Conversations Beyond Borders

WEBVTT

00:00:00.650 --> 00:00:04.494
Hello, everyone. My name is Joanne Lockwood and I'm your host for

00:00:04.532 --> 00:00:08.266
the Inclusion Bites podcast. In this series,

00:00:08.378 --> 00:00:11.918
I've interviewed a number of amazing people have simply had a

00:00:11.924 --> 00:00:15.514
conversation around the subject of inclusion, belonging

00:00:15.642 --> 00:00:19.390
and generally making the world a better place for everyone to thrive.

00:00:20.210 --> 00:00:23.518
If you'd like to join me in the future, then please do drop me a

00:00:23.524 --> 00:00:24.320
line to

00:00:24.970 --> 00:00:27.622
jo.lockwood@seechangehappen.co.uk,

00:00:27.676 --> 00:00:31.458
that's S-E-E Change Happen dot co

00:00:31.458 --> 00:00:35.206
dot uk. You can catch up with all

00:00:35.228 --> 00:00:38.934
of the previous shows on itunes, Spotify and the usual places.

00:00:38.982 --> 00:00:42.698
So plug in your headphones, grab a decaf

00:00:42.704 --> 00:00:45.180
and let's get going. Today

00:00:46.270 --> 00:00:49.968
is Episode 90 with the title"Conversations

00:00:49.968 --> 00:00:53.070
Beyond Borders"", and I

00:00:53.730 --> 00:00:56.542
have the absolute honour and privilege to welcome Kaumudi, Kaumudi

00:00:56.676 --> 00:01:00.430
Goda, or KG, to her friends and associates.

00:01:00.500 --> 00:01:03.854
KG is a Leadership Consultant, Executive

00:01:03.902 --> 00:01:05.842
Coach and DEIB Strategist.

00:01:08.710 --> 00:01:12.354
When I asked KG to describe her superpower, she

00:01:12.392 --> 00:01:16.214
said it's her cross siloed perspective, passion for

00:01:16.252 --> 00:01:19.574
fact based big picture thinking and a commitment to

00:01:19.612 --> 00:01:23.302
ethical, compassionate business. Hello,

00:01:23.356 --> 00:01:27.106
Kg, welcome to the show. Hi, Joanne.

00:01:27.138 --> 00:01:30.538
Thank you for having me. Absolute pleasure. So you're in

00:01:30.544 --> 00:01:33.962
Amsterdam at the moment and it's a bit cold, damp and

00:01:34.096 --> 00:01:37.802
wet over there. Is it? Yeah, the temperatures plunged this past

00:01:37.856 --> 00:01:41.302
week, so we're headed for a rather frosty

00:01:41.366 --> 00:01:44.998
winter, looks like, here. Yeah, I guess it is the 1

00:01:45.024 --> 00:01:48.814
December, so, yeah, I guess we've got colder weather to come,

00:01:48.852 --> 00:01:51.802
but, yeah, as long as we're wrapped up nice and warm in our own homes,

00:01:51.866 --> 00:01:55.570
that's all that matters right now. Absolutely. KG

00:01:55.990 --> 00:01:59.746
conversations beyond borders. Tell me more about that.

00:01:59.928 --> 00:02:03.326
I loved when you picked that title for our conversation.

00:02:03.518 --> 00:02:07.014
Conversation is very important to me. I call my business

00:02:07.132 --> 00:02:10.934
the Human Conversation because I think if we can all

00:02:10.972 --> 00:02:14.642
rise above our little differences and have conversations

00:02:14.706 --> 00:02:18.314
at a human level, we'd definitely be able to build a better

00:02:18.352 --> 00:02:21.814
future for all of us together. And so Conversations Beyond

00:02:21.862 --> 00:02:25.114
Borders seems perfect for our conversation this

00:02:25.152 --> 00:02:28.986
morning. Yeah, I

00:02:29.008 --> 00:02:32.782
think that's a good starting point, isn't it? Because

00:02:32.916 --> 00:02:36.558
often, and we look at the world around us at the

00:02:36.564 --> 00:02:40.126
moment where there are conflicts and

00:02:40.228 --> 00:02:43.806
tragedies happening, wars, conflicts, wherever you want to

00:02:43.828 --> 00:02:47.362
describe them, and most of them are where conversations break

00:02:47.416 --> 00:02:50.974
down. And it's really, really important that we recognise

00:02:51.022 --> 00:02:54.594
how we don't always have to be

00:02:54.632 --> 00:02:57.910
right. Not being right is really important and

00:02:58.060 --> 00:03:01.526
understanding perspectives. So for me, that's the basis of

00:03:01.548 --> 00:03:05.078
conversation. So what do you talk about in those sort of

00:03:05.084 --> 00:03:08.182
terms? My own

00:03:08.236 --> 00:03:12.086
sensitivity and my lens is informed by the fact that I've

00:03:12.118 --> 00:03:15.866
always felt like I don't really fit in. I remember

00:03:15.968 --> 00:03:19.606
I felt like I didn't fit in as a young girl growing

00:03:19.638 --> 00:03:23.386
up in a rather patriarchal culture

00:03:23.498 --> 00:03:27.120
in South India. I didn't feel like I fit in

00:03:27.650 --> 00:03:31.406
as a young professional, pretty new in

00:03:31.508 --> 00:03:35.122
New York City, Manhattan. I spent a decade there and I

00:03:35.176 --> 00:03:38.562
think as I went through life, my

00:03:38.616 --> 00:03:42.354
realisation was. All of us are seeking that sense

00:03:42.392 --> 00:03:45.922
of community, that sense of validation, wanting

00:03:45.986 --> 00:03:49.010
to feel seen, heard, understood,

00:03:49.090 --> 00:03:52.310
accepted. That's a universal human

00:03:52.460 --> 00:03:56.022
emotion. But all of us are mired in our

00:03:56.076 --> 00:03:59.270
own little worries,

00:04:00.270 --> 00:04:04.086
feeling alone and wanting to connect and yet failing to realise

00:04:04.198 --> 00:04:07.626
everyone else is likely feeling the same. We all feel like we are

00:04:07.648 --> 00:04:10.640
islands, maroon. And if we could

00:04:11.730 --> 00:04:15.082
embrace our own positions in those borders,

00:04:15.146 --> 00:04:18.638
recognise that maybe standing, feeling like we're standing outside,

00:04:18.724 --> 00:04:22.390
looking in, everyone else is in the same spot,

00:04:22.490 --> 00:04:26.082
it might make it easier to really appreciate somebody

00:04:26.136 --> 00:04:29.614
else's perspective, somebody else's viewpoint, and accept

00:04:29.662 --> 00:04:33.406
that my journey might be different from yours. But you're equally

00:04:33.518 --> 00:04:36.994
valid and entitled to having your opinions,

00:04:37.122 --> 00:04:40.722
having your life experiences, informing your worldviews,

00:04:40.786 --> 00:04:44.578
just as I am entitled to mine. That space of patience,

00:04:44.674 --> 00:04:48.358
compassion, curiosity that comes, I think,

00:04:48.524 --> 00:04:51.994
both with willingness to accept it, but also maybe

00:04:52.112 --> 00:04:55.610
time and patience with that. I certainly still

00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:59.482
feel I'm on that journey, but I'm willing to embrace it and I invite everyone

00:04:59.536 --> 00:05:03.146
else to do so as well. Yeah, that's really important. And I think what you're

00:05:03.178 --> 00:05:06.670
saying there is we have to avoid the temptation

00:05:07.090 --> 00:05:10.926
to want to be right, to speak through our own lens, to speak through

00:05:10.948 --> 00:05:14.450
our own perspective. As the only thought,

00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:18.306
I think is the trouble with opinions is

00:05:18.328 --> 00:05:21.954
they are often based on our own facts, our own view of the world,

00:05:21.992 --> 00:05:25.778
and not necessarily reflective of other facts. Which is

00:05:25.784 --> 00:05:29.014
why we know diversity is important, diversity of voice is important in

00:05:29.052 --> 00:05:32.738
organisations and society to get more than one truth. Because there's

00:05:32.754 --> 00:05:36.406
obviously my perspective, your perspective and the shared perspective of a

00:05:36.428 --> 00:05:40.278
greater view of something. But

00:05:40.364 --> 00:05:44.214
we get too hung up, though, don't we, on having to be right. Confirmation

00:05:44.262 --> 00:05:47.642
bias, I think, for want of a better way of describing it, as a human

00:05:47.696 --> 00:05:50.860
species, why would I want to be wrong all the time?

00:05:51.230 --> 00:05:54.990
It's a human trait to be right, isn't it? And I think

00:05:55.140 --> 00:05:58.974
we need all kinds of perspectives, all kinds of energies and

00:05:59.012 --> 00:06:02.506
visions. If I could pick an example of a

00:06:02.548 --> 00:06:05.858
team that's working together. We need

00:06:05.944 --> 00:06:09.214
visionary folks who have distinct

00:06:09.262 --> 00:06:12.914
ideas and assertively state them with clarity. We

00:06:12.952 --> 00:06:16.342
need that voice, but we also need folks who

00:06:16.396 --> 00:06:20.102
are quite strong in their own

00:06:20.156 --> 00:06:23.974
thoughts and voices, but are feeling ready

00:06:24.092 --> 00:06:27.846
to hold a space for more than one truth at

00:06:27.868 --> 00:06:31.514
the same time. And we need both those voices. In a company, you need

00:06:31.552 --> 00:06:34.742
that assertive, charismatic, extroverted

00:06:34.806 --> 00:06:38.490
promoter of the business idea, but you also need

00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:42.230
folks who are collaborative, open to other ideas,

00:06:42.310 --> 00:06:45.950
willing to explore this might be true, but what else might be true?

00:06:46.020 --> 00:06:49.806
What are we not considering? What are we failing to consider when

00:06:49.828 --> 00:06:53.422
we say assertively, this is the direction we want to go? You need

00:06:53.556 --> 00:06:57.346
all those energies together in a team. It takes discipline and

00:06:57.368 --> 00:07:01.054
it takes commitment, but it also takes a great deal of self confidence

00:07:01.102 --> 00:07:04.674
to be holding that space of saying I am very

00:07:04.712 --> 00:07:08.262
sure about what I believe in, but I can also respect somebody

00:07:08.316 --> 00:07:11.766
else's beliefs and be willing to listen to it. It's not easy. I

00:07:11.788 --> 00:07:15.526
acknowledge that. It takes, I think, a lot

00:07:15.548 --> 00:07:18.360
of self confidence and patience and

00:07:19.530 --> 00:07:23.266
certainly experience. Yeah.

00:07:23.308 --> 00:07:26.810
I think often we find that leaders,

00:07:27.550 --> 00:07:31.070
managers, project leaders in organisations

00:07:31.730 --> 00:07:35.198
often lack what I would call cultural competency or

00:07:35.364 --> 00:07:38.560
cultural intelligence to be able to

00:07:39.170 --> 00:07:42.958
be competent in environments where they have a range of

00:07:42.964 --> 00:07:46.702
different views, different experiences, range of personality

00:07:46.766 --> 00:07:50.130
types, if you like. And often when we're trying to lead these teams,

00:07:50.790 --> 00:07:53.934
we don't truly understand each person's

00:07:53.982 --> 00:07:56.150
motivation, each person's

00:07:57.450 --> 00:08:00.806
communication style, each person's sort of the way they want to

00:08:00.828 --> 00:08:03.960
interact. And sometimes we treat people the same

00:08:04.330 --> 00:08:06.870
and miss the nuances of people's personalities.

00:08:07.930 --> 00:08:11.386
Agree, John? And also, I think that in the

00:08:11.408 --> 00:08:15.222
corporate sector we tend to defy

00:08:15.366 --> 00:08:19.162
a certain personality type. The cult of personality, which

00:08:19.216 --> 00:08:22.794
is fairly prevalent in United States in the corporate

00:08:22.842 --> 00:08:26.426
world, there certainly has seemed to have spread

00:08:26.538 --> 00:08:29.758
in other parts of the world as well. I see that

00:08:29.924 --> 00:08:33.746
charismatic CEO type of a personality that's the one

00:08:33.768 --> 00:08:37.522
that's most recognised as leadership looks

00:08:37.576 --> 00:08:41.134
like that. I had a conversation with a quiet

00:08:41.262 --> 00:08:44.942
friend once and he told me kg, do you recognise

00:08:45.006 --> 00:08:48.818
what a disadvantage it is to be a soft spoken,

00:08:48.914 --> 00:08:52.502
introverted, shy person in the corporate world? You're simply not

00:08:52.556 --> 00:08:56.358
seen as leadership material. And what a blow that is

00:08:56.444 --> 00:08:59.990
to all of us that we cannot recognise

00:09:00.070 --> 00:09:02.010
leadership in all its forms.

