Headphones vs. Studio Monitors: Which Mixes Better?

WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside the Recording Studio.
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I am Jody Whitesides and with me as always is Mr. Chris Hellstrom.
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How are you today, Chris?
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Doing very well Jody. I'm doing very well. How about yourself?
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Sweet. I'm doing pretty good too. I'm having a very nice mellow morning as it is.
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Nice are you sound kind of energetic there and I see you sipping on some tea so you're ready to go here you're getting pumped up
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And you?
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Pumped. Pumped up. I think part of it is that I'm starting to get sleep again, and sleep
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is a good thing. Yes. I'm finding I'm starting more new songs and finishing old ones. Working
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Yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah, you finding yourself making better
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judgments when you're mixing or doing anything with a little bit extra sleep.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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So I was going to say follow up question.
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Are you finishing said new songs as well?
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on it. Oh, I do. What about you? We're talking about headphones versus monitors when it comes
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Working on it.
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All right.
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Good.
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But don't just start new ideas.
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You know all about that, right?
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Yeah.
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So what are we talking about today, Jody?
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to mixing gigantic Grand Canyon.
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That's a pretty big subject.
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isn't it? Because all the tools that we have, yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, I got nothing to reply
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to that. But yeah, I mean, it's, you know, there's so many tools today out in available
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for us, and it can be a little bit of a jungle. One of the things that I think more and more
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people finding themselves doing these days is perhaps working primarily on headphones.
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And there are pros and cons, I guess, that come out of that, right?
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But do you have, I mean, I know your preference, but what's your thought of the sort of like
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Sure.
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Mm-hmm.
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pros and cons of, you know, mixing on headphones?
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Pros.
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You can do it anywhere.
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Yeah, right?
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Con.
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You can do it anywhere.
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Why is that a con?
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That's a...
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It's not necessarily con.
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But the idea is, is that maybe I go out to the middle of nowhere,
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and I'm suddenly in nature,
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and nature takes over in nature.
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in terms of my attention span.
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So my mix is not focused on my mind.
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That sounds a little bit more like it.
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It's more like, hey, I'm outside in nature.
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Maybe I go do something else.
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That would be a con.
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Reality is,
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Well, that's more of a personal problem.
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That's less of a headphone problem, isn't it?
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yes, it is.
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It is a personal problem.
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Now, I would look at it from the standpoint
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that with headphones, there is a different way
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that you're hearing the mix than it is
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if you're in a room with a set of monitors.
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That's the big difference.
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And the pro is with headphones, you're getting a very intimate look at your mix or very intimate
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listen to your mix as compared to mixing through monitors.
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However, that being said, I don't use one source in terms of mixing.
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Yeah. Yeah. But I think if I put words in your mouth here, possibly, but I think you're
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That's just the experience of years of saying, Hey, don't do it just with one source.
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going to echo this, but you do primarily your work on your studio monitors and perhaps doing
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Yes.
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Yes.
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some referencing on your, your headphones type of thing. Is that generally your workflow?
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I would say you probably do 90% of your heavy lifting with your studio monitors. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
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Yeah, I think. Oh, absolutely.
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Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. To go back to the pros and cons there, I do think the same thing can
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sort of go both ways. I mean, the practicality, if you are somebody that is on the move a lot,
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when you travel and you have to deliver a mix,
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well then you don't really have a choice, right?
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You're working on headphones.
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True.
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But the pros and cons that I think are beholden
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to both monitors and your headphones is
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they can be hyped.
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And when I say can be, I mean most of them are, right?
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No, they all are. Everything has a hype of some sort. There's no getting around that.
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No matter the, yeah, before they claimed, I,
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but they always, oh, these are, these are flat
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and these are, no, they're not.
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Some might be, but the vast majority of things that are out there are not.
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And I remember listening to a certain sort of speakers that were really popular
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about 15 years ago.
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Let's say that there was a somewhat of a budget speaker of a major brand.
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And I think you might, I don't want to mention who they are because that's
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Uh-huh.
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Uh-huh.
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shitty, but they, they became really popular because they were, oh man, they're
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cheap and they sound really, really good. Yeah, but they
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were really, really hyped. Right? So it's oh, listen to all
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Uh-huh.
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that bottom end or listen to that clear top end and they were
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really hyped. The same thing obviously goes for headphones.
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Right? You think, Oh, my God, I can hear everything. Well, it
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might be, but it also that they're really hyped. So that's a
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con that goes both ways. You know, it's handy to go back and
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Sure.
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forth, but we'll go into a little bit more detail down the
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line here. It's a good reference tool to have a decent set of
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headphones if you're doing the majority of your stuff on on studio
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monitors. Maybe we should start with headphones then and talk about some
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All right.
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pros and cons there. The first one that I tend to think of, I'll just kick this
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off, is the biggest pro for me is thinking that it takes the room out of
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it.
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it. Most of us, you know, listening to this podcast as well, I'm assuming, are
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So that can mean that you're sitting in a potentially really,
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really shitty room. And if you're dealing with a headphone
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situation, that takes that out of the equation, right? So that's
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Sure.
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a big pro right off the bat for me. You've already mentioned
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like mixing on the go, if you're somebody that's traveling
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Yes.
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whether that is on your subway or you're flying, whatever it is
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Or in the middle of nowhere.
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that that in the middle of nowhere, that's, you know,
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awesome. That's another one. What other things can you think of maybe something more negative
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with headphones? Yeah. Right.
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Well, one thing that changes drastically between studio monitors and headphones is the stereo
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field becomes well two entirely different things.
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It's essentially what it is because you don't have the same stereo reference when you have
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headphones on your ears compared to when you're listening to something out of a set of speakers.
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Right. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. That's something that obviously we have to be aware of. And
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So that's a huge difference between headphones and monitors.
