Devils

WEBVTT
00:04.081 --> 00:06.586
[SPEAKER_03]: My name is Aron, and my pronouns are he-hem.
00:06.606 --> 00:09.591
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm a podcast producer for Toggerfer and Editor.
00:09.611 --> 00:13.698
[SPEAKER_03]: My name's Dylan, my pronouns are he-hem, and I'm a physicist from Canada.
00:13.979 --> 00:18.006
[SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to Kill and Remonstern.
00:26.761 --> 00:33.211
[SPEAKER_03]: This week on Kill Every Monster, we are featuring Devils.
00:33.792 --> 00:41.924
[SPEAKER_02]: The Monster Manual describes Devils as personifications of tyranny with a totalitarian society dedicated to the domination of mortal life.
00:42.305 --> 00:45.850
[SPEAKER_02]: They live to conquer, enslave, and oppress.
00:50.268 --> 00:51.732
[SPEAKER_03]: That is a good opening line.
00:52.314 --> 00:56.224
[SPEAKER_03]: Most of the monsters don't have a good opening line, but that one solid.
00:56.505 --> 01:06.572
[SPEAKER_02]: I did have to like steal like two separate paragraph things because it immediately gets into hell's ecology right off the bat, but like, yeah, it.
01:06.552 --> 01:07.013
[SPEAKER_03]: it lands.
01:07.613 --> 01:09.475
[SPEAKER_03]: We are joined by Ham the Shahid.
01:10.176 --> 01:19.266
[SPEAKER_03]: Hamna, whose pronouns are any all, it's an award-winning TTRPG performer, producer, and writer from a queer, age-gender, Pakistani perspective.
01:19.787 --> 01:22.710
[SPEAKER_03]: They specialize in high emotion, character-driven narratives.
01:23.411 --> 01:35.344
[SPEAKER_03]: He strives to make experimental, emotionally driven art that not only encourages us to question what we think is possible in TTRPGs, but also uplift marginalized voices seeking to tell their own stories.
01:36.185 --> 01:39.893
[SPEAKER_07]: Welcome to the show, I'm the Hi, I'm so happy to be here.
01:40.795 --> 01:46.267
[SPEAKER_03]: We are thrilled to have you, especially for a monster that Dylan's been wanting to talk about for a long time.
01:46.768 --> 01:47.750
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm not going to lie.
01:47.871 --> 01:50.857
[SPEAKER_08]: I was surprised that you haven't already talked about it.
01:51.258 --> 01:53.603
[SPEAKER_03]: We have on several other monsters.
01:54.950 --> 01:57.797
[SPEAKER_03]: but not on its own as it's own monster.
01:57.817 --> 02:10.207
[SPEAKER_02]: It's come up several times mostly through the lens of talking about a different monster and going like, hey, isn't it fucking weird that this is a better devil than all the devils in the monster menu?
02:10.228 --> 02:12.874
[SPEAKER_02]: So Honda, what are devils to you?
02:13.073 --> 02:16.960
[SPEAKER_08]: So, I mean, devils are really, really interesting.
02:17.141 --> 02:29.524
[SPEAKER_08]: And I want to preface with the fact that I'm going to be talking about devils and the devil, like TM, capital T, capital D, from a Muslim perspective.
02:29.544 --> 02:34.373
[SPEAKER_08]: So, from like an Islamic kind of mythology and folk or perspective, because that's
02:34.353 --> 02:40.519
[SPEAKER_08]: how I've kind of been like imbued in the mythology of what a devil and devils are.
02:40.559 --> 02:53.772
[SPEAKER_08]: And also caveat to that is that there's so many like cultural and even just like individual differences in terms of how families will talk about devils even within like Muslim culture and like Muslim families.
02:53.852 --> 02:59.077
[SPEAKER_08]: So just to out to any listeners out there if I say something and you're like, that's not what I was taught.
02:59.658 --> 03:00.258
[SPEAKER_08]: That's okay.
03:00.278 --> 03:02.200
[SPEAKER_08]: I think we were just taught different things.
03:02.180 --> 03:10.095
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're out there and you're gonna say a goddamn word, my question was what is a devil to Hamna and you can shut up.
03:10.155 --> 03:10.716
[SPEAKER_03]: That's right.
03:10.736 --> 03:12.840
[SPEAKER_03]: It wasn't what is a devil to you, listener.
03:13.521 --> 03:16.547
[SPEAKER_03]: You want to talk about it, come to our discord and yell at us.
03:16.567 --> 03:21.015
[SPEAKER_03]: You can tell me about it there, but don't fight with Hamna, fight with me.
03:21.097 --> 03:30.691
[SPEAKER_08]: But yeah, to me it's really interesting because I mean, I've always There is the concept of like devils plural within Islam, right?
03:30.751 --> 03:44.151
[SPEAKER_08]: There are they are these creatures these spirits that are evil and that tempt people into sin into doing things that God does not want you to do But interestingly enough when I was growing up
03:44.131 --> 03:51.579
[SPEAKER_08]: Devils is a concept like just as a as a type of being in the plurality, we're really anything that was brought up.
03:51.639 --> 04:02.750
[SPEAKER_08]: It was more so the devil that became kind of the focus of all of the like moral stories that I was told in the way that I was like raised to like view morality.
04:03.391 --> 04:13.581
[SPEAKER_08]: But as I got older and kind of started to look into even just like the
04:13.561 --> 04:16.745
[SPEAKER_02]: You immediately hit the paradise lost of it all.
04:17.446 --> 04:18.046
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, right?
04:18.066 --> 04:32.083
[SPEAKER_08]: Like, anybody who knows my workers familiar with it, I think can understand like I am fascinated by a moral complexity and by like the gray areas and like how we even conceptualize what evil and good are.
04:32.103 --> 04:36.328
[SPEAKER_08]: And like for a figure as
04:37.186 --> 04:38.529
[SPEAKER_08]: singular as the devil.
04:38.629 --> 04:40.072
[SPEAKER_08]: You would think it would be straightforward, right?
04:40.092 --> 04:48.090
[SPEAKER_08]: You would think it would be, while the devil is evil, did something wrong, makes everybody else do wrong saying that they're for bad, done, and of story, right?
04:48.611 --> 04:54.925
[SPEAKER_08]: But in Islamic folklore, the devil, as we know him, uh, his name is Iblis,
04:54.905 --> 05:05.277
[SPEAKER_08]: And he is often also referred to as shethan, which actually just means devils like shethan are like, is the term you would use to refer to devils broadly.
05:05.897 --> 05:10.022
[SPEAKER_08]: But oftentimes we say like shethan to mean the devil as well.
05:10.042 --> 05:14.928
[SPEAKER_08]: So it's kind of like this title almost that is given to him.
05:15.488 --> 05:21.435
[SPEAKER_08]: And interestingly enough, like his story is very similar to the Christian story.
05:21.415 --> 05:28.406
[SPEAKER_08]: God created Adam and then asked the angels to like bow before Adam, like his new creation and at least refused.
05:29.007 --> 05:35.678
[SPEAKER_08]: And that is defiance of God and so he was cast down for that arrogance for defying God.
05:36.279 --> 05:37.180
[SPEAKER_08]: And
05:37.160 --> 05:56.907
[SPEAKER_08]: I think it's really interesting because there is actually some literature and some like academic discourse within even like Muslims about that story about being well is that a defiance of God or is he is a police shithon actually like the one true
05:56.887 --> 06:01.576
[SPEAKER_08]: like, believe her in God because he refused to bow down to anyone other than God.
06:01.677 --> 06:04.743
[SPEAKER_08]: He refused to bow down before the feet of man.
06:04.763 --> 06:09.292
[SPEAKER_08]: And so is that actually upholding what God says you're supposed to do?
06:09.332 --> 06:13.039
[SPEAKER_02]: Don't worship idols even if those idols are Adam.
06:13.019 --> 06:14.100
[SPEAKER_08]: Exactly, right?
06:14.181 --> 06:17.285
[SPEAKER_08]: Like, that's the Islamic, like, tenet, right?
06:17.345 --> 06:19.247
[SPEAKER_08]: Is you're not supposed to worship false idols?
06:19.327 --> 06:20.929
[SPEAKER_08]: It's just the one God.
06:20.969 --> 06:28.019
[SPEAKER_08]: And so, it's kind of interesting in this way where there's this paradox that's presented where what do you do when God tells you to worship?
06:28.619 --> 06:30.362
[SPEAKER_08]: A false idol supposedly, right?
06:30.422 --> 06:34.087
[SPEAKER_08]: tells you to bow down before a man, and then you refuse.
06:34.607 --> 06:35.228
[SPEAKER_08]: Is that wrong?
06:35.428 --> 06:36.269
[SPEAKER_08]: Is that not wrong?
06:36.289 --> 06:38.993
[SPEAKER_08]: Like, it's kind of interesting to think about.
06:45.233 --> 06:57.244
[SPEAKER_08]: the way that I have always been sort of like immersed in stories about the devil is at the devil is almost almost not quite, but almost a god like figure himself, right, except for evil.
06:57.604 --> 06:59.726
[SPEAKER_08]: He can do all these things that God can do.
06:59.766 --> 07:04.671
[SPEAKER_08]: He can pretty much stand up to and fight God, but for evil.
07:04.831 --> 07:15.240
[SPEAKER_08]: And so to me, the idea of him as this father of the gen is really compelling because
07:15.220 --> 07:21.048
[SPEAKER_08]: God figure, where God created men, and then the devil created the gym.
07:21.088 --> 07:32.625
[SPEAKER_08]: And you would think that in a figure who is supposed to be evil and total evil and only want everybody to do bad things that the class of people that he creates would also be bad, but they're not, right?
07:32.665 --> 07:44.181
[SPEAKER_08]: Like the gym are just like humans and that they have propensity for good, they have propensity for evil and they're just kind of like another type of being that exists in this world, which is the same
07:44.735 --> 07:52.441
[SPEAKER_08]: What does that mean for a purely evil being to then just create like a morally neutral class of people like that.
07:52.542 --> 07:55.364
[SPEAKER_08]: I don't know that like these feels so contradictory to me.
07:55.844 --> 07:59.007
[SPEAKER_02]: These are not necessarily evil things.
07:59.527 --> 08:02.850
[SPEAKER_02]: They don't operate necessarily in contrast to God.
08:02.890 --> 08:06.133
[SPEAKER_02]: They're almost they almost function like bugs in the code.
08:06.313 --> 08:08.095
[SPEAKER_02]: They have jobs that they are fulfilling.
08:08.215 --> 08:14.640
[SPEAKER_02]: And when they tempt people sort of away from God, it's just them doing what for them is neutral actions.
08:14.890 --> 08:19.916
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's the devil, but also it's not an evil empty God.
08:20.036 --> 08:23.540
[SPEAKER_02]: It's just things that you as a person view as not good.
08:24.241 --> 08:27.464
[SPEAKER_08]: Good and not good for whom by what standard, right?
08:27.765 --> 08:31.769
[SPEAKER_08]: Because if we're thinking about this within the monotheistic tradition, right?
08:31.930 --> 08:38.357
[SPEAKER_08]: Whether it's Catholic, whether we're thinking about Muslim, whether even like in some cases Jewish tradition, right?
08:38.497 --> 08:41.100
[SPEAKER_08]: I mean, what are the values that work
08:41.080 --> 08:42.483
[SPEAKER_08]: being told or good.
08:42.703 --> 08:45.528
[SPEAKER_08]: And then what is the opposition of that?
08:45.969 --> 08:58.212
[SPEAKER_08]: And I mean, I really say like an example in our modern, unfortunately, political climate, there is a lot of fundamental like Christian beliefs that are coming out to justify like anti-transrist rhetoric.
08:58.192 --> 09:17.297
[SPEAKER_08]: When we consider it that way, if God is telling us, right, that trans people are bad and should, you know, blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff, if that's what we're being told, if that's how we're interpreting the story, then the devil, as kind of like the
09:17.277 --> 09:27.969
[SPEAKER_08]: It's so interesting to think about the relativistic nature of creating an entity that is evil because somebody has to decide what that evil is.
09:28.710 --> 09:35.298
[SPEAKER_02]: Because even in that case, the devil, as evil, by way of holding God to his own rules.
09:36.079 --> 09:43.487
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, hey, if God creates a thing that is perfect, the way that it comes out, and then God tells you, trans people are evil.
09:44.733 --> 09:47.241
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, God, where'd those trans people come from?
09:47.401 --> 09:48.665
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, where'd you get that one around, God?
09:48.906 --> 09:50.491
[SPEAKER_02]: Where'd that one come from?
09:50.592 --> 09:53.882
[SPEAKER_02]: They are perfect, you made them shut up old man.
10:12.610 --> 10:18.496
[SPEAKER_08]: One like demonic figure in particular that is really interesting to me, perhaps unsurprising is Lilith.
10:19.237 --> 10:26.605
[SPEAKER_08]: This figure that was cast down kind of similar to the devil himself for refusing to see herself as lesser than Adam.
10:26.625 --> 10:31.750
[SPEAKER_08]: And now she goes around and she like hunts men and that's the thing that she does.
10:32.230 --> 10:32.831
[SPEAKER_04]: Good for her.
10:32.851 --> 10:35.154
[SPEAKER_08]: I got right, Lilith.
10:35.174 --> 10:38.517
[SPEAKER_06]: What a queen.
10:38.750 --> 10:51.325
[SPEAKER_08]: we are casting this character this figure as a demon and in some stories actually the wife of the devil simply for you know saying actually maybe women aren't subservient to men.
10:51.524 --> 11:06.807
[SPEAKER_02]: D&G does a thing that I've never really been able to wrap my head around or really find the roots of in that like generally for Christianity, you have the devil, you have demons, and those are just the fallen angels beneath the devil.
11:06.867 --> 11:09.972
[SPEAKER_02]: The devil technically I suppose would be the headhonshire.
11:09.952 --> 11:11.975
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a title amongst demons.
11:12.716 --> 11:16.001
[SPEAKER_02]: But D&D was just like, no, no, no, two different guys, chaotic and lawful evil.
11:16.703 --> 11:28.621
[SPEAKER_02]: And they're constantly fighting, and they have the blood war, the, the, the, the, the devils, and the demons are just murdering each other constantly, and functionally, that's the reason the world exists.