00:09:04.510 --> 00:09:08.122
Being outspoken, outgoing for an introvert or

00:09:08.176 --> 00:09:11.866
even an ambivert, or someone who is not competent in speaking out can

00:09:11.888 --> 00:09:15.678
be very exhausting, can't it's? Almost inauthentic as

00:09:15.684 --> 00:09:19.066
well, because you're having to be the person you're not, you're covering, you're masking, you're

00:09:19.098 --> 00:09:22.606
pretending just to be heard. That's exhausting. Yes,

00:09:22.708 --> 00:09:26.130
it is. We shouldn't have to mask, we shouldn't have to code

00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:29.826
switch. These are all terms that perhaps you and I are

00:09:29.848 --> 00:09:33.470
familiar with, but for those who are not familiar with it, masking

00:09:33.550 --> 00:09:37.234
is if I were to feel uncomfortable with

00:09:37.272 --> 00:09:40.934
being myself and I have to put up a front, behave in a certain

00:09:40.972 --> 00:09:44.514
way, change myself to fit into a workplace

00:09:44.562 --> 00:09:48.054
culture, that would be masking. And code switching is similarly, I

00:09:48.092 --> 00:09:51.786
speak differently. I communicate and hold myself out in a

00:09:51.808 --> 00:09:55.626
certain way because I feel speaking as myself, communicating what

00:09:55.648 --> 00:09:59.366
is naturally my style would not be acceptable. That's

00:09:59.398 --> 00:10:03.054
code switching as well. And we all do that. And we should

00:10:03.092 --> 00:10:06.766
be cognizant of the importance of creating spaces where none of

00:10:06.788 --> 00:10:09.310
us have to mask or code switch.

00:10:10.690 --> 00:10:14.498
Yeah, I mean, people are probably more familiar these days with the

00:10:14.504 --> 00:10:18.210
term or phrase bring your whole self to work and also

00:10:18.280 --> 00:10:21.726
psychological safety, which are kind of ways of creating

00:10:21.758 --> 00:10:25.366
environments where people don't have to mask, code switch or

00:10:25.388 --> 00:10:29.106
cover or hide who they are. So we're

00:10:29.138 --> 00:10:32.534
already trying to bring those senses of

00:10:32.572 --> 00:10:36.246
self into the workplace and allow people to be themselves more

00:10:36.268 --> 00:10:39.894
and more 100%. Psychological safety

00:10:39.942 --> 00:10:43.690
is absolutely the number one thing all of us need.

00:10:43.760 --> 00:10:47.174
Until I feel I am in a safe

00:10:47.222 --> 00:10:50.906
space, I'm not even able to be curious, to be a

00:10:50.928 --> 00:10:54.394
learner, to even bring my best to work, forget

00:10:54.442 --> 00:10:58.190
about feeling like I can trust my colleagues. That won't even

00:10:58.260 --> 00:11:02.046
be the second or third step. The first step is to

00:11:02.068 --> 00:11:05.106
feel safe. Then I can relax, then I can learn, then I can do my

00:11:05.128 --> 00:11:08.866
best, and then perhaps I'll consider connecting with other people. None of those

00:11:08.888 --> 00:11:11.860
will happen without psychological safety. You're absolutely right.

00:11:13.350 --> 00:11:16.040
You mentioned that you are

00:11:16.810 --> 00:11:20.626
based in North America for a while. You've lived

00:11:20.658 --> 00:11:24.166
in Singapore for a while, maybe you grew up in

00:11:24.188 --> 00:11:26.790
India. Now you're in Amsterdam and Netherlands.

00:11:27.930 --> 00:11:31.226
Tell us a bit about your career and how that's evolved over those years.

00:11:31.408 --> 00:11:34.806
That's a beautiful analogy right there. I think that's

00:11:34.998 --> 00:11:38.826
perhaps paralleled by my career as well. I've moved around a lot

00:11:38.928 --> 00:11:42.634
and that informs my lens. Similarly, in my career,

00:11:42.682 --> 00:11:46.334
I started out as a lawyer. I practised law in New York

00:11:46.372 --> 00:11:49.754
City for about seven years. And therefore that legal

00:11:49.802 --> 00:11:53.322
perspective, that risk assessment, that compliance

00:11:53.386 --> 00:11:57.042
with regulatory, the logic that all of us abide by

00:11:57.096 --> 00:12:00.754
certain laws is very central to how I

00:12:00.792 --> 00:12:04.434
look at solving problems in the workplace as well. And about seven

00:12:04.472 --> 00:12:08.134
years in Joanne, I realised I was that classic Indian kid. I

00:12:08.172 --> 00:12:11.974
was blinkers on. Grades were important, as is with

00:12:12.012 --> 00:12:15.746
a lot of children growing up in the Global South. Grades

00:12:15.778 --> 00:12:19.482
were important because your education is your passport to a better

00:12:19.536 --> 00:12:23.094
life, more secure food security, shelter, financial

00:12:23.142 --> 00:12:26.602
security. All of that comes with working hard and

00:12:26.736 --> 00:12:30.186
having access to better education. And that's what I focused on.

00:12:30.288 --> 00:12:33.902
And law seemed like a solid career. I

00:12:33.956 --> 00:12:37.514
love it. I absolutely enjoyed my legal career.

00:12:37.562 --> 00:12:40.926
But seven years in, I was beginning to question what else is out there? Because

00:12:40.948 --> 00:12:44.306
I had never explored anything else. My dad's a lawyer as well, and our

00:12:44.328 --> 00:12:47.842
conversations around the dinner table were all around that

00:12:47.896 --> 00:12:51.330
career. And so MBA then

00:12:51.400 --> 00:12:55.114
seemed like a good pairing, because an MBA really is like a finishing

00:12:55.182 --> 00:12:59.014
course. It's a miniature introduction to a lot of

00:12:59.052 --> 00:13:02.150
different topics marketing, accounting, finance.

00:13:02.650 --> 00:13:05.954
And I realised I was gravitating a lot towards leadership

00:13:06.002 --> 00:13:09.706
development and human strategy, human capital strategy. And I think

00:13:09.728 --> 00:13:13.222
it's because what gave me the greatest joy

00:13:13.366 --> 00:13:17.014
with law was understanding that we all operate

00:13:17.062 --> 00:13:20.686
within a certain regulatory framework. And the challenge is

00:13:20.708 --> 00:13:24.462
to find solutions for your clients within that. And

00:13:24.516 --> 00:13:27.710
in a corporate world, when as a consultant, as

00:13:27.780 --> 00:13:31.626
a person working in human capital strategy, it's

00:13:31.658 --> 00:13:35.134
the same. You're working within the corporate regulatory

00:13:35.182 --> 00:13:38.626
framework and you're trying to solve for your clients, for your

00:13:38.648 --> 00:13:42.226
stakeholders, for your products. And so it spoke to

00:13:42.248 --> 00:13:45.830
me and about, again, seven years in of

00:13:45.900 --> 00:13:49.270
that I'm curious learner. I thought,

00:13:49.420 --> 00:13:53.266
I'm a lawyer and consultant. A lot of people confide

00:13:53.298 --> 00:13:57.030
in me, how can I hold space for better

00:13:57.100 --> 00:14:00.906
conversations? How can I better support

00:14:01.008 --> 00:14:04.554
people who are speaking with me, confiding me in me, all sorts of

00:14:04.592 --> 00:14:08.054
things. I thought maybe coaching is a good skill to acquire.

00:14:08.182 --> 00:14:11.690
And it was catalytic and transformative. Joanne I just

00:14:11.760 --> 00:14:15.294
ended up thinking, why didn't I do it 20 years back? I would have been

00:14:15.332 --> 00:14:18.570
a better human being for it. This is so phenomenal

00:14:18.650 --> 00:14:22.186
because it was indeed training on skills,

00:14:22.298 --> 00:14:26.046
but also deeper reflection. The kind that I'd never learned

00:14:26.078 --> 00:14:29.314
in law school, never learned in business school, is really

00:14:29.352 --> 00:14:33.074
exploring who I am, why I show up in

00:14:33.112 --> 00:14:36.818
certain ways, in certain situations and what do I want to

00:14:36.824 --> 00:14:40.454
be going forward. And that sort of deep exploration to

00:14:40.492 --> 00:14:44.326
my own psyche was meant to be a foundation for how

00:14:44.348 --> 00:14:47.570
I can hold that space for other people. It's part of coach training.

00:14:47.740 --> 00:14:51.580
But it was so transformative for me.

00:14:52.030 --> 00:14:55.260
It just became a big part of who I am today. So,

00:14:55.790 --> 00:14:59.622
like, with how I moved around a lot, physically,

00:14:59.686 --> 00:15:03.374
geographically, I also moved around a lot in my career. And all

00:15:03.412 --> 00:15:06.942
of that boundary spanning, standing at the edges, looking

00:15:06.996 --> 00:15:10.846
in, is also what feels like my career. These

00:15:10.868 --> 00:15:13.620
are all support services, law

00:15:13.990 --> 00:15:17.234
consulting, these are all folks who

00:15:17.272 --> 00:15:20.846
are standing and supporting

00:15:21.038 --> 00:15:24.818
central business activity. And I guess that's the

00:15:24.824 --> 00:15:28.598
red thread is throughout all of that, I was seeking, what's the

00:15:28.604 --> 00:15:32.454
right thing to do? How can we be the truest, how can I

00:15:32.492 --> 00:15:35.640
be the truest, most

00:15:36.810 --> 00:15:40.498
maybe value based person? I can be doing the most

00:15:40.524 --> 00:15:44.234
right thing I could do? And that's also what I realised, is what I am

00:15:44.272 --> 00:15:47.754
trying to create with my work today is creating those

00:15:47.792 --> 00:15:51.590
workplaces that are ethical, inclusive, inspirational. I think

00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.322
it's possible for all of us. I think I often find that's a big component

00:15:55.386 --> 00:15:58.640
that's missing in lots of education is helping people

00:15:59.330 --> 00:16:03.058
find that inner core. Because if you are

00:16:03.144 --> 00:16:06.866
in touch with that, no matter how crazy

00:16:06.968 --> 00:16:10.610
the context is, through COVID, through any of the

00:16:10.680 --> 00:16:14.322
complex VUCA ness of the world, because

00:16:14.376 --> 00:16:17.974
you know who you are at the core, you're informed by

00:16:18.012 --> 00:16:21.080
that. And that in turn will be your North Star.

00:16:22.330 --> 00:16:25.542
I think I mentioned this to you in the green room before we went live,

00:16:25.596 --> 00:16:29.226
that my background was in It and computing and

00:16:29.328 --> 00:16:33.034
I probably spent the formative parts of my life

00:16:33.072 --> 00:16:36.380
and career in a logical black and white

00:16:36.830 --> 00:16:40.394
binary. It works, it doesn't work. Very absolute

00:16:40.512 --> 00:16:44.238
world. And I'm going to make the assumption that

00:16:44.324 --> 00:16:48.062
being a lawyer is quite absolute at times. You win,

00:16:48.116 --> 00:16:51.726
you lose. You're right, you're wrong. There's a definitive answer to

00:16:51.748 --> 00:16:54.660
everything. And what I found moving into the people space

00:16:55.430 --> 00:16:59.106
was that there are no absolutes people are people people are different. People have different

00:16:59.128 --> 00:17:02.866
perspectives. And I realised that I

00:17:02.888 --> 00:17:06.274
was forcing my brain into a logical place

00:17:06.472 --> 00:17:10.150
that it was okay with. But actually it wanted to find the human

00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:14.066
connection, it actually wanted to find the human factor. I wanted to explore compassion,

00:17:14.098 --> 00:17:17.766
I wanted to explore different feelings and emotions and be

00:17:17.788 --> 00:17:20.760
vulnerable, whereas in the past it was all around

00:17:21.310 --> 00:17:25.014
right, wrong, black, white, fix, not working, illness

00:17:25.062 --> 00:17:28.586
and things. So I found the last seven years of my life very fulfilling. And

00:17:28.768 --> 00:17:32.494
is that a similar sort of journey that you've discovered with yourself? I love

00:17:32.532 --> 00:17:36.366
that. You're absolutely right. But as someone working in the technical field, I

00:17:36.388 --> 00:17:39.418
imagine precision, finality,

00:17:39.594 --> 00:17:43.326
clarity, absolutes are your world. And

00:17:43.348 --> 00:17:46.866
many ways law is precisely that as well. That's been my own