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I think we can look at that as if we're looking for real definition where we're placing something
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in the stereo field. It can perhaps help to reference that with headphones, but be aware
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that that is something that absolutely changes. I've done that before, before I was really aware
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of that. When you just, you know, you've been working on a mix in your headphones, then you
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listen to it somewhere else. It's like, what the hell just happened? You know. So no, but we all ask
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Not a good question to be asking yourself a lot.
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ourselves that a lot in the beginning, don't we? Because it's like, wow, I thought I did a decent
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job with this. And so no, no, you didn't go go back and work on it more. Yeah, exactly. But with
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Try again.
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with a stereo field thing there is something that we can implement is sort of
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binaural panning and binaural effects where you can get that now where it's like
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spinning around in your headspace and you get that very much only in in
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headphones, at least as far as I'm concerned, or aware, I should say.
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Ychydig.
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Yeah. Obviously, again, we're dependent on the quality of the headphones, right?
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Yeah, there's another effect that kind of relates to the binaural thing, and it has
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Yeah.
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to do with when you take a signal that is mono, you invert the phase and double it so
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Mm-hmm.
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you have one that's in your normal recorded state, then you have another track of it in
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inverted space and then you delay one or two of them by X amount of samples or milliseconds
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and then pan them off. In speakers, studio monitors, you'll hear that sound essentially
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Yeah.
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jump out of the speakers. We've done it. I've done it more than once, but yes. And in headphones,
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Yeah, we tried that one time. I think we did on a track that you and I did together. I think we, yeah.
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it's an entirely different concept of how that works. But out of actual speaker speakers,
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you're sitting in a prime location, it really makes that part stick out. And it's amazing
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how that works. Yes. Right. But when you do actually set it with an inverted phase and
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Yeah. And it's because the face cancellation thing that just gets offset, right? Because of the
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delay that you're doing. So it doesn't be interesting stuff. Yeah, if you don't have that delay, you're
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just face counseling, basically. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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you're setting the panning and then delaying one of the signals, it gives you the effect
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of where that is sitting outside in a 3D space kind of thing.
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But the other thing too that affects the quality of what you're hearing in headphones is whether
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or not you have open back or closed back headphones.
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That makes a substantial difference.
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Yep. Absolutely.
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So with open back headphones, even though you're not listening to your room, you're
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still getting room vibe out of your hearing, which is more of a lie to me than when you
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have close-back headphones on.
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Yeah, I'm not that read up on technically what actually happens with the room sound
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and all that, but my experience is that you end up losing from a listening perspective,
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you end up losing more low end, because that's what tends to escape right from the open back
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Sure.
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more than than high end. Do you have a preference? Do you like open back or close back? Yeah. Yeah.
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I prefer close-back. That's just me. I'm not a real fan of the open-back setup,
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but some people are.
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Yeah, no, I'm the same way. I had a pair of it's like the AKGs would like the 240s or whatever.
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And I ended up getting rid of them. I just didn't like him. It was it was now it was hard for me to
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(laughs)
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get used to him even with correcting software and stuff like that. We'll talk about later.
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but yeah, I had a hard time getting used to it.
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Right.
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Well, I tell you one thing right now is I'm setting with a pair of headphones,
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So...
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And it's weird to call them a pair because it's a single item with two speakers on it
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Mm-hmm.
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[laughs]
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So why it's called a pair of headphones or a pair of pants
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Yeah.
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It's the same as a pair of scissors, right?
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So...
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Right, yeah.
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Right.
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So the idea here that I'm going after by saying what I was about to say is I'm wearing a pair of headphones
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That I've had for an extremely long period of time
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They don't make them anymore and I know them so well that if
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Yeah.
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Something goes wrong with them. It's gonna be a real drag to have to replace them
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because they sound so great.
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and
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But is that do they really sound so great or is it just that you know them so well do you think both?
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Both.
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Yeah, I think it's both. They sound really damn good and
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Yeah, so
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I've had them for a really long time. The one thing that I like about them and these just to spit it out there,
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they are the Sennheiser HD250 Mark II, I guess they're called. Compared to
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one set of my monitor speakers, the Genilex,
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They're not really all that close so they have a very separate range for them
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Yeah
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But to another set of monitor speakers that I have which is the KRK v4 series 2 the most recent release of the v4s
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They are
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eerily similar in terms of like if I play something through the v4s and
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and
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Then I play something through the 250 HD 2s. I'm not noticing a substantial difference
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Yeah, so I know that these as studio headphone monitors. They're they're actually quite good in that regard.
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That's actually really good.
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Well, you better treat them kindly then. Yeah.
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Oh, I do. I mean, I've been through two headphone cables since I've originally owned these and I had to replace the foam on them once.
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Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. With some...
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But even now if the foam goes away, I don't think I can get new foam things for them.
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Really? Huh. Well...
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Yeah, they don't make any of these anymore, and I'm sure they're out of parts.
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Well, be...
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to them, be kind to them. Yeah, well, good for you. All right.
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I am very what about you I mean do you have a set of headphones that you have
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stuck with now that you figured out there was that one kind that you didn't
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Yeah. The first pair of headphones that are bought that were
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like
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like, semi decent, there is the Sony was the 7506 is whatever
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mm-hmm
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they're called, MDR is 7506, I think. And those are the ones I
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still use today. I've had these for like 20 years plus, you
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know, and they are, I know that they are very hyped. And it was
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hmm
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shocking when I started using Sonarworks, I just to see the
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[laughs]
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Uh-huh.
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profile of them. It's like, Wow, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's
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Do they have a profile of those?
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That's great.
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That's all I can say about it right now, because we're going to talk about it more later.
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it was shocking. Like, and it is to a point now where I go back
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and forth between my studio monitors, and I go reference
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something in my headphones.
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And if I don't remember to switch the profile in Sonarworks,
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it is jarring to listen to.
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(laughs)
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It's like, oh my God, you know.
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Yeah, it's very, very interesting.
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The event of Sonarworks, when I saw that first time,
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I think it was a NAMM, I can't remember the year it was,
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but you and I were there and somebody else.
