1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,960
Hello and welcome to the Label Sessions Presents Podcast.
2
00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:14,280
Label Sessions is the world's leading innovation expert network.
3
00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,520
In this series you will meet some of the most interesting leaders anywhere, from across the
4
00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,920
world's business, design, tech, culture and sustainability.
5
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,200
All signed to the Label Sessions roster.
6
00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:30,240
To find out more about our work, helping brands and institutions around the world take on
7
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:35,480
their big challenges for the future, head to LabelSessions.com to find out more.
8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:42,440
For now, enjoy the podcast.
9
00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:44,320
We are thrilled to have you join us Robin.
10
00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,920
Thank you so much for joining the Label Sessions Presents Podcast.
11
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,960
So, could you introduce yourself to our audience and maybe kind of a share what you're named
12
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:51,960
for?
13
00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,480
I'm a strategist and I'm going to use that word with this like pause because we like
14
00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,400
it in the sense that like it's part of a matter.
15
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,160
Could you end up in this debate between strategy and creativity?
16
00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:09,880
And there's like almost these are two different things but in reality I kind of think strategy
17
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:10,880
is a creative discipline.
18
00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,280
I kind of have always been somebody who's going to put those two things together.
19
00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,320
But I think there's certain people like to kind of create those caps.
20
00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:23,080
So for me the simplest way to describe it sometimes is strategy.
21
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:28,560
But in truth, like where I sort of articulate is like I'm a curious person who sort of
22
00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:34,720
tried to build a career helping businesses or business leaders to kind of take on some
23
00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:39,000
of the kind of biggest challenges that they've got today and really sort of find new growth
24
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:40,840
and new opportunities for growth.
25
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,280
You know, brackets make more money, I suppose would be another half of the kind of sentence
26
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:50,560
through that kind of brand strategy, marketing activities and kind of bringing together those
27
00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:56,080
two worlds of strategy and creativity to kind of find the thing that I find to do the most
28
00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:00,160
of is bring those two bits together to connect business ideas and customers to something
29
00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:05,800
I guess about being true with what I've been in the kind of tech space, in the kind of
30
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,720
marketing space or in the kind of leadership space as well.
31
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,600
I think the one thread that I've probably got to in the recent years of this sort of
32
00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,640
new client I guess, is all the things I've been to do.
33
00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:20,880
I think that's a really interesting way of looking at things with strategy and creativity.
34
00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,600
I'm curious about your perspective with your kind of experience with kind of innovation
35
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,960
and growth with companies.
36
00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:33,320
Product can often sit with like a tech team and brand strategy can sit with say like a
37
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:34,320
marketing team.
38
00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,280
It's not always that way, but it often is.
39
00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:44,280
Can you maybe kind of just talk to us a bit around these worlds of product and brand strategy?
40
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,440
What it means for you being at that kind of intersection?
41
00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:53,120
I'm going to force myself to be at that intersection because you're right, most organisations are
42
00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,680
structured in different ways, but they do tend to have those two things separate and
43
00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,560
there's always reasons for it, right?
44
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,480
Because to your point, the product, the thing that you're building on often is, you know,
45
00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:08,000
the sort of a line that's kind of tech and operation part of this is brand in that sense.
46
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,040
It depends on the organisation's thinking about brand versus brand and marketing since
47
00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:13,520
within the marketing function.
48
00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,640
And like most organisations just aren't very good at kind of joining, never mind these
49
00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:19,320
two things are the rest of the stuff.
50
00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,200
So you do end up in this place where these two things are separate.
51
00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:28,720
And I think the reason why I find that, and I'm really finding an example of where it's
52
00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,920
working well, I should have brought some extra trash.
53
00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:35,920
Some of the examples, I think back to something where we did, we're fortune money actually,
54
00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:40,120
the way we thought about brand and product and actually having those two things quite
55
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:45,960
closely aligned, I think, whether it's incredibly successful, they did over the last five, six,
56
00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:46,960
seven years.
57
00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,080
But the issue sometimes for these two separate worlds is like, you know, brand is very, very
58
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:58,360
good understanding of what an organisation is, why it exists, what its purpose is.
59
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,320
But that doesn't always then translate into the things that that business data goes and
60
00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:03,320
does, right?
61
00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,640
Might be how it talks about itself, how it communicates, how it markets, and yes, what
62
00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,520
it values, you know, like, but that doesn't necessarily always translate directly into
63
00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,520
the product and the experience that it delivers.
64
00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,600
I think the value that you get is when you manage to join these two things up and you've
65
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,160
got a product team that often understands the customer that it's trying to create, or
66
00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,440
they're increasing with the floor, and the business in which it's in, why that business
67
00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:28,320
exists, and you can build products that genuinely deliver most of the business and the customer.
68
00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:33,520
And you find that actually, by having a deeper understanding of the brand and what an organisation
69
00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:38,160
you create deeper ideas and better ideas and things that people then take to market.
70
00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:42,280
But those two worlds don't tend to be in sync very often.
71
00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:46,960
I think quite often it's just okay making opportunity for them actually to kind of come
72
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:47,960
together, right?
73
00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:52,960
Bringing brand teams involved into your product design and having a product teams, adding
74
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,440
a deeper understanding on the business stand for us about why it exists.
75
00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,640
And that's also kind of brand and the business strategy side of it.
76
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:05,120
You mentioned like Virgin Money, who you think has done, brought in kind of a brand and product
77
00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:10,680
really well together because the brand really feels like this skeleton that holds a lot
78
00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,560
of things together and kind of drives the organisation.
79
00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:20,920
It was really hard for people to, if they think about brand, excuse me, in like a non-traditional
80
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,760
way, to hire for that.
81
00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,560
Because when people think about like brand managers and brand leaders, it must be really
82
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:34,160
hard to like hire for, I guess, you know, a new way of doing brand, a new way of approaching
83
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:35,160
it.
84
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,720
Yeah, and I don't know whether I'm sort of projecting and just trying to create this
85
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,880
new world that I think is actually quite interesting, right?
86
00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,280
Because you're right, most people like in a brand space will come for a communication,
87
00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:49,960
sort of a pure brand, not necessary to making a product design for an innovation, a customer
88
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:50,960
bit.
89
00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,120
But I think that's, I don't know, I don't think, I generally think that's where there's
90
00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:55,120
value, right?
91
00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,440
And I think a lot of the, because we will find there's a lot of, you know, brand strategies
92
00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,440
that are a bit of a brand, you can see, what they're very, very good at is uncovering a
93
00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:07,640
really interesting thing, whether that's an insight or a truth about a market or a customer
94
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:08,640
base or a product, whatever it is, right?
95
00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,200
They're very good at finding that and it creatively creates something more often than
96
00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,200
communicate, right?
97
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,280
Well, they're not very good at this, they're turning that into something really like a
98
00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:18,280
product to an experience.
99
00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:22,280
What product teams are very, very good at is taking your customer need and turning that
100
00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:27,200
into a functional thing that, you know, a customer may or may not want, but what they're not
101
00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,920
necessarily very good at or very well tuned into is connecting that product back into
102
00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:31,920
something bigger, right?
103
00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,840
Whether that's something bigger is the organization, in a kind of non-commercial sense, or into
104
00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:41,880
something bigger, a culture and society that gives it bigger meaning around the brand.
105
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,480
And they find somebody or teams like any of you who can cut across those bits and kind
106
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,720
of bring something like a brand thinking into product design, and like a product design
107
00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:50,720
thinking to get a brand.
108
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,360
And I think, yeah, they're pretty products that sort of both land in market very effectively,
109
00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,200
but to the last as well, actually could be steep.
110
00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,720
What I hear and what I take from that is really this about kind of a transcending like conventional
111
00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:04,720
boundaries.
112
00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,760
And I think your focus and interest is kind of a connecting kind of ideas, culture and
113
00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:15,720
people in this kind of a, what is actually a really probably a dynamic working existence
114
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:16,720
for people in big brands?
115
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,960
I had this idea, sort of the analogy of like sometimes you're treated like chapters in
116
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:21,960
a book, right?
117
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,960
Like there's a star in the middle of the day, you do the kind of brand bit, the strategy
118
00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,440
bit, product bit, experience bit, no acting bit, right?
119
00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,400
But in reality, they're all just characters in the same story.
