WEBVTT
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Welcome.
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This is in conversation with an end-of-life specialist, with your host Patricia Sears, your end-of-life navigator.
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We're so glad you're here with us today.
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Whether you're tuning in for the first time or you've been with us from the very beginning, thank you.
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Thank you for choosing to spend this time with us.
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These conversations take courage and a willingness to lean into what matters most, even when it's unfamiliar ground.
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That's the whole point.
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We don't have to navigate it alone.
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Today we've got something truly meaningful to share with you.
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Let's dive in.
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Hello everyone.
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Thank you for being here.
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I want to welcome the graceful lifers who are here, who are the special invitees for um for our audience to be able to ask questions of Darnell later in the hour.
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So I want to introduce Darnell.
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And he is a Death Doula.
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He is an Emmy nominated writer.
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He's the author of one of my, what's become one of my favorite books to listen to and to read and go back to.
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Never can say goodbye.
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I'm not gonna sing it.
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Maybe Darnell will.
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I think about singing it every every time I hear the title.
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Right.
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How could you not?
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And he's also um fifth-year faculty at Esselin Um Institute, and sincerely one of the clearest voices in this work.
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But first I'm going to ask Darnell, um, please tell us one thing, only one, that's not in your bio.
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One thing that is not in my bio is that I was on my way currently to becoming a ballet dancer.
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I've been, it's one of my regrets in life uh that I didn't do it when I was a teenager.
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Although I was asked by the ballet teacher because I was in a play um and I had to take her class.
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And she said, I really hope you stay here and stay in this class because you're actually really good.
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And I said, No, I'm 16, I'm a 16-year-old kid from Virginia.
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I'm I am not gonna do that.
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And I and it's one of my regrets.
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So I I just signed up and I'm so excited about taking that class.
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Um, and so hopefully the next time you, if we ever do this again, the next time you read that, it will be he has a show coming up soon.
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Wow.
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Can I ask where you're gonna take your lessons?
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Uh I'm doing it at a small studio in um in Georgia.
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I I when I I signed up originally a couple years ago uh at a at a place in New York, and I wish I remembered the name.
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Um but I I don't.
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Um, but it's a small studio in Georgia right outside of Atlanta.
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Wow.
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How exciting.
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Well, I can't wait to hear more about it, and I will look forward to your posts as you progress and have fun with it.
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You know, um you've seen, we're both on Substack, and you've seen my posts as well as my Substack, that um how much I love what you wrote in Dying Empty about Dying Empty.
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And um, you know, dying empty catches the eye and the ear, um, in my opinion, more than what we often hear, uh, which is living fully.
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So can you talk to us a little bit more about that?
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Absolutely.
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You know, as a creative, especially for me, uh my goal is to leave it all here.
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There's so many ideas that I have, so many um things I want to say to the people I love, so many things I just want to say to people I've come across.
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Um, but I want to die knowing that I gave everything that I have, every every bit of my every ounce of my talent, my skills, abilities, um, to those who needed it, those who may find it later.
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Um, you know, I I often say if I write another book, if I get the opportunity to write and publish another book, that even if people grab it to you and use it to sweep up dirt, you know, in the kitchen, at least I got it out.
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You know, and it's not up to me how others, you know, take it.
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It's just up to me to get it out.
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And I really want to get that out.
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It's kind of the giving tree, you know, uh, this tree that just gave and gave and gave.
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Um, and at the end it was just a stump.
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And I really want to go out like that stump and you know, and and leave nothing uh inside.
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Uh and that that's the plan.
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I have in my phone right now.
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I I without exaggerating, I probably have you know 10, at least 10,000 notes in there of things I want to write, things I want to create, things I want to do.
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And it's as long as I'm working on getting to those things and and doing as much of it as possible.
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Not not you know, not overwhelming myself, of course, but as it comes naturally.
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Um, so when I get to the end, I say, yeah, I I have nothing, nothing else.
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Well, and it's a practice, right?
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You know, absolutely.
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It's you know, you have to, and hopefully um folks listening today will, you know, take a pause and think, like, oh, what does that mean to me?
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And to be more aware of um continuing to, you know, give more and to and to say more, you know, dying empty, you know, saying making sure that to the best of your ability, you are connecting with um important people in your life and telling them all kinds of things about you know your journey and certainly how much you love them.
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Oh, absolutely.
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I mean, if if it even crosses your mind, you know, it doesn't have to be this thing that every day I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna do this thing, but when it crosses your mind to just honor that moment, even and say, oh, you know what, I should call her, or I should write this letter and send that off, or maybe I should sign up for this ballet class.
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You know, if it if it crosses the mind, do it.
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Honor the moment.
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Yes.
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So um you brought an object exercise to Eslan that you've described as um arriving somewhere else entirely.
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And can you walk me through that?
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The uh which which exercise is that?
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I'm sorry.
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It's the exercise that you described as arriving somewhere else entirely.
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Oh, yeah.
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Um, you know, I I it's sort of um this thing of thinking about how the things we leave behind, sort of in a way, um, where, you know, I'm I'm sort of providing this door for you, and it's for you to walk through that.
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Um, you know, I I get to Essalin, and a large part of my goal when I get to Essalin is to help people tell their own story.
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Like it's very important for me to as a one, as a writer, two, as a death dealer, and having been in these spaces um with people who have so much in there.
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Again, going back to the dying empty thing, it's there's so much we have in there to really get out.
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And I'm I'm here to help people tell those stories because I see what happens when we don't.
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Um, and so I I came to Esselin and I said, you know, think about, you know, the things that one that we have uh that we may leave behind when it's time to go.
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Um, but also think about the stories that we have.
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Think about the last time you felt truly alive.
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Um, think about who you were with, think about what you were doing.
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Um, and maybe if if you know the the date, when was that?
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Um and it's sort of returning to the self.
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Um and when we do that, it's kind of this, it's it's sort of this moment where it's like, oh that was joy.
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Um, and then going from there and saying, well, what did what have I drifted from in a way?
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And if if I'm able to see that drift, and and was it was it choice or was it um sacrifice um that that caused that drift?
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And then after that, it's how can we return to that and who's gonna support that?
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What's one small step I can take today to help me return to that um to that joy, to that moment of um uh of aliveness.
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And it's sort of giving folks this door to walk through and then see where they arrive um once they get once they get in there.
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Um but also taking this object as uh, and then and then we bring the object in and say, okay, you have this thing.
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Now what is it?
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Describe it to me.
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Tell me everything there is about it, you know, who gave it to you?
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Where did it come from?
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And once you start describing it, you you start talking about the person um that's attached to it, the person that um that you remember.
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Uh maybe it was a coffee mug that you love that your grandmother used to drink instant coffee.
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I think about my grandmother every time I see any sort of really sweet coffee that has too much sugar in it.
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And then I'll start writing about her.
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Um, and then you never know where it's gonna go.
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Um, but it's sort of it's this thing that you started at one place, you started at this object, you started at the joy, and then you started at this object, and then where you end up is somewhere completely different with a thousand words on a page about these moments that meant so much to you and these people who meant so much to you over your life.
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Um, and I love doing that.
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It's it's it's sort of, you know, we we forget the things that we forget so much.
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We forget the things that we used to remember, you know, it's this this wild thing.
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Um and I love to see where people take it.
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I love to see the the smile that comes across folks' faces when they um remember the people.
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Um, because in the end, what I've noticed when I'm when I'm at the bedsides, it's you know, they they tell us the poets have said, you know, you can't make homes out of people.
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But I what I found at the end of life, it's it's always the people.
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When I have clients who say, you know, I want to go home.
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It's rarely, you know, at the very end.
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Um it's rarely home.
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It's usually I want to go back to that love that I remember.
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I want to go back to that person.
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Um, and so it's it's so great to see where they end up with these objects because it's always a person attached to them.
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Yeah.
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Wow.
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My mind's like completely full now of all kinds of things like that.
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Um so um before I move on, uh could you explain Esselin Institute?
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Where is it?
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Absolutely.
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So Esselin Institute um is it's a wellness retreat center.
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That's the best way I can describe it.
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Um it's in Big Sur, California, um, founded in the 60s um by Michael Murphy with the goal of really bringing out human potential.
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Um and so so so many things were pioneered there.
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You have uh um Gestalt Therapy, um psychedelics, um, you know, Hunter S.
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Thompson was a was a gate, uh was the what do you gate guard, essentially, um there.
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Um Henry Miller, you know, and and then you had Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell, and like all these amazing, incredible beings.
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Alan Watts taught there.
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Um, and so it's this place where you come in now, what happens there is I I lead workshops on writing, telling your own story, unlocking and unblocking the creative within.
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Um, but there are so many incredible workshops that happen there for a week or just a weekend where you can come and really be in community with people who have a shared uh interest in so many things.
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Uh my one of my partners in one of the workshops I lead, she does uh somatic uh somatic movement and and yoga and things.
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And so we we recognize how the how those two things can kind of go hand in hand where she opens up to folks in the morning, and then I come in in the afternoon and say, okay, let's write for the next two hours.
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And so many people come in and they say, you know, well, I haven't written in years, and I don't think I'm a writer, and then these folks start sharing, and you and I think we forgot how important it is to have someone there to listen um and and to bounce ideas off of either, you know, and these folks start sharing it's some of the most incredible stories and and and words I I've ever heard, but it's an incredible place.
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Um, there's always a workshop going on, and so if you just look it up, you could you'll likely find something that fits you, um, if it's my workshop or not.
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Wow.
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And you know, when you were just talking about the listening, that is like such an essential part of what we do, right?
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As end of life um or death doolas and end-of-life navigators, it's really um helpful to the special person who's dying, but also, you know, the dynamics I found, you know, with um caregivers and loved ones is to, you know, um maybe model the practice of listening and how um fear can you know be um let go in a way um because you're paying attention and that all leads to presence.
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Absolutely.
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I you know, I think we sometimes we one forget how important listening is, but two, we we all think we are great listeners because we are there.
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And sometimes it's important to remember that listening sometimes is just showing up and being quiet and saying nothing.
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Uh and a lot of the listening, a lot of the listening that we're doing is trying is actually us trying to fix something for someone.
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Um, and it's important to know that we're not there to fix, we're there to simply listen, to simply be present.
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That's the biggest part of this work.
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Um, you know, I've been doing it for so long, and I learned it from my grandma, just being there and not saying anything and reaching out when I when when needed or giving a shoulder when needed.