00:17:46.888 --> 00:17:50.190
journey too. In fact, one of my most favourite stories

00:17:50.270 --> 00:17:53.570
is when I joined my coach training

00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:56.930
programme. One of the master trainers was a man called Mark

00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:00.514
Hempstead, who's sadly passed on. And in my

00:18:00.552 --> 00:18:04.134
conversation with him, I said, you know, I'm a lawyer, I'm trained to be

00:18:04.172 --> 00:18:07.830
neutral. And he had a big laugh about

00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:11.414
lawyers being neutral, because lawyers tend to be very

00:18:11.452 --> 00:18:15.114
opinionated and whole. You're absolutely know, it's either

00:18:15.152 --> 00:18:18.858
this or that. And I often think of that twinkle in his eye when I

00:18:18.864 --> 00:18:22.534
think about how far I've come in that

00:18:22.592 --> 00:18:26.190
ability to hold space for myself and for others,

00:18:26.260 --> 00:18:30.014
that more than one thing could be true at all times. The world is

00:18:30.052 --> 00:18:33.806
full of such complex and wicked problems, isn't it, joanne, you

00:18:33.828 --> 00:18:37.426
and I could both be working on the same problem. You're addressing a

00:18:37.448 --> 00:18:41.074
certain aspect of it. I'm addressing a certain aspect of it. My

00:18:41.112 --> 00:18:44.754
solution might harm yours and vice versa. Yet both of

00:18:44.792 --> 00:18:48.054
us could be absolutely well intentioned and focused on

00:18:48.092 --> 00:18:51.734
solving the exact same problem. And

00:18:51.772 --> 00:18:55.000
therefore, what do we do then? It's about

00:18:55.530 --> 00:18:59.030
embracing the fact that both things can be true at the same time, and

00:18:59.100 --> 00:19:02.794
that's the complexity all around us. And we need to find ways in which we

00:19:02.832 --> 00:19:06.490
can collaborate and work across silos and solve those wicked problems

00:19:06.560 --> 00:19:10.282
and understand. Sometimes it's about priorities and sometimes

00:19:10.336 --> 00:19:14.046
it's about maybe coming together and addressing something else that both of

00:19:14.068 --> 00:19:17.678
us can agree on. I don't know if you found this when you were

00:19:17.684 --> 00:19:21.166
practising law that people wanted. They wanted an

00:19:21.188 --> 00:19:24.926
answer, they wanted some sort of reassurance that they were right or they were

00:19:24.948 --> 00:19:28.786
wrong, or would this work and same in my It career. People came

00:19:28.808 --> 00:19:31.266
to me and they wanted me to be the expert, they wanted me to have

00:19:31.288 --> 00:19:34.994
the answer. And there's an immense amount of

00:19:35.032 --> 00:19:38.834
pressure to have to be the answer to

00:19:38.872 --> 00:19:42.534
everyone's problems, to be able to resolve things. And I often say to people,

00:19:42.732 --> 00:19:46.502
the reason it's a problem is because it's a problem. If it wasn't a problem,

00:19:46.556 --> 00:19:50.358
I'd have solved it instantly, I'd have fixed it, I'd have come up

00:19:50.364 --> 00:19:53.298
with the answer, but the fact of the problem is I had to investigate it,

00:19:53.324 --> 00:19:56.298
I have to think about it. That's not necessarily a now thing, it could be

00:19:56.304 --> 00:19:59.770
a week thing, could be a month thing. And I appreciate you want answers quickly,

00:19:59.840 --> 00:20:03.150
but problems are problems, they've been resolved.

00:20:03.570 --> 00:20:07.406
And I learned in my electronics career background, you can

00:20:07.428 --> 00:20:10.814
fault find, you can half split, you can narrow down the root of the problem

00:20:10.852 --> 00:20:14.574
to left half or right half, then left half or right half,

00:20:14.612 --> 00:20:18.354
then left half, so you're narrowing the scope down. But with people

00:20:18.392 --> 00:20:22.020
you can't always do that. You have to go into them with

00:20:22.550 --> 00:20:26.066
vulnerability and compassion. You have to go in with not knowing the

00:20:26.088 --> 00:20:29.910
answer and almost going in, not

00:20:29.980 --> 00:20:33.490
needing to find out the answer, just help people down a path.

00:20:33.650 --> 00:20:37.094
I think that's true in the Dei space as well, that there's no

00:20:37.132 --> 00:20:40.842
absolute solutions, just a best

00:20:40.896 --> 00:20:44.314
journey that everyone can get behind and buy

00:20:44.352 --> 00:20:48.058
into. Yes, and as an advisor, I find that

00:20:48.224 --> 00:20:52.022
the answer of it depends is the least popular

00:20:52.086 --> 00:20:55.866
answer. Nobody wants to hear it. Can you just get to it? Don't

00:20:55.898 --> 00:20:59.726
Hemmen horn, don't be stuck in analysis paralysis. But I

00:20:59.748 --> 00:21:03.010
think that due diligence of looking at everything

00:21:03.080 --> 00:21:06.270
painstakingly, considering all potential

00:21:06.350 --> 00:21:09.902
pitfalls, all perspectives, is absolutely vital.

00:21:09.966 --> 00:21:13.794
That's precisely the space I occupy. That's my personality as well.

00:21:13.832 --> 00:21:17.430
I am very marks data driven, but what I find,

00:21:17.500 --> 00:21:20.040
and this has been my journey, Joe, is

00:21:21.290 --> 00:21:24.374
you might do all of your entire process,

00:21:24.492 --> 00:21:27.142
but you need to also be

00:21:27.196 --> 00:21:30.458
informed by a very clear

00:21:30.624 --> 00:21:34.106
understanding of who you want to be, what you want your

00:21:34.128 --> 00:21:37.830
legacy to be. There are many situations

00:21:37.910 --> 00:21:41.674
in life and work where there are no clear answers and then

00:21:41.712 --> 00:21:45.006
you need to be informed by what can I live with? I need to make

00:21:45.028 --> 00:21:48.842
a tough choice now as a leader, as a manager, as a person responsible

00:21:48.906 --> 00:21:52.606
for something, and there are no clear answers, I need to make a

00:21:52.628 --> 00:21:56.398
call. But the call needs to be made on what are your values?

00:21:56.494 --> 00:21:59.986
At the end of the day, looking back, are you going to be satisfied that

00:22:00.088 --> 00:22:03.474
you did the best you could? It might fail, but if

00:22:03.512 --> 00:22:07.302
you proceeded based on a certain set of values you've thought

00:22:07.356 --> 00:22:11.142
through, then likely you're going to regret less in life.

00:22:11.196 --> 00:22:14.598
And that's very important. I find that missing often.

00:22:14.764 --> 00:22:18.598
Perhaps one of the most important things all of us can invest

00:22:18.684 --> 00:22:22.506
in is surfacing and unearthing and holding close to

00:22:22.528 --> 00:22:26.294
us those values and also acknowledge that maybe those values

00:22:26.342 --> 00:22:30.042
evolve as they should. What your value system? What my value system

00:22:30.096 --> 00:22:33.774
was when I was in my teens is certainly not what it is now

00:22:33.812 --> 00:22:37.566
as a person with some life experience and some travels and some education,

00:22:37.668 --> 00:22:41.054
and I think we should all continue to evolve. I

00:22:41.092 --> 00:22:44.818
travelled quite a lot my younger life. I worked for

00:22:44.824 --> 00:22:48.434
a global bank and I was privileged to be able to

00:22:48.472 --> 00:22:51.970
travel to their offices around the world

00:22:52.120 --> 00:22:55.258
from west coast of America,

00:22:55.374 --> 00:22:59.142
california, north and South California east Coast, New York,

00:22:59.196 --> 00:23:02.434
Miami, Cross, Europe, Far East, Hong Kong,

00:23:02.482 --> 00:23:05.814
Singapore. So I travel quite extensively. Also in

00:23:05.852 --> 00:23:09.658
my social life, I was a member of a club and we regularly used to

00:23:09.664 --> 00:23:12.934
have mainly European meetings and further

00:23:12.982 --> 00:23:16.134
afield where I would stay in people's

00:23:16.182 --> 00:23:19.958
homes for a long weekend, maybe four or five days,

00:23:20.144 --> 00:23:22.910
meet their children, eat around their table,

00:23:23.730 --> 00:23:27.566
sit around their fire in the back garden, in

00:23:27.588 --> 00:23:30.590
their hot tub in Iceland or somewhere.

00:23:31.010 --> 00:23:34.274
So you get to experience all these different cultures and that is

00:23:34.312 --> 00:23:37.842
so enriching to

00:23:37.976 --> 00:23:41.746
be invited to someone else's home as a

00:23:41.768 --> 00:23:45.198
member of their family for several days and it's a

00:23:45.224 --> 00:23:48.854
privilege to enjoy their hospitality and culture and learn so much from

00:23:48.892 --> 00:23:52.530
them. Spot on. One of my current favourite

00:23:52.610 --> 00:23:55.894
metaphors is I'm new in

00:23:55.932 --> 00:23:59.190
Europe, so this is my third continent I'm living and working

00:23:59.260 --> 00:24:03.034
in. And so one of the things

00:24:03.072 --> 00:24:06.794
I learned early on, it's probably apocryphal, but

00:24:06.992 --> 00:24:10.510
apparently the Canadian Inuit have over

00:24:10.580 --> 00:24:14.350
50 words to describe various forms of snow

00:24:15.170 --> 00:24:18.986
and that's because they have a lot of snow that they encounter

00:24:19.018 --> 00:24:22.754
in their daily lives and that's the vocabulary they

00:24:22.792 --> 00:24:26.590
need. And the Dutch, by popular

00:24:26.750 --> 00:24:30.530
pop culture, have more words for bad

00:24:30.600 --> 00:24:34.194
weather than all the words in innovate culture. And

00:24:34.232 --> 00:24:37.602
so it may or may not be true, but it tickles

00:24:37.666 --> 00:24:41.398
me because I think that is so important. To understand

00:24:41.484 --> 00:24:45.190
a person, to truly understand and know a person,

00:24:45.340 --> 00:24:49.118
I think we need to understand what are their challenges,

00:24:49.234 --> 00:24:52.966
what are their priorities, what is it that they are currently focused

00:24:52.998 --> 00:24:56.842
on? And so, as much as all of us are working these

00:24:56.896 --> 00:25:00.306
days, perhaps in global organisations with global

00:25:00.358 --> 00:25:03.710
vision, that local sensitivity in understanding

00:25:04.370 --> 00:25:08.094
what shoes a person's walking in, what is their vocabulary, what

00:25:08.132 --> 00:25:11.630
do they need the most nuance in their life

00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:15.518
for? And knowing that it varies what I have the

00:25:15.524 --> 00:25:18.914
most vocabulary for, probably your vocabulary is very focused on something

00:25:18.952 --> 00:25:22.594
entirely different. And to truly know you and understand you, I need to get

00:25:22.632 --> 00:25:26.230
that. Yeah. As you say, this is now your third continent.

00:25:27.130 --> 00:25:30.774
You must have picked up a whole breadth and

00:25:30.812 --> 00:25:33.590
depth of cultural

00:25:34.250 --> 00:25:37.894
information. Food, you say, the

00:25:37.932 --> 00:25:41.274
weather, the way people interact with each other, how they greet each

00:25:41.312 --> 00:25:44.474
other, personal space. There's a whole lot of different

00:25:44.512 --> 00:25:48.134
dynamics, more than just plain language,

00:25:48.182 --> 00:25:51.120
isn't there, around communication and being together?

00:25:51.970 --> 00:25:55.040
I don't know about breadth and depth, but certainly

00:25:55.570 --> 00:25:59.114
greater humility around the fact that there's

00:25:59.162 --> 00:26:02.890
so much we do not know, so much that it's so very

00:26:02.980 --> 00:26:06.434
easy to not realise, not sense, not be

00:26:06.472 --> 00:26:10.206
sensitive to, and how important it is to keep your eyes wide

00:26:10.238 --> 00:26:13.746
open. That sense of learning and humility is

00:26:13.768 --> 00:26:17.474
certainly what I'm more and more

00:26:17.512 --> 00:26:21.122
growing towards. From a relatively fresh

00:26:21.186 --> 00:26:24.902
perspective, I do notice that for me,

00:26:24.956 --> 00:26:28.378
one obvious change as a practitioner is in the US.