11:29.262 --> 11:38.136
[SPEAKER_02]: Given the opportunity, if either side gets taken out of the equation, then the remaining one just goes, like, okay, well, now that I don't have to kill those pricks,
11:39.314 --> 11:40.516
[SPEAKER_02]: let's dominate the rest of it.
11:41.077 --> 11:44.404
[SPEAKER_03]: It seemed like on the devils and demons side, there's so much more of a gray area.
11:44.805 --> 11:46.388
[SPEAKER_03]: We're on the angel side.
11:46.408 --> 11:47.470
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like this is it.
11:47.750 --> 11:49.574
[SPEAKER_03]: There's no change whatsoever.
11:49.654 --> 11:51.377
[SPEAKER_03]: It's 100% this week.
11:51.457 --> 11:55.004
[SPEAKER_03]: We are totally infallible and could never be questioned.
11:55.024 --> 11:59.533
[SPEAKER_03]: And that feels a lot more evil than this does.
11:59.682 --> 12:01.926
[SPEAKER_08]: These are sentient sapient beings.
12:02.026 --> 12:04.631
[SPEAKER_08]: They have their own autonomy, they have their own.
12:04.911 --> 12:07.816
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, they must have their own autonomy if they can defy God.
12:08.457 --> 12:12.043
[SPEAKER_08]: In contrast, like you said, Arom, like angels are not treated the same way.
12:12.484 --> 12:20.037
[SPEAKER_08]: What I was taught anyway is that according to Islamic scripture that angels don't have free wealth, they don't have autonomy.
12:20.084 --> 12:21.146
[SPEAKER_03]: their robots, basically.
12:21.647 --> 12:25.695
[SPEAKER_02]: The thing that set humanity apart from angels was that we were given free will.
12:26.055 --> 12:28.620
[SPEAKER_02]: And then immediately an angel was like, no, that's not cool.
12:28.720 --> 12:30.043
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was left going on.
12:30.644 --> 12:31.265
[SPEAKER_02]: Wait, wait.
12:31.285 --> 12:31.746
[SPEAKER_07]: How?
12:31.766 --> 12:32.047
[SPEAKER_07]: Right.
12:32.127 --> 12:33.570
[SPEAKER_07]: And then that's the confusing part.
12:33.590 --> 12:34.431
[SPEAKER_07]: It's like, wait.
12:34.451 --> 12:39.782
[SPEAKER_07]: But if you were supposed to be an angel, that's supposed to have a lot of me, then like, how can you do that?
12:40.082 --> 12:40.523
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
12:40.503 --> 12:53.398
[SPEAKER_08]: And I think that that circle gets squared by just saying, okay, well, you know, at least was never an angel to begin with and was just the father of the gen, which I think can get bypassed that little like logic misstep for that happens.
12:53.581 --> 12:57.966
[SPEAKER_03]: Angels didn't just didn't think about it because they didn't think about it because it was because they don't have stray thoughts.
12:58.006 --> 13:20.833
[SPEAKER_03]: They only have thoughts about how they can serve God So when they were introduced to people suddenly they had to go bump and like Accept this new information, you know, and and one of them aired and end and that angel robot ended up You know have it to be taken off the line whoa wait free will is a thing saw Adam divided by zero That was an option the salt time.
13:20.993 --> 13:21.073
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah
13:21.053 --> 13:31.125
[SPEAKER_08]: But I mean, what does that say, right, to us when we're taught the only way to be good is to not have autonomy and the only way to be bad is to have it and to exercise it.
13:31.465 --> 13:42.758
[SPEAKER_02]: To not have autonomy or to remain ignorant, one of those two options, yeah, which immediately draws us back to the other inherent contradiction of like the devil rules over Helen tortures sinners like.
13:42.738 --> 13:43.239
[SPEAKER_02]: Why?
13:43.259 --> 13:57.287
[SPEAKER_02]: The first center, the biggest center, really, got punished for doing a sin and his response to that, despite living his entire existence after that in opposition to God, was to take in all the centers and be like, how dare you?
13:57.335 --> 13:59.879
[SPEAKER_08]: Because then, isn't that also an act in God's will?
14:00.359 --> 14:11.895
[SPEAKER_02]: It's, again, a place where I kind of like the D&D version of it in that, like, part of the reason hell will always be a threat is if you fail to serve heaven, you go to hell.
14:12.376 --> 14:15.180
[SPEAKER_02]: If you succeed in serving hell, you go to hell.
14:15.561 --> 14:24.473
[SPEAKER_02]: If you fail to serve hell, you'll still go to hell, run no matter how you got there.
14:24.537 --> 14:25.379
[SPEAKER_02]: We're all here.
14:25.439 --> 14:31.174
[SPEAKER_02]: We're all stuck here, but if you want to be in charge of one of the nine circles, you can do that.
14:31.355 --> 14:37.872
[SPEAKER_02]: If you want to not send your entire life and go to heaven, then you can continue to be an underlying for the entirety of your existence.
14:37.892 --> 14:38.253
[SPEAKER_02]: That's great.
14:38.293 --> 14:38.694
[SPEAKER_02]: Good for you.
14:39.356 --> 14:39.897
[SPEAKER_02]: Loser.
14:40.180 --> 14:57.041
[SPEAKER_08]: I think I like devils, as like a resistance metaphor, almost, you know, especially living in a world where living as like a marginalized person, you inherently become monsterized by the world at large, right?
14:57.081 --> 15:03.910
[SPEAKER_08]: The powers that be demue as immoral as a monster as deviant as like needing correcting in some way.
15:03.890 --> 15:11.366
[SPEAKER_08]: whether you're a person of color, whether you are trans, whether you're queer, disabled, poor, unhoused, whatever it is.
15:11.386 --> 15:12.869
[SPEAKER_08]: There's something wrong with you.
15:12.949 --> 15:16.096
[SPEAKER_08]: You have done something wrong, and it is internal within you.
15:16.136 --> 15:19.924
[SPEAKER_08]: And so there's just,
15:19.904 --> 15:26.892
[SPEAKER_08]: Like for me anyway, I can't help but feel like there is this parallel within these stories, right?
15:27.012 --> 15:42.228
[SPEAKER_08]: If we're looking at autonomy as being within the domain of the devils and being within the domain of evil and you know blindly following the rule of law as good, I don't relate to the angels, right?
15:42.268 --> 15:43.710
[SPEAKER_08]: I don't relate to the good.
15:43.730 --> 15:45.051
[SPEAKER_08]: I don't relate to that.
15:45.031 --> 16:08.625
[SPEAKER_08]: Um, and, you know, in a world in which me exercising my own autonomy, like is punished similarly and is, you know, pointed at as, well, that's immoral and that, you know, you shouldn't be doing that and you need to do something else instead, right, having that be my own lived experience, like it's hard for me to really see devils and the devil and like these kinds of figures, there's like really.
16:09.095 --> 16:11.924
[SPEAKER_08]: like truly evil like entities.
16:12.706 --> 16:15.796
[SPEAKER_08]: I think that they can be turned into that in a story.
16:15.856 --> 16:21.855
[SPEAKER_08]: But again, I will I was still put like a little asterisk on that because I will say evil by who standard.
16:22.460 --> 16:24.703
[SPEAKER_08]: there is an interpretation you have to make about that.
16:24.763 --> 16:33.635
[SPEAKER_08]: And like for me, I know what I can if I was going to create like a fully 100% evil being like, like I have ideas about what I could potentially do.
16:33.695 --> 16:37.159
[SPEAKER_08]: Like you know, as the devil of fascist, but those are no.
16:37.179 --> 16:41.685
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I could create a lot of fully evil beings, but they're currently in charge of my country.
16:41.826 --> 16:44.910
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there's no way I'll be able to see it at this point.
16:44.930 --> 16:46.712
[SPEAKER_07]: Lily, if we're going to do that.
16:46.692 --> 16:49.054
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, they did an interview with the guy from a black mirror.
16:49.074 --> 16:50.476
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, when's the next season come out?
16:50.496 --> 16:53.459
[SPEAKER_03]: He's like, I can't keep pace with reality.
16:53.719 --> 16:54.520
[SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know.
16:54.980 --> 17:01.187
[SPEAKER_03]: If I sat down and wrote every single night, reality is still gonna come up with something more dystopian than I come up with.
17:01.247 --> 17:02.268
[SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's hard.
17:02.668 --> 17:04.410
[SPEAKER_03]: It's real hard to do the fantasy thing.
17:04.690 --> 17:11.557
[SPEAKER_03]: When the real, I think the stats what keeps a tripping up Marvel because Marvel keeps introducing situations where there is clearly something wrong.
17:11.918 --> 17:14.020
[SPEAKER_03]: And the bad guys kind of have a point.
17:14.040 --> 17:16.362
[SPEAKER_03]: But then they have to go crazy.
17:16.342 --> 17:24.754
[SPEAKER_03]: So Marvel can get like come in and say, well, they had a point, but they went too far and now we don't have to solve anything Like that's the cause that's circle.
17:24.894 --> 17:29.721
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, that's my thing right is like I we can theoretically create a devil That is truly evil.
17:29.741 --> 17:36.510
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, the billionaire fascist right kind of dictator figure Who is out here to ruin everything good about the world?
17:36.490 --> 17:38.572
[SPEAKER_08]: But those are not the devil's I see in stories.
17:38.652 --> 17:43.338
[SPEAKER_08]: Those are not, that is not what I see depicted as evil in stories, right?
17:43.718 --> 17:48.704
[SPEAKER_08]: And so when I say that I don't, I have a hard time seeing devils as evil.
17:48.744 --> 17:55.752
[SPEAKER_08]: What I mean is that the way in which people tell these stories, the way in which we are showed them, I have a hard time seeing that as evil.
17:55.832 --> 18:05.383
[SPEAKER_08]: Not to say that it can't be done, but specifically that the things that we are portraying as bad about devils, I don't know if they are.
18:05.954 --> 18:18.012
[SPEAKER_02]: You almost have to do what functionally Dungeons & Dragons has done, where they's in an odd turn of events, they just dripped out the actual mythology.
18:18.092 --> 18:24.783
[SPEAKER_02]: They looked at the devil and were like, what if the only thing that we kept about this was color coding and the concept of hell?
18:26.165 --> 18:27.927
[SPEAKER_02]: Keep the, make the guys stay red, that's good.
18:28.008 --> 18:28.729
[SPEAKER_02]: I like that bit.
18:29.410 --> 18:31.573
[SPEAKER_02]: Pitchforks also, we'll keep those.
18:31.823 --> 18:33.746
[SPEAKER_08]: Tails and horns, wings.
18:33.967 --> 18:37.773
[SPEAKER_02]: Otherwise, the whole Halloween industry will just get what does get bought and that we can't have that.
18:38.154 --> 18:54.102
[SPEAKER_02]: You wind up with that description that I read off the top, like the raw concept of Devils in Dungeons and Dragons feels antithetical to everything we have said so far about the devil, about the actual sort of mythology around that revolt against heaven.
18:54.082 --> 19:01.215
[SPEAKER_02]: As medias is a tyrant who wants to conquer the world, but abolish the concept of free will be the most powerful.
19:01.376 --> 19:04.241
[SPEAKER_02]: These are just ambition and greed personified.
19:04.281 --> 19:10.633
[SPEAKER_03]: I do kind of like the idea of any evil guy going, well you all made the wrong choice, so now I'm going to make it for you.
19:11.074 --> 19:14.841
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I've always felt it to be a real good evil guy starting for it.
19:15.023 --> 19:16.545
[SPEAKER_08]: the pettiness, really.
19:17.787 --> 19:22.915
[SPEAKER_03]: If you want something to feel really evil, the more pettiness small you make it, why do you care this much?
19:22.935 --> 19:25.138
[SPEAKER_03]: Why do you put so much energy into this tiny little thing?
19:25.158 --> 19:26.540
[SPEAKER_03]: Why can't you just let this go?
19:26.560 --> 19:33.791
[SPEAKER_02]: It's why I like that idea of like, no, I don't know, devils exist because heaven sent out its soldiers and wouldn't take them back.
19:33.811 --> 19:36.255
[SPEAKER_02]: And as medias is...
19:36.235 --> 19:56.134
[SPEAKER_02]: the paddiest veteran who is sitting there going like, no, no, no, no, we're going to keep fighting this work so war isn't over and we're not done until the demons are dead, but also asthma days is pursuit of his personal deification is I will rebuild heaven for my men.
19:56.738 --> 19:57.880
[SPEAKER_02]: You won't take us back.
19:58.261 --> 20:02.730
[SPEAKER_02]: I will take the power I need to never fucking need you again.
20:02.770 --> 20:04.954
[SPEAKER_02]: And I will get a by any means necessary.
20:05.074 --> 20:06.718
[SPEAKER_02]: You wanted to save everyone else.
20:06.818 --> 20:07.319
[SPEAKER_02]: No, you don't.
20:07.479 --> 20:10.305
[SPEAKER_02]: You just showed me what you think about the people who work for you.
20:11.126 --> 20:12.349
[SPEAKER_07]: I'm a little scared about us.
20:12.649 --> 20:14.072
[SPEAKER_02]: It's fucking hot.
20:22.540 --> 20:36.925
[SPEAKER_02]: At the end of the day, when you take the devil and you make it like, no, as medias is functionally, like, again, great thing for fantasy to go like, no, this this creature is the personification of greed and just to further it, he's the arch devil.
20:37.526 --> 20:38.588
[SPEAKER_02]: He's not a god.
20:39.129 --> 20:42.034
[SPEAKER_02]: He's like a step below.
20:42.014 --> 20:43.035
[SPEAKER_02]: pisses him off.
20:43.856 --> 21:04.663
[SPEAKER_02]: And so now it's just this constant like war on two sides of like I have to now administer hell and make sure the demons don't get out of the cage but the entire time I'm sitting they're going like one of these days I'm gonna find a way to seize the vanity and I'm gonna come for all of the gods on their fucking little thrones.
21:04.643 --> 21:08.208
[SPEAKER_02]: because they thought they were too good to contribute to the war effort.
21:08.349 --> 21:12.215
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, this doesn't ring true with anything that that's happening right now.
21:12.235 --> 21:28.660
[SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
21:28.943 --> 21:34.052
[SPEAKER_02]: The moment you make Asma Day as a thing off on the mount and top, I guess the anti mount and top weight on at the bottom of the pit.