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So many times I've shown up and said, listen, I have no idea what I can do for you, but I'll sit here on the other end of this couch, and if you want to talk, I'll be yeah, um what a gift your grandma was for you in so many ways.
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Um, but I love you know the different things that you've shared in your book about her and her influence with you.
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And, you know, as I was, you know, just um talking about, you know, how she was so influential in her sincere and authentic modeling of presence.
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And of um, to me, the other thing that struck me was um she didn't seem afraid of the process, and she seemed to be um available and tuned in, and also, you know, um including you at you know, on many different occasions so that you, you know, learned watching and listening to her.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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You know, I I think part of that, a lot of that, um, I'm sure looking back was because I was a curious kid.
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I was always asking questions.
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Um, but and also I come from a family that just didn't want to talk about them.
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And so it was me and her.
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And so when I asked the question, she was more than happy to answer them.
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Um, but when she was, even when she wasn't paying attention, like you said, you know, I I noticed how just unafraid she was in those moments, even the small, uncomfortable moments.
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She was just there.
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And she would say, Okay, um, well, tell me more about that.
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Or and and she would ask questions.
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And I I I remember looking and saying, okay, I need to do that.
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Okay, and then do that.
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And then when that when that happens, do that.
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And and so when I was 12 was the first time I helped um with her.
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Um, I helped someone transition.
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It was a cousin.
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Um, but then that next year at 13, I volunteered at the hospice, the local hospice nearby.
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And not because it was a hospice, but because it was something to do after school.
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Um, but I remember being in there because I wasn't, you know, I wasn't the this death duel.
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I was just this kid who helped with art arts and crafts and put calendars in rooms, right?
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Um, but when I would go into the rooms, people would say, could you just sit for a while and talk to me?
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There's no one comes to visit.
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And I thought, sure, yeah, I I guess I could do that.
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Um, and and everything I'd watched my grandmother do over the years just clicked in, and it was like, okay, what would she do here?
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Or what would she say here?
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Or should I just be quiet?
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And and I I mimicked her exactly until it became my own um thing, you know, and and and found myself in that work many years later.
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It wasn't, you know, right away, of course.
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Um, I think it wasn't until about 10 years ago that I realized that this was actually something people did with intention.
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You know, up until then it was just, well, yeah, we of course we take care of people.
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We take care of people we love.
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This isn't work, this is just what we are supposed to do.
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Um, and even now, that's what I and I still approach the work the same way.
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It's you know, just taking care of people we love, or you know, as the um the one saying, we're all just walking each other home, right?
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And so it's just walking each other home.
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Indeed.
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Boy, yeah.
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Um, like I said, you are um a fortunate one in that you had your grandma because um a lot of us don't have that person, or we haven't had that person yet in our lives, you know, whether we were young or even now.
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So um I'm so glad that you shared her in your book with us.
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You know, you've said that um sorrow and laughter um move through the same room.
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Uh most people treat those as opposites, though.
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And what have you watched happen in a room when both arrive at once?
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Oh, I I've watched community form.
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I watched how we can take how we take care of each other in those spaces.
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Um, when so many of us are so are just used to going off alone and thinking that we're the only, no one knows the sorrow.
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No one understands the sorrow we're going through.
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Um, but when we can do that in a room together, when someone we're we're here falling apart and someone across the room is laughing, which happens a lot.
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Like I, you know, after the funeral, you have the repass in a lot of cultures and a lot of families, or um, or just the the part after where there's food.
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Um and a lot of times that's where this happens first.
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You know, this is the first place this happens because while someone's you know falling apart and telling stories, uh, you know, that that's that's just simply killing them inside.
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There's someone over here telling a funny story about that same person.
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And it's oh and here we can we can all get together and and put together, you know, this.
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:31.920
We all we we don't know someone fully individually, but when we get together, we can put that person together as much as we can.
00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:34.960
We all have a different story, a different version.
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:50.319
And in that, you can watch these folks just sort of hold each other and you know, find reasons to um to smile, um, and even new reasons to fall apart when you get home.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:51.680
It's like, oh, I didn't know that.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:52.640
Why didn't I know that?
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:56.559
And then you go in probably in your shower, because that's how grief works too.
00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:59.599
Um, but it's it is this building of community.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:25:43.519
it's oh I'm not alone it's we're so used to doing this by ourselves this is none of this should be done alone um and so in those rooms where it happens um that happens but also we can we get a new definition of what grief looks like you know a lot of times we are so used to like grief for us looks like again the falling apart the the crying the I need to be held up um you know we got the the those seven stages that we realize aren't aren't true you know it's grief isn't that you know but um when we're in those rooms we see that oh grief is also joy and grief is also laughter and grief is oh they just left the house to just they put on some running shoes with this with this funeral suit and they're gonna go run five miles that's grief too um and so we get to form our own definition um about what that thing is about what that is and um so it's beautiful but I think the most important thing for me that I've seen um and for me has been the community aspect of it and um having people who now know how much it hurts uh how much I'm hurting and I know how much they're hurting and no and no one here can say that we were alone in in that wow yeah thank you it's very enlightening and again from in all about me land prompts me to pay attention more um because it's very liberating to have all those different aspects of um stories and news stories to say oh wow oh either and sometimes it's like a puzzle right it's like oh that's why this happened that's why she moved here or you know that kind of thing and now you have a gift that you can give um to other people oh absolutely absolutely absolutely even you know I I have your real quick story I was with a friend um just last week in Michigan and so for years I've been going to Burning Man right in in Nevada and it's it's an incredible time but I've heard the story from some of my campmates at Burning Man about this about uh a friend of theirs or this guy they met there who died there um he jumped into the fire um and no one knew why for years I've been here we we tell this story every year you know it's a part of that grief thing and that community thing where this story comes up every year and just last week in Michigan I was talking to someone who'd never been the Burning Man but she knew him and she was able to put pieces together that no one that I've been having telling the story with for years no one knew and so it was it was like oh and just just this past week you know I've been in Montreal and one of my campmates was on the trip with me and I finally got to sit down with her and say hey so you know that story we've been telling this is why this thing happened and she's like oh now it makes sense and so it's it's the listening it's the talking it's being in community and and and being able to share those stories um even when you think they're not like oh this this will go nowhere but yeah again no one know you know to say we know someone fully is to really reduce someone's life and I think you know we have to admit that we don't know the full thing and so looking for answers in other places is a natural thing and just being curious and keeping that conversation going I think too is an important thing to hold on to.
00:25:44.960 --> 00:26:34.799
Yeah and I'm listening to you and I'm realizing too um the power of being with you know sometimes when you know more folks that we're sitting with you know understand and feel that we're being with them opens up you know um all kinds of sharing yeah absolutely I think I think we have to keep doing that like just always like again it's it's we're not alone in this and to always to always be open to that always if you want to share share if there's something you feel you know say it out loud um do the thing hold the space for the person next to you to do the same thing.
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:37.440
Thank you.
00:26:38.480 --> 00:27:09.920
So um as you know I um was particularly um taken with and impressed with the um obsession you had at Aspen Ideas and especially with one of the things that you said was that we need to give children space um for their small goodbyes and that millions of children will experience a loss close to them.
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:44.720
What are we getting wrong and what does getting right look like yeah absolutely so you know um also so my full time for those who don't know my full-time job is also to I write television for kids um and so um I answer from both being a death doer and being a children's television writer is one thing we're getting wrong is not confronting our own discomfort with death and our own fears around it.
00:27:45.039 --> 00:28:06.480
Because a lot of times when kids come to us and they want to have those conversations and parents sort of shut the conversation down it's because they are afraid of getting the answer wrong or andor they're afraid of um death and dying and the that discomfort itself.
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:14.000
And so it's finding out what the root of that is for for those of us who are afraid to have those conversations.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:17.599
But also we're assuming the kids can't handle it.
00:28:17.759 --> 00:29:38.720
We're assuming the kids um are having a hard time with it and what I've I found the exact opposite you know kids want to have these conversations they're so aware of what's happening in the world what's happening around them excuse me they're losing friends they're losing grandparents they're losing brothers sisters parents and no one's talking to them about it because we think they can't handle it yet I'll wait a couple of years um when they can handle it just fine and and need to because what happens is they turn into the adults who are very afraid um who can't say uh who who are finding it hard to say that final goodbye and so you know at Aspen when I talked about the the the small goodbyes we've been saying goodbye throughout our life you know but we we never acknowledge that and we never honored those goodbyes like you know going into summer you know we're saying goodbye to our friends for a few months um summer ending you know that's an amazing time the dog died the goldfish died a grandparent died maybe when we were younger or um you know friends and uh and so you have all of these little things and and and everything that's a that's related to grief that's not death loss.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:50.400
Kids are also losing pieces of their identity just as we are you know when we lose a job you know we have to wrestle with who are we now kids have to do the same thing.
00:29:50.880 --> 00:30:00.480
And so getting them so what I try to do as a writer is try to get them to notice those little things that they're saying goodbye to and really honor those moments.
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:08.079
Because if we if they can do that over the course of their life when they get to the end it's oh this yeah this isn't so bad.
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:34.319
I've been saying goodbye for a very long time you know um when that job changes it's oh here's another little here's another thing that I have to grieve I know I have tools for grief because of this happened when I was five you know and and so just providing them with those tools but yeah we are we're assuming that they they're not smart enough and and it's not fair.
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:40.480
And you know I think like I said the numbers right now are for death loss for a child.
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:47.359
There are about seven to eight million kids in the US alone who have experienced the death of someone very close to them.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:31:03.920
We're talking parent sibling uh very close friend um and no one's talking about you know there are people talking thankfully there are people stepping up to talk about it but it's not not on the scale that it needs to be happening.
00:31:05.279 --> 00:32:32.240
Well this is going back to a couple of things that we've already talked about right is um being intentional about a practice of recognizing and acknowledging and naming a loss you know if it's you know like you said friends because now you're going to a new school you were in elementary school together for so many years but now people are going the our friends are going to different middle schools or high schools and that kind of thing um and certainly you know when pets die that um you know we again acknowledge that as a loss and um you know say it out loud and one of the other things that you mentioned in that particular conversation at Aspen was the the power of or it's kind of like um shares power with children in saying somebody died instead of they went to sleep or you know they you know all the other euphemisms and um that really struck me and sat with me as well.