00:26:28.464 --> 00:26:32.250
It's pretty forefront of conversations and

00:26:32.320 --> 00:26:35.546
consciousness, the language and

00:26:35.568 --> 00:26:39.274
vocabulary and sensitivity around inclusion, because there

00:26:39.312 --> 00:26:42.774
has been a lot of public discourse. Now people

00:26:42.832 --> 00:26:46.382
may fall at any end of the spectrum. There's a whole

00:26:46.436 --> 00:26:50.094
range of reactions and thoughts and opinions about it, even

00:26:50.132 --> 00:26:53.570
within United States. But certainly at the forefront of

00:26:53.720 --> 00:26:57.554
that conversation, there public discourse. In Asia, for

00:26:57.592 --> 00:27:00.580
instance, there is a greater sense of

00:27:01.190 --> 00:27:04.942
we are a little different. We know, we understand in a certain

00:27:05.016 --> 00:27:08.806
sense, but also because in the Global South there

00:27:08.828 --> 00:27:12.518
is a great motivation for getting

00:27:12.604 --> 00:27:16.054
with the rest of the world aspirational interest

00:27:16.172 --> 00:27:19.590
in ensuring we correct what needs to be corrected,

00:27:19.750 --> 00:27:23.222
anxiety and obviously worry about holding our identity

00:27:23.286 --> 00:27:26.842
secure. But certainly let's get a move on.

00:27:26.976 --> 00:27:30.810
And because of that motivation, the conversation has trickled absolutely

00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:34.734
into public discourse there as well, joe and that's my observation. These

00:27:34.772 --> 00:27:38.510
conversations are happening, in fact, perhaps even a little bit more

00:27:38.580 --> 00:27:42.014
advanced and more open mindedness in my

00:27:42.052 --> 00:27:45.746
observation, in Asia, having lived there for nearly a decade as well.

00:27:45.848 --> 00:27:49.106
I'm brand new in Europe, and I have to say I've had the fortune of

00:27:49.128 --> 00:27:52.430
meeting many, many wonderful advocates,

00:27:52.510 --> 00:27:56.230
practitioners, allies and amplifiers for dei.

00:27:56.570 --> 00:28:00.022
But my very new

00:28:00.156 --> 00:28:02.440
eyes tell me

00:28:03.530 --> 00:28:07.094
here, there, I think, perhaps is a more

00:28:07.132 --> 00:28:10.922
widespread block between knowing and

00:28:10.976 --> 00:28:14.666
doing. The identity seems to be we are the

00:28:14.688 --> 00:28:18.374
good guys. We have not had historic

00:28:18.422 --> 00:28:22.174
tradition of slavery, we have not had a

00:28:22.212 --> 00:28:25.374
historic tradition of being oppressors, and

00:28:25.412 --> 00:28:28.958
therefore we good guys. We have it

00:28:29.044 --> 00:28:32.542
more sorted. This is not our problem. And with that

00:28:32.596 --> 00:28:36.386
identity, I think, also comes a stubbornness sort of a

00:28:36.408 --> 00:28:40.114
blind spot around curiosity for other

00:28:40.152 --> 00:28:43.602
perspectives. What else can I do? If I hold that I am a very good

00:28:43.656 --> 00:28:47.494
person, a very woke person, a very sorted and inclusive person, then

00:28:47.532 --> 00:28:51.126
perhaps I'm shutting off conversation that's possible around what can I do

00:28:51.148 --> 00:28:54.774
differently? What can I improve more? And that

00:28:54.812 --> 00:28:58.586
is my speaking as a very new person here.

00:28:58.768 --> 00:29:02.394
I would say perhaps that's something we can embrace more, is

00:29:02.512 --> 00:29:05.450
curiosity around what can. That's a very interesting perspective.

00:29:07.390 --> 00:29:11.198
So as a person who's lived in the UK most of

00:29:11.204 --> 00:29:14.830
my life, I'm white, grown up in a fairly

00:29:15.170 --> 00:29:18.798
average family, I don't see myself

00:29:18.884 --> 00:29:22.254
as a colonialist, I don't see myself as an

00:29:22.292 --> 00:29:26.114
invader. I don't see myself as somebody who has gone out into

00:29:26.152 --> 00:29:29.682
the world and destroyed cultures. That's something

00:29:29.736 --> 00:29:33.570
that happened in the history books. That's something that happened by somebody else.

00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:36.806
Whereas I think what I'm picking up on what you're saying is when you're in

00:29:36.828 --> 00:29:40.054
the Global South, you're living with the impact of

00:29:40.092 --> 00:29:43.606
colonialism and that echo is still there,

00:29:43.708 --> 00:29:47.400
even three, 4500 years later. So

00:29:47.770 --> 00:29:51.050
when you come to the Global North,

00:29:51.470 --> 00:29:54.938
you're seeing a kind of a detachment from that reality. But when you're in the

00:29:54.944 --> 00:29:58.454
Global South, you're living with that day to day. That's beautifully

00:29:58.502 --> 00:30:01.260
put, and thank you for saying that.

00:30:02.190 --> 00:30:05.858
The thing the disconnect from the acknowledgement

00:30:05.894 --> 00:30:09.562
of power and privilege, it's so subtle, it's practically

00:30:09.626 --> 00:30:13.146
invisible. And I think it becomes very easy to have a big blind

00:30:13.178 --> 00:30:16.610
spot around it. And perhaps the most Dutch example I can give

00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:20.146
is the Dutch are great cyclers. They

00:30:20.168 --> 00:30:23.874
cycle everywhere. And when we were new here in the

00:30:23.912 --> 00:30:27.686
summer, we all stepped out and said, let's go cycling together. It's a

00:30:27.708 --> 00:30:31.478
beautiful family activity. And on the way out,

00:30:31.564 --> 00:30:34.994
Joanne, we were cycling. It was gorgeous. Dutch

00:30:35.042 --> 00:30:38.662
countryside is stunning in its beauty. Flowers everywhere,

00:30:38.726 --> 00:30:42.346
meadows, sheeps, horses. Such a country focused on

00:30:42.368 --> 00:30:46.060
sustainability. It was beautiful and joyous. And about

00:30:46.510 --> 00:30:50.186
halfway through our journey, we said, let's turn back. And all of a

00:30:50.208 --> 00:30:53.786
sudden I was huffing and puffing and I couldn't focus on any of the

00:30:53.808 --> 00:30:57.566
countryside. And all I was thinking about was like, my God, I

00:30:57.588 --> 00:31:01.166
suck at cycling. This is so hard. I don't think I can cycle all the

00:31:01.188 --> 00:31:05.026
way back home. And I think the difference simply was that when we were on

00:31:05.048 --> 00:31:08.654
our outward journey, the breeze was aiding our journey

00:31:08.702 --> 00:31:12.398
forward, and that was invisible. The winds

00:31:12.414 --> 00:31:16.194
were invisible to me. They were pleasant. It was a beautiful summer breeze. But

00:31:16.232 --> 00:31:19.878
the whole system was aiding me in moving forward. And I was able to

00:31:19.884 --> 00:31:23.506
focus on the beauty of the world and my family and my lovely

00:31:23.538 --> 00:31:27.186
little boys and just how good this all feels.

00:31:27.298 --> 00:31:30.794
But the minute the system was working against me, it was

00:31:30.832 --> 00:31:34.666
equally invisible. But I couldn't focus on anything. All I could

00:31:34.688 --> 00:31:38.410
focus on was my hardship. And that's very true of

00:31:38.560 --> 00:31:41.894
folks from the Global South, folks from any sort of non

00:31:41.942 --> 00:31:45.642
dominant identity trying to operate

00:31:45.786 --> 00:31:49.614
in workplaces, in cultures where they do not have

00:31:49.812 --> 00:31:53.374
that invisible systemic support, power and

00:31:53.412 --> 00:31:57.106
privilege. It's invisible to both of us. But if you

00:31:57.128 --> 00:32:00.562
have an advantage, you're able to enjoy and

00:32:00.616 --> 00:32:04.434
navigate the workplace in a way I simply cannot. And I might look

00:32:04.472 --> 00:32:08.038
like I'm preoccupied with my uniqueness, my difference,

00:32:08.204 --> 00:32:11.714
and how that makes my life difficult. It might seem like it's a loser

00:32:11.762 --> 00:32:15.350
attitude and victim attitude, but it's because nothing

00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:19.158
else is possible for me while the system is making it subtly

00:32:19.254 --> 00:32:22.842
invisibly harder for me to be part of it

00:32:22.896 --> 00:32:26.646
and navigate it with the same ease and confidence. That's

00:32:26.678 --> 00:32:30.478
that subtle difference between knowing and doing. Because

00:32:30.564 --> 00:32:34.126
in many workplaces, in many leadership, let's say a

00:32:34.148 --> 00:32:37.610
table, if we use that frequent dei

00:32:37.690 --> 00:32:41.454
metaphor, I'm at the table. But I certainly

00:32:41.572 --> 00:32:45.214
feel like I'm an invited guest. I'm there

00:32:45.332 --> 00:32:49.122
at your largest. This is not my table. I better

00:32:49.176 --> 00:32:52.994
watch it. I better watch my language. I better be watchful about what

00:32:53.032 --> 00:32:56.694
I need to and how I need to navigate it, because it

00:32:56.732 --> 00:33:00.518
might be rescinded. That invitation might be rescinded any moment,

00:33:00.604 --> 00:33:03.240
one false step. How does then

00:33:04.170 --> 00:33:07.906
being strategic, being. More rising

00:33:07.938 --> 00:33:11.066
above myself become possible to me at all. I'm focused on

00:33:11.088 --> 00:33:14.806
survival. It's

00:33:14.838 --> 00:33:18.202
that 101 inclusion, 101. All of us

00:33:18.256 --> 00:33:21.326
universally, I think we can say majority of us are working on it

00:33:21.348 --> 00:33:25.018
consciously. But after that basic level of inclusion,

00:33:25.114 --> 00:33:28.160
we now have built a table and invited folks in.

00:33:28.770 --> 00:33:32.334
That next level of inclusion where we focus on

00:33:32.372 --> 00:33:36.062
these subtleties, these nuances, these ways

00:33:36.116 --> 00:33:39.762
in which it's easier for me. It's my stage, my table, my mic,

00:33:39.896 --> 00:33:43.666
versus maybe it's not yours. And you feel very much like a guest. How can

00:33:43.688 --> 00:33:47.446
I make that better? We can be more sensitive to it.

00:33:47.468 --> 00:33:51.266
I think it would be a lovely step forward, a levelling

00:33:51.298 --> 00:33:53.430
up, if you will, on inclusion.

00:33:55.130 --> 00:33:58.906
I love that analogy and obviously

00:33:59.008 --> 00:34:02.726
your real experience of that subtle breeze

00:34:02.758 --> 00:34:06.246
on your back gives you that you're

00:34:06.278 --> 00:34:09.866
unaware of, that subtle aid and boost you're getting.

00:34:10.048 --> 00:34:13.690
But when it's on your front, you become hyper aware

00:34:13.850 --> 00:34:17.166
that the same breeze that helps you is the same breeze that oppresses you, the

00:34:17.188 --> 00:34:20.954
same breeze that stops you succeeding, makes your journey

00:34:21.002 --> 00:34:24.654
harder. So if two people cycling in different

00:34:24.692 --> 00:34:28.206
directions for the same breeze have a different experience, and that's a really powerful

00:34:28.238 --> 00:34:31.746
analogy, and I love the way that you brought that out there.

00:34:31.928 --> 00:34:35.590
You talked about this table, it's not your table, it's somebody else's table.

00:34:36.570 --> 00:34:39.960
And that's the challenge, I find, is that whether we're talking about

00:34:40.970 --> 00:34:44.498
female empowerment, whether we're talking about antiracism anti

00:34:44.514 --> 00:34:47.670
Semitism, whatever, we're talking about ableism.

00:34:48.170 --> 00:34:51.354
The challenge is that the table has been

00:34:51.392 --> 00:34:55.082
built and constructed and hosted by people who hold

00:34:55.136 --> 00:34:58.970
power and privilege in some way, whether they're white, whether they're men, whether

00:34:59.040 --> 00:35:02.606
able bodied, whether they're Christian or non religious, whatever it may

00:35:02.628 --> 00:35:05.630
be. That's who owns the table.

