00:00:00
Speaker 1: Let us get ourselves to the huddle right now. We have Liam here, who is a lawyer and a National Party member, and Oscar Kightley, artist and local government politician. Hello, you two.
00:00:11
Speaker 2: G'day, Heather. G'day, Liam.
00:00:12
Speaker 1: Now, Oscar, tell me, how bad have the Greens made this today?
00:00:17
Speaker 2: Well, gosh, you know, one thing we do know is that you're not going to diminish or help New Zealand's gang problem by ignoring them. as we've done or by increasing punishments and i think actually one way to you know help these people leave gangs and is actually to is to get them all connected with the community and and if that takes meetings and politicians.
00:00:43
Speaker 1: In yeah but the problem just to be clear the problem is not the meeting i don't have a problem with anybody meeting with gangs that's fine Should you have a picture with the gangs and then put your fingers up, your thumbs up and go, yeah, awesome. And then the next day when you're in trouble for it, you go, and you know what, we're also going to send them some millions for the meth program and we're going to remove the gang patch ban. Is this good politics.
00:01:04
Speaker 2: Is it? A picture is such a part of the daily language of everything. It doesn't mean what it used to mean. There's Everybody has pictures with everyone, and, you know, I don't see that as.
00:01:21
Speaker 3: I don't know.
00:01:22
Speaker 1: Do you have a picture with a neo-Nazi?
00:01:25
Speaker 2: No, but I've had a.
00:01:26
Speaker 1: Why not? Everybody has pictures with everyone.
00:01:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, fair point, fair point. But, yeah, I don't know. I just think, you know, gangs... We made gangs. This country made gangs through wards of the state all these years ago, all these fraud policies, all these things like gangs.
00:01:43
Speaker 1: Some of these men, not necessarily the ones in the picture, some of these men rape women.
00:01:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, but, God, you meet church leaders and some of those, you know, some of their colleagues do awful stuff too. You know, do you punish a whole community because of the actions of some of them?
00:02:05
Speaker 1: You want to have a picture with Brian Tamaki?
00:02:08
Speaker 2: I would. Would you?
00:02:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would.
00:02:11
Speaker 2: I mean, I've met him, I've shaken hands with him, and I would sit down with him and try and hear what he's on about.
00:02:18
Speaker 1: Anyway, you're not the one who's got to be punished for this.
00:02:20
Speaker 2: Liam?
00:02:21
Speaker 1: How bad is this for the Greens? Like, on a scale of, you know, oh, look, old mate was stealing stuff from Scotties down the road and nothing really happened to the polls, through to materia ture, the welfare fraud, and the polls crashed. Where are we?
00:02:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really bad. I mean, I take a really different view to Oscar. I just think Look, I mean, it's very easy to romanticise and make excuses, but at the end of the day, these are organisations that are best known for extortion, for drug distribution, for rape, for murder. And time and time again, the political left gets its wool pulled over its eyes. It's like Al Capone. Al Capone had a few soup kitchens. So all of a sudden his PR goes up a little bit. But at the end of the day, these are still organisations that are fundamentally about the commission of violent crime and crime that's within the vulnerable communities that people claim to care about. But the real reason it's a problem for the Greens right now is that at the moment, as of the debate a couple of nights ago, you saw the Opportunity Party really starting to take it to the Greens, to contest the Greens. for that type of environmentally conscious young person vote. And they were very strong on saying, right, we actually completely reject this idea that gangs are a legitimate part of the political discussion, a legitimate part of the political community. And again, so at a time when the Greens are reading high, they're actually opening themselves up to lose votes to the Opportunity Party in particular over this issue.
00:03:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting. OK, I'm not finished with this, guys. I just need to take a really quick break and then we're going to come back to it. The Huddle, with New Zealand Sotheby's International Realty, a name you can trust locally and globally. Right, you're back with The Huddle, Liam here, Oscar Kightley. Liam, you want to pick me up on something? You think I've got a fact wrong here.
00:04:14
Speaker 3: Just a little bit. So if we go back to the 2017 election... When Metiria Ture confessed to her historic, in the years past, benefit fraud, it didn't actually have a devastating effect on the Greens polling right away. In fact, actually, the Greens went up a little bit. What then happened, though, is that put a lot more pressure on Labour, because Labour were tied to the Greens, associated with it.