00:32:32.640 --> 00:33:36.400
Yeah I mean it's important to you know when when having these conversations um with them to be very clear about it and and if it changed it's fine to change it down the line once they have an understanding like I I've been talking about it with my son since he's since he could talk really because death was a part of his journey into this world or at least mortality was right and so um we've been having those conversations and so now when I talk about it I can say oh oh yeah you know someone passed away or this happened but in the beginning it was oh they died because it was important for him to understand what that means because we say these things we say oh yeah you know your your great grandmother uh went to sleep and just didn't wake up and now you have a kid who's afraid to sleep at night you know and it's and that's it happens so often and um and then you have a bigger problem on your hands you know and it's like we could have got this right the first time and then you can go back to whatever it is.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:34:02.480
You know but and kids do not fear it if if they if they see that we are comfortable or or not even comfortable if they see that we're able to have this conversation with them they open up and they they ask questions and you know some kids will just ask the question go off and you know like I said if they're asking they'll go off and do a cartwheel jump in the pool and they may come back three days later and ask another question.
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:35.519
But it's like oh okay yeah that yeah that's fine but I I get to talk to kids often and about death and they say oh yeah um yeah well when my dog died this is what happened and I'm like oh and they say but no one wants to talk to me about it at home and I'm like oh and you see that they are like very aware of the entire process it's like every show you've seen that that uses like the birds and the bees story right it's like oh I sit down and talk to my kids about it and they sit down and the kids like oh I know all about that part I'm asking about this.
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:44.400
And it's so they're they're fully aware it's just us who have to um step up just a bit to the play.
00:34:44.719 --> 00:35:03.920
Well and one more thing before we move on is you know I think it's really important what you know you have shared is when kids ask us what happened or you know how does this work it's okay to say out loud I don't know I don't have an answer to that right now.
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:11.679
But you know it going to that instead of like speak to the hand no absolutely go do something.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:15.760
And we and and it's an opportunity for us to find the answer together.
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:24.559
So then you have you know a moment where oh we all have you know this cell phone or this the internet or we can go to the library and figure it out.
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:27.360
But it's a it's a learning moment for us both.
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:29.760
Yeah yeah I love it.
00:35:30.400 --> 00:36:00.000
All right so I want to um bring in the Graceful lifers now um you've been holding your questions and I know you have them so we have about 10 minutes and um I will unmute you one at a time I ask for you to look at the bottom of your screen when you see raise hand um because that way I've got a sound and um a visual so I can call on you.
00:36:00.320 --> 00:37:33.039
So um let's get started and then shooting so um I was uh interested in asking uh I I'm I'm thinking of an experience where um when my mom passed I was living in Washington DC and she was in Vermont and uh so I I came back to the funeral and to my amazement two of my friends from work uh came up flew up to Vermont and found their way to my little hometown uh they were both big city guys um and a conversation that they started had to do with um they'd never met my mother but they'd heard me talk about her so many times that uh Vince a good friend um said I I felt like I know her from your stories and he told one of the stories and everybody in the room that was family started to talk about how she was and that was kind of a magic moment.
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:49.920
My son was there and so he got to to know a different part of my mother and it was you know there's a there's a there's a a line in a Christa Gustafenson song Partly Truth and Partly Fiction.
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:56.320
And you know it's a beautiful place when those two things come together.
00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:06.480
And I I would like to hear an experience that you may have had where truth and fiction came together almost like a magic.
00:38:07.280 --> 00:42:20.000
Oh that's uh thanks for sharing that Steve yeah thank you for sharing that's beautiful um you know I I see these stories it's sort of uh my grandfather personally I comes to mind when he was alive like I he died in 2017 and one of my wishes in life is that I'd known him more as an adult um you know for me um but we had we had an amazing time um toward the end of his life um but he was this huge person um just in everyone's life like his friends family members so I grew up on more stories of him than I than that were he walked from and you you you live you live in DC and I'm so I'm from Charlottesville Virginia which is about two and a half hours away but these stories of him walking to Washington DC on the side of the road yeah like these incredible stories like huge he was in he was in New York and and walked all of New York until he he met some random man at a bar who knew his aunt and then he told him how to get to Harlem and then like these fantastic uh incredible stories that I knew were absolutely false but they they aided in this um sort of like this this myth and this legend of him that we still we still tell these stories and I think they're still beautiful there and and they're a part of him you know it's what made him him there's an incredible film if you haven't seen it called um uh big fish um if anyone's seen it but it's this story this um this this young man grew up always hearing these crazy stories that his dad would tell everywhere would tell him at his wedding tell him at the at parties and the son was tired of them because they would be about the giant he he met and walked the the earth with um the witch whose eye he looked into and he could see when how he was going to die um and how he worked at a circus for years um and then the father at the end you meet all of these people who he thought was a lie he thought they were all lies but in the end you find out that oh this was actually a part of the story there was a little exaggeration uh but it it it really made the man um and so I I love those I think those are just as important you know uh we we the way we remember things um and how we add to add to stories for for dramatics and and for for fun I think it's it's beautiful uh and I think we should continue to do that um but you know it it it's a beautiful thing yeah practicing oral history is a is an art that um is unfortunately going away too rapidly Judy thank you nice to be with you um Darnell just a curious question I'm sure you have but have you witnessed or could you tell us about moments or a moments at the bedside that you experienced that kind of changed your whole thought projectory about death and dying and or and or continuing bonds that we have with the people that are dying yeah absolutely um I think when I was nine um the first thing um when I was nine my grandmother's sister was dying and I I wasn't present for that um but what happened my mom had come home to tell me um what was going on at the hospital and again I was this curious kid and so the rest of my cousins who were the same age or a little bit older a little bit younger they wouldn't dare ask what was happening at the hospital and what cancer was like or any of that but I was very curious and my mom came home one day and she says oh well you know today she said that she saw her mom her mom had came to come to visit now my great aunt's mother had died years before and she said you know she came to visit and she said she was coming back once her room was ready.
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:39.519
And I remember being nine years old thinking well she's dead does that mean she's gonna die and then growing up and watching my uh at 12 watching my cousin die and and now really being in this work I see it so often where the people I'm with are reaching for their loved ones.
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:49.440
I I'm sometimes sitting there and they'll look to the to you know the space right next to me and start a a conversation with whoever it is they see there.
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:58.159
And like I was my friend's Death Doolan he would stop talking to me and just look over and have a full conversation with his grandmother who died years before.
00:42:58.320 --> 00:44:04.559
And I say oh is your grandma back and he say yeah she's right there and I think oh how beautiful okay I'll leave the room and give you all some space and you know it really showed me that oh you know there is a comfort that comes for so many of us at the end of life and it's led me to ask you know several people questions not even not just the dying when I'm able to be in the room but um friends and people I meet along the way and even at panels I'm like who who is it you want to come back for you when your time comes if someone's gonna come back who do you want that to be um I had you know there was a story of uh one guy who said you know he wanted his his dog when he was a kid there was a dog he loved so much he's like I hope my dog comes back and then right at the end he looks over he's like no not that dog you know he was like no the other one you know and it's like oh you gotta be more specific um but um I I see that and it's beautiful but I've also seen some really hard things too you know um I had clients who are very alone.
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:14.639
And some who have family, who who's the a family that's there, but makes them feel lonely.
00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:20.400
And so a lot of it, a lot of the work I do is to how can I keep this from happening?
00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:21.679
How can I prevent this?
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:28.639
I have a client now who, you know, I get there because I want to support him at the end of his life.
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:31.519
But his, I'm like, what can I help you with?
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:39.199
And he's only focused on, well, I want you to help my wife, actually, because she doesn't know how to be here for me.
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:44.960
And I think she's just distancing herself, but it's going to be hard when I when I'm done.
00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:51.840
And so it's like, okay, how can I make her not make him feel so lonely in this?
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:54.960
Um, and so that, you know, it's it's all of that.
00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:57.679
And I try to find solutions.
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:00.559
Um, and and then it it's client to client.
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:02.800
Like what worked here doesn't work here.
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:14.400
Um, and so overall, it's going in and saying, you know, I I don't know the answer to any of this before I get there, and I hope I figure it out, you know, before I leave.
00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:15.360
Um, also.
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:17.360
Wow.
00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:18.480
Thank you.
00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:19.119
Thank you.
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:20.880
Christina, welcome.
00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:22.559
You have a question?
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:24.320
Uh yes.
00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:38.000
Uh, Darnell, I thought it was interesting when you said how kids who were basically learned to fear death from their parents become adults who are afraid of death.
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:53.199
Um what what happens when say you're you're you're being a death doula for someone and their adult children are still afraid.
00:45:53.360 --> 00:46:02.880
And as you said, well, even the example you just gave with the wife, how do you um bridge those those two?
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:11.119
And I you probably already answered it, but I'm just I'm thinking in uh you know, through the generations basically.
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:11.679
Yeah.
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:14.719
Like how do you it's it's hard.
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:18.559
Um, and honestly, sometimes it does not work.
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:31.599
Um sometimes it it goes from not being able to help them to like my a lot of times my job doesn't stop at the death, it carries on to support the family.
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:49.760
Um, so it goes from me trying to help them um have that conversation with their parent who's dying to now helping them with the regret of not doing the things that they wish they'd done when the parent was alive that I told them they needed to do.
00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:53.519
Um, and so I, you know, and it's really client to client.
00:46:53.599 --> 00:47:09.599
I have a client now, a sister and brother, and um the sister called me, but her brother cannot bring himself to even say the word death, although he'd moved way across the country to help her take care of his mom in hospice.
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:13.280
You know, when I say, well, listen, you know, there's not much time.
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:14.960
I don't want to talk about that, you know.
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:17.840
And he goes and he tells her, everything, no, everything's gonna be fine.
00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:19.119
But she's not dying now.
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:26.239
And and I know that what's gonna happen is he's gonna miss out on the goodbye that he could have this very beautiful goodbye that he could have.
00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:31.840
He's gonna miss out on asking the questions that he could ask, getting the answers he he may need.
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:39.199
Um and he hears me, and I know he hears me, and we talk about it, but he just can't bring himself to do it.
00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:42.559
And I, you know, there's not much else that I can do.
00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:45.840
I'm I'm pulling out every skill and ability that I have.
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:58.320
Um, but then I sometimes I have to go to the to the the fear and the and the guilt and the heart of it and say, listen, if you don't do this now, this is this is what you're going to feel.
00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:00.960
This is what this is this is what's going to happen.
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:06.320
Here's someone you can talk to, and I'll bring in people who who've been in his shoes before and have that regret.
00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:22.480
I have um a friend whose mom was dying and she had three children, and she told all three, she said, Listen, if there is anything you want to know, you ask me now, and I will answer any questions, and only one of them did, and the other two said, No, it's good, you're gonna be all right.