00:35:07.810 --> 00:35:11.646
And what you're saying is the day will come where people who

00:35:11.668 --> 00:35:15.290
are marginalised people have taken their power. They've put the

00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:18.210
wind behind them, if you like, so they're getting the amplification,

00:35:19.430 --> 00:35:23.234
then the people who used to hold the power and privilege will be either

00:35:23.272 --> 00:35:27.058
a guest at the table or they won't come to

00:35:27.064 --> 00:35:30.662
the table at all because they're not used to having those conversations from a position

00:35:30.716 --> 00:35:34.534
of marginalisation. So how do we get people who

00:35:34.572 --> 00:35:38.082
are used to power and privilege to recognise

00:35:38.146 --> 00:35:41.962
that and to want to have conversations? It is very

00:35:42.016 --> 00:35:45.366
hard. I think it takes a tremendous amount of discipline

00:35:45.478 --> 00:35:49.274
and self reflection to be mindful, even, because it

00:35:49.312 --> 00:35:52.558
can be so subtle and so seductive to fall

00:35:52.644 --> 00:35:56.222
into the usual it feels familiar, that

00:35:56.276 --> 00:35:59.946
usual pace of things. I was advising a global organisation

00:36:00.058 --> 00:36:03.438
where there was a huge drive to bring in more

00:36:03.524 --> 00:36:06.930
global diversity at their topmost leadership level.

00:36:07.080 --> 00:36:10.526
And what I found was that they kept

00:36:10.558 --> 00:36:14.274
asking, Why are we not succeeding? Why do we have such a high attrition rate?

00:36:14.392 --> 00:36:17.958
Why do folks fail to apply even when opportunity

00:36:18.044 --> 00:36:21.894
is given at the top most leadership level? And it was because folks had been

00:36:21.932 --> 00:36:25.206
there for the longest time. They were used to

00:36:25.308 --> 00:36:28.902
hyper effective. I understand you completely because

00:36:28.956 --> 00:36:32.634
we've walked the same path, we've had the same education, we speak

00:36:32.672 --> 00:36:36.346
the same language, we know the organisation that we have built from

00:36:36.368 --> 00:36:40.202
scratch, inside out, therefore we have a short hand. It's almost

00:36:40.256 --> 00:36:43.626
like I can look at you and you understand instantly what I'm

00:36:43.658 --> 00:36:46.954
thinking, but someone else from a very distinct,

00:36:47.082 --> 00:36:50.734
different experience, different skill set, different way of

00:36:50.772 --> 00:36:54.366
communicating, it just feels slower. And it's like they

00:36:54.388 --> 00:36:57.886
don't get it. And what they say, I get it, I've known it. I've known

00:36:57.918 --> 00:37:01.042
it for years. And so when we do that, when we do that

00:37:01.096 --> 00:37:04.514
dismissive, fine, but this is slower and this is not

00:37:04.552 --> 00:37:08.258
effective. We are just seeking the comfort

00:37:08.354 --> 00:37:12.166
of what is familiar to us. But the impact of

00:37:12.188 --> 00:37:15.926
that dismissal can be tremendous on those who

00:37:15.948 --> 00:37:19.638
have been newly invited to that space. And that's

00:37:19.734 --> 00:37:23.194
really, really important to pay attention to. So what can

00:37:23.312 --> 00:37:27.050
folks who currently do have those dominant

00:37:27.550 --> 00:37:31.274
positions, whether it was conscious or

00:37:31.312 --> 00:37:34.698
not? If you observe that there are folks,

00:37:34.794 --> 00:37:38.526
perhaps who are new to the table who might feel they are

00:37:38.628 --> 00:37:42.366
invited, they might be suffering from impostor syndrome or any other

00:37:42.468 --> 00:37:46.242
kinds of nervousness or anxiety around, maybe they don't quite

00:37:46.296 --> 00:37:49.874
fully belong in that room. What can you do? Be more

00:37:49.912 --> 00:37:53.458
mindful about the words and actions. If there is

00:37:53.544 --> 00:37:57.206
a conversation around a decision, an exploration of

00:37:57.228 --> 00:38:00.614
an idea, brainstorming of any kind, let the other

00:38:00.652 --> 00:38:03.640
folks share their opinions before

00:38:04.170 --> 00:38:07.614
the folks currently holding

00:38:07.762 --> 00:38:11.530
the familiar positions speak. I have seen many different

00:38:11.600 --> 00:38:15.446
mechanisms being employed effectively, joanne, for instance,

00:38:15.558 --> 00:38:19.238
when you're voting on something, let even the unpopular

00:38:19.334 --> 00:38:23.082
choices be populated by the support of the leaders. For example,

00:38:23.136 --> 00:38:26.590
if you are leading my team and there is an unpopular choice to be currently

00:38:26.660 --> 00:38:30.474
considering, if you give it support, whether or not you believe in it, it encourages

00:38:30.522 --> 00:38:34.174
those who are more quiet to speak up. If they're thinking

00:38:34.292 --> 00:38:37.874
that our team is better off choosing an unpopular choice because you made it okay

00:38:37.912 --> 00:38:41.714
to choose that. Another could be say there

00:38:41.752 --> 00:38:45.518
are some quieter voices that tend not to speak up in team meetings.

00:38:45.614 --> 00:38:49.414
You could invite them to send their opinion to you one on one

00:38:49.452 --> 00:38:52.726
via email, or set up some time with you prior to the

00:38:52.748 --> 00:38:56.374
meeting. If they're quieter voices, what can we do to

00:38:56.412 --> 00:38:59.466
bring those to the fore? What can we do to make it okay for them

00:38:59.488 --> 00:39:03.034
to share it? Let's all be watching about how quickly we

00:39:03.072 --> 00:39:06.806
dismiss something. A lot of times now, reverse

00:39:06.838 --> 00:39:10.614
mentoring has become instituted in a lot of organisations. You have a 20

00:39:10.672 --> 00:39:13.758
something intern sitting on the board. Are we

00:39:13.844 --> 00:39:17.470
genuinely encouraging that person to share their perspective,

00:39:17.810 --> 00:39:21.438
or are we being subtly patronising without even realising it

00:39:21.524 --> 00:39:24.994
bad? Good job. How is that going to encourage that person to share

00:39:25.032 --> 00:39:28.818
anything? Or dismissively making a statement of,

00:39:28.904 --> 00:39:32.260
oh, entitled Gen Z or Alpha gen or

00:39:32.790 --> 00:39:36.098
you guys probably know all about it's

00:39:36.194 --> 00:39:39.766
humour, it's easy, it's familiar, it's comforting to

00:39:39.788 --> 00:39:43.526
resort to that quickly. Therefore it takes discipline, for sure, to be

00:39:43.548 --> 00:39:47.394
mindful of it. These may be very, very subtle, but that's

00:39:47.442 --> 00:39:51.226
where we step up from Inclusion 101

00:39:51.328 --> 00:39:54.794
to genuinely levelling up and saying our actions, our

00:39:54.832 --> 00:39:58.474
behaviours, our strategies are now aligned with what we say we

00:39:58.512 --> 00:40:02.222
want. Because as a consultant, as an advisor going into

00:40:02.276 --> 00:40:05.710
organisations, this is my observation. If we hold

00:40:05.780 --> 00:40:09.262
out that we are an inclusive leader, inclusive team,

00:40:09.316 --> 00:40:13.074
inclusive organisation, invite people in and then

00:40:13.112 --> 00:40:16.610
we let them down by all of these subtle,

00:40:17.030 --> 00:40:20.562
subconscious, unconscious behaviours. More

00:40:20.616 --> 00:40:23.950
overtly if there fail to be consequences

00:40:24.110 --> 00:40:27.554
of those leaders who are currently in downward positions, they behave

00:40:27.602 --> 00:40:31.346
badly, they make poor choices, they're not aligned with our stated

00:40:31.378 --> 00:40:35.158
values. And as an organisation, as a team, there

00:40:35.164 --> 00:40:38.422
are no consequences to that. Or

00:40:38.476 --> 00:40:42.294
worse. We let people in and when they speak up, we punish

00:40:42.342 --> 00:40:46.166
them. We punish the whistleblowers in any of these three things, whether it's subtle,

00:40:46.198 --> 00:40:50.006
unconscious or no consequences for behaviour not aligned with our

00:40:50.048 --> 00:40:53.534
stated values, or we punish the whistleblowers for saying the

00:40:53.572 --> 00:40:57.182
uncomfortable thing. All three situations. Two things

00:40:57.236 --> 00:41:00.782
happen. Those voices that are actively trying

00:41:00.916 --> 00:41:04.382
to make the workplace better, they quit, they walk

00:41:04.436 --> 00:41:08.286
out. And those voices that were mastering up the nerve

00:41:08.398 --> 00:41:12.226
to no longer be fence sitters, to no longer be quiet, they will

00:41:12.248 --> 00:41:15.730
go right back into hiding. And that's a dead ecosystem.

00:41:18.730 --> 00:41:22.534
It's a real challenge, though, if you're in the EDI space,

00:41:22.572 --> 00:41:26.310
the dib space, as a practitioner, as an in house

00:41:26.380 --> 00:41:29.820
person, to keep on keeping on.

00:41:30.190 --> 00:41:33.674
It is exhausting because you find that you're always having

00:41:33.712 --> 00:41:37.334
conversations almost every day, trying to enlighten

00:41:37.382 --> 00:41:40.986
people who often don't want to be enlightened, that they

00:41:41.008 --> 00:41:44.698
go, what's wrong? Everything's good. I don't

00:41:44.714 --> 00:41:48.334
see race, I don't see colour, I don't see this. I treat everyone the same,

00:41:48.532 --> 00:41:52.334
missing the sort of nuances of their position, their power,

00:41:52.372 --> 00:41:56.018
as you say, their majority. And

00:41:56.104 --> 00:41:59.778
it does become exhausting. And even though I don't work inside

00:41:59.864 --> 00:42:03.474
corporates that often, just the conversations I have with

00:42:03.512 --> 00:42:06.934
friends, just listening to the attitudes around

00:42:07.132 --> 00:42:10.930
a restaurant table, they're ingrained deeply

00:42:11.010 --> 00:42:14.854
in many people's psyche and lived experience that they

00:42:14.892 --> 00:42:18.486
don't see the world as having a problem. Again,

00:42:18.588 --> 00:42:21.900
you talked earlier about this wind in your face, wind behind you.

00:42:22.670 --> 00:42:25.180
When you've had the wind behind you all the time,

00:42:26.430 --> 00:42:30.266
you think that's the norm, but it is your norm. And the fact

00:42:30.288 --> 00:42:34.046
that other people are struggling the other way, your

00:42:34.068 --> 00:42:37.646
attitude is, well, they have to work harder, or why should I give them,

00:42:37.828 --> 00:42:40.720
why should I sacrifice myself for them?

00:42:41.170 --> 00:42:44.586
So how do we, as practitioners, as dei

00:42:44.618 --> 00:42:48.286
professionals, or anybody out there who's listening, who is wanting

00:42:48.318 --> 00:42:51.954
to change the world for the better, how do we keep up and

00:42:51.992 --> 00:42:55.426
keep on in the face of these challenges all the

00:42:55.448 --> 00:42:59.246
time. That's actually a question that I struggle with

00:42:59.288 --> 00:43:02.806
as well. And so what bubbled up for me, Joanne, when you were

00:43:02.828 --> 00:43:06.534
saying this that's so close to my heart and resonates with what I

00:43:06.572 --> 00:43:10.390
struggle with as well is, Joanne, when you have felt

00:43:10.470 --> 00:43:14.234
exhausted or overwhelmed or asked yourself, this is so

00:43:14.272 --> 00:43:17.754
thankless, why should I even try? Why not go back to a

00:43:17.792 --> 00:43:21.550
safe, highly paying profession of being It consultant?

00:43:22.210 --> 00:43:25.902
When you feel like that, what has given you

00:43:25.956 --> 00:43:29.006
some relief, some

00:43:29.188 --> 00:43:32.586
comfort and some motivation? What has helped you

00:43:32.708 --> 00:43:35.940
recharge your own batteries? I suppose for me,

00:43:37.110 --> 00:43:40.914
I just dig deep into why I do what I

00:43:40.952 --> 00:43:44.354
do. Seven or eight years

00:43:44.392 --> 00:43:47.638
ago, I was the person with the wind on my back,

00:43:47.804 --> 00:43:50.120
cycling with the aid. And

00:43:52.330 --> 00:43:56.114
one event, my gender transition, was my equivalent

00:43:56.162 --> 00:43:59.734
of coming back the other way. And suddenly,

00:43:59.862 --> 00:44:03.660
I'm now facing that wind in my face. I don't understand

00:44:04.030 --> 00:44:07.718
what oppression is, what marginalisation is, what it's

00:44:07.734 --> 00:44:11.450
like to be talked about in a negative

00:44:11.530 --> 00:44:15.280
way or accused of things or judged in a way.