21:34.734 --> 21:39.182
[SPEAKER_02]: Then you come back to the idea of like hell as just pure capitalism.
21:40.384 --> 21:41.767
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, it's a meritocracy.
21:41.867 --> 21:42.909
[SPEAKER_02]: You died and went to hell.
21:43.330 --> 21:45.113
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you're gonna start off as a Lumiere.
21:45.093 --> 21:47.337
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're lucky, is it mains or lameras and hell?
21:47.357 --> 21:48.018
[SPEAKER_02]: I can never remember.
21:48.418 --> 21:48.719
[SPEAKER_02]: Whatever.
21:49.159 --> 21:53.506
[SPEAKER_02]: One day, if you get kicked enough times, you might get to be an imp, right?
21:53.526 --> 22:01.238
[SPEAKER_02]: And then if you help enough people die horribly, then we can talk about maybe promoting you to a horn devil, and then if you make it a sales.
22:01.779 --> 22:03.422
[SPEAKER_08]: I'm sorry, but hell is a business?
22:03.522 --> 22:04.423
[SPEAKER_07]: It's truly evil.
22:04.564 --> 22:06.507
[SPEAKER_07]: I need you to know that that's actually evil.
22:06.567 --> 22:07.869
[SPEAKER_02]: Like it's a fucking LLM?
22:07.889 --> 22:08.931
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's completely evil.
22:09.231 --> 22:11.134
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, like that's awful.
22:11.266 --> 22:15.615
[SPEAKER_02]: It's one of my favorite things we've done with this show has been just like Helen's an MLM.
22:16.236 --> 22:22.248
[SPEAKER_02]: Your soul is going in there in the only way you can get promoted is by getting enough souls to take your place.
22:22.649 --> 22:26.617
[SPEAKER_03]: The indie even has the currency already laid out because they've got soul coins right there.
22:26.838 --> 22:28.661
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it all works perfectly.
22:28.902 --> 22:30.405
[SPEAKER_09]: This is evil.
22:30.689 --> 22:33.253
[SPEAKER_09]: You're speaking evil into the world.
22:33.293 --> 22:37.721
[SPEAKER_03]: There's definitely like high-end vending machines in hell.
22:37.881 --> 22:40.866
[SPEAKER_03]: If you want to pop a soul coin and get a pack of cigarettes or whatever.
22:41.206 --> 22:47.216
[SPEAKER_02]: When you get to proper noun devils, we come back to the conversation about mythology and the devil and free will.
22:47.276 --> 22:54.889
[SPEAKER_02]: But again, once you go to devils, raw concept hell as just an object, you're just left with this is a capitalism.
22:55.209 --> 22:55.650
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.
23:04.270 --> 23:08.157
[SPEAKER_02]: When you die, if you serve a God and you serve that God well, you go to their heaven.
23:12.405 --> 23:19.078
[SPEAKER_02]: If you've denied a God, and it wasn't like hard enough to be sent out, you go to the plane of the dead.
23:22.645 --> 23:25.570
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's the city of the dead where the God of the dead lives in the middle.
23:28.250 --> 23:29.413
[SPEAKER_02]: and there's a wall around it.
23:29.553 --> 23:34.907
[SPEAKER_02]: And if you are a blasphemer, you go in the wall.
23:34.927 --> 23:38.175
[SPEAKER_02]: You're breaks now.
23:38.195 --> 23:39.338
[SPEAKER_02]: Ah, I don't remember the name of it.
23:40.220 --> 23:41.082
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a name of it.
23:41.543 --> 23:44.250
[SPEAKER_03]: If the wall was good enough for Pink Floyd, it's good enough for hell.
23:45.715 --> 23:47.217
[SPEAKER_02]: Hold on a second.
23:47.537 --> 23:49.039
[SPEAKER_03]: You're looking it up for you.
23:49.059 --> 23:49.700
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm looking it up.
23:49.740 --> 23:50.481
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you wanted it.
23:50.521 --> 23:51.883
[SPEAKER_02]: You wanted the proper noun for the wall.
23:51.903 --> 23:52.704
[SPEAKER_02]: We'll get it proper noun.
23:53.185 --> 23:54.587
[SPEAKER_02]: They go to the wall of the faceless.
23:55.087 --> 23:55.648
[SPEAKER_07]: Ah, of course.
23:55.929 --> 24:01.997
[SPEAKER_02]: The soul was bound into the living wall with a magical green mold as a mortar that held fast the faceless, preventing them from escaping.
24:02.077 --> 24:04.320
[SPEAKER_02]: The souls were said to ride their for eternity.
24:04.901 --> 24:09.667
[SPEAKER_02]: Over time, the mold caused the soul and its consciousness to dissolve into the very substance of the wall.
24:10.408 --> 24:13.512
[SPEAKER_02]: So you eventually become part of the hive mind of sad wall.
24:15.196 --> 24:17.179
[SPEAKER_08]: That sounds like the worst hive mind to be in.
24:17.219 --> 24:20.163
[SPEAKER_08]: And I don't think hive minds in general are fun.
24:20.183 --> 24:26.233
[SPEAKER_03]: That's the hive minds that have no ability to do, or decide anything that's just terrible.
24:26.974 --> 24:34.605
[SPEAKER_02]: Anybody sufficiently mediocre that they didn't go to their respective heaven and they didn't get into the wall.
24:34.585 --> 24:49.148
[SPEAKER_02]: Would get slapped into the fugue plane and just wander aimlessly and every once in a while the devils would come up Show up at kelom vores door turn to the god of the dead and go like hey, so we need a couple I need somebody I can make into an imp so I can keep slapping devils.
24:49.248 --> 24:57.100
[SPEAKER_02]: Can I just go grab some and they would do a negotiation and they would just Rake the fugue plane be like sorry man, you know how you didn't dying go to hell
24:57.080 --> 24:57.721
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you did.
24:58.162 --> 24:58.943
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, man.
24:59.023 --> 25:02.448
[SPEAKER_02]: And they would take him back and then they would become devils and then they would fight in the blood war.
25:02.689 --> 25:05.112
[SPEAKER_03]: Half of that, though, is just because Kalavor is such a dick.
25:05.413 --> 25:07.376
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, he was a better god.
25:07.416 --> 25:08.537
[SPEAKER_02]: He's the step up.
25:08.778 --> 25:09.799
[SPEAKER_02]: He's the worst.
25:09.920 --> 25:15.448
[SPEAKER_02]: There was Merkel and he sucked and then there was Syrik and he was real bad and then there was killed.
25:15.989 --> 25:18.733
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the peak of death, God so far.
25:20.485 --> 25:23.618
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, no, D&D death is all shit.
25:23.698 --> 25:24.100
[SPEAKER_02]: Hold that.
25:24.120 --> 25:24.983
[SPEAKER_07]: It's all bad.
25:25.003 --> 25:28.116
[SPEAKER_02]: You just wind up getting conscripted into capitalism war.
25:28.214 --> 25:54.475
[SPEAKER_03]: which is just war but okay yeah but like now for eternity yeah right you're never getting out yeah which is awful even death isn't an out of the hell army now because you just pop up back in basic training and they're like hey have you considered not doing so shit next time oh my god my heart just sunk a little bit of that idea of like not just getting back into the army but I have to go back into basic like if I had to go back into boot every time I screwed up in the
25:54.455 --> 25:57.558
[SPEAKER_02]: So what you've clearly demonstrated to me is you don't know how to do this job.
25:57.578 --> 25:58.799
[SPEAKER_02]: So let me tell you again.
25:58.839 --> 26:00.000
[SPEAKER_08]: That is truly help.
26:00.340 --> 26:03.243
[SPEAKER_03]: That really is like that did send a shiver up by spine.
26:03.623 --> 26:07.507
[SPEAKER_03]: But that's okay, they can't take me back as they gave me a piece of paper saying I'm too gay.
26:09.048 --> 26:09.308
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah?
26:09.809 --> 26:13.092
[SPEAKER_04]: Around is too gay for military service, too gay for the Navy.
26:13.232 --> 26:14.073
[SPEAKER_04]: That's real gay.
26:14.353 --> 26:14.453
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
26:14.573 --> 26:18.196
[SPEAKER_03]: Too gay for submarines, which may as well be the Yellowbrook Road.
26:18.357 --> 26:19.297
[SPEAKER_08]: That's so specific.
26:19.858 --> 26:24.462
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so specific.
26:24.442 --> 26:29.831
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to our Devil's Monsters.
26:30.513 --> 26:30.793
[SPEAKER_08]: Yes.
26:30.833 --> 26:31.975
[SPEAKER_08]: And, okay.
26:33.418 --> 26:33.959
[SPEAKER_08]: See, okay.
26:35.021 --> 26:36.844
[SPEAKER_08]: This is also a complicated question.
26:37.385 --> 26:38.166
[SPEAKER_08]: I would say yes.
26:38.366 --> 26:44.678
[SPEAKER_08]: Devil's are monsters by the very nature of their existence.
26:44.758 --> 26:47.783
[SPEAKER_08]: Monsters, like by definition, are aberrations.
26:47.763 --> 26:52.730
[SPEAKER_08]: they are deviations from what we consider to be the norm of something.
26:53.250 --> 26:56.014
[SPEAKER_08]: Unfortunately, like mutations, they are wrong.
26:56.815 --> 27:09.012
[SPEAKER_08]: And so by that definition of what a monster is, then Devils are inherently monsters because the first devil was created by being wrong.
27:08.992 --> 27:22.133
[SPEAKER_08]: by defying God, by saying no, by doing something that he was not supposed to do, he became an aberration and was cast down and turned into a devil and then, you know, all the other devils came after that.
27:22.593 --> 27:24.857
[SPEAKER_08]: And so, by that definition, yes.
27:25.327 --> 27:30.536
[SPEAKER_08]: That comes with so much moral complexity, though, because what does it mean to be a monster?
27:31.197 --> 27:39.531
[SPEAKER_08]: Who do we consider to be a monster in the same way that there is so much relativity abaked into the concepts of good and evil in and of themselves?
27:40.092 --> 27:48.567
[SPEAKER_08]: When we use that to then deem some people as monsters and some people as not, or some things as monsters and some things as not,
27:48.547 --> 27:56.743
[SPEAKER_08]: I think there's so much relativity around that too that I don't necessarily see monsters in monstrosity and it's necessarily bad or evil.
27:57.645 --> 28:09.188
[SPEAKER_08]: I think that there are traits to this category that we put people in or that we put creatures in that ask for us to unpack some of that a little bit more.
28:09.472 --> 28:12.396
[SPEAKER_03]: The angels don't like info questions, we just accept them.
28:12.456 --> 28:18.044
[SPEAKER_03]: The angels they exist, they do this exact thing, but the devils ask somebody questions.
28:18.224 --> 28:19.926
[SPEAKER_03]: It's so all-key, but how does this work?
28:19.946 --> 28:21.869
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think you feel about this, and what does that mean about this?
28:21.929 --> 28:26.455
[SPEAKER_03]: It's such a neat mirror on quote unquote universal good.
28:26.916 --> 28:28.378
[SPEAKER_03]: That makes this question good.
28:28.418 --> 28:35.648
[SPEAKER_03]: And maybe that's just the point of the devil to make us look at this system and go, mmm, I don't know.
28:35.628 --> 28:44.920
[SPEAKER_08]: Not only is it that the devil's themselves question, go ahead and question the rules and question God and that's why they're devils, but they're supposed to be tempters, right?
28:44.960 --> 28:48.525
[SPEAKER_08]: That's their role, is that they're supposed to tempt you into doing that, too.
28:48.965 --> 29:05.567
[SPEAKER_08]: And if we look at the some stories of Lilith paint her as the snake of Eden, some stories have them as two separate characters, but some will conflate the two, and they'll say that, oh, the snake in the garden of Eden was actually Lilith's corrupting Eve,
29:05.547 --> 29:06.068
[SPEAKER_08]: another woman.
29:07.049 --> 29:11.354
[SPEAKER_08]: Her cry, I'm so to speak, in that situation, is that she gave Eve knowledge.
29:11.694 --> 29:13.656
[SPEAKER_08]: She gave Eve autonomy.
29:13.676 --> 29:19.423
[SPEAKER_08]: She gave Eve the choice of what she wanted to be, and who she wanted to be, and how she wanted to live.
29:19.823 --> 29:20.865
[SPEAKER_08]: And that was her cry.
29:21.265 --> 29:22.927
[SPEAKER_08]: Was liberating somebody else.
29:23.508 --> 29:26.992
[SPEAKER_02]: If you eat from the tree of knowledge on that day, you will surely die.
29:27.772 --> 29:35.301
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's not just Lilith gave Eve knowledge.
29:36.327 --> 29:46.331
[SPEAKER_02]: And there is a bunch of like little apologists justifications that they used to try to get around who's like, oh, they would have been immortal, but on that day they signed themselves up for death.
29:46.411 --> 29:48.296
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, that's not what that sentence said.
29:48.336 --> 29:54.370
[SPEAKER_02]: That said, and said, on that day, you will start to die slowly just like all living creatures.
29:55.447 --> 29:57.330
[SPEAKER_08]: You will begin the process of decaying.
29:58.172 --> 30:01.237
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the next book outlines like the genealogy.
30:01.357 --> 30:03.641
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like 20, they got their whole lives ahead of them.
30:03.661 --> 30:05.304
[SPEAKER_02]: No, they have their whole lives ahead of them.
30:05.324 --> 30:07.087
[SPEAKER_02]: They die at like 500 years old.
30:07.368 --> 30:09.031
[SPEAKER_03]: No, they have a long, healthy life.
30:09.532 --> 30:11.515
[SPEAKER_02]: Have a lot of kids, good to go.
30:11.495 --> 30:15.302
[SPEAKER_02]: because the snake convinced Eve to eat of the tree.
30:15.843 --> 30:21.833
[SPEAKER_02]: God said that it would have to slither on its belly for all of eternity, and it took away its legs, and that's why snakes slither.
30:22.434 --> 30:25.740
[SPEAKER_02]: Part of the Garden of Eden story is justifying why snakes don't have legs.
30:26.080 --> 30:28.024
[SPEAKER_02]: The snake isn't the devil or Lilith.
30:28.504 --> 30:30.027
[SPEAKER_02]: It's snakes.