00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:32.320
And she died, and now they they I you know they walk around with these questions that no one else can answer, and the regret that they have around that.
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:36.320
And so sometimes I have to just really go to the heart of it, especially if there's no time left.
00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:48.079
It's like, listen, there is no time, this is where we are, this is the truth of what's going to happen, this is what you have to do, or you will regret it for the rest of your life.
00:48:50.719 --> 00:48:53.440
Yeah, but it's tough, it's it's hard.
00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:58.559
And I wish, I wish it always worked, but it it doesn't.
00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:10.000
Like my, you know, and even in my own family, I my dad is one of those people who will never, like I'm I'm slowly breaking them down, but I think he'll get to the end before I can get them all the way there.
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:13.119
And he refuses to talk about death.
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:16.559
Um, but I will slip it in every chance I get.
00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:20.320
Wow, that's great.
00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:23.360
So thank you for your questions.
00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:27.599
And um we're gonna shift uh a little bit here.
00:49:27.920 --> 00:49:34.079
Um, I have six questions that I wrote specifically for Darnell.
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:42.000
And I'm gonna ask Darnell to answer them quickly and honestly as you can.
00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:45.440
And um, here we go with the six questions.
00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:52.719
What's the last thing that made you cry that had nothing to do with death?
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:57.360
Oh my gosh, the last thing that made me cry that had nothing to do with death.
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:07.440
Um was I was uh the other night I was standing on a balcony and just looking at the new moon.
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:34.320
And it was it's uh I'm thinking about it now, and I hope I don't cry on this on this podcast, but it was so beautiful, and I realized I like I think it made me think back to every new moon, and I say, I think I've I've been very emotional looking at it every time, like when it when the moon is just starting over and it's just that little slither, that little slither, it's like, oh my gosh.
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:36.800
Um but that was it, it was the moon.
00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:38.639
Wow, thank you.
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:45.280
Yeah, it's a quite an auspicious, auspicious new moon this year, um, at this time.
00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:53.519
So what did you believe about grief at the beginning that you've had to completely unlearn?
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:59.039
Oh, in the beginning, I thought grief had an ending.
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:06.880
Uh, you know, I thought that we got to that acceptance stage and we accepted it, and then we never returned to it again.
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:22.000
And that when I was fully aware of grief and how it worked in my body, I knew that I had to throw that away and it will always change and that it will always be there.
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:30.559
Is there a piece of music that you'd want playing in the room when it's your time?
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:31.840
Absolutely.
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:37.599
There's a song called Red Dust by James Vincent McMorrow.
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:40.639
And if you listen to it, turn it all the way up.
00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:45.199
If you have bass in a speaker or anything, it's incredible.
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:50.320
I have a I have a death playlist, but that song is the song I want to go out on.
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:56.480
So I tell my friends they have to time it perfectly so that last note hits as I'm taking my last breath.
00:51:57.360 --> 00:51:58.400
No pressure.
00:51:58.800 --> 00:52:03.280
And the name of the name of the song is Red Dust.
00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:06.480
Red Dust by James Vincent McMorrow.
00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:07.679
Love it.
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:16.079
And what's a sound, not music, just a sound, that stops you cold?
00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:20.880
Oh, um, it's the sound of there's a river.
00:52:21.039 --> 00:52:25.360
Um at my I have a cabin in the middle of the forest in Georgia.
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:29.360
And every time I go home, uh, like I'll be home in a few days.
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:39.840
Every time I go home and I park my car and I get out and I just hear it, I just stop for I don't know how long, maybe it's maybe two whole minutes, and just listen to it.
00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:41.440
And it's it's incredible.
00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:44.239
And it's all day, always.
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:46.719
What a gift.
00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:57.760
So you've been in rooms where everything was left unsaid, and you've been in rooms where everything was finally said.
00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:01.119
What's the difference in the air?
00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:06.400
There is a surrendering.
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:18.159
There, there when when everything is finally said, there feels like this very sweet surrender that happens in that room where it's like everyone there takes a breath.
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:30.400
When things are left unsaid, you feel it, and it feels like like like summertime, and you and it's humid, and it's the south, and you're wearing a blanket.
00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:33.280
You know, it's it's tough.
00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:34.559
It is tough.
00:53:34.719 --> 00:53:47.280
But when everything is finally said, it just feels like okay, and and even the even the death people people will say it was hard, but it was beautiful.
00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:49.199
And I'm glad to have been there.
00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:56.159
And when things haven't been said, it's it takes a long time to get to that, to get to that phrase, if ever.
00:53:57.599 --> 00:53:58.159
Wow.
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:20.000
So my last question for you when you imagine the version of this world where children grow up fluent in loss, where small goodbyes are witnessed and named, what does that world look like to you?
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:28.639
Oh, it looks like a lot of holding, a lot of talking, a lot of communication, community, back to community.
00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:33.840
It looks like we've gotten rid of loneliness.
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:40.960
I think we we are so lonely right now, and it feels like that that world looks like less.
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:45.039
Maybe not got we haven't gotten rid of it, but there's so much less.
00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:49.199
If we're able to have those hard conversations, this is one of those the hardest conversations to have.
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:56.559
And I think if we're able to have that, then those other smaller heart, those other hard conversations will follow.
00:54:56.719 --> 00:54:59.679
Um, and it's, oh, I'm not alone.
00:54:59.920 --> 00:55:03.440
You know, it's finally someone said it, you know.
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:10.320
Um, like Steve, like Steve said, you know, it just took his friend to say something about his mom.
00:55:10.639 --> 00:55:13.440
And then the rest of the room said, oh, I got something too.
00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:19.840
But they were we're waiting for someone, you know, and it and and it looks like we're no longer waiting for someone.
00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:23.280
We're just able to just offer it, offer it up.
00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:25.280
Yeah.
00:55:26.400 --> 00:56:03.679
So one of the things I'm gonna take away is from our conversation, specifically listening to you again talk about community and that we don't need to be alone, and what can we do to pay attention so that we're present and listening and can help with that connection that would you know um really nourish a community.
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:06.320
That's what my takeaway is.
00:56:06.800 --> 00:56:08.960
Yeah, thank you so much for that.
00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:09.840
Thank you.
00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:11.199
It's been a joy.
00:56:11.360 --> 00:56:13.920
It's it's been, you know, I I love being here.
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:16.719
I love hearing the stories and talking to you all.
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:23.840
Um, and it it feels great to be here, like this is the community, like that you've built, you know, and people showing up.
00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:30.800
I think continuing this uh as often as possible is the is the way.
00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:42.480
Well, I can't thank you enough for your time, um, your stories, and um your gracious generosity.
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:47.760
It um, as I mentioned earlier, it really comes through in your book.
00:56:47.920 --> 00:56:55.599
Um, and I highly recommend if any of you are audible fans to listen to Darnell.
00:56:55.760 --> 00:57:03.039
You've experienced him this past hour, but listening to him read that book is really powerful.
00:57:03.280 --> 00:57:04.639
So thank you, Darnell.
00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:07.519
And um, I wish you the best.
00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:26.400
And um, I hope that um all of you are able to take away some things that you feel nourished and um realize, you know, the um the power that you have.
00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:28.239
So thank you again.
00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:29.599
Thank you so much.
00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:30.559
You're welcome.
00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:31.920
Bye.
00:57:34.719 --> 00:57:36.880
That's our conversation for today.
00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:43.760
Thank you for being here, for listening with an open heart, and for being willing to sit with the things that matter most.
00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:50.719
Every conversation like this one is practice for the transitions ahead and for living more fully right now.
00:57:50.960 --> 00:57:55.119
If something today landed with you, we'd love for you to carry it forward.
00:57:55.280 --> 00:57:57.679
Share this episode with someone who needs it.
00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:05.440
And if you want to go deeper between episodes, you can find your host, Patricia Sears, at the links in the show notes.
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:11.440
Until next time, you've been listening to Patricia Sears, your end of life navigator.
00:58:11.599 --> 00:58:14.480
She equips people for the conversations that matter most.
00:58:14.719 --> 00:58:17.199
No transition navigated alone.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:00.560
Welcome.
00:00:01.600 --> 00:00:08.240
This is in conversation with an end-of-life specialist, with your host Patricia Sears, your end-of-life navigator.
00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:10.640
We're so glad you're here with us today.
00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:16.320
Whether you're tuning in for the first time or you've been with us from the very beginning, thank you.
00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:19.280
Thank you for choosing to spend this time with us.
00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:27.039
These conversations take courage and a willingness to lean into what matters most, even when it's unfamiliar ground.
00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:28.480
That's the whole point.
00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:30.640
We don't have to navigate it alone.
00:00:30.879 --> 00:00:34.240
Today we've got something truly meaningful to share with you.
00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:35.679
Let's dive in.
00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:40.399
Hello everyone.
00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:42.079
Thank you for being here.
00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:59.039
I want to welcome the graceful lifers who are here, who are the special invitees for um for our audience to be able to ask questions of Darnell later in the hour.
00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:02.719
So I want to introduce Darnell.
00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:05.840
And he is a Death Doula.
00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:09.280
He is an Emmy nominated writer.
00:01:09.760 --> 00:01:17.359
He's the author of one of my, what's become one of my favorite books to listen to and to read and go back to.
00:01:17.599 --> 00:01:19.439
Never can say goodbye.
00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:21.439
I'm not gonna sing it.
00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:22.959
Maybe Darnell will.
00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:28.719
I think about singing it every every time I hear the title.
00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:29.680
Right.
00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:32.079
How could you not?
00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:44.959
And he's also um fifth-year faculty at Esselin Um Institute, and sincerely one of the clearest voices in this work.
00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:56.239
But first I'm going to ask Darnell, um, please tell us one thing, only one, that's not in your bio.
00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:09.919
One thing that is not in my bio is that I was on my way currently to becoming a ballet dancer.
00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:15.520
I've been, it's one of my regrets in life uh that I didn't do it when I was a teenager.
00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:20.639
Although I was asked by the ballet teacher because I was in a play um and I had to take her class.
00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:24.960
And she said, I really hope you stay here and stay in this class because you're actually really good.
00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:28.960
And I said, No, I'm 16, I'm a 16-year-old kid from Virginia.
00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:30.719
I'm I am not gonna do that.
00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:32.159
And I and it's one of my regrets.
00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:37.199
So I I just signed up and I'm so excited about taking that class.