00:04:38
Speaker 2: That was a.
00:04:38
Speaker 3: Factor in Andrew Little resigning. Jacinda came in, and Jacinda stole all that momentum away from the Greens. That's what caused the crash. And there's a similar risk to them here with a new kid on the block, Q.A. Wong, you know, taking it to them. And if she can present a good alternative to the Greens, she's going to take votes from them.
00:04:56
Speaker 1: OK, they did, though, those two events, the Metiria Ture benefit fraud, her resigning and Jacinda taking over, were within a week of each other, weren't they? So it's probably hard to separate it out.
00:05:07
Speaker 3: They went up in the polling a little bit afterwards. Because the type of person, on the hard edge of the left, It was actually a cause to leap a little bit, you know, because I am Matilia Touré myself, you know, it was a bit like that. OK.
00:05:22
Speaker 2: In terms of the gang thing, though, in terms of this, you know, political leaders in this country have long courted them and tried to do things. And actually the first leader who really actually brought them into the mainstream for discussion was Rob Muldoon and his work with Black Power. So Rob Muldoon.
00:05:38
Speaker 3: Is not a model for anyone.
00:05:41
Speaker 2: No, no, but I'm saying it was a national leader. who first tried this. And it's been part of the election cycle ever since. And it's being beat up as being a game changer. But I don't know if it will be because a week's a long time in the news.
00:05:56
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:05:56
Speaker 1: OK, let's see what it does to the polling. Liam, is there any hope that Luxon, I mean, why does Luxon suck so much at debates?
00:06:05
Speaker 3: It's really not his forte. And it just isn't, right? Like he just It's not an actual happy hunting ground. I think as a corporate CEO, he's much more used to that more captive audience, you know, where they ask, you know, why are you so wonderful and what are the exciting things you're doing? And actually, this is one of the things where being in business doesn't necessarily get you ready for a career in politics. The contrast with Chris Hipkins is that even when Chris Hipkins on his worst day, and I don't think he did that well, like you can tell he's just skilled enough at maneuvering. He doesn't have to fall back on cliches all the time. So, Like, I actually think, actually, I thought... I was one of the ones who thought Luxon actually won it last night, so I know you don't agree with that. I thought he was much improved, but I don't think it'll ever, never be his happy hunting.
00:06:50
Speaker 1: No, not really. Hey, do you, Oscar, have, like, a grudging respect for Paul Goldsmith because he keeps turning.
00:06:56
Speaker 3: Up to these events?
00:06:58
Speaker 2: Oh, I really do. I really do. I was at the Pacific Music Awards this year, and he was there, and he's always at things, and he obviously takes... his 10 portfolios really seriously and feel that it's important. But I don't know how he expects any other response. None of the policies in the arts have kind of done anything to support the industry or garner it or celebrate it in any way. So, but I do, you know, give him a grudging respect for turning up as a minister and lending his presence to those things.
00:07:31
Speaker 1: How does he do it, Liam? Because I reckon I'd sit through about two of those and then go, oh no, bugger this, I'm not, nah, not anymore.
00:07:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. He's obviously into it. I mean, after the first couple of times, you'd think you'd.
00:07:43
Speaker 2: Learn, right?
00:07:44
Speaker 3: Because actually, I think there's very little political mileage to be gained out of it. It's just lose, lose.
00:07:49
Speaker 1: But no, but he has to turn up, doesn't he? Because if you make a decision, you have to take the criticism from people who don't like it. No, you don't.
00:07:56
Speaker 3: You can just not turn up. You've got lots of, he's got all these portfolios. There's lots of things he can be doing. And there are lots of politicians who wouldn't. Now, the only reason I can think that he would turn up is out of out of the civic duty that Oscar's giving him some grudging respect for, because it's certainly not because of any political reason. And I don't think that there's a lot of very canny politicians who would just choose not to go to those things. They would find other things to do in a busy election year.
00:08:22
Speaker 2: If he did it though, Liam, I reckon that would be the last vestige of pretending to care gone if he didn't show himself, especially at the big events.
00:08:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:08:33
Speaker 2: It would be well and truly confirmation that this government really doesn't care about these arts.
00:08:37
Speaker 1: So turning up at least is a bit of a show. Guys, it's good to talk to the pair of you. Have a lovely evening.