30:30.007 --> 30:34.974
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a lizard that had legs and as a punishment God was like no more likes for you.
30:35.575 --> 30:37.097
[SPEAKER_02]: It implies right up into that point.
30:37.158 --> 30:40.362
[SPEAKER_02]: It was like a big millipede just stomped it around the whole bunch of legs.
30:40.663 --> 30:49.636
[SPEAKER_07]: I don't know if it implied more than the normalish number but I think our arms rewriting the story so that it's actually a millipede.
30:49.836 --> 30:52.340
[SPEAKER_03]: Look it just lost its legs and had a long snake body.
30:52.360 --> 30:54.263
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's got to be a millipede.
30:54.303 --> 30:59.170
[SPEAKER_03]: You can't have two legs in the front and two legs in the back
30:59.150 --> 31:00.892
[SPEAKER_08]: Oh, like a weiner dog.
31:02.354 --> 31:15.533
[SPEAKER_02]: I was more just gonna say like you're really assuming that it has to be like way at the front of way at the back and not like it's got a kind of long neck and a hell of a tail No, no, no, no, there's no way legs working a snake unless there's many of them.
31:15.833 --> 31:20.339
[SPEAKER_04]: You're right around the Bible says that the snake That's right.
31:20.359 --> 31:28.971
[SPEAKER_04]: Take it up with God
31:30.622 --> 31:35.232
[SPEAKER_02]: What would you change about devils in Dungeons and Dragons?
31:35.448 --> 31:47.665
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, one thing I do like about Devils in Dungeons and Dragons is that there's so many different kinds of them, like they have a lot of different variations and a lot of different flavors of what Devils are in Dungeons and Dragons.
31:48.426 --> 32:02.485
[SPEAKER_08]: The way that Devils are functionally treated in D&D, they're more fodder interchangeable creatures that like you throw in a war at the front line and then, you know, they die, they're killed and then you just replace them and
32:02.465 --> 32:09.235
[SPEAKER_08]: it's this kind of thing like they they functionally don't matter as individuals which I don't love
32:09.333 --> 32:12.737
[SPEAKER_02]: You start off with Lumiere is which are just shit, they're garbage, that's it.
32:13.257 --> 32:24.410
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you get your imps, which have a sting, which grow up into a horned down, or which grow up into a spined devil, which is more just sort of flying guy.
32:24.430 --> 32:29.996
[SPEAKER_02]: And it just keeps oscillating between getting the ability to throw fire, being a guy with a spear again.
32:30.016 --> 32:31.578
[SPEAKER_02]: Now it can throw fire again.
32:31.698 --> 32:32.639
[SPEAKER_02]: Now it's a guy with some chains.
32:32.779 --> 32:33.921
[SPEAKER_02]: Now it can throw fire again.
32:33.981 --> 32:35.182
[SPEAKER_02]: Now it's a lady.
32:35.683 --> 32:36.724
[SPEAKER_02]: Now it's a scorpion.
32:36.764 --> 32:38.766
[SPEAKER_02]: Now it can throw fire again.
32:38.965 --> 32:42.749
[SPEAKER_08]: Yeah, there's not a lot of creativity in terms of like, what can devil's do?
32:42.850 --> 32:49.978
[SPEAKER_08]: And I think one thing that's really missing that I think could be fun is give them more magic.
32:50.038 --> 33:00.270
[SPEAKER_08]: Give them more a losery magic, give them more social based magic, give them the ability to tempt other people and to tempt their well and command suggestion.
33:00.310 --> 33:04.315
[SPEAKER_02]: You have like 16 different spells that are due a thing.
33:04.480 --> 33:14.015
[SPEAKER_08]: and even beyond that, I would elevate them to be more than just creature stat block for your random encounter or battle, whatever.
33:14.216 --> 33:24.312
[SPEAKER_08]: I would elevate them to NPC status and to make them full fledgid like sentient sapiens characters because for creatures that are supposed to have such like
33:24.292 --> 33:27.175
[SPEAKER_08]: soul-changing effects on people, right?
33:27.215 --> 33:39.065
[SPEAKER_08]: Because if you think about it, like, we're told that if a devil is not even like the devil, but if a devil successfully tempts you, you are condemned to hell, right?
33:39.125 --> 33:44.891
[SPEAKER_08]: Like you have made mistakes, and you either depending on what theology you follow, there might be ways to rectify that.
33:45.331 --> 33:50.756
[SPEAKER_08]: But if you don't, you've just condemned your soul to an eternity of hell, right, into punishment.
33:51.677 --> 33:52.898
[SPEAKER_08]: That's pretty big.
33:53.232 --> 33:56.076
[SPEAKER_02]: to make it worse within this particular system.
33:56.137 --> 34:00.624
[SPEAKER_02]: It's also, you've condemned yourself to becoming one of these.
34:00.784 --> 34:02.647
[SPEAKER_02]: You mentioned it being a soul changing thing.
34:02.667 --> 34:04.169
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not just, you'll go to hell.
34:04.249 --> 34:06.833
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll go to hell and become that guy.
34:06.994 --> 34:08.216
[SPEAKER_07]: It's you win the MLM.
34:08.436 --> 34:08.776
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
34:09.037 --> 34:12.622
[SPEAKER_07]: And then now you got to say a top of where now.
34:12.643 --> 34:14.245
[SPEAKER_07]: And that's awful.
34:14.225 --> 34:22.499
[SPEAKER_02]: If you just change that mythology to be like, oh, well, the chain devils are specifically things that tempt you to freedom.
34:22.919 --> 34:25.584
[SPEAKER_02]: It's a symbolic thing that's why they're covered in chains.
34:26.866 --> 34:27.948
[SPEAKER_02]: No, they're not.
34:27.968 --> 34:30.672
[SPEAKER_03]: No, they may be, it's supposed for some people.
34:31.013 --> 34:35.160
[SPEAKER_03]: I was thinking they're more than the most hellraiser ones, which is why I like them.
34:35.560 --> 34:41.430
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're asking about hellraiser ones, I mean, what one, hellraiser is all BDSM horseship.
34:41.782 --> 34:45.531
[SPEAKER_02]: So that is saying it's not horny, it's hell razor, wrong.
34:46.709 --> 34:48.551
[SPEAKER_06]: on the premise.
34:48.571 --> 34:48.691
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
34:48.711 --> 34:49.151
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, fair.
34:49.211 --> 34:50.753
[SPEAKER_02]: No, he's just saying that it's fair.
34:50.833 --> 34:51.393
[SPEAKER_02]: No, okay.
34:51.474 --> 34:53.315
[SPEAKER_02]: No, the scariest one is the bone devil.
34:53.896 --> 34:56.879
[SPEAKER_02]: A thing made of spines and hellish spikes.
34:57.039 --> 35:05.087
[SPEAKER_02]: It's what if scorpions had wings and also hated you specifically as opposed to nebulously would hate you if you got near it.
35:05.627 --> 35:09.130
[SPEAKER_03]: Ice devil sucks too because like, why is he called that scary?
35:09.391 --> 35:10.612
[SPEAKER_03]: You shouldn't be cold and bad.
35:10.632 --> 35:11.273
[SPEAKER_07]: You're a hell.
35:11.453 --> 35:12.734
[SPEAKER_07]: It's supposed to be fiery.
35:12.774 --> 35:14.215
[SPEAKER_07]: Why do you have ice?
35:14.235 --> 35:15.136
[SPEAKER_02]: That's terrifying.
35:15.256 --> 35:15.957
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
35:16.308 --> 35:21.496
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's exactly it, is like, you could pull shit where you're like, these are purpose-built creatures.
35:21.937 --> 35:31.712
[SPEAKER_02]: Why is that called, I don't know, symbolism or something, or it's like, hell needs to do a certain job, so you are formed to do that job.
35:31.953 --> 35:33.956
[SPEAKER_02]: You are part of the ecosystem now.
35:34.417 --> 35:35.819
[SPEAKER_02]: You could do a lot of stuff with that.
35:35.859 --> 35:41.708
[SPEAKER_02]: By making them into this thing where it is literally just like, oh, you want to run a campaign?
35:41.688 --> 35:44.595
[SPEAKER_02]: you need some villains for any given level of party.
35:45.376 --> 35:47.020
[SPEAKER_02]: I got a stack of guys.
35:47.521 --> 35:52.312
[SPEAKER_03]: Plus what they are villains that you can kill remorselessly for the most part.
35:52.433 --> 35:58.667
[SPEAKER_03]: Like if they're demons or devils like you don't have to like have a big moral quandary about it, you can just take them out.
35:58.647 --> 36:14.692
[SPEAKER_08]: Which again, like I would encourage us to like really unpack that right is to unpack this idea that there ever can be a creature and to see that is just you know 100% just a viable to always kill no matter what right it also makes it easier when you know they're just going to pop it.
36:14.713 --> 36:19.440
[SPEAKER_03]: We're not actually killing them you're just giving them a ticket to come out of your way.
36:19.420 --> 36:36.552
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but even then like again, they're they're not just devils like who knows how long the process takes Maybe it's a fucking millennium, but a thousand years ago that bone devil you just evicted back to the pits of Stigia Was a guy
36:37.966 --> 36:40.732
[SPEAKER_02]: That person did something, and it was bad.
36:41.113 --> 36:42.295
[SPEAKER_02]: But how bad was it?
36:42.796 --> 36:43.738
[SPEAKER_02]: Was it even bad?
36:43.899 --> 36:47.266
[SPEAKER_02]: Were they mediocre and way back in the day when Merkel was in charge?
36:47.326 --> 36:51.856
[SPEAKER_02]: He was just wandering around an empty plane until some guy showed up and was like, hey mother fucker.
36:51.896 --> 36:55.283
[SPEAKER_02]: Into the war, let's go.
36:55.786 --> 37:12.667
[SPEAKER_08]: It would be really interesting to see devils framed as, you can put them as antagonists in your campaign, and I think it could be really interesting to see them play less on a combat level, but more on the social role like kind of side of a campaign.
37:12.747 --> 37:18.975
[SPEAKER_08]: Like imagine a antagonist that is a devil that kind of like leans into that like,
37:18.955 --> 37:48.355
[SPEAKER_08]: If you wanted to play with a contract side of how right you can lean into that and have them like tempt your players into supposedly the incorrect choice you can present more equandries to your players through double characters they are really interesting vehicles for giving your characters complicated choices to make where there is no really right or wrong answer but every answer has a consequence and it's heavy and has implications for your campaign
37:48.335 --> 37:54.548
[SPEAKER_08]: something that could irrevocably change their life for their soul in some way or their fate.
37:54.928 --> 38:06.512
[SPEAKER_08]: I think like that is where devil shine in narratives for me personally and I feel like we do them such a disservice if we just throw them into a battle and you just kill them and that's it, you know?
38:06.728 --> 38:10.035
[SPEAKER_03]: Because people can be as evil and end terrifying as they need to be.
38:10.055 --> 38:18.192
[SPEAKER_03]: The thing that makes devils a little bit scary is that they have all this power to back it up and all of this temptation that can grab you at any moment.
38:18.212 --> 38:27.150
[SPEAKER_03]: If you say the wrong thing, if you think the wrong thing in front of them, that's what makes them so frightening that they are exactly like us just more.
38:27.620 --> 38:31.587
[SPEAKER_02]: The thing that you brought up on the idea that they have designs.
38:32.548 --> 38:38.278
[SPEAKER_02]: And the Dungeon Master, or like the monster manual, brings it up every chance it gets.
38:38.919 --> 38:44.388
[SPEAKER_02]: Ooh, Abel, it's have wheels with it wheels, thousand year plans, hacks, half thousand year plans.
38:44.448 --> 38:45.730
[SPEAKER_02]: Dragons are so ancient.
38:45.770 --> 38:47.272
[SPEAKER_02]: They have thousand year plans.
38:47.292 --> 38:50.117
[SPEAKER_02]: As Medea says, he's been there since the beginning.
38:50.097 --> 38:59.652
[SPEAKER_02]: And since the beginning, as Madaya says looked up to the peaks of Mount Celestia from the bottom of the pits of hell, and thought, I'm coming.
39:01.015 --> 39:02.677
[SPEAKER_02]: Fuck you, what better villain is there?
39:02.717 --> 39:05.642
[SPEAKER_02]: Nothing is good, that's it, that's the game.
39:22.936 --> 39:23.678
[SPEAKER_02]: around.
39:23.698 --> 39:27.329
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, there are dozens of ways.
39:27.931 --> 39:34.110
[SPEAKER_02]: A person as traveled as you have, you've heard stories you can get devils.
39:34.478 --> 39:35.640
[SPEAKER_02]: however you need to.
39:36.020 --> 39:37.323
[SPEAKER_03]: There's many paths to help.
39:37.623 --> 39:39.045
[SPEAKER_03]: They're all paved with good intentions.
39:39.186 --> 39:39.546
[SPEAKER_03]: They are.
39:40.267 --> 39:42.531
[SPEAKER_03]: But not, but not this one.
39:42.551 --> 39:43.633
[SPEAKER_02]: Not any road I'm on.
39:45.255 --> 39:57.094
[SPEAKER_02]: The trouble you keep running into is a lot of these roads also involve things like, you know, having to do complex binding rituals and like you're a competent magician, but like not.
39:57.867 --> 40:00.349
[SPEAKER_02]: Not like that, the geometry of the...
40:00.369 --> 40:04.092
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, exactly, you need a simple, simple and direct.
40:04.533 --> 40:05.334
[SPEAKER_03]: I know a few tricks.
40:06.074 --> 40:07.375
[SPEAKER_03]: I am a lore bard.
40:07.636 --> 40:10.658
[SPEAKER_03]: So I know a couple tricks, you know, mom was a cleric.
40:11.179 --> 40:14.381
[SPEAKER_03]: Dad was a wizard, so I picked up a couple things here and there.
40:15.222 --> 40:19.506
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so just genetically, genetically, I'm set up for this.
40:20.407 --> 40:26.592
[SPEAKER_04]: Yes, I am the ultimate nepoch baby in order to deal with the double.
40:26.572 --> 40:27.093
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
40:28.416 --> 40:28.496
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes.
40:28.516 --> 40:29.438
[SPEAKER_02]: Which is like to know my name.
40:31.382 --> 40:31.703
[SPEAKER_02]: Never.