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And it was, yeah, just seeing all the profiles.
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When I just see that, the monitor these,
00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:11.400
They've checked them and scoped them out and you see like, yeah, they're supposed to be so good.
00:14:11.500 --> 00:14:16.960
Yeah, they sound really, really good because there's like a 5 dB boost at 10k, you know?
00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:22.500
It's like, so you may not make the best mixed decisions when it comes to those.
00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:18.760
I
00:14:22.280 --> 00:14:23.140
Sure
00:14:22.660 --> 00:14:24.480
But like you said, we'll go back into those.
00:14:24.740 --> 00:14:31.280
But yeah, I've thought about switching to a different set and maybe somebody was listening
00:14:31.400 --> 00:14:35.520
and clue me in what way you guys are using and maybe I'll try something else just to kind of mix
00:14:35.520 --> 00:14:54.440
it up a little bit. But monitors, as in speakers that are sitting in your studio, wherever
00:14:36.620 --> 00:14:39.020
Not a bad idea, not a bad idea.
00:14:39.280 --> 00:14:41.920
With that, we're gonna take a word from our sponsors.
00:14:43.640 --> 00:14:47.240
And now we're gonna move on to Yeehaw.
00:14:50.520 --> 00:14:52.620
Or in your recording and mixing room,
00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:55.580
if it's your mix room, wherever you're at.
00:14:54.760 --> 00:14:59.980
you're doing your work, they're probably sitting in front of you at somewhat of like maybe a
00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:07.160
45 degree angle, hopefully creating that nice little triangle between your head and the speakers.
00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:04.440
Triangle.
00:15:08.210 --> 00:15:10.140
You mentioned what you are using.
00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:14.780
You are using your KRK Mark II, what is they?
00:15:14.260 --> 00:15:18.020
Well, they're the V4 by KRK, and I think it's the series two,
00:15:14.780 --> 00:15:16.500
The Force V4.
00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:21.380
because it's the recent re-release from a couple of years ago.
00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:19.560
Yeah.
00:15:21.880 --> 00:15:25.640
There was a fair bit of upgrading going on in those because I know you were, when you
00:15:25.640 --> 00:15:30.760
first heard them, you were like, I got to have these. Right? Yeah.
00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:35.760
Yes, so it's a friend of mine by the name of Rich Rankin who was working at KRK at
00:15:35.760 --> 00:15:41.040
the time or rather I guess Gibson who owns KRK or if they still own KRK I'm not sure.
00:15:42.260 --> 00:15:48.320
He was telling me that yeah we're going to do an update to the V4s and eventually when
00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:51.880
they finally had them, he pulled me aside and said, Hey, you got to come check these
00:15:52.000 --> 00:16:00.200
out. And he had the KRK V fours sitting right next to a set of the Genelec 1029 A's and
00:16:00.180 --> 00:16:02.820
Oh, yeah.
00:16:00.340 --> 00:16:07.660
had the A/B switch and allowed me to plug in music that I know extremely well. I'd listen
00:16:07.760 --> 00:16:11.140
to it in the Genelec's and then be like, Oh, okay, this sounds like it's supposed to sound.
00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:16.740
Then I'd flip the switch and listen to the KRK V fours and be like, Oh my God, it's like
00:16:16.740 --> 00:16:18.420
Like somebody just pulled the wool out of my ears.
00:16:18.779 --> 00:16:20.720
Wow, yeah.
00:16:19.580 --> 00:16:20.020
(laughing)
00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:22.020
It was a night and day difference.
00:16:22.460 --> 00:16:24.280
So I immediately was like, okay, Rich,
00:16:24.660 --> 00:16:25.660
where do I give you the money?
00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:30.120
Yeah, I can't wait.
00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:27.380
(laughing)
00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:35.320
I haven't been in your studio since you moved, but I would love to hear those and see what
00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:35.780
they are.
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:36.440
They're awesome.
00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:41.880
You mentioned the Genilex, the old trusty Genilex right now, the 1029As.
00:16:41.800 --> 00:16:42.240
Yes.
00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:43.480
Again, they don't make these anymore.
00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:46.540
And I, that's what I use.
00:16:45.420 --> 00:16:47.280
I got the last logic board.
00:16:47.580 --> 00:17:00.600
Oh yeah, because you have to have your service. Excuse me. Right. Wow. All right. Well, good
00:16:49.060 --> 00:16:50.560
I had one of my logic boards
00:16:50.620 --> 00:16:52.120
and one of my GenLX went out
00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:55.380
and I ordered the last available logic board.
00:16:55.560 --> 00:16:56.600
Now unless they've made more,
00:16:56.880 --> 00:16:58.620
I am the one guy that got the last one.
00:17:00.660 --> 00:17:06.860
for you. So because that's the monitor I use. And I remember being turned on to these. This
00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:01.800
(laughs)
00:17:06.860 --> 00:17:12.319
was when you had your LA studio. And I can't remember what I was using at the time, but
00:17:08.580 --> 00:17:09.060
Yes.
00:17:12.319 --> 00:17:20.839
I went to your place and I listened to Nine Inch Nails track off of the Fragile, one of
00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:19.880
Uh-huh.
00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:21.900
the instrumental pieces.
00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:29.780
And I remember this vividly, like there's a song and it has like a really low cello
00:17:30.380 --> 00:17:32.400
in the song, just like these droney kind of things.
00:17:32.450 --> 00:17:38.760
And I'm like, oh my God, I can hear the bowing of the cello, you know, that was so revealing.
00:17:37.700 --> 00:17:38.260
[laughs]
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:40.900
I'm like, I gotta have these.
00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:43.240
And I have been using them ever since.
00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:44.640
I do like the Genelecs.
00:17:44.840 --> 00:17:47.480
I know some people don't like them for whatever reason.
00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.120
I don't know, but I'm a big fan.