120
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,520
And actually they all kind of need to connect together and weave together.
121
00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,240
And the interesting stuff happens at the intersect, I think, of all of these things, right?
122
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,840
And product design, product and design brand.
123
00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:45,680
So I think if you can find the space between, that's what I think interesting stuff takes
124
00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:46,680
to happen.
125
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,680
But more, yeah, it does take both cultural shifts, right?
126
00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,680
In terms of how an organization thinks about itself.
127
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,320
There's a practical function of things in terms of how an organization structures itself
128
00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:58,680
to allow that things to happen.
129
00:07:58,680 --> 00:07:59,680
Right?
130
00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,560
We need to like, ownership and C-suite, then to have teams of structure and the ways in
131
00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,160
which an organization lacks itself, kind of like, yeah, live in that kind of slight
132
00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,680
chaotic dynamic space, allow these teams of people to interact more readily.
133
00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:18,320
And it does currently, most businesses, for good reasons, have structure and that structure
134
00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:19,320
is valuable.
135
00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,160
But I think sometimes we can give it a little structure a little bit.
136
00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:27,720
I wanted to ask you if there were industry practices you saw that like, needed to change?
137
00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,120
I don't know the specific practices, like, well, I do that.
138
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,520
I think it's a general principle, like embracing a bit more chaos, I think, because you've lost
139
00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:36,520
that belief in.
140
00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,520
And there's a new answer around size of scale and the bigger you get, the slight, you do
141
00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,920
need to have some sense of structure to launch for the thing to keep moving forward.
142
00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:44,920
Right?
143
00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:49,320
And I mean, the simplest thing it comes down to is like, it's an old Barack Obama quote,
144
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,960
I think, which was kind of like, yeah, we're still done when we start caring against the
145
00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:52,960
credit.
146
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,080
And I think there's a little bit in that, right?
147
00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:00,520
Whether your organization or agency working with a client or whatever, if we can just
148
00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:05,520
worry a bit more about what it is we're trying to do and a little bit like, who's doing it?
149
00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:06,520
Right?
150
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,120
And like, you know, then I think we actually, we do get more stuff done.
151
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,120
Right?
152
00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,600
And so, we might be a philosophical cultural change that we need to kind of make some of
153
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,920
that might just be then down to being a little bit, a little bit less restrictive on the
154
00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,960
command roles, responsibilities of people's and teams and kind of playing to can skills
155
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,840
and experience and kind of combined skills and experience, such like how we, how we great
156
00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,320
team, let me, at a base level, like cross functional team, we told them a long time,
157
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:31,320
those are great.
158
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,560
Those are really good ways to, but quite often you find they're very orchestrated and somebody
159
00:09:35,560 --> 00:09:37,320
still needs to be sat at the top of the pyramid.
160
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,320
And like then, you were sat at the top of the pyramid, tensed to have some set of an
161
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:45,320
agency in life, it's one part of the organization, you sort of lose, you lose so the value of
162
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:46,320
that chaos.
163
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:53,200
And I think it comes out to trust and culture at its base level, so tools and then, yeah,
164
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,440
just thinking more about what is it we're trying to collectively do, the job title
165
00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,680
that I've currently got on or the part of the organization that I sit in.
166
00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:04,800
And that does get harder, the harder you get up because, you know, at some point there's
167
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,760
a performance metric, so as a symmetric criteria, somebody's going to be evaluated on.
168
00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,280
And I think changing some of that might actually be quite helpful, like being able to free
169
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,440
your instance of how we evaluate success, particularly senior levels, might allow things
170
00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:21,480
to kind of cascade down and give teams and into a just more autonomy and freedom, to
171
00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,440
kind of step aside the box, right, and step across and look across the organization and
172
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,040
go make friends with the person that designed team, if you're, you know, even think that
173
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,960
product design team sometimes sit incredibly separate from each other, they're fundamentally
174
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:39,040
part, they're same part of the business, looking at same as a marketing set and probably all
175
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,600
of these things just need to be better and more comfortable sitting together and more
176
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:49,600
biased and move whether that's through structure, process, performance metrics, better in my
177
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,720
mind, if you've got a common, you know, the thing you do need to do is a common framework,
178
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,680
right, and by that I sort of mean broad strategy, brand, I think there's been actually the
179
00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:02,240
kind of guardrails, it means we're all heading, you know, the bump, the bump, the analogy
180
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,320
of the ball, we're all heading in the right direction, we can bounce off it, you know,
181
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,200
we're all going to be completely heading off in different directions. We have that, kind
182
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,080
of what happens in the middle, I think we can leave to a little bit of luck and certain
183
00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:14,080
liberties sometimes.
184
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,400
Let me ask you this, you're someone that's navigated a lot of corporate environments
185
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:23,760
and the corporate landscape you've worked within that, but also you've kind of stayed
186
00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:30,760
rooted in creativity in different ways, both in your working life, but also I know you're
187
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:35,160
an incredible photographer and you're really passionate about photography and making and
188
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,760
the craft of photography and I guess the craft of creativity in a way. And I think some,
189
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:46,000
and I think I just want to like take a minute and talk about those two worlds because then
190
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,000
I think you very comfortably inhabit both of them.
191
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:56,040
Yeah, I mean, it's been, I mean, a late, late realization, but for the first year, I think
192
00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,840
it was the first part of my career, I probably was very corporate, I sort of lived on that,
193
00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,720
I sort of grew up, grew up in the kind of big consultancy, right, I had a sense here
194
00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:10,720
and started spending a big chunk of time there and was on that corporate career ladder. And
195
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:15,440
it's probably recently, I mean, we moved to a small agency, I got back in big consultancy
196
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:21,960
through acquisition and then kind of working to work at a tech, scalar agency place again.
197
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:27,880
And I probably even have a back of that, that I kind of look at the common thread that has
198
00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,880
always been back in it, I'm creative in what I, in what I'm doing is a deep tech strategy,
199
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,760
right? I'm not a tech person at all. Like, weirdly, the idea of this today, why is all
200
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,960
mechanical so get right because I kind of like all the fancy new stuff scares me, right?
201
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,360
So give me something I can why, right? I like or why, right? Well, why it was also to, so
202
00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,960
let me do the synthesis of technology. And the thing that's been true through all of that
203
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,480
is like the thing that I can held on to is like, like, creative new ideas, right? So you can do
204
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,160
like, you know, deep tech, the thing I was trying to find was like, what's the most interesting
205
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:04,240
idea that's going to make this new platform relevant to somebody. But it's only, whether it's
206
00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,880
only ever been the fortune of old age, right? I'm going to kind of look back and kind of
207
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,920
see that that's the thing that I've inadvertently held on to is the bit that I can, I'm like,
208
00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,960
well, actually, that's the bit that I can't, I'm really interested in how do you bring, you know,
209
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,960
creativity as a kind of, as a way to transform large corporate organizations, I think there's
210
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,680
like, is so much of that already in place within these places, I guess, just how do you put it
211
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:32,840
on the market and find it, I guess, right? So the bit of like self learning in that in the sense
212
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:37,720
that I've kind of figured out the bit that I care most about. And like, I've been sort of
213
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:42,160
lucky in a lot of ways, I've been afforded the opportunity to kind of be that person, I suppose,
214
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:47,000
in the projects and the organizations that I've been in, you get inside, you know, big consultancy,
215
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,000
and small agency. So I don't know, I think it's just, you know, there's a little bit of self
216
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,720
reflection at the class, but while that, you know, I've become really happy, right, it comes to
217
00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:02,800
the point, the sort of thing that I can bring and for the past, those, the, the, the, the, the,
218
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,600
yeah, and they've afforded me that opportunity to, to play that role as a coach, right?
219
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:13,120
And, you know, and it's only adding back to some of the projects that we've been involved in. One
220
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:18,400
of the things I can get most joy at, it's when you find those, because I think there's a general
221
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,440
idea about creativity, right? Or creative, I want a lot of creative, right? I mean, I, like, all
222
00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,480
right, I think everybody's creative. I think that's the general starting point. I think some
223
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,400
people just learn to hold on to it for longer, right? The systems and the environments that
224
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,240
were in almost designed to be creativity. I've said a lot of things, right? Whereas like,
225
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,240
some of us either just learn to kind of hold on to it all over, or a little bit more belligerent,
226
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:42,880
so let them let it go. I don't know which one it is, right? Like, I can't sing, I can't play any
227
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,440
musical instruments, I can't draw. So it might form a creativity that works in a long way, right?