40:31.903 --> 40:34.649
[SPEAKER_02]: I always hate knowing your names, but feel free to say it.
40:34.669 --> 40:38.978
[SPEAKER_02]: I am a human, lorebard named River Frostwind.
40:39.667 --> 40:42.871
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, that's actually, that's just barge it, that tracks.
40:44.233 --> 40:51.301
[SPEAKER_02]: I, over under on it being, uh, being a stage name, I'm saying definitely, but, you know, 100% a stage name.
40:51.602 --> 40:52.062
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
40:52.082 --> 40:52.623
[SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.
40:53.424 --> 41:03.396
[SPEAKER_02]: I think in a long, long time researching this, just a sort of a side project, dad's old note, some of the stories your mother told you.
41:04.169 --> 41:18.113
[SPEAKER_02]: What you arrived is the trivial way, the only trivial way to gain control over a devil is by true name, which is hard to get, it's hard to find the true name of a devil.
41:19.155 --> 41:27.409
[SPEAKER_02]: Where I think your actual cleverness came about in this whole adventure was the realization that if devils are people,
41:27.507 --> 41:31.373
[SPEAKER_02]: you don't have to find a devil's true name.
41:32.195 --> 41:37.543
[SPEAKER_02]: You have to find a sufficiently shitty person's true name, who died.
41:37.604 --> 41:43.012
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, they're just playing the long game here.
41:43.032 --> 41:43.814
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
41:43.834 --> 41:45.376
[SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, he's fairly crappy.
41:45.396 --> 41:48.421
[SPEAKER_02]: They're like, make sure they die, right?
41:48.441 --> 41:48.942
[SPEAKER_02]: Like.
41:49.394 --> 41:51.016
[SPEAKER_02]: I go into the fucking library.
41:51.156 --> 41:52.658
[SPEAKER_02]: I find Hitler's true name.
41:53.239 --> 41:53.359
[SPEAKER_02]: Done.
41:53.600 --> 41:54.140
[SPEAKER_02]: Hand right.
41:54.321 --> 41:55.582
[SPEAKER_02]: That's what you're saying.
41:55.963 --> 41:57.345
[SPEAKER_03]: I know enough bad people.
41:58.046 --> 41:59.167
[SPEAKER_03]: Some of them tend to die.
41:59.407 --> 42:05.415
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'd have to keep checking in to see what of them turned into some sort of evil creature in hell.
42:05.736 --> 42:06.036
[SPEAKER_03]: All right.
42:06.297 --> 42:08.820
[SPEAKER_03]: That seems as good a way going about this as any.
42:09.290 --> 42:26.168
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just got like a little flip book, but just shitty people on Death Store, checking with the morgue once a week, just like whoever you could find a true name for and like verify the death of because God, you don't want to go into a summoning ritual.
42:26.350 --> 42:28.756
[SPEAKER_02]: Use the true name come to me.
42:30.039 --> 42:37.417
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and like just a 95-year-old Half-Link pops up at your feet like what the fuck is this?
42:39.181 --> 42:41.507
[SPEAKER_03]: I was talking
42:41.487 --> 42:46.479
[SPEAKER_03]: All right, so I'm basically, I've got some names of bad people.
42:46.679 --> 42:52.553
[SPEAKER_03]: I got a guy, I bribe a couple silver at the morgue for more, and I just check the names off.
42:52.573 --> 42:56.863
[SPEAKER_03]: And if I find one that lines up, what's the plan there?
42:56.843 --> 42:59.207
[SPEAKER_02]: That's, that's where I want to hand it to you.
42:59.227 --> 42:59.768
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I've got you.
42:59.788 --> 43:02.533
[SPEAKER_02]: Is I've given you a mechanism to get a devil?
43:02.714 --> 43:08.865
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to know what you think your sort of appropriate ritual is.
43:09.846 --> 43:11.149
[SPEAKER_03]: Here's my thought process.
43:11.509 --> 43:13.833
[SPEAKER_03]: If I'm the guy, the guy's dead, right?
43:14.034 --> 43:16.438
[SPEAKER_03]: I need to be as close to that as possible.
43:16.518 --> 43:17.520
[SPEAKER_03]: That's what I've been told.
43:17.600 --> 43:20.826
[SPEAKER_03]: So I am, I am breaking into this guy's house.
43:26.273 --> 43:31.238
[SPEAKER_03]: to go perform the ritual in this guy's house who like died yesterday.
43:32.230 --> 43:33.752
[SPEAKER_03]: We're going for a fresh one.
43:34.072 --> 43:36.135
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I got his close to the source as possible.
43:36.155 --> 43:41.682
[SPEAKER_03]: There's like, I have some like little arcane trick or someone sold me something, right?
43:41.762 --> 43:43.404
[SPEAKER_03]: It's gotta be something someone sold me.
43:43.424 --> 43:46.427
[SPEAKER_03]: Where I have to go as close as the guy died as possible.
43:46.467 --> 43:51.213
[SPEAKER_03]: So I have to go to the room where he died as soon as possible to track him to hell.
43:51.954 --> 43:53.977
[SPEAKER_02]: I want you to just give me a stealth role.
43:53.997 --> 43:54.297
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure.
43:54.497 --> 43:57.681
[SPEAKER_02]: Up and down, we're not gonna worry about getting too far into the situation.
43:58.015 --> 44:00.781
[SPEAKER_02]: that is going to be an 11 plus 3 is 14.
44:01.423 --> 44:06.594
[SPEAKER_02]: A 14 is you did pretty good for a person with no training, right?
44:06.835 --> 44:07.737
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's true.
44:08.098 --> 44:08.499
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
44:08.519 --> 44:15.855
[SPEAKER_02]: A 14 is what someone with zero dexterity, zero stealth skill could pull off reasonably.
44:15.835 --> 44:21.261
[SPEAKER_03]: If I run into any problems whatsoever, I will charm and friends my way out of whatever I need to.
44:21.722 --> 44:28.549
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think this is straight up like, you know this guy's wife is going to leave to stay with her sister for a few days.
44:28.930 --> 44:30.451
[SPEAKER_02]: Sure, it's been a hard time for her.
44:30.471 --> 44:33.815
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's really rough for whoever this bitch is.
44:33.955 --> 44:36.518
[SPEAKER_02]: Her husband was like, oh, hey, hey, she's a nice lady.
44:37.579 --> 44:39.121
[SPEAKER_04]: She's like, don't say that about mod.
44:39.161 --> 44:39.882
[SPEAKER_02]: I like mod.
44:40.042 --> 44:43.446
[SPEAKER_02]: She was married to someone who you looked at and were like,
44:43.426 --> 44:45.911
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, now that he's dead, that's definitely a devil.
44:46.251 --> 44:48.656
[SPEAKER_02]: She was long-suffering, what are the things about those?
44:48.676 --> 44:50.600
[SPEAKER_02]: I was like, well, at least she'll get away from him.
44:50.980 --> 44:52.283
[SPEAKER_02]: This lovely lady.
44:52.684 --> 44:53.064
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
44:53.325 --> 44:55.389
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, that it's a completely recontextualized.
44:55.409 --> 45:00.940
[SPEAKER_02]: This lady was like, finally, I'm gonna take a bunch of his nicest shit.
45:01.400 --> 45:02.943
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna go to my sisters.
45:02.984 --> 45:04.827
[SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna put on a bunch of it.
45:04.807 --> 45:06.630
[SPEAKER_02]: And then they're going on vacation.
45:06.711 --> 45:26.307
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna come back for the funeral to make it look good The last anyone think that this was a murder because it's super wasn't right Absolutely thought yeah, no never So you watch this woman trying to out with a clanking bag Just get into this carriage.
45:26.407 --> 45:28.030
[SPEAKER_02]: It slams shut you across the way
45:47.669 --> 45:51.094
[SPEAKER_02]: and you come around just through the back alley over the fence.
45:51.595 --> 45:53.037
[SPEAKER_02]: It is in an elegant climb.
45:53.458 --> 45:56.082
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't manage, you don't rip any clothes, it's 14, it's pretty good.
45:56.363 --> 46:03.754
[SPEAKER_04]: But it's like that camera shot where you're like, I mean, you just see it fall and then you get back up, brush yourself off a whole lot of...
46:08.122 --> 46:13.473
[SPEAKER_02]: to turn around, realize you can't go in the front door because it's still lit by this greet lamps.
46:14.195 --> 46:18.364
[SPEAKER_02]: And then restart the process when you have to go up the trellis to get into the office window.
46:18.985 --> 46:20.809
[SPEAKER_02]: Good minor illusion away a few lights too.
46:22.553 --> 46:24.898
[SPEAKER_02]: You get up, you get in there, you find like,
46:29.131 --> 46:39.910
[SPEAKER_02]: Literally the deathbed right spread this guy slowly Wasted away Where they left his corpse frankly because like gonna have to do the funeral soon.
46:39.930 --> 46:40.471
[SPEAKER_02]: We're just gonna.
46:40.952 --> 46:42.334
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, he's there the bodies there.
46:42.454 --> 46:42.915
[SPEAKER_02]: Why not?
46:42.935 --> 46:43.296
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay sure.
46:43.376 --> 46:45.159
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess it's to get ye old times.
46:45.299 --> 46:46.181
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of these enough.
46:46.621 --> 46:47.022
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, okay
46:47.002 --> 46:49.085
[SPEAKER_03]: They're not carting them off to a morgue.
46:49.325 --> 46:51.147
[SPEAKER_03]: That's where the filthy peasant corpses are.
46:51.688 --> 46:52.469
[SPEAKER_03]: Right, right, right.
46:52.529 --> 46:56.894
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, actually part of the thing I'm doing is the body had to be there.
46:56.914 --> 46:57.134
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
46:57.155 --> 46:57.755
[SPEAKER_03]: I had to die.
46:57.795 --> 47:00.058
[SPEAKER_02]: The body had to still have to be there so soon.
47:00.138 --> 47:08.288
[SPEAKER_02]: Because otherwise you got to do it in the middle of the morgue, and that's just like, you don't want to be doing complicated invoking hell magic around corpses.
47:09.009 --> 47:11.372
[SPEAKER_03]: No, not up not a bunch of them anyway.
47:12.955 --> 47:14.458
[SPEAKER_03]: one I could add though.
47:14.478 --> 47:24.701
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think the magic item that I have is this like bluish mercury-looking thing, you know, they said be very, very, very careful to not spill it on you at all.
47:24.821 --> 47:29.952
[SPEAKER_03]: And you just have to have this little teeny brush and you just paint it on the corpse's lips.
47:29.932 --> 47:33.739
[SPEAKER_03]: and then the corpse will whisper their true name.
47:34.100 --> 47:38.168
[SPEAKER_03]: Even though I already know it, but you know, just in case like they have a nickname or something.
47:38.448 --> 47:39.330
[SPEAKER_02]: Let's we'll go with this.
47:39.490 --> 47:41.233
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't know his true name.
47:41.293 --> 47:42.235
[SPEAKER_02]: You know his name.
47:42.275 --> 47:47.485
[SPEAKER_02]: You know his death and like you, you've now got all of this shit of like basically speak with that into true name.
47:47.946 --> 47:50.691
[SPEAKER_02]: And then once I have the true name, I can use that to call forth it up.
47:50.711 --> 47:51.653
[SPEAKER_02]: So exactly.
47:51.633 --> 47:55.667
[SPEAKER_02]: Before you get the true name from this guy, he whispers it out to you.
47:55.808 --> 48:01.407
[SPEAKER_02]: It is an arcane series of syllables and what we're going to say to avoid me having to make up a true name.
48:08.542 --> 48:15.370
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that part of the magic around this is essentially once you hear it, you can speak it back, right?
48:15.770 --> 48:20.776
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, it is one of those things that like the sounds just register in your brain directly.
48:21.938 --> 48:28.225
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can speak it back into the world, but there is no audible sound associated with it.
48:28.245 --> 48:31.188
[SPEAKER_02]: You are speaking the truth of who this person was.
48:31.609 --> 48:31.889
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
48:32.790 --> 48:33.711
[SPEAKER_02]: So you come in.
48:34.773 --> 48:36.034
[SPEAKER_02]: And there's the corpse.
48:36.166 --> 48:50.416
[SPEAKER_02]: lying in repose all fancy wearing a nice suit you look around and you can see where like candle holders that were like therefore years have been taken because they were high high quality.
48:51.539 --> 48:54.124
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a couple little like
48:54.104 --> 48:58.008
[SPEAKER_02]: The shitty little guys that you're using to get to the bathroom in the middle of the night are still around.
48:58.708 --> 49:01.150
[SPEAKER_02]: All the guys' personal effects that weren't up at your value.
49:01.291 --> 49:02.111
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
49:02.131 --> 49:02.832
[SPEAKER_03]: Those are all there.
49:02.852 --> 49:07.857
[SPEAKER_02]: It's still... Yeah, there's still some clothes, because like, no one's buying old man suits.
49:08.657 --> 49:11.280
[SPEAKER_02]: You get in, get yourself set up, do the little paint.
49:11.360 --> 49:17.706
[SPEAKER_02]: He whispers this arcane, like just a perturbation in the weave of magic that enters your brain.
49:21.229 --> 49:22.330
[SPEAKER_03]: How do you set up the ritual?
49:22.350 --> 49:23.571
[SPEAKER_03]: What does this look like?
49:23.737 --> 49:27.442
[SPEAKER_03]: I would take the candles that are still there, right?
49:27.662 --> 49:53.558
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would pull out the bag of salt and the three scales off of a kite and just, you don't mash those up, grind everything up and pour the ring out along the floor, put the candles down along the ring, light them by mentioning something each time with the word,
49:53.538 --> 49:56.643
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would say the true name of this guy.
49:57.825 --> 50:08.003
[SPEAKER_02]: You speak his name, and again, it is a thing where you can feel your vocal cords vibrate, you feel the air move over your mouth, and absolutely no sound happens.
50:12.100 --> 50:18.750
[SPEAKER_02]: The room vibrates with the power of a true, a spoken, intentional, true name.
50:20.232 --> 50:25.680
[SPEAKER_02]: And you watch the man's chest sort of flare up and sort of relax back.
50:26.041 --> 50:32.190
[SPEAKER_02]: You look, and his mouth opens and you can see with like the seasonally, it looks like the corpse is gasping for breath.