00:17:49.360 --> 00:17:52.280
And yeah, that's what I'm using at this point.
00:17:52.100 --> 00:17:57.740
Alright, so now that we're over our fanboying of the type of monitor speakers that we actually use,
00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:56.880
(laughs)
00:17:57.280 --> 00:17:58.920
Right, right.
00:17:58.280 --> 00:18:03.360
what is one particular difference that you're getting from the monitors that you're not really getting from the headphones?
00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:06.260
Well, again, it's the stereo field, right?
00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:06.240
Mm-hmm
00:18:06.480 --> 00:18:10.280
you hear what it sounds like in an actual room.
00:18:10.879 --> 00:18:12.900
Which means you're getting a true room sound
00:18:13.560 --> 00:18:15.080
Right, for better or worse,
00:18:15.460 --> 00:18:17.720
because again, we talked about,
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:21.520
not every room is created equal, right?
00:18:21.539 --> 00:18:22.340
True that
00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:25.920
So it depends on how well your room is treated.
00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:26.560
Yes
00:18:26.320 --> 00:18:27.540
That was easy for me to say,
00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:30.460
to get the most out of your monitors, right?
00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:35.159
You could buy and have the best monitors in the world
00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:37.660
that you've read that everybody uses,
00:18:38.320 --> 00:18:41.740
but they will only be as good as your room is
00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:42.360
Yes.
00:18:42.280 --> 00:18:43.300
to a certain degree.
00:18:42.360 --> 00:18:42.560
Yes.
00:18:43.560 --> 00:18:45.500
And that can be a tough pill to swallow
00:18:45.840 --> 00:18:48.900
because it is very unsexy, I think,
00:18:49.040 --> 00:18:52.620
to put down a lot of money on improving, you know,
00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:54.600
with baffles and base traps
00:18:54.690 --> 00:18:55.900
and all this kind of stuff in your room.
00:18:55.960 --> 00:18:57.460
It's not fun, right?
00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:58.180
[laughter]
00:18:58.420 --> 00:19:01.740
So it's like, oh, I just want to buy cool monitors
00:19:01.900 --> 00:19:04.359
and I have a big, beautiful white cone
00:19:04.360 --> 00:19:11.460
that all the other, you know, hits were mixed on right, but it's not as simple as that, unfortunately.
00:19:06.620 --> 00:19:08.020
Sure.
00:19:09.520 --> 00:19:11.360
No, it's not.
00:19:12.060 --> 00:19:17.460
I believe I've enlisted your help. I know I've enlisted the help of others for various studio
00:19:17.760 --> 00:19:23.320
setups that I have done where it's like, "Hey, can you go hold a mirror on the wall for me so I can
00:19:19.100 --> 00:19:19.660
Yeah.
00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:23.920
Yeah the old mirror test.
00:19:23.620 --> 00:19:30.100
set up my baffling and everything so that it's going to properly dampen and create the proper
00:19:25.980 --> 00:19:26.540
Yeah.
00:19:30.140 --> 00:19:42.100
room sound and tuning in this room. So I've done that more than once. I did. I did get
00:19:32.740 --> 00:19:37.000
Yeah, no, that was fun. I remember that. Yeah. And actually, you got a bit of a write up
00:19:37.100 --> 00:19:44.320
in SOS for that, right? Because that was one of those room rescue things. Yeah. See, you're
00:19:42.140 --> 00:19:46.980
right up in sound on sound. Not really, but let's move on.
00:19:44.340 --> 00:19:51.620
famous. Oh, no, but that the treatment is, it's a little bit beyond the episode of this
00:19:52.120 --> 00:19:57.639
podcast. We maybe will do something out that we've had some requests for that. So maybe
00:19:57.640 --> 00:19:59.020
We will talk about that in a future episode.
00:19:59.080 --> 00:20:02.180
But you are obviously dependent on your room.
00:20:02.340 --> 00:20:05.380
And there are things that we can do to better ourselves,
00:20:06.120 --> 00:20:07.420
to get the most out of our monitors.
00:20:07.600 --> 00:20:11.020
There's another problem or issue that you might want to think
00:20:11.120 --> 00:20:14.160
about when you're choosing your monitors as well.
00:20:14.820 --> 00:20:18.680
And that is the size of your room, right?
00:20:17.540 --> 00:20:17.700
Yes.
00:20:19.140 --> 00:20:22.440
It can be very tempting to get the biggest and the best.
00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.640
And you mentioned like your K or K fours, right?
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:26.200
Yes.
00:20:26.800 --> 00:20:32.120
They're not the biggest monitors in neither mind, like I said, the 1029s, but I sit in
00:20:28.360 --> 00:20:29.480
No.
00:20:32.180 --> 00:20:34.000
a relatively small space.
00:20:33.360 --> 00:20:34.600
Yes.
00:20:35.650 --> 00:20:38.160
So having a, yeah.
00:20:36.340 --> 00:20:41.580
See, you mentioning that, I initially wanted to get the V8s.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:42.120
Yeah.
00:20:42.340 --> 00:20:49.880
which is the next size up. You want to be pounded in the head with sound in the chest
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:54.960
and in the groin everywhere. You want to feel it. However, for the room that I'm
00:20:55.000 --> 00:21:01.360
currently in, that did not make any sense whatsoever. The good thing though is that
00:21:01.360 --> 00:21:08.419
I do have these paired with the KRK sub that goes with them and in doing that
00:21:08.420 --> 00:21:14.740
this sub actually works with the 8s or the 4s. If I go to the 8s, I will still be
00:21:11.980 --> 00:21:12.100
and
00:21:12.860 --> 00:21:20.520
So you have more than likely probably just adjusted the crossover I would guess.
00:21:14.840 --> 00:21:23.440
able to use the same sub. Yeah, the crossover would be adjusted. The volume
00:21:20.680 --> 00:21:28.400
But yeah. But that's something to think about when you're choosing monitors, right?