00:44:15.970 --> 00:44:18.510
So what I do is I dig deep.

00:44:20.210 --> 00:44:24.046
I suppose I look back at that pivot point in my life where I

00:44:24.068 --> 00:44:27.906
went from being blind to being awake or woke, whatever you want to call that

00:44:27.928 --> 00:44:31.746
word, to awake to what's going on. And that's why we do

00:44:31.768 --> 00:44:35.418
what we do. That's why I do what I do is once you've

00:44:35.454 --> 00:44:38.600
seen what's going on, once you're aware of what's going on,

00:44:39.770 --> 00:44:43.126
you can't go back. You can't take the other pill and forget it all

00:44:43.148 --> 00:44:46.360
again. You've made

00:44:46.810 --> 00:44:50.140
that choice to expose yourself to what's going on.

00:44:50.590 --> 00:44:54.406
So no matter how exhausting it is, I know it's more exhausting

00:44:54.438 --> 00:44:57.740
for other people who are living it in

00:44:59.070 --> 00:45:02.746
a harder way than I experience it. My life is relatively

00:45:02.778 --> 00:45:06.586
privileged still. I'm still white. I've

00:45:06.618 --> 00:45:10.414
still had a good education. I'm still British. I speak

00:45:10.452 --> 00:45:14.154
the language of my country. I have a house, I have a

00:45:14.212 --> 00:45:17.906
family. I have lots of things of privilege, and

00:45:17.928 --> 00:45:21.394
I have one element of my, if you like, my characteristic, my personality, my

00:45:21.432 --> 00:45:25.166
being, that is not so privileged. There are people

00:45:25.208 --> 00:45:29.026
who have refugees. We have people migrating

00:45:29.058 --> 00:45:32.438
into this country with nothing, not even a pair of

00:45:32.444 --> 00:45:35.926
shoes, not even the language, not even a penny in their

00:45:35.948 --> 00:45:39.482
pocket. They have a far

00:45:39.536 --> 00:45:43.050
tougher time than I will ever experience. And I think

00:45:43.200 --> 00:45:46.902
by being aware and having that compassion, that empathy, that humility,

00:45:46.966 --> 00:45:50.474
all those kind of soft, emotional, intelligence type

00:45:50.512 --> 00:45:54.174
skills, you can't unlearn that. I don't think I can unlearn that.

00:45:54.212 --> 00:45:57.790
And so what keeps me going? Knowing that this

00:45:57.860 --> 00:46:01.438
journey is infinite and there will be bumps on it, but we got

00:46:01.444 --> 00:46:04.980
to keep on keeping on, because if I don't who.

00:46:05.510 --> 00:46:08.926
Beautiful. That's so spot

00:46:08.958 --> 00:46:12.370
on. So you must have noticed

00:46:12.950 --> 00:46:16.006
in your work, over three

00:46:16.028 --> 00:46:19.190
continents, there's obviously a different priority

00:46:19.770 --> 00:46:23.558
in terms of dei work. So dei work

00:46:23.644 --> 00:46:27.014
in India, in the global south, has a different

00:46:27.052 --> 00:46:30.650
priority than maybe in the Netherlands, maybe in New York or

00:46:30.720 --> 00:46:32.170
in North America.

00:46:33.950 --> 00:46:37.638
Racism is big topic. North America

00:46:37.734 --> 00:46:41.518
is it as big in the Netherlands, racism hopefully has

00:46:41.524 --> 00:46:44.880
a different set of connotations. It's more about colonialism, maybe about education

00:46:45.490 --> 00:46:49.246
in India and the south, or gay rights or

00:46:49.268 --> 00:46:50.880
queer rights or things like that.

00:46:52.850 --> 00:46:55.986
We all have different views on it. I remember talking to a person who was

00:46:56.008 --> 00:46:59.842
based in Berlin, and the challenge they have around

00:46:59.896 --> 00:47:03.474
racism is around the large Turkish population they

00:47:03.512 --> 00:47:07.078
have. So it's not around black people, white people,

00:47:07.244 --> 00:47:10.546
it's around racism against the Turkish

00:47:10.578 --> 00:47:14.210
population of Germany. And that's a different perspective.

00:47:14.290 --> 00:47:18.074
I also believe in the Netherlands, the words that Dutch people

00:47:18.112 --> 00:47:21.514
use for black and white have different

00:47:21.552 --> 00:47:25.318
connotations. So white means unwell pasty,

00:47:25.414 --> 00:47:28.602
unhealthy. So they don't talk about black people and white people.

00:47:28.736 --> 00:47:32.286
They use different language. So even the language in our

00:47:32.308 --> 00:47:35.914
dei world is nuanced and the priorities are subtly

00:47:35.962 --> 00:47:39.726
different and the challenges are different across the globe, aren't they? Absolutely.

00:47:39.908 --> 00:47:42.000
I think it is very

00:47:43.110 --> 00:47:46.210
integral to the culture, the ethos,

00:47:46.630 --> 00:47:49.986
the philosophy of people towards

00:47:50.088 --> 00:47:53.826
life. And so, for instance, having lived in

00:47:53.848 --> 00:47:57.078
Singapore, it was very much a striver culture. Work

00:47:57.164 --> 00:48:00.774
hard, martyr yourself at work. If

00:48:00.812 --> 00:48:04.374
you stay till 08:00, Joanne, then I'm going to stay

00:48:04.412 --> 00:48:08.086
till 930 to prove how sincere I am and how hardworking I

00:48:08.108 --> 00:48:11.930
am. And it's infectious, that

00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.770
attitude of strive hard and keep up.

00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:19.754
And so each culture is different. For example, in

00:48:19.792 --> 00:48:23.486
Indonesia, they have very much the approach that

00:48:23.588 --> 00:48:27.114
it's a family, the way they eat, it's

00:48:27.162 --> 00:48:30.894
communal eating, and that culture is everyone's family.

00:48:31.092 --> 00:48:34.926
And so that attitude that a leader

00:48:34.958 --> 00:48:38.754
of a team is almost like a parent figure for the

00:48:38.792 --> 00:48:42.610
team. It informs the kind of decisions, their attitude towards

00:48:42.680 --> 00:48:46.422
how they make policy choices. And it's very, very

00:48:46.476 --> 00:48:49.574
different from culture where it's very

00:48:49.612 --> 00:48:53.058
individualistic. In Netherlands, for instance, it's very individualistic, it's

00:48:53.074 --> 00:48:56.886
very around individual freedoms and rights. I do what is right for

00:48:56.908 --> 00:49:00.502
me. And so every corporate culture

00:49:00.566 --> 00:49:04.170
is unique to that office in that region. And it's really important

00:49:04.240 --> 00:49:07.514
to recognise that. I had, for

00:49:07.552 --> 00:49:10.846
instance, a global organisation that was

00:49:11.028 --> 00:49:14.062
needing to do some global work on

00:49:14.116 --> 00:49:17.694
inclusion. And one of the plaintiff voices from

00:49:17.732 --> 00:49:21.066
Asia was it's a peak period.

00:49:21.258 --> 00:49:24.674
Everybody is working overtime, some of the places we

00:49:24.712 --> 00:49:28.434
live, stepping out as a female or any

00:49:28.472 --> 00:49:32.290
other vulnerable identity, late night

00:49:32.440 --> 00:49:36.022
to take a long public transport, commute back home is

00:49:36.076 --> 00:49:39.814
unsafe. And in this time, if you say

00:49:39.852 --> 00:49:43.350
we're going to spend a day learning about Martin Luther King

00:49:43.770 --> 00:49:47.574
and the history of racism in America, this

00:49:47.612 --> 00:49:51.402
is not relevant to where I live and it is taking

00:49:51.456 --> 00:49:55.206
me away from a very critical period. I'm

00:49:55.238 --> 00:49:58.922
not going to get any time off for this. I'm not going to get any

00:49:58.976 --> 00:50:02.726
leeway around my deliverables. You've made me unsafe, you've

00:50:02.758 --> 00:50:06.558
stressed me out even more and it's not even relevant to me. Spend a

00:50:06.564 --> 00:50:10.318
day studying the history of racism in another country, in the other end of

00:50:10.324 --> 00:50:13.982
the world, and this is a reality. We need to come up

00:50:14.036 --> 00:50:17.586
with ways in which the work we are doing is relevant to the

00:50:17.608 --> 00:50:21.410
people we are trying to impact. In another instance, I was

00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:25.054
advising an embassy, they were all talking about unconscious

00:50:25.102 --> 00:50:28.610
bias and the security person was sitting at the same table

00:50:28.690 --> 00:50:32.246
as a diplomat. And security person said, I'm holding a

00:50:32.268 --> 00:50:36.066
gun and standing guard outside the embassy

00:50:36.178 --> 00:50:39.770
of a foreign country in my home country. When someone

00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:43.466
approaches the compound rapidly, I have a

00:50:43.488 --> 00:50:47.002
split second to decide. Now, I cannot spend ten

00:50:47.056 --> 00:50:50.618
minutes, kg, as you're suggesting, letting the fast

00:50:50.704 --> 00:50:54.446
thought go by and the slow thinking kick in. I need to make a

00:50:54.468 --> 00:50:58.062
split second decision because my job and the lives of everyone I'm guarding depend

00:50:58.116 --> 00:51:01.754
on it. And therefore we cannot have blanket

00:51:01.882 --> 00:51:05.566
training programmes and blanket advice and mechanisms.

00:51:05.598 --> 00:51:09.442
We need to be sensitive to the context of that particular person, their

00:51:09.496 --> 00:51:13.326
function, their level, their priorities, their deliverables,

00:51:13.438 --> 00:51:16.822
their geographic location, their cultural influences. It's so

00:51:16.876 --> 00:51:20.434
subtle and so varied and. That'S where someone's

00:51:20.482 --> 00:51:24.230
ingrained bias becomes amplified

00:51:24.730 --> 00:51:28.394
because they don't have the luxury or privilege, as

00:51:28.432 --> 00:51:32.074
you say, to slow think. You are reacting in the moment. And

00:51:32.112 --> 00:51:35.818
that's where our ingrained biases exist, those in the

00:51:35.824 --> 00:51:39.606
moment decisions. So someone's skin colour, someone's

00:51:39.638 --> 00:51:42.702
gender, someone's just

00:51:42.756 --> 00:51:45.470
persona, their accent,

00:51:46.290 --> 00:51:49.966
those drive, those instant decisions based on

00:51:49.988 --> 00:51:52.560
that person's ingrained bias. And

00:51:53.670 --> 00:51:56.260
that puts a perspective. It's different on

00:51:57.350 --> 00:52:00.834
how people, their personal safety, their motivation, their

00:52:00.872 --> 00:52:04.674
drivers to protect themselves will kick in. Whereas we, as

00:52:04.712 --> 00:52:08.526
dei practitioners, in most organisations, we do talk about slowing

00:52:08.558 --> 00:52:12.374
thinking down, bringing it to the prefrontal cortex, we talk about taking

00:52:12.412 --> 00:52:16.166
it away from our reptilian brain, but that

00:52:16.188 --> 00:52:19.954
is not a luxury that everybody has. That's a very interesting thought. And

00:52:20.012 --> 00:52:23.514
as a person who works, and oftentimes my lens is informed by

00:52:23.552 --> 00:52:27.302
compliance and risk assessment. If you think about whistleblowers,

00:52:27.366 --> 00:52:31.126
people in the ecosystem speaking up for what's right or flagging

00:52:31.158 --> 00:52:34.974
something that's going wrong, that's dysfunctional, the weight on that

00:52:35.012 --> 00:52:38.782
person and the way that person assesses their ability and willingness to speak

00:52:38.836 --> 00:52:42.478
up depends on what risks they are undertaking and

00:52:42.564 --> 00:52:46.354
what they feel the system will do to them after. If you are

00:52:46.472 --> 00:52:50.194
a person who is just feeling lucky to have that job, who

00:52:50.232 --> 00:52:53.826
needs that job to make ends meet, to pay the rent cheque,

00:52:53.928 --> 00:52:57.538
to provide food for the family, if you have responsibilities,

00:52:57.634 --> 00:53:01.426
then chances are you're going to turn a blind eye

00:53:01.458 --> 00:53:05.110
because you feel that system will not provide

00:53:05.180 --> 00:53:08.966
any consequences for the person who has been flagged or the act that

00:53:08.988 --> 00:53:12.618
is being flagged. Rather, the person who's speaking up will be punished. And we have

00:53:12.624 --> 00:53:16.442
to be sensitive about that. It's very easy to tell that

00:53:16.576 --> 00:53:20.346
single mom who needs that job very badly, well, why didn't you

00:53:20.368 --> 00:53:23.834
speak up? Why did you put up with it? Why did you turn a blind

00:53:23.882 --> 00:53:27.358
eye? Well, she didn't have a choice. Well, she perceived that she do not have

00:53:27.364 --> 00:53:30.734
a choice if we sensitive to that

00:53:30.932 --> 00:53:34.766
and find ways in which we can make that okay, level the playing

00:53:34.798 --> 00:53:38.562
field, so to speak, if we truly want it. And there's so many

00:53:38.616 --> 00:53:42.030
disadvantages to having dysfunctional workplaces

00:53:42.190 --> 00:53:45.926
where people in the system do not feel empowered to speak up, to

00:53:45.948 --> 00:53:49.590
flag what's going wrong. We've seen again and again, right,

00:53:49.660 --> 00:53:53.366
Joanne, the submarine that exploded close to

00:53:53.388 --> 00:53:57.142
Titanic, there were voices along the way

00:53:57.276 --> 00:54:00.810
throughout the process of creating that vehicle that

00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:04.650
said, this is something is terribly wrong. It's not going to work.

