.519
a confession many other Alan students who testified in the
661
00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:41.239
trial said on the stand what I heard many times
662
00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:44.800
from many skkell from many Alan students, which was that
663
00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:49.239
even though Michael was beaten, and even though Joe Ritchie
664
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:51.920
basically had taken it upon himself to try to wrench
665
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.159
some sort of confession from Michael by having people beat
666
00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:58.039
him and say you confess to this murder, that all
667
00:35:58.039 --> 00:36:00.920
these other Alan students said, Michael never confessed. The only
668
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:03.320
they would beat the living shit out of him, and
669
00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:06.440
the closest he would get was to say, I don't know,
670
00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:09.599
I don't know. And Michael told me that he found out.
671
00:36:09.679 --> 00:36:11.760
He realized that the only way he could get the
672
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:14.440
beatings to stop was to give them some sort of answer,
673
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:17.119
and I don't know, for some reason got the beatings
674
00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:20.880
to stop. I'm convinced that the prosecute, I'm convinced that
675
00:36:20.920 --> 00:36:25.559
the investigator, Frank gr after listening to the interview with
676
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:31.199
the first with one of the two guys who testified
677
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:33.840
against Michael, and listening to the interview when initially the
678
00:36:33.880 --> 00:36:36.760
man says, I got to tell you, Frank, I never
679
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:40.960
heard a confession, and the prodding the prosecutor, the prodding
680
00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:43.559
that the prosecutor does to him. This man was going
681
00:36:43.599 --> 00:36:48.920
through some medical issues, and Frank Garr, this cop from Connecticut,
682
00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:50.400
gets him on the phone and says, oh, I've heard
683
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.519
you got your wife told me you have some medical issues.
684
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:55.159
The guy said, yeah, I've got some shoulder issues. And
685
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:57.480
he said, yeah, I can't do my job anymore. I'm mechanic.
686
00:36:57.519 --> 00:36:58.800
I'm not gonna be able to do it. And Frank
687
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:00.760
Carr says to him, you got to make some plans,
688
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:05.679
don't you. And the plans he made, yeah, and so corrupt. Yeah,
689
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:10.840
incredibly corrupt. So the only evidence they had I think
690
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:14.239
I found after going through this case, I find it
691
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:17.920
very difficult to believe that the Connecticut authorities honestly believed
692
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:20.800
that they had the right guy. That's the biggest unanswered question.
693
00:37:21.039 --> 00:37:23.199
None of the people, none of the people who prosecuted
694
00:37:23.239 --> 00:37:26.360
the case, would talk to me. But if I really
695
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:31.039
the big question I have for them, assuming that they
696
00:37:31.079 --> 00:37:34.559
went through the same material that I did, was did
697
00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:36.599
you really think that you had the right guy? And
698
00:37:36.920 --> 00:37:38.800
why did you do this? Why did you not there's
699
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:42.280
something called prosecutorial discretion. Why did you take this case?
700
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:44.760
Because I think that they had to know after going
701
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:47.039
through the evidence that they were very much trying to
702
00:37:47.119 --> 00:37:50.559
convict an innocent man, and I find that really disturbing.
703
00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:55.920
Join us again next time as we continue our conversation
704
00:37:56.119 --> 00:38:01.079
with journalist Andrew Goldman discussing his new podcast, Asked Dead
705
00:38:01.239 --> 00:38:05.400
Certain the Martha Moxley Murders. That'll be next time here
706
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:06.599
on mind Over Murder.
707
00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:19.800
Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
708
00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:21.320
Another Dog Productions.
709
00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:25.199
Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
710
00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:28.000
Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
711
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:30.719
Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.
712
00:38:31.239 --> 00:38:35.119
Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
713
00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:39.079
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714
00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:41.880
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715
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716
00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:46.559
And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
717
00:38:46.599 --> 00:38:48.199
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718
00:38:48.679 --> 00:39:15.039
Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.