00:21:23.560 --> 00:21:24.900
level will probably be adjusted as well.
00:21:28.560 --> 00:21:33.140
If you again, if you have a larger room, you might have to go a little bit bigger
00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:38.980
than to just have a small cone like V4s or you know the GenoLix that I'm using here.
00:21:36.840 --> 00:21:36.980
Right.
00:21:39.060 --> 00:21:43.440
But it can be tempting, like I said, to have the biggest ones,
00:21:43.560 --> 00:21:45.900
like a big eight when you think, oh, I'm
00:21:45.940 --> 00:21:47.120
going to get all this low end.
00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:49.160
And while that technically be true,
00:21:49.220 --> 00:21:52.900
it can create more issues than the positives,
00:21:53.100 --> 00:21:56.140
because you might not have proper base trapping or everything,
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:58.280
and it just ends up bouncing around your room.
00:21:58.780 --> 00:22:04.940
Well, there's other things that have to be taken into consideration as the amount of sound that the speaker is spitting out
00:21:58.840 --> 00:22:00.360
You're doing yourself a disservice.
00:22:04.940 --> 00:22:09.960
and where it's going to actually be ideal in terms of the amount of power it
00:22:10.120 --> 00:22:13.600
takes to drive that speaker and that's another reason why you want to be
00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:17.780
considerate of the size of your room when you're going for the size of your
00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:27.480
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, possibly like you said, you might
00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:22.280
speaker because the bigger they are the further away you want to sit from them.
00:22:27.580 --> 00:22:29.940
need to drive them a little bit harder and all this kind of stuff.
00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:33.100
And that may not be practical in the room where you are.
00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:34.840
And you shouldn't be mixing that loud anyway.
00:22:35.120 --> 00:22:35.720
So there you go.
00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:35.400
No.
00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:36.780
No.
00:22:36.800 --> 00:22:37.000
All right.
00:22:37.380 --> 00:22:38.840
Maybe we should touch a little bit on again.
00:22:38.980 --> 00:22:42.560
Like if you have a smaller speaker, it can be a good solution to,
00:22:42.840 --> 00:22:44.960
like you mentioned, to have a sub paired with it.
00:22:44.980 --> 00:22:46.960
I would pair a sub anyway, but yes.
00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:48.580
Would you? Yeah.
00:22:49.180 --> 00:22:52.240
Have you found that that it's changed your workflow?
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.540
Or is it just easier for you to hear the subs, essentially,
00:22:55.620 --> 00:23:01.160
because the smaller speakers not going to be able to reproduce as low as 40 or 50 perhaps,
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:01.520
Right.
00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:02.540
right, or in the low.
00:23:02.780 --> 00:23:03.020
So-
00:23:03.660 --> 00:23:07.940
Technically speaking, in the room that I'm currently in, it's probably not the wisest
00:23:08.080 --> 00:23:09.240
decision to have a sub.
00:23:09.360 --> 00:23:16.460
However, even though I still have a sub, setting the proper level with it and the proper crossover
00:23:16.460 --> 00:23:24.820
frequency and everything does allow me to hear/feel certain low end aspects of the mix
00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:32.020
that I would not be able to hear on either the Genelecs or the KRKs or any singular self-powered
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:35.960
monitor system that I could put in here that is appropriate for the size of the room.
00:23:36.280 --> 00:23:39.780
And when you say level, you're talking about actual volume of this sub now, right?
00:23:38.540 --> 00:23:39.140
Yes.
00:23:40.060 --> 00:23:40.160
Yes.
00:23:40.220 --> 00:23:40.300
Yeah.
00:23:40.760 --> 00:23:44.800
You used a word there, which is important as well to kind of keep in mind that you said
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:45.180
feel.
00:23:45.040 --> 00:23:45.640
Yep.
00:23:46.419 --> 00:23:51.980
And when you get down to certain frequencies, it's almost like you feel them more than you
00:23:52.020 --> 00:23:52.820
hear them, right?
00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:58.860
If you notice that when you turn on your sub, like your desk is shaking, there might be
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:00.320
You might be doing it wrong.
00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:00.820
too much stuff going on.
00:24:00.910 --> 00:24:01.320
Yes.
00:24:01.100 --> 00:24:03.700
Yeah, well, there might be too much stuff going on down there, right?
00:24:03.820 --> 00:24:06.040
So it can be very revealing.
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:09.380
I have chosen to go without a sub.
00:24:10.080 --> 00:24:13.360
But what I do because the Janalex don't go down very far.
00:24:13.500 --> 00:24:18.420
I think they actually go down only to about 60, which is pretty high.
00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:19.500
I'm going to say 70.
00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:24.600
You know, I'm going to say 60, but OK, we'll have to arm wrestle on that
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:26.000
or break out the documentation.
00:24:26.740 --> 00:24:32.340
What I tend to do is that's when I tend to check in headphones as well.
00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:32.740
Uh-huh.
00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:38.700
Just to kind of make sure that, okay, what I think is there is actually there.
00:24:39.540 --> 00:24:43.680
And, you know, avoiding the temptation of mixing with our eyes, right?
00:24:43.860 --> 00:24:46.640
And just having like, you know, a spectrogram in front of you.
00:24:46.700 --> 00:24:49.060
It's like, okay, well, there is something going on down there.
00:24:49.120 --> 00:24:54.000
But to make sure I'm hearing what I intend to hear, I tend to go with, you know,
00:24:51.260 --> 00:24:52.380
Right.
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:56.220
a headphone thing just to double check that.
00:24:56.260 --> 00:24:59.580
at this point, because I've been using them for a while, so I'm
00:24:59.740 --> 00:25:03.820
relatively tuned into them. So I kind of know what how to get
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:05.140
Except for when you turn sonar works on and off.
00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:09.800
that. But oh, yeah, oh, that was, yeah, that was a big thing.