00:54:04.720 --> 00:54:08.074
They were silenced. The same thing happened with many space

00:54:08.192 --> 00:54:11.946
exploration projects as well. Billions of dollars were lost. I'm sure

00:54:11.968 --> 00:54:15.678
you know this example very well because engineers had spoken up,

00:54:15.764 --> 00:54:19.434
had said, this is not going to work. The mechanism is faulty, it's

00:54:19.482 --> 00:54:23.098
vulnerable, and they were told to shut up because billions were

00:54:23.124 --> 00:54:26.740
at stake and there's a deadline to be met, and please stop

00:54:27.110 --> 00:54:30.834
quibbling about small details that nobody cares about. And

00:54:30.872 --> 00:54:34.686
then the end result is tremendous, catastrophic loss

00:54:34.718 --> 00:54:38.466
to everybody in the whole project. Yeah, that's

00:54:38.498 --> 00:54:42.278
so true. And I think one thing the airline industry has learned over the

00:54:42.284 --> 00:54:45.974
years is this radical candle where you do

00:54:46.012 --> 00:54:47.590
speak up, you do challenge

00:54:49.850 --> 00:54:53.692
it's a different culture. Whereas we look at some cultures, as you say, it's a

00:54:53.692 --> 00:54:57.466
about book. We're hiding oppressing, keeping it down, because how can

00:54:57.488 --> 00:55:00.266
we be seen to be failing? We have to achieve. We have to hit that

00:55:00.288 --> 00:55:04.126
goal at any cost. Whereas the airline industry has

00:55:04.148 --> 00:55:07.866
probably learnt that it can't do that anymore, and it's

00:55:07.898 --> 00:55:11.706
safer now than it's ever been, because people call it out and they are listened

00:55:11.738 --> 00:55:15.378
to. And I think that's really important in the HR, in the

00:55:15.384 --> 00:55:19.198
people space. It's giving people that psychological safety,

00:55:19.374 --> 00:55:22.994
knowing they will be heard, and it will be actioned not

00:55:23.032 --> 00:55:26.242
buried. I'm a great

00:55:26.296 --> 00:55:30.018
believer in the fact that there is no such thing as a legal entity. I'm

00:55:30.034 --> 00:55:33.702
a lawyer. I know that there is a legal entity, there is a corporation, but

00:55:33.756 --> 00:55:36.930
it's comprised of people. And therefore

00:55:37.090 --> 00:55:40.934
my comfort level with conflict, the way I respond

00:55:40.982 --> 00:55:44.602
to conflict, the way I respond to a difficult conversation, the way I

00:55:44.656 --> 00:55:48.090
communicate when situations are awkward or uncomfortable,

00:55:48.430 --> 00:55:51.934
absolutely informs the culture. It doesn't matter if I'm the

00:55:51.972 --> 00:55:55.246
boss, if I'm an underling, whatever my position in

00:55:55.268 --> 00:55:58.830
hierarchy might be. There is much to be

00:55:58.900 --> 00:56:02.358
acknowledged about the power of a single person and therefore

00:56:02.474 --> 00:56:06.178
understanding myself, understanding what triggers me. What's my response to

00:56:06.184 --> 00:56:09.474
conflict? How do I choose to communicate? My

00:56:09.512 --> 00:56:12.974
difficulty, my discomfort, my stance

00:56:13.102 --> 00:56:16.498
on things informs the culture.

00:56:16.674 --> 00:56:20.486
Likewise, the leader has a tremendous responsibility around having

00:56:20.588 --> 00:56:24.406
space for difficult conversations, to engage in conflict in

00:56:24.428 --> 00:56:28.130
productive ways. So you're absolutely right. Radical candour

00:56:28.210 --> 00:56:31.946
and also maybe an understanding of ourselves and how

00:56:31.968 --> 00:56:35.706
we hold that space for difficult conversation. 100%. You

00:56:35.728 --> 00:56:39.466
said right at the beginning about that you don't feel that

00:56:39.488 --> 00:56:42.700
you belong here there.

00:56:43.970 --> 00:56:47.150
So I often talk about the difference between inclusion and belonging.

00:56:47.810 --> 00:56:51.598
What's your take on the difference between inclusion and belonging and how do

00:56:51.604 --> 00:56:55.454
you think you can find the magic of belonging? I think there's

00:56:55.582 --> 00:56:59.086
loads of research on what creates that belonging. It's

00:56:59.118 --> 00:57:02.562
certainly that final step of the pyramid of having

00:57:02.616 --> 00:57:06.466
diversity around the table, having inclusive policies,

00:57:06.578 --> 00:57:10.422
actions, behaviours mechanisms and systems and all

00:57:10.476 --> 00:57:14.246
of that together creates that sense of belonging. For

00:57:14.268 --> 00:57:18.006
me, my experience, personal experience, has been it's fairly straightforward. All of

00:57:18.028 --> 00:57:21.366
us seek that sense of safety. Am I safe

00:57:21.558 --> 00:57:25.354
to be myself with you? Am I safe to speak up my

00:57:25.392 --> 00:57:28.758
truth and disagree with you where it's relevant,

00:57:28.854 --> 00:57:32.542
or am I code switching and masking? And so once

00:57:32.596 --> 00:57:36.126
that sense of safety is established and it's a

00:57:36.148 --> 00:57:39.882
complex, ever evolving thing, isn't it? I have had conversations

00:57:39.946 --> 00:57:43.694
with best friends I've known all my life where I wasn't able

00:57:43.732 --> 00:57:47.346
to provide that psychological safety, because in that instant I got

00:57:47.368 --> 00:57:50.914
triggered and I said something that's not supportive and that's it, it

00:57:50.952 --> 00:57:54.786
fled. There's no longer psychological safety and suddenly we are all armoured up and

00:57:54.808 --> 00:57:58.614
watching carefully around, watching our P's and Q's around each other. That can

00:57:58.652 --> 00:58:02.134
happen in the oldest, most familiar friendships. And so

00:58:02.252 --> 00:58:05.782
let's acknowledge that psychological safety is ever evolving, it's super

00:58:05.836 --> 00:58:09.110
complex and every moment it changes

00:58:09.180 --> 00:58:12.886
shape. Once that's established, then

00:58:12.988 --> 00:58:16.790
if I am able to perform to my best,

00:58:16.860 --> 00:58:20.302
because the systems, the processes, the policies are

00:58:20.356 --> 00:58:23.950
encouraging me, motivating me, supporting me, inspiring me to do my best

00:58:24.020 --> 00:58:27.774
work, and then I feel I'm rewarded for it. I'm seeing,

00:58:27.892 --> 00:58:31.534
I'm acknowledged that I'm sincere, I'm hardworking, I get

00:58:31.572 --> 00:58:35.214
benefits from it, but most of all, feeling a

00:58:35.252 --> 00:58:38.818
deeper sense of purpose, that there is meaning to the work I do

00:58:38.904 --> 00:58:42.466
and it's central to which way the boat is heading. I'm in this

00:58:42.488 --> 00:58:45.470
boat with everybody else. My work is valued,

00:58:45.550 --> 00:58:49.394
supported, rewarded, and we're all heading in the same direction.

00:58:49.522 --> 00:58:52.934
Then all those things come together to create that sense of

00:58:52.972 --> 00:58:56.646
belonging. I think, then I know this is my team, I'm going to fight for

00:58:56.668 --> 00:59:00.378
it. Ultimately, we are doing some good in life. That's my personal experience.

00:59:00.464 --> 00:59:04.154
I think everyone's formula for belonging might vary as

00:59:04.192 --> 00:59:08.010
it should, and we should have conversation. I like that. I like that.

00:59:08.080 --> 00:59:11.374
That's pretty good. I think that for me, that sums up that

00:59:11.412 --> 00:59:15.214
essence. It's being a DeMask feel, that sense

00:59:15.252 --> 00:59:18.622
of relaxedness safety. You say,

00:59:18.756 --> 00:59:21.630
knowing that you're respected and loved

00:59:22.370 --> 00:59:26.190
and that people have your back, those kind of things, all part of that. Yeah.

00:59:26.260 --> 00:59:29.906
Fantastic. Wow. We've been chatting for over an hour. Time has

00:59:29.928 --> 00:59:33.618
flown and we could carry on talking all day, I'm sure. So

00:59:33.784 --> 00:59:37.422
you've written a couple of books, you've got your own organisation

00:59:37.486 --> 00:59:40.326
called The Human Conversation. Tell us more about that, how people can get hold of

00:59:40.348 --> 00:59:44.086
you. I have a website I'm fairly active on, LinkedIn. My

00:59:44.108 --> 00:59:47.686
organisation is called the Human Conversation. I'm based out of

00:59:47.708 --> 00:59:51.034
Amsterdam, but I work across the world, as many of us do.

00:59:51.072 --> 00:59:54.854
Joanne so if you have a need for a leadership

00:59:54.902 --> 00:59:58.346
consultant, an advisor, a coach, a

00:59:58.368 --> 01:00:02.062
trainer, I'm available. Hit me up and look forward to having

01:00:02.116 --> 01:00:05.518
conversations. I have a question for you, if you have the time.

01:00:05.604 --> 01:00:09.294
Joanne yeah, go for it. I was curious about what's one

01:00:09.332 --> 01:00:13.134
thing that you have found evolved. You've evolved

01:00:13.182 --> 01:00:16.594
on your thinking about one topic, where you were

01:00:16.792 --> 01:00:20.402
on one point and then you're like, I'm at a different place on the same

01:00:20.456 --> 01:00:21.540
topic. Now.

01:00:25.370 --> 01:00:28.662
That'S a tricky one to answer, because I've evolved so

01:00:28.716 --> 01:00:32.326
much in my thinking in the last seven or eight

01:00:32.348 --> 01:00:35.480
years. It's hard, I think, to

01:00:36.410 --> 01:00:39.846
put a finger on it. And I

01:00:39.868 --> 01:00:43.658
think the reason I asked you about belonging, I think

01:00:43.824 --> 01:00:47.626
one of the things that I did some self reflection and self analysis on

01:00:47.728 --> 01:00:51.438
was around the sense of belonging and what makes the

01:00:51.444 --> 01:00:54.958
difference between the difference between included and belonging. And

01:00:55.124 --> 01:00:58.574
it started to click into place for me,

01:00:58.772 --> 01:01:02.426
areas of my life where I was included, but I didn't feel

01:01:02.468 --> 01:01:05.970
belonging. And it empowered me to make

01:01:06.040 --> 01:01:09.762
choices, to move on from things

01:01:09.896 --> 01:01:13.666
that didn't make me happy. So, in the green room before, I

01:01:13.688 --> 01:01:17.182
mentioned the Icky guy and the four areas,

01:01:17.326 --> 01:01:20.582
what I'm good at, what the world needs, what I can make money at,

01:01:20.716 --> 01:01:24.326
and the important one for me is what I love. And I

01:01:24.348 --> 01:01:27.922
think what I discovered was belongingness

01:01:28.066 --> 01:01:31.426
in whatever I was doing was part of that. What I love

01:01:31.468 --> 01:01:34.874
doing. If I didn't love it, if it wasn't ingrained in

01:01:34.912 --> 01:01:38.746
me, that

01:01:38.768 --> 01:01:42.002
quadrant became unbalanced. I wasn't

01:01:42.086 --> 01:01:45.822
feeling, no matter how much I was getting paid,

01:01:45.876 --> 01:01:49.614
no matter how much I was good at it, if I didn't love

01:01:49.652 --> 01:01:53.134
it. And I think, so recognising what belonging meant,

01:01:53.262 --> 01:01:56.962
it allowed me to step back and say, this isn't fulfilling me,

01:01:57.096 --> 01:02:00.754
this isn't making my life better. I am performing, I

01:02:00.792 --> 01:02:03.982
am forcing myself, covering,

01:02:04.046 --> 01:02:07.640
masking, pretending, whatever it may be.