228
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:52,240
Our vision through photography, you know, in the truest sense, like, I'm not a creative person,
229
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,280
but I think, you know, the act of having ideas is creative, and I think the strategies that show
230
00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:00,320
having ideas that, you know, win. So that's, that's, you know, why I can blend those two worlds
231
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:00,840
together, right?
232
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:06,240
You said something really interesting to me around the, the, I guess your practice. So you like
233
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:13,680
final and, I guess, analog cameras, their antithesis of, of, you know, new tech, you know,
234
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:19,360
but I guess photography development. What do you, what do you do to photography? What do you
235
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:20,280
like about photography?
236
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:27,120
I mean, the classic and other thing is that it is my way of exploring, exploring my curious,
237
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:32,040
like making sense of stuff, right? Because it forces you, or forces me to get out,
238
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:37,760
out, out from behind this little desk and wander outside and go, right? And I think
239
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,600
photography is about finding stuff, right? That might be beautiful landscape. I started off
240
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,080
in landscape, but I actually did much more, kind of like street or good documentary type
241
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,280
stuff, like capturing life, I think, even just around the house, like taking pictures of the
242
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:55,000
boys and stuff, and I kind of just like capturing moments, I think, right? So it forces you to
243
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,400
go out and look, that's the first thing. And like, I enjoy that because it's like, I'm not
244
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:05,400
somebody who really sits, read lots of books, right? And like, if I would go into the world,
245
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,720
I'm just called wander, and I'll take pictures of something. And like, it's not really the act
246
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,960
of taking pictures that I enjoy as much, though, and that's a massive, it's a massive part of it,
247
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:19,800
but it's about just getting out there and see it and finding it looking. And it makes you look
248
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,480
closer at stuff. So you start to look at things, you're taking pictures of a building, look at
249
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,120
how that building's constructed, how the window frames are made, like tiny little bits of detail
250
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,200
that you would, like some might be an interesting picture, but that you'd never see if you didn't
251
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,800
do that, right? You just be wandering. And I just think there's an element of that that I just,
252
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:42,520
like I kind of need in my life, I need to kind of escape from screen and just get out into the
253
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:47,960
world a little bit, and just look at stuff. When you look at stuff, you see things you
254
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:53,480
don't necessarily see. And that's where you can let, you make good work in that, I think,
255
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,400
when you sort of train yourself to look at things in a different way. And I think we can apply that
256
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:03,800
by stretching creativity as well. Like, yeah, for those reasons, I'm getting out, seeing the world,
257
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,760
maybe coming back to something that might look good in the wall eventually.
258
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,840
Thinking about like strategy for a bit. So you've talked about what strategy means to you being,
259
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,480
like it's about the business of ideas. It's about what's next. It's about kind of connecting the
260
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,880
dots. What's the impact you've seen when a business doesn't have a clear strategy?
261
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,480
So it's so much time and strategy. We've so much time and money on it. But really, it can be one of
262
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:30,520
the most simplest things. It's like, we over complicated, I think, in a lot of ways. But you
263
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,800
do need something. You need some sort of framework. You can decide how lucrative you want that to be.
264
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:40,600
And I think that you're allowed to be the clear of the idea. It needs to be in itself,
265
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,120
right? So you need some sort of core through which you're looking at everything. And then,
266
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:49,320
yeah, it's not to happen in the middle of that. And so we continue. You can let happen. And I think
267
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:56,680
that that's the chaos, right? When you haven't got some sense of direction or framework or purpose
268
00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:01,480
or reason and intensity for what you're trying to do, that's the thing that go chaotically.
269
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,720
They're all there. Because there's no sense of community. There's no thread. Like, you think
270
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,800
about that. I don't remind, you know, you could have a strategy that thread runs through everything.
271
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,800
And things could be flailing off for any of the sides. But we haven't got that thread that pulls
272
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,840
everything together, which is something you just pull the string and everything times up.
273
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,960
You haven't got that. Everything goes everywhere. And that's when, you know,
274
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,560
that's when the lack of strategy is obvious, right? So just leaning onto that for a minute,
275
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:28,600
like, I'm just quite interested in this kind of a bridging the gap from strategy, from thinking
276
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:34,600
to doing, and that kind of a seesaw, the back and forth as you kind of progress a concept from
277
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:39,560
strategy into like realizing its ambition and the chaos that goes along with it.
278
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,080
You can just that language of like, because I think there's a slight fallacy that something
279
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,560
will fall into, which is like, there's a period of thinking, and then there's a period of doing,
280
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:54,040
right? You don't necessarily think that's true. I think. But one of the big things people want
281
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:59,160
this idea of what we have the strategy, or whatever vision strategy plan, right, these
282
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,840
different words, that's it. Let's go. We must be right. I think the truth is the first thing
283
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,480
advice like, well, never advice have a piece, right? That's the other thing I'll say. It's not
284
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:12,520
necessarily a piece of advice. The strategy won't be wrong. Right. And that's okay. But I think too
285
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:17,480
often people think about the right strategy can be one. What you need to do is like have a way in
286
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:23,640
which you start to execute on the belief for the bet, the idea that you have, and then being able to
287
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,760
change it, iterate on it, explore different avenues, be consciously in tune with what's
288
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:33,160
happening in the business of the market that allows you to adapt to us too often. Like,
289
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,160
is this sort of another terrible analogy of like a survey yacht race where all the yachts
290
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,680
select swimming around at the beginning and somebody goes, whistle and it goes, right?
291
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,520
The reality like that's the strategic fate of chaos and thinking and all of a sudden we're
292
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,280
off and running in the programs and play and everything's going to be fine now. But in reality,
293
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:54,440
that's just not how the world works. You look at the chaos that's going on in the world, like,
294
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,840
you know, we can't, we can't define a plan for the next six months, the next four years,
295
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:04,360
it's going to be action. But we have to find a way to play some bets, right? And those bets are
296
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:08,280
sort of an informed opinions or ideas about how we're going to win, right? And what our market
297
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,040
or industry rivers are trying to do. And they need a way of being able to click constantly,
298
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,600
to check back on whether those things, those things that we're doing are working or not,
299
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:21,000
and then adjust, right? And then the look, the old saying says, the vision stays the same,
300
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,520
strategy changes, particularly, right, which I think is still true. Like, the core belief that
301
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:29,720
thread is more like a brand, well, that's being a core purpose. That's where we're going. That's
302
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,440
that's what we're trying to be. That's who we aspire to be, we aspire to achieve. How we get there,
303
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,880
the strategy, the plan, the tactics change. And I think that we can iterate back on that and
304
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,760
redirect and pivot to you so that we're well-coined for issues is the important. And that's why the
305
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:51,000
sector is a brand important to so important because we can define this vision, this future,
306
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,560
send, you know, product design teams off for three years to go and create it and realize it by the
307
00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:00,360
time we build to the world shifted six months after. Right. And I think that that in things to
308
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:05,480
world that cycle is a brand important. Hearing what you've just said, it sounds like that idea of,
309
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,040
like, I guess, being in the moment and seeing things. What I'm hearing when you're talking
310
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:16,040
about strategies is actually it's not about this big overarching goal North Star that's really hard
311
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:21,800
to get to slash you're actually never going to get there. It's about having a direction and then
312
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:28,200
this more iterative process of redefining your strategy constantly. So seeing what's actually
313
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:34,120
going on and being in the moment and making kind of a decisions. And it makes me think,
314
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:38,280
what's the role of the strategist then? Now, well, we'll come on, maybe come on,
315
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,720
talk in a minute. But I think those two things you talked about are still important. I think you need
316
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:48,120
you need that kind of end goal, flying in the ground, right? But for me, that is, that's where
317
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:52,920
brand that's been a brand place of all right. That's in terms of what this organization is about,
318
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:58,920
what we started for also purpose, achieve both with a brand and a business perspective as well.