00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:45.840
Um, and so hopefully the next time you, if we ever do this again, the next time you read that, it will be he has a show coming up soon.
00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:47.599
Wow.
00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:50.639
Can I ask where you're gonna take your lessons?
00:02:50.879 --> 00:02:54.479
Uh I'm doing it at a small studio in um in Georgia.
00:02:54.560 --> 00:03:01.520
I I when I I signed up originally a couple years ago uh at a at a place in New York, and I wish I remembered the name.
00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:02.960
Um but I I don't.
00:03:03.039 --> 00:03:06.560
Um, but it's a small studio in Georgia right outside of Atlanta.
00:03:07.599 --> 00:03:08.240
Wow.
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:10.000
How exciting.
00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:20.080
Well, I can't wait to hear more about it, and I will look forward to your posts as you progress and have fun with it.
00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:38.240
You know, um you've seen, we're both on Substack, and you've seen my posts as well as my Substack, that um how much I love what you wrote in Dying Empty about Dying Empty.
00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:50.240
And um, you know, dying empty catches the eye and the ear, um, in my opinion, more than what we often hear, uh, which is living fully.
00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:53.520
So can you talk to us a little bit more about that?
00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:54.639
Absolutely.
00:03:54.800 --> 00:04:01.360
You know, as a creative, especially for me, uh my goal is to leave it all here.
00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:10.479
There's so many ideas that I have, so many um things I want to say to the people I love, so many things I just want to say to people I've come across.
00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:24.720
Um, but I want to die knowing that I gave everything that I have, every every bit of my every ounce of my talent, my skills, abilities, um, to those who needed it, those who may find it later.
00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:39.680
Um, you know, I I often say if I write another book, if I get the opportunity to write and publish another book, that even if people grab it to you and use it to sweep up dirt, you know, in the kitchen, at least I got it out.
00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:43.439
You know, and it's not up to me how others, you know, take it.
00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:45.279
It's just up to me to get it out.
00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:46.560
And I really want to get that out.
00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:51.279
It's kind of the giving tree, you know, uh, this tree that just gave and gave and gave.
00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:53.199
Um, and at the end it was just a stump.
00:04:53.279 --> 00:05:01.120
And I really want to go out like that stump and you know, and and leave nothing uh inside.
00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:02.879
Uh and that that's the plan.
00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:04.399
I have in my phone right now.
00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:14.079
I I without exaggerating, I probably have you know 10, at least 10,000 notes in there of things I want to write, things I want to create, things I want to do.
00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:20.000
And it's as long as I'm working on getting to those things and and doing as much of it as possible.
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:25.279
Not not you know, not overwhelming myself, of course, but as it comes naturally.
00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:31.360
Um, so when I get to the end, I say, yeah, I I have nothing, nothing else.
00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:34.319
Well, and it's a practice, right?
00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:35.439
You know, absolutely.
00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:48.399
It's you know, you have to, and hopefully um folks listening today will, you know, take a pause and think, like, oh, what does that mean to me?
00:05:48.800 --> 00:06:19.199
And to be more aware of um continuing to, you know, give more and to and to say more, you know, dying empty, you know, saying making sure that to the best of your ability, you are connecting with um important people in your life and telling them all kinds of things about you know your journey and certainly how much you love them.
00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:20.399
Oh, absolutely.
00:06:20.560 --> 00:06:38.319
I mean, if if it even crosses your mind, you know, it doesn't have to be this thing that every day I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna do this thing, but when it crosses your mind to just honor that moment, even and say, oh, you know what, I should call her, or I should write this letter and send that off, or maybe I should sign up for this ballet class.
00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:41.279
You know, if it if it crosses the mind, do it.
00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:42.639
Honor the moment.
00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:45.120
Yes.
00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:58.079
So um you brought an object exercise to Eslan that you've described as um arriving somewhere else entirely.
00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:00.639
And can you walk me through that?
00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:04.000
The uh which which exercise is that?
00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:04.959
I'm sorry.
00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:12.319
It's the exercise that you described as arriving somewhere else entirely.
00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:13.279
Oh, yeah.
00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:36.000
Um, you know, I I it's sort of um this thing of thinking about how the things we leave behind, sort of in a way, um, where, you know, I'm I'm sort of providing this door for you, and it's for you to walk through that.
00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:43.759
Um, you know, I I get to Essalin, and a large part of my goal when I get to Essalin is to help people tell their own story.
00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:55.680
Like it's very important for me to as a one, as a writer, two, as a death dealer, and having been in these spaces um with people who have so much in there.
00:07:55.839 --> 00:08:00.959
Again, going back to the dying empty thing, it's there's so much we have in there to really get out.
00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:05.519
And I'm I'm here to help people tell those stories because I see what happens when we don't.
00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:19.040
Um, and so I I came to Esselin and I said, you know, think about, you know, the things that one that we have uh that we may leave behind when it's time to go.
00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:21.600
Um, but also think about the stories that we have.
00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:26.480
Think about the last time you felt truly alive.
00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:31.199
Um, think about who you were with, think about what you were doing.
00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.919
Um, and maybe if if you know the the date, when was that?
00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:40.639
Um and it's sort of returning to the self.
00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:49.759
Um and when we do that, it's kind of this, it's it's sort of this moment where it's like, oh that was joy.
00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:55.120
Um, and then going from there and saying, well, what did what have I drifted from in a way?
00:08:55.519 --> 00:09:06.320
And if if I'm able to see that drift, and and was it was it choice or was it um sacrifice um that that caused that drift?
00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:11.440
And then after that, it's how can we return to that and who's gonna support that?
00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:25.279
What's one small step I can take today to help me return to that um to that joy, to that moment of um uh of aliveness.
00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:33.919
And it's sort of giving folks this door to walk through and then see where they arrive um once they get once they get in there.
00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:44.159
Um but also taking this object as uh, and then and then we bring the object in and say, okay, you have this thing.
00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:45.279
Now what is it?
00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:46.879
Describe it to me.
00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:50.879
Tell me everything there is about it, you know, who gave it to you?
00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:52.399
Where did it come from?
00:09:52.639 --> 00:10:01.519
And once you start describing it, you you start talking about the person um that's attached to it, the person that um that you remember.
00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:06.480
Uh maybe it was a coffee mug that you love that your grandmother used to drink instant coffee.
00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:13.120
I think about my grandmother every time I see any sort of really sweet coffee that has too much sugar in it.
00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:15.360
And then I'll start writing about her.
00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:18.000
Um, and then you never know where it's gonna go.
00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:39.039
Um, but it's sort of it's this thing that you started at one place, you started at this object, you started at the joy, and then you started at this object, and then where you end up is somewhere completely different with a thousand words on a page about these moments that meant so much to you and these people who meant so much to you over your life.
00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:40.399
Um, and I love doing that.
00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:45.519
It's it's it's sort of, you know, we we forget the things that we forget so much.
00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:49.679
We forget the things that we used to remember, you know, it's this this wild thing.
00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:53.279
Um and I love to see where people take it.
00:10:53.360 --> 00:11:01.279
I love to see the the smile that comes across folks' faces when they um remember the people.
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:10.240
Um, because in the end, what I've noticed when I'm when I'm at the bedsides, it's you know, they they tell us the poets have said, you know, you can't make homes out of people.
00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:14.000
But I what I found at the end of life, it's it's always the people.
00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:17.200
When I have clients who say, you know, I want to go home.
00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:20.399
It's rarely, you know, at the very end.
00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:22.399
Um it's rarely home.
00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:25.279
It's usually I want to go back to that love that I remember.
00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:26.960
I want to go back to that person.
00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:36.720
Um, and so it's it's so great to see where they end up with these objects because it's always a person attached to them.
00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:39.440
Yeah.
00:11:39.840 --> 00:11:40.399
Wow.
00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:44.960
My mind's like completely full now of all kinds of things like that.
00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:53.200
Um so um before I move on, uh could you explain Esselin Institute?
00:11:53.440 --> 00:11:54.159
Where is it?
00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:55.519
Absolutely.
00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:59.679
So Esselin Institute um is it's a wellness retreat center.
00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:01.919
That's the best way I can describe it.
00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:11.840
Um it's in Big Sur, California, um, founded in the 60s um by Michael Murphy with the goal of really bringing out human potential.
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:15.120
Um and so so so many things were pioneered there.
00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:22.879
You have uh um Gestalt Therapy, um psychedelics, um, you know, Hunter S.
00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:31.039
Thompson was a was a gate, uh was the what do you gate guard, essentially, um there.
00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:39.440
Um Henry Miller, you know, and and then you had Joan Baez, Joni Mitchell, and like all these amazing, incredible beings.
00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:41.200
Alan Watts taught there.
00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:52.480
Um, and so it's this place where you come in now, what happens there is I I lead workshops on writing, telling your own story, unlocking and unblocking the creative within.
00:12:52.720 --> 00:13:06.240
Um, but there are so many incredible workshops that happen there for a week or just a weekend where you can come and really be in community with people who have a shared uh interest in so many things.
00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:15.200
Uh my one of my partners in one of the workshops I lead, she does uh somatic uh somatic movement and and yoga and things.
00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:27.279
And so we we recognize how the how those two things can kind of go hand in hand where she opens up to folks in the morning, and then I come in in the afternoon and say, okay, let's write for the next two hours.
00:13:27.519 --> 00:13:52.000
And so many people come in and they say, you know, well, I haven't written in years, and I don't think I'm a writer, and then these folks start sharing, and you and I think we forgot how important it is to have someone there to listen um and and to bounce ideas off of either, you know, and these folks start sharing it's some of the most incredible stories and and and words I I've ever heard, but it's an incredible place.
00:13:52.080 --> 00:14:01.360
Um, there's always a workshop going on, and so if you just look it up, you could you'll likely find something that fits you, um, if it's my workshop or not.
00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:03.440
Wow.
00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:13.679
And you know, when you were just talking about the listening, that is like such an essential part of what we do, right?
00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:55.279
As end of life um or death doolas and end-of-life navigators, it's really um helpful to the special person who's dying, but also, you know, the dynamics I found, you know, with um caregivers and loved ones is to, you know, um maybe model the practice of listening and how um fear can you know be um let go in a way um because you're paying attention and that all leads to presence.
00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:56.639
Absolutely.
00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:09.679
I you know, I think we sometimes we one forget how important listening is, but two, we we all think we are great listeners because we are there.
00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:17.360
And sometimes it's important to remember that listening sometimes is just showing up and being quiet and saying nothing.