00:25:10.780 --> 00:25:15.080
Absolutely. So maybe we'll go into that. What about Yeah.
00:25:13.520 --> 00:25:19.100
Sure well using both and doing a mix is you got your monitors, you have your headphones.
00:25:19.800 --> 00:25:25.960
Some people even pull out singular monitor speakers like the Aratones to check their
00:25:24.900 --> 00:25:45.880
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think that's great because when you hear it, you know, there's even like, I can't remember who it is that is it audio modern or company like that that do what they call like the mix checker, which is, you know, essentially just remove certain frequencies and emulates those things. But but you're talking about a real
00:25:26.080 --> 00:25:26.200
mixes.
00:25:29.140 --> 00:25:30.540
[
00:25:37.630 --> 00:25:37.980
[
00:25:45.900 --> 00:25:52.760
live thing where you're checking your mix on a mono designed to sound shitty
00:25:53.100 --> 00:26:02.620
speaker, right? Like the orator, because that's what they are. Well, no, but it's
00:25:55.500 --> 00:25:59.420
I'm not sure they would I'm not sure they would say that it would be designed to be
00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:00.620
sounding shitty, but yeah.
00:26:02.660 --> 00:26:07.660
not, it's, I don't think I'm stepping on any toes where I'm saying that it is what
00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:12.059
it is, it is a mix track and nobody is, they're not designing that to be your
00:26:12.060 --> 00:26:19.640
primary speaker. It is for that purpose to count. I believe that they're relatively mid heavy, and
00:26:19.900 --> 00:26:26.659
not a whole lot else, right? So it can reveal stuff that is present in your mix that may not be as
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:34.840
obvious in another environment. So people do that. I mean, people check their mixes these days on
00:26:28.840 --> 00:26:30.240
Sure.
00:26:34.840 --> 00:26:37.040
on air buds and stuff, right?
00:26:37.260 --> 00:26:40.780
So, 'cause that's how a lot of people are listening
00:26:40.780 --> 00:26:42.300
to music these days.
00:26:42.500 --> 00:26:44.840
Yeah, so you wanna make sure it's gonna translate
00:26:45.020 --> 00:26:46.440
relatively well, I guess.
00:26:46.280 --> 00:26:46.520
Yes.
00:26:47.230 --> 00:26:52.800
Well, that's the idea of using both headphones of multiple kinds and/or the type that people
00:26:47.380 --> 00:26:48.280
But let's...
00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:56.740
tend to use in addition to the studio monitors that you have.
00:26:54.420 --> 00:26:54.900
Yeah.
00:26:57.180 --> 00:26:59.920
Yeah, so everything is basically just different tools
00:27:00.100 --> 00:27:02.620
to help you make sure that you mix translates,
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:05.440
which is, I think, one of the hardest things,
00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:08.180
like when we start out, if we don't realize
00:27:09.400 --> 00:27:11.360
how poorly our room might sound,
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:14.020
because we have no other reference, right?
00:27:13.800 --> 00:27:13.980
Uh-huh.
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:16.580
And then it's the old, oh, let's go out
00:27:16.580 --> 00:27:17.920
and listen to the chord type of thing.
00:27:18.420 --> 00:27:21.100
And then you go, wow, what happened, right?
00:27:20.420 --> 00:27:20.540
Yep.
00:27:21.220 --> 00:27:23.220
Or if you're lucky, it's like, yeah, that went great.
00:27:23.320 --> 00:27:24.580
All the first try, great.
00:27:25.060 --> 00:27:26.240
You know, different,
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:30.320
Well, then there's also the aspect of having other mixer friends, mixing engineer friends
00:27:26.600 --> 00:27:36.160
and definitely, definitely.
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:35.440
that you can send mixes to and say, "Hey, what do you think of this?"
00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:39.540
And they have a different setup than you and they are going to hear different things than
00:27:39.540 --> 00:27:43.980
you and they can give you good feedback if they know what they're talking about.
00:27:44.080 --> 00:27:45.520
And that is a good thing.
00:27:45.780 --> 00:27:49.520
And whenever you get that feedback, don't take it personally.
00:27:49.780 --> 00:27:52.060
Remember, you're asking for a good thing.
00:27:52.220 --> 00:27:54.460
You're not asking them to just stroke your ego.
00:27:54.600 --> 00:27:56.260
And if they go, hey, this sounds great.
00:27:56.460 --> 00:27:56.700
Awesome.
00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:57.500
You've done your job.
00:27:57.530 --> 00:28:01.420
But if they go, hey, I think your left guitar
00:28:01.680 --> 00:28:03.940
is a little bit too loud in the bridge or whatever it is.
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:07.760
Take that to heart and maybe reconsider it.
00:28:08.340 --> 00:28:10.480
We talked about different environments,
00:28:10.600 --> 00:28:14.200
but there is a lot of room correction software now.
00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:17.460
Or the big one that you and I talk about a lot
00:28:17.660 --> 00:28:19.000
is now sound ID.
00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:20.660
It used to be Sonarworks, right?
00:28:20.620 --> 00:28:21.900
Well, it's made by Sonarworks.
00:28:21.980 --> 00:28:23.120
It's called SoundID now.
00:28:23.560 --> 00:28:28.840
That was when I got that, it really, really, really improved my mixes.
00:28:28.820 --> 00:28:36.080
Was it like getting a spanking and saying, "Here, now you can do it right?"
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:35.900
I'm trying to think of a sexual joke, but I can't.
00:28:36.080 --> 00:28:36.340
(laughing)
00:28:36.220 --> 00:28:39.820
But it was, well, it was very revealing.
00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:48.800
It was, I started noticing that the issues that my room had, even though I'm not
00:28:46.360 --> 00:28:46.500
Mm-hmm.