319
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:04,360
The strategy or more likely strategies that we have are the things that we will
320
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,400
go after in order to get there. Right. So I think that's what all two things are connected,
321
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,000
but this could end to the same type of that. The big thing, the North Star, I mean, that's
322
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:18,680
what I'm getting, not like a quick coin phrase stays, particularly true, right? The strategy
323
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,640
is the bit that changes. I think so much about these are the, what's the role of the strategist?
324
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,800
You get a why don't we use that term to describe myself on the way to sort of use a way, fight
325
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:35,160
somewhere particularly, because I think a lot of strategy today is really about planning, right?
326
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,840
It's about the, it's the mapping of that for me to be, which is, you know,
327
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,920
but I think that's quite a simplistic view of how the wall actually is, which is about
328
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:51,480
constantly looking at where we're going, looking at the way which we get there across the whole
329
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:57,240
organization, not just, you know, to one length, but a bit more design and constantly adjusting
330
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,480
the organization, not just the strategy for how we get there. And I think that's why
331
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,920
I've always got to be weird or interesting, let's say, where strategy is a department that
332
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,480
sits off over here, rather than a still set, I think that we used to cut across.
333
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,680
Right, because we need, we need everybody aligned across that kind of common idea.
334
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,040
We need some people who are kind of looking across the business and across a kind of market base,
335
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,960
whatever it is, to constantly be checking back and forth as to whether the direction of this
336
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:30,280
organization is going is the right one relative to our objectives and competitors, and then adjusting
337
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,320
everything that that business is doing to get there. But that doesn't mean you need to put
338
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,480
a whole new strategic planning exercise for the exact team to kind of revalue everything.
339
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,960
You need to build those sort of strategic disciplines down into your organization as much as possible
340
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,200
as well, so that everybody is then starting to think, you know, has a clear view of who we're going,
341
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,440
understands their role and how they can achieve it, and is checking back and against that strategy,
342
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,360
the market, they're understanding they're part of the organization, how they change,
343
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:59,000
and how you need to adapt and evolve their execution of it. And that just like,
344
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,200
organization or strategy down in terms of business, I think it's important to say,
345
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,800
but as a general principle, like, the organization, kind of autonomy, I think,
346
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:11,160
but I can also write to think business is going to work in that, in that sort of way,
347
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:16,760
I think it becomes currently part of it. And I think a really exciting place to be for strategists
348
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:23,240
who are able to work in organizations like that, that enable them, because it's such a powerful role.
349
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,360
I look, yeah, I make a little bit, I mean, again, maybe this is maybe something that we might cut
350
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:32,680
out depending on how many people we affect. But like, I'm a good strategist, strategist,
351
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,360
a little bit like politicians, the career politicians, where if all you've ever done
352
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:40,200
has been a politician, right, it's kind of hard then to run the trains, wherever, right.
353
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,800
If you've driven the training for a while, you sort of understand how to run the network
354
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,280
of the routes potentially. So there's a similar analogy in terms of, I think so,
355
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,040
they can invest strategists, so people who've kind of been in that, I'm not, I'm not really
356
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,920
putting myself in any of this gap, right, but like, the people who could have understood
357
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,920
to do that, are the people who've kind of been in the different parts of the organization,
358
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:04,680
and understand how it works, because they need to cut across it in a way that is going to be
359
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,760
meaningful and more relevant to the teams and the people and the part of the business that you are
360
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:14,760
ultimately affecting. I think when strategy is stuck in a box, up here, off to the right-hand side,
361
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,080
I think that's when it, it, it, it, it starts to go wrong, because it's sort of,
362
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,640
it's done in an action and avoiding any, you know, in the same way that we build products,
363
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,400
we go customer, we've been customers and, and start the market, I think we're designing,
364
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:32,280
you know, past organizations and strategies, we need to build an insight that this is not
365
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:37,320
set for the problem. Okay, Robin, it's time for the quick fire round. We're going to switch things up.
366
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:44,040
If animals could talk, which species do you think would be the rudest?
367
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,840
The rudest animal, wombat. Yeah.
368
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,520
God, why did I find that so funny? And what makes someone a good traveling companion?
369
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,960
Snacks. In another life, what would your career be?
370
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:02,840
I would love to still be an artist, in a proper sense of the word.
371
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,880
What was the first work thing you were really proud of?
372
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,200
Depends upon, I mean, I did put together a pretty killer business case when I was about seven,
373
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:16,520
like, why we should build an artery in the back garden and I should therefore be allowed to keep
374
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:22,920
falcons as a pet. I was, I was, it was pretty detailed. I was quite impressed, I'm quite impressed with that.
375
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:29,640
In terms of proper work, I still go back, I still go back to the work we did, you know,
376
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:35,160
Clive Still Banking, Virgin Wany and the space that we built in Manchester, in terms of how you
377
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:40,920
could have revolutionized high street banking in the UK and kind of build a retail space that
378
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:46,520
sort of was up, sort of, you know, acting in the world, was a bank. I love that project for so
379
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,440
many different reasons, never mind the kind of people that we were working with for it on it.
380
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:56,440
And just seeing, it's something different about being able to walk down like a street and like,
381
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:01,240
never mind seeing a kind of doorboard with an add-on, seeing a physical three-story building
382
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,000
and then being able to kind of tie up, you know, with the original pencil sketches up on my wall,
383
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:10,200
which just off camera, I'll be able to kind of look at them and see a space and then see people
384
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:15,480
in that space kind of like living out the thing that was sort of conceptual space months, years ago,
385
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:21,080
in a little room in Nice. I think I'll always look back at that and just be quite happy. Amazing.
386
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,640
Could you please describe your taste in interior design? Nordic,
387
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:33,720
chaotic. In case you're into design, haphazard, probably, and I like Woodman Chic.
388
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:41,240
I've never had that phrase Woodman Chic, but I like it, I'm going to use it. Do you have a go-to
389
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,720
meal that you kind of are cooking the kitchen for the family or yourself or anyone?
390
00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:51,080
Everything pasta related. I love making pasta. Again, it's the old mechanical
391
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,880
handling of making pasta from scratch, right? It's quite a tactile experience. I love making pasta.
392
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,440
What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?
393
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:04,840
I think actually it's been a bit of advice that I heard three years ago. Before, after,
394
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,720
I was in a transition period to my last job in the store, and I was sort of going through a
395
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,800
not quite sure what it was I actually wanted to do, whether I was doing that.
396
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,920
It's an excellent question, but you can go, am I actually enjoying the thing that I'm doing?
397
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,520
I'm in the right place, right? Somebody said to me, ask yourself three questions.
398
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,240
Are you having fun? That's a great first question to ask yourself in any sort of job.
399
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,320
Are you enjoying your ex? You're really here for a short time. Are you enjoying the stuff
400
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,880
that we're doing that's sort of lost the point? Are you having fun?
401
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:37,400
Am I learning something new or interesting? It's a great reason for why we should be somewhere.
402
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,760
If we're not learning something, if we're not growing and developing, then
403
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,040
ask yourself a question. Or am I making things better? And I know every time I'll ask myself,
404
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,560
I'll always ask myself those three questions. The only thing I'm going to go do,
405
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,240
whether it's job or life to be fair, actually, and if I can answer yes,
406
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,440
the two of them that I think are resetting and reframing it, because clearly,
407
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,080
something's not right. So those three questions, I think are actually,
408
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:05,880
I helped me in a nice way at just evaluating whether the thing that I'm involved in is the right thing.
409
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:10,120
Last question that we need to ask everybody. On a scale of one to 10,
410
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:16,360
Robin Vedd, how weird are you? I mean, I think we're all weird. And I think weird is this
411
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,760
relative scale, right, in the sense of like, we're all weird to a video. And I think that's okay.
412
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,040
I think we should embrace our weirdness a little bit more, right?
413
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,840
At the point that the systems in the world are designed to make us less weird. And I think we
414
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:40,840
need to fight back. So that's a 10. Thank you, Robin Vedd. That was awesome. Thank you so much
415
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:46,840
for joining us today. As we close out another episode, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow
416
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:52,200
us on our social channels. Want to access label sessions for your brand? Whether you want to
417
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:57,800
build new products, access world-class mentors for your team, or reinvent the way you attract
418
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,600
talent into your business, visit label sessions to find out more.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:09,960
Hello and welcome to the Label Sessions Presents Podcast.
2
00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:14,280
Label Sessions is the world's leading innovation expert network.