00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:27.519
Uh and a lot of the listening, a lot of the listening that we're doing is trying is actually us trying to fix something for someone.
00:15:27.679 --> 00:15:34.480
Um, and it's important to know that we're not there to fix, we're there to simply listen, to simply be present.
00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:36.320
That's the biggest part of this work.
00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:47.440
Um, you know, I've been doing it for so long, and I learned it from my grandma, just being there and not saying anything and reaching out when I when when needed or giving a shoulder when needed.
00:15:47.519 --> 00:16:05.840
So many times I've shown up and said, listen, I have no idea what I can do for you, but I'll sit here on the other end of this couch, and if you want to talk, I'll be yeah, um what a gift your grandma was for you in so many ways.
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:13.120
Um, but I love you know the different things that you've shared in your book about her and her influence with you.
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:28.879
And, you know, as I was, you know, just um talking about, you know, how she was so influential in her sincere and authentic modeling of presence.
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:59.919
And of um, to me, the other thing that struck me was um she didn't seem afraid of the process, and she seemed to be um available and tuned in, and also, you know, um including you at you know, on many different occasions so that you, you know, learned watching and listening to her.
00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:01.679
Yeah, absolutely.
00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:08.880
You know, I I think part of that, a lot of that, um, I'm sure looking back was because I was a curious kid.
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:10.960
I was always asking questions.
00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.880
Um, but and also I come from a family that just didn't want to talk about them.
00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:16.960
And so it was me and her.
00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:21.279
And so when I asked the question, she was more than happy to answer them.
00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:35.200
Um, but when she was, even when she wasn't paying attention, like you said, you know, I I noticed how just unafraid she was in those moments, even the small, uncomfortable moments.
00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:36.240
She was just there.
00:17:36.319 --> 00:17:40.799
And she would say, Okay, um, well, tell me more about that.
00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:42.799
Or and and she would ask questions.
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:46.480
And I I I remember looking and saying, okay, I need to do that.
00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:47.599
Okay, and then do that.
00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:49.599
And then when that when that happens, do that.
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:55.279
And and so when I was 12 was the first time I helped um with her.
00:17:55.440 --> 00:17:57.440
Um, I helped someone transition.
00:17:57.519 --> 00:17:58.480
It was a cousin.
00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:03.279
Um, but then that next year at 13, I volunteered at the hospice, the local hospice nearby.
00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:07.359
And not because it was a hospice, but because it was something to do after school.
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:12.319
Um, but I remember being in there because I wasn't, you know, I wasn't the this death duel.
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:17.759
I was just this kid who helped with art arts and crafts and put calendars in rooms, right?
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:24.240
Um, but when I would go into the rooms, people would say, could you just sit for a while and talk to me?
00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:26.000
There's no one comes to visit.
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.440
And I thought, sure, yeah, I I guess I could do that.
00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:37.759
Um, and and everything I'd watched my grandmother do over the years just clicked in, and it was like, okay, what would she do here?
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:39.599
Or what would she say here?
00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:41.119
Or should I just be quiet?
00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:52.640
And and I I mimicked her exactly until it became my own um thing, you know, and and and found myself in that work many years later.
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:54.880
It wasn't, you know, right away, of course.
00:18:55.119 --> 00:19:04.400
Um, I think it wasn't until about 10 years ago that I realized that this was actually something people did with intention.
00:19:04.720 --> 00:19:09.119
You know, up until then it was just, well, yeah, we of course we take care of people.
00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:10.799
We take care of people we love.
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:14.400
This isn't work, this is just what we are supposed to do.
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:18.799
Um, and even now, that's what I and I still approach the work the same way.
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:26.799
It's you know, just taking care of people we love, or you know, as the um the one saying, we're all just walking each other home, right?
00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:30.319
And so it's just walking each other home.
00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:33.359
Indeed.
00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:34.960
Boy, yeah.
00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:52.799
Um, like I said, you are um a fortunate one in that you had your grandma because um a lot of us don't have that person, or we haven't had that person yet in our lives, you know, whether we were young or even now.
00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:58.799
So um I'm so glad that you shared her in your book with us.
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:05.759
You know, you've said that um sorrow and laughter um move through the same room.
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.359
Uh most people treat those as opposites, though.
00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:16.160
And what have you watched happen in a room when both arrive at once?
00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:19.519
Oh, I I've watched community form.
00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:24.640
I watched how we can take how we take care of each other in those spaces.
00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:36.319
Um, when so many of us are so are just used to going off alone and thinking that we're the only, no one knows the sorrow.
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:39.039
No one understands the sorrow we're going through.
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:47.279
Um, but when we can do that in a room together, when someone we're we're here falling apart and someone across the room is laughing, which happens a lot.
00:20:47.359 --> 00:20:56.960
Like I, you know, after the funeral, you have the repass in a lot of cultures and a lot of families, or um, or just the the part after where there's food.
00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:01.839
Um and a lot of times that's where this happens first.
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:12.319
You know, this is the first place this happens because while someone's you know falling apart and telling stories, uh, you know, that that's that's just simply killing them inside.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:16.480
There's someone over here telling a funny story about that same person.
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:23.759
And it's oh and here we can we can all get together and and put together, you know, this.
00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:31.920
We all we we don't know someone fully individually, but when we get together, we can put that person together as much as we can.
00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:34.960
We all have a different story, a different version.
00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:50.319
And in that, you can watch these folks just sort of hold each other and you know, find reasons to um to smile, um, and even new reasons to fall apart when you get home.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:51.680
It's like, oh, I didn't know that.
00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:52.640
Why didn't I know that?
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:56.559
And then you go in probably in your shower, because that's how grief works too.
00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:59.599
Um, but it's it is this building of community.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:25:43.519
it's oh I'm not alone it's we're so used to doing this by ourselves this is none of this should be done alone um and so in those rooms where it happens um that happens but also we can we get a new definition of what grief looks like you know a lot of times we are so used to like grief for us looks like again the falling apart the the crying the I need to be held up um you know we got the the those seven stages that we realize aren't aren't true you know it's grief isn't that you know but um when we're in those rooms we see that oh grief is also joy and grief is also laughter and grief is oh they just left the house to just they put on some running shoes with this with this funeral suit and they're gonna go run five miles that's grief too um and so we get to form our own definition um about what that thing is about what that is and um so it's beautiful but I think the most important thing for me that I've seen um and for me has been the community aspect of it and um having people who now know how much it hurts uh how much I'm hurting and I know how much they're hurting and no and no one here can say that we were alone in in that wow yeah thank you it's very enlightening and again from in all about me land prompts me to pay attention more um because it's very liberating to have all those different aspects of um stories and news stories to say oh wow oh either and sometimes it's like a puzzle right it's like oh that's why this happened that's why she moved here or you know that kind of thing and now you have a gift that you can give um to other people oh absolutely absolutely absolutely even you know I I have your real quick story I was with a friend um just last week in Michigan and so for years I've been going to Burning Man right in in Nevada and it's it's an incredible time but I've heard the story from some of my campmates at Burning Man about this about uh a friend of theirs or this guy they met there who died there um he jumped into the fire um and no one knew why for years I've been here we we tell this story every year you know it's a part of that grief thing and that community thing where this story comes up every year and just last week in Michigan I was talking to someone who'd never been the Burning Man but she knew him and she was able to put pieces together that no one that I've been having telling the story with for years no one knew and so it was it was like oh and just just this past week you know I've been in Montreal and one of my campmates was on the trip with me and I finally got to sit down with her and say hey so you know that story we've been telling this is why this thing happened and she's like oh now it makes sense and so it's it's the listening it's the talking it's being in community and and and being able to share those stories um even when you think they're not like oh this this will go nowhere but yeah again no one know you know to say we know someone fully is to really reduce someone's life and I think you know we have to admit that we don't know the full thing and so looking for answers in other places is a natural thing and just being curious and keeping that conversation going I think too is an important thing to hold on to.
00:25:44.960 --> 00:26:34.799
Yeah and I'm listening to you and I'm realizing too um the power of being with you know sometimes when you know more folks that we're sitting with you know understand and feel that we're being with them opens up you know um all kinds of sharing yeah absolutely I think I think we have to keep doing that like just always like again it's it's we're not alone in this and to always to always be open to that always if you want to share share if there's something you feel you know say it out loud um do the thing hold the space for the person next to you to do the same thing.
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:37.440
Thank you.
00:26:38.480 --> 00:27:09.920
So um as you know I um was particularly um taken with and impressed with the um obsession you had at Aspen Ideas and especially with one of the things that you said was that we need to give children space um for their small goodbyes and that millions of children will experience a loss close to them.
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:44.720
What are we getting wrong and what does getting right look like yeah absolutely so you know um also so my full time for those who don't know my full-time job is also to I write television for kids um and so um I answer from both being a death doer and being a children's television writer is one thing we're getting wrong is not confronting our own discomfort with death and our own fears around it.
00:27:45.039 --> 00:28:06.480
Because a lot of times when kids come to us and they want to have those conversations and parents sort of shut the conversation down it's because they are afraid of getting the answer wrong or andor they're afraid of um death and dying and the that discomfort itself.
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:14.000
And so it's finding out what the root of that is for for those of us who are afraid to have those conversations.
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:17.599
But also we're assuming the kids can't handle it.
00:28:17.759 --> 00:29:38.720
We're assuming the kids um are having a hard time with it and what I've I found the exact opposite you know kids want to have these conversations they're so aware of what's happening in the world what's happening around them excuse me they're losing friends they're losing grandparents they're losing brothers sisters parents and no one's talking to them about it because we think they can't handle it yet I'll wait a couple of years um when they can handle it just fine and and need to because what happens is they turn into the adults who are very afraid um who can't say uh who who are finding it hard to say that final goodbye and so you know at Aspen when I talked about the the the small goodbyes we've been saying goodbye throughout our life you know but we we never acknowledge that and we never honored those goodbyes like you know going into summer you know we're saying goodbye to our friends for a few months um summer ending you know that's an amazing time the dog died the goldfish died a grandparent died maybe when we were younger or um you know friends and uh and so you have all of these little things and and and everything that's a that's related to grief that's not death loss.
00:29:39.039 --> 00:29:50.400
Kids are also losing pieces of their identity just as we are you know when we lose a job you know we have to wrestle with who are we now kids have to do the same thing.
00:29:50.880 --> 00:30:00.480
And so getting them so what I try to do as a writer is try to get them to notice those little things that they're saying goodbye to and really honor those moments.