50:34.293 --> 50:40.723
[SPEAKER_02]: And then you see a clawed hand, small, maybe like the size of a cat's paw.
50:40.838 --> 50:53.349
[SPEAKER_02]: come out of the mouth, grab at the chin, pull the chin, of course, pull shut, because that's how hinges work, bites the arm, f**k!
50:53.389 --> 50:56.417
[SPEAKER_02]: Second hand comes out to the other side of the mouth, f**k!
51:03.738 --> 51:04.479
[SPEAKER_02]: was like a hand.
51:05.520 --> 51:09.665
[SPEAKER_02]: The man vomits up a devil.
51:11.027 --> 51:15.873
[SPEAKER_02]: The wings sort of unfurl mucusy disgusting awful smells of sulfur.
51:16.634 --> 51:19.397
[SPEAKER_02]: The man clearly has burn marks around like his lips now.
51:20.478 --> 51:21.640
[SPEAKER_02]: It does not smell.
51:22.060 --> 51:31.011
[SPEAKER_02]: It's that horrible intersection of like there's a bit of your brain that recognizes smell of burnt meat grusseless, right?
51:30.991 --> 51:32.893
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it gets up.
51:33.054 --> 51:33.714
[SPEAKER_02]: It stands up.
51:34.195 --> 51:38.080
[SPEAKER_02]: He is sizzling.
51:38.100 --> 51:38.220
[SPEAKER_05]: Hmm.
51:38.240 --> 51:39.382
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, Palace Ballsack.
51:39.862 --> 51:41.504
[SPEAKER_03]: What's this guy's like given name?
51:41.564 --> 51:42.205
[SPEAKER_03]: Like Leonard.
51:42.225 --> 51:42.906
[SPEAKER_03]: Let's say Leonard.
51:42.926 --> 51:44.108
[SPEAKER_03]: Leonard's a good name.
51:44.448 --> 51:47.272
[SPEAKER_02]: Leonard's a good old man piece of shit name.
51:47.432 --> 51:50.235
[SPEAKER_02]: If you're Leonard out there, I'm so sorry.
51:51.016 --> 51:51.837
[SPEAKER_02]: On the bright side.
51:52.698 --> 51:54.501
[SPEAKER_02]: In like 50 years, you can be a dickhead.
51:54.541 --> 51:57.645
[SPEAKER_02]: And everybody would be like that tracks.
51:57.665 --> 51:58.686
[SPEAKER_02]: Leonard.
51:58.953 --> 52:08.090
[SPEAKER_02]: Turns to you the small Leonard standing atop the big Leonard sure a little frail looking Roughly the size of a cat if the cat stood up.
52:08.110 --> 52:20.995
[SPEAKER_02]: You can see the rocks on it's on a human corpse Wings that are still like a good two feet across the wings completely dwarf the The thing itself
52:22.207 --> 52:28.534
[SPEAKER_02]: It's still trying to work out how to control its tail, which is a problem because there's a stinger on it.
52:28.574 --> 52:29.995
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's like tearing sheets.
52:30.496 --> 52:33.479
[SPEAKER_02]: It's cutting up his own like funerary suit.
52:34.780 --> 52:36.362
[SPEAKER_02]: At one point, he just like grabs it.
52:36.782 --> 52:42.548
[SPEAKER_02]: Just like, okay, this is- Just laws him hang on to it, sure.
52:42.568 --> 52:42.668
[UNKNOWN]: Okay.
52:42.688 --> 52:42.889
[SPEAKER_02]: All right.
52:42.909 --> 52:43.589
[SPEAKER_05]: It looks strange.
52:44.771 --> 52:46.172
[SPEAKER_05]: So.
52:46.507 --> 52:59.239
[SPEAKER_05]: Everything about what I am right now, implies that this is definitely not happen, but also you don't look like Bale's a Baba or whatever the fuck, so this clearly isn't hell.
52:59.839 --> 53:02.642
[SPEAKER_03]: No, you are right back where you started.
53:02.682 --> 53:05.765
[SPEAKER_03]: Well ended, you are right back where you ended.
53:05.785 --> 53:07.166
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't?
53:08.067 --> 53:13.932
[SPEAKER_05]: Like... With a fucker you.
53:14.097 --> 53:16.780
[SPEAKER_03]: Hello, I am River Frostwitend.
53:17.080 --> 53:17.981
[SPEAKER_03]: That's a fake name.
53:19.063 --> 53:21.585
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, I don't believe yours is true either, Leonard.
53:22.066 --> 53:27.012
[SPEAKER_03]: But I am here in order for you to give me great gifts.
53:27.953 --> 53:34.620
[SPEAKER_02]: It starts to walk towards you immediately, like trips and stumbles, the tail flings out, stabs himself in the way.
53:34.640 --> 53:36.663
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, oh.
53:36.683 --> 53:41.528
[SPEAKER_05]: I am clearly... No mere mortal man, any longer.
53:42.109 --> 53:43.210
[SPEAKER_05]: Correct.
53:43.257 --> 53:50.249
[SPEAKER_05]: Why would I do a God's damn thing for someone with such a shitty fake name?
53:51.190 --> 53:51.931
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, could you have to?
53:52.051 --> 53:53.955
[SPEAKER_03]: Because I called you here and I put you in the circle.
53:54.335 --> 53:55.617
[SPEAKER_05]: I have to do fucking anything for you.
53:56.739 --> 53:57.981
[SPEAKER_03]: Get to the edge of the circle.
53:58.923 --> 53:59.824
[SPEAKER_03]: Like it's a cartoon.
54:00.125 --> 54:00.525
[SPEAKER_03]: He's thump.
54:01.868 --> 54:02.809
[SPEAKER_03]: Slide down the wall.
54:03.070 --> 54:04.392
[SPEAKER_05]: Mother of fucking!
54:04.792 --> 54:06.936
[SPEAKER_03]: See, that means you have to do the thing.
54:07.034 --> 54:08.396
[SPEAKER_05]: Elizabeth, get in here.
54:08.777 --> 54:09.659
[SPEAKER_03]: Dude, she's long gone.
54:09.699 --> 54:10.661
[SPEAKER_03]: She took the silverware.
54:10.941 --> 54:12.244
[SPEAKER_03]: She's off with her sister.
54:12.564 --> 54:13.586
[SPEAKER_03]: She looked pretty happy.
54:13.947 --> 54:16.752
[SPEAKER_02]: Looks around the room starts clocking what's missing.
54:18.315 --> 54:18.415
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
54:18.435 --> 54:20.098
[SPEAKER_05]: That absolutely... Hmm.
54:20.118 --> 54:21.881
[SPEAKER_03]: I can see why she left you.
54:22.462 --> 54:22.743
[SPEAKER_03]: Fine.
54:22.763 --> 54:23.003
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
54:23.244 --> 54:24.806
[SPEAKER_03]: Look, she was into Death to your part.
54:24.847 --> 54:25.648
[SPEAKER_03]: She did her part.
54:26.209 --> 54:26.670
[SPEAKER_03]: She's done.
54:27.031 --> 54:27.211
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
54:27.291 --> 54:27.872
[SPEAKER_05]: What the fuck?
54:27.892 --> 54:28.894
[SPEAKER_05]: Fucking what you want then.
54:28.934 --> 54:29.675
[SPEAKER_05]: What do you want me to do?
54:29.715 --> 54:31.118
[SPEAKER_05]: Why don't I want to what am I doing for you?
54:31.199 --> 54:38.090
[SPEAKER_03]: I, and he would pull out his veal eye and he starts playing the violin, I have a legacy.
54:38.130 --> 54:50.850
[SPEAKER_03]: I have a voice, a talent of a generation, but forces have conspired against me.
54:50.890 --> 54:57.460
[SPEAKER_03]: Forces have kept my voice and my message from the people.
54:57.895 --> 55:21.625
[SPEAKER_03]: horrible forces like a lack of talent i am very talented i am very accomplished you i have heard slings and barbs like yours before they will have no effect on be yeah after you played one der wall and a local bar but i thought there were that was the second on core and third i always close with one der wall i'm a barred now what i need from you
55:21.605 --> 55:28.072
[SPEAKER_03]: is a pathway to this fame and recognition that both I deserve and frankly people deserve.
55:29.153 --> 55:46.853
[SPEAKER_08]: As you say that, the tale of the little imp of Leonard starts to get real backwards as if by an invisible force back towards the corpse Leonard's burnt lips.
55:47.373 --> 55:54.503
[SPEAKER_08]: And slowly, you can see as Leonard kind of like scramble's of trying to understand what is going on.
55:54.523 --> 55:56.986
[SPEAKER_05]: Oh, no, this isn't a good, this feels bad.
55:57.166 --> 55:57.847
[SPEAKER_05]: I don't like this.
55:58.709 --> 56:07.120
[SPEAKER_08]: And with a, with this terrible popping sound, Leonard is sucked back into the mouth of Leonard the corpse.
56:08.652 --> 56:12.757
[SPEAKER_08]: You can see that the charm on the lips starts to expand outwards.
56:13.517 --> 56:19.424
[SPEAKER_08]: The rest of Leonard's face starts to burn and sing away and leaving behind it.
56:20.325 --> 56:26.172
[SPEAKER_08]: You can see one arm comes out and a second arm comes out.
56:26.993 --> 56:36.263
[SPEAKER_08]: And these arms are this dark brown skin with this reddish undertones that look like
56:36.749 --> 56:44.863
[SPEAKER_08]: cool after it's been, after a fire has been burning for quite some time and from it a head pops out.
56:45.524 --> 56:45.805
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my.
56:46.506 --> 56:59.708
[SPEAKER_08]: At first you can see a singular horn like tree branches with multiple different shoots coming out of it and the second where there should be a horn you see a crack instead where the horn has clearly been cut off.
57:00.009 --> 57:01.812
[SPEAKER_03]: That's always a side of a badass.
57:03.209 --> 57:11.784
[SPEAKER_08]: of these horns, you see different like hoops and chains kind of dangling off in beautiful golds, coppers and silvers, all different types of metals.
57:13.366 --> 57:26.048
[SPEAKER_08]: From what used to be Leonard the corpse's head, his face, that is now no longer left in sort of these bits of burnt skin and burnt bone behind, arises.
57:26.629 --> 57:28.592
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, a true devil.
57:28.775 --> 57:33.229
[SPEAKER_08]: not like the imp Leonard that you were talking to before.
57:33.269 --> 57:42.177
[SPEAKER_08]: And from this portal that you have summoned, outstands a very tall or unstable instead.
57:51.573 --> 58:15.859
[SPEAKER_08]: They are wearing a get-up of almost like a black robe that has slits down the side opened up in the front, and they're wearing these very delicate black gloves that have the fingers cut off as well, and you can see as their tail emerges as well that they have the similar kind of like chains and hoops and kind of piercings going along their tail.
58:16.295 --> 58:31.576
[SPEAKER_02]: As this thing draws itself to its full height on the bed, you watch that tail whip out of the ruined remains of Leonard's throat, and just bat your protective circle aside.
58:32.136 --> 58:34.860
[SPEAKER_03]: Like there's a gust of wind at all the soldiers.
58:37.709 --> 58:39.291
[SPEAKER_02]: scatters the tail.
58:40.191 --> 58:46.157
[SPEAKER_02]: The physical object like you have scaled this to the binding of like a devil that was freshly formed.
58:46.738 --> 58:52.403
[SPEAKER_02]: The fact that you found a guy sufficiently scummy enough to come out and imp was kind of impressive.
58:53.204 --> 59:00.191
[SPEAKER_02]: Like you should expect a, I can't remember it's a main error, a mirror for a devils, but like there's a zero-th-level garbage fodder.
59:00.791 --> 59:02.233
[SPEAKER_03]: You got, you got level one.
59:02.273 --> 59:04.034
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the seventh time I've done this.
59:04.074 --> 59:06.737
[SPEAKER_03]: The first six were just gonna sit in a room and nothing happens.
59:06.717 --> 59:11.665
[SPEAKER_02]: So you've calibrated your protections to a certain level of danger, right, which is not this.
59:12.687 --> 59:26.970
[SPEAKER_02]: When this happens, when the gust of wind should take out the candles, but the flames flare higher, the tail sweeps out your protections are battered away, and instead of standing on the far side of this protective layer, you're now standing on the far side of a line of dirt.
59:31.827 --> 59:32.148
[SPEAKER_03]: Great.
59:33.190 --> 59:36.817
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I think I would, well, welcome.
59:37.057 --> 59:49.701
[SPEAKER_03]: As I'm very kind of slowly stepping back to give a little bit of distance between us, I see this has worked so well, the exactly as I had planned, I am in complete control of the situation.
59:49.681 --> 01:00:12.567
[SPEAKER_08]: The devil, in front of you, leans one hand back in the other back as their tail whips this salt circle completely and effectual at this point out of the way and as they do so, they, what you thought was perhaps a keep, billowing out from behind their robes, their dress, their suit, whatever it is that you think that they're wearing.
01:00:14.099 --> 01:00:19.504
[SPEAKER_08]: The cape, so to speak, actually unfurls and reveals through these large black wings.
01:00:20.585 --> 01:00:43.127
[SPEAKER_08]: They stretch out and beat once twice almost like they are trying to dust themselves off before they curl them back into that sort of cape-like shape again, and the devil
01:00:43.630 --> 01:00:45.051
[SPEAKER_08]: In control, are we?
01:00:46.433 --> 01:00:49.756
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely, this is going exactly as planned.
01:00:50.036 --> 01:00:51.778
[SPEAKER_04]: Um, hello, friends.
01:00:52.058 --> 01:00:53.119
[SPEAKER_04]: I cast friends right away.
01:00:53.940 --> 01:00:56.182
[SPEAKER_04]: Friends is a no-save situation, yeah.
01:00:56.523 --> 01:00:58.144
[SPEAKER_02]: Friends is a no-save situation.
01:00:58.164 --> 01:01:00.266
[SPEAKER_07]: I'm gonna say I have advantage on saves.
01:01:01.408 --> 01:01:04.611
[SPEAKER_02]: Orom, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be generous with this.
01:01:05.472 --> 01:01:07.013
[SPEAKER_02]: Friends has a duration of one minute.
01:01:07.033 --> 01:01:08.895
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, up to a minute, yes.