3
00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,520
In this series you will meet some of the most interesting leaders anywhere, from across the
4
00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,920
world's business, design, tech, culture and sustainability.
5
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,200
All signed to the Label Sessions roster.
6
00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:30,240
To find out more about our work, helping brands and institutions around the world take on
7
00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:35,480
their big challenges for the future, head to LabelSessions.com to find out more.
8
00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:42,440
For now, enjoy the podcast.
9
00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:44,320
We are thrilled to have you join us Robin.
10
00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,920
Thank you so much for joining the Label Sessions Presents Podcast.
11
00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,960
So, could you introduce yourself to our audience and maybe kind of a share what you're named
12
00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:51,960
for?
13
00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:56,480
I'm a strategist and I'm going to use that word with this like pause because we like
14
00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:00,400
it in the sense that like it's part of a matter.
15
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,160
Could you end up in this debate between strategy and creativity?
16
00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:09,880
And there's like almost these are two different things but in reality I kind of think strategy
17
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:10,880
is a creative discipline.
18
00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:15,280
I kind of have always been somebody who's going to put those two things together.
19
00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,320
But I think there's certain people like to kind of create those caps.
20
00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:23,080
So for me the simplest way to describe it sometimes is strategy.
21
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:28,560
But in truth, like where I sort of articulate is like I'm a curious person who sort of
22
00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:34,720
tried to build a career helping businesses or business leaders to kind of take on some
23
00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:39,000
of the kind of biggest challenges that they've got today and really sort of find new growth
24
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:40,840
and new opportunities for growth.
25
00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,280
You know, brackets make more money, I suppose would be another half of the kind of sentence
26
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:50,560
through that kind of brand strategy, marketing activities and kind of bringing together those
27
00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:56,080
two worlds of strategy and creativity to kind of find the thing that I find to do the most
28
00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:00,160
of is bring those two bits together to connect business ideas and customers to something
29
00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:05,800
I guess about being true with what I've been in the kind of tech space, in the kind of
30
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,720
marketing space or in the kind of leadership space as well.
31
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,600
I think the one thread that I've probably got to in the recent years of this sort of
32
00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,640
new client I guess, is all the things I've been to do.
33
00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:20,880
I think that's a really interesting way of looking at things with strategy and creativity.
34
00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,600
I'm curious about your perspective with your kind of experience with kind of innovation
35
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,960
and growth with companies.
36
00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:33,320
Product can often sit with like a tech team and brand strategy can sit with say like a
37
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:34,320
marketing team.
38
00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,280
It's not always that way, but it often is.
39
00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:44,280
Can you maybe kind of just talk to us a bit around these worlds of product and brand strategy?
40
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,440
What it means for you being at that kind of intersection?
41
00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:53,120
I'm going to force myself to be at that intersection because you're right, most organisations are
42
00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,680
structured in different ways, but they do tend to have those two things separate and
43
00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,560
there's always reasons for it, right?
44
00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,480
Because to your point, the product, the thing that you're building on often is, you know,
45
00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:08,000
the sort of a line that's kind of tech and operation part of this is brand in that sense.
46
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,040
It depends on the organisation's thinking about brand versus brand and marketing since
47
00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:13,520
within the marketing function.
48
00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,640
And like most organisations just aren't very good at kind of joining, never mind these
49
00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:19,320
two things are the rest of the stuff.
50
00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,200
So you do end up in this place where these two things are separate.
51
00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:28,720
And I think the reason why I find that, and I'm really finding an example of where it's
52
00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:30,920
working well, I should have brought some extra trash.
53
00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:35,920
Some of the examples, I think back to something where we did, we're fortune money actually,
54
00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:40,120
the way we thought about brand and product and actually having those two things quite
55
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:45,960
closely aligned, I think, whether it's incredibly successful, they did over the last five, six,
56
00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:46,960
seven years.
57
00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,080
But the issue sometimes for these two separate worlds is like, you know, brand is very, very
58
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:58,360
good understanding of what an organisation is, why it exists, what its purpose is.
59
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,320
But that doesn't always then translate into the things that that business data goes and
60
00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:03,320
does, right?
61
00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,640
Might be how it talks about itself, how it communicates, how it markets, and yes, what
62
00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,520
it values, you know, like, but that doesn't necessarily always translate directly into
63
00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,520
the product and the experience that it delivers.
64
00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,600
I think the value that you get is when you manage to join these two things up and you've
65
00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:20,160
got a product team that often understands the customer that it's trying to create, or
66
00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,440
they're increasing with the floor, and the business in which it's in, why that business
67
00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:28,320
exists, and you can build products that genuinely deliver most of the business and the customer.
68
00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:33,520
And you find that actually, by having a deeper understanding of the brand and what an organisation
69
00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:38,160
you create deeper ideas and better ideas and things that people then take to market.
70
00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:42,280
But those two worlds don't tend to be in sync very often.
71
00:04:42,280 --> 00:04:46,960
I think quite often it's just okay making opportunity for them actually to kind of come
72
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:47,960
together, right?
73
00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:52,960
Bringing brand teams involved into your product design and having a product teams, adding
74
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,440
a deeper understanding on the business stand for us about why it exists.
75
00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,640
And that's also kind of brand and the business strategy side of it.
76
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:05,120
You mentioned like Virgin Money, who you think has done, brought in kind of a brand and product
77
00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:10,680
really well together because the brand really feels like this skeleton that holds a lot
78
00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,560
of things together and kind of drives the organisation.
79
00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:20,920
It was really hard for people to, if they think about brand, excuse me, in like a non-traditional
80
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,760
way, to hire for that.
81
00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:28,560
Because when people think about like brand managers and brand leaders, it must be really
82
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:34,160
hard to like hire for, I guess, you know, a new way of doing brand, a new way of approaching
83
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:35,160
it.
84
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,720
Yeah, and I don't know whether I'm sort of projecting and just trying to create this
85
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,880
new world that I think is actually quite interesting, right?
86
00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,280
Because you're right, most people like in a brand space will come for a communication,
87
00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:49,960
sort of a pure brand, not necessary to making a product design for an innovation, a customer
88
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:50,960
bit.
89
00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,120
But I think that's, I don't know, I don't think, I generally think that's where there's
90
00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:55,120
value, right?
91
00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,440
And I think a lot of the, because we will find there's a lot of, you know, brand strategies
92
00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:02,440
that are a bit of a brand, you can see, what they're very, very good at is uncovering a
93
00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:07,640
really interesting thing, whether that's an insight or a truth about a market or a customer
94
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:08,640
base or a product, whatever it is, right?
95
00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,200
They're very good at finding that and it creatively creates something more often than
96
00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,200
communicate, right?
97
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,280
Well, they're not very good at this, they're turning that into something really like a
98
00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:18,280
product to an experience.
99
00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:22,280
What product teams are very, very good at is taking your customer need and turning that
100
00:06:22,280 --> 00:06:27,200
into a functional thing that, you know, a customer may or may not want, but what they're not
101
00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,920
necessarily very good at or very well tuned into is connecting that product back into
102
00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:31,920
something bigger, right?
103
00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,840
Whether that's something bigger is the organization, in a kind of non-commercial sense, or into
104
00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:41,880
something bigger, a culture and society that gives it bigger meaning around the brand.
105
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,480
And they find somebody or teams like any of you who can cut across those bits and kind
106
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,720
of bring something like a brand thinking into product design, and like a product design
107
00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:50,720
thinking to get a brand.
108
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,360
And I think, yeah, they're pretty products that sort of both land in market very effectively,
109
00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,200
but to the last as well, actually could be steep.
110
00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,720
What I hear and what I take from that is really this about kind of a transcending like conventional
111
00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:04,720
boundaries.
112
00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,760
And I think your focus and interest is kind of a connecting kind of ideas, culture and
113
00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:15,720
people in this kind of a, what is actually a really probably a dynamic working existence
114
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:16,720
for people in big brands?
115
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,960
I had this idea, sort of the analogy of like sometimes you're treated like chapters in
116
00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:21,960
a book, right?
117
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,960
Like there's a star in the middle of the day, you do the kind of brand bit, the strategy
118
00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,440
bit, product bit, experience bit, no acting bit, right?
119
00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,400
But in reality, they're all just characters in the same story.