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:08.079
Because if we if they can do that over the course of their life when they get to the end it's oh this yeah this isn't so bad.
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:34.319
I've been saying goodbye for a very long time you know um when that job changes it's oh here's another little here's another thing that I have to grieve I know I have tools for grief because of this happened when I was five you know and and so just providing them with those tools but yeah we are we're assuming that they they're not smart enough and and it's not fair.
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:40.480
And you know I think like I said the numbers right now are for death loss for a child.
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:47.359
There are about seven to eight million kids in the US alone who have experienced the death of someone very close to them.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:31:03.920
We're talking parent sibling uh very close friend um and no one's talking about you know there are people talking thankfully there are people stepping up to talk about it but it's not not on the scale that it needs to be happening.
00:31:05.279 --> 00:32:32.240
Well this is going back to a couple of things that we've already talked about right is um being intentional about a practice of recognizing and acknowledging and naming a loss you know if it's you know like you said friends because now you're going to a new school you were in elementary school together for so many years but now people are going the our friends are going to different middle schools or high schools and that kind of thing um and certainly you know when pets die that um you know we again acknowledge that as a loss and um you know say it out loud and one of the other things that you mentioned in that particular conversation at Aspen was the the power of or it's kind of like um shares power with children in saying somebody died instead of they went to sleep or you know they you know all the other euphemisms and um that really struck me and sat with me as well.
00:32:32.640 --> 00:33:36.400
Yeah I mean it's important to you know when when having these conversations um with them to be very clear about it and and if it changed it's fine to change it down the line once they have an understanding like I I've been talking about it with my son since he's since he could talk really because death was a part of his journey into this world or at least mortality was right and so um we've been having those conversations and so now when I talk about it I can say oh oh yeah you know someone passed away or this happened but in the beginning it was oh they died because it was important for him to understand what that means because we say these things we say oh yeah you know your your great grandmother uh went to sleep and just didn't wake up and now you have a kid who's afraid to sleep at night you know and it's and that's it happens so often and um and then you have a bigger problem on your hands you know and it's like we could have got this right the first time and then you can go back to whatever it is.
00:33:36.960 --> 00:34:02.480
You know but and kids do not fear it if if they if they see that we are comfortable or or not even comfortable if they see that we're able to have this conversation with them they open up and they they ask questions and you know some kids will just ask the question go off and you know like I said if they're asking they'll go off and do a cartwheel jump in the pool and they may come back three days later and ask another question.
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:35.519
But it's like oh okay yeah that yeah that's fine but I I get to talk to kids often and about death and they say oh yeah um yeah well when my dog died this is what happened and I'm like oh and they say but no one wants to talk to me about it at home and I'm like oh and you see that they are like very aware of the entire process it's like every show you've seen that that uses like the birds and the bees story right it's like oh I sit down and talk to my kids about it and they sit down and the kids like oh I know all about that part I'm asking about this.
00:34:35.679 --> 00:34:44.400
And it's so they're they're fully aware it's just us who have to um step up just a bit to the play.
00:34:44.719 --> 00:35:03.920
Well and one more thing before we move on is you know I think it's really important what you know you have shared is when kids ask us what happened or you know how does this work it's okay to say out loud I don't know I don't have an answer to that right now.
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:11.679
But you know it going to that instead of like speak to the hand no absolutely go do something.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:15.760
And we and and it's an opportunity for us to find the answer together.
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:24.559
So then you have you know a moment where oh we all have you know this cell phone or this the internet or we can go to the library and figure it out.
00:35:24.880 --> 00:35:27.360
But it's a it's a learning moment for us both.
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:29.760
Yeah yeah I love it.
00:35:30.400 --> 00:36:00.000
All right so I want to um bring in the Graceful lifers now um you've been holding your questions and I know you have them so we have about 10 minutes and um I will unmute you one at a time I ask for you to look at the bottom of your screen when you see raise hand um because that way I've got a sound and um a visual so I can call on you.
00:36:00.320 --> 00:37:33.039
So um let's get started and then shooting so um I was uh interested in asking uh I I'm I'm thinking of an experience where um when my mom passed I was living in Washington DC and she was in Vermont and uh so I I came back to the funeral and to my amazement two of my friends from work uh came up flew up to Vermont and found their way to my little hometown uh they were both big city guys um and a conversation that they started had to do with um they'd never met my mother but they'd heard me talk about her so many times that uh Vince a good friend um said I I felt like I know her from your stories and he told one of the stories and everybody in the room that was family started to talk about how she was and that was kind of a magic moment.
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:49.920
My son was there and so he got to to know a different part of my mother and it was you know there's a there's a there's a a line in a Christa Gustafenson song Partly Truth and Partly Fiction.
00:37:51.920 --> 00:37:56.320
And you know it's a beautiful place when those two things come together.
00:37:56.559 --> 00:38:06.480
And I I would like to hear an experience that you may have had where truth and fiction came together almost like a magic.
00:38:07.280 --> 00:42:20.000
Oh that's uh thanks for sharing that Steve yeah thank you for sharing that's beautiful um you know I I see these stories it's sort of uh my grandfather personally I comes to mind when he was alive like I he died in 2017 and one of my wishes in life is that I'd known him more as an adult um you know for me um but we had we had an amazing time um toward the end of his life um but he was this huge person um just in everyone's life like his friends family members so I grew up on more stories of him than I than that were he walked from and you you you live you live in DC and I'm so I'm from Charlottesville Virginia which is about two and a half hours away but these stories of him walking to Washington DC on the side of the road yeah like these incredible stories like huge he was in he was in New York and and walked all of New York until he he met some random man at a bar who knew his aunt and then he told him how to get to Harlem and then like these fantastic uh incredible stories that I knew were absolutely false but they they aided in this um sort of like this this myth and this legend of him that we still we still tell these stories and I think they're still beautiful there and and they're a part of him you know it's what made him him there's an incredible film if you haven't seen it called um uh big fish um if anyone's seen it but it's this story this um this this young man grew up always hearing these crazy stories that his dad would tell everywhere would tell him at his wedding tell him at the at parties and the son was tired of them because they would be about the giant he he met and walked the the earth with um the witch whose eye he looked into and he could see when how he was going to die um and how he worked at a circus for years um and then the father at the end you meet all of these people who he thought was a lie he thought they were all lies but in the end you find out that oh this was actually a part of the story there was a little exaggeration uh but it it it really made the man um and so I I love those I think those are just as important you know uh we we the way we remember things um and how we add to add to stories for for dramatics and and for for fun I think it's it's beautiful uh and I think we should continue to do that um but you know it it it's a beautiful thing yeah practicing oral history is a is an art that um is unfortunately going away too rapidly Judy thank you nice to be with you um Darnell just a curious question I'm sure you have but have you witnessed or could you tell us about moments or a moments at the bedside that you experienced that kind of changed your whole thought projectory about death and dying and or and or continuing bonds that we have with the people that are dying yeah absolutely um I think when I was nine um the first thing um when I was nine my grandmother's sister was dying and I I wasn't present for that um but what happened my mom had come home to tell me um what was going on at the hospital and again I was this curious kid and so the rest of my cousins who were the same age or a little bit older a little bit younger they wouldn't dare ask what was happening at the hospital and what cancer was like or any of that but I was very curious and my mom came home one day and she says oh well you know today she said that she saw her mom her mom had came to come to visit now my great aunt's mother had died years before and she said you know she came to visit and she said she was coming back once her room was ready.
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:39.519
And I remember being nine years old thinking well she's dead does that mean she's gonna die and then growing up and watching my uh at 12 watching my cousin die and and now really being in this work I see it so often where the people I'm with are reaching for their loved ones.
00:42:39.679 --> 00:42:49.440
I I'm sometimes sitting there and they'll look to the to you know the space right next to me and start a a conversation with whoever it is they see there.
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:58.159
And like I was my friend's Death Doolan he would stop talking to me and just look over and have a full conversation with his grandmother who died years before.
00:42:58.320 --> 00:44:04.559
And I say oh is your grandma back and he say yeah she's right there and I think oh how beautiful okay I'll leave the room and give you all some space and you know it really showed me that oh you know there is a comfort that comes for so many of us at the end of life and it's led me to ask you know several people questions not even not just the dying when I'm able to be in the room but um friends and people I meet along the way and even at panels I'm like who who is it you want to come back for you when your time comes if someone's gonna come back who do you want that to be um I had you know there was a story of uh one guy who said you know he wanted his his dog when he was a kid there was a dog he loved so much he's like I hope my dog comes back and then right at the end he looks over he's like no not that dog you know he was like no the other one you know and it's like oh you gotta be more specific um but um I I see that and it's beautiful but I've also seen some really hard things too you know um I had clients who are very alone.
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:14.639
And some who have family, who who's the a family that's there, but makes them feel lonely.
00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:20.400
And so a lot of it, a lot of the work I do is to how can I keep this from happening?
00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:21.679
How can I prevent this?
00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:28.639
I have a client now who, you know, I get there because I want to support him at the end of his life.
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:31.519
But his, I'm like, what can I help you with?
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:39.199
And he's only focused on, well, I want you to help my wife, actually, because she doesn't know how to be here for me.
00:44:39.440 --> 00:44:44.960
And I think she's just distancing herself, but it's going to be hard when I when I'm done.
00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:51.840
And so it's like, okay, how can I make her not make him feel so lonely in this?
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:54.960
Um, and so that, you know, it's it's all of that.
00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:57.679
And I try to find solutions.
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:00.559
Um, and and then it it's client to client.
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:02.800
Like what worked here doesn't work here.
00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:14.400
Um, and so overall, it's going in and saying, you know, I I don't know the answer to any of this before I get there, and I hope I figure it out, you know, before I leave.
00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:15.360
Um, also.
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:17.360
Wow.
00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:18.480
Thank you.
00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:19.119
Thank you.
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:20.880
Christina, welcome.
00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:22.559
You have a question?
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:24.320
Uh yes.
00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:38.000
Uh, Darnell, I thought it was interesting when you said how kids who were basically learned to fear death from their parents become adults who are afraid of death.
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:53.199
Um what what happens when say you're you're you're being a death doula for someone and their adult children are still afraid.
00:45:53.360 --> 00:46:02.880
And as you said, well, even the example you just gave with the wife, how do you um bridge those those two?
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:11.119
And I you probably already answered it, but I'm just I'm thinking in uh you know, through the generations basically.
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:11.679
Yeah.
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:14.719
Like how do you it's it's hard.