01:01:08.875 --> 01:01:10.659
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm keeping an eye on the recording clock.
01:01:10.739 --> 01:01:16.030
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to give you two minutes or to include some room for your narrations and shit.
01:01:16.712 --> 01:01:19.317
[SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, friends start to now.
01:01:19.838 --> 01:01:22.284
[SPEAKER_03]: I am so pleased you are here, my friend.
01:01:22.444 --> 01:01:25.951
[SPEAKER_03]: I have been seeking you for some time.
01:01:26.272 --> 01:01:29.078
[SPEAKER_03]: This is a fortuitous day for both of us.
01:01:30.425 --> 01:01:41.205
[SPEAKER_08]: for Tudus indeed, and they pull what was there outstretched legs one of them back in towards themselves and they put their arm to rest on their knee and they regard you with those burning eyes again.
01:01:41.225 --> 01:01:47.737
[SPEAKER_08]: And I say, I couldn't help but overhear your conversation with Leonard over there.
01:01:47.797 --> 01:01:50.762
[SPEAKER_08]: And I think you were barking up the wrong tree.
01:01:51.907 --> 01:01:54.549
[SPEAKER_02]: It's worth noting when you glance back to Leonard again.
01:01:54.589 --> 01:02:02.397
[SPEAKER_02]: Decapitated, exploded, closed, shredded, burnt to cinder's, like horrifying wreckage.
01:02:03.077 --> 01:02:12.986
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, clearly he got what was coming, but with you, a far more interesting creature, a far more capable, I'm sure I'm much prefer this.
01:02:13.527 --> 01:02:16.770
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, I know your name, River Frostwind.
01:02:17.410 --> 01:02:19.112
[SPEAKER_03]: I see my reputation pursuits, man.
01:02:19.210 --> 01:02:41.338
[SPEAKER_08]: but you do not know my name, they kind of swing their legs around to lean and closer to use as you had moved farther away from them and they lean out a hand and you can see those gloves are covering not quite scales but kind of a rougher sort of skin texture behind it and they have these sort of like a longer sharpened nails.
01:02:41.378 --> 01:02:48.087
[SPEAKER_08]: They think probably could be extended into claws if they wanted to and they hold it out and they say
01:02:48.067 --> 01:02:49.610
[SPEAKER_08]: My name is Oscar A.
01:02:50.372 --> 01:02:51.314
[SPEAKER_03]: Submit all of my courage.
01:02:52.617 --> 01:02:58.148
[SPEAKER_03]: The very confidently, as confident as I can manage, put my hand forward and shake.
01:02:59.110 --> 01:03:02.397
[SPEAKER_02]: This is actually perfect timing because this is exactly the two minute mark.
01:03:03.338 --> 01:03:16.905
[SPEAKER_02]: The wording of the spell's friends is not just they recognize that you did magic to them and it might bother them, it is explicitly, and they become hostile towards you.
01:03:17.446 --> 01:03:24.520
[SPEAKER_02]: This is the magic equivalent of the day after doing Molly, just like you don't have a choice you're sad today.
01:03:25.664 --> 01:03:26.905
[SPEAKER_02]: I think you reach out.
01:03:27.246 --> 01:03:34.955
[SPEAKER_02]: You have this handshake, and I think there's the split second where you realize maybe the arcane blunder here.
01:03:34.995 --> 01:03:35.776
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
01:03:35.796 --> 01:03:39.120
[SPEAKER_02]: When humna, you don't have to immediately attack.
01:03:39.300 --> 01:03:43.686
[SPEAKER_03]: The last paragraph of this is a creature prone to violence might attack you.
01:03:43.986 --> 01:03:47.470
[SPEAKER_03]: Another creature might seek retribution in other ways.
01:03:47.450 --> 01:03:58.522
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's a second where you shake that hand and it's a very natural shake and then there's just a twinge of two hard squeeze when the magic backlash hits.
01:03:59.304 --> 01:04:01.510
[SPEAKER_08]: I don't think Osura even lets go.
01:04:02.890 --> 01:04:09.039
[SPEAKER_08]: As a spell fades in the middle of that handshake, Osra pauses for a second, like a stutter.
01:04:09.459 --> 01:04:21.456
[SPEAKER_08]: Like that magic is leaving their body, leaving their soul, and then they look at you and their hand titans around yours, and they actually pull you in closer to them.
01:04:21.436 --> 01:04:32.155
[SPEAKER_08]: And that smile that smirk grows wider and wider almost I'm naturally wide, like it shouldn't be able to go that far up their mouth up their skin.
01:04:32.956 --> 01:04:42.172
[SPEAKER_08]: But it does, revealing slightly pointed teeth, as they do, and other sudden, a pathway to fame is when you see, right?
01:04:43.715 --> 01:04:46.279
[SPEAKER_03]: Ah, yes, yeah, absolutely, fame.
01:04:46.934 --> 01:04:49.337
[SPEAKER_08]: I have an offer you simply can't refuse.
01:04:49.397 --> 01:04:51.479
[SPEAKER_03]: Sounds lovely.
01:04:51.539 --> 01:04:54.943
[SPEAKER_08]: Have you heard of Willough?
01:04:54.963 --> 01:05:01.070
[SPEAKER_08]: You must have if you live in this region, but have you heard of the God of justice that rules over these lands?
01:05:01.891 --> 01:05:04.074
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, of course there's a statue from right outside the courthouse.
01:05:04.274 --> 01:05:04.675
[SPEAKER_02]: Next door.
01:05:05.916 --> 01:05:07.878
[SPEAKER_02]: Camera whips around out the window.
01:05:07.918 --> 01:05:09.280
[SPEAKER_02]: You do?
01:05:09.884 --> 01:05:13.350
[SPEAKER_08]: What if I told you that I could give you your legacy?
01:05:13.370 --> 01:05:21.864
[SPEAKER_08]: The thing that you want to leave behind you want everybody to know your name, River Frost wins, and you could help me in the process.
01:05:22.626 --> 01:05:25.471
[SPEAKER_03]: I don't see why this can't be mutually beneficial above the bus.
01:05:25.671 --> 01:05:28.095
[SPEAKER_03]: Of course, plenty of fame to go around.
01:05:28.379 --> 01:05:38.479
[SPEAKER_08]: And still holding your hand, like holding you close, not allowing you to exit sort of this of fairy in another mood perhaps intimate kind of space between the two of you.
01:05:38.519 --> 01:05:51.163
[SPEAKER_08]: You're trapped there as Asura nods and says, I would agree, and I think that the rest of the town would agree if they knew just how corrupt it's caught of justice was.
01:05:51.312 --> 01:06:03.686
[SPEAKER_03]: So a political message, then, well, I mainly do ballads, but it's a sure, yeah, I could sing a Rousing political song or two.
01:06:04.467 --> 01:06:08.812
[SPEAKER_08]: I am offering you the ability to build fire through your music.
01:06:09.512 --> 01:06:18.062
[SPEAKER_08]: Fire can be wielded as a tool, a torch, I can't fire, but also fire can be destructive.
01:06:19.628 --> 01:06:26.215
[SPEAKER_08]: Region across a forest burning every tree, every bush, every thing, and it's path.
01:06:27.817 --> 01:06:31.922
[SPEAKER_08]: Clearing that, which is old and rich to make room for something new.
01:06:32.543 --> 01:06:33.924
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, yes, hiya.
01:06:34.385 --> 01:06:35.266
[SPEAKER_03]: I do need something new.
01:06:35.366 --> 01:06:36.327
[SPEAKER_03]: I need a new parathon.
01:06:36.968 --> 01:06:39.230
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, this sounds like a fantastic play.
01:06:39.771 --> 01:06:41.192
[SPEAKER_08]: You need something new.
01:06:41.212 --> 01:06:42.314
[SPEAKER_08]: But so does this town.
01:06:43.515 --> 01:06:48.741
[SPEAKER_08]: So does everyone in it and you could be the head of that change.
01:06:49.362 --> 01:06:53.788
[SPEAKER_03]: or at least the guy to lead them out of their mediocre lives.
01:06:54.569 --> 01:06:54.890
[SPEAKER_08]: Of course.
01:06:55.751 --> 01:06:56.171
[SPEAKER_08]: Of course.
01:06:57.713 --> 01:06:58.014
[SPEAKER_02]: River?
01:06:59.316 --> 01:07:09.410
[SPEAKER_02]: As you sort of like not and try to like break eye contact with this fucking thing, the flame on the candles is taller than the candle itself.
01:07:10.030 --> 01:07:10.391
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
01:07:11.312 --> 01:07:13.395
[SPEAKER_02]: Every word that is spoken.
01:07:14.624 --> 01:07:16.667
[SPEAKER_02]: It's not even just getting brighter, it's getting taller.
01:07:17.508 --> 01:07:19.310
[SPEAKER_02]: They are pillars of light.
01:07:19.991 --> 01:07:22.114
[SPEAKER_02]: It's too hot in this room.
01:07:28.022 --> 01:07:33.189
[SPEAKER_08]: Do you do anything as you notice the kind of flames flickering or the flames getting taller?
01:07:35.091 --> 01:07:41.880
[SPEAKER_03]: As he sing the flames getting taller, I think he remembers back to when he was younger and he was with his mom.
01:07:43.295 --> 01:07:47.866
[SPEAKER_03]: and they were at a market and there was a fire and he just watches mom just run in.
01:07:53.499 --> 01:07:54.541
[SPEAKER_03]: She was always brave.
01:07:54.641 --> 01:07:57.428
[SPEAKER_03]: She would just run into any situation and just handle.
01:07:57.468 --> 01:08:01.978
[SPEAKER_03]: And he remembers the flames up around her as she's shaping water.
01:08:03.342 --> 01:08:11.733
[SPEAKER_03]: saving people's lives and she taught him a spell if he ever needed it against real evil things.
01:08:12.234 --> 01:08:32.640
[SPEAKER_03]: And so he's like fingering the locket she gave him right with his freehand and just kind of thinking about those lessons in preparation of having to do something but he's so close to what he wants that he's willing to choke back his fear and hang a little longer.
01:08:33.920 --> 01:08:48.062
[SPEAKER_03]: Of course, the people need me, I need to be heard, fire will light the way, what a wonderful plan.
01:08:48.082 --> 01:08:51.647
[SPEAKER_08]: How much magic can I seal within River?
01:08:52.448 --> 01:09:03.505
[SPEAKER_08]: As I am, sort of in this close proximity with you holding your hand, how much of that
01:09:04.733 --> 01:09:13.001
[SPEAKER_03]: He's accomplished, and I'd say that most of it is arcane, but there's a little seed.
01:09:13.482 --> 01:09:18.446
[SPEAKER_03]: There's a little seed of the divine, just sitting right next to my heart.
01:09:21.670 --> 01:09:23.932
[SPEAKER_03]: Or um, what's the highest level slot?
01:09:24.753 --> 01:09:34.302
[SPEAKER_03]: The highest level slot I can cast is I have a single one, two, three, four, five, six, six
01:09:36.425 --> 01:09:59.158
[SPEAKER_08]: Feeling that small bead of divine magic or divine energy inside of your soul, Osirah looks to your chest, and then looks back at your eyes, and releases that hand that was holding you there, and moves it to your heart, just above it, and says,
01:09:59.138 --> 01:10:11.176
[SPEAKER_08]: Now, of course, if you want the knowledge to be able to free yourself and free everyone else in this wretched town, you will need to give me something in return.
01:10:12.537 --> 01:10:20.709
[SPEAKER_08]: I can sense something inside of you a small, something a pearl, almost forming.
01:10:20.729 --> 01:10:23.914
[SPEAKER_08]: I would like to have it.
01:10:25.362 --> 01:10:29.668
[SPEAKER_03]: As you're saying the words, the nursery rhyme that my mom taught me.
01:10:29.989 --> 01:10:32.653
[SPEAKER_03]: That was actually a spell of protection.
01:10:33.113 --> 01:10:36.418
[SPEAKER_03]: Like I can hear it in a sing song, kids' voice.
01:10:36.598 --> 01:10:39.322
[SPEAKER_03]: We can both hear the whispers kind of circling around us.
01:10:39.383 --> 01:10:40.845
[SPEAKER_03]: So I know what you're talking about.
01:10:40.885 --> 01:10:41.826
[SPEAKER_03]: I know what you want.
01:10:42.167 --> 01:10:43.969
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's like my fondest memory of her.
01:10:44.430 --> 01:10:45.992
[SPEAKER_03]: And it was heard her tourist form.
01:10:46.733 --> 01:10:49.277
[SPEAKER_03]: And it's just like, it's the one thing.
01:10:50.287 --> 01:10:53.030
[SPEAKER_03]: It's the one thing he didn't disappoint his mom at.
01:10:53.170 --> 01:10:55.853
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, this is the one thing he's held that he's done right.
01:10:56.353 --> 01:11:03.221
[SPEAKER_03]: The one lie he didn't tell, the one promise he didn't break, and it's this precious little thing.
01:11:03.781 --> 01:11:08.807
[SPEAKER_03]: And so he hesitates and he's like, oh, well, of course.
01:11:08.987 --> 01:11:10.889
[SPEAKER_03]: I have so many gifts I can offer.
01:11:12.731 --> 01:11:19.298
[SPEAKER_03]: Service and splendor and my voice and my song, I have many precious gifts for you.
01:11:20.257 --> 01:11:23.481
[SPEAKER_08]: Those are gifts for the people, not for me.
01:11:25.283 --> 01:11:32.613
[SPEAKER_08]: You must understand that in this world don't have much need for your services.
01:11:33.634 --> 01:11:42.045
[SPEAKER_08]: Even your voice, as much as that will be the spark that phrases everything to the ground and creates a new better.
01:11:42.582 --> 01:11:48.491
[SPEAKER_08]: arguably even just society if you wanted to know what I need.
01:11:49.252 --> 01:11:50.775
[SPEAKER_08]: What would be of use to me?
01:11:50.815 --> 01:11:52.337
[SPEAKER_08]: Is that Pearl?
01:11:52.658 --> 01:11:53.559
[SPEAKER_08]: But don't worry.
01:11:54.661 --> 01:11:57.065
[SPEAKER_08]: It's not like I will leave you empty without it.
01:11:57.285 --> 01:12:08.843
[SPEAKER_08]: I will give you a burning coal and it's dead in that space in your heart with that pearl currently lies.