120
00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,520
And actually they all kind of need to connect together and weave together.
121
00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,240
And the interesting stuff happens at the intersect, I think, of all of these things, right?
122
00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,840
And product design, product and design brand.
123
00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:45,680
So I think if you can find the space between, that's what I think interesting stuff takes
124
00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:46,680
to happen.
125
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,680
But more, yeah, it does take both cultural shifts, right?
126
00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,680
In terms of how an organization thinks about itself.
127
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,320
There's a practical function of things in terms of how an organization structures itself
128
00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:58,680
to allow that things to happen.
129
00:07:58,680 --> 00:07:59,680
Right?
130
00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,560
We need to like, ownership and C-suite, then to have teams of structure and the ways in
131
00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,160
which an organization lacks itself, kind of like, yeah, live in that kind of slight
132
00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,680
chaotic dynamic space, allow these teams of people to interact more readily.
133
00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:18,320
And it does currently, most businesses, for good reasons, have structure and that structure
134
00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:19,320
is valuable.
135
00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,160
But I think sometimes we can give it a little structure a little bit.
136
00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:27,720
I wanted to ask you if there were industry practices you saw that like, needed to change?
137
00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,120
I don't know the specific practices, like, well, I do that.
138
00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,520
I think it's a general principle, like embracing a bit more chaos, I think, because you've lost
139
00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:36,520
that belief in.
140
00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,520
And there's a new answer around size of scale and the bigger you get, the slight, you do
141
00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,920
need to have some sense of structure to launch for the thing to keep moving forward.
142
00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:44,920
Right?
143
00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:49,320
And I mean, the simplest thing it comes down to is like, it's an old Barack Obama quote,
144
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,960
I think, which was kind of like, yeah, we're still done when we start caring against the
145
00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:52,960
credit.
146
00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,080
And I think there's a little bit in that, right?
147
00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:00,520
Whether your organization or agency working with a client or whatever, if we can just
148
00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:05,520
worry a bit more about what it is we're trying to do and a little bit like, who's doing it?
149
00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:06,520
Right?
150
00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,120
And like, you know, then I think we actually, we do get more stuff done.
151
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,120
Right?
152
00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,600
And so, we might be a philosophical cultural change that we need to kind of make some of
153
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,920
that might just be then down to being a little bit, a little bit less restrictive on the
154
00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:22,960
command roles, responsibilities of people's and teams and kind of playing to can skills
155
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,840
and experience and kind of combined skills and experience, such like how we, how we great
156
00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,320
team, let me, at a base level, like cross functional team, we told them a long time,
157
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:31,320
those are great.
158
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,560
Those are really good ways to, but quite often you find they're very orchestrated and somebody
159
00:09:35,560 --> 00:09:37,320
still needs to be sat at the top of the pyramid.
160
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,320
And like then, you were sat at the top of the pyramid, tensed to have some set of an
161
00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:45,320
agency in life, it's one part of the organization, you sort of lose, you lose so the value of
162
00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:46,320
that chaos.
163
00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:53,200
And I think it comes out to trust and culture at its base level, so tools and then, yeah,
164
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:57,440
just thinking more about what is it we're trying to collectively do, the job title
165
00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:01,680
that I've currently got on or the part of the organization that I sit in.
166
00:10:01,680 --> 00:10:04,800
And that does get harder, the harder you get up because, you know, at some point there's
167
00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,760
a performance metric, so as a symmetric criteria, somebody's going to be evaluated on.
168
00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,280
And I think changing some of that might actually be quite helpful, like being able to free
169
00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,440
your instance of how we evaluate success, particularly senior levels, might allow things
170
00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:21,480
to kind of cascade down and give teams and into a just more autonomy and freedom, to
171
00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,440
kind of step aside the box, right, and step across and look across the organization and
172
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,040
go make friends with the person that designed team, if you're, you know, even think that
173
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,960
product design team sometimes sit incredibly separate from each other, they're fundamentally
174
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:39,040
part, they're same part of the business, looking at same as a marketing set and probably all
175
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,600
of these things just need to be better and more comfortable sitting together and more
176
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:49,600
biased and move whether that's through structure, process, performance metrics, better in my
177
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,720
mind, if you've got a common, you know, the thing you do need to do is a common framework,
178
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,680
right, and by that I sort of mean broad strategy, brand, I think there's been actually the
179
00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:02,240
kind of guardrails, it means we're all heading, you know, the bump, the bump, the analogy
180
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,320
of the ball, we're all heading in the right direction, we can bounce off it, you know,
181
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,200
we're all going to be completely heading off in different directions. We have that, kind
182
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,080
of what happens in the middle, I think we can leave to a little bit of luck and certain
183
00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:14,080
liberties sometimes.
184
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,400
Let me ask you this, you're someone that's navigated a lot of corporate environments
185
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:23,760
and the corporate landscape you've worked within that, but also you've kind of stayed
186
00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:30,760
rooted in creativity in different ways, both in your working life, but also I know you're
187
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:35,160
an incredible photographer and you're really passionate about photography and making and
188
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,760
the craft of photography and I guess the craft of creativity in a way. And I think some,
189
00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:46,000
and I think I just want to like take a minute and talk about those two worlds because then
190
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,000
I think you very comfortably inhabit both of them.
191
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:56,040
Yeah, I mean, it's been, I mean, a late, late realization, but for the first year, I think
192
00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,840
it was the first part of my career, I probably was very corporate, I sort of lived on that,
193
00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,720
I sort of grew up, grew up in the kind of big consultancy, right, I had a sense here
194
00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:10,720
and started spending a big chunk of time there and was on that corporate career ladder. And
195
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:15,440
it's probably recently, I mean, we moved to a small agency, I got back in big consultancy
196
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:21,960
through acquisition and then kind of working to work at a tech, scalar agency place again.
197
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:27,880
And I probably even have a back of that, that I kind of look at the common thread that has
198
00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,880
always been back in it, I'm creative in what I, in what I'm doing is a deep tech strategy,
199
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,760
right? I'm not a tech person at all. Like, weirdly, the idea of this today, why is all
200
00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,960
mechanical so get right because I kind of like all the fancy new stuff scares me, right?
201
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,360
So give me something I can why, right? I like or why, right? Well, why it was also to, so
202
00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,960
let me do the synthesis of technology. And the thing that's been true through all of that
203
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,480
is like the thing that I can held on to is like, like, creative new ideas, right? So you can do
204
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,160
like, you know, deep tech, the thing I was trying to find was like, what's the most interesting
205
00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:04,240
idea that's going to make this new platform relevant to somebody. But it's only, whether it's
206
00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,880
only ever been the fortune of old age, right? I'm going to kind of look back and kind of
207
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,920
see that that's the thing that I've inadvertently held on to is the bit that I can, I'm like,
208
00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,960
well, actually, that's the bit that I can't, I'm really interested in how do you bring, you know,
209
00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,960
creativity as a kind of, as a way to transform large corporate organizations, I think there's
210
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,680
like, is so much of that already in place within these places, I guess, just how do you put it
211
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:32,840
on the market and find it, I guess, right? So the bit of like self learning in that in the sense
212
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:37,720
that I've kind of figured out the bit that I care most about. And like, I've been sort of
213
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:42,160
lucky in a lot of ways, I've been afforded the opportunity to kind of be that person, I suppose,
214
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:47,000
in the projects and the organizations that I've been in, you get inside, you know, big consultancy,
215
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:52,000
and small agency. So I don't know, I think it's just, you know, there's a little bit of self
216
00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,720
reflection at the class, but while that, you know, I've become really happy, right, it comes to
217
00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:02,800
the point, the sort of thing that I can bring and for the past, those, the, the, the, the, the,
218
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,600
yeah, and they've afforded me that opportunity to, to play that role as a coach, right?
219
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:13,120
And, you know, and it's only adding back to some of the projects that we've been involved in. One
220
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:18,400
of the things I can get most joy at, it's when you find those, because I think there's a general
221
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,440
idea about creativity, right? Or creative, I want a lot of creative, right? I mean, I, like, all
222
00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,480
right, I think everybody's creative. I think that's the general starting point. I think some
223
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,400
people just learn to hold on to it for longer, right? The systems and the environments that
224
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,240
were in almost designed to be creativity. I've said a lot of things, right? Whereas like,
225
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,240
some of us either just learn to kind of hold on to it all over, or a little bit more belligerent,
226
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:42,880
so let them let it go. I don't know which one it is, right? Like, I can't sing, I can't play any
227
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,440
musical instruments, I can't draw. So it might form a creativity that works in a long way, right?