00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:18.559
Um, and honestly, sometimes it does not work.
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:31.599
Um sometimes it it goes from not being able to help them to like my a lot of times my job doesn't stop at the death, it carries on to support the family.
00:46:31.760 --> 00:46:49.760
Um, so it goes from me trying to help them um have that conversation with their parent who's dying to now helping them with the regret of not doing the things that they wish they'd done when the parent was alive that I told them they needed to do.
00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:53.519
Um, and so I, you know, and it's really client to client.
00:46:53.599 --> 00:47:09.599
I have a client now, a sister and brother, and um the sister called me, but her brother cannot bring himself to even say the word death, although he'd moved way across the country to help her take care of his mom in hospice.
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:13.280
You know, when I say, well, listen, you know, there's not much time.
00:47:13.360 --> 00:47:14.960
I don't want to talk about that, you know.
00:47:15.039 --> 00:47:17.840
And he goes and he tells her, everything, no, everything's gonna be fine.
00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:19.119
But she's not dying now.
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:26.239
And and I know that what's gonna happen is he's gonna miss out on the goodbye that he could have this very beautiful goodbye that he could have.
00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:31.840
He's gonna miss out on asking the questions that he could ask, getting the answers he he may need.
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:39.199
Um and he hears me, and I know he hears me, and we talk about it, but he just can't bring himself to do it.
00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:42.559
And I, you know, there's not much else that I can do.
00:47:42.639 --> 00:47:45.840
I'm I'm pulling out every skill and ability that I have.
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:58.320
Um, but then I sometimes I have to go to the to the the fear and the and the guilt and the heart of it and say, listen, if you don't do this now, this is this is what you're going to feel.
00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:00.960
This is what this is this is what's going to happen.
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:06.320
Here's someone you can talk to, and I'll bring in people who who've been in his shoes before and have that regret.
00:48:06.400 --> 00:48:22.480
I have um a friend whose mom was dying and she had three children, and she told all three, she said, Listen, if there is anything you want to know, you ask me now, and I will answer any questions, and only one of them did, and the other two said, No, it's good, you're gonna be all right.
00:48:22.719 --> 00:48:32.320
And she died, and now they they I you know they walk around with these questions that no one else can answer, and the regret that they have around that.
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:36.320
And so sometimes I have to just really go to the heart of it, especially if there's no time left.
00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:48.079
It's like, listen, there is no time, this is where we are, this is the truth of what's going to happen, this is what you have to do, or you will regret it for the rest of your life.
00:48:50.719 --> 00:48:53.440
Yeah, but it's tough, it's it's hard.
00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:58.559
And I wish, I wish it always worked, but it it doesn't.
00:48:58.719 --> 00:49:10.000
Like my, you know, and even in my own family, I my dad is one of those people who will never, like I'm I'm slowly breaking them down, but I think he'll get to the end before I can get them all the way there.
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:13.119
And he refuses to talk about death.
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:16.559
Um, but I will slip it in every chance I get.
00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:20.320
Wow, that's great.
00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:23.360
So thank you for your questions.
00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:27.599
And um we're gonna shift uh a little bit here.
00:49:27.920 --> 00:49:34.079
Um, I have six questions that I wrote specifically for Darnell.
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:42.000
And I'm gonna ask Darnell to answer them quickly and honestly as you can.
00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:45.440
And um, here we go with the six questions.
00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:52.719
What's the last thing that made you cry that had nothing to do with death?
00:49:53.039 --> 00:49:57.360
Oh my gosh, the last thing that made me cry that had nothing to do with death.
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:07.440
Um was I was uh the other night I was standing on a balcony and just looking at the new moon.
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:34.320
And it was it's uh I'm thinking about it now, and I hope I don't cry on this on this podcast, but it was so beautiful, and I realized I like I think it made me think back to every new moon, and I say, I think I've I've been very emotional looking at it every time, like when it when the moon is just starting over and it's just that little slither, that little slither, it's like, oh my gosh.
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:36.800
Um but that was it, it was the moon.
00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:38.639
Wow, thank you.
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:45.280
Yeah, it's a quite an auspicious, auspicious new moon this year, um, at this time.
00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:53.519
So what did you believe about grief at the beginning that you've had to completely unlearn?
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:59.039
Oh, in the beginning, I thought grief had an ending.
00:50:59.119 --> 00:51:06.880
Uh, you know, I thought that we got to that acceptance stage and we accepted it, and then we never returned to it again.
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:22.000
And that when I was fully aware of grief and how it worked in my body, I knew that I had to throw that away and it will always change and that it will always be there.
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:30.559
Is there a piece of music that you'd want playing in the room when it's your time?
00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:31.840
Absolutely.
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:37.599
There's a song called Red Dust by James Vincent McMorrow.
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:40.639
And if you listen to it, turn it all the way up.
00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:45.199
If you have bass in a speaker or anything, it's incredible.
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:50.320
I have a I have a death playlist, but that song is the song I want to go out on.
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:56.480
So I tell my friends they have to time it perfectly so that last note hits as I'm taking my last breath.
00:51:57.360 --> 00:51:58.400
No pressure.
00:51:58.800 --> 00:52:03.280
And the name of the name of the song is Red Dust.
00:52:03.519 --> 00:52:06.480
Red Dust by James Vincent McMorrow.
00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:07.679
Love it.
00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:16.079
And what's a sound, not music, just a sound, that stops you cold?
00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:20.880
Oh, um, it's the sound of there's a river.
00:52:21.039 --> 00:52:25.360
Um at my I have a cabin in the middle of the forest in Georgia.
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:29.360
And every time I go home, uh, like I'll be home in a few days.
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:39.840
Every time I go home and I park my car and I get out and I just hear it, I just stop for I don't know how long, maybe it's maybe two whole minutes, and just listen to it.
00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:41.440
And it's it's incredible.
00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:44.239
And it's all day, always.
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:46.719
What a gift.
00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:57.760
So you've been in rooms where everything was left unsaid, and you've been in rooms where everything was finally said.
00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:01.119
What's the difference in the air?
00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:06.400
There is a surrendering.
00:53:06.559 --> 00:53:18.159
There, there when when everything is finally said, there feels like this very sweet surrender that happens in that room where it's like everyone there takes a breath.
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:30.400
When things are left unsaid, you feel it, and it feels like like like summertime, and you and it's humid, and it's the south, and you're wearing a blanket.
00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:33.280
You know, it's it's tough.
00:53:33.599 --> 00:53:34.559
It is tough.
00:53:34.719 --> 00:53:47.280
But when everything is finally said, it just feels like okay, and and even the even the death people people will say it was hard, but it was beautiful.
00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:49.199
And I'm glad to have been there.
00:53:49.280 --> 00:53:56.159
And when things haven't been said, it's it takes a long time to get to that, to get to that phrase, if ever.
00:53:57.599 --> 00:53:58.159
Wow.
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:20.000
So my last question for you when you imagine the version of this world where children grow up fluent in loss, where small goodbyes are witnessed and named, what does that world look like to you?
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:28.639
Oh, it looks like a lot of holding, a lot of talking, a lot of communication, community, back to community.
00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:33.840
It looks like we've gotten rid of loneliness.
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:40.960
I think we we are so lonely right now, and it feels like that that world looks like less.
00:54:41.519 --> 00:54:45.039
Maybe not got we haven't gotten rid of it, but there's so much less.
00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:49.199
If we're able to have those hard conversations, this is one of those the hardest conversations to have.
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:56.559
And I think if we're able to have that, then those other smaller heart, those other hard conversations will follow.
00:54:56.719 --> 00:54:59.679
Um, and it's, oh, I'm not alone.
00:54:59.920 --> 00:55:03.440
You know, it's finally someone said it, you know.
00:55:03.599 --> 00:55:10.320
Um, like Steve, like Steve said, you know, it just took his friend to say something about his mom.
00:55:10.639 --> 00:55:13.440
And then the rest of the room said, oh, I got something too.
00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:19.840
But they were we're waiting for someone, you know, and it and and it looks like we're no longer waiting for someone.
00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:23.280
We're just able to just offer it, offer it up.
00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:25.280
Yeah.
00:55:26.400 --> 00:56:03.679
So one of the things I'm gonna take away is from our conversation, specifically listening to you again talk about community and that we don't need to be alone, and what can we do to pay attention so that we're present and listening and can help with that connection that would you know um really nourish a community.
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:06.320
That's what my takeaway is.
00:56:06.800 --> 00:56:08.960
Yeah, thank you so much for that.
00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:09.840
Thank you.
00:56:10.320 --> 00:56:11.199
It's been a joy.
00:56:11.360 --> 00:56:13.920
It's it's been, you know, I I love being here.
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:16.719
I love hearing the stories and talking to you all.
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:23.840
Um, and it it feels great to be here, like this is the community, like that you've built, you know, and people showing up.
00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:30.800
I think continuing this uh as often as possible is the is the way.
00:56:32.239 --> 00:56:42.480
Well, I can't thank you enough for your time, um, your stories, and um your gracious generosity.
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:47.760
It um, as I mentioned earlier, it really comes through in your book.
00:56:47.920 --> 00:56:55.599
Um, and I highly recommend if any of you are audible fans to listen to Darnell.
00:56:55.760 --> 00:57:03.039
You've experienced him this past hour, but listening to him read that book is really powerful.
00:57:03.280 --> 00:57:04.639
So thank you, Darnell.
00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:07.519
And um, I wish you the best.
00:57:08.000 --> 00:57:26.400
And um, I hope that um all of you are able to take away some things that you feel nourished and um realize, you know, the um the power that you have.
00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:28.239
So thank you again.
00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:29.599
Thank you so much.
00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:30.559
You're welcome.
00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:31.920
Bye.
00:57:34.719 --> 00:57:36.880
That's our conversation for today.
00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:43.760
Thank you for being here, for listening with an open heart, and for being willing to sit with the things that matter most.
00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:50.719
Every conversation like this one is practice for the transitions ahead and for living more fully right now.
00:57:50.960 --> 00:57:55.119
If something today landed with you, we'd love for you to carry it forward.
00:57:55.280 --> 00:57:57.679
Share this episode with someone who needs it.
00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:05.440
And if you want to go deeper between episodes, you can find your host, Patricia Sears, at the links in the show notes.
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:11.440
Until next time, you've been listening to Patricia Sears, your end of life navigator.
00:58:11.599 --> 00:58:14.480
She equips people for the conversations that matter most.
00:58:14.719 --> 00:58:17.199
No transition navigated alone.