00:28:48.800 --> 00:28:54.340
sitting in a professionally tuned room. I've done the best that I can in the room that I'm in,
00:28:51.740 --> 00:29:17.180
Yn y cyffred
00:28:54.840 --> 00:29:00.080
but there are still issues. And so in our works is taking care of that because it showed me that
00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:08.980
I know I had a bump in around that 110 mark or something. My mix is never sounded full because
00:29:09.160 --> 00:29:16.240
I would compensate by that by bringing down those frequencies. Having those removed from my
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:20.720
listening path and compensating for the room allowed me to make more educated decisions
00:29:21.140 --> 00:29:22.080
because I could actually hear.
00:29:22.100 --> 00:29:23.860
We can't fix what we can't hear.
00:29:24.320 --> 00:29:24.420
Right.
00:29:25.340 --> 00:29:30.400
And the same thing again, going for headphones when I check there, there's another profile
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:31.080
right there.
00:29:31.300 --> 00:29:32.500
So, great tools.
00:29:32.860 --> 00:29:33.220
Great tools.
00:29:33.380 --> 00:29:39.180
I wouldn't, unless I was in like a really amazing room, I would not mix without them.
00:29:38.840 --> 00:29:45.200
Well, but even in a really amazing room, it helps substantially to have four or five
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:52.160
tracks that you know the entire ins and outs based on a variety of different
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:48.400
Yes.
00:29:52.220 --> 00:29:58.620
listening environments to give yourself your own reference tools to what that
00:29:58.740 --> 00:30:04.620
room is supposed to sound like if you're not going to use sonar works I'll just
00:29:59.919 --> 00:30:01.320
Yeah.
00:30:04.660 --> 00:30:09.440
go right out on a limb say right now one of my primo tracks to listen to in order
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:13.320
to understand a room like that is Red Rain by Peter Gabriel.
00:30:11.580 --> 00:30:12.980
Yeah.
00:30:13.980 --> 00:30:23.840
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you do that, you kind of get a picture of what's happening in the
00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:17.700
Oh, the range on that song is insane.
00:30:23.880 --> 00:30:30.480
low end, what's happening at the top and presumably all mid range as well. Like you start noticing
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:36.060
if it's certain nodes, if something is missing somewhere, or if it's heavy in certain frequencies,
00:30:36.180 --> 00:30:40.860
is that so how long does that process kind of take you is that at this point, is that
00:30:40.860 --> 00:30:56.260
pretty much instant for you now. That's good. Yeah. Okay, yeah, could be a lot worse songs
00:30:42.980 --> 00:30:46.600
pretty close. And I do it whether it's monitor speakers or
00:30:47.340 --> 00:30:51.220
headphones speakers. That's like my go to song like one of my
00:30:51.300 --> 00:30:53.000
go to songs right there. Red Rain.
00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:03.920
than that, right? So yeah, now that's really interesting. Now, a new thing is the technology
00:31:04.100 --> 00:31:11.960
now where using headphones, we can get the sense of sitting in a different room and mixing.
00:31:12.180 --> 00:31:12.480
Sure.
00:31:12.460 --> 00:31:18.940
Like I mentioned like the Slate VSX, right? Waves have the Rome one together. It's got the NX series.
00:31:14.500 --> 00:31:15.160
Mm-hmm.
00:31:15.520 --> 00:31:17.780
Yn ymwne
00:31:18.980 --> 00:31:23.680
I think there's like an Ocean Wave Nashville and they have Mixed Up I Hear and LA, the
00:31:23.900 --> 00:31:29.320
Chris Lord Algae Room. There's others as well like D-Sonic has a, you know, a protocol, real phones.
00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:42.020
Compensating for, you know, your hype of your headphone, it attempts to buy an orally put you in a space that is an actual room that is tuned and professionally treated and all this kind of stuff.
00:31:42.700 --> 00:31:47.260
Have you tried those out? And if so, what's your experience with them?
00:31:47.580 --> 00:31:48.980
I haven't actually tried them out.
00:31:49.060 --> 00:31:54.300
The thing that would bother me about it is whether or not they have the profile of the
00:31:49.560 --> 00:31:49.780
Yeah.
00:31:54.340 --> 00:31:54.660
headphones.
00:31:55.130 --> 00:32:00.060
If they don't have the profile of the headphones that I'm using, it doesn't matter what room
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:05.420
they set me in because it's going to be hyped by whatever headphone I'm using.
00:32:03.540 --> 00:32:13.640
Yeah, it's good. Right. Right. Right. Right. Well, that's what slate does. I guess they
00:32:05.470 --> 00:32:10.520
So they have to be able to remove the headphone hype before they set me in the room.
00:32:12.040 --> 00:32:12.780
That's what I would say.
00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:23.000
actually you get the headphones right so high quality set. Yeah, you get the think the real
00:32:16.100 --> 00:32:19.180
Oh, so the slate system is the headphones that you have to get.
00:32:20.420 --> 00:32:21.040
And that makes sense.
00:32:23.080 --> 00:32:29.320
phones on the D Sonic ones, they have certain profiles for your headphones as well. I'm
00:32:28.700 --> 00:32:29.100
Right.
00:32:29.380 --> 00:32:38.280
not sure that the waves one does. And if they have changed us, I think so too. But one thing
00:32:33.380 --> 00:32:35.900
If it doesn't, I think that's a problem.
00:32:38.280 --> 00:32:43.220
that I try because I've tried out, I tried the waves one and I've tried the real phones
00:32:43.320 --> 00:32:52.500
one and you have to allow yourself to get used to doing that because it is a very, very
00:32:49.280 --> 00:32:50.040
Sure.
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:58.020
different feeling than just listening in regular headphones because you're sort of losing that
00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:01.660
directional thing that we talked about with the stereo image, right?
00:33:02.530 --> 00:33:08.260
For me, I have had a hard time getting used to it, but I'm pretty happy with my room or
00:33:08.260 --> 00:33:13.320
sit most of the time. But as a second pair of headphones, I
00:33:13.320 --> 00:33:20.680
would be very intrigued to kind of try the slate thing. Yeah.