01:12:11.472 --> 01:12:32.383
[SPEAKER_02]: In your mind, you hear the, the lullaby she used to sing to you and that beautiful memory where you got the song right, because you could never sing it like she could, but you could contribute, you sang the harmony.
01:12:33.511 --> 01:12:43.565
[SPEAKER_02]: You gave that second line to the melody, and the way that it resonated, you couldn't tap into the power that she could, but you could do the same thing, tapping into your own power.
01:12:44.847 --> 01:12:48.873
[SPEAKER_02]: And it was this beautiful little moment of like, your, your her son.
01:12:48.893 --> 01:12:55.502
[SPEAKER_01]: I count to 10, then open up my eyes.
01:13:01.000 --> 01:13:10.409
[SPEAKER_01]: Take that baby homey time and send me off with the words of a lollipop.
01:13:10.429 --> 01:13:15.534
[SPEAKER_02]: She can pass something onto you but it's going to be yours, it's going to be a little different but it'll also be the same.
01:13:17.375 --> 01:13:29.607
[SPEAKER_02]: And you can hear that melody line go from major to minor thirds.
01:13:30.937 --> 01:13:33.020
[SPEAKER_03]: It's just going to be different from that one.
01:13:35.783 --> 01:13:38.427
[SPEAKER_03]: So as he thinks about it, he's come so far.
01:13:38.787 --> 01:13:40.129
[SPEAKER_03]: This is the first time this has worked.
01:13:40.429 --> 01:13:43.433
[SPEAKER_03]: I've probably never find another one again getting older.
01:13:43.473 --> 01:13:45.596
[SPEAKER_03]: It's harder to travel.
01:13:46.317 --> 01:13:52.545
[SPEAKER_03]: There's lessening returns on everything I do to try and make myself famous and get my art and my music out there.
01:13:53.326 --> 01:13:57.872
[SPEAKER_03]: And as he closes his eyes, he starts to quietly sing.
01:13:57.852 --> 01:14:07.525
[SPEAKER_01]: Count to ten, then open up my eyes If you're gone, I'll take it as a sign
01:14:08.382 --> 01:14:36.718
[SPEAKER_03]: starts to sing eventually you can hear his mother's voice join him and the two melodies circle about as these spirit guardians that I was taught how to summon like fly out and like as the flames are rising higher the spirit guardians kind of swirl into the heat raised by the currents so I'm casting the magic but it's not harming this devil it's not protecting me because I'm
01:14:43.330 --> 01:14:45.774
[SPEAKER_03]: Or I don't want you to roll me just to charisma safe.
01:14:47.216 --> 01:14:48.859
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, well those are my good ones.
01:14:50.461 --> 01:14:50.561
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
01:14:50.581 --> 01:14:52.825
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's going to be a natural 20.
01:14:52.845 --> 01:14:53.626
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my god.
01:14:53.646 --> 01:14:54.788
[SPEAKER_03]: 8 is 28.
01:14:55.889 --> 01:14:57.131
[SPEAKER_08]: Oh my god.
01:14:58.133 --> 01:14:59.655
[SPEAKER_08]: Sometimes the dice tells story.
01:15:00.817 --> 01:15:04.042
[SPEAKER_02]: These faceless guardians swirl.
01:15:04.923 --> 01:15:07.988
[SPEAKER_02]: Two, then three, then four dozens.
01:15:08.525 --> 01:15:17.654
[SPEAKER_02]: There's almost a moment of panic, as you watch, truly divine warriors flood towards you.
01:15:18.715 --> 01:15:36.372
[SPEAKER_02]: Not true panic, just like a half second of has this gone wrong, and you start to feel that light sink into you, and River watches that gift, dissolve away, given up willingly.
01:15:36.740 --> 01:15:43.249
[SPEAKER_00]: Send me off, with the words of a lullaby.
01:15:43.269 --> 01:15:44.551
[SPEAKER_02]: And one figure breaks off.
01:15:45.612 --> 01:15:50.199
[SPEAKER_02]: As it comes back, the hood falls back, and you watch your mother.
01:15:51.861 --> 01:15:56.848
[SPEAKER_02]: Sad, little disappointed, there is no reproach, right?
01:15:57.309 --> 01:15:59.572
[SPEAKER_02]: This is nothing against you.
01:15:59.612 --> 01:16:02.376
[SPEAKER_02]: This is...
01:16:02.727 --> 01:16:06.835
[SPEAKER_02]: I did my best, you have to make of life what you can.
01:16:06.875 --> 01:16:11.944
[SPEAKER_02]: And you feel this gentle sort of kiss on the forehead.
01:16:14.669 --> 01:16:21.201
[SPEAKER_02]: As that guardian is not absorbed, but simply feels like it dissolves.
01:16:22.123 --> 01:16:24.988
[SPEAKER_03]: One tear as I feel it fade away.
01:16:25.762 --> 01:16:46.285
[SPEAKER_08]: Azeroth hand reaches out, and as if they are scooping each individual spirit guardian into their hand, they take these little beads, these little spirits, and form sort of a mass of them in their hand, and they close it.
01:16:46.265 --> 01:17:00.442
[SPEAKER_08]: and the light that was forming from the spirit guardians that sort of divine energy radiating out warm, comforting, familiar to you, something that you've had within you this whole time disappears.
01:17:01.183 --> 01:17:09.133
[SPEAKER_08]: And when Osura opens their hand up again in its place is, as they said, a small burning
01:17:13.417 --> 01:17:16.765
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, you did the Superman thing, but like, in reverse, you turned the diamond into coal.
01:17:19.211 --> 01:17:25.305
[SPEAKER_08]: And that coal has smoldering embers sort of on half of its side.
01:17:25.345 --> 01:17:31.780
[SPEAKER_08]: It is still sort of like burning through and you get the sense that it will burn theoretically for eternity.
01:17:34.865 --> 01:17:42.835
[SPEAKER_08]: And they walk closer to you and where you should feel the warmth of a fire radiating out from their hand.
01:17:42.875 --> 01:17:50.123
[SPEAKER_08]: You don't feel anything is almost endothermic in that it makes you feel colder rather than warmer.
01:17:50.163 --> 01:17:55.910
[SPEAKER_08]: And they reach their hand out to you, offering it back to you, just like they said that they would.
01:17:56.511 --> 01:17:57.352
[SPEAKER_03]: I study myself.
01:17:58.173 --> 01:18:02.458
[SPEAKER_03]: I prepare for my glory, and I reach out and take the call.
01:18:04.075 --> 01:18:26.758
[SPEAKER_02]: You feel for the last time, the flare of warmth, and the beauty of that memory, as that song that you sang protects you from the evil, once and never again.
01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:41.552
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's why the next time this character would gain a level, it would just be as a warlock as opposed to you being fully cursed into servitude for the record.
01:18:42.232 --> 01:18:43.854
[SPEAKER_02]: Right, it's the only thing that saved me there.
01:18:44.374 --> 01:18:47.678
[SPEAKER_02]: That not 20, you know, serves your free will.
01:18:49.059 --> 01:18:57.707
[SPEAKER_08]: And you trained that song, that nursery rhyme, that spelled that protection, that love for knowledge.
01:18:58.430 --> 01:19:22.058
[SPEAKER_08]: You see, in your mind's eye, in your soul, in your heart of hearts, you see a montage flitting impossibly quickly across your brain and across your eyes, filling you with the understanding, a deep, deep understanding of the machinations of the God of justice in this town that no mortal could possibly know.
01:19:22.118 --> 01:19:25.062
[SPEAKER_08]: You see, and you hear,
01:19:25.447 --> 01:19:40.705
[SPEAKER_08]: Plans and plots you see the gods ascension you see how it was born how it was made What it has done in order to maintain its rule and its power and its place within the pantheon and you realize that
01:19:41.849 --> 01:19:57.985
[SPEAKER_08]: There are some terrible, cruel, unjust things that this God has had to do to not only get to the place that he is at, but to remain in it, holding that power firmly.
01:20:00.057 --> 01:20:01.539
[SPEAKER_08]: coveting it, almost.
01:20:02.721 --> 01:20:13.258
[SPEAKER_08]: And you can see exactly which threads you need to pull on to unravel the rule, the hold that this God has on this town and its people.
01:20:13.939 --> 01:20:17.785
[SPEAKER_08]: You have within your grasp, you feel it, the gravity of it.
01:20:18.246 --> 01:20:26.098
[SPEAKER_08]: You have within your grasp the exact things that you need to start a forest fire.
01:20:27.817 --> 01:20:29.179
[SPEAKER_03]: as I'm holding your hand.
01:20:29.880 --> 01:20:38.955
[SPEAKER_03]: In my head, I could hear my mother's voice one last time, and I can feel her pushing me towards casting banishment.
01:20:39.115 --> 01:20:40.177
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I've got you right here.
01:20:40.397 --> 01:20:44.183
[SPEAKER_03]: There's just that, like, there's that last little pain, like, just banishment banishment now.
01:20:44.644 --> 01:20:45.285
[SPEAKER_03]: But,
01:20:46.261 --> 01:21:02.547
[SPEAKER_03]: showed me injustice beneath a layer of assumed accepted justice and gosh darn it, I'm a musician who wants to change things and if it means I have to dip my hand in a held order to do that, he's going to do it.
01:21:02.788 --> 01:21:06.193
[SPEAKER_03]: So he pushes that fear aside and he shakes your head back.
01:21:06.899 --> 01:21:28.204
[SPEAKER_08]: And the back of your head is you, you know as well that what Osirah said was right, what you're going to do potentially with this information is burn everything down to create room for something new, but that room for something new means that, well, something has to replace it, something has to grow from it, build from it.
01:21:28.264 --> 01:21:33.430
[SPEAKER_08]: And you can just see, and you wonder perhaps.
01:21:34.726 --> 01:21:36.708
[SPEAKER_08]: What is Osirah's role and all of this?
01:21:36.808 --> 01:21:42.874
[SPEAKER_08]: What is it that they hope to gain builds create in the wake of this destruction?
01:21:42.894 --> 01:21:48.440
[SPEAKER_03]: And I would turn to them in that moment like of this little vision I'm able to see.
01:21:48.480 --> 01:22:00.852
[SPEAKER_03]: Once we do clear this land out, once we do write these wrongs, once we do reduce these temples of lies to ash, what do we build?
01:22:01.962 --> 01:22:06.367
[SPEAKER_08]: This is simply one step, the first step, an important step.
01:22:07.208 --> 01:22:14.557
[SPEAKER_08]: In writing the wrongs, the injustices that have been done to me, and people like me, this God of justice, well.
01:22:15.959 --> 01:22:27.092
[SPEAKER_08]: I hope you'll excuse that it is a little personal, as well as, come you know, for the welfare of your people as well, but for me,
01:22:28.439 --> 01:22:44.717
[SPEAKER_08]: dismantling this hierarchy, toppling this throne is important in order to show them that what they did to me, banishing me, casting me out, isolating me.
01:22:44.777 --> 01:22:49.642
[SPEAKER_08]: Well, they can't do that for very long.
01:22:51.304 --> 01:22:56.910
[SPEAKER_08]: So what we build afterwards is, as well, however we want.
01:22:57.413 --> 01:22:59.377
[SPEAKER_08]: Whatever we feel is right.
01:23:01.220 --> 01:23:04.065
[SPEAKER_03]: And he would nod, accepting this.
01:23:04.746 --> 01:23:10.958
[SPEAKER_03]: And he would pull his violin back to his chin and place his bow upon it and look to you.
01:23:11.278 --> 01:23:16.468
[SPEAKER_03]: And there's like this, like as the camera pans around us, it pans past your back.
01:23:16.448 --> 01:23:45.021
[SPEAKER_03]: and then it's me as a child in front of my mother and then it's back to you and like the scene keeps switching between now and then with her teaching me the song and now with me looking to you the bow raised waiting for you to start singing so I can learn the new song
01:23:45.575 --> 01:24:14.097
[SPEAKER_03]: I think he glances out the window one last time, and like maybe the reflection of his mother is in that pain, just one little last hand up to the wall, and he would just close his eyes and nod and start playing.
01:24:14.279 --> 01:24:17.910
[SPEAKER_08]: and as you start playing, Osuro begins to sing.
01:24:18.818 --> 01:24:33.699
[SPEAKER_02]: The camera does a single, final cycle, and the cloak over the wings settles in, and as the camera circles one last time this time a little further back, we can see that it is not a dark cloak.
01:24:34.681 --> 01:24:47.239
[SPEAKER_02]: It is a burnt cloak, and in that black you can just barely see the outline where color has been sort of washed over by ash, the outline of a pair of scales.
01:25:12.110 --> 01:25:14.593
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you for joining us for Devils.
01:25:15.314 --> 01:25:21.403
[SPEAKER_02]: If any of the ideas we've discussed on the show spark some of your own, tell us about it on Twitter at KEM Podcast.
01:25:21.423 --> 01:25:25.668
[SPEAKER_02]: You'll find me at DJ Malenfant and Iran at Iran-Vardian.
01:25:26.329 --> 01:25:37.965
[SPEAKER_03]: For ad free episodes, early releases bonus episodes, print ready maps, our new audio DMs notes and my character sheets for each encounter head over to patreon.com slash dead ghost pro.
01:25:38.097 --> 01:25:42.074
[SPEAKER_02]: Our intro theme and many of the sound effects you hear in the show were created by Battle Barts.
01:25:45.329 --> 01:25:47.719
[SPEAKER_02]: Check them out at BattleBarts.com.
01:25:48.037 --> 01:25:51.120
[SPEAKER_03]: This episode was produced by Iran, Vartian, and Dylan Mollenfonte.
01:25:51.641 --> 01:25:52.461
[SPEAKER_03]: I also did the editing.
01:25:52.962 --> 01:25:54.624
[SPEAKER_03]: We were joined by Hamneshide.
01:25:55.024 --> 01:26:00.970
[SPEAKER_03]: You can find Hamneshide on Blue Sky at LilithTTRPG.Besky.Social.
01:26:01.410 --> 01:26:09.458
[SPEAKER_03]: And if you are anything like me and all that information just fell right out of your head, you'll find everything you need at Kill Every Monster.com.
01:26:10.199 --> 01:26:15.124
[SPEAKER_03]: And we'll see you next time for Kill Every Monster.