01:02:08.010 --> 01:02:11.734
So I suppose that essence of Icky Guy and that

01:02:11.772 --> 01:02:15.270
essence of belonging now tries to drive

01:02:15.340 --> 01:02:19.126
me to do what I do. And

01:02:19.148 --> 01:02:22.986
it also drives me to recognise what doesn't work for

01:02:23.008 --> 01:02:26.634
me. So I'm not scared to step out and say, I'm sorry,

01:02:26.672 --> 01:02:30.438
that doesn't work for me. That's not me. I don't feel it.

01:02:30.624 --> 01:02:33.886
So I suppose that's my answer to your question.

01:02:34.068 --> 01:02:37.566
Discovering belonging and what I

01:02:37.588 --> 01:02:41.230
love, that's so powerful. I love that. And to be okay,

01:02:41.300 --> 01:02:44.970
to say no, to walk away from spaces and conversations

01:02:45.050 --> 01:02:48.302
that are not acceptable. That's beautiful, those boundaries,

01:02:48.366 --> 01:02:51.780
right? Having those healthy boundaries spot on.

01:02:52.630 --> 01:02:56.466
Yeah. And I get challenged. I'm a trans woman

01:02:56.498 --> 01:02:59.942
in my late 50s. There's a lot of trans

01:02:59.996 --> 01:03:02.870
critical views, transcritical rhetoric,

01:03:03.690 --> 01:03:06.680
and people want to debate it. And

01:03:07.790 --> 01:03:11.574
I've discovered I don't owe anybody an argument, I don't owe

01:03:11.622 --> 01:03:15.050
anybody a justification, I don't owe anybody a defence.

01:03:15.470 --> 01:03:17.980
So I'm quite comfortable saying,

01:03:19.310 --> 01:03:22.474
I accept. We have dim perspectives, we're so

01:03:22.512 --> 01:03:25.438
polarised, there's no way we can come to the centre of this table and have

01:03:25.444 --> 01:03:29.194
a conversation. Therefore, I'm sorry, I don't owe you an argument.

01:03:29.322 --> 01:03:32.798
I don't owe you a justification, because that's what you want to do. You want

01:03:32.804 --> 01:03:36.260
to provoke me into an argument or justification where you want to win.

01:03:37.270 --> 01:03:41.026
I don't need to be right. I don't need to win or lose. It

01:03:41.048 --> 01:03:44.898
doesn't fulfil me. Why take part in this? So it's allowed me to

01:03:44.904 --> 01:03:48.562
sort of step away from those. And when I see the negative language,

01:03:48.626 --> 01:03:52.278
the negative comments, I'm able to

01:03:52.444 --> 01:03:55.894
look at it very detached, very

01:03:55.932 --> 01:03:59.658
pragmatic. And the phrase I use, I see it as

01:03:59.664 --> 01:04:03.180
graffiti. So graffiti sprayed onto a wall.

01:04:03.950 --> 01:04:07.766
It's anger expressed on a wall. It's

01:04:07.798 --> 01:04:11.414
not at me. You have anger. You have something

01:04:11.472 --> 01:04:14.910
that makes you different

01:04:15.060 --> 01:04:18.000
perspective to me. You're spraying on a wall.

01:04:18.930 --> 01:04:21.886
I don't have to look at it. I can drive past it, I can see

01:04:21.908 --> 01:04:25.698
it and go, Whatever. I don't internalise it. I just see it for what

01:04:25.704 --> 01:04:29.138
it is. It's anger expressed somewhere else.

01:04:29.304 --> 01:04:32.740
So it allows me to reframe in that way. So I don't take things

01:04:33.910 --> 01:04:37.250
to heart. Okay, yes, I accept my armour

01:04:38.810 --> 01:04:42.402
sometimes gets pierced when I'm not ready, when I'm

01:04:42.546 --> 01:04:46.294
vulnerable or I feel too relaxed. Sometimes it can

01:04:46.332 --> 01:04:50.082
hit me. But mostly my self care, my resilience

01:04:50.146 --> 01:04:53.674
kick in and I may need to hide for an hour or two and come

01:04:53.712 --> 01:04:56.700
back. But mostly I can process that and go,

01:04:57.630 --> 01:05:00.954
use my techniques, get out of this rut. It's just

01:05:00.992 --> 01:05:04.686
graffiti, it's not personal. They don't know me and

01:05:04.708 --> 01:05:08.494
then step away from it. So, yeah, I think all those

01:05:08.532 --> 01:05:11.920
combination of things is what I've discovered about myself in the last

01:05:12.310 --> 01:05:15.860
three, four, five. Years that's so important, that

01:05:16.470 --> 01:05:20.274
those tools for self care and to just block out

01:05:20.312 --> 01:05:23.922
negativity and harshness when it's all around us,

01:05:23.976 --> 01:05:27.734
it's so hard. I love that you shared that. Thank

01:05:27.772 --> 01:05:31.446
you. I'm going to carry this

01:05:31.468 --> 01:05:34.870
on. This is my show. But I'm also conscious

01:05:35.450 --> 01:05:38.518
that I can't put my fingers in my ear and bury my head in the

01:05:38.524 --> 01:05:42.074
sand. So I'm not excluding and blocking out those

01:05:42.112 --> 01:05:45.642
thoughts. I'm just processing them in a way

01:05:45.696 --> 01:05:49.514
that I don't internalise. So I look at them, I understand them,

01:05:49.552 --> 01:05:53.006
I recognise them. I hear your argument, I hear your debate, I

01:05:53.028 --> 01:05:56.606
hear your view, but I don't want to engage in

01:05:56.628 --> 01:06:00.206
it. So I'm not denying you to hold that view.

01:06:00.308 --> 01:06:03.966
In fact, sometimes I actually spend. Time reading

01:06:04.158 --> 01:06:07.934
critical views, not just about trans or gender identity,

01:06:08.062 --> 01:06:11.810
but critical views around racism, critical views around other

01:06:11.880 --> 01:06:15.714
characteristics, because I think you have to know what's going

01:06:15.752 --> 01:06:19.510
on in the world, be able to process

01:06:19.580 --> 01:06:23.346
it and say, no, that's not what I think. I've spent

01:06:23.378 --> 01:06:26.918
a lot of time trying to do some research on the crisis going on in

01:06:26.924 --> 01:06:30.726
Israel and Palestine and with Hamas. I don't have an answer. I

01:06:30.748 --> 01:06:34.506
don't know the answer. But what I do know is I don't know. So I

01:06:34.528 --> 01:06:38.042
need to find out more. I have an opinion, and my opinion is

01:06:38.176 --> 01:06:41.958
peace needs to win. People need to stop dying. People need to not

01:06:41.984 --> 01:06:45.678
kill each other. People can't have their families, their lives, everything

01:06:45.764 --> 01:06:49.294
ripped apart through conflict. That's what I stand

01:06:49.332 --> 01:06:52.080
against. Who's right? Who's wrong? I don't know.

01:06:53.010 --> 01:06:56.126
I can't solve that problem. But what I do know is, let's talk about peace.

01:06:56.158 --> 01:06:59.842
Let's talk about resolving this. Let's talk about stopping people

01:06:59.896 --> 01:07:02.660
dying. So that's my focus.

01:07:04.150 --> 01:07:07.878
I do listen to perspectives. I don't shut them out, but I

01:07:07.884 --> 01:07:11.686
do it in a way where I'm able

01:07:11.708 --> 01:07:15.190
to process them and learn about things

01:07:15.260 --> 01:07:19.082
and form my own model, if you like. In my head

01:07:19.136 --> 01:07:22.378
around things and continually wanting to challenge it,

01:07:22.544 --> 01:07:26.394
avoiding the confirmation, avoiding biases that I know I probably

01:07:26.432 --> 01:07:29.958
hold, is deliberately trying to test myself to find

01:07:30.064 --> 01:07:32.190
alternate theories, alternate solutions.

01:07:33.970 --> 01:07:37.374
Probably my science background, my It background is you're always trying to look

01:07:37.412 --> 01:07:41.054
for information, different information, things, different

01:07:41.092 --> 01:07:44.894
solutions, different ways of working. So, yeah, I continue to challenge myself

01:07:44.932 --> 01:07:48.594
in that way. Sorry, that's me going off on one left. And that

01:07:48.632 --> 01:07:52.194
rigour is really important. That rigour and your

01:07:52.232 --> 01:07:55.942
recognition of I thought you said it so beautifully when you said

01:07:55.996 --> 01:07:59.510
you don't owe an argument to anybody. But for that

01:07:59.580 --> 01:08:03.202
rigorous scientific processing of a complex

01:08:03.266 --> 01:08:06.934
problem. And coming up with a response rather than

01:08:06.972 --> 01:08:10.534
a mindless reaction needs a quiet

01:08:10.582 --> 01:08:14.022
time where you are able to block out unnecessary

01:08:14.086 --> 01:08:17.914
static and take in input, but

01:08:17.952 --> 01:08:21.678
nevertheless have that moment for yourself where you can think through things and have

01:08:21.764 --> 01:08:25.534
a thoughtful response to a situation that's absolutely important. In fact,

01:08:25.572 --> 01:08:29.406
that's perhaps more important than being reactive to everything

01:08:29.508 --> 01:08:33.326
and responding instantly to every noise that comes your way. You

01:08:33.348 --> 01:08:36.500
don't owe an argument to anybody. I loved when you said that.

01:08:37.590 --> 01:08:41.230
I think that's also a good trait for leaders

01:08:41.310 --> 01:08:45.122
to approach, that you haven't got to have the answer now.

01:08:45.176 --> 01:08:48.886
You don't have to respond now. You can hold the

01:08:48.908 --> 01:08:52.646
space. You can say, Look, I need to think about that. You're right. There's some

01:08:52.668 --> 01:08:56.486
challenges there. Give me half an hour. Let me

01:08:56.508 --> 01:09:00.166
come up with some ideas. Let's get back after a cup of coffee, and let's

01:09:00.198 --> 01:09:04.026
sit down when we're both ready for that conversation. And otherwise you do

01:09:04.048 --> 01:09:07.834
tend to just go off on your first thought, your

01:09:07.872 --> 01:09:11.626
first bias, your first reaction, and we need to be measured

01:09:11.658 --> 01:09:14.826
and considered a lot of the time. Beautiful, in my humble

01:09:14.858 --> 01:09:18.654
opinion, anyway. Kg, thank

01:09:18.692 --> 01:09:22.222
you. Thank you. We could carry on all day, I know we could.

01:09:22.356 --> 01:09:26.098
And hopefully one day we'll actually meet in person somewhere. Somewhere in

01:09:26.104 --> 01:09:29.938
the world. And for you, the listeners, thank you for getting to the

01:09:29.944 --> 01:09:33.794
end of this episode of the Inclusion Bytes Podcast. Please do

01:09:33.832 --> 01:09:37.150
subscribe, if you're not already subscribed. And it's B-I-T-E-S.

01:09:37.230 --> 01:09:40.994
Inclusion Bites. B-I-T-E-S. Tell your friends tell your colleagues.

01:09:41.122 --> 01:09:44.486
I've got a number of other exciting guests lined up, and I'm sure you'd be

01:09:44.508 --> 01:09:48.070
equally inspired over the next few weeks and months. So this is episode 90.

01:09:48.140 --> 01:09:51.586
It's not long till we turn 100. So hoping

01:09:51.618 --> 01:09:55.078
that there's going to be a guest who's going to be magical for the

01:09:55.084 --> 01:09:58.854
hundredth. Who knows, of course, that could be you being

01:09:58.892 --> 01:10:02.654
a guest. So, yeah, please sign up. I welcome any

01:10:02.692 --> 01:10:04.862
suggestions and feedback on how we can improve. To

01:10:04.916 --> 01:10:08.698
jo.lockwood@seechangehapen.co.uk.

01:10:08.874 --> 01:10:12.686
And finally, my name is Joanne Lockwood, and

01:10:12.708 --> 01:10:16.506
it's been an absolute pleasure to host this podcast for you today. Catch

01:10:16.538 --> 01:10:18.170
you next time. Bye.