228
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:52,240
Our vision through photography, you know, in the truest sense, like, I'm not a creative person,
229
00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:56,280
but I think, you know, the act of having ideas is creative, and I think the strategies that show
230
00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:00,320
having ideas that, you know, win. So that's, that's, you know, why I can blend those two worlds
231
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:00,840
together, right?
232
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:06,240
You said something really interesting to me around the, the, I guess your practice. So you like
233
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:13,680
final and, I guess, analog cameras, their antithesis of, of, you know, new tech, you know,
234
00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:19,360
but I guess photography development. What do you, what do you do to photography? What do you
235
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:20,280
like about photography?
236
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:27,120
I mean, the classic and other thing is that it is my way of exploring, exploring my curious,
237
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:32,040
like making sense of stuff, right? Because it forces you, or forces me to get out,
238
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:37,760
out, out from behind this little desk and wander outside and go, right? And I think
239
00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,600
photography is about finding stuff, right? That might be beautiful landscape. I started off
240
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,080
in landscape, but I actually did much more, kind of like street or good documentary type
241
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,280
stuff, like capturing life, I think, even just around the house, like taking pictures of the
242
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:55,000
boys and stuff, and I kind of just like capturing moments, I think, right? So it forces you to
243
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,400
go out and look, that's the first thing. And like, I enjoy that because it's like, I'm not
244
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:05,400
somebody who really sits, read lots of books, right? And like, if I would go into the world,
245
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,720
I'm just called wander, and I'll take pictures of something. And like, it's not really the act
246
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,960
of taking pictures that I enjoy as much, though, and that's a massive, it's a massive part of it,
247
00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:19,800
but it's about just getting out there and see it and finding it looking. And it makes you look
248
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,480
closer at stuff. So you start to look at things, you're taking pictures of a building, look at
249
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,120
how that building's constructed, how the window frames are made, like tiny little bits of detail
250
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,200
that you would, like some might be an interesting picture, but that you'd never see if you didn't
251
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,800
do that, right? You just be wandering. And I just think there's an element of that that I just,
252
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:42,520
like I kind of need in my life, I need to kind of escape from screen and just get out into the
253
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:47,960
world a little bit, and just look at stuff. When you look at stuff, you see things you
254
00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:53,480
don't necessarily see. And that's where you can let, you make good work in that, I think,
255
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,400
when you sort of train yourself to look at things in a different way. And I think we can apply that
256
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:03,800
by stretching creativity as well. Like, yeah, for those reasons, I'm getting out, seeing the world,
257
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,760
maybe coming back to something that might look good in the wall eventually.
258
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:12,840
Thinking about like strategy for a bit. So you've talked about what strategy means to you being,
259
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,480
like it's about the business of ideas. It's about what's next. It's about kind of connecting the
260
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,880
dots. What's the impact you've seen when a business doesn't have a clear strategy?
261
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,480
So it's so much time and strategy. We've so much time and money on it. But really, it can be one of
262
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:30,520
the most simplest things. It's like, we over complicated, I think, in a lot of ways. But you
263
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,800
do need something. You need some sort of framework. You can decide how lucrative you want that to be.
264
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:40,600
And I think that you're allowed to be the clear of the idea. It needs to be in itself,
265
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,120
right? So you need some sort of core through which you're looking at everything. And then,
266
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:49,320
yeah, it's not to happen in the middle of that. And so we continue. You can let happen. And I think
267
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:56,680
that that's the chaos, right? When you haven't got some sense of direction or framework or purpose
268
00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:01,480
or reason and intensity for what you're trying to do, that's the thing that go chaotically.
269
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,720
They're all there. Because there's no sense of community. There's no thread. Like, you think
270
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,800
about that. I don't remind, you know, you could have a strategy that thread runs through everything.
271
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,800
And things could be flailing off for any of the sides. But we haven't got that thread that pulls
272
00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,840
everything together, which is something you just pull the string and everything times up.
273
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,960
You haven't got that. Everything goes everywhere. And that's when, you know,
274
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,560
that's when the lack of strategy is obvious, right? So just leaning onto that for a minute,
275
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:28,600
like, I'm just quite interested in this kind of a bridging the gap from strategy, from thinking
276
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:34,600
to doing, and that kind of a seesaw, the back and forth as you kind of progress a concept from
277
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:39,560
strategy into like realizing its ambition and the chaos that goes along with it.
278
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,080
You can just that language of like, because I think there's a slight fallacy that something
279
00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,560
will fall into, which is like, there's a period of thinking, and then there's a period of doing,
280
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:54,040
right? You don't necessarily think that's true. I think. But one of the big things people want
281
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:59,160
this idea of what we have the strategy, or whatever vision strategy plan, right, these
282
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,840
different words, that's it. Let's go. We must be right. I think the truth is the first thing
283
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:07,480
advice like, well, never advice have a piece, right? That's the other thing I'll say. It's not
284
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:12,520
necessarily a piece of advice. The strategy won't be wrong. Right. And that's okay. But I think too
285
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:17,480
often people think about the right strategy can be one. What you need to do is like have a way in
286
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:23,640
which you start to execute on the belief for the bet, the idea that you have, and then being able to
287
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:28,760
change it, iterate on it, explore different avenues, be consciously in tune with what's
288
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:33,160
happening in the business of the market that allows you to adapt to us too often. Like,
289
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,160
is this sort of another terrible analogy of like a survey yacht race where all the yachts
290
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,680
select swimming around at the beginning and somebody goes, whistle and it goes, right?
291
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,520
The reality like that's the strategic fate of chaos and thinking and all of a sudden we're
292
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,280
off and running in the programs and play and everything's going to be fine now. But in reality,
293
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:54,440
that's just not how the world works. You look at the chaos that's going on in the world, like,
294
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:58,840
you know, we can't, we can't define a plan for the next six months, the next four years,
295
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:04,360
it's going to be action. But we have to find a way to play some bets, right? And those bets are
296
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:08,280
sort of an informed opinions or ideas about how we're going to win, right? And what our market
297
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:12,040
or industry rivers are trying to do. And they need a way of being able to click constantly,
298
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,600
to check back on whether those things, those things that we're doing are working or not,
299
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:21,000
and then adjust, right? And then the look, the old saying says, the vision stays the same,
300
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,520
strategy changes, particularly, right, which I think is still true. Like, the core belief that
301
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:29,720
thread is more like a brand, well, that's being a core purpose. That's where we're going. That's
302
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,440
that's what we're trying to be. That's who we aspire to be, we aspire to achieve. How we get there,
303
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,880
the strategy, the plan, the tactics change. And I think that we can iterate back on that and
304
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:44,760
redirect and pivot to you so that we're well-coined for issues is the important. And that's why the
305
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:51,000
sector is a brand important to so important because we can define this vision, this future,
306
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,560
send, you know, product design teams off for three years to go and create it and realize it by the
307
00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:00,360
time we build to the world shifted six months after. Right. And I think that that in things to
308
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:05,480
world that cycle is a brand important. Hearing what you've just said, it sounds like that idea of,
309
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:10,040
like, I guess, being in the moment and seeing things. What I'm hearing when you're talking
310
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:16,040
about strategies is actually it's not about this big overarching goal North Star that's really hard
311
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:21,800
to get to slash you're actually never going to get there. It's about having a direction and then
312
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:28,200
this more iterative process of redefining your strategy constantly. So seeing what's actually
313
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:34,120
going on and being in the moment and making kind of a decisions. And it makes me think,
314
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:38,280
what's the role of the strategist then? Now, well, we'll come on, maybe come on,
315
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,720
talk in a minute. But I think those two things you talked about are still important. I think you need
316
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:48,120
you need that kind of end goal, flying in the ground, right? But for me, that is, that's where
317
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:52,920
brand that's been a brand place of all right. That's in terms of what this organization is about,
318
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:58,920
what we started for also purpose, achieve both with a brand and a business perspective as well.