00:33:17.360 --> 00:33:17.440
However,
00:33:17.540 --> 00:33:22.940
But the one thing that I'll kind of point out is that people tend to say, well, if you
00:33:23.080 --> 00:33:27.060
can make it sound good on these, it's going to sound good anywhere.
00:33:28.020 --> 00:33:29.280
(laughter)
00:33:28.120 --> 00:33:31.640
And the reality of that is like, no, that's not true.
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:33.360
You have to know your system.
00:33:33.600 --> 00:33:35.340
You have to know what's going on.
00:33:35.620 --> 00:33:41.500
And you have to have it in a setup that doesn't technically lie to you on a grand scale.
00:33:41.980 --> 00:33:43.140
All systems are going to lie.
00:33:43.520 --> 00:33:48.200
how much you can remove the extraneous portions of the light that will help you get to a good
00:33:48.300 --> 00:33:48.500
mix.
00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:55.480
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember hearing that a lot early on when it's basically an excuse
00:33:49.640 --> 00:33:50.660
And that's the reality.
00:33:55.660 --> 00:34:00.900
for people to say, oh, I know I got shitty speakers in a shitty room, but if I could
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:04.360
make it sound good on these, it's going to sound great everywhere. It doesn't mean that
00:34:04.420 --> 00:34:09.760
it's going to translate. And that can sound harsh, but that's just the reality of it.
00:34:09.720 --> 00:34:10.240
Sure.
00:34:10.280 --> 00:34:16.440
know, to wrap this up, I think, learn what your headphones or
00:34:16.580 --> 00:34:20.100
what your monitors sound like, get really, really comfortable
00:34:20.240 --> 00:34:20.700
with that.
00:34:20.779 --> 00:34:26.360
And with that, we will move on to Friday Fines.
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:28.480
Chris, what do you have?
00:34:28.040 --> 00:34:33.540
Whoo, I have another find to outputs arcade, that is now
00:34:33.700 --> 00:34:39.359
version 2.0, that I really, really enjoyed. There's been some new
00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:44.740
implementation, it's the GUI has changed and developed a little bit. I noticed
00:34:44.850 --> 00:34:50.980
that there have been some bugs fixed hint hint. Also what they've added now with
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:58.740
this engine is that you have a lot more control of playing pitched samples. What
00:34:58.040 --> 00:34:58.200
Hmm.
00:34:58.740 --> 00:35:05.400
I mean by that in past versions you could play a sample and you could adjust
00:35:05.860 --> 00:35:10.900
what pitch that was being played back at. And you have a relatively rudimentary
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:14.180
control over that. But now that has changed so that you have a little bit
00:35:14.260 --> 00:35:17.840
more control over that you can actually treat it more like an instrument. And
00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:23.920
that is a cool thing. RK2.0 by Output is my find of this Friday. What about you
00:35:23.980 --> 00:35:24.840
Jody? What do you got?
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:31.420
Well, I'm taking a look at the IK Multimedia Taskam tape plugins.
00:35:32.500 --> 00:35:37.920
So for all of you, yeah, for all of you young guys that wished that you could have
00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:33.660
Yeah, I saw that.
00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:42.460
started like Chris and I technically did on Taskam Porta Studios,
00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:49.520
you can now get that Taskam Porta Studio sound, maybe not exactly the same way as
00:35:49.600 --> 00:35:54.080
we did it, but you can at least have that concept in your wheelhouse.
00:35:54.300 --> 00:36:00.700
Because they've gone through and they have emulated the recording and play heads of the Porta One studio.
00:36:01.040 --> 00:36:08.600
In addition to that, they've done a couple of others like the 388, which I'm kind of curious to wonder why they didn't do the 688.
00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:09.680
I don't know.
00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:18.720
The reality is, is those machines were actually quite clever machines and they were very good at getting the average musician the ability to record themselves on a multitrack.
00:36:19.380 --> 00:36:21.280
And they were small, they were portable, they were great.
00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:19.800
Absolutely.
00:36:21.420 --> 00:36:23.440
They could run on batteries or on AC power.
00:36:23.540 --> 00:36:24.860
Yeah.
00:36:23.780 --> 00:36:24.220
It was awesome.
00:36:24.460 --> 00:36:25.800
Great way to start out for recording.
00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:28.220
However, we're well beyond that now.
00:36:26.510 --> 00:36:26.940
Yeah.
00:36:28.820 --> 00:36:34.120
But if you want that kind of tape quality type thing, you can now get it from
00:36:34.220 --> 00:36:37.300
IK Multimedia with their Tascam tape collection.
00:36:37.080 --> 00:36:39.880
Very cool very cool
00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:38.820
And that's my Friday find.
00:36:40.340 --> 00:36:43.640
While we've got your attention, we would like you to go to our website and leave
00:36:43.740 --> 00:36:48.039
us a review at inside the recording studio dot com forward slash review or go to
00:36:48.040 --> 00:36:52.000
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00:36:52.560 --> 00:36:55.780
You'll get weekly reminders about the tips that we put out every Tuesday
00:36:56.080 --> 00:36:59.520
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00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:03.640
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00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:07.040
Send us an email at goldstar G.O.L.D.
00:37:07.200 --> 00:37:11.940
S.T.A.R. at inside the recording studio dot com with the word monitoring
00:37:12.440 --> 00:37:14.320
and you'll get something cool back in your inbox.
00:37:14.720 --> 00:37:18.020
If you have a topic of suggestion for Chris and I to explain
00:37:18.020 --> 00:37:23.340
episode. Contact us via the contact page and we'll put it into consideration for
00:37:23.340 --> 00:37:28.040
a future episode. And with that I will say see you next week!
00:37:25.520 --> 00:37:26.920
ʻƏ
00:37:28.600 --> 00:37:29.420
Have a good one Jody.
00:37:29.780 --> 00:37:30.760
Thanks for listening everybody.