Speaker 1: Let us get ourselves to the huddle right now. We have Liam here, who is a lawyer and a National Party member, and Oscar Kightley, artist and local government politician. Hello, you two.
00:00:11
Speaker 2: G'day, Heather. G'day, Liam.
00:00:12
Speaker 1: Now, Oscar, tell me, how bad have the Greens made this today?
00:00:17
Speaker 2: Well, gosh, you know, one thing we do know is that you're not going to diminish or help New Zealand's gang problem by ignoring them. as we've done or by increasing punishments and i think actually one way to you know help these people leave gangs and is actually to is to get them all connected with the community and and if that takes meetings and politicians.
00:00:43
Speaker 1: In yeah but the problem just to be clear the problem is not the meeting i don't have a problem with anybody meeting with gangs that's fine Should you have a picture with the gangs and then put your fingers up, your thumbs up and go, yeah, awesome. And then the next day when you're in trouble for it, you go, and you know what, we're also going to send them some millions for the meth program and we're going to remove the gang patch ban. Is this good politics.
00:01:04
Speaker 2: Is it? A picture is such a part of the daily language of everything. It doesn't mean what it used to mean. There's Everybody has pictures with everyone, and, you know, I don't see that as.
00:01:21
Speaker 3: I don't know.
00:01:22
Speaker 1: Do you have a picture with a neo-Nazi?
00:01:25
Speaker 2: No, but I've had a.
00:01:26
Speaker 1: Why not? Everybody has pictures with everyone.
00:01:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, fair point, fair point. But, yeah, I don't know. I just think, you know, gangs... We made gangs. This country made gangs through wards of the state all these years ago, all these fraud policies, all these things like gangs.
00:01:43
Speaker 1: Some of these men, not necessarily the ones in the picture, some of these men rape women.
00:01:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, but, God, you meet church leaders and some of those, you know, some of their colleagues do awful stuff too. You know, do you punish a whole community because of the actions of some of them?
00:02:05
Speaker 1: You want to have a picture with Brian Tamaki?
00:02:08
Speaker 2: I would. Would you?
00:02:10
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would.
00:02:11
Speaker 2: I mean, I've met him, I've shaken hands with him, and I would sit down with him and try and hear what he's on about.
00:02:18
Speaker 1: Anyway, you're not the one who's got to be punished for this.
00:02:20
Speaker 2: Liam?
00:02:21
Speaker 1: How bad is this for the Greens? Like, on a scale of, you know, oh, look, old mate was stealing stuff from Scotties down the road and nothing really happened to the polls, through to materia ture, the welfare fraud, and the polls crashed. Where are we?
00:02:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really bad. I mean, I take a really different view to Oscar. I just think Look, I mean, it's very easy to romanticise and make excuses, but at the end of the day, these are organisations that are best known for extortion, for drug distribution, for rape, for murder. And time and time again, the political left gets its wool pulled over its eyes. It's like Al Capone. Al Capone had a few soup kitchens. So all of a sudden his PR goes up a little bit. But at the end of the day, these are still organisations that are fundamentally about the commission of violent crime and crime that's within the vulnerable communities that people claim to care about. But the real reason it's a problem for the Greens right now is that at the moment, as of the debate a couple of nights ago, you saw the Opportunity Party really starting to take it to the Greens, to contest the Greens. for that type of environmentally conscious young person vote. And they were very strong on saying, right, we actually completely reject this idea that gangs are a legitimate part of the political discussion, a legitimate part of the political community. And again, so at a time when the Greens are reading high, they're actually opening themselves up to lose votes to the Opportunity Party in particular over this issue.
00:03:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting. OK, I'm not finished with this, guys. I just need to take a really quick break and then we're going to come back to it. The Huddle, with New Zealand Sotheby's International Realty, a name you can trust locally and globally. Right, you're back with The Huddle, Liam here, Oscar Kightley. Liam, you want to pick me up on something? You think I've got a fact wrong here.
00:04:14
Speaker 3: Just a little bit. So if we go back to the 2017 election... When Metiria Ture confessed to her historic, in the years past, benefit fraud, it didn't actually have a devastating effect on the Greens polling right away. In fact, actually, the Greens went up a little bit. What then happened, though, is that put a lot more pressure on Labour, because Labour were tied to the Greens, associated with it.