319
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:04,360
The strategy or more likely strategies that we have are the things that we will
320
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,400
go after in order to get there. Right. So I think that's what all two things are connected,
321
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,000
but this could end to the same type of that. The big thing, the North Star, I mean, that's
322
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:18,680
what I'm getting, not like a quick coin phrase stays, particularly true, right? The strategy
323
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,640
is the bit that changes. I think so much about these are the, what's the role of the strategist?
324
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,800
You get a why don't we use that term to describe myself on the way to sort of use a way, fight
325
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:35,160
somewhere particularly, because I think a lot of strategy today is really about planning, right?
326
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,840
It's about the, it's the mapping of that for me to be, which is, you know,
327
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:44,920
but I think that's quite a simplistic view of how the wall actually is, which is about
328
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:51,480
constantly looking at where we're going, looking at the way which we get there across the whole
329
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:57,240
organization, not just, you know, to one length, but a bit more design and constantly adjusting
330
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,480
the organization, not just the strategy for how we get there. And I think that's why
331
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,920
I've always got to be weird or interesting, let's say, where strategy is a department that
332
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,480
sits off over here, rather than a still set, I think that we used to cut across.
333
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,680
Right, because we need, we need everybody aligned across that kind of common idea.
334
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,040
We need some people who are kind of looking across the business and across a kind of market base,
335
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,960
whatever it is, to constantly be checking back and forth as to whether the direction of this
336
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:30,280
organization is going is the right one relative to our objectives and competitors, and then adjusting
337
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,320
everything that that business is doing to get there. But that doesn't mean you need to put
338
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,480
a whole new strategic planning exercise for the exact team to kind of revalue everything.
339
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,960
You need to build those sort of strategic disciplines down into your organization as much as possible
340
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,200
as well, so that everybody is then starting to think, you know, has a clear view of who we're going,
341
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,440
understands their role and how they can achieve it, and is checking back and against that strategy,
342
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,360
the market, they're understanding they're part of the organization, how they change,
343
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:59,000
and how you need to adapt and evolve their execution of it. And that just like,
344
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,200
organization or strategy down in terms of business, I think it's important to say,
345
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,800
but as a general principle, like, the organization, kind of autonomy, I think,
346
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:11,160
but I can also write to think business is going to work in that, in that sort of way,
347
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:16,760
I think it becomes currently part of it. And I think a really exciting place to be for strategists
348
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:23,240
who are able to work in organizations like that, that enable them, because it's such a powerful role.
349
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,360
I look, yeah, I make a little bit, I mean, again, maybe this is maybe something that we might cut
350
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:32,680
out depending on how many people we affect. But like, I'm a good strategist, strategist,
351
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,360
a little bit like politicians, the career politicians, where if all you've ever done
352
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:40,200
has been a politician, right, it's kind of hard then to run the trains, wherever, right.
353
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,800
If you've driven the training for a while, you sort of understand how to run the network
354
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,280
of the routes potentially. So there's a similar analogy in terms of, I think so,
355
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,040
they can invest strategists, so people who've kind of been in that, I'm not, I'm not really
356
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,920
putting myself in any of this gap, right, but like, the people who could have understood
357
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,920
to do that, are the people who've kind of been in the different parts of the organization,
358
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:04,680
and understand how it works, because they need to cut across it in a way that is going to be
359
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:08,760
meaningful and more relevant to the teams and the people and the part of the business that you are
360
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:14,760
ultimately affecting. I think when strategy is stuck in a box, up here, off to the right-hand side,
361
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,080
I think that's when it, it, it, it, it starts to go wrong, because it's sort of,
362
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,640
it's done in an action and avoiding any, you know, in the same way that we build products,
363
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,400
we go customer, we've been customers and, and start the market, I think we're designing,
364
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:32,280
you know, past organizations and strategies, we need to build an insight that this is not
365
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:37,320
set for the problem. Okay, Robin, it's time for the quick fire round. We're going to switch things up.
366
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:44,040
If animals could talk, which species do you think would be the rudest?
367
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,840
The rudest animal, wombat. Yeah.
368
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,520
God, why did I find that so funny? And what makes someone a good traveling companion?
369
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,960
Snacks. In another life, what would your career be?
370
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:02,840
I would love to still be an artist, in a proper sense of the word.
371
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,880
What was the first work thing you were really proud of?
372
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,200
Depends upon, I mean, I did put together a pretty killer business case when I was about seven,
373
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:16,520
like, why we should build an artery in the back garden and I should therefore be allowed to keep
374
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:22,920
falcons as a pet. I was, I was, it was pretty detailed. I was quite impressed, I'm quite impressed with that.
375
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:29,640
In terms of proper work, I still go back, I still go back to the work we did, you know,
376
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:35,160
Clive Still Banking, Virgin Wany and the space that we built in Manchester, in terms of how you
377
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:40,920
could have revolutionized high street banking in the UK and kind of build a retail space that
378
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:46,520
sort of was up, sort of, you know, acting in the world, was a bank. I love that project for so
379
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,440
many different reasons, never mind the kind of people that we were working with for it on it.
380
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:56,440
And just seeing, it's something different about being able to walk down like a street and like,
381
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:01,240
never mind seeing a kind of doorboard with an add-on, seeing a physical three-story building
382
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,000
and then being able to kind of tie up, you know, with the original pencil sketches up on my wall,
383
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:10,200
which just off camera, I'll be able to kind of look at them and see a space and then see people
384
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:15,480
in that space kind of like living out the thing that was sort of conceptual space months, years ago,
385
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:21,080
in a little room in Nice. I think I'll always look back at that and just be quite happy. Amazing.
386
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:25,640
Could you please describe your taste in interior design? Nordic,
387
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:33,720
chaotic. In case you're into design, haphazard, probably, and I like Woodman Chic.
388
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:41,240
I've never had that phrase Woodman Chic, but I like it, I'm going to use it. Do you have a go-to
389
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,720
meal that you kind of are cooking the kitchen for the family or yourself or anyone?
390
00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:51,080
Everything pasta related. I love making pasta. Again, it's the old mechanical
391
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,880
handling of making pasta from scratch, right? It's quite a tactile experience. I love making pasta.
392
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,440
What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?
393
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:04,840
I think actually it's been a bit of advice that I heard three years ago. Before, after,
394
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,720
I was in a transition period to my last job in the store, and I was sort of going through a
395
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,800
not quite sure what it was I actually wanted to do, whether I was doing that.
396
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,920
It's an excellent question, but you can go, am I actually enjoying the thing that I'm doing?
397
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,520
I'm in the right place, right? Somebody said to me, ask yourself three questions.
398
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,240
Are you having fun? That's a great first question to ask yourself in any sort of job.
399
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,320
Are you enjoying your ex? You're really here for a short time. Are you enjoying the stuff
400
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,880
that we're doing that's sort of lost the point? Are you having fun?
401
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:37,400
Am I learning something new or interesting? It's a great reason for why we should be somewhere.
402
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,760
If we're not learning something, if we're not growing and developing, then
403
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,040
ask yourself a question. Or am I making things better? And I know every time I'll ask myself,
404
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,560
I'll always ask myself those three questions. The only thing I'm going to go do,
405
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,240
whether it's job or life to be fair, actually, and if I can answer yes,
406
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,440
the two of them that I think are resetting and reframing it, because clearly,
407
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,080
something's not right. So those three questions, I think are actually,
408
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:05,880
I helped me in a nice way at just evaluating whether the thing that I'm involved in is the right thing.
409
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:10,120
Last question that we need to ask everybody. On a scale of one to 10,
410
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:16,360
Robin Vedd, how weird are you? I mean, I think we're all weird. And I think weird is this
411
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,760
relative scale, right, in the sense of like, we're all weird to a video. And I think that's okay.
412
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,040
I think we should embrace our weirdness a little bit more, right?
413
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,840
At the point that the systems in the world are designed to make us less weird. And I think we
414
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:40,840
need to fight back. So that's a 10. Thank you, Robin Vedd. That was awesome. Thank you so much
415
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:46,840
for joining us today. As we close out another episode, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow
416
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:52,200
us on our social channels. Want to access label sessions for your brand? Whether you want to
417
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:57,800
build new products, access world-class mentors for your team, or reinvent the way you attract
418
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:02,600
talent into your business, visit label sessions to find out more.