00:04:38
Speaker 2: That was a.
00:04:38
Speaker 3: Factor in Andrew Little resigning. Jacinda came in, and Jacinda stole all that momentum away from the Greens. That's what caused the crash. And there's a similar risk to them here with a new kid on the block, Q.A. Wong, you know, taking it to them. And if she can present a good alternative to the Greens, she's going to take votes from them.
00:04:56
Speaker 1: OK, they did, though, those two events, the Metiria Ture benefit fraud, her resigning and Jacinda taking over, were within a week of each other, weren't they? So it's probably hard to separate it out.
00:05:07
Speaker 3: They went up in the polling a little bit afterwards. Because the type of person, on the hard edge of the left, It was actually a cause to leap a little bit, you know, because I am Matilia Touré myself, you know, it was a bit like that. OK.
00:05:22
Speaker 2: In terms of the gang thing, though, in terms of this, you know, political leaders in this country have long courted them and tried to do things. And actually the first leader who really actually brought them into the mainstream for discussion was Rob Muldoon and his work with Black Power. So Rob Muldoon.
00:05:38
Speaker 3: Is not a model for anyone.
00:05:41
Speaker 2: No, no, but I'm saying it was a national leader. who first tried this. And it's been part of the election cycle ever since. And it's being beat up as being a game changer. But I don't know if it will be because a week's a long time in the news.
00:05:56
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:05:56
Speaker 1: OK, let's see what it does to the polling. Liam, is there any hope that Luxon, I mean, why does Luxon suck so much at debates?
00:06:05
Speaker 3: It's really not his forte. And it just isn't, right? Like he just It's not an actual happy hunting ground. I think as a corporate CEO, he's much more used to that more captive audience, you know, where they ask, you know, why are you so wonderful and what are the exciting things you're doing? And actually, this is one of the things where being in business doesn't necessarily get you ready for a career in politics. The contrast with Chris Hipkins is that even when Chris Hipkins on his worst day, and I don't think he did that well, like you can tell he's just skilled enough at maneuvering. He doesn't have to fall back on cliches all the time. So, Like, I actually think, actually, I thought... I was one of the ones who thought Luxon actually won it last night, so I know you don't agree with that. I thought he was much improved, but I don't think it'll ever, never be his happy hunting.
00:06:50
Speaker 1: No, not really. Hey, do you, Oscar, have, like, a grudging respect for Paul Goldsmith because he keeps turning.
00:06:56
Speaker 3: Up to these events?
00:06:58
Speaker 2: Oh, I really do. I really do. I was at the Pacific Music Awards this year, and he was there, and he's always at things, and he obviously takes... his 10 portfolios really seriously and feel that it's important. But I don't know how he expects any other response. None of the policies in the arts have kind of done anything to support the industry or garner it or celebrate it in any way. So, but I do, you know, give him a grudging respect for turning up as a minister and lending his presence to those things.
00:07:31
Speaker 1: How does he do it, Liam? Because I reckon I'd sit through about two of those and then go, oh no, bugger this, I'm not, nah, not anymore.
00:07:37
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. He's obviously into it. I mean, after the first couple of times, you'd think you'd.
00:07:43
Speaker 2: Learn, right?
00:07:44
Speaker 3: Because actually, I think there's very little political mileage to be gained out of it. It's just lose, lose.
00:07:49
Speaker 1: But no, but he has to turn up, doesn't he? Because if you make a decision, you have to take the criticism from people who don't like it. No, you don't.
00:07:56
Speaker 3: You can just not turn up. You've got lots of, he's got all these portfolios. There's lots of things he can be doing. And there are lots of politicians who wouldn't. Now, the only reason I can think that he would turn up is out of out of the civic duty that Oscar's giving him some grudging respect for, because it's certainly not because of any political reason. And I don't think that there's a lot of very canny politicians who would just choose not to go to those things. They would find other things to do in a busy election year.
00:08:22
Speaker 2: If he did it though, Liam, I reckon that would be the last vestige of pretending to care gone if he didn't show himself, especially at the big events.
00:08:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:08:33
Speaker 2: It would be well and truly confirmation that this government really doesn't care about these arts.
00:08:37
Speaker 1: So turning up at least is a bit of a show. Guys, it's good to talk to the pair of you. Have a lovely evening.
